Everyone's Agnostic Podcast

Welcome everyone to episode 217 of the Everyone’s Agnostic podcast. I’m Cass Midgley. Today I don't have a guest. My wife and I are headed up to Madison as this is being released to visit our dear friends, Bob and Edie Pondillo. Bob was the co-host of this podcast for the first four years, over 200 episodes. I miss him greatly as I'm sure you do too, if you were listening through those years. But back in September of 2014 we recorded episode 14 with Bob reading an essay he wrote called "Good Without God." It remains one of our most downloaded episodes ever, with over 4,000 downloads.  So I'm going to rerun that reading by Bob as a tribute to him while I'm up thinking, stinking and drinking with him on his porch. One of my favorite things to do in the world.

We interview people you don’t know, about a subject no one wants to talk about. We hope to encourage people in the process of deconstructing their faith and help curb the loneliness that accompanies it. We think the world is a better place when more people live by sight, not by faith. Please subscribe to our podcast, and leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts. Also, we offer these podcasts freely. And your support truly makes a difference. You can support us monetarily in two easy ways: you can pledge a monthly donation through Patreon. that’s www.patreon.com/eapodcast,  or leave a lump-sum donation through PayPal at our website, www.everyonesagnostic.com.

We taped Bob's reading of "Good Without God" in August of 2014

The intro music is by Dave Weckl called "Just Groove Me"

Thanks for listening, and be a yes-sayer to what is.

Welcome everyone to episode 216 of the Everyone’s Agnostic podcast. I’m Cass Midgley.  My guest today is Rachel and that's all she's going to go by today. She's hear to talk about GRIEF, especially secular tools for coping with grief. This is a great convo.  You're not going to believe how sharp Rachel is. Prepare to be a better person 2 hours from now (if you listen in one sitting; which no one does, so...) Prepare to be a better person and more equipped to deal with grief whenever you get through this episode.  

We interview people you don’t know, about a subject no one wants to talk about. We hope to encourage people in the process of deconstructing their faith and help curb the loneliness that accompanies it. We think the world is a better place when more people live by sight, not by faith. Please subscribe to our podcast, and leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts. Also, we offer these podcasts freely. And your support truly makes a difference. You can support us monetarily in two easy ways: you can pledge a monthly donation through Patreon. that’s www.patreon.com/eapodcast,  or leave a lump-sum donation through PayPal at our website, www.everyonesagnostic.com.

Between 2002-2011, Rachel moved ten times for her husband's graduate education and career in ministry.  The more she studied the scriptures and served in the church, the more her faith eroded. This was true for her husband, as well. For him, addiction ensued and secrecy abounded.  

In 2010, Rachel left her religious tradition to explore new worldviews, including humanism and applied positive psychology. While she flourished in her newfound freedom, her husband languished... consumed by regret, self-doubt, and anxiety around the potential fallout of leaving the fold.

Two years later, Rachel's optimism was put to the ultimate test when her husband died in a car accident, leaving her widowed overnight with three boys to raise. Although surrounded by loving and well-intentioned family and friends, her support system offered definitively Christian comfort and consolation. This minimized her loss and compromised her ability to process her grief honestly and openly.  

Ever since she's been exploring new pathways to navigate both life and death in the pursuit of wholehearted healing and reality-based hope.  Her desire is to build secular communities of support for people whose lives have been disrupted by tragedy, transition, and loss... including (and especially) the loss of faith.

Rachel is a resilience trainer and grief support specialist. Even though she talks about death and loss a lot, she's into all things mind-expanding, life-enriching,  and joy-inducing. She is currently developing "resilience without religion" retreats through www.FlourishingBeyondBelief.com.

We taped this conversation on July 29th, 2018. The intro music is by Dave Weckl called "Just Groove Me"Thanks for listening, and be a yes-sayer to what is.

find your 25 strengths at https://www.viacharacter.org/

Maria Paplova's Blog - Brain Pickings

Welcome everyone to episode 215 of the Everyone’s Agnostic podcast. I’m Cass Midgley. Today, my guest is James Exline.

We interview people you don’t know, about a subject no one wants to talk about. We hope to encourage people in the process of deconstructing their faith and help curb the loneliness that accompanies it. We think the world is a better place when more people live by sight, not by faith. Please subscribe to our podcast, and leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts. Also, we offer these podcasts freely. And your support truly makes a difference. You can support us monetarily in two easy ways: you can pledge a monthly donation through Patreon. that’s www.patreon.com/eapodcast,  or leave a lump-sum donation through PayPal at our website, www.everyonesagnostic.com.

James is a coffee zealot and self-proclaimed coffee snob who is a former jesus follower who became a pastor who was not only derailed by his own cognitive dissonance and loss of faith but his abusive childhood and his mother's solution of feeding him into obesity by age 3, James retained, at no easy feat, to keep his integrity, agency and self-respect to go on to serve at a drug and alcohol treatment center. Today he's an atheist and humanist. Overcoming decades of self-hatred and endless bullying, he is in recovery himself from alcohol, opioid and food addictions, he is passionate about helping fellow addicts and alcoholics obtain better lives through sobriety—this time sans god. James has written memoirs chronicling his journey from faith to atheism; those memoirs and more can be read on his blog https://jamesexlineatheist.blogspot.com/ He is also a contributing author at https://www.fullydeconverted.com/ and currently works as a barista at Starbucks while he works on certifications to return to work in the addiction treatment industry.

We taped this conversation on July 21st, 2018. The intro music is by Dave Weckl called "Just Groove Me" Thanks for listening, and be a yes-sayer to what is.

https://worldbeyondwar.org/good-people-doing-bad-things/

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2012/nov/12/improbable-research-seeing-upside-down

Cog Dis : the state of having inconsistent thoughts, beliefs, or attitudes, especially as relating to behavioral decisions and attitude change. you either give in to it and let it keep your world upside down, or you listen to it and reject the nonsense.

