Facilitation Lab Podcast

“A lot of times, people will think that they're experimenting because they're being scrappy and moving fast, but they're not learning as they go. The fundamental benefit comes when you stop and reflect and learn and improve.” Kai Haley

This week on the Control the Room Podcast, I’m excited to speak with Kai Haley. In addition to being a founder and leader of their Sprint Master Academy, Kai is Google’s Head of UX Methods and Processes. Through the development of design sprint and design thinking curriculum and training programs, she has created a community of expert facilitators at Google.

Listen in to learn more about Google Sprint Masters, the delicate balance between data and design, and how knowledge sharing creates resilient product teams.

Show Highlights

[5:27] The delicate balance between data and design

[11:08] The advent of the virtual facilitator

[21:35] Google Sprint Masters

[26:13] How knowledge sharing creates resilient product teams

[31:31] Embracing asynchronous meetings

Links | Resources

Kai on LinkedIn

About the Guest

Kai Haley, Head of UX Methods and Process at Google, works with teams to define product visions, drive successful user-centered products, and develop an innovation culture across all of Google. As Lead of the Sprint Master Academy, she also develops curriculum and training programs for Google’s expert team of facilitators.

Voltage Control is a facilitation agency that helps teams work better together with custom-designed meetings and workshops, both in-person and virtual. Our master facilitators offer trusted guidance and custom coaching to companies who want to transform ineffective meetings, reignite stalled projects, and cut through assumptions. Based in Austin, Voltage Control designs and leads public and private workshops that range from small meetings to large conference-style gatherings. 

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Intro: Welcome to the Control the Room Podcast, a series devoted to the exploration of meeting culture and uncovering cures for the common meeting. Some meetings have tight control, and others are loose. To control the room means achieving outcomes while striking a balance between imposing and removing structure, asserting and distributing power, leaning in and leaning out, all in the service of having a truly magical meeting.

Douglas: Today I’m with Kai Haley, head of UX Methods and Process for the UX community at Google. She co-founded and leads to Google Sprint Master Academy, where they train and mentor facilitators within Google. Welcome to the show, Kai.

Kai: Thank you for having me.

Douglas: Of course. So, Kai, let's share with the listeners a little bit of a backstory around how you became such a mover and shaker at Google.

Kai: I joined Google about nine years ago. And prior to that, I had been at Yahoo! for six years, working as a visual designer on the front page there. I started my design career right out of college by starting a design studio focused on complete communication and branding programs for startups in Silicon Valley. So I got my learning on the job initially, which was an amazing experience. Not always advised, though. And while I was at Yahoo!, I went back to school and got my masters in design at CCA, when I realized I really wanted to formulate my design process and practice. And at CCA, I was actually introduced to a designer and teacher from IDEO, and that's where I learned about UX methods and process and got very inspired by the IDEO method and what they were doing there. So I brought some of those back to Yahoo! but really found when I got to Google that there was a much more nurturing environment for design thinking and that kind of collaborative work.

Douglas: You know, it's so important to have that nurturing environment and the support to do the work. I was recently reading a lot of material around an FBI negotiator who was there in the early days, and there wasn't a lot of support, you know? So it was like kind of two jobs. One is learning the material and getting really good at the craft, but then also the diplomacy of trying to convince everyone around you that this new approach is much better.

Kai: Absolutely. And I'll be honest. When I first got to Google nine years ago, the UX community there was quite small. So they were just starting to develop the design-sprint way of working then. And a lot of the hard work that was done at that time was kind of building that culture or building the buy in of better ways to work together. So it wasn't necessarily a smooth and easy sailing process, but the environment at Google has always been receptive to experimentation and working on how to work better together.

Douglas: I think that's pretty clear from the Project Aristotle and all the research that goes into psychological safety and work rules and all those things definitely seems to be a culture of, how do we have better workplace culture and collaboration?

Kai: Absolutely. And that's actually one of the areas that I am focused on right now. In addition to, obviously, making better products, we always want to make more user-centered products, and that's one of our principles here. But my focus is on helping to make a great space for cross-functional collaboration, to really support the UX role and the UX discipline, both inside and outside of Google.

Douglas: So, I’m really curious. As an insider, you probably have some really interesting insight into this, but one thing I've noticed is this paradox between data-driven decisions and then kind of more qualitative type of decision making. And UX tends to kind of sit at the boundary of that, right? There's things that UX does that's quantitative and things that they do that’s qualitative. And Jake Knapp always talks about design sprint being so good at quick-and-dirty data before we're waiting around for perfect data. So I’m kind of curious what you found, having to use and leverage qualitative methods and approaches inside a company that's been known publicly to be so data focused and data driven.

Kai: You know, that's a really interesting question. Actually, there's a great video from my series Design Is […] called Design is [Data], if anyone is interested in deep diving into a case study on how design uses data to drive great design. When I was first—well, my second year at Google, I joined the search ads team, which is an incredibly data-driven team. And so that video outlines a project that we worked on, where we looked at how to leverage data to develop a design hypothesis and then use the data to push that design forward, meaning inform our decisions about design.

And working on Search at Google was incredibly transformative for me as a designer because it is so data driven and because it is so large, the user base is so broad, you really had to rely on the data to inform your intuition as a designer. So the qualitative aspect is really important, and we balance that at Google, where we do a lot of user interviews, more foundational research, where we try to understand how people think about things. And then we do experiment-focused either usability tests or we run an experiment on a specific portion of the traffic, like we would do a search, to take that hypothesis and see if it's working. So I always see it as like a balance of both and sometimes quite a delicate balance, especially if you are a UXer, which involves a really strong collaboration with your engineering team.

Douglas: Yeah. I remember reading this blog post years ago that I think came out of Google—yeah, it was Google Maps—and they were talking about drawing together. And so rather than the designers just sketching something, some brilliant solution, it’s like, well—and rather than just sitting down and talking—they're like, “Well, sketch out. Can you sketch with me while we're talking?” And they noticed this pattern that came out of a lot of their conversations, and they just took a step back and looked at all the drawings that their interviewees had sketched out while they were talking. They all had this dog-bone shape to them. So there was like this epiphany that, oh, wow, everyone has this kind of dog-bone kind of reality, where it's like you do a lot of stuff around your house and a lot of stuff around your work. And then there's this tiny little connection between the two. And then that epiphany that comes from some of the qualitative stuff could then be married with some data, even ML type stuff, that you feed in this insight into something that's more data driven then you could get some really powerful things out of it.

Kai: Yeah. And that's where the design sprint as a structured collaboration process is really helpful because you can bring the data into the UX conversation early, and you can bring UX and data into the product conversation, right, the product-strategy conversation. So that convergence in an efficient and fast is really where we see a lot of benefit.

And to the point you were making earlier about fast-and-dirty data, sometimes it's also making the time to engage with it, because we're always working against a deadline or moving very quickly. But if we don't stop and analyze what we see and what we know together with different perspectives, we miss a lot of opportunities.

Douglas: Absolutely. And I think that not only taking the time to smell the roses, but like you say, if it's this confluence of threads, because the product team's thinking about a certain set of concerns, the data team has concerns, the engineers have concerns, the designers have concerns, and that's the power of the cross-functional teams. But we don't always, even though we're working as cross-functional teams, we don't always take the time to stop and then kind of look around and ask some of these questions.

Kai: Yeah. And that's where that—I mean, I had a real aha moment in the sprint with one of our partners, where we had a data analyst in the sprint. And, you know, I asked this question, like, “Well, where is the drop off happening? You have this funnel, and people are coming in here. Can you go see what is the level of drop off?” And she pulled up the computer right then and there and said, “Wow, actually, we've got a 40 percent drop off at this point,” and that helped us to figure out what was actually going wrong with the design, and we could use that to help problem solve. So I was so excited by the data-analyst role after that. I was like, can we get a data analyst in our sprint?

Douglas: Isn’t it amazing when you get the teams together with different capabilities and then folks within different parts of the organization are going to ask totally different questions, but they might ask questions that they can't answer, because you've got the whole kind of, let's say, a gamut of capabilities brought together, amazing things can happen just in those moments.

And, you know, I've seen things within a design spirit that were orthogonal to the work we were doing. In fact, it just happened earlier this week. John's facilitating the design sprint, and I was dipping in here and there just to see how things were going. One of the times I was listening in, I heard them say, “I should totally use this in that community outreach project we're working on.” So it’s like they're making these discoveries that on the surface feel fairly trivial, but I'm convinced that without the design sprint, they would not have made those discoveries and that project would have suffered, or it would have been mediocre and not as good as it could have been.

Kai: Absolutely, yeah.

Douglas: I notice it because I love this stuff, but I think a lot of times folks have these tangential benefits that they don't even realize or definitely don't necessarily associate to the design sprint because it wasn't even the core product they were working on. There’s just these ancillary benefits.

Kai: Yeah. It’s interesting how we get so many ancillary benefits from design sprints, particularly also with relationship building, shared vocabulary building, shared knowledge. But now that we are not able to all actually be in a room together, at least at current, at present time, we don't automatically get those benefits. We actually have to think very intentionally about what do we need to get out of a session and design for it, whereas we used to get these added benefits without even necessarily looking for them. We would come in with, well, we need a product outcome, and then benefit from all these side conversations and the increased team building and all that stuff.

But now if we need to build relationships, so if we have a new team or we have new people that we're working with that we need to actually form stronger connections with, we have to intentionally design that because the virtual experience doesn't create it in the way that just being together does.

Douglas: 100 percent. And, you know, we've talked a lot about this notion that ultimately all of these virtual tools are in their infancy. It's sort of like the way e-commerce was in the early 2000s. We were still trying to figure it out, and what are the models that are going to stick? And Daniel talks a lot about, we've had thousands and thousands of years of learning how to meet in person, and we can lean on that knowledge and those customs. But virtually, we don't necessarily have the tooling and the skills where we can just walk into a room and it just naturally happens, like you're talking about. And so I agree it has to be highly designed in and really thoughtful.

And we talked a little bit about that in the preshow chat. It’s had an impact on the training programs. I guess I'm just curious what you found you now have to focus on to make sure that Sprint Masters is successful in this virtual world.

Kai: Well, we have to teach them to pay closer attention to that, whereas initially we would sort of take that for granted. You're going to get this by bringing everyone in a room together. The difficult conversations are going to happen. You just have to nudge a little bit to make space for it, to ask the right questions. Now you have to teach not just how to be a facilitator but how to be a very mindful facilitator that's aware of the science and psychology of the virtual space, which, as you said, is very nascent. So we are teaching something as we're learning it. We're modeling it and learning as we go, which is amazing. Also, I can't say that we've gotten it right right now. We're trying it out. But at the same time, we also need to teach people, Googlers, the methodology, so we have the foundational knowledge that they need to gain, which is, what is a design sprint? When do I use it? What do I use it for? How do I scope it properly? All the basics. And then, how do I be a good facilitator? And then, how do I be a good facilitator in a virtual space that I'm maybe not comfortable in and maybe I have to find new tools and techniques for how to build presence or even to consider, what do my facilitator values like and how did they play out here?

Douglas: Yeah. I love this notion of values-based facilitation. It can be really powerful because you can show up in a real, authentic way.

Kai: Yeah, absolutely. And everyone has to find their own way, and that takes time to build your practice and what you feel comfortable with, your authentic self.

Douglas: Absolutely. I think there's a reason that the notion of having a practice is to label it with the word practice because it takes practice. You know, we can't just read a book and expect to be a great facilitator. We have to try things on for size and see what doesn't fit and actually go do the work. We're going to have to be willing to stumble a few times, pick ourselves up, and learn, okay, that didn't feel very authentic. Let me try something different.

Kai: Yeah, it's amazing. And the different ways that people learn is a thing that I have to always remind myself of, because how I learn is not the same way as how other people learn. So we're trying to make space for sort of a diversity of approaches.

Douglas: Yeah. I think as much as we can be multi-sensory as possible to where no matter where someone's at at any particular time, they relate to what we're trying to convey. I think that's pretty huge. And the training, you talked about connection, being able to observe people and draw them in. Have you found any good tactics or are there things you're recommending to your Sprint Masters around how to think about that in the virtual space or what the tools can allow us?

Kai: Yeah, I think there's a lot of great resources out there, but one of the things that we, just at a basic level, are trying to teach our facilitators is this idea of creating. I mean, we talk about creating and holding space in the physical space, but creating and holding the virtual space and making not just room for voices, but giving each person the opportunity to speak and be present. And we have such limited time, so it can be really hard to balance that. And I think that's really forefront on my mind right now because the getting the product outcomes and asking the strategic questions and pushing the thinking, we all feel relatively comfortable with that. But to do it in a way where you create and hold this space, where people feel safe to be creative, they feel connected, like you’re saying, it really involves a delicate balance of speaking, being present, being called on, and a combination of, I hate to use the word icebreaker, but it's like activities that can be used to help us get to know each other better.

Douglas: Yeah, you know, it's funny. Icebreaker. Some folks dislike the term. And my perspective is that those are typically things that people throw around without much intention. Being true to what you were saying earlier, the virtual space requires even more intention than the physical space. And when we put those things in, we should be careful about what we're trying to accomplish and just be honest about it and communicate it so that it's well known.

Kai: Yeah. It's a great point about, I think especially in my early days of being a facilitator, I didn't have as much clarity when to use something like an icebreaker or an energizer or a “pair people up and talk about this thing” kind of activity and building that sort of the intuition of knowing, what do you need to do during, at what point throughout the sprint? When do you need to give people quiet moments to reflect? When do you need to build energy and get them feeling inspired and feeling seen or heard? Those are really nuanced things, and that's why I say I hate to use the word icebreaker because an icebreaker is something that you can just be like, “Oh, yeah, everyone stand up and organize yourself like a fruit.” Sort by size and color or flavor. And that's fun, and it builds energy in a room, but it's not the same in virtual. So you have to pick very carefully.

Douglas: Absolutely. Even turn taking can be challenging in the virtual space. It's like in the physical space, you can say, “Okay, let's just go in a circle.” In the virtual space, we have to think about new paradigms and what's our cadence and what are our signals.

Kai: Yeah. And it can be awkward and take extra time. And I'm just thinking, “Normally, this would take five minutes.”

Douglas: It's amazing because some things move a lot faster. You know, if we’re voting inside of MURAL or some other tool, it can go quite fast. And so we might have to intentionally slow it down so that it becomes more thoughtful.

Kai: Yeah, absolutely.

Douglas: You know, I think you guys share something in common with us in the sense that you tend to sometimes, or even often, have larger workshops, whereas a classic design sprint’s seven people. We've discussed in the past how we've both had workshops that are quite more numerous than that. And I'm curious what sorts of things that you're doing in the virtual space to accommodate for larger audiences.

Kai: Yeah. It's hard. I'll just acknowledge that because we used to do 20-, 30-person sprints. And also, when it comes to training, I used to—I’d be like, “Sure, I could train 60 people. No problem,” by myself in a room. But in the virtual space, because of the breakouts and it, just, it's different, so I have not run as many large sprints, though I did do a 45-person one two weeks ago. But what we do is we really rely heavily on breaking out into groups of five with facilitators within it. So it's just the scaled model. I just lean on my facilitator's more, and we'll make sure that each team has a POC or a lead of some kind.

I think it's possible—a lot of our Sprint Masters right now are just saying don’t do it, which I understand that. And I think we used to say don't do virtual either, because it's just too complicated. So I think eventually we will find ways. And I really appreciate some of the tips and tricks that I learned from your large-virtual-meetings workshop. Seeing how you manage a group of that size I think is really helpful because you do want to approach it really differently. You're not going to do the around-the-room “show me that special item off your desk and tell me the history” when you've got 45 people. So you are approaching it from a different perspective, but it can be scaled.

Douglas: Absolutely. So coming back to the Sprint Master training, I’m curious. Ultimately, Google is supporting this initiative, so there's clearly an identified business value. For the business folks that are listening, what's the real purpose behind—like, why spend the time to train all these folks? What does that really open up for Google?

Kai: Well, it enables us to work more effectively cross functionally, and I think I've—I don’t know how many times I've said the word cross-functional already. You can keep count—but there is so much value we all know that comes from that. And as a larger company, it's not a standard way of working. I think smaller startups will in general work more easily more cross functionally. But when you're in a larger organization with multiple product areas, working across products and working across end product and UX, more marketing, it's really critical to the success of the company. It's critical to understanding the business so that everybody who is working on product teams has that viewpoint across the company to working across those silos.

As the company grows, we need more and more people to do that work, to help with that work, and that's where the Google Spirit Masters come in. We train people across all the PAs, primarily in the UX discipline, but we do folks in some other roles as well, provide the training to them. And ultimately, they're not just running design sprints for their product area. So if you’re a Sprint Master on Photos, you might raise your hand to go run a design sprint for Maps or for Cloud. And that also creates cross pollination of ideas and allows you to leverage solutions that have worked in one part of the company in other parts. So there's a lot of value there.

It allows us to work, we say, to accelerate our collaboration, accelerate our innovation, because it helps us to work faster as well. And it's not just faster, but it's more effectively as a group because teamwork is always harder than individual work.

Douglas: I guess one thing that I always loved to visualize the positive impacts is this notion of kind of flipping around your discovery process, because so often integrations start to happen later in the cycle. Even if we're doing continuous integration and all these good things, it's like if we’re not doing a lot of this upfront discovery work together, then we discover those kind of break points later. And anyone in this, doing this work at all, knows that the later the discoveries happen, the more expensive they are to address. And sometimes it's too late because it's not going to make or break the project, but it would have created a little extra delight for the user, and it would have been cheap to do if we would've known about it early. But now it's too late.

Kai: Yeah, absolutely. And users don't care that the Photos team is different than the Maps team, you know? Users don't care that Search is a whole other team. Those product lines are not valuable to them. They pop back and forth across multiple suite of products, and we want that to be seamless for them. We want it to be the best experience it can. And when they're owned by different teams, that requires a lot of coordination.

Douglas: Yeah. It reminds me of Conway's Law. I don’t know if you’ve run across this, but most people that have actually written software have seen it numerous times. It's basically the statement that says that any piece of software is going to resemble the structure of the organization that wrote that software. And so what you're describing is exactly the manifestation of Conway’s Law, right? You've got these teams that are working on different portions, and at one level you could say they're working on different applications. But when, to your point, one of the user’s using it, they're using the system, not an application. And so they're kind of moving fluidly around that. And how cohesive it is is going to depend on how much you can bridge those boundaries of the organization structure.

Kai: Yeah. And that's, in some ways, what the Sprint Masters are an antidote to at times, right?

Douglas: That's amazing.

Kai: Yeah.

Douglas: So you talked a little bit in the preshow chat about this notion of resilient product teams and how the sprint can help with that process. So I’m curious. I think our listeners would enjoy hearing a little bit about that because I think it's fascinating.

Kai: Yeah. Actually, when I think about the resilience on my side, it's maybe less about the sprint process itself and more about how you build a self-sustaining community. And that resilience comes from operating as, like, a learning organization, which means taking the time to reflect on what's working and what's not working, and then focusing on improving the process as you go. You know, that's very standard when you think about a learning organization.

But the example that we recently had was as we had to pivot to moving all of our sprints to virtual and helping 400 Sprint Masters build confidence in the virtual world, also not being experts ourselves, we really turned to this group to build a platform where we could learn from each other. And that's where I see a lot of resilience happening, when you have a system in place for people to solve together the challenges or the things that they're facing, which means it's not me coming in and saying, “I know the answer here, and I'm going to teach all of you how to do this,” but people joining forces and saying, “I'm trying this thing over here. I’ve got an experiment running. I'm going to feed it back in.” And my team being that central hub that creates a space for that amplification and knowledge sharing so that we can rapidly adapt and build new ways of thinking. And that sort of comes from how you approach that evolution, how you approach a learning organization.

Douglas: Wow, yeah. I love this concept of the learning organization and this group that can facilitate and be a conduit for these learnings, to kind of come and be dispersed throughout the other teams and whatnot, I think that's a fantastic concept. And we talked a little bit also about embracing the experimentation mindset. And I've been referring to this as the sprint mindset in the context of design sprints and how it's so critical for folks to not only see the benefit. You know, we talked about the direct benefits of how it's moving your project forward and getting people aligned. And then also the ancillary benefits of, like, these weird connections or these epiphanies you have that influence other projects. Then, if you can leave that workshop and have these mindsets permeate all the work you do, then it has this kind of like compounding effect throughout the organization.

Kai: Yeah, absolutely. And it's something I've been thinking about a lot recently, and I think you know because I reached out to you for more resources, because I think this is something that it's not as easy as it sounds. You're like, “Yeah, just design and experiment and learn from it.” There’s a way in which oftentimes we will do things and we haven't fully articulated what it is that we want to learn from it. And I think that is one of the benefits or it's sort of the strength of the sprint process, where you go in and say, “What do we know, what do we don't know, and what do we want to know?” And a lot of times, people will think that they're experimenting because they're being scrappy and moving fast, but they're not learning as they go. And that's, like, the fundamental benefit comes when you stop and reflect and learn and improve. So I think it's incredibly valuable for any organization to look at how do we embrace experimentation and really figure out how to bake it into the way that you work.

Douglas: Yeah. I love that. We picked up this concept from the military, which is, you know, people always talk about lessons learned, but basically their stance on this is, like, people use the term lessons learned inappropriately. And most of the time, what they're talking about are lessons identified. And we haven't really learned the lesson until we've actually addressed it and done something about it. So we can identify it all the time, but if we don't actually make the change, we haven't actually done anything about it. We haven't addressed it. We're just located a problem.

Kai: Yeah. And that happens a lot. We're like, “There's a problem. There's a problem.” You move on to the next thing, and then you're like, okay. It's human nature, too, you know?

Douglas: Absolutely. And, you know, I think that's one of the beautiful things about facilitation and a lot of these methods is they're designed with human nature in mind and how we can take advantage of the good parts and use them against some of the things that are not so great about human nature.

Kai: Yeah, absolutely. I spend a lot of time saying, you know, “I'm trying to combat design fixation here. Don't spend too much time on that sketch. I don't want you to get too attached to that idea.”

Douglas: Yeah. I ran into a term recently called street psychologist, which I thought was pretty incredible. And I think essentially to be a great facilitator is you have to kind of have to be a street psychologist.

Kai: Kind of like an armchair—

Douglas: Yeah, exactly.

Kai: —an armchair psychologist, but we’re doing it from the street. I like it.

Douglas: I don’t know just enough to understand what we're dealing with.

Kai: Absolutely.

Douglas: So I'm curious. If you could change anything about most meetings, what would it be?

Kai: Well, that's a very broad question because I have all kinds of different meetings. A lot of my meetings are not bad currently. But I would say I find really, really large, kind of all handsy-type meetings to be ones that I often wonder why we do them. So I think there is a way in which sometimes we have meetings that don't really need to be in person or synchronous, as we say. And I think we could be more creative about how we deliver content asynchronously to people and that when we do bring people together, we design for people being together as opposed to a one-way delivery of content, because I often feel like now, even more than ever, a one-way delivery of content is consumed one way. So I would say really embracing when things are bi-directional or multidirectional and designing for that to make the most use of people's time when they're all actually being asked to be together at the same time.

Douglas: Absolutely. We often talk about, is a meeting purely informative, and if so, there's probably better vehicles than bringing everyone together unless we really want to get people's reactions. But if we're truly wanting to get everyone's reactions, like you say, it needs to be designed in a bi-directional way.

Kai: Absolutely.

Douglas: Excellent.

Well, Kai. It's been a pleasure chatting with you today. And I'm sure people are curious how they might be able to follow your work or get in touch or just kind of see more about what you are working on. How can they find you?

Kai: You can always find me on Twitter, @kaihaley, and LinkedIn. And then, of course, the designsprintkit.withgoogle.com is a great site where I post case studies and content for folks, if anyone’s interested more in our design-sprint information.

Douglas: Excellent. Thank you so much, Kai.

Kai: Thank you so much for having me. It was such a pleasure.

Outro: Thanks for joining me for another episode of Control the Room. Don't forget to subscribe to receive updates when new episodes are released. If you want more, head over to our blog, where I post weekly articles and resources about working b

"Make moments of fun, of celebration, and acknowledging that we're all accomplishing good things together. And micro celebrations and bigger celebrations and learn how to celebrate remotely." Mariano Suarez-Battan

In this episode, I'm very pleased to be speaking with Mariano Battan, CEO & Co-Founder of MURAL, a digital workspace that we at Voltage Control love to use both internally and for design sprints. Mariano says he loves to dream about new things, and sometimes he can make them come true.

Listen in to find out the power of purposeful silence, how to power up your team's imagination at work, and why you should be blocking out time for kids and coffee.

Show Highlights

[5:10] Multi-threaded thinking in the digital realm

[12:35] Blocking time for kids and coffee

[17:56] Powering up imagination at work

[26:09] Making space for celebration

[32:56] Purposeful silence

[37:12] Micro-celebrations, remotely

Links | Resources

MURAL

Mariano on LinkedIn

Mariano on Twitter

About the Guest

Mariano Suarez-Battan is the CEO and Co-founder of MURAL, a digital workspace for visual collaboration. He is accelerating innovation by providing facilitators with the tools and inspiration that they need to make global change. Before MURAL, Mariano created video games through his studio, Three Melons, which was acquired by Disney in 2010.

Voltage Control is a facilitation agency that helps teams work better together with custom-designed meetings and workshops, both in-person and virtual. Our master facilitators offer trusted guidance and custom coaching to companies who want to transform ineffective meetings, reignite stalled projects, and cut through assumptions. Based in Austin, Voltage Control designs and leads public and private workshops that range from small meetings to large conference-style gatherings.

Apple Podcasts

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Android

Stitcher

Voltage Control on the Web

Contact Voltage Control

Intro: Welcome to the Control the Room Podcast, a series devoted to the exploration of meeting culture and uncovering cures for the common meeting. Some meetings have tight control, and others are loose. To control the room means achieving outcomes while striking a balance between imposing and removing structure, asserting and distributing power, leaning in and leaning out, all in the service of having a truly magical meeting.

Douglas: Today I'm with Mariano Battan. Mariano's the co-founder and CEO of MURAL. He's on a mission to inspire, enhance, and connect imagination workers so that they can collaborate and problem solve wherever they may be. Welcome to the show, Mariano.

Mariano: Hello, Doug. And glad to be here.

Douglas: I'm really curious, Mariano. How did you get your start working in this field of bringing remote workers together to collaborate and do this imagine work and found a company to do that? It's amazing.

Mariano: It is. And I was fortunate to be a mobile or remote worker. Ten years ago, I had a video-games company, and that company ultimately got acquired by Disney. So I was working for Disney. I'm from Argentina originally, but I was in the Mountain View office quite often. So I was "remote" because I was not really remote; I was just, like, distributed right? So my programming team was in Argentina. I was mostly in the U.S. I was designing a new game called Emotions. I was using Keynote to collect inspiration, and we can go further into the problem, but that sparked the idea of having an online space that felt more like a whiteboard, felt more like a project room. That's how we started 10 years ago already.

Douglas: Yeah, it's amazing. You know, I watched your presentation from MURAL Imagine recently, and you were sharing how you got your start using PowerPoint, or just reflecting on how you use it and how that helps you collect your thoughts. And it really, the light bulb went off for me, because we always talk about prototypes can be anything that we bring together to help visualize our ideas. And so we often talk about how PowerPoint can be a prototype. And so MURAL, in a way, is a tool to help build prototype or ideas and present them.

Mariano: Definitely a tool in a space to make space as we call for imagination, right? The reality is that words are great in humans. We rely on them to communicate. But, yeah, a picture, multiple pictures, a diagram, definitely much more powerful than a description, especially an oral description. There's a lot been written on, yeah, the infamous Amazon six-pager. So it can do write ups. I think there's room for everything, right? There's definitely room for the write-up ones, the thought or the idea or the information is already cooked. But in that work in progress, I think there's more space for more flexible space to gather your thoughts, get reactions from others, and build together that idea. And then, yes, putting in a more linear way to share out.

Douglas: Yeah. It reminds me. One of my favorite facilitation techniques is just to listen and capture what's the words that are flying by. You are like, words are great, but. And that's the problem is when words are just word soup and they're all flying by and they just evaporate. It almost reminds me of one of those little videos or animations where, like, the thought bubbles are coming up and then just disappearing. And it's important that we capture all those things because if we step back and look at it, we can find and visualize where our discrepancies are. If someone says, "This thing needs to be magical," and someone else says, "It should not be magical," we need to understand, because they probably aren't completely disagreeing, but on the surface it appears so. But if we don't capture those things and visualize them, there's no way for us to dive in and understand that.

Mariano: You know it's funny that teams that capture an idea is that it shouldn't be one person doing describe role. It's all the people involved in a meeting or a workshop should be participants and active participants. And one of the important things, too, there is not only sharing, but also active listening, and active listening and hopefully also documenting, because it's amazing to see once people start documenting and other folks that are listening to a presenter or something, it's funny to see how they add new ways of seeing whatever comment or thought. It's amazing to see the gifs or sketches or icons start complimenting that core phrase that was said by someone.

Douglas: Yeah. It's like we talk about one of the tenants of facilitation being yes/and. And essentially what you're describing is the whole team is yes/and-ing silently and visually based on what's being said. And so one little thought nugget that someone vocalizes can be transformed, almost like in parallel—talk about distributed working, right? We're all in parallel or contributing to the same thing in a way that you just couldn't do. If it was synchronous, it would take us much longer.

Mariano: Yes. And I always wonder, like in the old way, when we were in person, and, I mean, one person was talking in a group of 10 or something, of course, other people were thinking about things. And as I said, like when I sort of- the good practitioners of this type of work. They were holding their own posts and adding their own things. But sometimes the synchronicity there failed to leave the trace, right? They would forget about it, or what I was thinking there. When I'm seeing workshops happening in a digital realm right now on MURAL, I'm seeing that there's a lot of, like, a multithreaded thinking going on, which I don't really know yet if it's good or bad, but it's something. It's true, because people were thinking anyway or reacting anyway to someone presenting. Now, this thing allows them to document that reaction to the presentations more fluidly. And I would love to make this a videocast next time so we can show some of that.

Douglas: Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's really fascinating because I've seen that phenomenon as well. And it's not just limited to presentations. I've seen it organically evolve, like even through a debrief or a fishbowl conversation, where you've got some folks talking, and then others are documenting and reacting to the talking. So they are contributing to Timestampwhat's being captured, and it's not just through one lens, right? If I'm a facilitator, I'm trying to capture as much as I can. But I definitely know there are moments where, "Man, there was something he said right before that. I totally forgot it." And, you know, so part of it's just kind of keeping up with everything, but also there's how we interpret it, how we just subtly yes/and it. It's really pretty incredible.

So there's a negative side to all of this awesome stuff that's happening. And I'm sure you're no stranger to this, having a tool, a software product, that is essential to remote work, and remote work just becoming the only way that we can work during the pandemic. You are just slammed with lots of new sign ups. And I'm sure that's just increased the number of meetings and the amount of coordination and things that needs to get done. And Zoom fatigue is a serious thing. And how do we, as meeting attendees, meeting facilitators, how do we address these concerns around remote facilitation?

Mariano: So there's a lot in that question, so I'll start with the fatigue part. As you can listen to my voice, I need a rest. I'm doing speech-therapy sessions and also learning how to speak. It seems like I've been yelling at the screen, right? I don't know how to speak, and I'm learning and relearning how to do that. So there's a lot of things around meetings, right? There's the being present and all the hours spent working and sitting down or standing up. There's the input method of audio for my voice that's not working. And yes, all of this gets accelerated with the fact that, in our case in particular, a lot of the world relies on us for a particular type of remote work. MURAL is not needed for all types of remote work. Probably, Zoom is much more ubiquitous and present, right? And they place all the blame on something like Zoom fatigue, where, again, they are a medium and a tool, and how people are using them is both good and bad and with other its implications.

But, yes, we're fortunate to be able to support a lot of folks that are interested in bringing imagination to their work, how we call it, right? So those important moments around planning, around strategizing, around defining the future, but also using visual methods in design and in Agile to help us reflect, to help us celebrate, and do certain things that are little abstract parts of work where it's super important, especially to align teams that are now all over the world.

So, yes, Doug, it's a responsibility because it's not just about letting people work, but also helping them improve how they work. It's not possible to run an eight-hour workshop online, or a three-day, eight-hour workshop online. And people are starting to quickly learn that, unlearn that, and learn the new way. So we've been doing a lot of work not only making sure that the systems are stable, scaling, trustworthy, but also bringing in features and know-how for the end users who are super under a lot of pressure and nervous because they're learning ways of working and ways of working remote. So it's tiring and rewarding.

Douglas: I would like to take just a moment to talk about that. You know, I've definitely experienced just exhaustion from having to pivot my company and make sure that things are pointed in the right direction and all that. And I actually started having massive headaches. It turned out it was a lot from eyestrain, so I had to adjust my monitors, get new glasses with blue blockers, and progressive lenses. I'm getting old, Mariano. So I'm curious if you have any tips, any advice for folks that are, how can we step away from this stuff or how can we adjust our imagination work and how we use the tools to make it less stressful, or whatnot?

Mariano: Sure. There's definitely, like, a design of the day and the week component to the question, and then in particular, going into the actual work. And things that I've been doing to design the week is explicit about designing the week and the day, and then things happen and we change it. But at least filling the time to say, okay, what would I like to accomplish this weekend? What would I like to accomplish for myself, for my family, and for the business, too? So in the last few weeks, I didn't respect it much, but in the beginning of the pandemic, in the first couple months, very much, which is two hours per day blocked for kids and coffee. I mean, in the middle of the day so that we can also do exercising with kids. So it's like I hit two birds with a stone, and everybody is happy about that. And of course, time to reflect and time to plan baked in in the beginning and the end of the week.

Douglas: So, I want to dig into this exercise with the kids. So tell me how that works.

Mariano: Well, it's hard to be a teacher. I mean, especially if you're all day and being a "teacher" inside your company. So with kids, your level of energy's low, so I found the best play sessions with them are also, in a way, facilitated. I've been doing sessions where we design a project or we design a bike route. And those are the ones that are more rewarding, where there is like a little bit of planning time, a little bit of execution time, and then reflection time. Or I bought a set of cones, for example, and we put in the street entrance and designed, you know paths for exercises. We run here, we walk there, run sideways here maybe with the ball, because if not, it's very loose. Play is really hard to deal with, especially as an adult. You don't have the power, infinite power of imagination that the kids do have. So, yeah, little scripted has been helping me. And of course it's hard to persevere. But I come back every week, and at least once in that week, I go back to some sort of script method.

I've actually been thinking about how to take that to work, right, because in the old way, maybe, like, last year, for example, we were able to bring the whole company to Argentina for a week, and we had a lot of time to just hang out. But really, I always thought about the hanging-out part of work. I say something that also got me a little nervous because I thought we could be using it for better work. I mean, in a way, as a fan of sports, right, I like that sports car, like a beginning, a middle, and an end. They have rules, and then you can do some improvisation in the middle. But you know what the purpose of the get-together is, when it comes to work, water-cooler time, I never found that super interesting.

