Evidence-Based Management

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This episode accompanies Module 9 of the course, which is about the appraisal of the data, information and evidence gathered within the organisation. The acquisition of this evidence is covered in Module 8 and its corresponding podcast episode.

In this episode we continue to consider some of the wider aspects associated with the use of organisational data. Why we can’t take it’s quality for granted; how it can be highly misleading if we don’t know where it comes from and how it’s created, and how people can continue using it for years in ignorance of its shortcomings.

The excitement around Big Data and data analytics is also discussed, to see whether these are all they are cracked up to be!  And we look at the complexity associated with key performance indicators (KPIs) which again can lock us into repetitive behaviour, without questioning their value.

Once again, the importance of taking decisions based on multiple sources of evidence is reinforced. 

Link to the video mentioned by Jeroen Stouten

Host: Karen Plum

Guests:

• Eric Barends, Managing Director, Center for Evidence-Based Management 
• Martin Walker, Director of Banking & Finance at Center for Evidence-Based Management
• Jeroen Stouten, Professor of Organisational Psychology, KU Leuven University
• Ravishanker Jonnalagadda, Senior Expert Data Science, People  Analytics , Novartis Healthcare 

Find out more about the course here:   https://cebma.org/resources-and-tools/course-modules/ 

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This episode accompanies Module 8 of the course, which is about the data, information and evidence gathered within the organisation to aid our multi-source evidenced-based decision making. The appraisal of this evidence is covered in Module 9 and its corresponding podcast episode.

In this episode we consider some of the things we need to think about before either using existing organisational data or collecting data specifically geared to address our question or area of interest. As with other sources of evidence, there are a myriad of obstacles and roadblocks to be aware of in our search for organisational data and information to inform our decision making. 

There is a tendency for people to place organisational evidence in high regard, but as we will see, this faith can often be misplaced – not for nefarious reasons, but in some cases simply due to a lack of understanding when designing systems, or using data that has been churned out for years without anyone just asking where the data comes from.

As ever, we keep asking questions!

Host: Karen Plum

Guests:

• Eric Barends, Managing Director, Center for Evidence-Based Management 
• Martin Walker, Director of Banking & Finance at Center for Evidence-Based Management
• Jeroen Stouten, Professor of Organisational Psychology, KU Leuven University

 Article by Jeffrey Pfeffer & Robert Sutton 

Find out more about the course here:   https://cebma.org/resources-and-tools/course-modules/ 

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This episode accompanies Module 7 of the course, which is about judging the quality of the evidence from the scientific literature that we’ve identified during our earlier searching. This module aligns to chapter 7 of the Evidence-Based Management book.

Modules 5, 6 and 7 all focus on the scientific literature, so when you listen to the corresponding podcast episodes, the picture will hopefully be complete. 

In this episode we look at the process of learning how to appraise the studies, and what their findings mean in the context of the real world that we are faced with. If something is statistically significant and there is a large effect size measured by the study, does that mean that the finding is practically relevant for our organisation? 

Evidence from the scientific literature is undoubtedly important, but shouldn’t be emphasised more than other sources of evidence and it’s good to be reminded that it’s only when these come together than we can really make an evidence-based decision.

Host: Karen Plum

Guests:

• Eric Barends, Managing Director, Center for Evidence-Based Management 
• Denise Rousseau, H J Heinz University Professor, Carnegie Mellon University
• Rob Briner, Professor of Organizational Psychology, Queen Mary University of London
• Lisa J Griffiths, CEO, OzChild National Support Office

Find out more about the course here.

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This episode accompanies Module 6 of the course, which is an introduction to the scientific literature that can be used as part of our evidence-based management decision making. This module aligns to chapter 5 of the Evidence-Based Management book.

Modules 5, 6 and 7 all focus on the scientific literature, so when you listen to their corresponding podcast episodes, the picture will hopefully become more complete. 

In this episode we look at different aspects of the scientific world – what motivates academics to study the topics they research; the pros and cons of lab and field studies; and how to approach academic studies to get the most from them (don’t try to read them cover to cover!). We also discuss the importance of statistical significance and effect sizes in research and their practical relevance in the real world.

Host: Karen Plum

Guests:

• Eric Barends, Managing Director, Center for Evidence-Based Management 
• Denise Rousseau, H J Heinz University Professor, Carnegie Mellon University
• Rob Briner, Professor of Organizational Psychology, Queen Mary University of London

Find out more about the course here.

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This episode accompanies Module 4 of the course, which is all about assessing the quality and reliability of the evidence from practitioners – people who have experience with the problem we are tackling, or the solutions we are considering. 

Modules 4 and 3 are difficult to separate fully, so please refer to episode 3 of the podcast for the rest of the discussion about practitioners. In this episode we discuss the impact of the most important biases and talk about how to be alert to our own biases and those of others. 

We consider the role of the evidence based practitioner and the challenges of getting a clear understanding of problems and solutions from practitioners who may not always be as clear or succinct as we might wish. This is where careful listening and questioning are absolutely critical, together with challenging assumptions - both our own and other people's. 

Finally we discuss the 3 criteria used to assess the reliability and trustworthiness of practitioners and experts, including consultants that seek to identify themselves as experts with particular problems and solutions. 

Host: Karen Plum

Guests

• Eric Barends, Managing Director, Center for Evidence-Based Management 
• Rob Briner, Professor of Organizational Psychology, Queen Mary University of London
• Dr Christina Rader, Associate Professor with Tenure, Department of Economics and Business at Colorado College 

Find out more about the course here:   https://cebma.org/resources-and-tools/course-modules/

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This episode accompanies Module 3 of the course, which is all about acquiring evidence from practitioners – people who have experience with the problem we are tackling, or the solutions we are considering. 