Upside down. I'm not trying to boast here, but all my life I've been a softie. As a young boy I once shot a Robin out of a tree with a BB gun. I went to his broken body on the ground, picked him/her up, petted her, wept and buried her.  I've only ever wanted people to just get along. I hate estrangement of any kind, let alone war and hatred. I hate separation of any kind, especially the kind that gives a person licence to benefit at another's expense. It was the Love I was presented in Jesus in God that I bought into. It was the peace-maker Jesus. We know now that if you have a good heart, that the good-hearted Christianity will appeal to you and make you an even better person, because a good person is always looking, whether they know it or not, for those things that will augment the good in their own hearts and in the world. If you're a person with deep-seeded pain that you've not dealt with, talked through, worked through, then bitterness, resentment, fear, self-pity, victimhood and self-dislike or distrust is going to draw you to the mean-spirited Christianity. We humans don't see things as they are, we see things as we are. If toxicity is running through our hearts and minds, then our insecurity will drive us to find things that confirm the skewed lens through which we interpret the world, not confront it. But Nobel Prize winning physicist Steven Weinberg said, "With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil — that takes religion." Weinberg points to a phenomenon that truly turns things upside down. An otherwise good-hearted person can find themselves thinking, saying, and doing things so inconsistent with their original goodness by giving their freedom and agency to dogmas that flip their morals upside down. Devotion to the wrong things produces devotion to wrong things and it breeds in on itself. We become what we admire. And like all successful scams, they pull your naive, gullible good self in with goodness and then slowly turn things upside down the moment they recognize that you've lost your bearings. And before you know it, you become what you used to hate. Stockholm syndrome. One thing I say when people ask why I left Christianity, its because I somehow mustered enough conscience and agency to spot it. To spot what I was becoming. For me, it was 9-11. For some more recently, it's been the evangelical support of Trump. It's noticing cog dis when you see it. Christians that hate Sharia Law wanting our schools, cop cars, and money to say, "In Allah we trust," and to impose Biblical law on non-bible adhering fellow citizens.  It's Christian racists. Christian anti-education. Christian misogyny. Until some of us began to wonder, "are these betrayals of Christianity or loyalties to Christianity?

Some years ago, the psychologist Albert Bandura listed eight mental tricks people play to disengage their consciences so they can perform the acts of violence they would normally abhor. I present them now with some commentary from Kent Shifferd, a Ph.D. History Professor with over 30 years experience studying Peace:

1. Moral Justification: one is persuaded, for example, that killing the enemy serves a higher moral purpose such as protecting one’s country or serving God’s plan, etc.
2. Euphemistic Labeling: people mask the true nature of behavior they know is unethical, such as labeling “enhanced interrogation” for torture, “servicing the target” for shooting the enemy, and “disinformation” for lying.
3. Advantageous Comparison: as in “What I am doing is not as bad as what they are doing.”
4. Displacement of Responsibility: Uncritically following orders, as in the Nazi concentration camp workers or SS execution squads.
5. Diffusion of Responsibility: when a whole group decides on the unethical action or when the action is divided into many subparts, for example, the building of nuclear weapons. (“All I do is assemble this little electronic part.” Or, “I’m just driving a truck bring supplies—I don’t shoot anybody.”)
6. Disregard or Distortion of Consequences: for example, when harm is inflicted at a distance (as in officers in Montana who guide drones that make “bug splats” in Afghanistan) or dropping bombs from a plane on “targets” even though women and children and old men are being killed below.
7. Dehumanization: labeling the victims of one’s violence as non- or subhuman, as in calling Vietnamese people “slants” and “gooks” during that war, or Germans “Huns” in WWI, or Arabs “towel heads” and “sand niggers” in the First Gulf War.
8. Attribution of Blame: or blaming the victim who is seen as deserving the mistreatment or seen as having brought it on themselves. For example, “These German civilians we are killing below should not have voted for Hitler; therefore they are to blame for our bombings.

One of the great dangers of letting one's morality get turned upside down, is our brains can trick us into thinking everything's fine, everything is right side up. Not only ideologically, but literally.

In the middle of the 20th century, an Austrian professor turned a man's eyesight exactly upside-down, but after a short time, the man adjusted and could function as normal. Professor Theodor Erismann, of the University of Innsbruck, devised the experiment, performing it upon his assistant and student, Ivo Kohler. The professor had Kohler wear a pair of hand-engineered goggles. Inside those goggles, specially arranged mirrors flipped the images that would reach Kohler's eyes, top becoming bottom, and bottom top.At first, Kohler stumbled wildly when trying to grasp an object held out to him, navigate around a chair, or walk down stairs. In a simple fencing game with sticks, Kohler would rise his stick high when attacked low, and low in response to a high stab. Holding a teacup out to be filled, he would turn the cup upside down the instant he saw the water apparently pouring upward. The sight of smoke rising from a match, or a helium balloon bobbing on a string, could trigger an instant change in his sense of which direction was up, and which down.But over the next week, Kohler found himself adapting, in fits and starts, then more consistently, to such sights.  After 10 days, he had grown so accustomed to the invariably upside-down world that, paradoxically and happily, everything seemed to him normal, rightside-up. Kohler could do everyday activities in public perfectly well: walk along a crowded sidewalk, even ride a bicycle.

Erismann and Kohler did further experiments. So did other scientists. Their impression is that many, perhaps most, maybe just about all, people are able to make these kinds of adjustment. Images reach the eye in some peculiar fashion, and if that peculiar fashion is consistent, a person's visual system eventually, somehow, adjusts to interpret it — to perceive it, to see it — as being normal. Kohler writes that, "after several weeks of wearing goggles that transposed right and left, one person "became so at home in his reversed world that he was able to drive a motorcycle through Innsbruck while wearing the goggles". This automatic, almost-effortless adaptation to visual weirdness is one of many bizarre things that brains do that scientists simply do not understand.