So, yeah, trying to guide just play time and not scripted time, but using scripted and play-guided script to help us bring in the creative juices, level the playing field for introverts and extroverts, to be able to participate, and try to persevere in doing that over and over so that we can get better at it because it's not easy to connect with people through a screen.

Douglas: Yeah. It reminds me of this BBC report that I read that said most pointless meetings are actually a form of therapy. And the thing that became really clear to me was, well, if that's the case, we should be intentional about it rather than just letting it organically happen, because people need it. Let's program it in and make sure we have really good therapy and we really check in. And, you know, I think that's a reason why a lot of people design an icebreaker. It's unfortunate the way a lot of it develops, though, because when it's not really intentional and not tied to the purpose, there's a real missed opportunity because we can do something that's gracious and purposeful. And again, it can take us a bit further. But you're absolutely right that we have to have time for the team.

Mariano: Yeah. Making time for no goals but structured play is interesting.

Douglas: Yeah. I want to come back to the ninja course that you built out in your driveway. Did you guys use MURAL to plan it before you went out to put it together?

Mariano: No, dude. It's too much in front of Mural, it's uh-

Douglas: No doubt. That's like trying to get away, right?

I've always respected MURAL for your efforts to support facilitators. It's very clear that as a design and product consideration, when you're thinking about your roadmap and building features to support what we do as facilitators. And so I'd just like to hear a little bit about your philosophy around why that's important and where you see it could go, not in so much in the sense of, like, what's next on the roadmap, but from a philosophical standpoint. Like, where could that take us?

Mariano: Sure. So you mention mission early on or on imagination workers and powering them up globally. So when I talk about why we do what we do, and generally, I start with imagination and making room for imagination at work, make space for imagination at work. But imagination at work is not easy, right. For some of us, for certain cases, it may come naturally, but there's a lot of paralysis. So that's why we also believe—and we learned this early on in our journey—that the guided methods that people like you, Douglas, like, consultants and folks that are thinking of how to make this type of work happen—have put together alignment diagrams and methods were key to bring these teams together and ultimately help them with the job of creative problem solving and creative problem solving. So that's one part, right? Like, we don't support all types of work in MURAL. We just don't need it for everything.

But when there's something big to go through with, again, workshop-type mindset, you should probably rely on MURAL for that. And you should rely on MURAL whenever and wherever you might be. I mean, the idea that we go to innovation centers to innovate, that was always interesting to me because shouldn't we be innovating in small and big scale all the time? So that's the obvious thing around remote work that we support.

But then the fourth bucket, pillar, or vector, whatever we want to call it, that we care about is facilitation. And as you mentioned, that we have a team focus on that. We have content based on that, because you observed at the best-run meetings there are some professional facilitators, or someone takes the role or many of them take the role of a facility—well, facilitation, right?. Like, doing facilitation. So we believe it's a core competency for now and the future and because of the need for more multidisciplinary teams. And yes, and doing this in person is hard. Doing this remotely is virtually impossible. So that's why we tried to do a lot of community, a lot of content sharing, and a lot of little features in the product that we believe could be great for folks like you to be able to guide, to ask questions, to bring a little bit of fun and play into these meetings, and, ultimately, make your participants achieve the end goal of the meeting.

Douglas: Yeah. It just dawned on me that good agenda design can also really improve this sense of Zoom fatigue and meeting fatigue, because if we're just going back-to-back meetings and there's not a good sense of closure, there's no good arc—I mean, imagine if you went to the movies, and you watched a movie, and every movie just ended right at the climax, and then you were right at the next movie, and it's just like action just thrown at you the entire time, there's no on-ramp. It'd be like having to jump off your—you're flying to Cincinnati, and you have to jump off and parachute down to get off the plane.

Mariano: I'm watching the timer right now in the podcast software. I'm realizing at minute 22, 23 now, and yet being aware enough of time, of first starting the meeting also with a purpose, right? Why are we meeting? What's the end goal of this meeting? And trying to have an agenda, but also acknowledge that maybe there's some flexibility that you can bake into that agenda. And if you're not able to close the meeting, probably there are two things. One is if you're consistently not closing in time, probably there's like a meeting design there, you might need more meeting time or more workshop time in the future to make sure that you get to closing. Or the nice thing about this remote situation that we're all in is that you can also call it a pause, right? And open up the next day or next week. People are starting to realize that they can unbundle workshops and unbundle meetings and not squeeze out everything from that workshop that first day. So there's a little bit of flexibility in my malleability that we're able to do to have here in the work that we have right now where we are all peers and that we're checking in digitally to the space.

Douglas: I love that concept of unbundling and how we can split workshops apart. And I'm going to switch gears here a little bit and talk about something that I heard from one of your MURAL employees, Hailey Temple, I was sharing a Loom over. There was something neat that I'd found about how I was using MURAL, and I was trying to explain it to her. And I thought, "It'd be so much easier just to record a quick Loom so she can see what I'm talking about." And then she's like, "Oh, I love Loom. Mariano always records really great Looms for the team to get us motivated." And I thought to myself, that's incredible. Such a great use of a tool for a distributed team to get them excited and motivated. So I would just love to hear some inspiration you might be to offer other leaders. Like, what should they be thinking about? Why do you use these tools to send videos out to the team? Why is that important? And how can we motivate our distributed teams?

Mariano: Sure. So, yeah, normally it's about recording media, screen recording video. There's another one called Vidyard that's more customer facing. And there's probably a few others. And so, we went through a very tough time, right, in last six months now, maybe four, depending on the part of the world. We're hitting our lowest pandemic rate. It's not a, we say, to work from home when we're walking around and being free of working on the beach or whatever. People are locked down in their houses in Argentina, where a lot of our guys are for 120 days now or so. So it's super, super tough to order them. So, acknowledging that and acknowledging it in a way that it's, again, as a human as possible is important, and I'm putting that on video. And on video that I generally compliment with a MURAL, with some visuals to explain that it has been a good practice and something that people appreciate. And it doesn't take me much time, and people can watch it in whichever time they want. And, yeah, I'm getting positive reactions because I appreciate their work; knowledge that it's not easy; share some thoughts, ideas, and plans.

And another thing that we do also and we did and I was super happy how it all went out is that we made space for celebration also. When we wrapped up our very challenging, positively challenging quarter in June, in November we coordinated to make sure that we sent boxes to everybody in the company with a little mimosa kit and a little pub party bulbs and content and Schwab from the company to each of them in their homes. And I made time to celebrate. And I came back to the message that I was repeating over and over and over with new people coming in. It's necessary in those Loom videos. And I repeated that message again on the accounts where we celebrated. Acknowledging that, again, we had accomplished something big together, and because we worked as a team and that now was a good time for us to acknowledge all of that and celebrate. And there was probably one of our, like a good moment where we also came together as a team and reflected back on those initial plans videos into something that came full circle. And I look forward to doing more of those again.

Douglas: That's amazing. I have been thinking a lot about tactile objects and supplies and things, and bringing that into your workshops or you're all hands or any kind of experience. Just because we're all distributed and we can't be in office together doesn't mean we can't send everybody the T-shirt or the awesome care package. That's really great.

Mariano: There's a company called Sliced in New York, and they call it an API to sell pizzas. And I've been thinking a cool feature for the future would be, like, press button, send pizzas, through MURAL. So we'll see how that goes, and it gets complicated with global teams, though.

Douglas: Yeah, no doubt. Incredible.

So one of my favorite questions is around meetings, of course, on my mission to help people have better meetings everywhere. And I'm just curious what your go-to is. If you could change anything about the way most meetings are run, what would it be?

Mariano: I mentioned something before, right, so I think there's two things. One is acknowledge which type of meeting it is, and related to that, open up with the end goal of the meeting. For example, when I do first candidate meetings on recruiting, I try to be really curious, but very explicit about the end goal of this meeting is to see if we could be a fit for each other. I took that one from sales training, actually. There's a firm that we hire called Winning by Design that I really like. And they teach the sales guys to open up with appreciate taking the time today. Check time. Do you still have 30 minutes for us to go through this meeting? And the third thing is the end goal of this meeting is to see if we could be a fit for each other. And the corollary of that also is if in the middle of this meeting we believe that we're not a fit for each other, for whichever reason, we accomplished the goal, and we can end the meeting earlier. If we also accomplish the goal of, we can, we can be a fit for each other, great. And maybe you do another check in later on to accomplish another goal, which is go deep into your requirements or go deep into your background to understand if we are a fit for each other.

So I think that opening up, we have very clear goal is something that is very important. And the other thing that it's also related to the beginning is related to checking in. So checking in, fully checking in as individuals, as collaborators, and acknowledge that that's our goal, which is the role of each other, and how are you going to be participating here? Not as spectators, hopefully, or if you are spectators, acknowledge it and claim your role, but also acknowledging that maybe you're not needed for a meeting and that's okay. So goal first, roles and responsibilities second, and checking in, and checking in with a fun exercise that gets the creative juices going.

Douglas: Now you've got me curious. What is your favorite check-in exercise?

Mariano: This is not my favorite one, but it's a funny one. The other day, I put up the lyrics of Despacito, the song. And I had each of my leadership team members go for a phrase. And it was hilarious to hear the English-speaking guys trying to sing Despacito in English.

Douglas: That's amazing. That reminds me of one that, essentially, everyone, first round, puts a name of a song, like a hit song, one of those songs that just gets stuck in your head, you know? So everyone contributes one, and then we shuffle them up. And then everyone draws the name, and then you have to sing that song. So you had to sing the song you randomly drew. And yeah, it's a little awkward.

Mariano: So, I mean, a question that we ask new team members to reply to when we introduce themselves to everybody else. The first one is, like, how you plan to make an impact. Sorry—so, first of all, why did you choose MURAL? The second one is, how you plan to make an impact. And then the third one is, tell us something weird about you. So I think that—and why are you in this meeting, how you plan to make an impact in this meeting, and then something fun are all things that we could bring into important big meetings.

Douglas: Yeah, that's great. You know, it doesn't have to be the all hands for, you know, someone's new. That's when you could be pretty evergreen, those questions, especially if you shift them from the company to the meeting, it's awesome.

So I'm curious. What have you recently discovered or kind of bumped into that gives you hope and makes you curious?

Mariano: That silence was on purpose. So the use of silence, right? I mean, as evidenced by my voice, I have not been silent enough. I mean, talking, talking, talking, pitching, pitching, pitching. And silence, two observations. One is from the sales training, was, like, leave space after a question. Let them answer, and let them continue answering. Let you're, the person you're interviewing, just go for it. And the other day, we invited Maria Judis to talk, and she opened up with a silent moment, and also put together, like, a little sticky note with on camera that said, "Wait," and says, "Yeah. Why am I talking?" And as a moment to, again, leave space for others to do that, especially someone they want them to share, it is close and so on. So, yeah, the use of silence. And it's weird in a remote environment because sometimes silence is catalyzed via a faulty mute set up; or bad connection; or am I talking? You're talking? And people don't want to bump into each other. So, yeah, I mean, silence as a tool.

Douglas: I love it. And that's the second time "wait" has appeared on the podcast, so it's a popular one in these circles, especially with active listening being so critical to facilitation. So I love that you bring that up.

I've even been exploring with using MURAL as a tool to allow us to play with silence. And so we'll do some work in the plenary session where everyone's together in the main Zoom room. And then I'll send folks into the MURALs to do some work. I won't send them to the breakout rooms yet, but they're already working in their breakout-room area in the MURAL. The reason I don't send them to the breakout room yet is that it's much easier to enforce that silence, because if anyone starts talking, then another group can hear them. And so if I send them to their breakout rooms immediately, then they all start talking in the breakout rooms. And so designing around that silence can be a real powerful thing.

Mariano: You mentioned that we have a facilitation team. That's one of things we observe, right? Besides unbundling and synchronous and synchronous work, even within the "synchronicity" of a meeting or a workshop, there are moments where you want solo work, small teamwork, plenaries, as you mentioned. And as a matter of fact, you showed me some of that when we were in the Google Sprint conference in San Francisco and you were facilitating your workshop on liberating structures. So I don't need to teach you. And I learned that from you. So we have a feature coming soon called private mode where people will be in private mode. We acknowledge that people also do breakout MURALs or breakout sessions in a MURAL. So we're baking that. As you know, there's a new celebration function in the product or the timer or the whole thing. So that's where we do most of our innovation, to be honest with you, right, on the little things that add up to what we call the facilitation superpowers, where yeah, it's two-hundred bucks for facilitators to be able to run better meetings. But a good practice, as you mentioned, is definitely leave time for solo work first and then share out.

Douglas: So, Mariano, I'd love to hear any kind of final thoughts you might have for the listeners. Anything that's top of mind that you'd love to share?

Mariano: Insist on celebrations. We're all going through a very challenging time. I mean, the virus, spikes are coming all over the world. We're going to have to go back inside. Winter will be coming soon in the northern hemisphere. Pay attention to the southern hemisphere, people that are shut down and in winter and cold. It's not fun there. So make moment of fun, of celebration, and acknowledging that we're all accomplishing good things together. And micro celebrations and bigger celebrations and learn how to celebrate remotely, which is super hard. And so that would be my ask for all of you.

Douglas: Excellent. Well, Mariano, it's been a pleasure having you on the show today.

How can folks find you if they want to look up your work, find MURAL, find out more about you. Where should they go?

Mariano: The website is mural.co. And my Twitter or LinkedIn, I use batmelon. It's a joke that I can tell the audience at some point, but it relates to Batman and Three Melons, my game studio. We tried to show up being dogs, being webinars, and inspire everybody with our brain to use it for imagination. We believe that imagination and collaboration, it's what makes us human, right? The Homo sapiens that started our civilizations imagined language, imagined civilizations, shared them with each other, and for small teams to be able to build civilization. And the good thing about computers taking over knowledge work and data crunching and other processing is that we can come back to this type of work that is so rewarding and so fun.

So follow us if you care about that. And thank you, Douglas, for also spreading the gospel of facilitation and reward work. Glad to be here in the show. And hello, everybody out there that are facilitators. We want to help you out, and reach out if you need anything.

Douglas: Thanks again, Mariano. It's been a pleasure.

Marino: Cheers, mate.

Outro: Thanks for joining me for another episode of Control the Room. Don't forget to subscribe to receive updates when new episodes are released. If you want more, head over to our blog, where I post weekly articles and resources about working better together, voltagecontrol.com.

“Make moments of fun, of celebration, and acknowledging that we're all accomplishing good things together. And micro celebrations and bigger celebrations and learn how to celebrate remotely.” Mariano Suarez-Battan

In this episode, I’m very pleased to be speaking with Mariano Battan, CEO & Co-Founder of MURAL, a digital workspace that we at Voltage Control love to use both internally and for design sprints. Mariano says he loves to dream about new things, and sometimes he can make them come true.

Listen in to find out the power of purposeful silence, how to power up your team’s imagination at work, and why you should be blocking out time for kids and coffee.

Show Highlights

[5:10] Multi-threaded thinking in the digital realm

[12:35] Blocking time for kids and coffee

[17:56] Powering up imagination at work

[26:09] Making space for celebration

[32:56] Purposeful silence

[37:12] Micro-celebrations, remotely

Links | Resources

MURAL

Mariano on LinkedIn

Mariano on Twitter

About the Guest

Mariano Suarez-Battan is the CEO and Co-founder of MURAL, a digital workspace for visual collaboration. He is accelerating innovation by providing facilitators with the tools and inspiration that they need to make global change. Before MURAL, Mariano created video games through his studio, Three Melons, which was acquired by Disney in 2010.

Voltage Control is a facilitation agency that helps teams work better together with custom-designed meetings and workshops, both in-person and virtual. Our master facilitators offer trusted guidance and custom coaching to companies who want to transform ineffective meetings, reignite stalled projects, and cut through assumptions. Based in Austin, Voltage Control designs and leads public and private workshops that range from small meetings to large conference-style gatherings. 

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Contact Voltage Control

Intro: Welcome to the Control the Room Podcast, a series devoted to the exploration of meeting culture and uncovering cures for the common meeting. Some meetings have tight control, and others are loose. To control the room means achieving outcomes while striking a balance between imposing and removing structure, asserting and distributing power, leaning in and leaning out, all in the service of having a truly magical meeting.

Douglas: Today I’m with Mariano Battan. Mariano’s the co-founder and CEO of MURAL. He’s on a mission to inspire, enhance, and connect imagination workers so that they can collaborate and problem solve wherever they may be. Welcome to the show, Mariano.

Mariano: Hello, Doug. And glad to be here.

Douglas: I'm really curious, Mariano. How did you get your start working in this field of bringing remote workers together to collaborate and do this imagine work and found a company to do that? It’s amazing.

Mariano: It is. And I was fortunate to be a mobile or remote worker. Ten years ago, I had a video-games company, and that company ultimately got acquired by Disney. So I was working for Disney. I'm from Argentina originally, but I was in the Mountain View office quite often. So I was “remote” because I was not really remote; I was just, like, distributed right? So my programming team was in Argentina. I was mostly in the U.S. I was designing a new game called Emotions. I was using Keynote to collect inspiration, and we can go further into the problem, but that sparked the idea of having an online space that felt more like a whiteboard, felt more like a project room. That's how we started 10 years ago already.

Douglas: Yeah, it's amazing. You know, I watched your presentation from MURAL Imagine recently, and you were sharing how you got your start using PowerPoint, or just reflecting on how you use it and how that helps you collect your thoughts. And it really, the light bulb went off for me, because we always talk about prototypes can be anything that we bring together to help visualize our ideas. And so we often talk about how PowerPoint can be a prototype. And so MURAL, in a way, is a tool to help build prototype or ideas and present them.

Mariano: Definitely a tool in a space to make space as we call for imagination, right? The reality is that words are great in humans. We rely on them to communicate. But, yeah, a picture, multiple pictures, a diagram, definitely much more powerful than a description, especially an oral description. There's a lot been written on, yeah, the infamous Amazon six-pager. So it can do write ups. I think there's room for everything, right? There's definitely room for the write-up ones, the thought or the idea or the information is already cooked. But in that work in progress, I think there's more space for more flexible space to gather your thoughts, get reactions from others, and build together that idea. And then, yes, putting in a more linear way to share out.

Douglas: Yeah. It reminds me. One of my favorite facilitation techniques is just to listen and capture what's the words that are flying by. You are like, words are great, but. And that's the problem is when words are just word soup and they're all flying by and they just evaporate. It almost reminds me of one of those little videos or animations where, like, the thought bubbles are coming up and then just disappearing. And it's important that we capture all those things because if we step back and look at it, we can find and visualize where our discrepancies are. If someone says, “This thing needs to be magical,” and someone else says, “It should not be magical,” we need to understand, because they probably aren't completely disagreeing, but on the surface it appears so. But if we don't capture those things and visualize them, there's no way for us to dive in and understand that.

Mariano: You know it’s funny that teams that capture an idea is that it shouldn't be one person doing describe role. It’s all the people involved in a meeting or a workshop should be participants and active participants. And one of the important things, too, there is not only sharing, but also active listening, and active listening and hopefully also documenting, because it's amazing to see once people start documenting and other folks that are listening to a presenter or something, it's funny to see how they add new ways of seeing whatever comment or thought. It's amazing to see the gifs or sketches or icons start complimenting that core phrase that was said by someone.

Douglas: Yeah. It’s like we talk about one of the tenants of facilitation being yes/and. And essentially what you're describing is the whole team is yes/and-ing silently and visually based on what's being said. And so one little thought nugget that someone vocalizes can be transformed, almost like in parallel—talk about distributed working, right? We're all in parallel or contributing to the same thing in a way that you just couldn't do. If it was synchronous, it would take us much longer.

Mariano: Yes. And I always wonder, like in the old way, when we were in person, and, I mean, one person was talking in a group of 10 or something, of course, other people were thinking about things. And as I said, like when I sort of- the good practitioners of this type of work. They were holding their own posts and adding their own things. But sometimes the synchronicity there failed to leave the trace, right? They would forget about it, or what I was thinking there. When I'm seeing workshops happening in a digital realm right now on MURAL, I'm seeing that there's a lot of, like, a multithreaded thinking going on, which I don't really know yet if it's good or bad, but it's something. It’s true, because people were thinking anyway or reacting anyway to someone presenting. Now, this thing allows them to document that reaction to the presentations more fluidly. And I would love to make this a videocast next time so we can show some of that.

Douglas: Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's really fascinating because I've seen that phenomenon as well. And it's not just limited to presentations. I've seen it organically evolve, like even through a debrief or a fishbowl conversation, where you've got some folks talking, and then others are documenting and reacting to the talking. So they are contributing to Timestampwhat's being captured, and it's not just through one lens, right? If I'm a facilitator, I'm trying to capture as much as I can. But I definitely know there are moments where, “Man, there was something he said right before that. I totally forgot it.” And, you know, so part of it’s just kind of keeping up with everything, but also there’s how we interpret it, how we just subtly yes/and it. It’s really pretty incredible. 

So there’s a negative side to all of this awesome stuff that's happening. And I'm sure you're no stranger to this, having a tool, a software product, that is essential to remote work, and remote work just becoming the only way that we can work during the pandemic. You are just slammed with lots of new sign ups. And I'm sure that's just increased the number of meetings and the amount of coordination and things that needs to get done. And Zoom fatigue is a serious thing. And how do we, as meeting attendees, meeting facilitators, how do we address these concerns around remote facilitation?

Mariano: So there's a lot in that question, so I'll start with the fatigue part. As you can listen to my voice, I need a rest. I'm doing speech-therapy sessions and also learning how to speak. It seems like I've been yelling at the screen, right? I don't know how to speak, and I’m learning and relearning how to do that. So there's a lot of things around meetings, right? There's the being present and all the hours spent working and sitting down or standing up. There's the input method of audio for my voice that’s not working. And yes, all of this gets accelerated with the fact that, in our case in particular, a lot of the world relies on us for a particular type of remote work. MURAL is not needed for all types of remote work. Probably, Zoom is much more ubiquitous and present, right? And they place all the blame on something like Zoom fatigue, where, again, they are a medium and a tool, and how people are using them is both good and bad and with other its implications.

But, yes, we’re fortunate to be able to support a lot of folks that are interested in bringing imagination to their work, how we call it, right? So those important moments around planning, around strategizing, around defining the future, but also using visual methods in design and in Agile to help us reflect, to help us celebrate, and do certain things that are little abstract parts of work where it's super important, especially to align teams that are now all over the world. 

So, yes, Doug, it's a responsibility because it's not just about letting people work, but also helping them improve how they work. It's not possible to run an eight-hour workshop online, or a three-day, eight-hour workshop online. And people are starting to quickly learn that, unlearn that, and learn the new way. So we've been doing a lot of work not only making sure that the systems are stable, scaling, trustworthy, but also bringing in features and know-how for the end users who are super under a lot of pressure and nervous because they're learning ways of working and ways of working remote. So it's tiring and rewarding.

Douglas: I would like to take just a moment to talk about that. You know, I've definitely experienced just exhaustion from having to pivot my company and make sure that things are pointed in the right direction and all that. And I actually started having massive headaches. It turned out it was a lot from eyestrain, so I had to adjust my monitors, get new glasses with blue blockers, and progressive lenses. I’m getting old, Mariano. So I'm curious if you have any tips, any advice for folks that are, how can we step away from this stuff or how can we adjust our imagination work and how we use the tools to make it less stressful, or whatnot?

Mariano: Sure. There's definitely, like, a design of the day and the week component to the question, and then in particular, going into the actual work. And things that I've been doing to design the week is explicit about designing the week and the day, and then things happen and we change it. But at least filling the time to say, okay, what would I like to accomplish this weekend? What would I like to accomplish for myself, for my family, and for the business, too? So in the last few weeks, I didn’t respect it much, but in the beginning of the pandemic, in the first couple months, very much, which is two hours per day blocked for kids and coffee. I mean, in the middle of the day so that we can also do exercising with kids. So it's like I hit two birds with a stone, and everybody is happy about that. And of course, time to reflect and time to plan baked in in the beginning and the end of the week.

Douglas: So, I want to dig into this exercise with the kids. So tell me how that works.

Mariano: Well, it's hard to be a teacher. I mean, especially if you're all day and being a “teacher” inside your company. So with kids, your level of energy’s low, so I found the best play sessions with them are also, in a way, facilitated. I've been doing sessions where we design a project or we design a bike route. And those are the ones that are more rewarding, where there is like a little bit of planning time, a little bit of execution time, and then reflection time. Or I bought a set of cones, for example, and we put in the street entrance and designed, you know paths for exercises. We run here, we walk there, run sideways here maybe with the ball, because if not, it's very loose. Play is really hard to deal with, especially as an adult. You don't have the power, infinite power of imagination that the kids do have. So, yeah, little scripted has been helping me. And of course it's hard to persevere. But I come back every week, and at least once in that week, I go back to some sort of script method. 

I've actually been thinking about how to take that to work, right, because in the old way, maybe, like, last year, for example, we were able to bring the whole company to Argentina for a week, and we had a lot of time to just hang out. But really, I always thought about the hanging-out part of work. I say something that also got me a little nervous because I thought we could be using it for better work. I mean, in a way, as a fan of sports, right, I like that sports car, like a beginning, a middle, and an end. They have rules, and then you can do some improvisation in the middle. But you know what the purpose of the get-together is, when it comes to work, water-cooler time, I never found that super interesting. 

So, yeah, trying to guide just play time and not scripted time, but using scripted and play-guided script to help us bring in the creative juices, level the playing field for introverts and extroverts, to be able to participate, and try to persevere in doing that over and over so that we can get better at it because it's not easy to connect with people through a screen.

Douglas: Yeah. It reminds me of this BBC report that I read that said most pointless meetings are actually a form of therapy. And the thing that became really clear to me was, well, if that's the case, we should be intentional about it rather than just letting it organically happen, because people need it. Let's program it in and make sure we have really good therapy and we really check in. And, you know, I think that's a reason why a lot of people design an icebreaker. It’s unfortunate the way a lot of it develops, though, because when it's not really intentional and not tied to the purpose, there's a real missed opportunity because we can do something that's gracious and purposeful. And again, it can take us a bit further. But you’re absolutely right that we have to have time for the team.

Mariano: Yeah. Making time for no goals but structured play is interesting.

Douglas: Yeah. I want to come back to the ninja course that you built out in your driveway. Did you guys use MURAL to plan it before you went out to put it together?

Mariano: No, dude. It’s too much in front of Mural, it’s uh-

Douglas: No doubt. That’s like trying to get away, right?

I’ve always respected MURAL for your efforts to support facilitators. It's very clear that as a design and product consideration, when you're thinking about your roadmap and building features to support what we do as facilitators. And so I'd just like to hear a little bit about your philosophy around why that's important and where you see it could go, not in so much in the sense of, like, what's next on the roadmap, but from a philosophical standpoint. Like, where could that take us?

Mariano: Sure. So you mention mission early on or on imagination workers and powering them up globally. So when I talk about why we do what we do, and generally, I start with imagination and making room for imagination at work, make space for imagination at work. But imagination at work is not easy, right. For some of us, for certain cases, it may come naturally, but there's a lot of paralysis. So that's why we also believe—and we learned this early on in our journey—that the guided methods that people like you, Douglas, like, consultants and folks that are thinking of how to make this type of work happen—have put together alignment diagrams and methods were key to bring these teams together and ultimately help them with the job of creative problem solving and creative problem solving. So that's one part, right? Like, we don't support all types of work in MURAL. We just don’t need it for everything. 

But when there's something big to go through with, again, workshop-type mindset, you should probably rely on MURAL for that. And you should rely on MURAL whenever and wherever you might be. I mean, the idea that we go to innovation centers to innovate, that was always interesting to me because shouldn't we be innovating in small and big scale all the time? So that's the obvious thing around remote work that we support. 

But then the fourth bucket, pillar, or vector, whatever we want to call it, that we care about is facilitation. And as you mentioned, that we have a team focus on that. We have content based on that, because you observed at the best-run meetings there are some professional facilitators, or someone takes the role or many of them take the role of a facility—well, facilitation, right?. Like, doing facilitation. So we believe it’s a core competency for now and the future and because of the need for more multidisciplinary teams. And yes, and doing this in person is hard. Doing this remotely is virtually impossible. So that's why we tried to do a lot of community, a lot of content sharing, and a lot of little features in the product that we believe could be great for folks like you to be able to guide, to ask questions, to bring a little bit of fun and play into these meetings, and, ultimately, make your participants achieve the end goal of the meeting.

Douglas: Yeah. It just dawned on me that good agenda design can also really improve this sense of Zoom fatigue and meeting fatigue, because if we’re just going back-to-back meetings and there’s not a good sense of closure, there’s no good arc—I mean, imagine if you went to the movies, and you watched a movie, and every movie just ended right at the climax, and then you were right at the next movie, and it's just like action just thrown at you the entire time, there's no on-ramp. It’d be like having to jump off your—you're flying to Cincinnati, and you have to jump off and parachute down to get off the plane.

Mariano: I'm watching the timer right now in the podcast software. I'm realizing at minute 22, 23 now, and yet being aware enough of time, of first starting the meeting also with a purpose, right? Why are we meeting? What's the end goal of this meeting? And trying to have an agenda, but also acknowledge that maybe there's some flexibility that you can bake into that agenda. And if you're not able to close the meeting, probably there are two things. One is if you're consistently not closing in time, probably there's like a meeting design there, you might need more meeting time or more workshop time in the future to make sure that you get to closing. Or the nice thing about this remote situation that we're all in is that you can also call it a pause, right? And open up the next day or next week. People are starting to realize that they can unbundle workshops and unbundle meetings and not squeeze out everything from that workshop that first day. So there's a little bit of flexibility in my malleability that we're able to do to have here in the work that we have right now where we are all peers and that we're checking in digitally to the space.

Douglas: I love that concept of unbundling and how we can split workshops apart. And I'm going to switch gears here a little bit and talk about something that I heard from one of your MURAL employees, Hailey Temple, I was sharing a Loom over. There was something neat that I'd found about how I was using MURAL, and I was trying to explain it to her. And I thought, “It’d be so much easier just to record a quick Loom so she can see what I'm talking about.” And then she's like, “Oh, I love Loom. Mariano always records really great Looms for the team to get us motivated.” And I thought to myself, that's incredible. Such a great use of a tool for a distributed team to get them excited and motivated. So I would just love to hear some inspiration you might be to offer other leaders. Like, what should they be thinking about? Why do you use these tools to send videos out to the team? Why is that important? And how can we motivate our distributed teams?

Mariano: Sure. So, yeah, normally it's about recording media, screen recording video. There's another one called Vidyard that’s more customer facing. And there's probably a few others. And so, we went through a very tough time, right, in last six months now, maybe four, depending on the part of the world. We're hitting our lowest pandemic rate. It’s not a, we say, to work from home when we're walking around and being free of working on the beach or whatever. People are locked down in their houses in Argentina, where a lot of our guys are for 120 days now or so. So it's super, super tough to order them. So, acknowledging that and acknowledging it in a way that it's, again, as a human as possible is important, and I'm putting that on video. And on video that I generally compliment with a MURAL, with some visuals to explain that it has been a good practice and something that people appreciate. And it doesn't take me much time, and people can watch it in whichever time they want. And, yeah, I’m getting positive reactions because I appreciate their work; knowledge that it's not easy; share some thoughts, ideas, and plans. 

And another thing that we do also and we did and I was super happy how it all went out is that we made space for celebration also. When we wrapped up our very challenging, positively challenging quarter in June, in November we coordinated to make sure that we sent boxes to everybody in the company with a little mimosa kit and a little pub party bulbs and content and Schwab from the company to each of them in their homes. And I made time to celebrate. And I came back to the message that I was repeating over and over and over with new people coming in. It's necessary in those Loom videos. And I repeated that message again on the accounts  where we celebrated. Acknowledging that, again, we had accomplished something big together, and because we worked as a team and that now was a good time for us to acknowledge all of that and celebrate. And there was probably one of our, like a good moment where we also came together as a team and reflected back on those initial plans videos into something that came full circle. And I look forward to doing more of those again.

Douglas: That's amazing. I have been thinking a lot about tactile objects and supplies and things, and bringing that into your workshops or you're all hands or any kind of experience. Just because we're all distributed and we can't be in office together doesn't mean we can't send everybody the T-shirt or the awesome care package. That’s really great.

Mariano: There’s a company called Sliced in New York, and they call it an API to sell pizzas. And I've been thinking a cool feature for the future would be, like, press button, send pizzas, through MURAL. So we'll see how that goes, and it gets complicated with global teams, though.

Douglas: Yeah, no doubt. Incredible. 

So one of my favorite questions is around meetings, of course, on my mission to help people have better meetings everywhere. And I'm just curious what your go-to is. If you could change anything about the way most meetings are run, what would it be?

Mariano: I mentioned something before, right, so I think there's two things. One is acknowledge which type of meeting it is, and related to that, open up with the end goal of the meeting. For example, when I do first candidate meetings on recruiting, I try to be really curious, but very explicit about the end goal of this meeting is to see if we could be a fit for each other. I took that one from sales training, actually. There's a firm that we hire called Winning by Design that I really like. And they teach the sales guys to open up with appreciate taking the time today. Check time. Do you still have 30 minutes for us to go through this meeting? And the third thing is the end goal of this meeting is to see if we could be a fit for each other. And the corollary of that also is if in the middle of this meeting we believe that we're not a fit for each other, for whichever reason, we accomplished the goal, and we can end the meeting earlier. If we also accomplish the goal of, we can, we can be a fit for each other,  great. And maybe you do another check in later on to accomplish another goal, which is go deep into your requirements or go deep into your background to understand if we are a fit for each other. 

So I think that opening up, we have very clear goal is something that is very important. And the other thing that it's also related to the beginning is related to checking in. So checking in, fully checking in as individuals, as collaborators, and acknowledge that that's our goal, which is the role of each other, and how are you going to be participating here? Not as spectators, hopefully, or if you are spectators, acknowledge it and claim your role, but also acknowledging that maybe you're not needed for a meeting and that's okay. So goal first, roles and responsibilities second, and checking in, and checking in with a fun exercise that gets the creative juices going.

Douglas: Now you've got me curious. What is your favorite check-in exercise?

Mariano: This is not my favorite one, but it's a funny one. The other day, I put up the lyrics of Despacito, the song. And I had each of my leadership team members go for a phrase. And it was hilarious to hear the English-speaking guys trying to sing Despacito in English.

Douglas: That’s amazing. That reminds me of one that, essentially, everyone, first round, puts a name of a song, like a hit song, one of those songs that just gets stuck in your head, you know? So everyone contributes one, and then we shuffle them up. And then everyone draws the name, and then you have to sing that song. So you had to sing the song you randomly drew. And yeah, it's a little awkward.

Mariano: So, I mean, a question that we ask new team members to reply to when we introduce themselves to everybody else. The first one is, like, how you plan to make an impact. Sorry—so, first of all, why did you choose MURAL? The second one is, how you plan to make an impact. And then the third one is, tell us something weird about you. So I think that—and why are you in this meeting, how you plan to make an impact in this meeting, and then something fun are all things that we could bring into important big meetings.

