For a long time, it was assumed that fatigue was a muscular phenomenon. It was thought be a set point and once you hit it, you couldn't go any further—like running into a wall. However, more recent research has showed that it's actually much more of mental phenomenon. Our brain shuts us down before our body does, in order to protect us from injury, exhaustion, or even death. (See: Tim Noakes's central governor theory and Samuele Marcora's model of fatigue, both of which we discuss in today's episode.) This presents us with an interesting conundrum: We have to get to know our fatigue extremely well, so that we know how to navigate all the signals it's sending us. Knowing when to ignore your brain's warning signs, and when to heed them, has far-ranging consequences for everything from endurance sports to creative work. So today we're teaching you the steps to help you learn how to dance with your fatigue.

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Click to pre-order Brad's new book, "The Way of Excellence," which Steve Kerr, nine-time NBA Champion, is calling "an absolutely beautiful book"

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We talk a lot on this podcast about the principles that underlie true excellence, so we’re especially excited when we see those core ideas exemplified in the real world. On today’s podcast, Steve, Brad, and Clay each pick one sports moment from this past weekend that illustrated a lesson (or three) about healthy competition, unpacking what you can learn from the Tigers and Mariners going 15 innings, A’ja Wilson’s third WNBA title, and the Chicago Marathon. All in all, we ended up with seven lessons about how to compete the right way.

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Pre-Order Our New Book, "The Way of Excellence," Today—And Get Great Bonuses!

To get a limited first edition copy plus great exclusive bonuses, pre-order The Way of Excellence from Amazon, Barnes and Noble, or Bookshop,org, and then fill out this form with your order number to receive your bonuses today.

Whether you are pushing your limits at the gym or on the track, practicing guitar, coaching or leading a team, honing a craft, practicing medicine, or finally taking on that big creative project, this book will help you create, contribute, maximize your potential, and be the best and most authentic version of yourself.

Steve Kerr, nine-time NBA champion and coach of Team USA, read an early copy and called it "an absolutely beautiful book...it captures a lot of what I believe as a coach."

Pre-orders are a huge help to us and the best way to support our work. They are also a great deal for you. As an "excellence, actually" listener, if you pre-order today, you'll get access to incredible exclusive bonus materials—including a professionally produced 90-minute masterclass, a workbook with interactive exercises for each chapter, a comprehensive reading list, and more. It's an absurdly good value.

1. Click to pre-order The Way of Excellence

2. Fill out this form with your order number to receive the bonuses.

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If you have a question for us, send an email to [email protected] or call our voicemail at ‪(646) 893-9503‬.

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Today, we're exploring the transformative power of curiosity, which is one of the most effective tools elite performers use in high-pressure situations. We'll explain how shifting from a mindset of fear or rigid confidence to one of open curiosity can change your biology and psychology, unlocking new levels of performance—whether you’re stepping up to a heavy barbell or presenting to a boardroom. It orients the brain way from a threat-based "avoidance" mindset, and towards a challenge-embracing "approach" mentality. Drawing on neuroscience, psychology, and real-world stories from elite athletes and performers, we're giving you practical tools to keep you curious in high-stakes moments.

Unedited transcript: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1z5-KGTToE5cGVHJQtfE2d5gF0aLYjKin-Ww8ADEzztw/edit?usp=sharing

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Is personal development and self-improvement making us better—or just more self-absorbed? In today's episode, we wade into the debate sparked by a recent New York Times article (link below) about whether the world of betterment is actually helping with personal growth, or just creating inward navel-gazing? We discuss how to think about the role of individual agency in a world of structural challenge, the pitfalls of hyper-optimization, and why nuance (and community) matter more than ever. We explore how to use self-help as a tool—without letting it take over your life. Whether you’re a self-improvement skeptic or a die-hard devotee, this conversation will give you new ways to think about growth, agency, and what it really means to be excellent, on both an individual and collective level.

"Is Today's Self-Help Teaching Everyone to Be a Jerk?" by Emma Goldberg: https://www.nytimes.com/2025/08/25/style/self-help-books-columns-readers.html

Unedited transcript: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mzKxdG-NcdRbzUsKH6IEMLGt3z5Z7Fln00AN1T4hN3U/edit?usp=sharing

If you have a questions for us, send an email to [email protected] or call our voicemail at ‪(646) 893-9503‬.

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Forget everything you’ve been told about toughness. On today's episode, we're taking on many of the macho myths that dominate sports, business, and social media. Is “pushing through the pain” just stupidity in disguise? Are Instagram’s chest-thumping “tough guys” actually the weakest of all? We'll unpack the lies we tell ourselves about grit, reveal why real resilience is nothing like what you’ve been sold, and give you the tips and strategies to build a toolkit that facilitates true toughness. If you’re ready to ditch the clown show and discover what toughness really takes, this episode is for you.

