In this fifth episode, Tony talks with Elaine Kamarck of the Brookings Institution and the Harvard Kennedy School of Government. A founding director of the Clinton administration's National Performance Review, she makes a case for reforming rather than abandoning the administrative state by improving Congressional oversight, making agencies more efficient, and clarifying what we think the federal government should and should not be doing in the first place. Their discussion touches on the erosion of congressional power, civil service reform, and the impact of technology on the federal bureaucracy.