Douglas: Yeah, that's great. You know, it doesn't have to be the all hands for, you know, someone's new. That's when you could be pretty evergreen, those questions, especially if you shift them from the company to the meeting, it's awesome. 

So I'm curious. What have you recently discovered or kind of bumped into that gives you hope and makes you curious?

Mariano: That silence was on purpose. So the use of silence, right? I mean, as evidenced by my voice, I have not been silent enough. I mean, talking, talking, talking, pitching, pitching, pitching. And silence, two observations. One is from the sales training, was, like, leave space after a question. Let them answer, and let them continue answering. Let you’re, the person you’re interviewing, just go for it. And the other day, we invited Maria Judis to talk, and she opened up with a silent moment, and also put together, like, a little sticky note with on camera that said, “Wait,” and says, “Yeah. Why am I talking?” And as a moment to, again, leave space for others to do that, especially someone they want them to share, it is close and so on. So, yeah, the use of silence. And it's weird in a remote environment because sometimes silence is catalyzed via a faulty mute set up; or bad connection; or am I talking? You’re talking? And people don’t want to bump into each other. So, yeah, I mean, silence as a tool.

Douglas: I love it. And that's the second time “wait” has appeared on the podcast, so it’s a popular one in these circles, especially with active listening being so critical to facilitation. So I love that you bring that up. 

I've even been exploring with using MURAL as a tool to allow us to play with silence. And so we'll do some work in the plenary session where everyone's together in the main Zoom room. And then I'll send folks into the MURALs to do some work. I won’t send them to the breakout rooms yet, but they’re already working in their breakout-room area in the MURAL. The reason I don't send them to the breakout room yet is that it's much easier to enforce that silence, because if anyone starts talking, then another group can hear them. And so if I send them to their breakout rooms immediately, then they all start talking in the breakout rooms. And so designing around that silence can be a real powerful thing.

Mariano: You mentioned that we have a facilitation team. That's one of things we observe, right? Besides unbundling and synchronous and synchronous work, even within the “synchronicity” of a meeting or a workshop, there are moments where you want solo work, small teamwork, plenaries, as you mentioned. And as a matter of fact, you showed me some of that when we were in the Google Sprint conference in San Francisco and you were facilitating your workshop on liberating structures. So I don't need to teach you. And I learned that from you. So we have a feature coming soon called private mode where people will be in private mode. We acknowledge that people also do breakout MURALs or breakout sessions in a MURAL. So we're baking that. As you know, there's a new celebration function in the product or the timer or the whole thing. So that's where we do most of our innovation, to be honest with you, right, on the little things that add up to what we call the facilitation superpowers, where yeah, it’s two-hundred bucks for facilitators to be able to run better meetings. But a good practice, as you mentioned, is definitely leave time for solo work first and then share out.

Douglas: So, Mariano, I'd love to hear any kind of final thoughts you might have for the listeners. Anything that's top of mind that you'd love to share?

Mariano: Insist on celebrations. We're all going through a very challenging time. I mean, the virus, spikes are coming all over the world. We're going to have to go back inside. Winter will be coming soon in the northern hemisphere. Pay attention to the southern hemisphere, people that are shut down and in winter and cold. It's not fun there. So make moment of fun, of celebration, and acknowledging that we're all accomplishing good things together. And micro celebrations and bigger celebrations and learn how to celebrate remotely, which is super hard. And so that would be my ask for all of you.

Douglas: Excellent. Well, Mariano, it's been a pleasure having you on the show today. 

How can folks find you if they want to look up your work, find MURAL, find out more about you. Where should they go?

Mariano: The website is mural.co. And my Twitter or LinkedIn, I use batmelon. It's a joke that I can tell the audience at some point, but it relates to Batman and Three Melons, my game studio. We tried to show up being dogs, being webinars, and inspire everybody with our brain to use it for imagination. We believe that imagination and collaboration, it's what makes us human, right? The Homo sapiens that started our civilizations imagined language, imagined civilizations, shared them with each other, and for small teams to be able to build civilization. And the good thing about computers taking over knowledge work and data crunching and other processing is that we can come back to this type of work that is so rewarding and so fun.

 So follow us if you care about that. And thank you, Douglas, for also spreading the gospel of facilitation and reward work. Glad to be here in the show. And hello, everybody out there that are facilitators. We want to help you out, and reach out if you need anything. 

Douglas: Thanks again, Mariano. It's been a pleasure.

Marino: Cheers, mate.

Outro: Thanks for joining me for another episode of Control the Room. Don't forget to subscribe to receive updates when new episodes are released. If you want more, head over to our blog, where I post weekly articles and resources about working better together, voltagecontrol.com.

"We are both in this radical honesty together where...we have a structure that's going to hold us as we evolve and change together and as individuals...I witnessed that many people don't feel safe to evolve and change and be themselves. So if you can't change with the people around you, I don't know that you are allowing yourself to change." Alexandra Jamieson

Today, I'm excited to speak with Alexandra Jamieson of Super Size Me fame. For two decades, Alexandra has worked professionally as a coach, driving creative women to build their visions for success. She is also an award-winning author, a podcast host, and an artist. She says she is on this earth to help others be rid of imposter syndrome and claim their worth (and wealth!).

In today's episode, we speak about effective communication, couples' coaching, and meeting snacks. Listen in to find out how to hone your communication skills like a professional musician mastering their instrument and why a movement break is like MiracleGro for your brain.

Show Highlights

[0:55] Supersize Me & going viral for quitting veganism.

[5:05] The tiny thing that makes couples communicate effectively.

[14:51] Why effective communication is like playing an instrument.

[18:10] How going to bed angry can actually benefit your relationship.

[29:35] No more conference cookies.

[34:52] The All-In Method.

[37:56] Alexandra's challenge for the listener.

Links | Resources

Alexandra on LinkedIn

Radical Alignment: A book about difficult conversations

Alexandra's podcast, Her Rules Radio, on Stitcher

About the Guest

For 20 years, Alexandra has coached creators, founders, and leaders on the rise to use their strengths, values, intuition, and creative thinking to achieve success on their own terms. She loves championing women and their creative visions by helping them feel worthy of their desires, allowing them to begin bringing their visions to reality and transforming the world. Outside of her coaching work, Alexandra has hosted her #1 podcast Her Rules Radio for 6 years and written 5 best-selling books. You also may know her as co-producer and co-star of the Oscar-nominated documentary Super Size Me.

Voltage Control is a facilitation agency that helps teams work better together with custom-designed meetings and workshops, both in-person and virtual. Our master facilitators offer trusted guidance and custom coaching to companies who want to transform ineffective meetings, reignite stalled projects, and cut through assumptions. Based in Austin, Voltage Control designs and leads public and private workshops that range from small meetings to large conference-style gatherings.

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Android

Stitcher

Voltage Control on the Web

Contact Voltage Control

Intro: Welcome to the Control the Room Podcast, a series devoted to the exploration of meeting culture and uncovering cures for the common meeting. Some meetings have tight control, and others are loose. To control the room means achieving outcomes while striking a balance between imposing and removing structure, asserting and distributing power, leaning in and leaning out, all in the service of having a truly magical meeting.

Douglas: Today I'm with Alexandra Jamieson, coproducer and costar of Super Size Me. Today we're here to talk about her fifth book that's upcoming, will be released in August, called Radical Alignment. Welcome to the show, Alexandra.

Alexandra: Thank you so much for having me.

Douglas: So, for starters, I'd love to hear about how you got started in the work you do.

Alexandra: It's been a long and tangled road to be an author and coach. I've been an author and a coach for over a decade—as you said, this is my fifth book—and I really started in the health-and-wellness world. And we were about the same age when you and I both discovered we had these massive health issues in our mid-20s and that food was the answer. So I dove deep. I'm a two-feet-in kind of person. I discovered food is healing, food is medicine. Went to culinary school, became a vegan chef, did catering, etc.. And right around that time, I met my now ex. But we made the movie Super Size Me together. He ate nothing but McDonald's for a month, for anybody who remembers that. He got really sick, and I put him on my vegan detox plan afterwards to, like, clean up his liver, his high cholesterol, all the stuff that happened to him so quickly from eating terrible fast food all the time.

And I was also a budding health coach. I was working with people one on one to help them figure out their nutritional needs but also their emotional eating life. So it was a very interesting mix of coaching techniques that I was bringing to people.

But after being vegan for a decade, I started to get really sick again. I was chronically anemic. I had all these health concerns, and I really tried everything in the vegan framework to fix it. But it turns out I am one of those people that has to eat things like chicken liver and organ meat. That's the only way my body can absorb iron.

So I had this kind of infamous coming out as no longer vegan that went viral. You know, we all want our stuff to go viral, Doug, but this I really didn't want anybody to see it. I was like, I just have to be honest. I had written three vegan cookbooks at this point, so it was a bit of a shift, you could say. And it really blew up in, first, a very kind of over-the-top, extreme way, like people wishing me death, losing friends because I wasn't vegan anymore.

And that also led to my fourth book called Women, Food, and Desire, which is this real examination of women's cravings and our relationship with our bodies. And around that time, I was now getting divorced from Super Size Me husband, and I met Bob, my new husband. I stepped it up, upgraded a little bit. And Bob came from this design and agile consulting, facilitation world, and I have been in the coaching world for just over 10 years at that point, and we began to realize as our relationship grew that we were talking about a lot of the same things. Even though I was doing kind of life coaching, health coaching, he was doing real, like, solid business design kind of consulting, it was like, we're using a lot of the same tools to help people figure out what they want, what they need, what the challenges are, and move forward. So that's kind of the seed that led to this book that has some really powerful tools at the heart of it.

Douglas: That's amazing. I echo that similar sentiment in my journey at Voltage Control, just as a facilitator, not wanting to just be too dogmatic or aligned with one specific discipline. And the more I sought out and the more I learned in all these different silos that there is quite a bit that's common, but there are some stuff that people were doing a little differently. And when you combine those things together, you can get these real awesome, emergent qualities that you wouldn't have otherwise.

So, I'm curious. Can you tell a story or is there a tool in particular that when you think about the fact that you came together, that the sum's greater than the combining of the parts, per se.

Alexandra: By the request of some of our friends, we actually led a couple of couples workshops. And I'll be honest. It was usually the women, like, dragging their boyfriends or husbands to come to these workshops. And we realized they were there for very different reasons. One person wanted one experience, and one person was there for a completely different reason.

And so Bob had this kind of tool from his past life. I think he was also a newspaper design director. Anyway, he said, "You know what, we don't need to get on the same page. We need to get into alignment." And we started teaching this very simple conversation tool to put all the information out on the table. Why are you here? What do you want? What are you worried about? etc..

And after a couple of workshops, we realized, like nothing else from those workshops really took off, but this one simple conversation structure that we taught, people kept texting us and emailing us and saying, "What was that four-step thing that you took us through, again? because I have this other conversation that I need to have."

So over the course of the next two years, people kept bugging us for this thing. We're a little slow on the uptake. I'm like, "All right. Let's just put this in a Google Doc because then we can stop explaining it to everybody. We can just say 'Here it is; here it is; here it is.'"

But we kept getting these incredible stories from our friends who were using it, that it was helping them in their marriage, that it was helping them with negotiations at work, that they were using it like Bob was using it, teaching it in these high-level, CEO boardroom kind of situations. And then the CEO would say, "That was amazing. I'm taking that home to my husband, and we're going to use that conversation at home."

So I was like, "Oh, my goodness, this one little thing," sometimes it's just this tiny thing that people keep asking for. We didn't even see how valuable it was. And that's the genesis of this whole project, this book.

Douglas: So what are these four steps? You've got me very curious.

Alexandra: So it's a really simple, guided conversation that helps two or more people get really clear and develop just a deeper understanding of or appreciation for each other. It really creates team psychological safety. And there's some very specific things about that in terms of how you run it, right? You're the facilitator guy, so you totally get it. There's some ground rules that you got to set up. You got to set the stage.

And, you know, one thing is, I always tell people, first, never say to someone, "We need to talk." That's the wrong way to introduce any kind of conversation.

Douglas: That'll ruin the rest of my day. All I can think about is, "What are we talking about? What things?"

Alexandra: So, think about how you want to invite someone to a conversation or a meeting. Have a comfortable, distraction-free place. And believe me, we use this in business and in our personal lives, so we're very clear to make sure everybody is well rested. We do not do meetings at the end of the day. We just don't. Make sure you're fed. Make sure no one has had even one glass of alcohol.

Those are three very basic things. Because we are human animals, our bodies are very much aligned with our brains. And if we're not fed, if we've had even a little booze, and if we're exhausted, we're not going to be present or clear. So think about those things before you get to an important conversation.

And then, get clear about what the point is. "What are we talking about and why?" And just, we're very specific. "Okay, we're going to talk about project x so we can become a great team, or we're discussing our summer vacation so that we can both have a wonderful time." That level of clarity.

And then, you go into the conversation. A minute ago I said team psychological safety, and one of the things that we've learned in all of our practice and all of our research is that there is a real inequality of power in most rooms. There's somebody who's got the power, and there's somebody—and there's extroverts and introverts. So we actually request that you time everyone, that everybody gets two or four minutes per share so that it is very equal.

And some people have—it's funny. In Bob and my relationship, he's an incredible verbal processor. He talks it out and gets clear. And I actually need to sit and be quiet for up to 15 seconds sometimes to know what I'm going to say. But when you have a timer and no one else is speaking, there's no crosstalk. It's like, "Okay, I've got this space where I can just relax and think about what it is that I need to say." So give each person the same amount of time. That is true equality.

And then, you go into the four-part conversation. So that's all the set up. And you each share your intentions, concerns, boundaries, and dreams. And you can think of intentions of, why do you want to be a part of this project? Why can this project support your personal values or your goals? What led you to get involved in this? So what are your intentions in being a part of this? And it can be super simple, like, "I want to have fun. I want to learn something, and I want to make money." And again, you all go around; you all share the same amount of time.

And then you go into your concerns. And this is where we encourage you to start being very vulnerable in the spirit of, let's really try to discover who we are. And luckily, the human brain is incredibly good at coming up with fears and worries and concerns. In fact, it's probably the best thing that our brains are good at. And let's tap into it. Let's tap into that negativity bias that we have. Because actually, when you say your worries and concerns out loud in a safe space, and let's really set up these conversations like, "I want to know what you really think. You're not going to get penalized for this. Let's not take anything personally in this room," when you say it out loud, your brain hears it, and it actually has the effect of calming down your amygdala. Your nervous system can chill out a bit. And that way you can actually get clear and calm, which leads to better decision making by the end of it.

Douglas: Well, there's a lot there to unpack. Not only the setting—the one big one is setting the initial conditions. You know, you talked a lot about being well fed, no alcohol, a comfortable space. The invitation, I think, is so critical. And I love that you use that word. Liberating Structures talks a lot about crafting a really good invitation. I think there's some real beauty in that word because it's not that we're telling you what to do. We're inviting you in. It's very open. And also, I love this notion of starting with gratitude and appreciation. Kudos for that because there's some really great design elements at play in that activity.

And when you think about the components that kind of came into this, how did you end up developing that? What did you draw inspiration from? Was it just like you just sat down and it just kind of came to you, or was there a process to kind of develop it and refine it?

Alexandra: So Bob and I have been through so many trainings and coaching programs over the years, before we even came together as a couple. When we started teaching these couples workshops, there was the seed of it. It was like, "Okay, why are we here, and what challenges could we have in getting to what you want?" Those kind of—I mean, those seem like pretty basic questions. But it took some time using it and then teaching it in other settings and boardrooms and with my clients, etc., that we're like, "Oh, it needs to be this order: intentions, concerns, boundaries, and dreams." It took a little time to figure out kind of the magical recipe. Like, you don't want to add the salt at the end of a recipe. It's got to go in at the beginning so that it can spread throughout. So it really became clear through doing it what the order needed to be.

Douglas: I love that you say that, because we're big believers that facilitation requires practice and you have to develop those skills and you have to get comfortable, and a lot of it has to do with confidence. And, you know, it's similar to a musician that's improving, right? You had to get so comfortable with your instrument that you can perform in a very rigid style. Then you're able to, then, let go and kind of flow with the moment and find what lands.

Can you tell any stories about some of the formulas that you tried that just didn't work out and why, and what the lessons to learn from that would be?

Alexandra: Actually, I want to go back to what you just said about playing an instrument. We really describe this four-part structure, we're like, this is playing scales. You know, every great musician still practices their scales. You go dah, dah, dah, dah, right? We do one, two, three, four. And then, eventually, you can improvise. We're now so practiced with it, we'll just—let's say we had a conversation two weeks ago about visiting the in-laws, and now one of us comes up with, "Oh, you know what, I have a new boundary." We can just, like, drop into that conversation at point C instead of point A again. So we have this shared vocabulary where we're kind of always in the conversation about different topics. And that's just—

What's really, really helpful—I'll tell you what my life was like before I learned how to have tough conversations using this structure was I just didn't have tough conversations. I just avoided hard topics. This has given me a sense of—like you said, you have to become confident as a facilitator—I just become confident. Okay, I have four buckets to put all my thoughts and feelings in. And now I know that the science to a good conversation is coming back to the topic, not letting it get off and create—I think that's one of the reasons why I avoided emotional or high-stakes conversations, because I thought I'm going to have to prove everything I believe is right and have logical arguments for everything, and somebody is going to win, and somebody's going to lose. With this structure, it's like, no, we're just in information-gathering zone. And we develop empathy for each other through it, which is so important. That's like the sweet spot of alignment.

Douglas: Yeah. That's amazing.

I was thinking a bit about this notion of being afraid to have some of those conversations, and maybe it's not like people might hear that and think, "Oh, I'm daunted by all this fear," but sometimes it's just subconscious, right? Sometimes we don't even entertain the thought, because our brains are protecting us from that thing that we're deeply fearful of or just avoiding.

And I recently saw some really awesome facilitation guides. It was a guide, but it contained some prompts. And it was written by DiAngelo, who is the author of White Fragility, and these prompts were for basically starting conversations that are hard to start. And she called them silence breakers. And as you talked about being more equipped to have these conversations now, it got me really excited. It reminded me of this notion of silence breakers. And I think it's really important and it's amazing to hear that your work is headed in that same direction.

So as folks start to think about being able to open up in this way or what that experience is like, what should they consider or how should they—what are some things that they need to keep in mind?

Alexandra: I'm so glad you asked that. So we covered intentions and concerns, the first two steps. The third one is boundaries. And that is a very challenging topic for people to come up with answers for. What are my boundaries? And it's not like ordering off a menu, where I'm going to say something and it's a demand of, this is what you're going to do for me or this is what I must have. Think of it like, what are the things I need, the conditions that help me show up to be my best? What are the way—think of them as starter boundaries, right? Take the pressure off of things to be perfect. Think of it as, what do you need to be your personal best? What will help keep us from reaching burn out? What rules or standards help us work together best?

One of the things we discovered, and I cannot believe it took me until my 40s to realize this, but do not start an important conversation at bedtime. Don't. Just don't. It's okay to go to bed angry or unclear, truly. That has been a game changer in my marriage. And I've seen it happen in the workplace, too. People are like, "We have to figure this out today. We're staying until it's done." Actually, everybody's exhausted, and nobody is going to show up and be their best right now, so it's okay for us to take a break and for us to honor the exhaustion that's present.

Douglas: Yeah, I love this notion of boundaries. I'm a big fan of compartmentalization, so what is the right way to—like, where do we put this thought, and what's important right now in this moment? And if we can constrain things and really just kind of neatly package them up, then we can better be in service of the work that we're doing. Maybe we need to put some things aside. Maybe some things are off limits. That's really, really awesome.

The thing that I'm curious about is, just to get your reaction to this idea of honoring yourself, and authentic relating, they have this notion—well, this ground rule—of honoring yourself. So if someone asks something of you, because this is very deeply relating kind of work that they're doing, and so someone could ask you a very personal question because we're trying to build connection, and so there's this notion of, if you don't feel comfortable, then just pass. And so only contribute at the level that you feel comfortable contributing. I think there's some beauty in that. And it's similar to this being gracious with each other.

Alexandra: Well, there's two things that you're reminding me of that I think are so important. Generally, in the room, if there is a designated leader in a work situation, that might be more obvious, right? Like, the team leader or the C-suite-level person. But in our relationship, perhaps the leader could be considered the person who's bringing this topic up. So they're leading the initial situation. That person, we realized, they need to be the most brave. They need to be the most courageous and the most vulnerable. They need to set the tone for, like, "I am going to be super vulnerable here. I'm really going to share my heart and my truth here," so that everybody else is like, "Oh, wow. Okay. This person has been really vulnerable. I'm going to maybe go an inch further in sharing my truth now." So that's one aspect.

But the other one is we really encourage—and this is something I do personally all the time—I go through these four steps by myself, and I write out my thoughts. And we will often—I've definitely coached my clients to do this. We've even done it as a couple, even though we've used this hundreds of times now. We will, like, "Okay, you know what, tomorrow we're going to talk about this topic," to give ourselves some time to think about our intentions, concerns, boundaries, and dreams, before we meet so that we just have some time to gather our thoughts and maybe be more coherent in how we express ourselves. And that is very compassionate and very thoughtful, because not everyone is a verbal processor. Some people need to write it out or take a walk and think about it first. Why not give people a little more time if you're able to?

Douglas: Absolutely. And we often think about multisensory experiences because there's kind of a myth that some people are visual learners and some people are auditory learners. The fact of the matter is we all learn through many different forms, and in any given moment, we may be more attuned to a different style, and we kind of need it all. And so if we as workshop facilitators and designers want the best out of our participants, we need to consider those things. So I think that's really fantastic. And we've even been asking people to do that silent solo work as part of the workshop, because, frankly, people are jam-packed schedules and are super busy, so the pre-work rarely gets done. So to be in service of those people, like you say, that are slower or need more reflection time, just bake it in. And the people that don't need it, well, they'll be fine.

Alexandra: Yeah. You can doodle—

Douglas: Yes, exactly.

Alexandra: —while the rest of us write.

Douglas: That's right.

So I wanted to come back to this comment you made about being authentic. And I think it might have been in the preshow chatter. But when you brought it up, it was around this notion of, you had this strong pull to be true to the brand you've built and true to this identity that was out in the world, and being authentic to your body, to your DNA, to your cellular—like, everything that was physical about your situation was screaming that you needed to behave in a certain way. If you were going to be authentic to that, you had to leave some other stuff behind. In fact, potentially friends and it could have had an impact on livelihood. And that must've been a really challenging moment. And if I really compare it to some of the challenges other people face, it trivializes some of these situations people find themselves in, yet they can't be authentic. And I think it's just may be a beacon to those that are in meetings and not being authentic, because the best way to get to where you want to go and to build strong teams is to be authentic. Sure, you can be a role model in the work that you've already done. But are there any tactics or things people can think about as to how they can really tap into what it means to be authentic for them?

Alexandra: And I can't understress how—and this is true for me and my life. You know, I am myself, and you may have a very different, unique experience. But when I feel I am living inauthentically, I am just incapable of being happy. You know, there was a year and a half where I was hiding that I was eating meat. My business was suffering. My energy was suffering. Everything about my life felt frustrating. And I would rather blow up my life by being really honest, and not honest in a way like, I'm going to tell you what I really think about you. No. Me being honest to myself. I would rather have to deal with the repercussions of that. But I tell you how I've been able to—I mean, since I met Bob and since we've been using this format of communication, I feel so incredibly safe and held because we are both in this radical honesty together where it's very clear, like, we're allowed to evolve and change, and we have a structure that's going to hold us as we evolve and change together and as individuals. I didn't have that in my first marriage, and I witnessed that many people don't feel safe to evolve and change and be themselves. So if you can't change with the people around you, I don't know that you are allowing yourself to change.

Douglas: Yeah. That's interesting because I think that applies deeply inside teams, too, especially as we find ourselves in more and more complex situations. We're not in the days of the factory, where things are repeatable and the same widgets coming down the assembly line every day, one day after the other, or we can just follow a recipe. And so the change itself is changing, and teams have to be able to adapt. And I think the willingness to reinvent the team and be different tomorrow than we were yesterday is really important.

Alexandra: And the last step of the four-part conversation is probably the most important, and it definitely needs to happen at the end, which is you share your dreams. And this is very specific. If this goes incredibly well, what will be true for you as an individual, for us as a team, for the people impacted around us? How will you feel? What will have shifted? You really get into best-case scenario, imagination land, and you start to feel the oxytocin flowing, the connection. And when I hear from you what your dreams are, and I really feel you connected to that, it's almost impossible for me to not want that for you, too. And it really, even if there are concerns and boundaries which seem to be in conflict, and you know that you've got some figuring out to do after this conversation, the dreams brings you all back together. Okay, how can we work together to make this work? It's a really foundational.

Douglas: I'm going to switch gears a little bit, though. Food's been a pretty core part of your life, and it's hard to do work and it's hard to meet as a team without eating, without having food. And when we met in person, when we had workshops in real life, we had to think about, what's for lunch, and what's the catering, what are we going to order? And that's not as much of a concern anymore.

In fact, I've seen some jokes around the Internet. I think it was a lady. Her husband was attending a virtual conference. And so she prepared a bunch of horrible food for his virtual-conference experience. So like, soggy wraps. Yeah, exactly. Dry chicken, soggy wraps.

Alexandra: Really bad chicken.

Douglas: Had some pudding in a little cocktail dish. But all joking aside, what is your recommendation, as a health coach, for teams that are wanting to think about, what is a great workshop diet? What should they be thinking about eating when they're wanting to concentrate more, to work together, stay focused?

Alexandra: I'm so glad you brought this up. This is one of my favorite things to talk about. No conference cookies. Just keep the sugar out of it. Seriously. It does not help in the long run. Everybody crashes. Fruit, for sure. Have some of those natural sugars. Have some in-season, good-quality fruits. Variety of things. People do need a little bit sugar. But if you eat two cookies, half an hour, hour from now, you're worthless.

Douglas: As a diabetic, I've had to dive into a lot of this stuff. And the thing that really clicked for me, it's okay if you have a little sugar. It's okay if you have some fat. But when you mix fat and sugar, that's doing a major whammy on you. And I think that's where desserts really kill us. And it's like if you're eating fruit, it's literally no fat and it has fiber, which is good. It's going to slow down absorption. But man, the fat actually hijacks your system, and you absorb the sugar slower, but it really hits you harder on the end because your body can't pull it down as fast because it really stays with you a lot longer and just, I mean, it really does a number on you. And that's where the cookies are different than the fruit.

Alexandra: Yeah. So I recommend, get the sodas out of the room. Have iced tea. Caffeine, I think, is the drug that we all got to keep in the room, in some form, but have it be unsweetened stuff if at all possible. And have high-protein stuff. Have good-quality meats and veggies. Keep the sugar as much out of the room as possible.

And the other side of it is it's not just about the food that we eat. You've got to include movement breaks regularly. Do not make people sit for an hour, even. Do some kind of, "All right, everybody's going to stand up, and we're going to stretch at the 30-minute mark." It releases BDNF in the brain, brain-derived neurotrophic factor. It's like Miracle-Gro for your brain. It really gets you back up. Do a little bit of breathing exercises. That's as important as what you eat.

Douglas: Yeah. I love that. We love the stretch-and-share fun activity, and especially in the virtual space, because cadence and turn taking can be strange and foreign, and you can't just go around the circle. So, yeah. Getting out of the chair. And as a facilitator, I think it's really important to really model that behavior and encourage it, and make sure that people know that, man, this is serious stuff, Zoom fatigue and other things. It's not only the—you talked about the benefits of getting the movement so that it's improving our thinking and that we're coming with better ideas. But there's actually a negative consequence of not doing some of this stuff, making sure people don't just use the breaks as an opportunity to say, "I'll tab over their email and just start doing more text stuff." Excellent.

Alexandra: Yeah.

Douglas: I want to talk a little bit about differentiated learning and just to hear a little bit about the work that you're doing around supporting folks that might have different needs. And so when you're working through some of this alignment stuff, do you ever run into situations where maybe someone's struggling with concerns or boundaries? And how do you help those individuals that just maybe need a little something different than the rest of the group?

Alexandra: That's a really great question. And I can actually bring an example from my 13-year-old son. He has dyslexia and ADHD. So he thinks differently than I do. His brain just works differently. And I find that breaking it up into actually two or three versions of the same conversation over the space of a couple days. Like, I pre-set the scene, day one. "Hey, we need to talk about," like we just did today, "We need to talk about going back to school in the fall because we don't know what schools are going to look like here in New York City. There's all kinds of ideas, and nobody knows what's up. And we know there's a couple of options on the table. So here's what I know so far. Do you have any concerns or questions about that before we talk about it in a couple of days with your dad? Just to drop it in there and ask him the open-ended questions so that in the background it's running. His brain can be prepared to think about it in a day or two.

Douglas: I love that. I always talk about the best workshop homework is where they don't really have to do anything, but they're doing it.

Alexandra: Yeah.

Douglas: Right? Because if it's just enough to plant the seed in their subconscious, they're going to be able to participate more deeply when the time comes, versus giving them a bunch of busy work or having them go do things that require present, hands-on stuff, which no one does.

Alexandra: Yeah, yeah. I've learned so much from being his mom and helping him learn to think and me understanding how he thinks. And I've been working with women as a success-in-life coach for over 10 years, and 10 years as a health coach before that. And I just realized that different people need different versions of the same question.

Actually, in the book Radical Alignment, we give dozens of options for different scenarios. We talk about how people have used the, we call it, the all-in method. Those four steps are the all-in method. People have used it to plan their weddings, like, huge multi-continent weddings, and they planned with this. But people also use it for their design teams, and they use it in H.R., and they use it at home. So through the book, there's just dozens of ways to ask the same question, depending on your circumstances. So be willing to be flexible and curious. What's another way I could ask this?

Douglas: Wow. I love this notion of, what is another way I could ask this? And I think the hallmark of a great listener, a great conversation, is fantastic questions. So what are some of your favorite questions?

Alexandra: I actually really love the dreams questions. What are you doing, and what would be the most amazing outcome for this? I don't think we often get the opportunity to really dream big and share it out loud in a way where we're not going to get shot down. So like, the "Oh, you, Pollyanna," or "You're crazy."

I'm also an artist. I come from a family of artists. It's kind of a miracle that any of us became artists, considering this culture we live in that is so down on artists. Like, "Oh, you better have a backup plan," or "You're going to be a starving artist." You know, those ideas just get woven into the culture. So I love the invitation. Just say, like, "What would you like for Radical Alignment to happen when it publishes?" I'm like, "I would love it to be a New York Times' bestseller. I want this in every middle school in America. I want every eighth grader learning how to have tough conversations in a way where they feel capable." Like, that is my dream. That's absolutely my dream.

Douglas: That's phenomenal. So good.

And let's talk a little bit about—one of my favorite questions is, if you can make meetings better, any average meeting—because as you know, I'm on a mission to rid the world of horrible meetings—

Alexandra: God bless you.

Douglas: —if you were to do one thing or just change one thing about meetings, what would it be?

Alexandra: For people to feel really safe to be themselves. I think people are dying for an opportunity to really be safe, to be themselves, and be accepted. I mean, that's the bottom line.

Douglas: So I'd love to end with a message to the listener. So if there is anything that you'd want to leave them with, what might it be?

Alexandra: I want to invite you to try to bring structure to your conversat—I know I sound a little over the top, but this has truly changed so much about my life. It has changed decades-old family dysfunction, and it has changed my work and how successful my business is. Bring this structure to try it. Try this four-part conversation. Try it a few times. It has absolutely changed my life, my friends' lives. The woman who wrote the foreword, she will inspire the heck out of you. An entrepreneur, who is a mom of five, she's, like, "This saved my marriage." I'm like, that's a great testimonial for this book. Bring a little structure to your conversations, a little bit more professional structure to your intimate conversations, and a little bit more vulnerable intimacy to your professional conversations.

Douglas: It's been a pleasure chatting with you today and hearing about your approach and your structure. I'm a huge fan of structure, and this falls right in with the work we do and what I love to talk about. So it was a tremendous pleasure chatting with you today.

And one last piece of housecleaning. How can folks find you? How can they get the book? I know it's not quite out yet. Give us a little bit to go on.

Alexandra: We would love people to go preorder the book, actually. You can go to radicalalignmentbook.com. Listen, if you buy one or a couple copies and you just give us your little order number on the website, you get a free workshop with us. If you get 10 or more copies of the book, you get an eight-week training with me and my husband. So go to radicalalignmentbook.com, order the books there from wherever you love to get books. We are going to help you use this in your life and in your business beautifully.

Douglas: Excellent. And amazon.com, other suppliers as well.

Alexandra: Amazon, Kindle, Audible, your local independent bookstore, you can order it all through radicalalignmentbook.com.

Douglas: Radicalalignmentbook.com. So incredible. And I wish you the best of luck. I hope you do make the New York Times' bestseller list. And again, it was a real pleasure to have you on the show.

Alexandra: Thank you.

Outro: Thanks for joining me for another episode of Control the Room. Don't forget to subscribe to receive updates when new episodes are released. If you want more, head over to our blog, where I post weekly articles and resources about working bett

“We are both in this radical honesty together where...we have a structure that's going to hold us as we evolve and change together and as individuals...I witnessed that many people don't feel safe to evolve and change and be themselves. So if you can't change with the people around you, I don't know that you are allowing yourself to change.” Alexandra Jamieson

Today, I’m excited to speak with Alexandra Jamieson of Super Size Me fame. For two decades, Alexandra has worked professionally as a coach, driving creative women to build their visions for success. She is also an award-winning author, a podcast host, and an artist. She says she is on this earth to help others be rid of imposter syndrome and claim their worth (and wealth!).

In today’s episode, we speak about effective communication, couples’ coaching, and meeting snacks. Listen in to find out how to hone your communication skills like a professional musician mastering their instrument and why a movement break is like MiracleGro for your brain.

Show Highlights

[0:55]  Supersize Me & going viral for quitting veganism.

[5:05] The tiny thing that makes couples communicate effectively.

[14:51] Why effective communication is like playing an instrument.

[18:10] How going to bed angry can actually benefit your relationship.

[29:35] No more conference cookies.

[34:52] The All-In Method.

[37:56] Alexandra’s challenge for the listener.

Links | Resources

Alexandra on LinkedIn

Radical Alignment: A book about difficult conversations

Alexandra’s podcast, Her Rules Radio, on Stitcher

About the Guest

For 20 years, Alexandra has coached creators, founders, and leaders on the rise to use their strengths, values, intuition, and creative thinking to achieve success on their own terms. She loves championing women and their creative visions by helping them feel worthy of their desires, allowing them to begin bringing their visions to reality and transforming the world. Outside of her coaching work, Alexandra has hosted her #1 podcast Her Rules Radio for 6 years and written 5 best-selling books. You also may know her as co-producer and co-star of the Oscar-nominated documentary Super Size Me.

