In this episode of Everyday Conversations on Race, host Simma Lieberman welcomes Verna Williams, CEO of Equal Justice Works, former law professor, and former dean, for a powerful conversation about race, justice, and access to legal representation in America.

Verna explains why race remains a necessary topic—not to assign personal blame, but to understand how systems shaped by slavery and segregation continue to influence opportunity and social hierarchy today.

She reflects on growing up in the Washington, DC and Maryland area, attending both predominantly white and predominantly Black schools. Those experiences sharpened her awareness of being "different" and highlighted how segregated many of our lives still are. Even today, she encounters moments when someone tells her she is the first Black person they've had a meaningful conversation with—evidence of how separation persists.

As CEO of Equal Justice Works—the nation's largest postgraduate public-interest legal fellowship program—Verna works to address a staggering reality: 92% of low-income people's civil legal needs go unmet. She explains how civil legal problems such as eviction, wage garnishment, loss of benefits, and family instability create economic insecurity and can even lead to involvement in the criminal legal system. Unlike criminal cases, there is no guaranteed right to counsel in high-stakes civil matters, leaving millions to navigate life-altering situations alone.

Verna describes how Equal Justice Works partners with law firms, corporations, and foundations to fund fellowships that send lawyers into underserved communities. She highlights the organization's Disaster Resilience Program, created after Hurricane Katrina, which helps communities navigate FEMA claims, insurance issues, document replacement, and preparedness planning.

She also shares her personal journey—from broadcast journalism to law—motivated by fairness and shaped by the civil rights and women's rights movements. Her career has included work on voting rights, women's rights, veterans' benefits, and debt collection reform. She also argued—and won—a 5–4 U.S. Supreme Court case establishing that schools must address known student-on-student sexual harassment under Title IX.

The conversation explores immigration representation, reports of ICE detentions at court hearings, and practical ways non-lawyers can help—through translation, court accompaniment, and local volunteer efforts. Verna encourages listeners to stay informed through reputable sources, vote, and engage locally in school boards and city councils.

She also shares personal reflections on music and film—and clarifies her role as Michelle Obama's oral historian during the early White House years, after the two were law school classmates.

This episode connects race, law, and economic justice—and offers clear examples of how everyday engagement can strengthen democracy.

Time Stamps 00:00 Welcome to Race Convo: Why These Conversations Matter 00:58 Meet Verna Williams + The Big Question: Do We Still Need to Talk About Race? 02:16 Race as a Social Hierarchy: How History Still Shapes Today 03:54 Growing Up Integrated: Verna's Schools, Identity, and Feeling 'Different' 05:15 Segregation in Real Life: 'First Black Person I've Talked To' + Why the Podcast Exists 08:04 What Equal Justice Works Does: Closing the Civil Legal Help Gap 09:52 Why Verna Chose Justice Work: Early Racism, Fairness, and Civil Rights Roots 12:29 Civil vs. Criminal: The Hidden Crisis of No Right to Counsel 17:50 How Equal Justice Works Operates: Fellowships, Funding, and Disaster Resilience 21:00 Verna's Career Path + Arguing a Landmark Title IX Case at the Supreme Court 25:42 Keeping Progress Moving Forward: Training the Next Generation of Public Interest Leaders 26:30 Making Public Interest Careers Possible: Loan Forgiveness & Funding Support 27:31 Why This Work Matters: Building Leaders Through Equal Justice Works 28:46 Training for Empathy: Community-Led Lawyering & Fellow Learning Networks 30:16 Immigrant Justice on the Front Lines: Asylum, ICE at Court & Finding Hope 32:28 How Non-Lawyers Can Help: Volunteering, Translating & Getting Involved 34:11 Where to Plug In: EJW, Legal Services Corp & Other Advocacy Orgs 37:11 Staying Hopeful: History, Collective Action & Cross-Political Coalitions 43:51 Michelle Obama Connection: Serving as Her Oral Historian 45:26 Rapid-Fire Fun: Playlists, Oscar Movies & What to Watch Next 47:43 Final Call to Action: Get Informed, Vote Local & Show Up

Guest Bio

Verna L. Williams (she/her) is the CEO of Equal Justice Works. In her role as CEO, Verna has continued to advance the mission of Equal Justice Works to create opportunities for leaders to transform their passion for equal justice into a lifelong commitment to public service.

Verna brings with her an extensive background of experience teaching and practicing law, as well as researching civil and women's rights. Verna previously served as the dean of the University of Cincinnati College of Law, where she was a professor prior to becoming dean, and taught courses on family law, gender discrimination, and constitutional law. Additionally, she founded and co-directed the Judge Nathaniel Jones Center for Race, Gender, and Social Justice at the University of Cincinnati.