Like many of us ex-Christians, my guest today, James Exline, started listening to and giving credence to, his own head-scratching cognitive dissonances. We took off our metaphorical goggles that had flipped everything and we realized we'd been dooped. However, since we'd been wearing the goggles for so long, our brains had to correct the adaptation they'd adopted. By taking the goggles off, we were seeing reality--things as they really are--but now normal seemed upside down. It was probably due to this alarming revelation that some of us quickly put the goggles back on, saying, "I don't care if my world is not real, I'm not ready to have my world turned upside down." For those of us on whom the goggles where placed at an early age, we'd never really seen the world as it is. And it's scary. Probably the very reason that the goggles were invented at all.  

I want to trust the convictions of the boy in me who regretted killing that Robin. I want to believe myself when I tilted my head at the Noah's ark story, or Jesus saying he came not to bring peace but a sword. I want to be wary of my own propensity to justify violence when I'm coming from a place of fear or victimhood. One thing I love about James' story and so many of these deconversion stories, is that we all know tons of people who will go to their grave believing in the inverted world of Christianity, and some of us feel grateful that if not for the grace of honesty, there go I. There is a resilient human spirit that will not be snuffed out by the Bible. James, like many of us, found that his devotion to Christian doctrine brought out the lower angels of his nature, which ironically only intensified the self-hatred willed to him by his father. His fight out of the dumps to eventually develop an endearing fishing partnership with his aging father is a product of James trusting his own heart--his good heart--that was good all along, despite what the Bible told him so.  

Welcome everyone to episode 214 of the Everyone’s Agnostic podcast. I’m Cass Midgley. I'm going to die. A big thanks to each and every one of our Patreon and Paypal supporters.  Today, my dear friend Dave Warnock and I talk with Marcia Wickham.

We interview people you don’t know, about a subject no one wants to talk about. We hope to encourage people in the process of deconstructing their faith and help curb the loneliness that accompanies it. We think the world is a better place when more people live by sight, not by faith. Please subscribe to our podcast, and leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts. Also, we offer these podcasts freely. And your support truly makes a difference. You can support us monetarily in two easy ways: you can pledge a monthly donation through Patreon. that’s www.patreon.com/eapodcast,  or leave a lump-sum donation through PayPal at our website, www.everyonesagnostic.com.

Marcia Wickham is an organic farmer from central PA and the mother of eight beautiful kids. Her recovery from childhood incest has led her to a passionate interest in helping other survivors and in building bridges of understanding between the Christian faith and those who have left. She engages in dialogue with pastors to address the ways theology can collide with psychology when it comes to the often messy process of recovery. She’s studied psychology, sociology and philosophy of religion through Harrisburg Community College and has collaborated with Refinery29 in New York on a feature length documentary about recovery from incest that is in its final edit. She’s also done podcasts with Life After God and Women Beyond Belief.

Like all of these episodes, we interview regular people, fighting their own battles, reaching for oxygen, discovering their own selves, wrestling to steal back their own lives, their own agency, formerly hijacked by people and gods and people-made-gods, just to craft some kind of life worth living and find the laughter and joy that is theirs to procure. Buckle your seatbelts. Push your earbuds in tight. You're gonna wanna take this in, drink this in, deep into your soul because we all have a lot to learn from Marcia. This is what power looks like. This is what overcoming odds and violation and people who step WAY beyond the bounds of other precious human's rights. Fuck the takers. Applaud the givers but most of all, WORSHIP the BE-ers. They just want to be. They've detached from the myth of NEED NEED NEED. Not Marcia, she KNEED her malefactor in the metaphorical balls posthumously and reinvented herself anew. This kind of power is what excites me, gives me hope. It's strangely non-violent yet kicks ass and takes names in a way that foments love and tenderness and respect and hope. So with further Beauty, I bring you, Marcia Wickham.

We taped this conversation on July 22nd, 2018.

The intro music is by Dave Weckl called "Just Groove Me"

The segue music on this episode is "Ghost Train" by Counting Crows

Thanks for listening, and be a yes-sayer to what is.

Welcome everyone to episode 213 of the Everyone’s Agnostic podcast. I’m Cass Midgley.Today, I'm going to feature a short piece by Mark Manson, author of "The Sacred Art of Not Giving a Fuck."

We interview people you don’t know, about a subject no one wants to talk about. We hope to encourage people in the process of deconstructing their faith and help curb the loneliness that accompanies it. We think the world is a better place when more people live by sight, not by faith. Please subscribe to our podcast, and leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts. Also, we offer these podcasts freely. And your support truly makes a difference. You can support us monetarily in two easy ways: you can pledge a monthly donation through Patreon. that’s www.patreon.com/eapodcast,  or leave a lump-sum donation through PayPal at our website, www.everyonesagnostic.com. The intro and segue music is by Dave Weckl called "Just Groove Me" Thanks for listening, and be a yes-sayer to what is.

I don't have a guest today. In fact, this is really just a filler episode that I figure is better than posting nothing. I've had a crazy week, I've got several shows in the can, in fact next week's show is a doozy and I just didn't have the time to do it justice, so I invite you to go listen to episode 35 of Ryan Bell's podcast Life After God with his guest Marcia Wickham to get some background on her story. She's my guest next week. My fellow ex-pastor Dave Warnock sits in as co-host as well. Marcia is a Phoenix that rose out of the ashes of incestuous sexual abuse that was exacerbated by Christianity. She is one impressive woman.