Voltage Control is a facilitation agency that helps teams work better together with custom-designed meetings and workshops, both in-person and virtual. Our master facilitators offer trusted guidance and custom coaching to companies who want to transform ineffective meetings, reignite stalled projects, and cut through assumptions. Based in Austin, Voltage Control designs and leads public and private workshops that range from small meetings to large conference-style gatherings. 

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Android

Stitcher

Voltage Control on the Web

Contact Voltage Control

Intro: Welcome to the Control the Room Podcast, a series devoted to the exploration of meeting culture and uncovering cures for the common meeting. Some meetings have tight control, and others are loose. To control the room means achieving outcomes while striking a balance between imposing and removing structure, asserting and distributing power, leaning in and leaning out, all in the service of having a truly magical meeting.

Douglas: Today I’m with Alexandra Jamieson, coproducer and costar of Super Size Me. Today we're here to talk about her fifth book that's upcoming, will be released in August, called Radical Alignment. Welcome to the show, Alexandra.

Alexandra: Thank you so much for having me.

Douglas: So, for starters, I'd love to hear about how you got started in the work you do.

Alexandra: It's been a long and tangled road to be an author and coach. I've been an author and a coach for over a decade—as you said, this is my fifth book—and I really started in the health-and-wellness world. And we were about the same age when you and I both discovered we had these massive health issues in our mid-20s and that food was the answer. So I dove deep. I'm a two-feet-in kind of person. I discovered food is healing, food is medicine. Went to culinary school, became a vegan chef, did catering, etc.. And right around that time, I met my now ex. But we made the movie Super Size Me together. He ate nothing but McDonald's for a month, for anybody who remembers that. He got really sick, and I put him on my vegan detox plan afterwards to, like, clean up his liver, his high cholesterol, all the stuff that happened to him so quickly from eating terrible fast food all the time.

And I was also a budding health coach. I was working with people one on one to help them figure out their nutritional needs but also their emotional eating life. So it was a very interesting mix of coaching techniques that I was bringing to people.

But after being vegan for a decade, I started to get really sick again. I was chronically anemic. I had all these health concerns, and I really tried everything in the vegan framework to fix it. But it turns out I am one of those people that has to eat things like chicken liver and organ meat. That's the only way my body can absorb iron.

So I had this kind of infamous coming out as no longer vegan that went viral. You know, we all want our stuff to go viral, Doug, but this I really didn't want anybody to see it. I was like, I just have to be honest. I had written three vegan cookbooks at this point, so it was a bit of a shift, you could say. And it really blew up in, first, a very kind of over-the-top, extreme way, like people wishing me death, losing friends because I wasn't vegan anymore.

And that also led to my fourth book called Women, Food, and Desire, which is this real examination of women's cravings and our relationship with our bodies. And around that time, I was now getting divorced from Super Size Me husband, and I met Bob, my new husband. I stepped it up, upgraded a little bit. And Bob came from this design and agile consulting, facilitation world, and I have been in the coaching world for just over 10 years at that point, and we began to realize as our relationship grew that we were talking about a lot of the same things. Even though I was doing kind of life coaching, health coaching, he was doing real, like, solid business design kind of consulting, it was like, we’re using a lot of the same tools to help people figure out what they want, what they need, what the challenges are, and move forward. So that's kind of the seed that led to this book that has some really powerful tools at the heart of it.

Douglas: That's amazing. I echo that similar sentiment in my journey at Voltage Control, just as a facilitator, not wanting to just be too dogmatic or aligned with one specific discipline. And the more I sought out and the more I learned in all these different silos that there is quite a bit that's common, but there are some stuff that people were doing a little differently. And when you combine those things together, you can get these real awesome, emergent qualities that you wouldn’t have otherwise.

So, I'm curious. Can you tell a story or is there a tool in particular that when you think about the fact that you came together, that the sum’s greater than the combining of the parts, per se.

Alexandra: By the request of some of our friends, we actually led a couple of couples workshops. And I'll be honest. It was usually the women, like, dragging their boyfriends or husbands to come to these workshops. And we realized they were there for very different reasons. One person wanted one experience, and one person was there for a completely different reason.

And so Bob had this kind of tool from his past life. I think he was also a newspaper design director. Anyway, he said, “You know what, we don’t need to get on the same page. We need to get into alignment.” And we started teaching this very simple conversation tool to put all the information out on the table. Why are you here? What do you want? What are you worried about? etc..

And after a couple of workshops, we realized, like nothing else from those workshops really took off, but this one simple conversation structure that we taught, people kept texting us and emailing us and saying, “What was that four-step thing that you took us through, again? because I have this other conversation that I need to have.”

So over the course of the next two years, people kept bugging us for this thing. We're a little slow on the uptake. I’m like, “All right. Let's just put this in a Google Doc because then we can stop explaining it to everybody. We can just say ‘Here it is; here it is; here it is.’”

But we kept getting these incredible stories from our friends who were using it, that it was helping them in their marriage, that it was helping them with negotiations at work, that they were using it like Bob was using it, teaching it in these high-level, CEO boardroom kind of situations. And then the CEO would say, “That was amazing. I'm taking that home to my husband, and we’re going to use that conversation at home.”

So I  was like, “Oh, my goodness, this one little thing,” sometimes it's just this tiny thing that people keep asking for. We didn't even see how valuable it was. And that's the genesis of this whole project, this book.

Douglas: So what are these four steps? You've got me very curious.

Alexandra: So it's a really simple, guided conversation that helps two or more people get really clear and develop just a deeper understanding of or appreciation for each other. It really creates team psychological safety. And there's some very specific things about that in terms of how you run it, right? You're the facilitator guy, so you totally get it. There's some ground rules that you got to set up. You got to set the stage.

And, you know, one thing is, I always tell people, first, never say to someone, “We need to talk.” That's the wrong way to introduce any kind of conversation.

Douglas: That’ll ruin the rest of my day. All I can think about is, “What are we talking about? What things?”

Alexandra: So, think about how you want to invite someone to a conversation or a meeting. Have a comfortable, distraction-free place. And believe me, we use this in business and in our personal lives, so we're very clear to make sure everybody is well rested. We do not do meetings at the end of the day. We just don't. Make sure you're fed. Make sure no one has had even one glass of alcohol.

Those are three very basic things. Because we are human animals, our bodies are very much aligned with our brains. And if we're not fed, if we've had even a little booze, and if we're exhausted, we're not going to be present or clear. So think about those things before you get to an important conversation.

And then, get clear about what the point is. “What are we talking about and why?” And just, we're very specific. “Okay, we're going to talk about project x so we can become a great team, or we're discussing our summer vacation so that we can both have a wonderful time.” That level of clarity.

And then, you go into the conversation. A minute ago I said team psychological safety, and one of the things that we’ve learned in all of our practice and all of our research is that there is a real inequality of power in most rooms. There’s somebody who's got the power, and there's somebody—and there's extroverts and introverts. So we actually request that you time everyone, that everybody gets two or four minutes per share so that it is very equal.

And some people have—it's funny. In Bob and my relationship, he's an incredible verbal processor. He talks it out and gets clear. And I actually need to sit and be quiet for up to 15 seconds sometimes to know what I'm going to say. But when you have a timer and no one else is speaking, there's no crosstalk. It’s like, “Okay, I’ve got this space where I can just relax and think about what it is that I need to say.” So give each person the same amount of time. That is true equality.

And then, you go into the four-part conversation. So that's all the set up. And you each share your intentions, concerns, boundaries, and dreams. And you can think of intentions of, why do you want to be a part of this project? Why can this project support your personal values or your goals? What led you to get involved in this? So what are your intentions in being a part of this? And it can be super simple, like, “I want to have fun. I want to learn something, and I want to make money.” And again, you all go around; you all share the same amount of time.

And then you go into your concerns. And this is where we encourage you to start being very vulnerable in the spirit of, let's really try to discover who we are. And luckily, the human brain is incredibly good at coming up with fears and worries and concerns. In fact, it's probably the best thing that our brains are good at. And let’s tap into it. Let’s tap into that negativity bias that we have. Because actually, when you say your worries and concerns out loud in a safe space, and let's really set up these conversations like, “I want to know what you really think. You're not going to get penalized for this. Let's not take anything personally in this room,” when you say it out loud, your brain hears it, and it actually has the effect of calming down your amygdala. Your nervous system can chill out a bit. And that way you can actually get clear and calm, which leads to better decision making by the end of it.

Douglas: Well, there's a lot there to unpack. Not only the setting—the one big one is setting the initial conditions. You know, you talked a lot about being well fed, no alcohol, a comfortable space. The invitation, I think, is so critical. And I love that you use that word. Liberating Structures talks a lot about crafting a really good invitation. I think there's some real beauty in that word because it's not that we're telling you what to do. We're inviting you in. It's very open. And also, I love this notion of starting with gratitude and appreciation. Kudos for that because there's some really great design elements at play in that activity.

And when you think about the components that kind of came into this, how did you end up developing that? What did you draw inspiration from? Was it just like you just sat down and it just kind of came to you, or was there a process to kind of develop it and refine it?

Alexandra: So Bob and I have been through so many trainings and coaching programs over the years, before we even came together as a couple. When we started teaching these couples workshops, there was the seed of it. It was like, “Okay, why are we here, and what challenges could we have in getting to what you want?” Those kind of—I mean, those seem like pretty basic questions. But it took some time using it and then teaching it in other settings and boardrooms and with my clients, etc., that we’re like, “Oh, it needs to be this order: intentions, concerns, boundaries, and dreams.” It took a little time to figure out kind of the magical recipe. Like, you don't want to add the salt at the end of a recipe. It’s got to go in at the beginning so that it can spread throughout. So it really became clear through doing it what the order needed to be.

Douglas: I love that you say that, because we're big believers that facilitation requires practice and you have to develop those skills and you have to get comfortable, and a lot of it has to do with confidence. And, you know, it's similar to a musician that’s improving, right? You had to get so comfortable with your instrument that you can perform in a very rigid style. Then you're able to, then, let go and kind of flow with the moment and find what lands.

Can you tell any stories about some of the formulas that you tried that just didn't work out and why, and what the lessons to learn from that would be?

Alexandra: Actually, I want to go back to what you just said about playing an instrument. We really describe this four-part structure, we’re like, this is playing scales. You know, every great musician still practices their scales. You go dah, dah, dah, dah, right? We do one, two, three, four. And then, eventually, you can improvise. We're now so practiced with it, we'll just—let's say we had a conversation two weeks ago about visiting the in-laws, and now one of us comes up with, “Oh, you know what, I have a new boundary.” We can just, like, drop into that conversation at point C instead of point A again. So we have this shared vocabulary where we're kind of always in the conversation about different topics. And that's just—

What's really, really helpful—I'll tell you what my life was like before I learned how to have tough conversations using this structure was I just didn't have tough conversations. I just avoided hard topics. This has given me a sense of—like you said, you have to become confident as a facilitator—I just become confident. Okay, I have four buckets to put all my thoughts and feelings in. And now I know that the science to a good conversation is coming back to the topic, not letting it get off and create—I think that's one of the reasons why I avoided emotional or high-stakes conversations, because I thought I'm going to have to prove everything I believe is right and have logical arguments for everything, and somebody is going to win, and somebody's going to lose. With this structure, it's like, no, we're just in information-gathering zone. And we develop empathy for each other through it, which is so important. That's like the sweet spot of alignment.

Douglas: Yeah. That’s amazing.

I was thinking a bit about this notion of being afraid to have some of those conversations, and maybe it's not like people might hear that and think, “Oh, I'm daunted by all this fear,” but sometimes it's just subconscious, right? Sometimes we don't even entertain the thought, because our brains are protecting us from that thing that we're deeply fearful of or just avoiding.

And I recently saw some really awesome facilitation guides. It was a guide, but it contained some prompts. And it was written by DiAngelo, who is the author of White Fragility, and these prompts were for basically starting conversations that are hard to start. And she called them silence breakers. And as you talked about being more equipped to have these conversations now, it got me really excited. It reminded me of this notion of silence breakers. And I think it's really important and it's amazing to hear that your work is headed in that same direction.

So as folks start to think about being able to open up in this way or what that experience is like, what should they consider or how should they—what are some things that they need to keep in mind?

Alexandra: I’m so glad you asked that. So we covered intentions and concerns, the first two steps. The third one is boundaries. And that is a very challenging topic for people to come up with answers for. What are my boundaries? And it's not like ordering off a menu, where I’m going to say something and it's a demand of, this is what you're going to do for me or this is what I must have. Think of it like, what are the things I need, the conditions that help me show up to be my best? What are the way—think of them as starter boundaries, right? Take the pressure off of things to be perfect. Think of it as, what do you need to be your personal best? What will help keep us from reaching burn out? What rules or standards help us work together best?

One of the things we discovered, and I cannot believe it took me until my 40s to realize this, but do not start an important conversation at bedtime. Don’t. Just don’t. It's okay to go to bed angry or unclear, truly. That has been a game changer in my marriage. And I've seen it happen in the workplace, too. People are like, “We have to figure this out today. We're staying until it's done.” Actually, everybody's exhausted, and nobody is going to show up and be their best right now, so it's okay for us to take a break and for us to honor the exhaustion that's present.

Douglas: Yeah, I love this notion of boundaries. I'm a big fan of compartmentalization, so what is the right way to—like, where do we put this thought, and what's important right now in this moment? And if we can constrain things and really just kind of neatly package them up, then we can better be in service of the work that we're doing. Maybe we need to put some things aside. Maybe some things are off limits. That's really, really awesome.

The thing that I'm curious about is, just to get your reaction to this idea of honoring yourself, and authentic relating, they have this notion—well, this ground rule—of honoring yourself. So if someone asks something of you, because this is very deeply relating kind of work that they're doing, and so someone could ask you a very personal question because we're trying to build connection, and so there's this notion of, if you don't feel comfortable, then just pass. And so only contribute at the level that you feel comfortable contributing. I think there's some beauty in that. And it's similar to this being gracious with each other.

Alexandra: Well, there’s two things that you're reminding me of that I think are so important. Generally, in the room, if there is a designated leader in a work situation, that might be more obvious, right? Like, the team leader or the C-suite-level person. But in our relationship, perhaps the leader could be considered the person who's bringing this topic up. So they're leading the initial situation. That person, we realized, they need to be the most brave. They need to be the most courageous and the most vulnerable. They need to set the tone for, like, “I am going to be super vulnerable here. I'm really going to share my heart and my truth here,” so that everybody else is like, “Oh, wow. Okay. This person has been really vulnerable. I'm going to maybe go an inch further in sharing my truth now.” So that's one aspect.

But the other one is we really encourage—and this is something I do personally all the time—I go through these four steps by myself, and I write out my thoughts. And we will often—I've definitely coached my clients to do this. We've even done it as a couple, even though we've used this hundreds of times now. We will, like, “Okay, you know what, tomorrow we're going to talk about this topic,” to give ourselves some time to think about our intentions, concerns, boundaries, and dreams, before we meet so that we just have some time to gather our thoughts and maybe be more coherent in how we express ourselves. And that is very compassionate and very thoughtful, because not everyone is a verbal processor. Some people need to write it out or take a walk and think about it first. Why not give people a little more time if you're able to?

Douglas: Absolutely. And we often think about multisensory experiences because there's kind of a myth that some people are visual learners and some people are auditory learners. The fact of the matter is we all learn through many different forms, and in any given moment, we may be more attuned to a different style, and we kind of need it all. And so if we as workshop facilitators and designers want the best out of our participants, we need to consider those things. So I think that's really fantastic. And we've even been asking people to do that silent solo work as part of the workshop, because, frankly, people are jam-packed schedules and are super busy, so the pre-work rarely gets done. So to be in service of those people, like you say, that are slower or need more reflection time, just bake it in. And the people that don't need it, well, they'll be fine.

Alexandra: Yeah. You can doodle—

Douglas: Yes, exactly.

Alexandra: —while the rest of us write.

Douglas: That’s right.

So I wanted to come back to this comment you made about being authentic. And I think it might have been in the preshow chatter. But when you brought it up, it was around this notion of, you had this strong pull to be true to the brand you've built and true to this identity that was out in the world, and being authentic to your body, to your DNA, to your cellular—like, everything that was physical about your situation was screaming that you needed to behave in a certain way. If you were going to be authentic to that, you had to leave some other stuff behind. In fact, potentially friends and it could have had an impact on livelihood. And that must've been a really challenging moment. And if I really compare it to some of the challenges other people face, it trivializes some of these situations people find themselves in, yet they can't be authentic. And I think it's just may be a beacon to those that are in meetings and not being authentic, because the best way to get to where you want to go and to build strong teams is to be authentic. Sure, you can be a role model in the work that you've already done. But are there any tactics or things people can think about as to how they can really tap into what it means to be authentic for them?

Alexandra: And I can't understress how—and this is true for me and my life. You know, I am myself, and you may have a very different, unique experience. But when I feel I am living inauthentically, I am just incapable of being happy. You know, there was a year and a half where I was hiding that I was eating meat. My business was suffering. My energy was suffering. Everything about my life felt frustrating. And I would rather blow up my life by being really honest, and not honest in a way like, I’m going to tell you what I really think about you. No. Me being honest to myself. I would rather have to deal with the repercussions of that. But I tell you how I've been able to—I mean, since I met Bob and since we've been using this format of communication, I feel so incredibly safe and held because we are both in this radical honesty together where it's very clear, like, we're allowed to evolve and change, and we have a structure that's going to hold us as we evolve and change together and as individuals. I didn't have that in my first marriage, and I witnessed that many people don't feel safe to evolve and change and be themselves. So if you can't change with the people around you, I don't know that you are allowing yourself to change.

Douglas: Yeah. That's interesting because I think that applies deeply inside teams, too, especially as we find ourselves in more and more complex situations. We're not in the days of the factory, where things are repeatable and the same widgets coming down the assembly line every day, one day after the other, or we can just follow a recipe. And so the change itself is changing, and teams have to be able to adapt. And I think the willingness to reinvent the team and be different tomorrow than we were yesterday is really important.

Alexandra: And the last step of the four-part conversation is probably the most important, and it definitely needs to happen at the end, which is you share your dreams. And this is very specific. If this goes incredibly well, what will be true for you as an individual, for us as a team, for the people impacted around us? How will you feel? What will have shifted? You really get into best-case scenario, imagination land, and you start to feel the oxytocin flowing, the connection. And when I hear from you what your dreams are, and I really feel you connected to that, it's almost impossible for me to not want that for you, too. And it really, even if there are concerns and boundaries which seem to be in conflict, and you know that you've got some figuring out to do after this conversation, the dreams brings you all back together. Okay, how can we work together to make this work? It's a really foundational.

Douglas: I'm going to switch gears a little bit, though. Food's been a pretty core part of your life, and it's hard to do work and it's hard to meet as a team without eating, without having food. And when we met in person, when we had workshops in real life, we had to think about, what's for lunch, and what's the catering, what are we going to order? And that's not as much of a concern anymore.

In fact, I've seen some jokes around the Internet. I think it was a lady. Her husband was attending a virtual conference. And so she prepared a bunch of horrible food for his virtual-conference experience. So like, soggy wraps. Yeah, exactly. Dry chicken, soggy wraps.

Alexandra: Really bad chicken.

Douglas: Had some pudding in a little cocktail dish. But all joking aside, what is your recommendation, as a health coach, for teams that are wanting to think about, what is a great workshop diet? What should they be thinking about eating when they're wanting to concentrate more, to work together, stay focused?

Alexandra: I'm so glad you brought this up. This is one of my favorite things to talk about. No conference cookies. Just keep the sugar out of it. Seriously. It does not help in the long run. Everybody crashes. Fruit, for sure. Have some of those natural sugars. Have some in-season, good-quality fruits. Variety of things. People do need a little bit sugar. But if you eat two cookies, half an hour, hour from now, you're worthless.

Douglas: As a diabetic, I've had to dive into a lot of this stuff. And the thing that really clicked for me, it's okay if you have a little sugar. It's okay if you have some fat. But when you mix fat and sugar, that's doing a major whammy on you. And I think that's where desserts really kill us. And it’s like if you're eating fruit, it's literally no fat and it has fiber, which is good. It's going to slow down absorption. But man, the fat actually hijacks your system, and you absorb the sugar slower, but it really hits you harder on the end because your body can't pull it down as fast because it really stays with you a lot longer and just, I mean, it really does a number on you. And that's where the cookies are different than the fruit.

Alexandra: Yeah. So I recommend, get the sodas out of the room. Have iced tea. Caffeine, I think, is the drug that we all got to keep in the room, in some form, but have it be unsweetened stuff if at all possible. And have high-protein stuff. Have good-quality meats and veggies. Keep the sugar as much out of the room as possible.

And the other side of it is it's not just about the food that we eat. You've got to include movement breaks regularly. Do not make people sit for an hour, even. Do some kind of, “All right, everybody’s going to stand up, and we're going to stretch at the 30-minute mark.” It releases BDNF in the brain, brain-derived neurotrophic factor. It's like Miracle-Gro for your brain. It really gets you back up. Do a little bit of breathing exercises. That's as important as what you eat.

Douglas: Yeah. I love that. We love the stretch-and-share fun activity, and especially in the virtual space, because cadence and turn taking can be strange and foreign, and you can't just go around the circle. So, yeah. Getting out of the chair. And as a facilitator, I think it's really important to really model that behavior and encourage it, and make sure that people know that, man, this is serious stuff, Zoom fatigue and other things. It's not only the—you talked about the benefits of getting the movement so that it's improving our thinking and that we're coming with better ideas. But there's actually a negative consequence of not doing some of this stuff, making sure people don't just use the breaks as an opportunity to say, “I’ll tab over their email and just start doing more text stuff.” Excellent.

Alexandra: Yeah.

Douglas: I want to talk a little bit about differentiated learning and just to hear a little bit about the work that you're doing around supporting folks that might have different needs. And so when you're working through some of this alignment stuff, do you ever run into situations where maybe someone's struggling with concerns or boundaries? And how do you help those individuals that just maybe need a little something different than the rest of the group?

Alexandra: That's a really great question. And I can actually bring an example from my 13-year-old son. He has dyslexia and ADHD. So he thinks differently than I do. His brain just works differently. And I find that breaking it up into actually two or three versions of the same conversation over the space of a couple days. Like, I pre-set the scene, day one. “Hey, we need to talk about,” like we just did today, “We need to talk about going back to school in the fall because we don't know what schools are going to look like here in New York City. There's all kinds of ideas, and nobody knows what's up. And we know there's a couple of options on the table. So here's what I know so far. Do you have any concerns or questions about that before we talk about it in a couple of days with your dad? Just to drop it in there and ask him the open-ended questions so that in the background it's running. His brain can be prepared to think about it in a day or two.

Douglas: I love that. I always talk about the best workshop homework is where they don't really have to do anything, but they’re doing it.

Alexandra: Yeah.

Douglas: Right? Because if it's just enough to plant the seed in their subconscious, they're going to be able to participate more deeply when the time comes, versus giving them a bunch of busy work or having them go do things that require present, hands-on stuff, which no one does.

Alexandra: Yeah, yeah. I've learned so much from being his mom and helping him learn to think and me understanding how he thinks. And I've been working with women as a success-in-life coach for over 10 years, and 10 years as a health coach before that. And I just realized that different people need different versions of the same question.

Actually, in the book Radical Alignment, we give dozens of options for different scenarios. We talk about how people have used the, we call it, the all-in method. Those four steps are the all-in method. People have used it to plan their weddings, like, huge multi-continent weddings, and they planned with this. But people also use it for their design teams, and they use it in H.R., and they use it at home. So through the book, there's just dozens of ways to ask the same question, depending on your circumstances. So be willing to be flexible and curious. What’s another way I could ask this?

Douglas: Wow. I love this notion of, what is another way I could ask this? And I think the hallmark of a great listener, a great conversation, is fantastic questions. So what are some of your favorite questions?

Alexandra: I actually really love the dreams questions. What are you doing, and what would be the most amazing outcome for this? I don't think we often get the opportunity to really dream big and share it out loud in a way where we're not going to get shot down. So like, the “Oh, you, Pollyanna,” or “You're crazy.”

I'm also an artist. I come from a family of artists. It's kind of a miracle that any of us became artists, considering this culture we live in that is so down on artists. Like, “Oh, you better have a backup plan,” or “You're going to be a starving artist.” You know, those ideas just get woven into the culture. So I love the invitation. Just say, like, “What would you like for Radical Alignment to happen when it publishes?” I’m like, “I would love it to be a New York Times’ bestseller. I want this in every middle school in America. I want every eighth grader learning how to have tough conversations in a way where they feel capable.” Like, that is my dream. That’s absolutely my dream.

Douglas: That's phenomenal. So good.

And let's talk a little bit about—one of my favorite questions is, if you can make meetings better, any average meeting—because as you know, I'm on a mission to rid the world of horrible meetings—

Alexandra: God bless you.

Douglas: —if you were to do one thing or just change one thing about meetings, what would it be?

Alexandra: For people to feel really safe to be themselves. I think people are dying for an opportunity to really be safe, to be themselves, and be accepted. I mean, that's the bottom line.

Douglas: So I'd love to end with a message to the listener. So if there is anything that you’d want to leave them with, what might it be?

Alexandra: I want to invite you to try to bring structure to your conversat—I know I sound a little over the top, but this has truly changed so much about my life. It has changed decades-old family dysfunction, and it has changed my work and how successful my business is. Bring this structure to try it. Try this four-part conversation. Try it a few times. It has absolutely changed my life, my friends’ lives. The woman who wrote the foreword, she will inspire the heck out of you. An entrepreneur, who is a mom of five, she's, like, “This saved my marriage.” I’m like, that’s a great testimonial for this book. Bring a little structure to your conversations, a little bit more professional structure to your intimate conversations, and a little bit more vulnerable intimacy to your professional conversations.

Douglas: It's been a pleasure chatting with you today and hearing about your approach and your structure. I'm a huge fan of structure, and this falls right in with the work we do and what I love to talk about. So it was a tremendous pleasure chatting with you today.

And one last piece of housecleaning. How can folks find you? How can they get the book? I know it's not quite out yet. Give us a little bit to go on.

Alexandra: We would love people to go preorder the book, actually. You can go to radicalalignmentbook.com. Listen, if you buy one or a couple copies and you just give us your little order number on the website, you get a free workshop with us. If you get 10 or more copies of the book, you get an eight-week training with me and my husband. So go to radicalalignmentbook.com, order the books there from wherever you love to get books. We are going to help you use this in your life and in your business beautifully.

Douglas: Excellent. And amazon.com, other suppliers as well.

Alexandra: Amazon, Kindle, Audible, your local independent bookstore, you can order it all through radicalalignmentbook.com.

Douglas: Radicalalignmentbook.com. So incredible. And I wish you the best of luck. I hope you do make the New York Times’ bestseller list. And again, it was a real pleasure to have you on the show.

Alexandra: Thank you.

Outro: Thanks for joining me for another episode of Control the Room. Don't forget to subscribe to receive updates when new episodes are released. If you want more, head over to our blog, where I post weekly articles and resources about working bett

"Whoever said, do what you love, the money will come, they got that right. Lots of work, mind you, in between. As we like to say, your passions determine your purpose. But it's your decisions that determine your destiny." - Michael Wilkinson

I'm pleased to have Michael Wilkinson here with me today for Episode 9 of the Control the Room Podcast. Michael is the CEO and Managing Director of Leadership Strategies, the largest provider of professional facilitation in the country.

Michael, who grew up in the projects as what his sister described as a "Sesame Street Gangster," eventually found himself at a New England prep school through an opportunity found through his job as a paperboy. After turning down an acceptance to Harvard Business School, Michael abandoned his 10-year plan to become undersecretary of Housing and Urban Development to begin a "faith-walk" that ultimately ended in his founding Leadership Strategies.

In today's episode, Michael and I talk about his path to the International Association of Facilitators Hall of Fame, what makes a facilitator great, and the six P's of preparing for a meeting. Listen in to find out how Michael identifies and trains facilitators with great potential and how to ask the right questions in meetings.

Show Highlights

[1:38] Michael's childhood in the projects of D.C.

[5:39] Michael's path to facilitation

[10:30] What makes a great facilitator

[17:17] Human connection in a virtual environment

[26:07] Generating engagement when facilitating virtually

[28:58] The only 3 reasons people disagree

[35:16] The Six P's of preparing for a meeting

[40:56] Kumbaya facilitators

[42:45] Asking the right questions

[50:03] Leadership Strategies' resources for facilitators

Links | Resources

Michael on LinkedIn

Leadership Strategies Website

About the Guest

Michael Wilkinson is the CEO and Managing Director of Leadership Strategies, a leadership training and strategy consulting firm that specializes in group facilitation. He is also the author of books such as Secrets of Facilitation, Facilitating Strategy, and CLICK: The Virtual Meetings Book. In 2016, Michael was awarded a place in the International Association of Facilitators Hall of Fame.

Voltage Control is a facilitation agency that helps teams work better together with custom-designed meetings and workshops, both in-person and virtual. Our master facilitators offer trusted guidance and custom coaching to companies who want to transform ineffective meetings, reignite stalled projects, and cut through assumptions. Based in Austin, Voltage Control designs and leads public and private workshops that range from small meetings to large conference-style gatherings.

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Android

Stitcher

Voltage Control on the Web

Contact Voltage Control

Intro: Welcome to the Control the Room Podcast, a series devoted to the exploration of meeting culture and uncovering cures for the common meeting. Some meetings have tight control, and others are loose. To control the room means achieving outcomes while striking a balance between imposing and removing structure, asserting and distributing power, leaning in and leaning out, all in the service of having a truly magical meeting.

Douglas: Today I'm with Michael Wilkinson. Michael is the CEO and managing director of Leadership Strategies, Inc., a leadership training and strategy consulting firm specializing in group facilitation. Michael is the author of the bestselling The Secrets of Facilitation, and most recently, Click: The Virtual Meetings Book. Welcome to the show, Michael.

Michael: It is my pleasure, Douglas, and thank you for introducing me to your audience.

Douglas: Absolutely. It's a pleasure to have you. And I guess, speaking of the audience, I think they'd love to hear how you got started in this amazing work of facilitation.

Michael: Well, as you know, because you've been there, and many who are facilitators know, there is no front door to facilitation. It's not like you can go to college and go, "I want a degree in facilitation." Most people enter through the back door. The major entry ways, many come through H.R. Others come through the processing-quality side. Some come through the I.T., the consulting side; from the D&I, diversity-inclusion side. I was on the I.T. side.

So I was one of those kids—in fact, if you back up my story a little bit, I'm a projects kid. I grew up in the projects of D.C.. So for those who know D.C., back in the day, Anacostia, the worst neighborhood in D.C., and I have to confess, at six, I was one of those bad kids, where we're stealing from the local grocery store. Remember the corner grocery stores that used to exist? We would—and this is really bad—we would, at six years old, we were tying kids to trees and leaving them out all night. I mean, it was before gangs were gangs. My sister called this the Sesame Street Gangsters. It was just not good.

And by the time I got to seven, we moved from what I call lower-lower class—the projects of D.C.—to lower-middle class, out in what's today is Suitland, Maryland. And at that time, and people who believe that place doesn't matter, place absolutely matters. The kids in that neighborhood, they were building clubhouses. They had a chess club. And so me and my brothers, we started doing what they started doing. Even got a paper route, if you can remember the old paper boys, where you deliver papers. Had two paper routes, making money for my family.

And the change, the big change, in life came when, at 14, the Post building, the Washington Post, sponsored interviews for private schools, and any of the carriers could come for an interview. I got interviewed, got accepted to a couple of the really big private schools in New England, started going to this New England prep school. My graduating class, 50 people, 50 people in the graduating class, including—and you won't know these names unless you were into that movement—but the Wares of Long Island, Paula Ware; General Patton's grandson, the Stacks of Greenwich is—do you remember all superlatives in the yearbook, "first to make a million"? Well, we had a superlative, "already has a million," and there were two names. These are trust-fund kids. But I had gotten pulled into that environment.

And as a senior, I did a study of grades and test scores. I was a psych major at the time. So a correlation in prep school of the—and I got the grades and test scores of my graduating class. Of course, the registrar stripped off the names, but he left them in alphabetical order, Douglas, so it was too hard to find Wilkinson. And to say my test scores were lower would be true, but an understatement. I was so much lower than the next lower person, I clearly took someone's place. Talk about affirmative action, they reached out and got me. They were looking for a black kid, and I was the only black kid in my graduating class. But I graduated fifth in the class, which means it wasn't really fair that I took someone's place. But it also wasn't fair that I hadn't had the preparation that all the other kids did.

So once I got it, I just excelled. Went off to a New England prep school, and I came out. I was going to be undersecretary of Housing and Urban Development. I had a 10-year plan—even back then, Douglas, I was a planner—a 10-year plan to become undersecretary of Housing and Urban Development. I was going to go back to Harvard Business School. I'd gotten accepted. I'd asked for a two-year deferment. Decided I wanted to work for two years in D.C. so I could see how Washington worked and how the different agencies worked. And somewhere along the line, got the spiritual thing. So I'm a son of a minister, so I got really clear on getting directed from the Spirit, and had that what we call the bathroom experience, the second major shift in life. So they're actually the third. The first, of course, was moving out of the projects. The second, getting the scholarship to go to New England boarding school. The third was hearing in the shower, from out of nowhere, "Michael, if your most important relationship is your relationship with Me, how is going to Harvard Business School going to help you do that?" There you go. There's 10-year plan down the drain, Douglas.

So ended up, I quit my job, I told Harvard I wasn't coming, and went on a six-month faith walk, where just—and things are great when you do a faith walk, Douglas, where these things are great 29 days out of the month. It's when that rent is due, that's when things get really hairy. But it was one of the most important times of my life and learned some really important lessons. And the most important one, because I was asking, "Okay, God, you don't want me to do this 10-year plan. It was clearly my plan. Well, what do You want me to do? You want me to become a minister? You want me to go off on a mountain and contemplate my navel. Do You want me to stand on the corner and say, 'Have you asked, talked about, thought about God today?'" And I got that direction, and a really important direction, that each of us is called to ministry. Ministry is service. That's what it's called for. Some people, it takes the form of the pulpit. For other people, it takes another form. Facilitation is my ministry.

I ended up facilitating, 1985 is my first official facilitated session, in a session where we were doing requirements analysis, and it was going south. Vendor was presenting, just going all over the place. I was the youngest kid in the room. We have, you know, the consultants. I was with Ernst and Young, the youngest consultant on the team, but nobody was stepping up. So I just got up and said, "You know what, let's structure this a little differently." And so here with the client people, with our own consultants, and with this vendor, restructured the conversation and led it for that three hours going forward. Afterwards, someone said, "That was a great facilitated session." Douglas, I was like, "What? What are you talking about? What's this thing called…" I had no idea. And then when they explained it to me, I said, "Oh, yeah. It's easy. Everybody is good at it." And that's where I learned everybody was not good at this thing called facilitation that I had been gifted with some natural talents that made me instinctively good at it. And so I started doing it, started facilitating for my church, started facilitating for the nonprofit associations I was a part of.