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All donations are tax deductible through Fractured Atlas.

Simma Lieberman, The Inclusionist, helps leaders create inclusive cultures. She is a consultant, speaker, and facilitator. Simma is the creator and host of the podcast, Everyday Conversations on Race.

Contact [email protected] to get more information, book her as a speaker for your next event, help you become a more inclusive leader, or facilitate dialogues across differences.

Go to www.simmalieberman.com and www.raceconvo.com for more information

Simma is a member of and inspired by the global organization IAC (Inclusion Allies Coalition)

Connect with me:

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Previous Episodes

Can Women of Color and White Women Be Friends? What Was DEI Actually Meant to Do—and Why Did It Go Off Track? Curiosity, Not Cancellation: Real Talk with Dr. Julie Pham Loved this episode? Leave us a review and rating

From Fear to Friendship: The 30-Year Journey of an Interracial Women's Circle

What does it really take for women across race, identity, and experience to move from awkward conversations to real friendship?

In this episode, I talk with two people I deeply respect—Julie O'Mara and Dr. Sid Reel—about a women's circle I'm part of that's been meeting for nearly 30 years. What started as a conference breakout session turned into something far more rare: a space where white women and women of color stayed in relationship through grief, anger, mistakes, growth, and joy.

We talk about confidentiality and why it matters. About staying at the table when things get uncomfortable. About what happens when people don't feel alone anymore. And about the difference between talking about race and actually knowing people whose lives are shaped by it.

This isn't theory. It's lived experience. And it's a reminder that real connection doesn't come from slogans or training slides—it comes from time, trust, and being willing to keep showing up.

We share raw, transformative experiences that took us from initial fear and distrust to deep, meaningful friendships. The episode explores the group's origins, the critical role of confidentiality, and the hard truths they've confronted about race, privilege, and solidarity. You'll learn the challenges and rewards of having tough conversations about race and how these led to profound support and solidarity during life's toughest moments.

Timestamps & Key Segments:

00:00 Introduction and Podcast Overview

01:10 Meet the Guests: Julie O'Mara and Dr. Sid Real

04:45 The Women's Circle: Origins and Purpose

12:38 Confidentiality and Trust Building

20:02 Personal Stories and Experiences

27:54 Challenges and Learnings in DEI

35:50 Standing Up and Women's Circle Support

36:57 Building Comfort and Social Connections

38:26 Shared Experiences and Mutual Support

41:33 Assumptions and Learning Moments

54:00 Starting and Sustaining a Circle

01:01:12 Final Thoughts and Contact Information

Guest Bio:Julie O'Mara is coauthor of the free Global Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion Benchmarks (GDEIB): Standards for Organizations Around the world along with Alan Richter, PhD, and Nene Molefi. It is available in English, French and Spanish and it and several free User Tools and other resources may be downloaded for free at www.GlobalDEIBenchmarks.org

Dr. Sidalia (Sid) Reel recently retired as Director of Staff Diversity Initiatives in Berkeley's Equity & Inclusion Division. Charged with implementing programs and policies to foster an inclusive and welcoming work environment, she co-founded the Next Opportunity at Work Conference; managed the campus-wide Multicultural Education Program; and consulted with departments and teams on equity and inclusion topics. She is a recipient of both an individual and a team Chancellor's Outstanding Staff Award for these efforts. Prior to UC Berkeley, she spent over 20 years leading corporate global diversity and inclusion organizations. A Berkeley native, she earned an EdD at USC, an EdM at Harvard, and a BA in Sociology at Scripps.

Click here to DONATE and support our podcast

All donations are tax deductible through Fractured Atlas.

Simma Lieberman, The Inclusionist, helps leaders create inclusive cultures. She is a consultant, speaker, and facilitator. Simma is the creator and host of the podcast, Everyday Conversations on Race.

Contact [email protected] to get more information, book her as a speaker for your next event, help you become a more inclusive leader, or facilitate dialogues across differences.

Go to www.simmalieberman.com and www.raceconvo.com for more information

Simma is a member of and inspired by the global organization IAC (Inclusion Allies Coalition)

Connect with me:

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Previous Episodes

What Was DEI Actually Meant to Do—and Why Did It Go Off Track? Curiosity, Not Cancellation: Real Talk with Dr. Julie Pham Voices of Triumph: Stories of African Women Immigrants in America Loved this episode? Leave us a review and rating

A Conversation with Joe Santana; a DEI original

Would you agree that most conversations about DEI today sound loud, polarized, and disconnected from the work itself?

In this episode of Everyday Conversations on Race, I talk with Joe Santana—advisor, author, and long-time DEI consultant—about where Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion actually came from and how it was originally practiced inside organizations.

What really is DEI, (Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion)?