Today I'm going to play a couple of pieces by Mark Manson. I really like Manson and they way he thinks. I relate to it. Sometimes I listen to things that stretch me, and sometimes I listen to things that affirm my crazy thoughts and it helps me not think I'm crazy. Self-acceptance is a big deal. The world would be such a better place if more people accepted themselves. I used to say love themselves or like themselves but I prefer accept one's self because acceptance includes even those things that one doesn't like or love about  one's self. Bob and I used to talk a lot on this podcast about seeing ourselves as connected. The bell tolls for thee type stuff. When I see you I see me. When I'm mean to you I'm mean to me. etc. Self-acceptance is the precursor to any of that even beginning to happen. Why? Because saying yes to what it means to be me is achieved by looking at myself eyes wide open, not hiding or denying or wishing anything were different. With that level  of acceptance, I clap my hands, slap my face, jump up and down and enter the world. I bring it. I bring me. Unashamed. Unapologetic. I don't answer to anyone. The only person I have to be loyal to is me. The only person I need to impress is me, and I don't want to be impressed, so I'm off the hook from having to perform or wow. I don't need anything from anyone in the room. I'm not feeding off of them, or looking for affirmation or validation. I'm enough and I know it because I accepted my reality and said yes to what is.

On the other hand, if you doubt yourself, or reject yourself or deny who you are, you say no to it, then you don't REALLY ever bring yourself into the room. Well, you do, because you have to, but it's really scary for you because you don't really want to be seen because you know how weak you are, how bland, how not funny or not smart or not educated or not clever. Almost everywhere you go you feel out of your league, you're less than and you know if people really knew you and saw you for who you really are they would reject you like you've rejected yourself. So you put on a mask and a cloak and people's desire to connect with you is preempted by your costume because they think they're connecting with you but they're connecting with a fictional character you've created. I've been in relationship with these types for years, and eventually I got the nagging sense that I didn't really know them. If I thought about it or cared enough to think about I'd discover that there's no depth to our friendship, there's something missing. What's missing is THEM. They're not here. They've sent their avatar.

So this ideal of humans connecting and seeing their self in each other is hijacked because humans can't fully connect with ghosts, with hidden people, with guarded people, with fakers and posers.

As Christians we embraced this line of thinking because we were sinners in the hands of an angry God who could only look upon us if we were (and I kid you not) HIDDEN IN CHRIST! We put on the mask of Christ and not only thereby hid from God, but we hid from each other. That's why church always felt like a play. We were actors. Taking our cues from what we believed God wanted from us--in the way of behavior and vocabulary, values and priorities. We got our identity from outside of ourselves. So we were hollow. Shells. The lights were on but no one was home. And when we lost our faith and found ourselves in a godless world, some of us didn't know who to be. We didn't know who we were. We may have carried over some shame from being human, being sexual, being crass, being normal. We may have been tempted to hide. Old habits die hard. But the real world out there wanting to connect with us needs us defrocked, demasked, delivered from self-rejection and fear.

So come on in the water's warm. We're all fucked up. We're all cellular accidents with no owner's manuals. Join the human race. Join this insane, inane experiment of evolutionary biology. Fart if you want, we all do it. Sing if you want. Be angry, but hurt, and most of all be honest. We'll decide how much we like you and how much time we want to spend with you, but don't take it personal, you get to do the same with me. And that's not rejection, that's actually us ACCEPTING each other for who we are. That doesn't mean we'll be best friends, but at least we'll be making these kind of decisions based on the truth of who we are, not some facade.  

Welcome everyone to episode 212 of the Everyone’s Agnostic podcast. I’m Cass Midgley. I'm going to die. A big thanks to each and every one of our Patreon and Paypal supporters.  Today my guest is Pat LaFord Green. We interview people you don’t know, about a subject no one wants to talk about. We hope to encourage people in the process of deconstructing their faith and help curb the loneliness that accompanies it. We think the world is a better place when more people live by sight, not by faith. Please subscribe to our podcast, and leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts. Also, we offer these podcasts freely. And your support truly makes a difference. You can support us monetarily in two easy ways: you can pledge a monthly donation through Patreon. that’s www.patreon.com/eapodcast,  or leave a lump-sum donation through PayPal at our website, www.everyonesagnostic.com. We taped this conversation on July 21st, 2018. The intro and segue music is by Dave Weckl called "Just Groove Me."  Thanks for listening, and be a yes-sayer to what is.

Pat decided before coming on this podcast, because he's been featured on a few, that he was gonna be real. He was gonna relax and not pre-imagine what it was going to be, or plan out what or how he was going to present. He was going to be Pat. Not "just" Pat, or "just" Cass, because that intones "only or merely." And there's nothing mere about Pat or me or you. On the other hand, "merely" means only as specified and nothing more. So in this sense, Pat did show up as merely Pat and nothing more. No showboating or posturing or masquerading. Just Pat. Which sounds like something Mr. Rogers would say, "just you." And we're enough, aren't we? We're all a mixture. We're all confused. We all succeed and fail and we vary on what those words even mean. We avoid placing judgment on the art that is us, don't we? Hopefully we do, because if a painter or sculpture or poet or songwriter or woodcarver sets out to express themselves in ways that they don't even know where it's going to go when they put paint brush to canvas, then the Big Bang certainly didn't know either where this was going, did it? So everything is a big "OOPS" isn't it? How many of us are accidents where our Dads were in such ecstacy in climaxing balls deep inside our mom's that we're really just a big "oops?" When we see the reality of this chaotic mess we find ourselves in we lose entitlement and expectation and privilege, don't we? We're not privileged to be here. A privilege is a benefit enjoyed only by a person beyond the advantages of most, and when it comes to our biology, our cellular makeup, the fact that we're all animals and accidents at best, is the truth. Any narrative that lifts us above another is mythology, and a pernicious one at that. Scared people kick and scratch to elevate themselves above others. It's only true in their imagination. They love the elusion, don't bother them with the facts, their "enjoying" their superiority, their lie, their bedtime story that calms their fears of being stuck in an elevator with 10 other strangers for 24 hours where body odor and urine and feces and rage and panic would manifest, maybe even death. They might have to be in the same room with a corpse, which is basically 150 pounds of mud that was formerly animated by electronic synapses firing impulses and orders to the eyes and mouth and now is gone to who knows...Where was I. Oh yeah, Art. Isn't it lovely?