And then the fourth major shift in life came. This is the call that actually changed my trajectory again. Connie Bergeron—I remember. It was March 1991. She called and said, "Hey, we're looking for a facilitator. I've just been named head of Meeting Professionals International for the Atlanta chapter. I'm getting my officers together for a retreat. It's going to be on this particular weekend. Would you facilitate it for me?" I looked over my calendar, Douglas, and said, "Sure. I'd be glad to." And, again, she said the words that changed my life, "And we'll pay you." Really? I mean, I was willing to do it for free because it's fun. So she paid me. It was great. Two months later she called me back. Mentioned the pay word again. Three months later called me back.

It was November of 1992, 1992, yes. I was, at that point, 18 months from becoming a partner at Ernst and Young. I turned to them, Douglas, and said, "I'm having way more fun on the weekends than I'm having during the week," and left and started Leadership Strategies, the facilitation company. Do you like to say world headquarters, our second bedroom, which is great. Big plans, but just getting started. And it has been an amazing blessing.

Today, we're the largest provider of professional facilitation across the country. We have 600 facilitators under contract. We have a core team of 27 facilitators. We've trained 28,000 people in facilitation skills; written six books on facilitation, the two you mentioned and four others. It is crazy. Here's this kid from the projects, and it's been just amazing blessing. Whoever said, do what you love, the money will come, they got that right. Lots of work, mind you, in between. As we like to say, your passions determine your purpose. But it's your decisions that determine your destiny. And so it was just a bunch of decisions that helped me along the way. And it's been just a tremendous blessing.

Anyway, long story, but thought your listeners might enjoy understanding, how did I get here? because it's been a crazy, crazy ride.

Douglas: Yeah. I mean, wow, impressive. And, you know, I think most facilitators can relate to this kind of moment of—well, kind of two moments that you described—the moment where you start to—these kind of natural talents start to click. You know, for me, it was always, I always found myself in meetings where people were disagreeing, but really they were saying the same thing but just in different ways, or they thought they were agreeing but they were saying different things. And I always had to interject and say, "Hold on for a second. I think you're saying this and you're saying this," and they're both nodding their heads. And then they stop for a second and realize that they were saying different things. And that happened enough and enough and enough that I realized that, man, that's something that I'm not seeing enough out of other people. And so I think that's something that's a hallmark of a facilitator, when you realize that in meetings, there's something about what you're observing or the way things are unfolding that really align with this ability to help move things forward in a natural and productive way. So I think—

Michael: You really have touched on something that's really important, and many facilitators may know it or not know it. When we were doing training early on, I was recognizing that there were people who were learning the techniques but missing some things that were going to make them a great facilitator, even though they knew all the same stuff that others knew or that we were training other people in. And I realized, and you put it well, that we talk about now seven key characteristics to look for. And people ask us, "Hey, we've purchased your training class. We're going to have a training for 16 people. How do I choose the 16 people in the class?" And we tell them, "Here's some target characteristics to look for." We talk about seven, and we tell them, "Really it's three that's really important. And oh, by the way, the first two we can do nothing about."

So those three, just quickly, one is you got to like people, right? If you don't like people, this is not something you should be doing, because people give you lots of reasons not to like them. So you really have to have a starting point, where you really like people.

Two, you have to be able to process information quickly because there's so much coming and your mind has to be listening and processing at the same time and being able to differentiate, yeah, this is the same as that. This is different from this. This is…while you're listening, being able to process that. And if you can't process quickly, really, all you're going to be is a meeting manager. And great facilitators are way more than meeting managers because they're able to capture the spirit of a group; help engage them; and help guide them; can see down the road and around the corner, see the car or the truck that's coming that they're about to crash into, long before they're getting there, because they're processing while stuff is going on.

So clearly, you have this skill, and then could recognize, a lot of people don't, "Well done, sir. Applauding you. Well done."

Douglas: Well, yeah. You know, it's funny. I don't know how many times you've been speaking with someone that's maybe interested in learning facilitation or even a prospect or whatnot, and it turns out they're conflating facilitator and moderator. And I think that's maybe the big—and I think when you say meeting manager, it's all in that same bucket of, like, not facilitator.

Michael: Yes. And it really, I mean, it really is because there are some people, people who are great speakers, think, "Okay, I'd be a good facilitator." People who are great trainers, "Wow. I could be a good facilitator." And we say, okay, let's separate this, because, as you know, facilitation has got convoluted with a bunch of stuff. So ATD, the Association for Talent Development, uses the name facilitator for trainers. And that's fine. Training facilitators, that's good. We can infer very much. But we are more group facilitators. In our business, it's kind of interesting because what we find is in general, this isn't completely true, but in general, our best trainers are extroverts. Our best group facilitators are introverts. One of my people who worked for us many years, she said something to me one day, and it's like, this capsulizes it well. She said, "You know, Michael, I like facilitating, but I really love training." I said, "Okay, Leslie, I'll bite. Why do you really love training?" She said, "Well, when you're facilitating, you really have to listen to them." And there you go. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. You get where I get that? Really rings the bell of why introverts, who are, really, they value listening and processing a lot more than extroverts, who generally like expressing. And so if you generally like expressing, you may find that training is way more your passion than facilitating, where you're really listening, contemplating, and helping a group move in a direction and so on. Interesting, yes?

Douglas: Yes. And, you know, I can find that really fascinating because usually we like to pair up someone who's kind of a classical trainer—

Michael: Yes.

Douglas: —and has that air, that performance aspect with a facilitator in these training sessions, because then that person can put on the dog-and-pony show while the facilitator is making sure that learning's integrated, because if you're not listening and working with them, you don't know if it stuck.

Michael: And so what's interesting, I'm going to take you a step further, and I'm really biased here, that I really think we figured out in our company or we'll wait to think about how to make training work, because we don't hire trainers to train people in facilitation. We hire facilitators to train people in facilitation because they understand and role model all the techniques. But then we teach them about how important it is, with one of our eight principles in our facilitation course, all has to do with energy and keeping the energy high because that's one of the hallmarks of our practice. So we have to be able to, we call it show time. As an introvert, I get my energy from within, and people often are surprised when they see me do my thing, and then at the end of it, it's like I'm the thumb in the mouth. I need a blankie. It happened twice before I realized this was a bad idea, Douglas.

Clients who, when I was about, I was going to facilitate a two-day training session. Let's say it started on a Tuesday. The client said, "Hey. Why don't you fly in Monday night, meet with the team, they'll get to know you, and then we'll get started Tuesday morning?" Douglas, I did that twice. I'd never do that again, never, ever, ever, because what happens is, because I'm a natural introvert, when they meet me Monday night, the side conversations. "This is our facilitator? Really?" because—

Douglas: We got a meeting with this guy all day?

Michael: —I'm quiet. I'm just, that's who I am. But once I—I'm glad we meet with them Tuesday night, because after that, they've already seen me. And now they're asking me the questions, not looking for me to entertain them, because I'm not an extrovert. I'm an introvert. So very different. So it's what we do in order to make it work.

Douglas: Well, and nowadays we're in the midst of a pandemic. So all the team dinners are a thing of the past.

Michael: Well, actually, actually, think about it. It really is. We still need—the social engagement is central. And so we as facilitators have to recognize, how do we make that happen, even in a virtual environment? And so we do that. So we may have this session from eight to five, and then we have a virtual cocktail hour for everyone. We break for 30 minutes, everyone grabs their favorite drinks, and we have a virtual cocktail hour for 30 minutes, an hour, as we would if it was a real session. But it's an important piece, so we can't miss it. That's for sure.

Douglas: Yeah. And the human connection is so, so critical.

Michael: How are you all doing it in your business? How are you keeping the human connection going during this?

Douglas: Man, you know, I think it's always been a part of the design. And I think as long as it's a focus as a guiding principle, when you're designing an agenda for a session, it'll find its way in. I think it's important to start there first, right?

Michael: Oh, it always helps.

Douglas: Yeah, yeah. And I love this notion of the cocktail hour. Everyone has demanding schedules in this virtual space, right? And so they might have kids to run off to—

Michael: Absolutely.

Douglas: —or they've slotted it in. And it's a lot different than, you know, having taken the effort to drive somewhere and like, "Okay, I'm here. Maybe I'll just stick around for a little bit longer." We always just make it clear that, okay, the plenary is done; we're going to be around a little bit longer because I know some people like to stick around. Because I like to refer to it as, you know whenever you're cleaning up the supplies, people stick around and ask you questions?

Michael: Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Douglas: In virtual, there are no supplies. You can just shut MURAL and Miro or whatever off, and we're done.

Michael: We're done. Bye.

Douglas: So I like to tell people, "All right. Well, now we're cleaning up, and we'll be around for a little bit longer. If you want to ask any questions, we'll be here. But don't feel like you have to stay if you have places to be."

Michael: That's a great idea. Douglas, I'm writing that down. "Hey, we're going to have a clean up or stick-around time for those who…" I like that. You'll see a blog about that soon. I like that. Courtesy of Douglas.

Douglas: I love the cocktail-hour notion, too. It's like, I'm just making sure we reserve that time for people. In fact, it was BBC released a report, and the headline was quite hilarious. It was like, "Research Finds That Most Meetings Are a Form of Therapy," or "Most Meaningless Meetings Are a Form of Therapy." And the point was, and you hear that and you're like, "Well, that seems kind of crazy," but it's kind of interesting because it's like people gravitate toward having these meaningless meetings, these meetings that nothing comes out of them because they have this need to have connection. And so if you think about it, if we get really intentional about our connection during meetings and plan them in, then people don't have to plan these extraneous things that then waste time.

Michael: Well done. Well done. And we think that the pandemic has changed a lot of things. Unfortunately, one thing it hasn't changed is poor meetings. In fact, they've gotten poorer in the sense that with this virtual thing that people actually think that, well, because it's a virtual meeting, it takes less preparation or because it's—and we are finding, just as in our training work, we've converted virtual sessions where maybe 5 percent, 4 percent of our business prior to the pandemic, now it's 95 percent. And our facilitators are finding it's way more work, whether it's a virtual meeting or virtual training, way more work to prepare for it. Way more.

And the key is, we call it the virtual details, that where before you would have, okay, let's say we have a process-improvement session. And so we're going to start with (a) introduction; then section (b) we're going to talk about how does that process work today? Let's say we're trying to fix the hiring process in the company; (c) we're going to talk about the problems and causes; (d) we're going to brainstorm potential solutions; (e) we're going to reformat the process; (f) we're going to put together implementation plan; and so on. Well, that's what we'd do if it was face to face. We'd go, okay, (b) here's what I'm going to do with the flip charts. I'm going to set them up. And we know instinctively to do that.

Virtual, whole different world. We say with each of those agenda items, do what you normally would do. But you also have to figure out the virtual details. So (b) you know what, I'm going to do a poll; action (c) I'm going to use the whiteboard; action (d) I'll do annotations; (e) I'm going to use a breakout group with…and then we…

So we teach a course now called the Zoom Plus. And what that is, is everyone is now using Zoom, and you know wow. All those people, Zoom meetings, they're not even using all the basic Zoom stuff. Annotation, whiteboard, breakout groups, and so on. So we show them. And we like to say, "We are going to play with the technique so that you do it. You'll play with them. Then, we're going to take the camera and put it behind the facilitator so that you can see how the facilitator creates the polls, how the facilitator creates the breakout rooms, and then you're going to do it." So that's using the basic stuff. And then, Zoom Plus, the plus part of that is we then show them what our facilitators do. And these are 15 virtual-engagement strategies, things like rotating flip charts. How do you use—how do you have the groups rotate through? Last person standing, dump and clump, and all these other advanced engagement strategies, using them, doing them, and doing them virtually. All cool stuff. So we first tried to get them using the basics, which most people aren't using. And then we're showing them, here's how you use the advanced strategies that will make your meetings absolutely stand out. And people, as we like to say, you know you've gotten there when you hear people go, wow, that was the best virtual meeting I ever attended. And unfortunately, as you can imagine, Douglas, it's easy to be the best, because most are so poor and boring.

Douglas: The bar is so low. So low.

Michael: It is. Exactly. You've had the experience.

Douglas: So. Yeah. And, you know, I think there's so much—early on, folks were asking, "Oh, do we get a discount for virtual?" And I'm like, "Man, I'm thinking about charging a premium," because it's not only the prep time, but, you know, having an assistant facilitator is so much more critical because someone has to manage the tech.

Michael: Absolutely. And what we're finding is frequently—I would put it in the 20 percent time—the facilitator has an issue. So as an example, one of our rules is for client sessions, client sessions, you never underscore underscore. Use your microphone on the computer. You always call in over the phone. The reason is if something happens to one of the two, you still have the other. So for some reason, you lose Internet connection, you can still talk to them. Or some reason the audio goes out, you can convert to what's happening. So you actually want to have redundant backup.

We often suggest that you have another computer connected. So you have two sessions going, one is the participant computer. So if something happens, you can transfer over quickly to make it seamless. So it's almost like you run out of flip-chart paper. You run out of flip-chart paper, you always have a spare right there. Well, how do you do that virtually?

Douglas: Planning on the redundant systems, having the activity by activity, having what is the virtual equivalent of all of this? Have I taken the time to proof it and make sure it's good? I mean, that is a lot of extra work, and not to mention just the fatigue of these environments.

And, you know, I recently spoke with someone. They were telling me that—I'm not sure where the research came from, so this is all anecdotal—but they were saying that any time we're typically working in a three foot kind of context, it's typically a fight or a mating scenario.

Michael: Wow.

Douglas: Because you don't get three feet in someone's face inside the meeting room. That would be awkward. But now we're doing that with these computers and is very sometimes mostly charged, political, like, we're talking about some really intense stuff. And we go in, and we try to—one mistake we made early on was, let's have an eight-hour session virtually. And, you know, you can't do that virtually.

Michael: Yeah, it's much harder.

Douglas: You have to do it much shorter. And so I think there's some training of setting expectations for clients, too—

Michael: Absolutely.

Douglas: —even ones we've worked with in the past.

Michael: Yeah, yeah. And so I'm going to go a step further, because this will be—because you are correct that the virtual sessions, by their nature, the dynamic is very different. And I want to—everyone knows—not everyone knows—many are aware, and it comes out in our polls, when we ask people, what is the biggest challenge in virtual meetings? And we've asked this to thousands of people now through our webinars and so on. It always comes up with the same thing, and it's not even close. It's engagement, keeping people engaged, because people are multitasking, doing other things. And so as facilitators, that's got to be our number one focus. How do we keep people engaged?

And here is something that we ask people to consider. We as a company, we do have, we have what we call the PDI Difference—Practical, Dynamic, Interactive. And the way we do that in face-to-face sessions is we ensure that if we're training people or having a facilitated session, there will be significant engagement every 20 to 30 minutes. Thirty minutes will not go by without significant engagement, and mostly 20 minutes. So somewhere between 20 and 30 minutes. Douglas, when you go virtual, cut that bad boy in half. You've got to have significant engagement every 10 to 15 minutes. So if you're getting people together, if you are going 90 minutes between breaks, do the math. Even if you say, "Well, the beginning, there's obviously engagement. People are going." And the end of that 90 minutes you have engagement, so that means you've got to have at least four others, at least four other engagements. And if all you know is the classic engagement question-answer, question-answer, man, that meetings will wear people out. That's why it's so important for people to have all these other engagement strategies—dump and clump, last man standing, rotating flip charts, all this other stuff, to help put in people's toolbox.

And so really important for facilitators to recognize that it takes a lot more if it's virtual. And as you said, training our clients that, "Listen, you know, normally I would charge a day of prep for this, but it's virtual. And so therefore,…" Yeah. And making it clear it's extra.

Douglas: Absolutely. Let's talk a little bit about the Secrets of Facilitation.

Michael: Oh, my favorite book. Yes.

Douglas: You have over 60 secrets in that book.

Michael: It is. And really good stuff, I think, personally.

Douglas: Yeah. I'm a fan. I have it on the bookshelf behind me. And, you know, beyond the basics, things like preparing and managing for dysfunction, what do you think the biggest secret that most people don't know? Like, what's the one that you're just like time and time again does no one just…?

Michael: There are a couple that come to mind, but let me focus on this one. And I'm about to make a statement, Douglas, that when I say it in our training classes—I mentioned we trained over 20,000 people—there are always people who go, "No, that can't be right." And by the end of the teaching, they go, "Yeah, that's really true." Here is the statement: there are only three reasons people disagree. Huge secret. There are only three. Every disagreement in the entire freakin' world, there are only three reasons people disagree. Only three. Now, that's the good news, and that's really good news.

But here's the bad news, and it's really bad news. If you have a level-three disagreement and you try to solve it with level-one techniques, you're going to fail. Level-three disagreements can't be solved with level-one techniques. Likewise, you have a level-one disagreement, try to solve it with level-two techniques, you are going to fail. Can't happen. So we as facilitators have to understand the three reasons people disagree. Have to be able to diagnose which reason it is and have strategies for addressing each one. Now, while that's a teaser, I probably should take a minute to say what are those three reasons people disagree. So let's break it down really quickly.

So you probably have figured out one, two, or three of them. You want to take any guesses, Douglas, or you want me to reveal? Your shot.

Douglas: Why don't you—well, you do the reveal. You do the reveal.

Michael: Okay, I'll do the reveal. So number one, and it's most disagreements, level-one disagreements, and you actually implied it when you were talking about learning that you were a great facilitator. That is, people disagree because of information. One has information that the other doesn't have, and they're arguing, bumping heads, even though once they realize and the information is put on the table, they'll realize they weren't in disagreement at all. Level-one disagreements always end the same way. "Oh, is that what you meant?" There you go. And as we like to say, when you hear those words, your job is done, because they really weren't in disagreement. In fact, the book Crucial Conversations highlights that, they give it a name, violent agreement. They really are in agreement, but they were arguing. They were just using different words or one had information that the other didn't have. So you saw level-one disagreements, pretty simple. We as facilitators have to understand the difference between advocacy and inquiry. If you ever watched two people arguing, it's like they're fighting back and forth. Statement, statement, statement, statement. Each person is trying to advocate for theirs. If one of them would just step back and just ask the question, "Well, why do you say that? What do you mean by that?" they'll then would clarify, and you would hear those words, "Oh, is that what you meant?" There you go. Resolved. So we have to move people from advocacy mode to inquiry mode, and you do that yourself by asking questions. In a business environment, there are specific questions we train facilitators to ask, because most level-one disagreements or business are based on either cost, time, who's involved, or how it's going to happen. And so we get the questions.

Level-two disagreements are different. If the level-one disagreements are about information—again, we find most disagreements are level one—level-two disagreements are about values or experiences, that they have different values or had had different experiences that prefer one alternative over the other. They understand each other perfectly. They just value different things. Well, you can solve a value disagreement simply by identifying and isolating the key values. What are the key values that each person has? And then creating solutions, brainstorming solutions, that combine those values. It's not a compromise activity. It is a creativity activity, where, as we teach it, you can come up with some pretty novel solutions once you isolate those key values. It just works. In fact, we get more letters about that technique than any others because it really does work when you understand what you're looking to do.

Level-three disagreement is different. It's not about information. It's not about values or experiences. It's about personality, past history with one another, or some outside factor that has nothing to do with the disagreement. It's not about the disagreement. They basically don't like each other. Can you solve a level-one disagreement by asking questions about the issue? No, because it's not about the issue. Can you solve a level-three disagreement by asking about the values? It's not—yeah, you solve level-three disagreements differently. Take it to a higher source. You're not going to solve it at this level. You've got to take it up the chain. And so we talk about strategies for doing that.

But most facilitators, that secret of understanding there are only three reasons people disagree, and so when you're listening to a disagreement, we train people to say, "Hey, next time you're listening to a disagreement, just say under your breath, 'level two. Yeah, level one. Yeah, level three,' so that you can get used to diagnosing what type of disagreement it is so that you keep that mindset of, okay, here's the technique I want to use to adjust this disagreement. So it's cool stuff and really one of those fun secrets out of the 60.

Douglas: Yeah. I love frameworks like that, that can—are very actionable and we can kind of lean on them in the moment pretty easily.

Michael: Well, you know, I find that the best facilitators are process oriented, Douglas. And I'm just going to give your listeners a heads up. If you were to see the prep work that Douglas had sent out to my office around the thinking that they've already done around how to have a great podcast, it was like, oh, my gosh, this is like a cookbook. All I have to do is this part. They're doing all these other pieces. And some great process thinking, very much appreciate it, because it makes it easy. In the same way, if you can give facilitators a process to use that's been tested, proven, that they can modify and make theirs, it makes all the difference. And that's one of the things I think we're good at: giving people processes.

Douglas: Absolutely. If you could change one thing about meetings in general, what would it be?

Michael: Oh, my gosh. Wow. You're asking big questions here. If I could change one thing about meetings. Yeah, I guess—yeah, that would have to be it. Douglas, the biggest challenge I find, and we find over and over again with meetings that other people are leading, is preparation. So few people do the preparation necessary. And quite frankly, it's not a lot of work if, as you would say, there's a framework for it.

And so I'll just give your listeners a framework. We call it the six Ps. And it doesn't matter whether you are running a meeting for yourself or running a meeting for someone else, ask the six Ps, because once you know the six Ps, you execute on that and you can be really prepared. One, and you know it all starts with purpose.

Douglas: Yes. Thank you.

Michael: Why are we having this meeting?

Douglas: Yes.

Michael: Why are we having this meeting? What's the real purpose of the meeting? And then we say, "Okay, now that we're clear…" And so I'll give an example just to make it real for your listeners. Someone may come to us. "Michael, Michael, I'd love to have a team-building session for my team." First P, purpose. "Really? Help me understand what's really the purpose of the team-building session?" "Well, I need my team working together better because, you know, we kind of snipe at each other sometimes. So I really want us to have a strong, bonding experience so that we can walk out of that room, moving together, working together, feeling better about each other." "That's helpful."

Second P, product. "So what is the product you want to come out of that meeting?" "Michael, what do you mean?" "Well, think about it this way, in terms of the three Hs. When this meeting's over, what do you want your team to have in their hands that they can see?" "Well, Michael, it'd be great if we had a team vision." "Cool. Anything else?" "Well, maybe some team norms." "Okay. Anything else?" "Well, maybe if we could walk away with what's going to happen if someone violates the norm, so we have that kind of…" "Anything else?" "No, I think that's pretty good." "All right. Well, thank you. Well, let me ask you this. What do you want them to have in their head when the session is over?" "Michael, what do you mean?" "Well, what do you want them to know that they didn't know before the meeting started?" "Well, maybe I want them to know, hey, what makes a team great? What are the qualities of a great team and know how we assess against that, and what are the things we need to work on to be a great team?" "Cool, cool, great. So what do you want them to have in their hearts when the session is over?" "Michael, you getting soft on me?" "No, no, no. What do you want them to believe that maybe they didn't believe before this session was held?" "Well, I want them to believe that if we do these things, we'll be a great team. I want them to feel committed to making it happen."

"There you go. Great. Well, so you've talked about purpose and product. Let me ask you this. Tell me about the people who are going to be in the room. Who needs to be in the room that we create these products and achieve this purpose?" "Well, I want my whole team there." "Anyone else?" "Well, you know, do you think, Michael, my E.A., should be there?" "Well, let me ask you, do you think your E.A. is part of the team, work with the team? Is your E.A. part of getting things to happen?" "So, yeah, that's great." "Anyone else? There we go."

"All right. Well, we talked about purpose, product, participants. Let me ask you this. What are the probable issues that we need to address? What are the things that we absolutely need to talk about if these participants are going to create these products to achieve this purpose?" "Yeah. We've had a couple of things happen over the last few months that we really need to talk about." "Well, let's talk about what those are. Anything else we need to talk about? Great."

"Well, now let's talk about process. What's the process you're thinking we might want to take the team through so that we address these issues so the participants create the product and the purpose? Great."

And notice, by the way, Douglas, process is fifth. Many people think, "I want to hold a meeting. What's the agenda?" Wrong answer. There're four questions you have to answer first—purpose, product, participants, probable issues—before you get to process. Never start with agenda.

And then the six P is place, meaning—and it's all the stuff around the place. And in these days, the place is virtual. So let's talk about all the things around the virtual platform that needs to be.

So we say when you have those six questions answered, the six Ps of preparation, you're now ready to do the work to get well prepared for your session. So we think that's a great way to address and make meetings so much better. Just most people don't do the work. They don't think about the six Ps.

Douglas: Yeah, you know, there're so many meeting—you talked about the lack of preparation, and it's like—

Michael: Yeah.

Douglas: And so there's this weird spectrum, because on one end, no one's doing anything. So they're just kind of walking in blind, and they just threw something on your calendar called a meeting, and they're not even—so there's a lexicon and taxonomy problem.

Michael: Yes.

Douglas: And so that's a whole other thing we could get into. But then on the other hand, when they do the planning, their agenda's just a list of topics—

Michael: Yes.

Douglas: —and it's not thoughtful, it's not informed by—

Michael: Absolutely.

Douglas: —the purpose. We were just talking earlier today about the problem with icebreakers and warmups, in that—

Michael: Oh, my gosh, yes.

Douglas: —people just throw them on the agenda, without thinking about the purpose and why they're there. And I love this. I have this saying that if you can't ask your participants after doing something like that, "Why did we just do that?" and have it erupt into a pithy conversation, you need to ask yourself, "Why did we just do that?"

Michael: Oh, well said, Douglas. Well said. In fact, our company, in general, when it comes to icebreakers, we hate them because most icebreakers are just stuff. And we say, "It's good to break the ice," but you want to break the ice with an activity that furthers the purpose and product of the session. If you say, "Hey, you know what, we'd like to spend a few minutes talking about your favorite vacation spot," that's a great icebreaker if the purpose of our session is to choose a vacation spot. If it's not, leave that icebreaker at home. "Hey, you know what, we'd like to hear about your most embarrassing moment." That is a great icebreaker if this session is about dealing with embarrassing moments. If it's not, leave that icebreaker at home. Whatever you use as an icebreaker, it should further the session result, not be something, as you said, that's unpurposeful and inserted into the meeting.

Facilitators have a bad rap of, "Hey, we help people hold hands and sing Kumbaya." Read that from an executive standpoint, "We're great at wasting people's time." That's how executives view the classic Kumbaya facilitators. Our job is to make sure every moment we spend with executives is productive. It's used to get to a result that they are willing to invest in. If they're not willing to invest, we have just added non-value activity. So non-value added activity is not helpful in a facilitated session.

Douglas: Well said, my friend.

So I would love to leave our listeners with one last piece of advice. And so if you could ensure every facilitator in the world had one skill, what would it be?

Michael: That's easy. That's really easy. When you think about facilitators, when we walk into a room, our most important job is to pull out the most important information that's going to help this group get where they're going. That's our responsibility. To do that, we don't have to be good at asking questions. We have to be great at asking questions. We have to be really excellent at using questions to pull out the information that's going to help the group.

As I said in one of my early, early ad set we put together, the ad said, "Hidden inside of your company are answers to some of the most important issues facing your organization. Your people have the answers. We bring the questions." And so we teach something called the secret of the starting question. If you've ever facilitated a session and you asked this really great question and got complete and utter silence, if that's ever happened to you, what we teach is, more times than not, the reason you got silence is that you asked what we call the "type A" question instead of a "type B" question. Type A questions lead people to silence. Type B questions get people putting up their hands, jumping up and down, trying to get you to respond to them. Or you're old enough to remember Welcome Back, Kotter. We called it the Horshack effect. "Ooh, ooh, ooh, Mr. Kotter. Mr. Kotter, call on me." And that's what we want to get. And so, how do you get that? Well, it's all in how you ask the question. And we call it the secret of the starting question.

Now, just to give an example. Let's go back to my hiring process. If we're in a room and we got a bunch of people, we're trying to figure out how the hiring process works today, that's one of the first agenda items. As a facilitator, we go, "Okay, great. We're all together. We're ready to get to that first agenda item. Let's get started. How does the hiring process work today?" Crickets. "Come on, folks. You know how it works. How does it work today? What are the steps?" Crickets. "Come on, guys. You know the…" There you go.

Instead, you would ask what we call a type B question, and it sounds like this. "You know, we're ready to get started with documenting the current hiring process. I'd love for you to think about the last time you hired someone. Think about all the steps you had to go through, all the people you had to talk with, the forms or whatever you had to fill out to get that person on board. What are the steps in the current hiring process?" We call that a type B question. How is it formed? They're three steps. It's pretty easy. It's pretty simple, just not easy.

Its first step is you start with an image-building phrase. "Think about the last time…," or "If you were about to..." or "Imagine…" It doesn't start with "What…" Here comes a type B question. You're going very direct. Or "Why…" or "How…" or so on. It starts with an image-building phrase because you're trying to create an image, because when people can see their answers, they answer right away. Then, you expand the image with at least two other phrases. Then, you ask the direct question. "Think about the last time you hired someone. Think about all the steps you had to go through, all the people you had to talk with," and so on.

Because when people can see their answers, they raise their hand. When people can't see their answers, if you ask, "What are the steps in the current hiring process?" they're going to go, "Hm, let me think." What are they doing? They're trying to imagine their answers. Why? Because you didn't ask a question that helped them do it. Facilitation means to make easy. We've got to get them visualizing their answers.

So that's just one of the things. We teach nine different questioning techniques. And if we could do that for every facilitator in the world—in fact, your audience have probably heard of TED Talks. If they were to go to the TED site and type in "secret of the starting question," they would see me giving a TEDx Talk to the International Association of Facilitators on the secret of the starting question.

Douglas: I love it. So good.

It's funny, once you were starting to talk about the secret to—or the one thing that facilitators should know, and you started talking about questions, I was going to ask you, what is one of your favorite questions? But then, before I even had the opportunity, you gave us a framework for asking questions. So I'm still going to throw this at you for extra credit. Is there a question…? In fact, you threw out one of my favorites already, and that is, what did you mean by that? I think that's such a disarming question, especially if someone says something that is maybe judgmental or offensive in some way, and maybe there was no intention behind it, and we want to just give them an opportunity to unravel that or explain it.

Michael: And it helps them do it. And that's a great one. And I think one of the things you find is why questions and how questions are often challenging for people. And so you want to be careful, as we say, you want to focus on the tone. And probably my favorite, it's simple, is, "Help me understand, why is that important? Help me understand, why is it important?" because your tone could be, "So why is that important?" That's a wrong tone. No, thank you. Yeah. So tone as you ask that question, "Why is that important?" is one of my favorite questions. There have to be questions because it gets to, oh, new understanding, because I'm thinking, perhaps if you could see my thought bubble, "What does that have to do with anything we're talking about?" And so sort of just, "Hey, help me understand, why is that important?"

Douglas: Also, "Help me understand," I'm taking the blame for not understanding it, which is great. It reminds me, too—I've been listening to a lot of masterclass. And Chris Voss has a really great masterclass, and he's a master negotiator—

Michael: Oh, excellent.

Douglas: —and author of that book, Never Split the Difference. And one of his points around not using why, he never asks any why questions when he's negotiating with a hostage. And it's because, remember when you were a little kid and something you broke, something by accident, and your parents were like, "Why did you do that?" So it's just like, it brings you back to those moments. So we don't want to psychologically hijack anyone when we're asking these questions that we don't really have much intent behind.

Michael: There you go. Really important stuff. Questions are a key for facilitators. Really getting down a question framework for yourself, really good stuff.

Douglas: Absolutely. And I encourage people to check out the type B questions and all the other great stuff, the six Ps, et cetera. It's really awesome stuff.

And so if they were going to dig deeper into this, how can they find you? How can they unravel the secrets more deeply?

Michael: Well, please, our website, www.leadstrat—that's short for Leadership Strategies—leadstrat.com, and any of the resource pages. You can also, in our store, we have all the books—The Secrets of Facilitation is probably the one we've talked about the most, as well as Click: The Virtual Meetings Book. Those two are ones that in this pandemic people will find most helpful. And again, do check out—

Oh, our gift to the industry, we recognize that as part of our—we're the largest facilitation company in the country, that what we do, we typically do three or four free webinars a month. Most recently, we've been doing them on the virtual side of things, running effective virtual meetings, making Zoom hum, those kinds of things, just, really, free webinars. Of course, we do it because we know that once people get a taste of what we do, they may want to learn more. We've been doing them for over a decade now, these webinars. But please check them out. And you know what most webinars, Douglas, are thinly veiled sales pitches. For us, we go, "Okay. Please give us 60 minutes. You're going to get 55 minutes of real content, stuff you can use tomorrow. Then, the last five minutes we'll talk about for those who want to learn more." So really hardcore, hit-it content. And so it's really great. They get 400 or 500 people on every webinar, and so it's really fun stuff.

Douglas: Excellent. Well, I can't wait to check one out. And, you know, it's been a pleasure to have you on the show today.

Michael: Oh, likewise, being with you. It's just been a fun conversation.

Douglas: Absolutely. Well, thanks again, and we'll be talking to you soon.

Michael: All right. You take care.

Outro: Thanks for joining me for another episode of Control the Room. Don't forget to subscribe to receive updates when new episodes are released. If you want more, head over to our blog, where I post weekly articles and resources about working better together

“Whoever said, do what you love, the money will come, they got that right. Lots of work, mind you, in between. As we like to say, your passions determine your purpose. But it's your decisions that determine your destiny.” - Michael Wilkinson

I’m pleased to have Michael Wilkinson here with me today for Episode 9 of the Control the Room Podcast. Michael is the CEO and Managing Director of Leadership Strategies, the largest provider of professional facilitation in the country.

Michael, who grew up in the projects as what his sister described as a “Sesame Street Gangster,” eventually found himself at a New England prep school through an opportunity found through his job as a paperboy. After turning down an acceptance to Harvard Business School, Michael abandoned his 10-year plan to become undersecretary of Housing and Urban Development to begin a “faith-walk” that ultimately ended in his founding Leadership Strategies.

In today’s episode, Michael and I talk about his path to the International Association of Facilitators Hall of Fame, what makes a facilitator great, and the six P’s of preparing for a meeting. Listen in to find out how Michael identifies and trains facilitators with great potential and how to ask the right questions in meetings.

Show Highlights

[1:38] Michael’s childhood in the projects of D.C.

[5:39] Michael’s path to facilitation

[10:30] What makes a great facilitator

[17:17] Human connection in a virtual environment

[26:07] Generating engagement when facilitating virtually

[28:58] The only 3 reasons people disagree

[35:16] The Six P’s of preparing for a meeting

[40:56] Kumbaya facilitators

[42:45] Asking the right questions

[50:03] Leadership Strategies’ resources for facilitators

Links | Resources

Michael on LinkedIn

Leadership Strategies Website

About the Guest

Michael Wilkinson is the CEO and Managing Director of Leadership Strategies, a leadership training and strategy consulting firm that specializes in group facilitation. He is also the author of books such as Secrets of Facilitation, Facilitating Strategy, and CLICK: The Virtual Meetings Book. In 2016, Michael was awarded a place in the International Association of Facilitators Hall of Fame.