Joe and I have both spent decades doing this work. We've watched DEI evolve, get renamed, repackaged, misunderstood, and in some cases quietly dismantled. What often gets lost is that DEI didn't start as a political position. It started as a business conversation—about how organizations function, how people are evaluated, and how talent is either used or ignored.

What is the business case for DEI? Why are people still talking about diversity, equity, and inclusion?

The early thinking behind DEI and why it mattered to organizational performance How good intentions gave way to vague language and inconsistent practice What happens when leaders avoid difference instead of learning how to work with it Why "treating everyone the same" sounds fair but rarely works How Employee and Business Resource Groups can either matter—or miss the point entirely

This is a grounded conversation between two practitioners reflecting on what we've learned, what we got wrong, and what still holds value—especially for leaders trying to make sense of the current moment.

You'll learn more about the challenges, and strategic importance of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) in organizations. From the historical context provided by pioneers like Roosevelt Thomas to practical advice on optimizing business outcomes, Joe shares a wealth of knowledge on how DEI can drive both social good and financial success in companies. The episode also covers the vital role of Employee Resource Groups (ERGs) and what organizations can do to leverage them effectively. You'll gain valuable insights on turning DEI initiatives into strategic business tools.

If you're looking for clarity instead of slogans, and experience instead of soundbites, you'll find it in this episode.

Guest Bio

Joseph (Joe) Santana is a business strategy coach and futurist specializing in developing CDOs, ERG/BRG leaders, and Executive Sponsors who drive measurable business impact. He is an author, keynote speaker, and member of the Forbes Business Council and the Fast Company Executive Board and a frequent contributor to articles in both organizations' magazines. His insights and ideas have been shared globally in interviews with media outlets such as ABC, PIX, Fox, Ticker News, and The Black List, a streaming business interview show. His two most recent books, "The New DEI and ERG Frontier" and "SuperCharge Your ERGs," are available on Amazon, offering invaluable guidance to those ready to embark on the journey toward 21st-century business-impacting success. As CEO of Joseph Santana, LLC, an Inc Verified company, he leads multiple brands focused on equipping CDOs and ERG/BRG Chairs in national and global enterprises with the skills and strategies needed to enhance organizational performance. Below is a graphic depiction of the brands owned by Joseph Santana, LLC.

Click here to DONATE and support our podcast

All donations are tax deductible through Fractured Atlas.

Simma Lieberman, The Inclusionist, helps leaders create inclusive cultures. She is a consultant, speaker, and facilitator. Simma is the creator and host of the podcast, Everyday Conversations on Race.

Contact [email protected] to get more information, book her as a speaker for your next event, help you become a more inclusive leader, or facilitate dialogues across differences.

Go to www.simmalieberman.com and www.raceconvo.com for more information

Simma is a member of and inspired by the global organization IAC (Inclusion Allies Coalition)

Connect with me:

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Previous Episodes

Curiosity, Not Cancellation: Real Talk with Dr. Julie Pham Voices of Triumph: Stories of African Women Immigrants in America Black Health Matters: Community, Data, and the Journey to Wellness with Kwame Terra Loved this episode? Leave us a review and rating

What happens when curiosity replaces fear? In this powerful and honest conversation, Simma Lieberman and Dr. Julie Pham, author of "7 Forms of Respect: A Guide to Transforming Your Communication and Relationships at Work", explore how curiosity helps us talk about race, identity, and respect without shame or defensiveness. They remind us that inclusion begins with wonder—and that respect isn't fixed, it's alive.

Simma and Dr. Julie Pham dive into the idea of curiosity as a practice—a mindset we can bring to every interaction. They discuss how we each hold multiple identities, why respect feels different to everyone, and how the "rubber band rule" teaches self-awareness and boundaries. Together, they model how curiosity—not cancellation—creates space for growth, empathy, and laughter.

Dr. Pham shares her journey from running her family's Vietnamese newspaper in Seattle to becoming an expert on curiosity-based inclusion. Simma reflects on her experiences as a Bronx-raised Jewish woman building bridges across race and culture. Their exchange reminds listeners that real connection begins when we listen to understand, not to judge.

[00:10:00 — The Practice of Curiosity] Julie describes curiosity as a practice, not a trait, requiring awareness and humility. They discuss how fear of being wrong blocks learning and how curiosity turns awkward moments into opportunities for respect.

[00:15:00 — Respect as Relationship, Not Rule] They unpack how "respect" looks different across people and cultures. Julie introduces her framework from Seven Forms of Respect and shares how she helps organizations talk openly about what respect means to them.

[00:20:00 — Cultural Assumptions and Adaptation] Simma and Julie discuss regional and cultural communication styles—New York directness vs. West Coast politeness—and how adapting behavior is a form of respect, not inauthenticity.

