Do animals dream? And if they do, what does it reveal about their minds, and our moral responsibilities toward them?

In this episode of the ASF Podcast, host Tanja Janko speaks with philosopher and author David Peña-Guzmán, whose book When Animals Dream explores the emotional, cognitive, and ethical dimensions of animal dreaming.

In this conversation, we unpack why dreaming is not just a human phenomenon, how animals’ dreams challenge our definitions of consciousness, and why dreams might be a powerful argument for animal rights.

Topics include:

• The SAM model of consciousness: Subjective, Affective, Metacognitive
• Wittgenstein’s lion and the limits of human-centered thinking
• Lucid dreams in animals (and why that might change everything)
• Why dreaming is a sufficient condition for consciousness
• The deep ethical implications for how we treat non-human animals

Time stamps:

00:00 Intro

01:20 How David Became Interested in Animal Dreaming

06:10 Challenges of Studying Dreams (Especially in Animals)

• Why dream research is difficult even in humans
• Methodological limits 

13:30 Zebra Finches Dreaming of Songs

• Rats dream of mazes, but zebra finches rehearse their songs during REM sleep
• Challenged the view that dreaming is exclusive to mammals
• These birds move their throats as if silently singing while activating auditory + motor brain regions, suggests conscious rehearsal, not just unconscious memory consolidation

22:02 Dreams Require an Ego

• All dreams are subjectively anchored, there is always a “dream ego”
• Even if your dream body morphs (tentacles, flying, shrinking), you still have a perspective
• This implies animals who dream likely have a subjective point of view, or a self

28:50 The SAM Model of Consciousness

• Subjective: Ego/self-awareness
• Affective: Emotional experiences
• Metacognitive: Thinking about one’s own thoughts

39:50 Is thought fundamentally linguistic?

• Dreaming joins language, emotion, tool-use as once “unique” human traits

46:25 Wittgenstein’s Lion & “Philosophical Monsters”

• The idea of a non-conscious dreamer is a contradiction
• Dreaming is a lived, subjective experience = proof of consciousness
• Dreaming = sufficient (but not necessary) condition for consciousness

52:00 Dreams and Moral Status

• Consciousness is the foundation of moral concern, therefore animals who dream are conscious → they matter morally

1:09:00 Outro - Book recommendations

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