Voltage Control is a facilitation agency that helps teams work better together with custom-designed meetings and workshops, both in-person and virtual. Our master facilitators offer trusted guidance and custom coaching to companies who want to transform ineffective meetings, reignite stalled projects, and cut through assumptions. Based in Austin, Voltage Control designs and leads public and private workshops that range from small meetings to large conference-style gatherings. 

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Android

Stitcher

Voltage Control on the Web

Contact Voltage Control

Intro: Welcome to the Control the Room Podcast, a series devoted to the exploration of meeting culture and uncovering cures for the common meeting. Some meetings have tight control, and others are loose. To control the room means achieving outcomes while striking a balance between imposing and removing structure, asserting and distributing power, leaning in and leaning out, all in the service of having a truly magical meeting.

Douglas: Today I'm with Michael Wilkinson. Michael is the CEO and managing director of Leadership Strategies, Inc., a leadership training and strategy consulting firm specializing in group facilitation. Michael is the author of the bestselling The Secrets of Facilitation, and most recently, Click: The Virtual Meetings Book. Welcome to the show, Michael.

Michael: It is my pleasure, Douglas, and thank you for introducing me to your audience.

Douglas: Absolutely. It's a pleasure to have you. And I guess, speaking of the audience, I think they'd love to hear how you got started in this amazing work of facilitation.

Michael: Well, as you know, because you've been there, and many who are facilitators know, there is no front door to facilitation. It's not like you can go to college and go, “I want a degree in facilitation.” Most people enter through the back door. The major entry ways, many come through H.R. Others come through the processing-quality side. Some come through the I.T., the consulting side; from the D&I, diversity-inclusion side. I was on the I.T. side.

So I was one of those kids—in fact, if you back up my story a little bit, I'm a projects kid. I grew up in the projects of D.C.. So for those who know D.C., back in the day, Anacostia, the worst neighborhood in D.C., and I have to confess, at six, I was one of those bad kids, where we’re stealing from the local grocery store. Remember the corner grocery stores that used to exist? We would—and this is really bad—we would, at six years old, we were tying kids to trees and leaving them out all night. I mean, it was before gangs were gangs. My sister called this the Sesame Street Gangsters. It was just not good.

And by the time I got to seven, we moved from what I call lower-lower class—the projects of D.C.—to lower-middle class, out in what’s today is Suitland, Maryland. And at that time, and people who believe that place doesn't matter, place absolutely matters. The kids in that neighborhood, they were building clubhouses. They had a chess club. And so me and my brothers, we started doing what they started doing. Even got a paper route, if you can remember the old paper boys, where you deliver papers. Had two paper routes, making money for my family.

And the change, the big change, in life came when, at 14, the Post building, the Washington Post, sponsored interviews for private schools, and any of the carriers could come for an interview. I got interviewed, got accepted to a couple of the really big private schools in New England, started going to this New England prep school. My graduating class, 50 people, 50 people in the graduating class, including—and you won't know these names unless you were into that movement—but the Wares of Long Island, Paula Ware; General Patton's grandson, the Stacks of Greenwich is—do you remember all superlatives in the yearbook, “first to make a million”? Well, we had a superlative, “already has a million,” and there were two names. These are trust-fund kids. But I had gotten pulled into that environment.

And as a senior, I did a study of grades and test scores. I was a psych major at the time. So a correlation in prep school of the—and I got the grades and test scores of my graduating class. Of course, the registrar stripped off the names, but he left them in alphabetical order, Douglas, so it was too hard to find Wilkinson. And to say my test scores were lower would be true, but an understatement. I was so much lower than the next lower person, I clearly took someone's place. Talk about affirmative action, they reached out and got me. They were looking for a black kid, and I was the only black kid in my graduating class. But I graduated fifth in the class, which means it wasn't really fair that I took someone's place. But it also wasn't fair that I hadn't had the preparation that all the other kids did.

So once I got it, I just excelled. Went off to a New England prep school, and I came out. I was going to be undersecretary of Housing and Urban Development. I had a 10-year plan—even back then, Douglas, I was a planner—a 10-year plan to become undersecretary of Housing and Urban Development. I was going to go back to Harvard Business School. I’d gotten accepted. I’d asked for a two-year deferment. Decided I wanted to work for two years in D.C. so I could see how Washington worked and how the different agencies worked. And somewhere along the line, got the spiritual thing. So I'm a son of a minister, so I got really clear on getting directed from the Spirit, and had that what we call the bathroom experience, the second major shift in life. So they’re actually the third. The first, of course, was moving out of the projects. The second, getting the scholarship to go to New England boarding school. The third was hearing in the shower, from out of nowhere, “Michael, if your most important relationship is your relationship with Me, how is going to Harvard Business School going to help you do that?” There you go. There's 10-year plan down the drain, Douglas.

So ended up, I quit my job, I told Harvard I wasn’t coming, and went on a six-month faith walk, where just—and things are great when you do a faith walk, Douglas, where these things are great 29 days out of the month. It's when that rent is due, that’s when things get really hairy. But it was one of the most important times of my life and learned some really important lessons. And the most important one, because I was asking, “Okay, God, you don't want me to do this 10-year plan. It was clearly my plan. Well, what do You want me to do? You want me to become a minister? You want me to go off on a mountain and contemplate my navel. Do You want me to stand on the corner and say, ‘Have you asked, talked about, thought about God today?’” And I got that direction, and a really important direction, that each of us is called to ministry. Ministry is service. That's what it's called for. Some people, it takes the form of the pulpit. For other people, it takes another form. Facilitation is my ministry.

I ended up facilitating, 1985 is my first official facilitated session, in a session where we were doing requirements analysis, and it was going south. Vendor was presenting, just going all over the place. I was the youngest kid in the room. We have, you know, the consultants. I was with Ernst and Young, the youngest consultant on the team, but nobody was stepping up. So I just got up and said, “You know what, let’s structure this a little differently.” And so here with the client people, with our own consultants, and with this vendor, restructured the conversation and led it for that three hours going forward. Afterwards, someone said, “That was a great facilitated session.” Douglas, I was like, “What? What are you talking about? What's this thing called…” I had no idea. And then when they explained it to me, I said, “Oh, yeah. It's easy. Everybody is good at it.” And that's where I learned everybody was not good at this thing called facilitation that I had been gifted with some natural talents that made me instinctively good at it. And so I started doing it, started facilitating for my church, started facilitating for the nonprofit associations I was a part of.

And then the fourth major shift in life came. This is the call that actually changed my trajectory again. Connie Bergeron—I remember. It was March 1991. She called and said, “Hey, we're looking for a facilitator. I've just been named head of Meeting Professionals International for the Atlanta chapter. I'm getting my officers together for a retreat. It's going to be on this particular weekend. Would you facilitate it for me?” I looked over my calendar, Douglas, and said, “Sure. I'd be glad to.” And, again, she said the words that changed my life, “And we’ll pay you.” Really? I mean, I was willing to do it for free because it’s fun. So she paid me. It was great. Two months later she called me back. Mentioned the pay word again. Three months later called me back.

It was November of 1992, 1992, yes. I was, at that point, 18 months from becoming a partner at Ernst and Young. I turned to them, Douglas, and said, “I'm having way more fun on the weekends than I'm having during the week,” and left and started Leadership Strategies, the facilitation company. Do you like to say world headquarters, our second bedroom, which is great. Big plans, but just getting started. And it has been an amazing blessing.

Today, we're the largest provider of professional facilitation across the country. We have 600 facilitators under contract. We have a core team of 27 facilitators. We've trained 28,000 people in facilitation skills; written six books on facilitation, the two you mentioned and four others. It is crazy. Here's this kid from the projects, and it's been just amazing blessing. Whoever said, do what you love, the money will come, they got that right. Lots of work, mind you, in between. As we like to say, your passions determine your purpose. But it's your decisions that determine your destiny. And so it was just a bunch of decisions that helped me along the way. And it's been just a tremendous blessing.

Anyway, long story, but thought your listeners might enjoy understanding, how did I get here? because it's been a crazy, crazy ride.

Douglas: Yeah. I mean, wow, impressive. And, you know, I think most facilitators can relate to this kind of moment of—well, kind of two moments that you described—the moment where you start to—these kind of natural talents start to click. You know, for me, it was always, I always found myself in meetings where people were disagreeing, but really they were saying the same thing but just in different ways, or they thought they were agreeing but they were saying different things. And I always had to interject and say, “Hold on for a second. I think you're saying this and you’re saying this,” and they're both nodding their heads. And then they stop for a second and realize that they were saying different things. And that happened enough and enough and enough that I realized that, man, that's something that I'm not seeing enough out of other people. And so I think that's something that's a hallmark of a facilitator, when you realize that in meetings, there's something about what you're observing or the way things are unfolding that really align with this ability to help move things forward in a natural and productive way. So I think—

Michael: You really have touched on something that’s really important, and many facilitators may know it or not know it. When we were doing training early on, I was recognizing that there were people who were learning the techniques but missing some things that were going to make them a great facilitator, even though they knew all the same stuff that others knew or that we were training other people in. And I realized, and you put it well, that we talk about now seven key characteristics to look for. And people ask us, “Hey, we've purchased your training class. We're going to have a training for 16 people. How do I choose the 16 people in the class?” And we tell them, “Here's some target characteristics to look for.” We talk about seven, and we tell them, “Really it's three that's really important. And oh, by the way, the first two we can do nothing about.”

So those three, just quickly, one is you got to like people, right? If you don’t like people, this is not something you should be doing, because people give you lots of reasons not to like them. So you really have to have a starting point, where you really like people.

Two, you have to be able to process information quickly because there's so much coming and your mind has to be listening and processing at the same time and being able to differentiate, yeah, this is the same as that. This is different from this. This is…while you're listening, being able to process that. And if you can't process quickly, really, all you're going to be is a meeting manager. And great facilitators are way more than meeting managers because they're able to capture the spirit of a group; help engage them; and help guide them; can see down the road and around the corner, see the car or the truck that's coming that they're about to crash into, long before they're getting there, because they're processing while stuff is going on.

So clearly, you have this skill, and then could recognize, a lot of people don’t, “Well done, sir. Applauding you. Well done.”

Douglas: Well, yeah. You know, it's funny. I don't know how many times you've been speaking with someone that's maybe interested in learning facilitation or even a prospect or whatnot, and it turns out they're conflating facilitator and moderator. And I think that's maybe the big—and I think when you say meeting manager, it's all in that same bucket of, like, not facilitator.

Michael: Yes. And it really, I mean, it really is because there are some people, people who are great speakers, think, “Okay, I'd be a good facilitator.” People who are great trainers, “Wow. I could be a good facilitator.” And we say, okay, let's separate this, because, as you know, facilitation has got convoluted with a bunch of stuff. So ATD, the Association for Talent Development, uses the name facilitator for trainers. And that's fine. Training facilitators, that's good. We can infer very much. But we are more group facilitators. In our business, it’s kind of interesting because what we find is in general, this isn’t completely true, but in general, our best trainers are extroverts. Our best group facilitators are introverts. One of my people who worked for us many years, she said something to me one day, and it's like, this capsulizes it well. She said, “You know, Michael, I like facilitating, but I really love training.” I said, “Okay, Leslie, I'll bite. Why do you really love training?” She said, “Well, when you're facilitating, you really have to listen to them.” And there you go. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. You get where I get that? Really rings the bell of why introverts, who are, really, they value listening and processing a lot more than extroverts, who generally like expressing. And so if you generally like expressing, you may find that training is way more your passion than facilitating, where you're really listening, contemplating, and helping a group move in a direction and so on. Interesting, yes?

Douglas: Yes. And, you know, I can find that really fascinating because usually we like to pair up someone who’s kind of a classical trainer—

Michael: Yes.

Douglas: —and has that air, that performance aspect with a facilitator in these training sessions, because then that person can put on the dog-and-pony show while the facilitator is making sure that learning's integrated, because if you're not listening and working with them, you don't know if it stuck.

Michael: And so what's interesting, I’m going to take you a step further, and I'm really biased here, that I really think we figured out in our company or we'll wait to think about how to make training work, because we don't hire trainers to train people in facilitation. We hire facilitators to train people in facilitation because they understand and role model all the techniques. But then we teach them about how important it is, with one of our eight principles in our facilitation course, all has to do with energy and keeping the energy high because that's one of the hallmarks of our practice. So we have to be able to, we call it show time. As an introvert, I get my energy from within, and people often are surprised when they see me do my thing, and then at the end of it, it’s like I’m the thumb in the mouth. I need a blankie. It happened twice before I realized this was a bad idea, Douglas.

Clients who, when I was about, I was going to facilitate a two-day training session. Let’s say it started on a Tuesday. The client said, “Hey. Why don’t you fly in Monday night, meet with the team, they’ll get to know you, and then we’ll get started Tuesday morning?” Douglas, I did that twice. I’d never do that again, never, ever, ever, because what happens is, because I'm a natural introvert, when they meet me Monday night, the side conversations. “This is our facilitator? Really?” because—

Douglas: We got a meeting with this guy all day?

Michael: —I’m quiet. I’m just, that’s who I am. But once I—I'm glad we meet with them Tuesday night, because after that, they've already seen me. And now they're asking me the questions, not looking for me to entertain them, because I'm not an extrovert. I’m an introvert. So very different. So it's what we do in order to make it work.

Douglas: Well, and nowadays we're in the midst of a pandemic. So all the team dinners are a thing of the past.

Michael: Well, actually, actually, think about it. It really is. We still need—the social engagement is central. And so we as facilitators have to recognize, how do we make that happen, even in a virtual environment? And so we do that. So we may have this session from eight to five, and then we have a virtual cocktail hour for everyone. We break for 30 minutes, everyone grabs their favorite drinks, and we have a virtual cocktail hour for 30 minutes, an hour, as we would if it was a real session. But it's an important piece, so we can't miss it. That's for sure.

Douglas: Yeah. And the human connection is so, so critical.

Michael: How are you all doing it in your business? How are you keeping the human connection going during this?

Douglas: Man, you know, I think it's always been a part of the design. And I think as long as it's a focus as a guiding principle, when you're designing an agenda for a session, it'll find its way in. I think it's important to start there first, right?

Michael: Oh, it always helps.

Douglas: Yeah, yeah. And I love this notion of the cocktail hour. Everyone has demanding schedules in this virtual space, right? And so they might have kids to run off to—

Michael: Absolutely.

Douglas: —or they’ve slotted it in. And it's a lot different than, you know, having taken the effort to drive somewhere and like, “Okay, I’m here. Maybe I’ll just stick around for a little bit longer.” We always just make it clear that, okay, the plenary is done; we're going to be around a little bit longer because I know some people like to stick around. Because I like to refer to it as, you know whenever you're cleaning up the supplies, people stick around and ask you questions?

Michael: Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Douglas: In virtual, there are no supplies. You can just shut MURAL and Miro or whatever off, and we’re done.

Michael: We’re done. Bye.

Douglas: So I like to tell people, “All right. Well, now we're cleaning up, and we'll be around for a little bit longer. If you want to ask any questions, we'll be here. But don't feel like you have to stay if you have places to be.”

Michael: That’s a great idea. Douglas, I’m writing that down. “Hey, we’re going to have a clean up or stick-around time for those who…” I like that. You’ll see a blog about that soon. I like that. Courtesy of Douglas.

Douglas: I love the cocktail-hour notion, too. It's like, I'm just making sure we reserve that time for people. In fact, it was BBC released a report, and the headline was quite hilarious. It was like, “Research Finds That Most Meetings Are a Form of Therapy,” or “Most Meaningless Meetings Are a Form of Therapy.” And the point was, and you hear that and you're like, “Well, that seems kind of crazy,” but it's kind of interesting because it's like people gravitate toward having these meaningless meetings, these meetings that nothing comes out of them because they have this need to have connection. And so if you think about it, if we get really intentional about our connection during meetings and plan them in, then people don't have to plan these extraneous things that then waste time.

Michael: Well done. Well done. And we think that the pandemic has changed a lot of things. Unfortunately, one thing it hasn't changed is poor meetings. In fact, they've gotten poorer in the sense that with this virtual thing that people actually think that, well, because it's a virtual meeting, it takes less preparation or because it's—and we are finding, just as in our training work, we've converted virtual sessions where maybe 5 percent, 4 percent of our business prior to the pandemic, now it’s 95 percent. And our facilitators are finding it’s way more work, whether it’s a virtual meeting or virtual training, way more work to prepare for it. Way more.

And the key is, we call it the virtual details, that where before you would have, okay, let's say we have a process-improvement session. And so we're going to start with (a) introduction; then section (b) we're going to talk about how does that process work today? Let's say we're trying to fix the hiring process in the company; (c) we're going to talk about the problems and causes; (d) we're going to brainstorm potential solutions; (e) we're going to reformat the process; (f) we're going to put together implementation plan; and so on. Well, that's what we'd do if it was face to face. We'd go, okay, (b) here's what I'm going to do with the flip charts. I'm going to set them up. And we know instinctively to do that.

Virtual, whole different world. We say with each of those agenda items, do what you normally would do. But you also have to figure out the virtual details. So (b) you know what, I'm going to do a poll; action (c) I'm going to use the whiteboard; action (d) I'll do annotations; (e) I'm going to use a breakout group with…and then we…

So we teach a course now called the Zoom Plus. And what that is, is everyone is now using Zoom, and you know wow. All those people, Zoom meetings, they're not even using all the basic Zoom stuff. Annotation, whiteboard, breakout groups, and so on. So we show them. And we like to say, “We are going to play with the technique so that you do it. You’ll play with them. Then, we're going to take the camera and put it behind the facilitator so that you can see how the facilitator creates the polls, how the facilitator creates the breakout rooms, and then you're going to do it.” So that’s using the basic stuff. And then, Zoom Plus, the plus part of that is we then show them what our facilitators do. And these are 15 virtual-engagement strategies, things like rotating flip charts. How do you use—how do you have the groups rotate through? Last person standing, dump and clump, and all these other advanced engagement strategies, using them, doing them, and doing them virtually. All cool stuff. So we first tried to get them using the basics, which most people aren't using. And then we're showing them, here’s how you use the advanced strategies that will make your meetings absolutely stand out. And people, as we like to say, you know you've gotten there when you hear people go, wow, that was the best virtual meeting I ever attended. And unfortunately, as you can imagine, Douglas, it's easy to be the best, because most are so poor and boring.

Douglas: The bar is so low. So low.

Michael: It is. Exactly. You’ve had the experience.

Douglas: So. Yeah. And, you know, I think there's so much—early on, folks were asking, “Oh, do we get a discount for virtual?” And I’m like, “Man, I’m thinking about charging a premium,” because it's not only the prep time, but, you know, having an assistant facilitator is so much more critical because someone has to manage the tech.

Michael: Absolutely. And what we're finding is frequently—I would put it in the 20 percent time—the facilitator has an issue. So as an example, one of our rules is for client sessions, client sessions, you never underscore underscore. Use your microphone on the computer. You always call in over the phone. The reason is if something happens to one of the two, you still have the other. So for some reason, you lose Internet connection, you can still talk to them. Or some reason the audio goes out, you can convert to what's happening. So you actually want to have redundant backup.

We often suggest that you have another computer connected. So you have two sessions going, one is the participant computer. So if something happens, you can transfer over quickly to make it seamless. So it's almost like you run out of flip-chart paper. You run out of flip-chart paper, you always have a spare right there. Well, how do you do that virtually?

Douglas: Planning on the redundant systems, having the activity by activity, having what is the virtual equivalent of all of this? Have I taken the time to proof it and make sure it's good? I mean, that is a lot of extra work, and not to mention just the fatigue of these environments.

And, you know, I recently spoke with someone. They were telling me that—I'm not sure where the research came from, so this is all anecdotal—but they were saying that any time we're typically working in a three foot kind of context, it's typically a fight or a mating scenario.

Michael: Wow.

Douglas: Because you don't get three feet in someone's face inside the meeting room. That would be awkward. But now we’re doing that with these computers and is very sometimes mostly charged, political, like, we're talking about some really intense stuff. And we go in, and we try to—one mistake we made early on was, let's have an eight-hour session virtually. And, you know, you can't do that virtually.

Michael: Yeah, it’s much harder.

Douglas: You have to do it much shorter. And so I think there's some training of setting expectations for clients, too—

Michael: Absolutely.

Douglas: —even ones we've worked with in the past.

Michael: Yeah, yeah. And so I'm going to go a step further, because this will be—because you are correct that the virtual sessions, by their nature, the dynamic is very different. And I want to—everyone knows—not everyone knows—many are aware, and it comes out in our polls, when we ask people, what is the biggest challenge in virtual meetings? And we've asked this to thousands of people now through our webinars and so on. It always comes up with the same thing, and it's not even close. It's engagement, keeping people engaged, because people are multitasking, doing other things. And so as facilitators, that's got to be our number one focus. How do we keep people engaged?

And here is something that we ask people to consider. We as a company, we do have, we have what we call the PDI Difference—Practical, Dynamic, Interactive. And the way we do that in face-to-face sessions is we ensure that if we're training people or having a facilitated session, there will be significant engagement every 20 to 30 minutes. Thirty minutes will not go by without significant engagement, and mostly 20 minutes. So somewhere between 20 and 30 minutes. Douglas, when you go virtual, cut that bad boy in half. You’ve got to have significant engagement every 10 to 15 minutes. So if you’re getting people together, if you are going 90 minutes between breaks, do the math. Even if you say, “Well, the beginning, there's obviously engagement. People are going.” And the end of that 90 minutes you have engagement, so that means you've got to have at least four others, at least four other engagements. And if all you know is the classic engagement question-answer, question-answer, man, that meetings will wear people out. That's why it's so important for people to have all these other engagement strategies—dump and clump, last man standing, rotating flip charts, all this other stuff, to help put in people's toolbox.

And so really important for facilitators to recognize that it takes a lot more if it's virtual. And as you said, training our clients that, “Listen, you know, normally I would charge a day of prep for this, but it's virtual. And so therefore,…” Yeah. And making it clear it's extra.

Douglas: Absolutely. Let's talk a little bit about the Secrets of Facilitation.

Michael: Oh, my favorite book. Yes.

Douglas: You have over 60 secrets in that book.

Michael: It is. And really good stuff, I think, personally.

Douglas: Yeah. I'm a fan. I have it on the bookshelf behind me. And, you know, beyond the basics, things like preparing and managing for dysfunction, what do you think the biggest secret that most people don't know? Like, what's the one that you’re just like time and time again does no one just…?

Michael: There are a couple that come to mind, but let me focus on this one. And I'm about to make a statement, Douglas, that when I say it in our training classes—I mentioned we trained over 20,000 people—there are always people who go, “No, that can't be right.” And by the end of the teaching, they go, “Yeah, that's really true.” Here is the statement: there are only three reasons people disagree. Huge secret. There are only three. Every disagreement in the entire freakin’ world, there are only three reasons people disagree. Only three. Now, that's the good news, and that's really good news.

But here's the bad news, and it's really bad news. If you have a level-three disagreement and you try to solve it with level-one techniques, you're going to fail. Level-three disagreements can't be solved with level-one techniques. Likewise, you have a level-one disagreement, try to solve it with level-two techniques, you are going to fail. Can't happen. So we as facilitators have to understand the three reasons people disagree. Have to be able to diagnose which reason it is and have strategies for addressing each one. Now, while that's a teaser, I probably should take a minute to say what are those three reasons people disagree. So let's break it down really quickly.

So you probably have figured out one, two, or three of them. You want to take any guesses, Douglas, or you want me to reveal? Your shot.

Douglas: Why don't you—well, you do the reveal. You do the reveal.

Michael: Okay, I’ll do the reveal. So number one, and it's most disagreements, level-one disagreements, and you actually implied it when you were talking about learning that you were a great facilitator. That is, people disagree because of information. One has information that the other doesn’t have, and they’re arguing, bumping heads, even though once they realize and the information is put on the table, they'll realize they weren’t in disagreement at all. Level-one disagreements always end the same way. “Oh, is that what you meant?” There you go. And as we like to say, when you hear those words, your job is done, because they really weren't in disagreement. In fact, the book Crucial Conversations highlights that, they give it a name, violent agreement. They really are in agreement, but they were arguing. They were just using different words or one had information that the other didn't have. So you saw level-one disagreements, pretty simple. We as facilitators have to understand the difference between advocacy and inquiry. If you ever watched two people arguing, it's like they're fighting back and forth. Statement, statement, statement, statement. Each person is trying to advocate for theirs. If one of them would just step back and just ask the question, “Well, why do you say that? What do you mean by that?” they’ll then would clarify, and you would hear those words, “Oh, is that what you meant?” There you go. Resolved. So we have to move people from advocacy mode to inquiry mode, and you do that yourself by asking questions. In a business environment, there are specific questions we train facilitators to ask, because most level-one disagreements or business are based on either cost, time, who’s involved, or how it’s going to happen. And so we get the questions.

Level-two disagreements are different. If the level-one disagreements are about information—again, we find most disagreements are level one—level-two disagreements are about values or experiences, that they have different values or had had different experiences that prefer one alternative over the other. They understand each other perfectly. They just value different things. Well, you can solve a value disagreement simply by identifying and isolating the key values. What are the key values that each person has? And then creating solutions, brainstorming solutions, that combine those values. It's not a compromise activity. It is a creativity activity, where, as we teach it, you can come up with some pretty novel solutions once you isolate those key values. It just works. In fact, we get more letters about that technique than any others because it really does work when you understand what you're looking to do.

Level-three disagreement is different. It's not about information. It's not about values or experiences. It's about personality, past history with one another, or some outside factor that has nothing to do with the disagreement. It's not about the disagreement. They basically don't like each other. Can you solve a level-one disagreement by asking questions about the issue? No, because it's not about the issue. Can you solve a level-three disagreement by asking about the values? It’s not—yeah, you solve level-three disagreements differently. Take it to a higher source. You're not going to solve it at this level. You've got to take it up the chain. And so we talk about strategies for doing that.

But most facilitators, that secret of understanding there are only three reasons people disagree, and so when you're listening to a disagreement, we train people to say, “Hey, next time you're listening to a disagreement, just say under your breath, ‘level two. Yeah, level one. Yeah, level three,’ so that you can get used to diagnosing what type of disagreement it is so that you keep that mindset of, okay, here's the technique I want to use to adjust this disagreement. So it's cool stuff and really one of those fun secrets out of the 60.

Douglas: Yeah. I love frameworks like that, that can—are very actionable and we can kind of lean on them in the moment pretty easily.

Michael: Well, you know, I find that the best facilitators are process oriented, Douglas. And I'm just going to give your listeners a heads up. If you were to see the prep work that Douglas had sent out to my office around the thinking that they've already done around how to have a great podcast, it was like, oh, my gosh, this is like a cookbook. All I have to do is this part. They're doing all these other pieces. And some great process thinking, very much appreciate it, because it makes it easy. In the same way, if you can give facilitators a process to use that's been tested, proven, that they can modify and make theirs, it makes all the difference. And that's one of the things I think we're good at: giving people processes.

Douglas: Absolutely. If you could change one thing about meetings in general, what would it be?

Michael: Oh, my gosh. Wow. You're asking big questions here. If I could change one thing about meetings. Yeah, I guess—yeah, that would have to be it. Douglas, the biggest challenge I find, and we find over and over again with meetings that other people are leading, is preparation. So few people do the preparation necessary. And quite frankly, it's not a lot of work if, as you would say, there's a framework for it.

And so I'll just give your listeners a framework. We call it the six Ps. And it doesn't matter whether you are running a meeting for yourself or running a meeting for someone else, ask the six Ps, because once you know the six Ps, you execute on that and you can be really prepared. One, and you know it all starts with purpose.

Douglas: Yes. Thank you.

Michael: Why are we having this meeting?

Douglas: Yes.

Michael: Why are we having this meeting? What's the real purpose of the meeting? And then we say, “Okay, now that we're clear…” And so I'll give an example just to make it real for your listeners. Someone may come to us. “Michael, Michael, I’d love to have a team-building session for my team.” First P, purpose. “Really? Help me understand what's really the purpose of the team-building session?” “Well, I need my team working together better because, you know, we kind of snipe at each other sometimes. So I really want us to have a strong, bonding experience so that we can walk out of that room, moving together, working together, feeling better about each other.” “That's helpful.”

Second P, product. “So what is the product you want to come out of that meeting?” “Michael, what do you mean?” “Well, think about it this way, in terms of the three Hs. When this meeting’s over, what do you want your team to have in their hands that they can see?” “Well, Michael, it’d be great if we had a team vision.” “Cool. Anything else?” “Well, maybe some team norms.” “Okay. Anything else?” “Well, maybe if we could walk away with what's going to happen if someone violates the norm, so we have that kind of…” “Anything else?” “No, I think that's pretty good.” “All right. Well, thank you. Well, let me ask you this. What do you want them to have in their head when the session is over?” “Michael, what do you mean?” “Well, what do you want them to know that they didn't know before the meeting started?” “Well, maybe I want them to know, hey, what makes a team great? What are the qualities of a great team and know how we assess against that, and what are the things we need to work on to be a great team?” “Cool, cool, great. So what do you want them to have in their hearts when the session is over?” “Michael, you getting soft on me?” “No, no, no. What do you want them to believe that maybe they didn't believe before this session was held?” “Well, I want them to believe that if we do these things, we’ll be a great team. I want them to feel committed to making it happen.”

“There you go. Great. Well, so you’ve talked about purpose and product. Let me ask you this. Tell me about the people who are going to be in the room. Who needs to be in the room that we create these products and achieve this purpose?” “Well, I want my whole team there.” “Anyone else?” “Well, you know, do you think, Michael, my E.A., should be there?” “Well, let me ask you, do you think your E.A. is part of the team, work with the team? Is your E.A. part of getting things to happen?” “So, yeah, that's great.” “Anyone else? There we go.”

“All right. Well, we talked about purpose, product, participants. Let me ask you this. What are the probable issues that we need to address? What are the things that we absolutely need to talk about if these participants are going to create these products to achieve this purpose?” “Yeah. We've had a couple of things happen over the last few months that we really need to talk about.” “Well, let's talk about what those are. Anything else we need to talk about? Great.”

“Well, now let's talk about process. What's the process you're thinking we might want to take the team through so that we address these issues so the participants create the product and the purpose? Great.”

And notice, by the way, Douglas, process is fifth. Many people think, “I want to hold a meeting. What's the agenda?” Wrong answer. There’re four questions you have to answer first—purpose, product, participants, probable issues—before you get to process. Never start with agenda.

And then the six P is place, meaning—and it's all the stuff around the place. And in these days, the place is virtual. So let's talk about all the things around the virtual platform that needs to be.

So we say when you have those six questions answered, the six Ps of preparation, you're now ready to do the work to get well prepared for your session. So we think that's a great way to address and make meetings so much better. Just most people don't do the work. They don't think about the six Ps.

Douglas: Yeah, you know, there’re so many meeting—you talked about the lack of preparation, and it’s like—

Michael: Yeah.

Douglas: And so there's this weird spectrum, because on one end, no one's doing anything. So they're just kind of walking in blind, and they just threw something on your calendar called a meeting, and they're not even—so there's a lexicon and taxonomy problem.

Michael: Yes.

Douglas: And so that's a whole other thing we could get into. But then on the other hand, when they do the planning, their agenda’s just a list of topics—

Michael: Yes.

Douglas: —and it’s not thoughtful, it’s not informed by—

Michael: Absolutely.

Douglas: —the purpose. We were just talking earlier today about the problem with icebreakers and warmups, in that—

Michael: Oh, my gosh, yes.

Douglas: —people just throw them on the agenda, without thinking about the purpose and why they’re there. And I love this. I have this saying that if you can’t ask your participants after doing something like that, “Why did we just do that?” and have it erupt into a pithy conversation, you need to ask yourself, “Why did we just do that?”

Michael: Oh, well said, Douglas. Well said. In fact, our company, in general, when it comes to icebreakers, we hate them because most icebreakers are just stuff. And we say, “It's good to break the ice,” but you want to break the ice with an activity that furthers the purpose and product of the session. If you say, “Hey, you know what, we’d like to spend a few minutes talking about your favorite vacation spot,” that's a great icebreaker if the purpose of our session is to choose a vacation spot. If it's not, leave that icebreaker at home. “Hey, you know what, we'd like to hear about your most embarrassing moment.” That is a great icebreaker if this session is about dealing with embarrassing moments. If it's not, leave that icebreaker at home. Whatever you use as an icebreaker, it should further the session result, not be something, as you said, that’s unpurposeful and inserted into the meeting.

Facilitators have a bad rap of, “Hey, we help people hold hands and sing Kumbaya.” Read that from an executive standpoint, “We're great at wasting people's time.” That's how executives view the classic Kumbaya facilitators. Our job is to make sure every moment we spend with executives is productive. It's used to get to a result that they are willing to invest in. If they're not willing to invest, we have just added non-value activity. So non-value added activity is not helpful in a facilitated session.

Douglas: Well said, my friend.

So I would love to leave our listeners with one last piece of advice. And so if you could ensure every facilitator in the world had one skill, what would it be?

Michael: That's easy. That's really easy. When you think about facilitators, when we walk into a room, our most important job is to pull out the most important information that's going to help this group get where they're going. That's our responsibility. To do that, we don't have to be good at asking questions. We have to be great at asking questions. We have to be really excellent at using questions to pull out the information that's going to help the group.

As I said in one of my early, early ad set we put together, the ad said, “Hidden inside of your company are answers to some of the most important issues facing your organization. Your people have the answers. We bring the questions.” And so we teach something called the secret of the starting question. If you’ve ever facilitated a session and you asked this really great question and got complete and utter silence, if that’s ever happened to you, what we teach is, more times than not, the reason you got silence is that you asked what we call the “type A” question instead of a “type B” question. Type A questions lead people to silence. Type B questions get people putting up their hands, jumping up and down, trying to get you to respond to them. Or you're old enough to remember Welcome Back, Kotter. We called it the Horshack effect. “Ooh, ooh, ooh, Mr. Kotter. Mr. Kotter, call on me.” And that's what we want to get. And so, how do you get that? Well, it’s all in how you ask the question. And we call it the secret of the starting question.

Now, just to give an example. Let’s go back to my hiring process. If we're in a room and we got a bunch of people, we're trying to figure out how the hiring process works today, that's one of the first agenda items. As a facilitator, we go, “Okay, great. We're all together. We're ready to get to that first agenda item. Let's get started. How does the hiring process work today?” Crickets. “Come on, folks. You know how it works. How does it work today? What are the steps?” Crickets. “Come on, guys. You know the…” There you go.

Instead, you would ask what we call a type B question, and it sounds like this. “You know, we're ready to get started with documenting the current hiring process. I'd love for you to think about the last time you hired someone. Think about all the steps you had to go through, all the people you had to talk with, the forms or whatever you had to fill out to get that person on board. What are the steps in the current hiring process?” We call that a type B question. How is it formed? They're three steps. It's pretty easy. It's pretty simple, just not easy.