In art, especially in the medium of movies, we have the full gamut of "feel good" movies and horror. I've often wondered why some people find horror movies entertaining, because I personally find them ugly, repulsive, disturbing and vile. But I'm suspicious that my place of privilege far removed from the real horrors of life, raised white straight cis male upper middle class by parents who loved me and never fucked me. If my childhood had been a horror instead of the blissfully ignorant and naive pampered version of a super-loved, mono-ethnic, Christian rural upbringing, I might find some entertainment, even comfort, from horror films. It seems that the privileged don't want to be reminded of the horrors of reality, whereas those whose reality and childhood were already a horror, perhaps they find comfort and entertainment in the mockery and public display of the horrific. There's some fascinating scholarship out there studying the existential connections between the art-horror genre and humanities' attraction and avoidance of anxiety and repulsion.

I learned a word when researching this subject: intersticial. It has to do with a small or narrow space or interval between things or parts. In the Hegelian dialectic, its the synthesis, but in the case of horror, it's disrupting and/or disturbing.  On the question of what makes a monster horrifying, Noël Carroll, in his seminal work "The Philosophy of Horror," argues that monsters are ‘interstitial’ or ‘impure’. They are not entirely alien to us, but rather fall between familiar categories: for example, vampires, zombies, and Frankenstein’s monster are somewhere between living and dead, werewolves and the the Fly are both human and beast. The Exorcist and The Omen, even Christ demonstrate something part human and part supernatural entity.

These hybrids throw a wrench in modern western binary thinking. And some of us are ready for complexity, nuance and even outlandish, because perhaps we're bored with chocolate and vanilla. Maybe we're not afraid to be wrong or that life is beyond our understanding. We don't have to have it all figured out in order to have fun. In fact, quite the opposite.

Well my guest today, Pat Green vomited the fruit from the knowledge of good and evil and decided that he didn't need such shallow knowledge, nor did he need to know or place judgment on things as either good or evil. He chose neither. Pat is a former minister of 16 years who left ministry and entered the secular life around the time his son came out transgender.After attending Christian Life College with an undergrad in Pastoral Studies he was a youth pastor in a smattering of Assemblies of God and non denominational churches. By the time he started pastoring his own church, LifeBridge Church in Lockport Il (near Chicago), he had jumped ship and went into liberal land. Between 2012 and 2013 his life entered an upheaval and he found himself divorced, driving a taxi, and loving his LGBTQIA+ son for all he was worth. Together, they rode the storm and Pat was left with no faith in a god, but a lot of love. Today, as a photographer, writer, and a storyteller, he is trying to navigate his way through this new existence in a free market capitalist world he does not fully grasp. His professional writing has been seen in various publications both online and in print for over the last 12 years. He was a regular contributor to 22nd Century Media, Aquarius News, and also in the Secular Spectrum on Patheos with his blog Tranparent Expedition.Pat also wrote a book in 2015 titled, “Night Moves: An Ex Preachers Journey to Hell in a Taxi“, which is available online on Amazon. His professional photography has been featured in various newspapers, websites, and other formats since 1985. Most recently, Pat is a proud member of The Artist Guild Of Lockport and the international group RAW Artists where he volunteers as an ambassador helping new artists showcase their work in shows. With Pat’s passion for his son, his new life is told as honestly and as openly as he can be. He misses Disney World, financial solvency and having a back yard to mow.

Welcome everyone to episode 211 of the Everyone’s Agnostic podcast. I’m Cass Midgley. I'm going to die. A big thanks to each and every one of our Patreon and Paypal supporters.  Today my guest is Peter Montoya. This is the 3rd time I've had Peter on the show. You can get his full story back on episode 130. He was also featured briefly in episode 163, on Dr. Marlene Winell's second appearance. Peter is all about living a fulfilled life and he sees community as an integral part of achieving that goal. For us ex-Christians, church used to be the main place we connected with a community. Some of us had bad experiences but it's likely that even those were the exception and not the rule. I know I used to look forward to seeing everyone and feeling that energy of people gathering every Sunday morning. But what now? How do we find community after faith is gone? Peter has some tips on how to do just that.

We interview people you don’t know, about a subject no one wants to talk about. We hope to encourage people in the process of deconstructing their faith and help curb the loneliness that accompanies it. We think the world is a better place when more people live by sight, not by faith. Please subscribe to our podcast, and leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts. Also, we offer these podcasts freely. And your support truly makes a difference. You can support us monetarily in two easy ways: you can pledge a monthly donation through Patreon. that’s www.patreon.com/eapodcast,  or leave a lump-sum donation through PayPal at our website, www.everyonesagnostic.com.

We taped this conversation on June 25th, 2018.

The intro music is by Dave Weckl called "Just Groove Me"

Featuring "People" by Barbara Streisand. 

The outro song: You've Got A Friend In Me (From "Toy Story"/ Soundtrack) by Lyle Lovett & Randy Newman.

Thanks for listening, and be a yes-sayer to what is.

Perhaps it's not about finding community but creating one. If we wait to be found or to find our people, we could possibly die waiting. Some of us have the means to CREATE a community. As you'll hear in this conversation with Peter Montoya, there are steps one can take to create a recurring meetup with friends. One way that you can calm yourself around this audacious and ominus undertaking is that even if you just meet once a month, at the end of a year you can look back and see 12 meetings that changed lives. It doesn't have to be a big deal or life changing each meeting. It's the 30,000 foot view that says, "we make the path by walking it." One foot in front of the other and before you know it, deep relationships are formed, and enriching exchanges are had. For those who find themselves in remote locations, there is the internet. Charles, a long-time friend and supporter of the show, started a virtual community that meets every other week on a platform called Zoom that functions like Skype where you can see and hear the other participants. We have listeners all over the English speaking world and many don't have community in their geographical proximity, so Facebook and groups like Charles' EA Virtual Small Group can help serve such people with a means to connect to others. It's SO important. .