[00:25:00 — Curiosity vs. Cancel Culture] Simma raises the issue of "you should know" attitudes in DEI work. Julie explains why she rejects cancel culture and instead promotes dialogue and forgiveness as pathways to inclusion.

[00:30:00 — The Rubber Band Rule] Julie explains her Rubber Band Rule: we all stretch for others, but when we over-stretch, we snap. Respect, she says, is relative, contextual, and dynamic—it shifts with relationships, workplaces, and personal growth.

[00:35:00 — Learning from Difference] Simma shares stories from her life and work about learning from cross-cultural friendships and experiences in holistic health. Both reflect on how curiosity helped them challenge stereotypes and assumptions.

[00:40:00 — Evolving Through Curiosity] They discuss how curiosity helps us evolve—our identities, habits, and relationships are always changing. Julie highlights that curiosity is lifelong learning, not a one-time skill.

[00:45:00 — From Outrage to Understanding] Julie and Simma emphasize moving beyond outrage to curiosity. They share stories about being misjudged and how asking questions transforms conflict into connection.

[00:48:00 — Closing Reflections: Self-Respect and Connection] Julie closes with her final message: respect isn't fixed; it changes with context. Simma thanks her for the powerful conversation, reiterates the importance of curiosity, and invites listeners to stay engaged.

Guest Bio

Dr. Julie Pham is the founder of CuriosityBased, a leadership development organization that helps people build trust and collaboration through curiosity. She is the author of Seven Forms of Respect and a TEDx speaker whose work challenges how we define and show respect in our daily lives. Find her at CuriosityBased.com or on LinkedIn (@JuliePhamPhD).

Click here to DONATE and support our podcast

All donations are tax deductible through Fractured Atlas.

Simma Lieberman, The Inclusionist, helps leaders create inclusive cultures. She is a consultant, speaker, and facilitator. Simma is the creator and host of the podcast, Everyday Conversations on Race.

Contact [email protected] to get more information, book her as a speaker for your next event, help you become a more inclusive leader, or facilitate dialogues across differences.

Go to www.simmalieberman.com and www.raceconvo.com for more information

Simma is a member of and inspired by the global organization IAC (Inclusion Allies Coalition)

Connect with me:

Instagram Facebook YouTube Twitter LinkedIn Tiktok Website

Previous Episodes

Voices of Triumph: Stories of African Women Immigrants in America Black Health Matters: Community, Data, and the Journey to Wellness with Kwame Terra What Might Be: Friendship, Race, and Transforming Power Loved this episode? Leave us a review and rating

Join Simma, the Inclusionist, as she hosts an illuminating conversation with Dr. Nneka and Dr. Angela, two Nigerian-born, U.S.-based doctors and authors. They discuss their empowering book, 'Voices of Triumph: Stories of African Women Immigrants in America,' which chronicles challenges and triumphs faced by African women immigrants. Delve into personal anecdotes of overcoming adversity, the significance of community, cultural impact, and the importance of recognizing self-worth. This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in bridging cultural divides and celebrating resilience.

00:00 Introduction and Podcast Overview

01:09 Meet the Guests: Nigerian Doctors and Authors

02:08 The Journey of Writing 'Voices of Triumph'

03:10 Challenges and Triumphs of Immigrant Women

07:03 Navigating Workplace Politics and Racism

20:41 Microaggressions and Imposter Syndrome

26:35 Embracing Identity and Overcoming Adversity

28:52 The Power of Community

32:03 Embracing Technology and Overcoming Fear

37:33 Cultural Impact and Responsibilities

47:05 Balancing Cultural Expectations and Self-Care

50:39 Empowerment and Resilience

53:17 Final Thoughts and Contact Information

Guest Bio:Dr. Angela Ikeme holds a Doctor of Nursing Practice degree from the University of San Francisco in Executive Leadership, a Master's in Nursing Education Degree from Grand Canyon University, and a Bachelor of Nursing Science degree from the University of Phoenix. She is a Nurse Executive Board Certified. She holds a California Registered Nurse Licence, has spent over 30 years in clinical and administrative nursing, and is a professor at the University of San Francisco, California. She has spent most of her career advocating for high-quality education for nurses and ensuring that nurses provide evidence-based, high-quality, and safe patient care. She is a compassionate, passionate, transformational leader, an advocate for equity and social justice, a mentor, and an entrepreneur. Dr. Angela is an enthusiastic and authentic leader with a strong passion for respect for others. She is committed to building community through partnership and collaboration, hence her love and commitment to providing high-quality nursing education to students at Merit College of Nursing Sciences Orlu, Imo State, Nigeria, where she is a co-founder and the Executive Provost of the school. Dr. Nneka Chukwu holds a Doctoral Degree in Nursing with an emphasis in Healthcare Systems Leadership, a Master's degree in Business Administration, a certification as an Advanced Nurse Executive, and a certification as a Legal Nurse Consultant. She has over 20 years of experience in the healthcare industry, including Maternal Child Health, Critical Care, Leadership, Academia, and Quality/Risk Management. Dr. Nneka is currently the Director of Women and Children's Services and an Adjunct Faculty in the University of San Francisco Graduate Nursing Program. She is a published author, a mentor, a motivational speaker at the local and international level, and a seasoned leader who is well-versed in developing programs, leading projects, and team building.