Its first step is you start with an image-building phrase. “Think about the last time…,” or “If you were about to...” or “Imagine…” It doesn’t start with “What…” Here comes a type B question. You're going very direct. Or “Why…” or “How…” or so on. It starts with an image-building phrase because you're trying to create an image, because when people can see their answers, they answer right away. Then, you expand the image with at least two other phrases. Then, you ask the direct question. “Think about the last time you hired someone. Think about all the steps you had to go through, all the people you had to talk with,” and so on.

Because when people can see their answers, they raise their hand. When people can’t see their answers, if you ask, “What are the steps in the current hiring process?” they're going to go, “Hm, let me think.” What are they doing? They're trying to imagine their answers. Why? Because you didn’t ask a question that helped them do it. Facilitation means to make easy. We've got to get them visualizing their answers.

So that's just one of the things. We teach nine different questioning techniques. And if we could do that for every facilitator in the world—in fact, your audience have probably heard of TED Talks. If they were to go to the TED site and type in “secret of the starting question,” they would see me giving a TEDx Talk to the International Association of Facilitators on the secret of the starting question.

Douglas: I love it. So good.

It's funny, once you were starting to talk about the secret to—or the one thing that facilitators should know, and you started talking about questions, I was going to ask you, what is one of your favorite questions? But then, before I even had the opportunity, you gave us a framework for asking questions. So I'm still going to throw this at you for extra credit. Is there a question…? In fact, you threw out one of my favorites already, and that is, what did you mean by that? I think that's such a disarming question, especially if someone says something that is maybe judgmental or offensive in some way, and maybe there was no intention behind it, and we want to just give them an opportunity to unravel that or explain it.

Michael: And it helps them do it. And that’s a great one. And I think one of the things you find is why questions and how questions are often challenging for people. And so you want to be careful, as we say, you want to focus on the tone. And probably my favorite, it's simple, is, “Help me understand, why is that important? Help me understand, why is it important?” because your tone could be, “So why is that important?” That’s a wrong tone. No, thank you. Yeah. So tone as you ask that question, “Why is that important?” is one of my favorite questions. There have to be questions because it gets to, oh, new understanding, because I'm thinking, perhaps if you could see my thought bubble, “What does that have to do with anything we're talking about?” And so sort of just, “Hey, help me understand, why is that important?”

Douglas: Also, “Help me understand,” I'm taking the blame for not understanding it, which is great. It reminds me, too—I've been listening to a lot of masterclass. And Chris Voss has a really great masterclass, and he's a master negotiator—

Michael: Oh, excellent.

Douglas: —and author of that book, Never Split the Difference. And one of his points around not using why, he never asks any why questions when he's negotiating with a hostage. And it's because, remember when you were a little kid and something you broke, something by accident, and your parents were like, “Why did you do that?” So it's just like, it brings you back to those moments. So we don't want to psychologically hijack anyone when we're asking these questions that we don't really have much intent behind.

Michael: There you go. Really important stuff. Questions are a key for facilitators. Really getting down a question framework for yourself, really good stuff.

Douglas: Absolutely. And I encourage people to check out the type B questions and all the other great stuff, the six Ps, et cetera. It's really awesome stuff.

And so if they were going to dig deeper into this, how can they find you? How can they unravel the secrets more deeply?

Michael: Well, please, our website, www.leadstrat—that’s short for Leadership Strategies—leadstrat.com, and any of the resource pages. You can also, in our store, we have all the books—The Secrets of Facilitation is probably the one we’ve talked about the most, as well as Click: The Virtual Meetings Book. Those two are ones that in this pandemic people will find most helpful. And again, do check out—

Oh, our gift to the industry, we recognize that as part of our—we’re the largest facilitation company in the country, that what we do, we typically do three or four free webinars a month. Most recently, we've been doing them on the virtual side of things, running effective virtual meetings, making Zoom hum, those kinds of things, just, really, free webinars. Of course, we do it because we know that once people get a taste of what we do, they may want to learn more. We’ve been doing them for over a decade now, these webinars. But please check them out. And you know what most webinars, Douglas, are thinly veiled sales pitches. For us, we go, “Okay. Please give us 60 minutes. You're going to get 55 minutes of real content, stuff you can use tomorrow. Then, the last five minutes we’ll talk about for those who want to learn more.” So really hardcore, hit-it content. And so it's really great. They get 400 or 500 people on every webinar, and so it's really fun stuff.

Douglas: Excellent. Well, I can't wait to check one out. And, you know, it's been a pleasure to have you on the show today.

Michael: Oh, likewise, being with you. It’s just been a fun conversation.

Douglas: Absolutely. Well, thanks again, and we’ll be talking to you soon.

Michael: All right. You take care.

Outro: Thanks for joining me for another episode of Control the Room. Don't forget to subscribe to receive updates when new episodes are released. If you want more, head over to our blog, where I post weekly articles and resources about working better together

"What I found is that the workshop format is perfect for a creative team."

-Alison Coward

Today my guest is Alison Coward, founder of Bracket, a consulting agency that helps teams in the creative and digital industries to work better together. Alison helps organizations build highly collaborative cultures and high-performing teams. She is a strategist, workshop facilitator, coach, trainer, keynote speaker, and author of "A Pocket Guide to Effective Workshops."

She works across corporates, start-ups, agencies, and public institutions, and her client list includes Google, D&AD, Barclaycard, Wellcome, and Channel 4. With over 15 years of experience of working in, leading, and facilitating creative teams, Alison is passionate about finding the balance between team creativity, productivity, and collaboration.

While researching how creative industries could flourish, Alison came across the idea of collaboration, which she focuses on today. The first iteration of Bracket was a virtual agency that brought freelancers together into teams to deliver collaborative projects for clients.

"As a facilitator, you're not there to contribute content, and you're not there to tell people what to do, you're there to create a space where all of your ideas can come to the forefront," Alison told me. She further dives into the role of a facilitator, explaining that your role is objective–you need to stay focused on what you need to do to get people communicating. It's also important to consider what is necessary for your team to get to know each other, and to be able to contribute ideas and feel at ease to speak up.

We also talk about how to make space for constructive conflict, why there is power in the introduction, and how your team can define who they are as an objective. Listen in to find out how to understand the context of what you're working in, how you can create the environment to do your best work as a team, and why shared empathy across a team is so important.

[00:57] How Alison became a leader in building high-performing teams.

[02:45] Alison's workshops: teaching others how to create teams that work together.

[04:48] Matching skills to brief and character in a team.

[06:54] Assembling successful teams from people who don't know each other.

[08:09] Alison's go-to strategies for getting members of a team on the same page.

[11:30] How your team can define who they are as an objective.

[14:33] Using the empathy map to dig deeper with the people you work with on your team.

[16:00] Emotional baggage tied up in teams and how you can bring that into work.

[19:10] Turning off the negative and looking at the positive to see the beauty we want to pursue.

[23:46] The value of having differing perspectives in a team environment.

[26:52] Developing behaviors and making them habits.

[30:19] To increase your chances of success you have to be intentional about what you're doing in a team environment.

[33:55] Managers are there to clear the path and make work easy.

[36:39] Alison's advice in how to gain facilitation in a meeting room.

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Alison works across corporates, start-ups, agencies, and public institutions, and her client list includes Google, D&AD, Barclaycard, Wellcome, and Channel 4. With over 15 years of experience of working in, leading, and facilitating creative teams, Alison is passionate about finding the balance between team creativity, productivity, and collaboration.

Voltage Control is a facilitation agency that helps teams work better together with custom-designed meetings and workshops, both in-person and virtual. Our master facilitators offer trusted guidance and custom coaching to companies who want to transform ineffective meetings, reignite stalled projects, and cut through assumptions. Based in Austin, Voltage Control designs and leads public and private workshops that range from small meetings to large conference-style gatherings.

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Intro: Welcome to the Control the Room Podcast, a series devoted to the exploration of meeting culture and uncovering cures for the common meeting. Some meetings have tight control, and others are loose. To control the room means achieving outcomes while striking a balance between imposing and removing structure, asserting and distributing power, leaning in and leaning out, all in the service of having a truly magical meeting.

Douglas: Today I'm with Alison Coward, founder of Bracket, where she helps organizations build highly collaborative cultures and highly performing teams.

Welcome to the show, Alison.

Alison: Thanks, Douglas.

Douglas: So, Alison, tell us a little bit about your journey. How did you get started in this work?

Alison: It is a bit of a journey, actually. So, I didn't fall into workshop facilitation because I intended to. Actually, the angle that I came with it was because I was so passionate about collaboration.

And I've actually done an M.A., which was related to my previous career in the creative industries, did lots of research about how the creative industries could flourish, and came across this idea of collaboration. And, actually, the first iteration of Bracket, when I set out 10 years ago, was a virtual agency that brought freelancers together into teams and to deliver collaborative projects for clients. And at the start of each of those projects, because each of these freelancers never worked together before, it made sense and it was really logical for me to get everyone together to meet each other, but, then, also to have, I guess, a brainstorming session where we talk about what we were going to do for the client and how we were going to work together.

And because I wasn't a creative producer myself, I was the person that kind of convenes every one. I was the facilitator, but I didn't know I was doing that at the time. And actually, that's what people picked up on. They were asking me to facilitate their workshops. So rather than me bringing together teams, they were saying, "Can you come in and work with our teams to do what you're doing with those teams? because we need that as well."

It just kind of went from there, really. I kind of realized what workshop facilitation was, started to do more of that. And I wrote a book, A Pocket Guide to Effective Workshops.

And then over the last couple of years, I've kind of brought it back full circle—I'd say, over the last kind of three to four years—brought it back full circle to the original core of the idea, which was around collaboration. So whereas the workshops that I ran previously were—they were innovation workshops, maybe brainstorming workshops, or strategy sessions; now a lot of the workshops I facilitate are very much about how teams can gel and form and create new ways of working together.

Douglas: Yeah. I wrote the word forming down, as you mentioned, gel and form, form and gel and work together, that makes me even more curious because I've always found that model of forming, norming, storming to be kind of interesting, like this maturity curve that a team goes on. And so what did you find when you were assembling these kind of creative groups and facilitating them, as far as patterns and, I don't know, maybe norms, that work that you could lean on in this forming stage or when you're starting to get them to gel?

Alison: That's a really brilliant question because, first of all, what I found was the workshop format was actually perfect for a creative team, and I don't think I'd really made that connection before. The thing is, is when you're facilitating a workshop as a facilitator, you're not there to contribute content, and you're not there to tell people what to do. You're there to create a space where all of the ideas can come to the forefront. And I think I instinctively knew that, but I hadn't realized it so clearly because I wasn't a creative producer. It was my job for everybody to come together and create the best platform for this team to do their best work as people that had never met before but people that were experts in everything that they did. So I think that was the first thing was that, as a facilitator, your role is very objective, and you've got a specific role, which is about process of what do you need to do to get these people communicating, getting to know each other, being able to contribute ideas and speak up, and also make the space for that constructive conflict that is so important in innovation as well.

So I say that's one of the things, particularly in terms of the form, is such, some stuff that came before that in terms of kind of understanding the brief and then matching skills to the brief and then kind of having a little bit of a background knowledge about the characters and kind of matching it that way. But, really, the work started in the room, or just before the room, when I would sort of plan that workshop out and figure out, I need to get these people working in the best way possible. How can I make that happen?

Douglas: Yeah, it's interesting. I think that you mentioned it's important to understand the brief, and I feel like that's where so many people focus. It's like making sure we're aligning on what exactly needs to be done versus the best way for us to come together and work together, understand each other, and do our best work.

Alison: 100 percent. I mean, that's the work that needs to be done before you even really start talking about the ideas, or maybe done in tandem. But you're right that the emphasis is on the content and not on the how. It's one of my favorite phrases, which is how you work together has more of an impact on the success of a team than what they're working on and even who's in the team. And I use lots of research to back that up. But it's so important. And I think the emphasis for me was that, one, these people were specialists. I'd brought them into the room for a specific reason, and they were cross-disciplinary as well, multidisciplinary teams. Secondly, they'd never met before, and they were going to be working on a high-value client project together. So it's not that there wasn't room for mistakes, but we had to kind of get together and start working together very quickly. We didn't really have the luxury of years of getting to know each other. We had to kind of get together, know each other, and start working together all in the same day. So it was very much emphasis on the kind of the forming part.

Douglas: Yeah, it's interesting. You mentioned this situation where we don't have years to get to know each other. We have to assemble and move pretty quickly. I would hazard a guess that we'll see more of that in the future as the different models emerge for finding work and doing work. To me, the future work is about more kind of open talent.

Alison: Yeah. And temporary teams as well. I mean, I think the challenges that we're facing and the problems that we want to solve and how we want to innovate, we're going to need to bring different skillsets together. And that means that it's going to be teams that are made up of people that have never worked together before, because we're going to need to bring skills together in new ways. It's almost like different jigsaw puzzles or different recipes, if you like. The raw ingredients, but mixing them up in different ways, and you get a different result. So we're going to have to get much more used to working with people that we don't know and, therefore, understanding what it takes to get a team up and running more quickly, which, like you say, it's less to do with the content and more to do with the process of how. We need to get better at having those kinds of conversations.

Douglas: Yeah. To me, the word trust comes to mind. How do we get to that point of trust quickly? And I'm curious of what your go-to strategies or what you found to work to kind of really kick start some of that.

Alison: Yeah. Well, there's a few things. I mean, I always talk about the value of a check in at the start of a meeting and finding a question that everyone can respond to, which not only kind of creates a moment for people to kind of focus and say what we're going to—we're in the room together, and we need to give our attention, but also an opportunity for people to get to know each other.

The book The Checklist Manifesto by Atul Gawande, he did a lot of research in hospitals, and he found that the teams that were going into surgery, the doctors and nurses and anesthetists that introduced themselves at the beginning of the surgery before they started operating were more likely to have a successful surgery because the fact that they spoke up at the beginning and got to know each other, got to know each other's names, meant they were more likely to speak up later on during the surgery if they saw something going wrong.

There's a real power in that kind of pause at the beginning of a session. And I don't mean those introductions where you go around the room. I mean, I think I find those kind of quite daunting, actually, when I'm in a room of people that I don't know and I'm under pressure to introduce myself in a really effective way. But finding an interesting question that you can talk around.

I mean, I think the other thing as well, which goes back to social psychology, is that finding ways that people can find things in common with each other, whether it's two brothers or their parents grew up in the same town or their birthdays are in the same month, even things like that can start to help to build that connection which will then lead to trust. So as a facilitator, again, it's about finding those questions. And I don't really like to call them icebreakers all the time. And I know that there's value in icebreakers, but I feel that this is really part of the work. It's not just something that's breaking the ice. It's something that's really helping people to get together and to focus on the work. And there's so much out there. There's so many questions that we can pick up on. People have created kits for questions that you can ask at the start of a meeting. So they can ware short on those kinds of questions, but I think the fact is we need to design something at the beginning to open up those kinds of conversations.

Douglas: I think you're so spot on. You know, if we can tie it to our purpose and have it align, and there's a broader intent or reason why we're doing that work, then icebreakers, whatever you want to call it, they have value. But if we're just going to throw them in because, "Oh, we always do this," then we're just kind of going through the motions.

I really would love to talk a little bit about—I was thinking about those—I had written down the word team charter. And I was thinking, also, about Patrick Lencioni's organizational health is so important versus operational excellence. And so I'm curious to just hear your thoughts on this notion of the team really kind of coming together and kind of defining who they are as an objective.

Alison: Absolutely love it. Yeah. It's one of the key principles that I have is that in order for a team to identify how they're going to work, how everyone's going to do their best work, they have to sit down and really explore, first of all, who's on the team and what each individual is bringing to the team, as well as each of those individuals, how they work and how they do their best work. They also need to consider, therefore, what everybody looks like, what that looks like as a team, when you bring all of those people together, because that's going to be unique. Because if we're working in these temporary teams and each team is going to be made up of different types of people, which means each team is going to be different as well, then you need to think about what is it that you're actually working on—some projects are more fast paced than others. Some are more pressurized than others, that require more creativity and innovation than others—but really understands what it is that you need to do together. And then, also, understand the context that you're working within as well and whether that's going to influence the way that you work together. And then once you've got all of that, once you've kind of discussed that as a team and understood it, that's when you're in the position to really start designing, okay, so this is a situation that we're in. How are we going to do our best work? How can we create the environment for us also individually, do our best work within the way that we can, acknowledging that we're going to need to make some compromises, and, therefore, what does that mean as a team for us doing our best work as well?

So I actually love the idea of a team charter and particularly the idea of getting to know everybody's working styles so that there's that shared empathy across the team as well.

Douglas: Yeah. It reminds me of this technique where managers will write a manual on how to understand them, and give it to their employees or their direct reports. And I think that being able to do that as a team and get to a high-level understanding can be really powerful.

There is a technique I always loved to use as a manager if I had two employees that were struggling. Most of the time, it came down to a lack of understanding about role and perspective and capability, skillset. Unless there was something pathological going on, I would just ask them to go to coffee and tell them, "You can't talk about work. I don't want you to talk about your tasks or what's going on. I just want you to take turns telling each other what the other person does. Describe the other person's role, in your words, and just listen to each other. And once you're done sharing back and forth, then discuss that." It's, like, 99 times out of 100, they come back, and they're like, "Oh. You know, I had no idea."

Alison: Yeah. I love that. I love that.

The other tool that I've used as well—and these are particularly across teams, actually, that have conflict, like maybe a marketing or a sales team, or I've done it with a research department in a university that had relationship with the academics they work with—I use the empathy map, which is, like, a really great way to kind of sit down, use the empathy map usually with your potential customers or clients if you're service, but using the empathy map with people that you work with. Again, really trying to dig in deep and to really see things from their point of view. Again, you can kind of help to smooth some of those conflicts over.

Douglas: Yeah, that's great. It reminded me of how awesome it is when organizations and consultants are using design-thinking tools to point them inward and start thinking employee experience versus customer experience.

Alison: That was—you're talking about all the stuff I love talking about and writing about. I mean, I literally just wrote a post about design thinking and using design thinking as a way to build resilient teams. And again, one of the main things that I talk about a lot is that we've got all of these innovation tools which help us to create amazing products and services and innovate in those areas. If we turn them inwards, into our team, then actually we can innovate the way that we work as well. Most teams, if you think about UX or products, they're used to using these tools. They're kind of second nature to them. But often, they haven't thought about just flipping them internally and using them to really create new ways of working together, and they can be really powerful when used in that way.

Douglas: Absolutely. One of my favorites—we were talking about starting meetings earlier—one of my favorites is starting with hopes and fears, because you talk about feeling strongly about something, this is your career. You spend more time with these people than you sometimes do with family because, frankly, there's eight hours of your waking day is at the office, or at home, logged into a virtual session. And so there's going to be a lot of emotional baggage tied up in teams and things. And so just giving people space to express those things can be really powerful.

Alison: 100 percent. And, you know, I think that's the key, right? We spend so much of our time at work. We often—I think people don't have the awareness or feel that they have the permission to make work better. And, you know, one of the thoughts is that if you make it work better—because we spend so much time at work and particularly in the area that we work in, a lot of our work is done with teams—if we spend the time making teamwork better, it will change the experience that we have of work. And because we spend so much time at work, it's kind of going to change the experience that we have over all of our lives because if we're spending so much time at work and if we don't like our jobs, then, actually, that has an impact on how we feel generally. If we love our work, we feel that we're able to go and express ourselves, and we have the opportunity to thrive, do our best work, have amazing conversations with our colleagues, which push us and challenge us and enable us to grow. And that's going to have a knock on effects in our lives outside of work as well. And that's one of the things that really gets me going.

I actually did a bit of an interview earlier, and one of the questions was, what's your biggest delusion? And my delusion is, is that one day everybody goes to work or looks forward to going to work and has brilliant days every single day. I don't know. That's kind of like a utopia. But that is, you know, that's my biggest delusion.

Douglas: You know, I think that's really beautiful. And I was just coaching someone recently on leadership, and they had, not that long ago, been promoted. They're a software developer, and they're kind of on the track to become V.P. of engineering at their startup. And the thing that I noticed, this trend, was they were from a background of just big company, corporate gigs, where the hobby or the pastime is to sit back and just complain about all the things that are wrong. All the things about work and all the things the boss did and someone else did and blah, blah, blah. And that stuff's addictive. That mindset, that behavior, that pastime is super addictive. And I'm a big fan of positive deviance as a workshop technique, and it can be a way of life, too, if we just reflect on what's working rather than what's not working. But as, especially as engineers, it can be really difficult or really easy, I would say, just to fall into that trap. And I'm trained and lifelong engineer, a software developer, and we've spent our entire career building our abilities to figure out what could go wrong and to plan against it, and find the bugs and fix them. And we have to be able to turn that off and look at the positive sometime, because if we're always looking at what won't work, then we'll never see the beauty that we might be able to pursue.

Alison: Mm, yeah. And I even like what you said about looking at finding the bugs and fixing it. You can even kind of put a positive spin on that. If we look at that as work, what's not working in work, and kind of think what we want to problem solve and the things that aren't working to make it better, that's the kind of really good way of looking at is, is also a positive spin. But I do agree that it feels quite addictive, and it almost feels like there's a kind of element of that's what work's meant to be. We're not meant to enjoy it. We're meant to moan about work. We're meant to moan about our colleagues.

But what if we weren't? What if work was meant to be this place where you go to where you are fulfilled? It enables you to sort of, not in a, I guess, in a controlled way, but enables you to be a better human. It enables you to kind of search for what it is that you want to do and kind of grow and develop and explore and become a better communicator. So therefore, you can contribute in better ways to your family, to your community, to society.

I'd love for companies to see themselves as having that role. Can you imagine if companies, alongside, see companies have to make a profit and they have to survive, otherwise they can't employ people. But when they do kind of get to that stage, it's like, what if we saw ourselves as a place where people come to thrive, because we see the impact that that's going to have on society?

Douglas: That's beautiful. I love it.

I'm going to switch gears a little bit and come back—it's something I was thinking about when we were talking about the forming and just understanding each other and some of the things that are required to build trust. And it struck me—and this is something that we've been doing in some of our workshops. I've found great results with it, and I'm sure it's found your way into your work—where usually when people get along or there's disagreements or they're disgruntled by someone, it's because they have a weakness of their teammates. It's the behavior that their teammate or someone on the team's exhibiting is hurtful or doesn't connect in some way, and it upset someone. And usually, I've found that those behaviors are the exact opposite manifestation of a strength.

So, for instance, let's take one example, which is I'm an achiever, so I get a lot of stuff done. So then my expectations on others can be quite high, unless I check myself and say, "Not everyone is going to be functioning on this achiever level as me. And even when I keep taking them into account, it can potentially still come off as overwhelming to others. And it's one thing for me to carry that burden and do my best to take care of others, but if we talk about all of this as a team, now everyone else can understand that 'Oh, I don't need to interpret this as an attack on me. That's just Douglas being an achiever. And that's great for the team.'"

Alison: Yeah, absolutely.

Douglas: Yeah.

Alison: Of course, I've a bit of a love-hate relationship with personality tests. Well, I'm kind of addicted to them because I love doing them for myself, but then I know that they have their limits in the past—

Douglas: Yes.

Alison: But I think that they're a good entry point into self-awareness. And what happens—I remember when I did my first one, which, I think, was Myers Briggs years ago, and it was kind of mind-blowing for me because we need, sometimes, need these kind of assessments. How did they get that so right? But what it did for me was, as well as kind of creating that self-awareness, with Myers Briggs, for example, you've got those 15 other personality types. And you're like, "Oh, right. The reason that person and I clash all the time is that they were on the opposite end of the scale. So they just see things in a different perspective from me."

So that, actually, that's the most powerful outcome of the personality test, I think, second to the initial self-awareness is the awareness that other people see things and work in different ways. And the more that you can understand that, the more that you can benefit from collaboration, because in a collaborative team, you don't want people that all work in the same way. And that's the whole point of collaborating, that you get different perspectives. But the nature of having those different perspectives may cause conflict if people haven't taken the time to get to know each other and understand how people see things and, therefore, how valuable that is to have those different perspectives.

It also comes back to the debate around diversity at the moment, which is the value not only from a moral standpoint, that people, the team should be diverse because we are globally diverse, but at the same time, the opportunities that come from inviting or including people into a conversation that have different perspectives and being able to hold those types of conversations. And we've seen that it's pretty challenging, but it's something that we have to learn to do, not only because we want to make the world better, but also it just makes better workplaces.

Douglas: So, when we talk about working together and how we're going to do that, we've spoken a lot about the soft skills and the understanding around coming together and understanding how we're going to work together. I think there's also some very, I would say, more hard skills that go into how we're going to work together. Even deciding, are we going to use Google Docs and do some real-time collaboration, or what tools are we going to use? When are we going to meet? When does it make sense to have certain types of meetings? And I think that that causes a lot of strain on teams when they don't have those conversations and they take it for granted or they let things evolve organically versus having some upfront conversations around, what's the best way for us to share these things, and what is our iteration cadence, etc.?

Alison: Mm. So, here's the thing, right, is that this can be seen as a design process. You can create and design the way that you work together as a team. And, you know, all those kind of factors I mentioned before—the individuals on the team, the project that you're working on, the context that you're working with it—what do you need to design to enable you to reach the outcomes that you set for yourself? And that might be looking specifically at how you meet, when you meet, what types of meetings you're going to have, what tools you're going to use, and how you're going—but not even just what tools you're going to use, but how you're going to use those tools. We're going to use Slack for this, and we're going to use Google Docs for this.

The other thing is what kinds of mechanisms and, perhaps, rituals can you put in place to foster that communication and the connection and trust—we've seen this a lot with remote teams. We've seen it a lot in remote teams in the fact that, you know, people aren't in the office as much, and they've really been missing that connection. And it's not that you can necessarily replicate those water-cooler moments in the office, but there is something that you can create to try to ensure that you're checking in with your colleagues, for example, or you are having those kind of social chats, and being really intentional about how you work together. And then thinking, "This is all a behavior-change piece." So not only do we want to collaborate better, and, therefore, that means we need to have this meeting then and that meeting then, but actually really be specific about how and when you're going to start to develop these behaviors or make them habits.

Douglas: Mm. I love this notion of developing behaviors and making them habits.

Alison: Mm. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is it. You know, if we want to work differently, then we're going to be changing the way that we work, and, actually, we know that as humans, we find change quite difficult to do off of our own backs. However, when change is done to us, like we've seen in the recent situation, we've had to change quite quickly, when we're trying to be proactive about change, then we have to be a lot more, I guess, disciplined with ourselves about how it's going to take place. So it's not just the conversations with your team of saying, "We want to be a good collaborative team." It's saying, "Well, what does collaboration look like to us, and what do we mean by collaboration? And on a practical level, what actions do we take in order to make that happen? And then, when are we going to do those actions? And what does it look like? How do we know that it's working?" and making sure that you're having those kind of regular conversations as a team to review how you're working and what you need to improve or what you need. It's right on.

Douglas: Yeah. Speaking of change, if you could change anything about most meetings, would it be?

Alison: When I say most meetings, I'm talking about the team meetings that are kind of big parts of projects because the "getting to know you" meetings are slightly different than presentation meetings. But I would say that I would love teams to look at those kinds of meetings and approach them as if they were workshops. So that means taking each of those meetings and thinking, "Right, okay, what is the purpose? What is the outcome? What are the things that we need to discuss? And what are the best ways to discuss those different points? And then, how can we make it engaging, and how can we make sure that everybody gets the chance to have a say?" So I think that's one of the things that I would like to see change in meetings is that how can we make some of our meetings more workshop like? because that's what we need. If you want collaborative discussions, that's exactly what a workshop achieves.

Douglas: Yeah. We're going to increase participation that way, for sure.

Alison: Right.

Douglas: I love that. It's like, can we unleash everyone? because I think so many meetings provide too many opportunities for social loafing.

Alison: Mm. And for people to dominate, as well, the conversation. And that's the special role of a facilitator is that they are there to keep an eye on these things and make sure that the conversation is inclusive, kind of draw out the things that aren't being said and the people that aren't speaking, and understand why they're not speaking.

Douglas: Yeah. How have you noticed some of those dynamics change now that we're in the virtual space so much more often?

Alison: Yeah, no less people being intentional about it, then it doesn't change. I think that was one of the big mistakes that happened is that everyone got very excited by having these online, virtual meetings because we had Zoom, and we've got Slack and those kinds of things. But they didn't—if meetings are terrible face to face anyway, then they're not automatically going to be amazing because they're virtual. You've still got to apply the same principles of planning those meetings and making them better.

I think it's the same conversation that we have around collaboration. You know, just by putting great people in the room doesn't mean that they're automatically going to work well together. It can happen. But actually, if you want to increase the chances of success, then you've got to be intentional about it. And it's the same with our online meetings.

So where people were feeling, perhaps, that they weren't able to contribute in online meetings, in fact, it's been accentuated. So where they weren't able to contribute in face-to-face meetings, it's been accentuated in online meetings. And all of the kind of cracks in cultures, in meeting cultures, in team cultures, have just been highlighted and enhanced even more in a situation where we have to work remotely.

And I do believe that a lot of this stuff—I mean, I know I'm biased, but I think what I learned from facilitating workshops was really transformational for me. I said that I started off my career, but I was working with creatives. I was working with freelance creatives. These are people that worked for themselves. They were their own boss, and they were specialists. So I knew, as somebody who didn't have any knowledge about how they did their work and how they got their results, there was just no point in me telling them what to do. I didn't want to tell them what to do. That's the whole point. I got in there because I wanted to kind of draw on their expertise.

Now we're finding ourselves in a situation where the workplace looks a little bit more like that. We are bringing together multidisciplinary teams. People are specialists in their own areas. And the way that we've managed in the past through, or the traditional idea of the manager, i.e. telling people what to do and making decisions, won't work in an environment where we want innovation.

And what I learned from facilitating workshops was transformational because for me a workshop is the exact same feeling and environment that you need to lead a creative team through uncertainty is exactly what a facilitator does. So it's almost like, how do leaders take on some of those principles of facilitation and apply them to how they work with their teams? because that's kind of what we need. We need to make that shift from the tell-and-sell manager to a manager or a leader that is more facilitative and creates the space for people to do their work and enables those conversations.

Douglas: You know, I recently had Lynda Baker on the podcast, and she loves to share this definition of facilitation to be to make ease.

Alison: Yeah.

Douglas: And I'm pretty fascinated by this definition, and especially as it relates to what you were just talking about around, how can leaders improve their teams by adopting these skills and this way of working? And tying back to your point around, can we help teams and employees and workers enjoy their work more and not feel like they're dreading work? And if management is less about like—well, leadership is less about managing and having you under their thumb, and more about, how can I make this easy? that seems like it would bring about more delight.

Alison: Absolutely. Do you know that that—I talk about this all the time. If anyone's heard me speak at events, then you know that I talk about this all the time, but it just made me think about Teresa Amabile's book The Progress Principle, where she identified that the thing that knowledge workers want more than anything or the thing that ignites most joy in people's work is that they've made progress every single day and it, therefore, changes the way that we look at managers, that managers are there to clear the path to make that progress easy, which goes back to Lynda Baker's definition of facilitation.

Douglas: Mm. It also reminds me of—I think Gallup did a study and came up with these twelve questions that were the critical questions that you could ask of employees to kind of rate their satisfaction. They kind of presented a little more negatively in the sense that, like, if they answer no to more than one or two of these questions, then they're probably likely to leave. I always found them to be really powerful questions, the pepperin and one-on-ones and stuff. But I've never used them in workshops, and I just jotted it down because I think it could be interesting to start kind of bringing those in and thinking about, could they be almost design principles? So instead of using them as a reactive measure, we actually use them as a standard to, like, well, how do we design situations that ensure we're all yeses on all these questions?

Alison: Yes. Yeah.

Douglas: One of them was, do you feel that you're doing your best work?

Alison: Mm, yeah, yeah. If you're kind of looking at that from a design point of view, again, it comes back to that self-reflection. It's like, how can you be sure that you're doing your best work, or what do you need to be able to do your best work?

Douglas: Yeah. And are we making sure we're putting people on the right teams? Like, if we're routinely reassembling and looking at projects, who should be on the projects could be highly informed by the fact of, well, where could Susan be doing her best work? and not necessarily what's most convenient for me as a leader or for whatever reasons, we can kind of consider some of these things when we're allocating resources.

Alison: And that's what makes me think that that's what work should be about, because you're going to get not only engaged employees, but if you kind of bring someone in that is able to do their best work on whatever projects that they're doing, then that's going to benefit the company in the long run, obviously, because you've just got all these people that are just doing amazing work wherever you put them.

Douglas: So, I want to wrap up with one question, which is, if you're thinking about a leader who's just starting to hear some of these things, and they're curious about how facilitation could play a role in the future of their organization, or it could even be someone in the trenches that just wants to be a facilitator, what's your biggest advice as far as how to start to gain the benefits of facilitation and start to practice some of this stuff?

Alison: I would say, don't feel that you have to only practice facilitation in a workshop setting. There are skills in facilitation, which is, I guess, what I've been saying throughout our chat is that the skills of things like asking great questions and listening, I mean, they're very aligned to coaching, actually. But actually, if you start with those two, that for a week, every conversation that you have with one of your team, just ask questions and listen and see how that changes and shifts the dynamic. That's a key skill that a facilitator will have to use in sessions anyway, asking questions and listening to those responses. And that's, again, what makes facilitation really powerful because people are being listened to. So I'd say try to extract some of those skills. Definitely look at how you command your meetings to be more facilitated as well. So some of the kind of classic ways of designing workshops and facilitation skills. But I would say, also, look at the opportunities outside of those workshop settings for using facilitation skills where you can apply them.

Douglas: I love that. People can go to all the training they want. And I've talked to countless facilitators who have gotten lots of training and even multiple levels, and are still daunted when they're asked to plan a meeting with the CEO. They're asking for advice of, what do I do? And I think you're right. Practice matters so much, and you don't have to wait for the meeting, the big event, the big workshop, to your point earlier. The best way to improve meetings is to make them feel more facilitated, make them feel more like workshops. So start practicing this stuff on everyday meetings, where the stakes are a little lower. And quite frankly, the stakes are higher than you might realize because doing that's going to unleash so much value, as you previously mentioned.

Alison: Absolutely. Yeah.

Douglas: Excellent.

Well, this has been such a pleasure, chatting with you today. How can the listeners—how can they find you?

Alison: You can find me on LinkedIn, Alison Coward, on LinkedIn. You can also find me at my website, which is bracketcreative.co.uk. And my email address is alison@[email protected] to get in contact with me.

Douglas: Excellent.

Well, it's been a pleasure, chatting with you, Alison. I really enjoyed the conversation.

Alison: Likewise. Thank you so much.

Outro: Thanks for joining me for another episode of Control the Room. Don't forget to subscribe to receive updates when new episodes are released. If you want more, head over to our blog, where I post weekly articles and resources about working better together. Voltagecontrol.com

"What I found is that the workshop format is perfect for a creative team."