Dr. Mark Hyman said, "The power of community to create health is far greater than any physician, clinic or hospital." If you're interested in being a part of the communities that have formed around this podcast, you can message me on Facebook or email me at [email protected] and I'll help you get connected to virtual communities and support groups specifically designed to encourage people who no longer believe in the supernatural, are opening their eyes and ears and saying yes to reality and they're feeling the void of lost community.

Relationships are a two way street. They will be dynamic in direct relation to how honest both parties are. If you've done the deep, hard work of accepting yourself, you bring that unhidden person to the gathering. If you encounter someone who has also done the deep, hard work of accepting their self, you will be able to assess the real potential of that relationship. A natural byproduct of accepting one's self--flaws and all--is a greater capacity to accept others--flaws and all. The joy and depth of a community is directly correlated to how honest the participants have been able to get. A Christian author, Catholic actually, who I respected when I was a Christian and still do, is Henri Nouwen. He said this, "Solitude is very different from just a 'time-out' from our busy lives. Solitude is the very ground from which community grows. Whenever we pray alone, study, read, write, or simply spend quiet time away from the places where we interact with each other directly, we are potentially opened for a deeper intimacy with each other."

We're learning that this tension that we all feel between introvert and extrovert is not black and white. We're all both. We get energy from time alone and from time with others. As the steward of your own happiness and health, only you know what you need and your needs are unique to you. We're learning that the "one size fits all" mentality of conformity religions is not honest nor real. Thus, we are free to navigate our relationships and free to let others navigate theirs. Some of us are uncomfortable with the thought of Sunday Assembly or Oasis or any kind of forced intimacy, other's love being in these gatherings, engaging with others, meeting new people. However, most of us are both--sometimes we do, sometimes we don't. And that's my point. As in most things I say, I almost always end up saying "you do you."

The acceptance of what is, the acceptance ourselves, each other, the form the moment is taking, empower us to navigate this tumultuous, unpredictable world that we could be yanked from at any moment, give us the smile we need to calm down, to pick our battles and our fucks better, to get excited about the right things, to give ourselves permission to take in this magical moment, with these beautiful disgusting people, eating this food that we'll only shit out later, drinking these drinks that we may regret in the morning, acknowledging the unavoidable awkwardness that occurs when any two people try to walk up to each other and make something happen.

This is the dance. This is our lives. May we find each other, accept each other and benefit somehow from the shared experience that is the human condition.

http://thriveunion.org/

Cass Midgley's guest is Kai (anonymous). Kai left home when she was 19 moving to Australia to study art. She counts this as a pivotal time in her life that created the space to begin examining her upbringing in the Seventh-Day Adventist church.  

We interview people you don’t know, about a subject no one wants to talk about. We hope to encourage people in the process of deconstructing their faith and help curb the loneliness that accompanies it. We think the world is a better place when more people live by sight, not by faith. Please subscribe to our podcast, and leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts. Also, we offer these podcasts freely. And your support truly makes a difference. You can support us monetarily in two easy ways: you can pledge a monthly donation through Patreon. that’s www.patreon.com/eapodcast,  or leave a lump-sum donation through PayPal at our website, www.everyonesagnostic.com.

We taped this conversation on June 30th, 2018. The intro music is by Dave Weckl called "Just Groove Me"The segue music is "I'm Coming Up" the 1980 hit by Dianna Ross Thanks for listening, and be a yes-sayer to what is.

Having grown up in an almost cult-like Adventist community, Kai struggled for many years with the knowledge that she was gay and what this meant for her salvation according to the church doctrine. Ultimately, this caused her to leave the Seventh-Day Adventist church, and by leave I mean she kinda went out with a bang, didn't just slink away, which is fine too, but that's not Kai. Kai, despite her small frame, is a force to be reckoned with. Rugged and tenacious. Today Kai is an ER and ICU nurse, published author and photographer, as well as an officer in the United States Navy, having served in Afghanistan and aboard a ship in the South Pacific. She insist that above all else, she is an artist.     I really enjoyed this conversation. One theme came up that I've said for years and that is that atheism is the best practice of theism. I think at one point Kai identifies as a Idon'tcareist or apatheist. People think that by buying into a religion they're hedging their bets, but I think the best way to be ready for there to be a possible God in an afterlife is to make him proud by weaning one's self of him. Maybe 2 ounces of my 190 pound frame believes gods exist, but I just can't because it smacks SO loud of human concoction (and there's no evidence).

Think about 2 really deep human conditions: the fear of loneliness and abandonment. From the time we're babies, we think that when mama leaves the room, we don't exist. As toddlers, we scream when they leave us with a babysitter or at school. As children we are taking in everything and how the people in our lives and, especially our parents behave and we simply mimic it. Our identity is informed and shaped by what we see and hear. It comes from the outside. As we lose our naive innocence and realize the world is a scary place, we take comfort in the fact that there's a roof over our head and mom and dad are in the next room, AND they've got a plan. They make our lives work. I don't have to worry about a thing.  Yet. The older I get the more I start to develop my own agency--my own ability to develop my OWN identity that is not merely a reflection of my parents and siblings. I form my own values, tastes, and priorities. Some don't develop agency. The more devout a Christian one is, the less one will learn to listen to and trust their own heart and body. If the parents or friends or boyfriends are controlling, this to might stunt their personal maturation. Then when they move out of their childhood home, they're comforted by having God, their portable parent who will never leave or abandon them as they embark into the real world. And in some ways, the don't get to grow up. I'm one of them. I like to think that my inner self, gagged and bound in the dungeon of my soul escaped, came bursting out of the basement and went on his own heroes journey, which he is still on, of course. To our surprise some of us found the scary, chaotic, parentless world was scary at all. We were more scared in the bosom our parents than we are in this godless snake-infested jungle.  Irony! Kai mentions the movie, the Village, in which a small cult-like community lives cut off from the outside world by the woods, in which they believe dangerous creatures exist. They have an uneasy truce with the creatures - if they stay out of the woods, they are left unharmed. So they are fenced in by a scary forest.