Click here to DONATE and support our podcast

All donations are tax deductible through Fractured Atlas.

Simma Lieberman, The Inclusionist, helps leaders create inclusive cultures. She is a consultant, speaker, and facilitator. Simma is the creator and host of the podcast, Everyday Conversations on Race.

Contact [email protected] to get more information, book her as a speaker for your next event, help you become a more inclusive leader, or facilitate dialogues across differences.

Go to www.simmalieberman.com and www.raceconvo.com for more information

Simma is a member of and inspired by the global organization IAC (Inclusion Allies Coalition)

Connect with me:

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Previous Episodes

Black Health Matters: Community, Data, and the Journey to Wellness with Kwame Terra What Might Be: Friendship, Race, and Transforming Power Global DEI: Apartheid to Equity Loved this episode? Leave us a review and rating

How do we close the health gap in Black communities? In this episode, Simma Lieberman ("The Inclusionist") talks with bEHR Health founder Kwame Terra about the urgent need for health equity, the power of community, and the real stories behind the statistics. From breaking world records to building a movement, this conversation will challenge, inspire, and empower you.

Timestamps & Key Segments:00:00 – Introduction: Why Black Health Matters 02:15 – Meet Kwame Terra: From Runner to Health Equity Leader 07:30 – The Shocking Truth About Health Disparities 15:00 – bEHR Health: Using Data and Community to Drive Change 22:45 – Real Stories: Walking Clubs, World Records, and Transformation 31:10 – Food, Motivation, and Changing Habits 38:00 – The Power of Community Support 45:20 – How You Can Get Involved and Make a Difference 50:00 – Closing Thoughts: Hope, Action, and the Future of Black Health

Why Listen?

● Learn what's really behind the life expectancy gap—and what you can do about it.

● Hear how bEHR Health is helping people walk off medication and reclaim their lives.

● Get practical tips for building healthy habits and finding support.

● Be part of a movement that's changing the narrative on Black health.

Guest Bio:Kwame Terra is the founder and CEO of bEHR Health, a platform dedicated to closing the health gap in Black communities through technology, education, and collective action. A former collegiate runner and passionate advocate for health equity, Kwame is on a mission to help everyone live longer, healthier lives.

Click here to DONATE and support our podcast

All donations are tax deductible through Fractured Atlas.

Simma Lieberman, The Inclusionist, helps leaders create inclusive cultures. She is a consultant, speaker, and facilitator. Simma is the creator and host of the podcast, Everyday Conversations on Race.

Contact [email protected] to get more information, book her as a speaker for your next event, help you become a more inclusive leader, or facilitate dialogues across differences.

Go to www.simmalieberman.com and www.raceconvo.com for more information

Simma is a member of and inspired by the global organization IAC (Inclusion Allies Coalition)

Connect with me:

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Previous Episodes

Global DEI: Apartheid to Equity Navigating Race, Mental Health and Well-being in Corporate America How Racist Competency Checks Prevent Merit-Based Hiring Loved this episode? Leave us a review and rating

How Two Legal Changemakers Are Redefining Leadership, Collaboration, and Racial Justice in a Divided World

In this episode of Everyday Conversations on Race, Simma Lieberman is joined by Professor Susan Sturm of Columbia Law School, and community change agent Richard Gray of the Center for Collaborative Education. These longtime collaborators talk candidly about their friendship across race, the evolution of their leadership work, and how confronting racism means more than just talking about it.

They explore how white people can genuinely show up in racial justice work, the difference between performative allyship and real connection, and the need for inclusive institutional change—especially when that change is under attack. Together, they break down the core themes from Susan's book What Might Be: Confronting Racism to Transform Our Institutions.

You'll hear stories of personal transformation, resistance against performative politics, and lessons in building multiracial and multigenerational coalitions. Whether you're an advocate, educator, or someone struggling with how to take meaningful action, this conversation is for you.