Unedited transcript: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-BVoxHDP06B6-gQSQftn8eD5iVfCkQol3gVedHF0waY/edit?usp=sharing

If you have a questions for us, send an email to [email protected] or call our voicemail at ‪(646) 893-9503‬.

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Before the 1993-1994 NBA season, coach Phil Jackson wanted to get his Chicago Bulls some help. They'd won the championship the previous year, but right before the season, Michael Jordan made a surprise retirement announcement. So Jackson called George Mumford—a meditation practitioner who was then teaching mindfulness in hospitals, clinics, and prisons—hoping he might be able to use the same techniques to help the Bulls deal with the stress of success and MJ's departure. Mumford would go on to work with Jackson through six NBA titles: the Bulls in '96, '97, and '98—after MJ returned—and the Lakers in '00, '01, and '02. He has since gone on to a long and successful career as a sports psychologist and performance consultant, teaching people how to stay mentally fit and resilient even amidst difficulty and uncertainty. We often discuss the importance of cultivating the ability to respond rather than react—and George Mumford has made a living out of teaching that skill to some of the world's best performers, including Kobe Bryant and Michael Jordan. Today, he discusses how to make yourself "flow ready," silence your "negative committee," use his 4 A's framework to deal with difficulty or pain, and manage the moment.

Unedited transcript: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LeQur4snw3Qe6IPSuhG597DQwPx_9kdVhxYw94xFOWA/edit?usp=sharing

If you have a questions for us, send an email to [email protected] or call our voicemail at ‪(646) 893-9503‬.

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As we transition into Fall, we've got a few ideas and strategies that we're trying to implement into our lives. Today we're sharing those with you, with the hope that they might also help give you some good momentum heading into the last quarter of the year. You can think of it as your Fall Performance Syllabus. We'll break down the importance of thinking through "set and setting" when beginning a task, how to nail transitional moments of your day (and overnight) with as few energy leaks as possible, and how to master the art of letting go by recognizing when you've got more work to do and when you just need to let things flow.

Unedited transcript: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tEoqmZ2Y_FCFWV1eoDTOnrTbLTW-j1g8i4tPCPGWA4Q/edit?usp=sharing

If you have a questions for us, send an email to [email protected] or call our voicemail at ‪(646) 893-9503‬.

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What role should work play in your life? How hard should you be working? And how can you do it in a way that's sustainable over years, or even decades? These aren't simple questions to answer, even if both the "grind like crazy to get ahead" and the "find your bliss" sets tell you that they are. Today, we've enlisted the help of Cal Newport to discuss healthy ways to think about how hard, meaningful work might fit into your life. You'll learn the difference between hard work and work that’s hard to do, why taking lessons from exceptional outliers might hurt more than help, a three-question heuristic that’ll help you evaluate tradeoffs between work and life, and how knowing your maximum effective dose can change how you think about exertion.

Unedited transcript: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ztEstpIhcaz7tCYne9QRxa4rtXH6kVnnCQEDx8rtIU0/edit?usp=sharing

If you have a questions for us, send an email to [email protected] or call our voicemail at ‪(646) 893-9503‬.

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The stories we tell ourselves shape our reality, heavily influencing our decision-making, behavior, and ability to bounce back from challenges. Which is why it's important to identify the "narrative values" that help frame the story of your life. These are the words that will impact how we show up in the world, and how we interpret what happens to us, affecting both our psychological and biological responses. Today, we discuss simple ways to identify the narrative values that are most important to you, the relationship (and important differences) between values and goals, and how to use values to help you navigate everyday life. Plus: the fascinating science showing how your brain is a prediction machine, and why acting on our values is even more important during times when we're feeling apathetic about them.

Unedited transcript: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ItRYor3-fvXuMW6bFY_oqT2A4kHxFdyS8Ibrzl3Eoy0/edit?usp=sharing

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We spend a lot of time on this podcast talking about how to achieve success in your own personal pursuit of excellence, but we don't spend all that much time talking about what happens after that: how do you sustain it? That's the question facing Cooper Lutkenhaus, a 16-year-old who recently ran a blazing 1:42 in the 800-meter race at the USA Outdoor Track and Field Championships, who provides the launching pad for today's discussion. But it's a question relevant to any of us, whether you've already reached some heights of success or you're still climbing to get there. (And we've even got some thoughts for those who feel like they've been climbing, without success, for too long.) Today’s episode is all about the strategies and habits of turning a moment of greatness into long-term excellence. We discuss structuring practice (and play) to facilitate encouragement and engagement, navigating both short-term and long-term feedback loops, staying true to intrinsic motivation rather than external rewards, and much more.

Unedited transcript: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NDKG39rLl64NR8jU0SBWbXTkaLdvJOmJjEyC13s2ioM/edit?usp=sharing

If you have a questions for us, send an email to [email protected] or call our voicemail at ‪(646) 893-9503‬.

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