Fences are a theme in this talk. There was a fence around her compound in Afghanistan, a fence that kept her from coming out gay for so many years, and the electric fence of the church. Just about the time she thought she was gaining freedom and agency, Saturday would roll around and a one hour sermon would crush her spirit, and throw her back down the very pit of confusion and despair from which she'd spent the week climbing out. This crazy-making cycle eventually forced her hand to take some really brave steps to climb the goddamn fence and begin her journey toward wholeness.

Welcome everyone to episode 209 of the Everyone’s Agnostic podcast. I’m Cass Midgley. I'm going to die. A big thanks to each and every one of our Patreon and Paypal supporters.  Today my guest is Devin Andre Woodard. Devin is a young professional living and working in Austin, TX. Devin is a passionate man, who, after being burnt out of spending years pouring his entire being into Christian fundamentalism, is attempting to discover the freedom that comes with embracing life as it is, and making the most of the time we're given.

We taped this conversation on June 9th, 2018. The intro music is by Dave Weckl called "Just Groove Me" The segue music is "Ghost II" by Corey Kilgannon, a favorite of my guest.We interview people you don’t know, about a subject no one wants to talk about. We hope to encourage people in the process of deconstructing their faith and help curb the loneliness that accompanies it. We think the world is a better place when more people live by sight, not by faith. Please subscribe to our podcast, and leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts. Also, we offer these podcasts freely. And your support truly makes a difference. You can support us monetarily in two easy ways: you can pledge a monthly donation through Patreon. that’s www.patreon.com/eapodcast,  or leave a lump-sum donation through PayPal at our website, www.everyonesagnostic.com.

Thanks for listening, and be a yes-sayer to what is.

You've probably received a pop-up warning on your computer or your phone saying you've been infected by a virus, click here to have it removed. But if you do click it, it will give you a virus. Just this week my son got a call from Apple Tech Support telling him his phone had been hacked and that all the phones in his family plan would soon be hacked accessing all their personal info, passwords and use their friend list to invade all their friends info. He naively fell for it and proceeded to do whatever the person on the phone told him to do, including download an app on daddy's desktop computer. Which almost completed the hack for which they were warning against. It reminded me of Trump's weak, lazy, cowardly, insecure tactic of warning people about fake news, when in fact every time he opens his mouth, its fake news. An accusation is made against someone that is not true of the accused, but IS true of the accuser. There's a quote attributed to Joseph Goebbels that says, "Accuse the other side of that which you are guilty" and although there's no proof that Goebbels ever said it, it is a common tactic throughout history. Sometimes in full knowledge of its genius; sometimes from stupidity and pure survival mode of insecure bullies. But as weak as the accuser is, this tactic is not; it is highly powerful in wreaking destruction and creates a vicious vortex that entraps any victims who fall prey to it. How does one fall prey to it? If the accused get defensive and say "no I'm not" it plays right into the hand of the accuser. As in this 10 year old scene from a SNL Weekend Update episode where Amy Poehler subtly accuses Seth Myers of having a small penis. Immediately after she jabs him with the joke she holds her hand up for a high five and says "up top." Listen to Seth's reaction.  

So it's a trap to fight against the accusation but it's also a trap to agree with the accuser. When we agree with their accuser, we can fall into a trap of shame and even look to our accuser for a solution, like my son did with the fraudulent Apple Tech support guy. Either way, too much attention is given to the accuser. The best thing is to just hang up. Because both the accuser and the accused can become what they hate.