Modules 3 and 4 are somewhat intertwined, so the rest of the discussion about practitioner evidence will be in Episode 4. In this episode we consider the choice of practitioners (people with expertise, not just opinions) and how we gather information from them. Asking questions (the focus of Module/episode 2 is critical here, and emphasis is again put on not jumping to solutions, even though it’s so tempting!

There is also discussion about the use of questionnaires – including some guidance about where to start (at the end) and how to get the best results - keeping the questions simple, testing understanding of the questions before launch and ensuring you know exactly how you’re going to use the data. 

Host: Karen Plum

Guests

• Eric Barends, Managing Director, Center for Evidence Based Management 
• Denise Rousseau, H J Heinz University Professor, Carnegie Mellon University 
• Dr Christina Rader, Associate Professor with Tenure, Department of Economics and Business at Colorado College 
• Dr Lisa J Griffiths, CEO, OzChild National Support Office

Find out more about the course here:   https://cebma.org/resources-and-tools/course-modules/

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This episode accompanies Module 2 of the course, which is all about asking questions – critical questions to understand what the problem is that we are trying to solve. This is because so often in organisations we leap to solutions without being clear what the problem is.

This approach can be driven by a desire to do “stuff”, to get things done and to feel that we are making progress. But how many times is a solution delivered and it doesn’t seem to do the trick? Maybe that’s because not enough time was taken to understand the nature of the problem before jumping to solutions.

So we need to ask questions – lots of them. Asking them in the right way, of the right people, at the right time is vital.

By being constructive in our questioning, we can make a contribution to the decision making process even if we are not experienced, not powerful or not senior in the organisation. Sometimes the inexperienced have a better perspective because they don’t make so many assumptions and will be more easily forgiven for asking the "daft questions". 

In other words “question everything”!

Host: Karen Plum

Guests:

• Eric Barends, Managing Director, Centre for Evidence Based Management (CEBMa) 
• Denise Rousseau, H J Heinz University Professor, Carnegie Mellon University 
• Dr Lisa J Griffiths, CEO, OzChild National Support Office

Find out more about the course here:   https://cebma.org/resources-and-tools/course-modules/

Send us a message with your thoughts or reactions

This episode accompanies Module 1 of the course which covers the basic principles of evidence-based management and gives an overview of the steps involved in taking this approach. 

Everyone uses evidence when making decisions, right? But only one source, or many? And are those sources assessed for their reliability and trustworthiness? Are we actively trying to identify the biases that so often lead us down the wrong path?

There is a fundamental problem with how many decisions are currently made in organisations so the first important realisation is examine current practice and to identify the problems of this approach. And then to appreciate that many current sources of evidence (i.e. colleagues, experts, gurus and academics) might not be the best sources of reliable evidence.

And really, who has time to take an evidence-based approach, when organisations just want to get on with "stuff"

This is tricky territory which needs careful navigation as our guests discuss.


Host: Karen Plum

Guests:

• Eric Barends, Managing Director, Center for Evidence Based Management (CEBMa) 
• Denise Rousseau, H J Heinz University Professor, Carnegie Mellon University 
• Rob Briner, Professor of Organizational Psychology at Queen Mary University of London 

Find out more about the course here:   https://cebma.org/resources-and-tools/course-modules/

Send us a message with your thoughts or reactions

This episode gives a background to the course - how it was created, its founding principles, the science behind the “learning by doing” approach used by the course (which shows that it is evidence-based!), and how to get the best out of it.

The course design recognizes that students come from a variety of backgrounds and have different experience and perspectives. Some study as a preparation for a career in management, while others are already managers who want to make better decisions and critically appraise the evidence before them. Some people study with others – either as part of a college or university course, or within their organisation - while others study by themselves. 

Whether you are a lone learner, or a part of a group, there are tips and recommendations from our learning and subject experts which will hopefully help you understand how to get the best from the course. You will also learn what other students enjoy and find challenging about this method of learning.

The podcast is a companion to the course – another way to engage with the material, to deepen your learning as you progress through the modules. 

Author mentioned by Erin: Ken Koedinger

Host: Karen Plum

Guests

• Eric Barends, Managing Director, Center for Evidence-Based Management 
• Denise Rousseau, H J Heinz University Professor, Carnegie Mellon University 
• Rob Briner, Professor of Organizational Psychology, Queen Mary University of London
• Erin Czerwinski, Manager, Learning Engineering, The Simon Initiative, Carnegie Mellon University

Find out more about:

•  The online course: https://cebma.org/resources-and-tools/course-modules/
• The e-Textbook on Evidence-Based Decision Making (2026): https://cebma.org/resources/cebmas-e-textbook-evidence-based-decision-making-for-organizations-public-policy-and-practice/ 

There is an update to this episode, recorded in June 2026, which plays before the episode

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Show notes

Welcome to the Evidence-Based Management podcast – dedicated to those studying evidence based practice in the field of management.

This episode introduces the regular podcast contributors – those that have been writing, teaching, practicing and promoting evidence based management for the last 20 years. They are all authors of the online course and the book that accompanies it.

We hear about how they became interested in this practice, why they are passionate about it, and where we are today, some 20 years after the movement started.

 
If you are interested in the organisation ScienceForWork, mentioned by Rob Briner, you can find out more here:   https://scienceforwork.com/ 

 Host: Karen Plum

Guests:

• Eric Barends, Managing Director, Center for Evidence-Based Management 
• Denise Rousseau, H J Heinz University Professor, Carnegie Mellon University 
• Rob Briner, Professor of Organizational Psychology, Queen Mary University of London

Find out more about the course here:   https://cebma.org/resources-and-tools/course-modules/