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Episode Transcript (by TK @_torkz)

[Upbeat Ukulele Intro Music]This is We Make Books, a podcast about writing publishing and everything in between. Rekka is a published Science Fiction and Fantasy author, and Kaelyn is a professional genre fiction editor. Together, they'll tackle the things you never knew you never knew about getting a book from concept to finished product, with explanations, examples, and a lot of laughter. Get your moleskin notebook ready. It's time for We Make Books.

Kaelyn: So it’s funny you picked this when I was still studying history, that was something we always had to consider. Is this group, is this person part of determining where they fit into historical context as determining do they have agency? Can they act on their own behalf? Structure is what keeps someone in place; agency is what allows them to act freely.

Rekka: Where would you put Odysseus, in this context?

K: I would make Odysseus a failed attempt at agency.

R: [laughing]

K: Well, maybe failed agency isn’t the right--because he is displaying agency. He’s trying to do something, and he’s having to frequently overcome obstacles. That said, those obstacles are things that keep happening to him, rather than him directly engaging.

R: Right.

K: So it’s a little bit of a, uh.

R: Weird example.

K: No it was a good one, I liked it.

R: No it’s a good example but it’s not a good role model for agency in your novels.

K: Odysseus isn’t a good role model for a lot of reasons.

R [laughing]: That’s just one of them.

K: [laughing]

R: Be the person who ties yourself to the mast, rather than give in to the sirens. Actually fuck it, give in to the sirens. It’s 2021, let’s just go for it.

K [laughing]: That’s a very bad--I feel like 2020 was the year to give into the sirens. [laughing]

R: Yeah, but what is 2021 but 2020 persevering?

K: No, we’re slowly defeating it. We’re claiming some agency for ourselves.

R: I am still in this room.

K: [laughing]

R: I have always been in this room. How are we defeating anything?

K: I think I was born in this room.

R: Kaelyn, have you and I met for smoked meats in a restaurant?

K: We haven’t.

R: Right. So, nothing has changed.

K: Yeah.

R: Have we hung out in a library with random strangers at the same table?

K: No. Some of whom are handwriting books.

R: Yeah, no. This is not happening. So today I called you here to talk about agency.

K: So in that scenario do I have agency? Because I made the decision to join you. But--

R: But--are you allowing this topic to happen? Or are you actively engaging in the expression of our ideas?

K: Oh both.

R: [laughing]

K: Definitely.

R: Once you get past some of the other, like, identify your theme, and helpful advice for writing like that--

K: Strengthen this character arc, you know, the really nice vague feedback.

R: The really helpful, helpful specific feedback. You might also end up hearing that your character needs more agency in a scene, or in the story overall. And as with the others, this can be really helpful advice. If you know what it means.

K: Yeah um, it I think falls into the category of frustratingly vague advice that is absolutely rooted in important context.

R: But it’s also really true.

K: Yes, yeah.

R: Which is just the worst part. There’s nothing worse than vague advice that is also correct.

K: It is vague advice, but I think when you’re dealing with things like ‘work on your character’s agency,’ ‘strengthen this arc,’ ‘identify the themes in your story,’ those are big picture things. So. Definition—as always love to start off with that—uh, agency in general, the definition is “an a