You know the phrase, "it takes one to know one?" This is a phrase of empathy, which can be good. But even empathy has its pitfalls. Many say that compassion is better because, in the metaphor of someone falling in a pit, empathy gets down in the pit and both are now worse off, whereas compassion throws the fallen a rope. Now, in this age of Jordan Peterson mania, that sounds like something he would say (and I believe he does) and so I just threw up in mouth a little bit, but as with all truth, sometimes you find it in places that make it hard to swallow.  When we hate our enemies, we are apt to swing wide in the opposite direction and merely mirror the poor emotional health of our enemy. But consider a modification of that adage "it takes one to know one": It takes one to hate one. How much of my own intolerances are a result of my ‘dislike’ of my own weaknesses or past weaknesses in any particular area? Often my impatience manifests when I feel ignored or invisible. In traffic it appears. Often I see everyone as trying to block my progress or ignoring me or being insensitive or even thoughtless. At the same time, they're probably driving slow in the fast lane because they're compensating for years of having no power or voice or have been oppressed by others and this moment of power feels good to them, whether they know why or not. So our life-long developed pathologies are clashing on I-24. And if we hate or resent certain people its often because we either see their actions reflecting back to us what we don't like about ourselves OR the opposite: we're not like them at all and thus don't relate to their weaknesses and thus can feel superior and judge them, thereby hating them, and thereby becoming like them. Judgement of others and self keeps us in this fucking cyclical pit of stupidity and immorality. Take the shanty call center of scam hackers calling my son. They're trying to get rich and they can justify it because they resent other rich people. They may never admit this but the thinking is "They’re crooked, so we’re justified in being crooked too." Victims often become victimizers. And this is all about people acting, behaving, thinking in RE-action to others, only mirroring their adversaries, as opposed to acting, behaving and thinking from one's own core. To stay above the fray of insecure bullies and accusers and jealousy and resentment. To avoid such traps and swirling eddies that pull us into that muck and mire. We can and should assess and evaluate our circumstances and relationships all day long without falling into the trap of judgement. Blame, no matter where it lands, helps the situation. Honestly, keep in mind that every fucking human being on this planet is fighting the same battles-- with their history, their abuse, their shortcomings and insufficiencies, and most will never have the wherewithal or self-awareness to understands what's happening to them in real time, but you can! Listeners of EA podcast have such a huge advantage over the rest of the unevolved world because those people are losers and we're winners and if they only knew as much or had as much knowledge as we do, they too could be as cool and healthy as us. They probably don't even read books or go to therapy. It must really suck to be them...oh wait. I've become what i hate. Ground me William Shakespeare. "Suspicion always haunts the guilty mind." What? Say that again. "Suspicion always haunts the guilty mind." So by seeing myself as guilty, as bad, as evil, I'm more prone to be suspicious of everyone else? "Something like that." And by lifting myself out of guilt, by giving myself a break, by giving myself the grace and forgiveness that I would give my own loved ones, I help alleviate the suspicious lens through which I see others? When I assume that people driving slow in the fast lane, or people that over groom their lawns, or people that scam little old ladies out of their money, or people that are ignorantly afraid of people different than them, when I assume that they are bad people, I'm letting suspicion stifle what might otherwise be curiosity. Hell even apathy would be healthier than suspicion. "I don't care why that person's being a dick" is no less moral than, "I wonder why that person's being a dick?" One is slightly more mature than the other, but requires more energy than I might have at the time. As long as I don't let myself feel too superior to their assholery, because I certainly display my share of it in other contexts. It's kinda "live and let live" with just a tad more care than that, but not much. At the end of the day, it's saying yes to what is. This place, this planet, this human race is MAJORLY fucked up, and we don't help it get well by responding in ways that are either the same type fucked up or the opposite type fucked up, we're still adding to the fucked upness of the planet when we react in kind. Nietzsche wrote, "My formula for greatness in a human being is amor fati--a love of fate: that one wants nothing to be different, not in the future, not in the past. Not just to bear what is reality, much less hide myself from it, for all idealism is just dishonesty in the face of what is, but to love it. I want to learn more and more to see as beautiful what is the reality of things; then I will be one who helps make things beautiful. Amor fati: let that be my love henceforth! I do not want to wage war against what is ugly. I do not want to accuse; I do not even want to accuse those who accuse. Looking away shall be the only thing I say no to. And all in all and on the whole: some day I wish to be only a Yes-sayer."  Now Nietzsche was a white, straight European male in the early 20th century, so he may be afforded privileges that allow him to apply and practice that more thoroughly than others, but it is at least a virtue and value to which to aspire. Hatred is the easiest of emotions to invoke. Love requires self-awareness and intention. At minimal, we would do well to select our enemies carefully, for more often than not, we will become like them. Thus, if your enemies are people, those people will often define you. If you are not defined from without, you will be defined from within. My hunch is that we humans kinda need enemies and will create them if that role is vacant. I suspect the enemy is within all of us and thus can have the uniting effect of a common enemy, and yet, an enemy that we will not emulate. My tattoo defines my enemies as Fear, Pity, Resentment, Victimhood, and Insecurity. If we'd all resist these enemies within, without an ounce of shame for having them, we might be able to laugh and drink and eat and cry together with those we formerly identified as enemies. That's a tall order. But I've got a short life.

In summary, there are two paths of weakness, small creativity, and short-sightedness: 1) accuses others of the same behavior the accuser is doing, and the second judges others for the same behavior the judge ends up mirroring. Both are afraid, as we all are. The high road is refusing to let fear evoke a reaction we'll later regret. Just close the false virus pop-up, hang up on the scamming caller, journalists ignore our baby-president and keep reporting the news, stop judging yourself and thus others who reflect back to you what you either don't like about yourself or don't like about them, live with a clear conscience so you'll be less suspicious of others, and don't take yourself or the size of your penis too seriously.

Corey Kilgannon Ghost II video

http://www.thepaepae.com/self-hate-as-a-metric-of-intolerance/23098/

http://www.thepaepae.com/the-paradox-of-animosity/258/

https://www.fhu.com/articles/hate1.html

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag/enemy

Cass Midgley features two audio clips from talks that Tara Brach and Noah Lugeons gave on their podcast. I love the Hegelian Dialectic, contrasting two seemingly opposite things and forming a third, entirely different thing out of the clash, not unlike mammalian reproduction. Tara Brach and Noah Lugeons are necessarily opposites, but they contrast starkly. She's an American psychologist, a proponent of Buddhist meditation, and founder of the Insight Meditation Community of Washington, D.C. Noah is the founder and co-host of the Scathing Atheist Podcast. Each week he begins the episode with The Diatribe--a solo rant he writes himself and they are genius, whether you agree with him or not, his writing is amazing as is his intellect. We play his diatribe from episode 179 of the Scathing Atheist where he addresses Attorney General Jeff Sessions getting up and quoting the Bible to justify separating children from their parents. That's 7 minutes. And then a 45 minute talk by Dr. Tara Brach. I pulled this description off her website: "This talk explores how we can undo the identification with thoughts, emotions and feelings that keeps us landlocked and unable to trust and live from our naturally loving and radiant essence." In other words, we are less artificial and more authentic versions of ourselves when we stop trusting what our thoughts, emotions, and other people tell us we are. She's a bit woo-woo, new-agey, and buddhisty. But I love her. And remember, she has a Phd. in Clinical Psychology from the Fielding Institute, so not too shabby, right? Her talk is 45 minutes.

The segue music is by Dave Weckl called "Just Groove Me"

Thanks for listening, and be a yes-sayer to what is.

Scathing Atheist Podcast - Diatribe on Jeff Sessions by Noah Lugeons

Tara Brach's podcast