Timestamps: 1:10 – Why these conversations matter now more than ever 3:45 – Meet Professor Susan Sturm and Richard Gray 8:10 – How Susan and Richard met and started collaborating 14:30 – Real friendship across race: beyond credentials 20:10 – Susan on being a white person who "meant well" but needed to unlearn 26:45 – Richard on redefining what it means to be a lawyer for social justice 33:00 – "Hanging out while white" — how not to be awkward or performative 36:20 – What What Might Be really means, and how to act in paradox 43:00 – Institutions, white comfort, and what transformation should look like 52:00 – Micro-spaces of justice: how change happens when the law falls short 59:40 – What each of us can do now (no matter who we are)

Guest Information:

Susan Sturm is the George M. Jaffin Professor of Law & Social Responsibility at Columbia Law School and the Founding Director of the Center for Institutional and Social Change. Her new book, What Might Be: Confronting Racism to Transform Our Institutions, explores the paradoxes built into anti-racism work and how to turn them into drivers of learning and change. It provides strategies for staying engaged in this work amidst the challenging conditions we now face.

Richard Gray serves as director of AISR's Community Organizing & Engagement team. His work includes providing strategic support on community organizing and engagement to community and school reform organizations in cities across the country.

He also directs AISR's Center for Education Organizing, which helps expand the power of education organizing through building strategic alliances among organizations and with strategic partners such as teachers' unions, reform support organizations, civil rights organizations, and research and policy institutes.

Click here to DONATE and support our podcast

All donations are tax deductible through Fractured Atlas.

Simma Lieberman, The Inclusionist, helps leaders create inclusive cultures. She is a consultant, speaker, and facilitator. Simma is the creator and host of the podcast, Everyday Conversations on Race.

Contact [email protected] to get more information, book her as a speaker for your next event, help you become a more inclusive leader, or facilitate dialogues across differences.

Go to www.simmalieberman.com and www.raceconvo.com for more information

Simma is a member of and inspired by the global organization IAC (Inclusion Allies Coalition)

Connect with me:

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Previous Episodes

Global DEI: Apartheid to Equity Navigating Race, Mental Health and Well-being in Corporate America How Racist Competency Checks Prevent Merit-Based Hiring Loved this episode? Leave us a review and rating

In this episode of Everyday Conversations on Race, Simma Lieberman, The Inclusionist, is joined by two incredible global Diversity, Equity and Inclusion experts: Michaël Stuber, the European DEI Engineer, and Nene Molefi, founder of Mandate Molefi HR Consultants in South Africa. While the focus of this episode is on the global Diversity, Equity and Inclusion landscape, it's also a deeply personal conversation about their journeys, the challenges they've faced, and how their backgrounds have shaped their approach to diversity, equity, and inclusion.

As we explore how Diversity, Equity and Inclusion initiatives differ across countries, Michaël and Nene share their unique personal experiences—from Michaël's upbringing in a family where cultural diversity was the norm, to Nene's harrowing memories of growing up in the midst of apartheid in South Africa. These personal stories are woven into the conversation, bringing a human element to the Diversity, Equity and Inclusion discussion that goes beyond theories and strategies.

Detailed Time Stamps:

• [00:00] Introduction to Simma and the guests
• [04:30] Michael Stuber shares how his diverse upbringing shaped his perspective on DEI
• [07:00] Nene talks about growing up during apartheid in South Africa and the 1976 uprisings
• [12:00] The impact of apartheid on Nene's personal and professional journey
• [16:00] Michaël's early experiences with Diversity, Equity and Inclusion work and the importance of a European context
• [21:45] The role of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in shaping Michaël's understanding of DEI
• [26:30] Nene discusses her experience in developing South Africa's Employment Equity Act and its legacy
• [32:15] Challenges and growth in Diversity, Equity and Inclusion work across South Africa and Europe
• [37:00] Michaël reflects on the global DEI landscape and adapting U.S.-based DEI concepts for Europe
• [42:00] The importance of systemic change in Diversity, Equity and Inclusion: addressing structures, not just attitudes
• [47:15] Current challenges in DEI: nationalistic movements and the regression of progress
• [52:30] The personal impact of the global political climate on DEI work
• [57:00] Nene and Michaël discuss the shifting attitudes towards Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion, and the need for integrity and truth-telling
• [01:02:30] Closing remarks: The importance of global perspectives in DEI and continuing the conversation

This isn't just about Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion; it's about understanding the deep-rooted histories that influence how we work, relate, and view one another today. Michaël and Nene's personal stories and shared wisdom will help you see Diversity, Equity and Inclusion not just as a corporate or political issue, but a human one.

Key Takeaways:

1. Diversity, Equity and Inclusion is about more than just policies—it's about understanding personal and cultural histories that shape our worldviews.
2. Real change in DEI requires confronting deep-rooted systems of oppression, as demonstrated by Nene's experience in apartheid and Michaël's work in Europe.
3. Effective DEI strategies must be rooted in listening, respect, and understanding of the complex histories that shape people's lives.

Guest Information:

Michael Stuber is The European D&I Engineer – a brand based on his evidence-based yet activist-driven and strategically organized approach DEI. In the late 1990s, he initiated the first EMEA-based DE&I research to build a European perspective. As an advisor to US multinationals, he helped adapt American D&I strategies to EMEA realities. His Propelling Performance Principle makes inclusiveness a consistent business contribution, while his models of unconscious biases or inclusive leadership create traction across industries.

Stuber has since worked on four continents, authored five books, and hosts one of the world's largest D&I KnowledgeBlogs, the diversitymine.eu, with some 2,000 articles. He co-created Germany's first National anti-racism program, helped locate survivors for the HVAP, and supported major US firms in redesigning Racial Equity or Management Training for EMEA. His approach bridges research, strategy and transformation to embed DE&I in business, leadership and culture.

Nene Molefi is a globally recognized consultant, keynote speaker, coach and author with over 25 years of experience shaping leadership, organizational transformation, and diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) across industries. Born and raised in Soweto, Johannesburg, she has built an esteemed career advocating for values-driven leadership, high-performing teams, and systemic change in organizations worldwide.

As the Founder and CEO of Mandate Molefi HR Consultants, Nene has advised multinational corporations, governments, and nonprofit organizations. Her expertise spans Whole System Culture Change, Executive Leadership Development, DEI Strategy and High-Stakes Facilitation—guiding courageous, results-driven conversations that tackle complex organizational and societal challenges. She has led and steered intricate, long-term cultural transformation and leadership initiatives, working with multi-disciplinary and specialist teams.

Click here to DONATE and support our podcast

All donations are tax deductible through Fractured Atlas.

Simma Lieberman, The Inclusionist, helps leaders create inclusive cultures. She is a consultant, speaker, and facilitator. Simma is the creator and host of the podcast, Everyday Conversations on Race.

Contact [email protected] to get more information, book her as a speaker for your next event, help you become a more inclusive leader, or facilitate dialogues across differences.

Go to www.simmalieberman.com and www.raceconvo.com for more information

Simma is a member of and inspired by the global organization IAC (Inclusion Allies Coalition)

Connect with me:

Instagram Facebook YouTube Twitter LinkedIn Tiktok Website

Previous Episodes

Navigating Race, Mental Health and Well-being in Corporate America How Racist Competency Checks Prevent Merit-Based Hiring Can Descendants of the Enslaved Reconcile with the Enslavers? Loved this episode? Leave us a review and rating

How can Black professionals address the mental, physical and emotional toll of success in corporate America? Join Simma Lieberman, the Inclusionist, in this insightful episode of Everyday Conversations on Race with guests Shaniqua McClendon and Justin Grant. Shaniqua, VP of Politics at Crooked Media, and Justin, an executive at JP Morgan Chase, share their personal stories and experiences about the significance of discussing race in society and corporate environments. They also delve into the intricacies of mental, physical and emotional health, especially for Black individuals in corporate America. Listen in to hear their personal stories and how they had to learn and practice self-care strategies for their mental, physical and emotional health.

How can developing and being part of a supportive community help maintain healthy blood pressure, prevent heart attacks and build a strong immune system?

How does meditation, deep breathing, walking and other exercise reduce stress, and anxiety and support success?

Discover practical advice, inspirational stories, and engaging discussions that highlight the importance of community, self-care, and systemic change.

The techniques, practices and actions they share as Black people in corporate America should be used by anyone who cares about their own mental, physical and emotional well-being in our society today.

Don't miss this thought-provoking conversation and learn how to navigate these critical issues effectively.

Get 45% off the Magic Mind bundle or 20% off a one-time purchase with Simma's exclusive link: magicmind.com/SimmaL20

(Support mental health services for the homeless and low-income communities.)

00:00 Introduction and Podcast Overview

00:41 Meet the Guests: Shaniqua McClendon and Justin Grant

02:15 The Importance of Discussing Race

02:33 Historical Context and Systemic Issues

07:36 Personal Stories: Shaniqua McClendon

11:45 Personal Stories: Justin Grant

15:48 Mental Health and Corporate America

29:15 The Importance of Mental Health Support

30:55 Stigma Around Therapy in the Black Community

32:43 Ethno Therapy and Cultural Considerations

35:15 Navigating Corporate America as a Black Professional

41:42 Strategies for Self-Care and Community Building

52:22 Final Thoughts and Parting Advice

Guests Bio:

Justin Grant is an accomplished writer, marketer, community development and corporate communications leader with more than a decade of experience leading high-profile campaigns in the asset management and financial services industries. He serves as a mentor to numerous students and young professionals of varying backgrounds, both in the United States and Brazil, and sits on the Board of Trustees at Long Island University, where he has taught journalism. Grant is the author of the new book, "Company Men: A Wellness Guide for Black Men in Corporate America" (Wordeee, Feb. 12, 2025).

Links for Justin --

Website LinkedIn Goodreads Amazon Bookshop

Shaniqua McClendon is the Vice President of Politics for Crooked Media (home to the popular podcast, Pod Save America), a political strategist and sought-after speaker and commentator on media, politics, voting, and race. At Crooked Media, she leads their political strategy and civic engagement program (Vote Save America), and also created their successful 2020 volunteer engagement and fundraising program

Links for Shaniqua -- Website Twitter Instagram LinkedIn

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All donations are tax deductible through Fractured Atlas.

Simma Lieberman, The Inclusionist, helps leaders create inclusive cultures. She is a consultant, speaker, and facilitator. Simma is the creator and host of the podcast, Everyday Conversations on Race.

Contact [email protected] to get more information, book her as a speaker for your next event, help you become a more inclusive leader, or facilitate dialogues across differences.

Go to www.simmalieberman.com and www.raceconvo.com for more information

Simma is a member of and inspired by the global organization IAC (Inclusion Allies Coalition)

Connect with me:

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Previous Episodes

How Racist Competency Checks Prevent Merit-Based Hiring Can Descendants of the Enslaved Reconcile with the Enslavers? Can Individuals Really End Racism? Loved this episode? Leave us a review and rating

Have you ever felt challenged or questioned because of your race? In this episode of Everyday Conversations on Race, Simma Lieberman welcomes Shari Dunn, author of Qualified: How Competency Checking and Race Collide at Work.

Explore how race affects perceptions of competence and the real-world impacts of systemic racism in the workplace. You'll understand how racist competency checks can impede merit-based hiring. With personal anecdotes and historical insights, Shari Dunn sheds light on how people of color, especially Black women, face unfair scrutiny and bias in their professional lives. Discover why it's crucial to talk about race, debunk myths of a colorblind society, and take actionable steps toward creating inclusive work cultures. Tune in for a heartfelt and informative cross-race discussion and hear what we can do to unite and bring people together across differences. Learn more about this important topic and share this episode to help grow the conversation.

00:00 Introduction to the Podcast

00:53 Meet Shari Dunn: Author of 'Qualified'

02:05 Shari Dunn's Varied Career Background

03:19 The Concept of Competency Checking

03:58 The Importance of Discussing Race

04:26 Historical Context and Colorblindness

06:51 Merit-Based Society: Fact or Fiction?

08:39 Personal Experiences and Systemic Barriers

19:40 The Toll of Racism on Health

22:20 Examples of Competency Checking

29:03 The Cost of White Supremacy

30:29 The Exercise: Labels and Leadership

32:13 The Great Man Theory of Leadership

33:56 Imposter Syndrome and Workplace Dynamics

35:13 The Danger of Misplaced Leadership

38:13 White Supremacy's Impact on White People

39:52 Stories of Competency Checking

47:31 The Concept of Whiteness and Blackness

50:51 Actions to Combat Competency Checking

54:14 Conclusion and Contact Information

Get 45% off the Magic Mind bundle or 20% off a one-time purchase with Simma's exclusive link: magicmind.com/SimmaL20

(Support mental health services for the homeless and low-income communities.)

Guests Bio:

Shari Dunn is a polymath, an accomplished journalist, and a former attorney, news anchor, CEO, and university professor.

She is an American Leadership Forum Fellow and has been awarded the prestigious Executive of the Year Award in 2018, the 2019 Women of Influence Award (Portland Business Journal), the Associated Press Award for Best Spot News, and the Wisconsin Broadcasting Association Award for Best Morning News Show. Her work has been cited in the Wall Street Journal and quoted in TIME and Fast Company among others. Shari is also a sought-after speaker. She holds a BA in philosophy from Marquette University and a JD from Northwestern Pritzker School of Law.

Click here to DONATE and support our podcast

All donations are tax deductible through Fractured Atlas.

Simma Lieberman, The Inclusionist, helps leaders create inclusive cultures. She is a consultant, speaker, and facilitator. Simma is the creator and host of the podcast, Everyday Conversations on Race.

Contact [email protected] to get more information, book her as a speaker for your next event, help you become a more inclusive leader, or facilitate dialogues across differences.

Go to www.simmalieberman.com and www.raceconvo.com for more information

Simma is a member of and inspired by the global organization IAC (Inclusion Allies Coalition)

Connect with me:

Instagram Facebook YouTube Twitter LinkedIn Tiktok Website

Previous Episodes

Can Descendants of the Enslaved Reconcile with the Enslavers? Can Individuals Really End Racism? How Can Art Eliminate Racism? Loved this episode? Leave us a review and rating