-Alison Coward

Today my guest is Alison Coward, founder of Bracket, a consulting agency that helps teams in the creative and digital industries to work better together. Alison helps organizations build highly collaborative cultures and high-performing teams. She is a strategist, workshop facilitator, coach, trainer, keynote speaker, and author of "A Pocket Guide to Effective Workshops."

She works across corporates, start-ups, agencies, and public institutions, and her client list includes Google, D&AD, Barclaycard, Wellcome, and Channel 4. With over 15 years of experience of working in, leading, and facilitating creative teams, Alison is passionate about finding the balance between team creativity, productivity, and collaboration.

While researching how creative industries could flourish, Alison came across the idea of collaboration, which she focuses on today. The first iteration of Bracket was a virtual agency that brought freelancers together into teams to deliver collaborative projects for clients.

"As a facilitator, you're not there to contribute content, and you're not there to tell people what to do, you're there to create a space where all of your ideas can come to the forefront," Alison told me. She further dives into the role of a facilitator, explaining that your role is objective–you need to stay focused on what you need to do to get people communicating. It’s also important to consider what is necessary for your team to get to know each other, and to be able to contribute ideas and feel at ease to speak up.

We also talk about how to make space for constructive conflict, why there is power in the introduction, and how your team can define who they are as an objective. Listen in to find out how to understand the context of what you're working in, how you can create the environment to do your best work as a team, and why shared empathy across a team is so important.

[00:57] How Alison became a leader in building high-performing teams.

[02:45] Alison’s workshops: teaching others how to create teams that work together.

[04:48] Matching skills to brief and character in a team.

[06:54] Assembling successful teams from people who don’t know each other.

[08:09] Alison’s go-to strategies for getting members of a team on the same page.

[11:30] How your team can define who they are as an objective.

[14:33] Using the empathy map to dig deeper with the people you work with on your team.

[16:00] Emotional baggage tied up in teams and how you can bring that into work.

[19:10] Turning off the negative and looking at the positive to see the beauty we want to pursue.

[23:46] The value of having differing perspectives in a team environment.

[26:52] Developing behaviors and making them habits.

[30:19] To increase your chances of success you have to be intentional about what you’re doing in a team environment.

[33:55] Managers are there to clear the path and make work easy.

[36:39] Alison’s advice in how to gain facilitation in a meeting room.

Meeting Solutions Online

Lynda Baker on LinkedIn

Alison works across corporates, start-ups, agencies, and public institutions, and her client list includes Google, D&AD, Barclaycard, Wellcome, and Channel 4. With over 15 years of experience of working in, leading, and facilitating creative teams, Alison is passionate about finding the balance between team creativity, productivity, and collaboration.

Voltage Control is a facilitation agency that helps teams work better together with custom-designed meetings and workshops, both in-person and virtual. Our master facilitators offer trusted guidance and custom coaching to companies who want to transform ineffective meetings, reignite stalled projects, and cut through assumptions. Based in Austin, Voltage Control designs and leads public and private workshops that range from small meetings to large conference-style gatherings. 

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Intro: Welcome to the Control the Room Podcast, a series devoted to the exploration of meeting culture and uncovering cures for the common meeting. Some meetings have tight control, and others are loose. To control the room means achieving outcomes while striking a balance between imposing and removing structure, asserting and distributing power, leaning in and leaning out, all in the service of having a truly magical meeting.

Douglas: Today I’m with Alison Coward, founder of Bracket, where she helps organizations build highly collaborative cultures and highly performing teams.

Welcome to the show, Alison.

Alison: Thanks, Douglas.

Douglas: So, Alison, tell us a little bit about your journey. How did you get started in this work?

Alison: It is a bit of a journey, actually. So, I didn’t fall into workshop facilitation because I intended to. Actually, the angle that I came with it was because I was so passionate about collaboration.

And I've actually done an M.A., which was related to my previous career in the creative industries, did lots of research about how the creative industries could flourish, and came across this idea of collaboration. And, actually, the first iteration of Bracket, when I set out 10 years ago, was a virtual agency that brought freelancers together into teams and to deliver collaborative projects for clients. And at the start of each of those projects, because each of these freelancers never worked together before, it made sense and it was really logical for me to get everyone together to meet each other, but, then, also to have, I guess, a brainstorming session where we talk about what we were going to do for the client and how we were going to work together.

And because I wasn't a creative producer myself, I was the person that kind of convenes every one. I was the facilitator, but I didn't know I was doing that at the time. And actually, that's what people picked up on. They were asking me to facilitate their workshops. So rather than me bringing together teams, they were saying, “Can you come in and work with our teams to do what you're doing with those teams? because we need that as well.”

It just kind of went from there, really. I kind of realized what workshop facilitation was, started to do more of that. And I wrote a book, A Pocket Guide to Effective Workshops.

And then over the last couple of years, I've kind of brought it back full circle—I'd say, over the last kind of three to four years—brought it back full circle to the original core of the idea, which was around collaboration. So whereas the workshops that I ran previously were—they were innovation workshops, maybe brainstorming workshops, or strategy sessions; now a lot of the workshops I facilitate are very much about how teams can gel and form and create new ways of working together.

Douglas: Yeah. I wrote the word forming down, as you mentioned, gel and form, form and gel and work together, that makes me even more curious because I've always found that model of forming, norming, storming to be kind of interesting, like this maturity curve that a team goes on. And so what did you find when you were assembling these kind of creative groups and facilitating them, as far as patterns and, I don’t know, maybe norms, that work that you could lean on in this forming stage or when you're starting to get them to gel?

Alison: That's a really brilliant question because, first of all, what I found was the workshop format was actually perfect for a creative team, and I don't think I'd really made that connection before. The thing is, is when you're facilitating a workshop as a facilitator, you're not there to contribute content, and you're not there to tell people what to do. You’re there to create a space where all of the ideas can come to the forefront. And I think I instinctively knew that, but I hadn't realized it so clearly because I wasn't a creative producer. It was my job for everybody to come together and create the best platform for this team to do their best work as people that had never met before but people that were experts in everything that they did. So I think that was the first thing was that, as a facilitator, your role is very objective, and you've got a specific role, which is about process of what do you need to do to get these people communicating, getting to know each other, being able to contribute ideas and speak up, and also make the space for that constructive conflict that is so important in innovation as well.

So I say that's one of the things, particularly in terms of the form, is such, some stuff that came before that in terms of kind of understanding the brief and then matching skills to the brief and then kind of having a little bit of a background knowledge about the characters and kind of matching it that way. But, really, the work started in the room, or just before the room, when I would sort of plan that workshop out and figure out, I need to get these people working in the best way possible. How can I make that happen?

Douglas: Yeah, it's interesting. I think that you mentioned it's important to understand the brief, and I feel like that's where so many people focus. It’s like making sure we're aligning on what exactly needs to be done versus the best way for us to come together and work together, understand each other, and do our best work.

Alison: 100 percent. I mean, that's the work that needs to be done before you even really start talking about the ideas, or maybe done in tandem. But you're right that the emphasis is on the content and not on the how. It's one of my favorite phrases, which is how you work together has more of an impact on the success of a team than what they're working on and even who's in the team. And I use lots of research to back that up. But it’s so important. And I think the emphasis for me was that, one, these people were specialists. I'd brought them into the room for a specific reason, and they were cross-disciplinary as well, multidisciplinary teams. Secondly, they'd never met before, and they were going to be working on a high-value client project together. So it's not that there wasn't room for mistakes, but we had to kind of get together and start working together very quickly. We didn't really have the luxury of years of getting to know each other. We had to kind of get together, know each other, and start working together all in the same day. So it was very much emphasis on the kind of the forming part.

Douglas: Yeah, it's interesting. You mentioned this situation where we don't have years to get to know each other. We have to assemble and move pretty quickly. I would hazard a guess that we'll see more of that in the future as the different models emerge for finding work and doing work. To me, the future work is about more kind of open talent.

Alison: Yeah. And temporary teams as well. I mean, I think the challenges that we're facing and the problems that we want to solve and how we want to innovate, we're going to need to bring different skillsets together. And that means that it's going to be teams that are made up of people that have never worked together before, because we're going to need to bring skills together in new ways. It's almost like different jigsaw puzzles or different recipes, if you like. The raw ingredients, but mixing them up in different ways, and you get a different result. So we're going to have to get much more used to working with people that we don't know and, therefore, understanding what it takes to get a team up and running more quickly, which, like you say, it's less to do with the content and more to do with the process of how. We need to get better at having those kinds of conversations.

Douglas: Yeah. To me, the word trust comes to mind. How do we get to that point of trust quickly? And I'm curious of what your go-to strategies or what you found to work to kind of really kick start some of that.

Alison: Yeah. Well, there's a few things. I mean, I always talk about the value of a check in at the start of a meeting and finding a question that everyone can respond to, which not only kind of creates a moment for people to kind of focus and say what we're going to—we’re in the room together, and we need to give our attention, but also an opportunity for people to get to know each other.

The book The Checklist Manifesto by Atul Gawande, he did a lot of research in hospitals, and he found that the teams that were going into surgery, the doctors and nurses and anesthetists that introduced themselves at the beginning of the surgery before they started operating were more likely to have a successful surgery because the fact that they spoke up at the beginning and got to know each other, got to know each other’s names, meant they were more likely to speak up later on during the surgery if they saw something going wrong.

There's a real power in that kind of pause at the beginning of a session. And I don’t mean those introductions where you go around the room. I mean, I think I find those kind of quite daunting, actually, when I’m in a room of people that I don't know and I'm under pressure to introduce myself in a really effective way. But finding an interesting question that you can talk around.

I mean, I think the other thing as well, which goes back to social psychology, is that finding ways that people can find things in common with each other, whether it's two brothers or their parents grew up in the same town or their birthdays are in the same month, even things like that can start to help to build that connection which will then lead to trust. So as a facilitator, again, it's about finding those questions. And I don't really like to call them icebreakers all the time. And I know that there's value in icebreakers, but I feel that this is really part of the work. It's not just something that's breaking the ice. It's something that's really helping people to get together and to focus on the work. And there's so much out there. There’s so many questions that we can pick up on. People have created kits for questions that you can ask at the start of a meeting. So they can ware short on those kinds of questions, but I think the fact is we need to design something at the beginning to open up those kinds of conversations.

Douglas: I think you're so spot on. You know, if we can tie it to our purpose and have it align, and there’s a broader intent or reason why we're doing that work, then icebreakers, whatever you want to call it, they have value. But if we’re just going to throw them in because, “Oh, we always do this,” then we're just kind of going through the motions.

I really would love to talk a little bit about—I was thinking about those—I had written down the word team charter. And I was thinking, also, about Patrick Lencioni’s organizational health is so important versus operational excellence. And so I'm curious to just hear your thoughts on this notion of the team really kind of coming together and kind of defining who they are as an objective.

Alison: Absolutely love it. Yeah. It’s one of the key principles that I have is that in order for a team to identify how they’re going to work, how everyone's going to do their best work, they have to sit down and really explore, first of all, who's on the team and what each individual is bringing to the team, as well as each of those individuals, how they work and how they do their best work. They also need to consider, therefore, what everybody looks like, what that looks like as a team, when you bring all of those people together, because that's going to be unique. Because if we're working in these temporary teams and each team is going to be made up of different types of people, which means each team is going to be different as well, then you need to think about what is it that you're actually working on—some projects are more fast paced than others. Some are more pressurized than others, that require more creativity and innovation than others—but really understands what it is that you need to do together. And then, also, understand the context that you're working within as well and whether that's going to influence the way that you work together. And then once you've got all of that, once you've kind of discussed that as a team and understood it, that's when you’re in the position to really start designing, okay, so this is a situation that we're in. How are we going to do our best work? How can we create the environment for us also individually, do our best work within the way that we can, acknowledging that we’re going to need to make some compromises, and, therefore, what does that mean as a team for us doing our best work as well?

So I actually love the idea of a team charter and particularly the idea of getting to know everybody's working styles so that there's that shared empathy across the team as well.

Douglas: Yeah. It reminds me of this technique where managers will write a manual on how to understand them, and give it to their employees or their direct reports. And I think that being able to do that as a team and get to a high-level understanding can be really powerful.

There is a technique I always loved to use as a manager if I had two employees that were struggling. Most of the time, it came down to a lack of understanding about role and perspective and capability, skillset. Unless there was something pathological going on, I would just ask them to go to coffee and tell them, “You can't talk about work. I don't want you to talk about your tasks or what's going on. I just want you to take turns telling each other what the other person does. Describe the other person's role, in your words, and just listen to each other. And once you're done sharing back and forth, then discuss that.” It's, like, 99 times out of 100, they come back, and they're like, “Oh. You know, I had no idea.”

Alison: Yeah. I love that. I love that.

The other tool that I've used as well—and these are particularly across teams, actually, that have conflict, like maybe a marketing or a sales team, or I've done it with a research department in a university that had relationship with the academics they work with—I use the empathy map, which is, like, a really great way to kind of sit down, use the empathy map usually with your potential customers or clients if you’re service, but using the empathy map with people that you work with. Again, really trying to dig in deep and to really see things from their point of view. Again, you can kind of help to smooth some of those conflicts over.

Douglas: Yeah, that's great. It reminded me of how awesome it is when organizations and consultants are using design-thinking tools to point them inward and start thinking employee experience versus customer experience.

Alison: That was—you’re talking about all the stuff I love talking about and writing about. I mean, I literally just wrote a post about design thinking and using design thinking as a way to build resilient teams. And again, one of the main things that I talk about a lot is that we've got all of these innovation tools which help us to create amazing products and services and innovate in those areas. If we turn them inwards, into our team, then actually we can innovate the way that we work as well. Most teams, if you think about UX or products, they're used to using these tools. They’re kind of second nature to them. But often, they haven't thought about just flipping them internally and using them to really create new ways of working together, and they can be really powerful when used in that way.

Douglas: Absolutely. One of my favorites—we were talking about starting meetings earlier—one of my favorites is starting with hopes and fears, because you talk about feeling strongly about something, this is your career. You spend more time with these people than you sometimes do with family because, frankly, there's eight hours of your waking day is at the office, or at home, logged into a virtual session. And so there’s going to be a lot of emotional baggage tied up in teams and things. And so just giving people space to express those things can be really powerful.

Alison: 100 percent. And, you know, I think that's the key, right? We spend so much of our time at work. We often—I think people don't have the awareness or feel that they have the permission to make work better. And, you know, one of the thoughts is that if you make it work better—because we spend so much time at work and particularly in the area that we work in, a lot of our work is done with teams—if we spend the time making teamwork better, it will change the experience that we have of work. And because we spend so much time at work, it's kind of going to change the experience that we have over all of our lives because if we're spending so much time at work and if we don't like our jobs, then, actually, that has an impact on how we feel generally. If we love our work, we feel that we're able to go and express ourselves, and we have the opportunity to thrive, do our best work, have amazing conversations with our colleagues, which push us and challenge us and enable us to grow. And that's going to have a knock on effects in our lives outside of work as well. And that's one of the things that really gets me going.

I actually did a bit of an interview earlier, and one of the questions was, what's your biggest delusion? And my delusion is, is that one day everybody goes to work or looks forward to going to work and has brilliant days every single day. I don't know. That's kind of like a utopia. But that is, you know, that's my biggest delusion.

Douglas: You know, I think that's really beautiful. And I was just coaching someone recently on leadership, and they had, not that long ago, been promoted. They're a software developer, and they're kind of on the track to become V.P. of engineering at their startup. And the thing that I noticed, this trend, was they were from a background of just big company, corporate gigs, where the hobby or the pastime is to sit back and just complain about all the things that are wrong. All the things about work and all the things the boss did and someone else did and blah, blah, blah. And that stuff’s addictive. That mindset, that behavior, that pastime is super addictive. And I'm a big fan of positive deviance as a workshop technique, and it can be a way of life, too, if we just reflect on what's working rather than what's not working. But as, especially as engineers, it can be really difficult or really easy, I would say, just to fall into that trap. And I'm trained and lifelong engineer, a software developer, and we've spent our entire career building our abilities to figure out what could go wrong and to plan against it, and find the bugs and fix them. And we have to be able to turn that off and look at the positive sometime, because if we're always looking at what won't work, then we'll never see the beauty that we might be able to pursue.

Alison: Mm, yeah. And I even like what you said about looking at finding the bugs and fixing it. You can even kind of put a positive spin on that. If we look at that as work, what's not working in work, and kind of think what we want to problem solve and the things that aren't working to make it better, that's the kind of really good way of looking at is, is also a positive spin. But I do agree that it feels quite addictive, and it almost feels like there's a kind of element of that's what work’s meant to be. We're not meant to enjoy it. We’re meant to moan about work. We’re meant to moan about our colleagues.

But what if we weren’t? What if work was meant to be this place where you go to where you are fulfilled? It enables you to sort of, not in a, I guess, in a controlled way, but enables you to be a better human. It enables you to kind of search for what it is that you want to do and kind of grow and develop and explore and become a better communicator. So therefore, you can contribute in better ways to your family, to your community, to society.

I'd love for companies to see themselves as having that role. Can you imagine if companies, alongside, see companies have to make a profit and they have to survive, otherwise they can’t employ people. But when they do kind of get to that stage, it's like, what if we saw ourselves as a place where people come to thrive, because we see the impact that that's going to have on society?

Douglas: That's beautiful. I love it.

I'm going to switch gears a little bit and come back—it's something I was thinking about when we were talking about the forming and just understanding each other and some of the things that are required to build trust. And it struck me—and this is something that we've been doing in some of our workshops. I've found great results with it, and I'm sure it's found your way into your work—where usually when people get along or there's disagreements or they're disgruntled by someone, it's because they have a weakness of their teammates. It's the behavior that their teammate or someone on the team’s exhibiting is hurtful or doesn't connect in some way, and it upset someone. And usually, I've found that those behaviors are the exact opposite manifestation of a strength.

So, for instance, let's take one example, which is I'm an achiever, so I get a lot of stuff done. So then my expectations on others can be quite high, unless I check myself and say, “Not everyone is going to be functioning on this achiever level as me. And even when I keep taking them into account, it can potentially still come off as overwhelming to others. And it's one thing for me to carry that burden and do my best to take care of others, but if we talk about all of this as a team, now everyone else can understand that ‘Oh, I don't need to interpret this as an attack on me. That’s just Douglas being an achiever. And that's great for the team.’”

Alison: Yeah, absolutely.

Douglas: Yeah.

Alison: Of course, I’ve a bit of a love-hate relationship with personality tests. Well, I’m kind of addicted to them because I love doing them for myself, but then I know that they have their limits in the past—

Douglas: Yes.

Alison: But I think that they’re a good entry point into self-awareness. And what happens—I remember when I did my first one, which, I think, was Myers Briggs years ago, and it was kind of mind-blowing for me because we need, sometimes, need these kind of assessments. How did they get that so right? But what it did for me was, as well as kind of creating that self-awareness, with Myers Briggs, for example, you've got those 15 other personality types. And you're like, “Oh, right. The reason that person and I clash all the time is that they were on the opposite end of the scale. So they just see things in a different perspective from me.”

So that, actually, that's the most powerful outcome of the personality test, I think, second to the initial self-awareness is the awareness that other people see things and work in different ways. And the more that you can understand that, the more that you can benefit from collaboration, because in a collaborative team, you don't want people that all work in the same way. And that's the whole point of collaborating, that you get different perspectives. But the nature of having those different perspectives may cause conflict if people haven't taken the time to get to know each other and understand how people see things and, therefore, how valuable that is to have those different perspectives.

It also comes back to the debate around diversity at the moment, which is the value not only from a moral standpoint, that people, the team should be diverse because we are globally diverse, but at the same time, the opportunities that come from inviting or including people into a conversation that have different perspectives and being able to hold those types of conversations. And we've seen that it's pretty challenging, but it’s something that we have to learn to do, not only because we want to make the world better, but also it just makes better workplaces.

Douglas: So, when we talk about working together and how we're going to do that, we've spoken a lot about the soft skills and the understanding around coming together and understanding how we're going to work together. I think there's also some very, I would say, more hard skills that go into how we're going to work together. Even deciding, are we going to use Google Docs and do some real-time collaboration, or what tools are we going to use? When are we going to meet? When does it make sense to have certain types of meetings? And I think that that causes a lot of strain on teams when they don't have those conversations and they take it for granted or they let things evolve organically versus having some upfront conversations around, what's the best way for us to share these things, and what is our iteration cadence, etc.?

Alison: Mm. So, here's the thing, right, is that this can be seen as a design process. You can create and design the way that you work together as a team. And, you know, all those kind of factors I mentioned before—the individuals on the team, the project that you're working on, the context that you’re working with it—what do you need to design to enable you to reach the outcomes that you set for yourself? And that might be looking specifically at how you meet, when you meet, what types of meetings you're going to have, what tools you're going to use, and how you're going—but not even just what tools you're going to use, but how you're going to use those tools. We're going to use Slack for this, and we’re going to use Google Docs for this.

The other thing is what kinds of mechanisms and, perhaps, rituals can you put in place to foster that communication and the connection and trust—we’ve seen this a lot with remote teams. We've seen it a lot in remote teams in the fact that, you know, people aren't in the office as much, and they’ve really been missing that connection. And it's not that you can necessarily replicate those water-cooler moments in the office, but there is something that you can create to try to ensure that you're checking in with your colleagues, for example, or you are having those kind of social chats, and being really intentional about how you work together. And then thinking, “This is all a behavior-change piece.” So not only do we want to collaborate better, and, therefore, that means we need to have this meeting then and that meeting then, but actually really be specific about how and when you're going to start to develop these behaviors or make them habits.

Douglas: Mm. I love this notion of developing behaviors and making them habits.

Alison: Mm. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is it. You know, if we want to work differently, then we're going to be changing the way that we work, and, actually, we know that as humans, we find change quite difficult to do off of our own backs. However, when change is done to us, like we’ve seen in the recent situation, we’ve had to change quite quickly, when we're trying to be proactive about change, then we have to be a lot more, I guess, disciplined with ourselves about how it's going to take place. So it's not just the conversations with your team of saying, “We want to be a good collaborative team.” It’s saying, “Well, what does collaboration look like to us, and what do we mean by collaboration? And on a practical level, what actions do we take in order to make that happen? And then, when are we going to do those actions? And what does it look like? How do we know that it's working?” and making sure that you're having those kind of regular conversations as a team to review how you're working and what you need to improve or what you need. It's right on.

Douglas: Yeah. Speaking of change, if you could change anything about most meetings, would it be?

Alison: When I say most meetings, I'm talking about the team meetings that are kind of big parts of projects because the “getting to know you” meetings are slightly different than presentation meetings. But I would say that I would love teams to look at those kinds of meetings and approach them as if they were workshops. So that means taking each of those meetings and thinking, “Right, okay, what is the purpose? What is the outcome? What are the things that we need to discuss? And what are the best ways to discuss those different points? And then, how can we make it engaging, and how can we make sure that everybody gets the chance to have a say?” So I think that's one of the things that I would like to see change in meetings is that how can we make some of our meetings more workshop like? because that's what we need. If you want collaborative discussions, that's exactly what a workshop achieves.

Douglas: Yeah. We're going to increase participation that way, for sure.

Alison: Right.

Douglas: I love that. It’s like, can we unleash everyone? because I think so many meetings provide too many opportunities for social loafing.

Alison: Mm. And for people to dominate, as well, the conversation. And that's the special role of a facilitator is that they are there to keep an eye on these things and make sure that the conversation is inclusive, kind of draw out the things that aren't being said and the people that aren't speaking, and understand why they're not speaking.

Douglas: Yeah. How have you noticed some of those dynamics change now that we're in the virtual space so much more often?

Alison: Yeah, no less people being intentional about it, then it doesn’t change. I think that was one of the big mistakes that happened is that everyone got very excited by having these online, virtual meetings because we had Zoom, and we've got Slack and those kinds of things. But they didn’t—if meetings are terrible face to face anyway, then they're not automatically going to be amazing because they're virtual. You've still got to apply the same principles of planning those meetings and making them better.

I think it's the same conversation that we have around collaboration. You know, just by putting great people in the room doesn't mean that they're automatically going to work well together. It can happen. But actually, if you want to increase the chances of success, then you've got to be intentional about it. And it's the same with our online meetings.

So where people were feeling, perhaps, that they weren't able to contribute in online meetings, in fact, it's been accentuated. So where they weren't able to contribute in face-to-face meetings, it's been accentuated in online meetings. And all of the kind of cracks in cultures, in meeting cultures, in team cultures, have just been highlighted and enhanced even more in a situation where we have to work remotely.

And I do believe that a lot of this stuff—I mean, I know I'm biased, but I think what I learned from facilitating workshops was really transformational for me. I said that I started off my career, but I was working with creatives. I was working with freelance creatives. These are people that worked for themselves. They were their own boss, and they were specialists. So I knew, as somebody who didn't have any knowledge about how they did their work and how they got their results, there was just no point in me telling them what to do. I didn't want to tell them what to do. That's the whole point. I got in there because I wanted to kind of draw on their expertise.

Now we're finding ourselves in a situation where the workplace looks a little bit more like that. We are bringing together multidisciplinary teams. People are specialists in their own areas. And the way that we've managed in the past through, or the traditional idea of the manager, i.e. telling people what to do and making decisions, won't work in an environment where we want innovation.

And what I learned from facilitating workshops was transformational because for me a workshop is the exact same feeling and environment that you need to lead a creative team through uncertainty is exactly what a facilitator does. So it’s almost like, how do leaders take on some of those principles of facilitation and apply them to how they work with their teams? because that's kind of what we need. We need to make that shift from the tell-and-sell manager to a manager or a leader that is more facilitative and creates the space for people to do their work and enables those conversations.

Douglas: You know, I recently had Lynda Baker on the podcast, and she loves to share this definition of facilitation to be to make ease.

Alison: Yeah.

Douglas: And I'm pretty fascinated by this definition, and especially as it relates to what you were just talking about around, how can leaders improve their teams by adopting these skills and this way of working? And tying back to your point around, can we help teams and employees and workers enjoy their work more and not feel like they're dreading work? And if management is less about like—well, leadership is less about managing and having you under their thumb, and more about, how can I make this easy? that seems like it would bring about more delight.

Alison: Absolutely. Do you know that that—I talk about this all the time. If anyone's heard me speak at events, then you know that I talk about this all the time, but it just made me think about Teresa Amabile’s book The Progress Principle, where she identified that the thing that knowledge workers want more than anything or the thing that ignites most joy in people's work is that they've made progress every single day and it, therefore, changes the way that we look at managers, that managers are there to clear the path to make that progress easy, which goes back to Lynda Baker's definition of facilitation.

Douglas: Mm. It also reminds me of—I think Gallup did a study and came up with these twelve questions that were the critical questions that you could ask of employees to kind of rate their satisfaction. They kind of presented a little more negatively in the sense that, like, if they answer no to more than one or two of these questions, then they're probably likely to leave. I always found them to be really powerful questions, the pepperin and one-on-ones and stuff. But I've never used them in workshops, and I just jotted it down because I think it could be interesting to start kind of bringing those in and thinking about, could they be almost design principles? So instead of using them as a reactive measure, we actually use them as a standard to, like, well, how do we design situations that ensure we're all yeses on all these questions?

Alison: Yes. Yeah.

Douglas: One of them was, do you feel that you're doing your best work?

Alison: Mm, yeah, yeah. If you're kind of looking at that from a design point of view, again, it comes back to that self-reflection. It’s like, how can you be sure that you're doing your best work, or what do you need to be able to do your best work?

Douglas: Yeah. And are we making sure we're putting people on the right teams? Like, if we’re routinely reassembling and looking at projects, who should be on the projects could be highly informed by the fact of, well, where could Susan be doing her best work? and not necessarily what’s most convenient for me as a leader or for whatever reasons, we can kind of consider some of these things when we're allocating resources.

Alison: And that's what makes me think that that's what work should be about, because you’re going to get not only engaged employees, but if you kind of bring someone in that is able to do their best work on whatever projects that they're doing, then that's going to benefit the company in the long run, obviously, because you've just got all these people that are just doing amazing work wherever you put them.

Douglas: So, I want to wrap up with one question, which is, if you're thinking about a leader who’s just starting to hear some of these things, and they're curious about how facilitation could play a role in the future of their organization, or it could even be someone in the trenches that just wants to be a facilitator, what's your biggest advice as far as how to start to gain the benefits of facilitation and start to practice some of this stuff?

Alison: I would say, don’t feel that you have to only practice facilitation in a workshop setting. There are skills in facilitation, which is, I guess, what I've been saying throughout our chat is that the skills of things like asking great questions and listening, I mean, they’re very aligned to coaching, actually. But actually, if you start with those two, that for a week, every conversation that you have with one of your team, just ask questions and listen and see how that changes and shifts the dynamic. That's a key skill that a facilitator will have to use in sessions anyway, asking questions and listening to those responses. And that's, again, what makes facilitation really powerful because people are being listened to. So I’d say try to extract some of those skills. Definitely look at how you command your meetings to be more facilitated as well. So some of the kind of classic ways of designing workshops and facilitation skills. But I would say, also, look at the opportunities outside of those workshop settings for using facilitation skills where you can apply them.

Douglas: I love that. People can go to all the training they want. And I've talked to countless facilitators who have gotten lots of training and even multiple levels, and are still daunted when they're asked to plan a meeting with the CEO. They’re asking for advice of, what do I do? And I think you're right. Practice matters so much, and you don't have to wait for the meeting, the big event, the big workshop, to your point earlier. The best way to improve meetings is to make them feel more facilitated, make them feel more like workshops. So start practicing this stuff on everyday meetings, where the stakes are a little lower. And quite frankly, the stakes are higher than you might realize because doing that’s going to unleash so much value, as you previously mentioned.

Alison: Absolutely. Yeah.

Douglas: Excellent.

Well, this has been such a pleasure, chatting with you today. How can the listeners—how can they find you?

Alison: You can find me on LinkedIn, Alison Coward, on LinkedIn. You can also find me at my website, which is bracketcreative.co.uk. And my email address is alison@[email protected] to get in contact with me.

Douglas: Excellent.

Well, it's been a pleasure, chatting with you, Alison. I really enjoyed the conversation.

Alison: Likewise. Thank you so much.

Outro: Thanks for joining me for another episode of Control the Room. Don't forget to subscribe to receive updates when new episodes are released. If you want more, head over to our blog, where I post weekly articles and resources about working better together. Voltagecontrol.com

"I just started to see really smart, prolific, skilled people who shared my values."

-Lynda Baker

I'm excited to have Lynda Baker, IAF Certified Professional Facilitator Master, meeting leader coach, and founder and president of Meeting Solutions Online on today's episode of Control the Room. As a certified professional facilitator, she creates collaborative client relationships, plans appropriate group processes, creates and sustains a participatory environment, and guides groups to appropriate and useful outcomes. She also trains meeting leaders and managers who want to remove blocks that prevent them from running productive meetings.

While a freshman in college, she wanted to be an orientation leader. She volunteered to work at the admissions office at the State University of New York, who had an excellent peer advisor orientation. Lynda learned about active listening, leading groups of students, and parent groups. The program equipped her with the skills to engage others in conversation. Additionally, she and several peers from this group volunteered to be response volunteers at a local crisis center. These experiences planted the seed to be involved in her career.

Working in an incubator, "I found myself demonstrating these really amazing pieces of technology in a room that was an intranet because the internet wasn't even that powerful in those days."

We talk about her early days of being seduced by technology, why she clicked with the IAF, and how the IAF holds people accountable. Listen in to find out how Laura teaches the concepts of facilitation, why "your" meeting isn't "your" meeting, and why you don't have to manage or control every part of the conversation.

[00:55] How Lynda started her career path to a group facilitator.

[03:58] Her journey from her early experiences to what she does today.

[07:24] How Lynda got started and what she would do differently if she were to relaunch now.

[10:14] IAF and understanding facilitated values and facilitated behaviors and the impact of engagement.

[13:26] Differences between a moderator and a facilitator.

[15:35] Laura speaks about her experience with training facilitation.

[18:36] Leaders and how they can harness the power of facilitation.

[21:30] Why engagement is not entertainment.

[25:48] Having operating agreements instead of ground rules.

[29:47] Gratitude in facilitation and recognizing the contributions of the group.

[34:22] How can participants be better participants?

[38:27] Behaviors that go unchecked during facilitation.

[41:50] Why Laura believes that a Master's degree in Leadership Change is the most critical degree needed for our world today.

Meeting Solutions Online

Lynda Baker on LinkedIn

Lynda facilitates well-designed meetings, face-to-face and on-line, that create actionable results. As a certified professional facilitator, she establishes collaborative client relationships, plans appropriate group processes, creates and sustains a participatory environment, and guides groups to appropriate and useful outcomes. She also trains meeting leaders and managers who want to remove blocks that prevent them from running productive meetings.

Proudly cited as a creative senior-level organizational development professional with a passion for finding the right process to engage collaboration for problem-solving, decision-making, and action planning; her superpower is surfacing clarity that leads to productive outcomes and action plans across organizational levels.

Voltage Control is a facilitation agency that helps teams work better together with custom-designed meetings and workshops, both in-person and virtual. Our master facilitators offer trusted guidance and custom coaching to companies who want to transform ineffective meetings, reignite stalled projects, and cut through assumptions. Based in Austin, Voltage Control designs and leads public and private workshops that range from small meetings to large conference-style gatherings.

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Intro: Welcome to the Control the Room Podcast, a series devoted to the exploration of meeting culture and uncovering cures for the common meeting. Some meetings have tight control, and others are loose. To control the room means achieving outcomes while striking a balance between imposing and removing structure, asserting and distributing power, leaning in and leaning out, all in the service of having a truly magical meeting.

Douglas: Today I'm here with Lynda Baker, IAF-certified professional facilitator-master, meeting leader coach, and founder and president of Meeting Solutions Online.

Welcome to the show, Lynda.

Lynda: Thank you, Douglas. I'm happy to be here.

Douglas: So, Lynda, tell us a little bit about how you got started.

Lynda: Well, I really was a wee tot, I must confess. I think I really got started as a facilitator when I was a freshman in college. I was one of those enthusiastic freshmen who wanted to be an orientation leader someday, and so I volunteered to work in the admissions office at this wonderful institution, the State University of New York at Stony Brook. And they had an awesome peer-advisor, peer-counseling orientation. And I learned about T-groups and about active listening and about leading groups of students who were coming to the university in conversations and leading parent groups, talking to parents who were interested in coming to the university, or having their children come. And even though there was a certain amount of content that we were sharing, we were also equipped with lots of skills to engage these students, prospective students, and these parents, in conversations. So there was that piece.

And the other piece was that it was the early days of creating what I think are now referred to as I&R services, information and referral services, like people who call crisis lines and want information. And there was a crisis line that was being created in the town of Stony Brook called Response, and several of my peers and I volunteered to be trained to be Response volunteers on the phone. And I think both of those activities as a college student really planted the seeds for me to be passionate about this field, although I didn't find that out until a little bit later in my career.

Douglas: And so tell me a little bit more about—I mean, I think it's fascinating to think back around some of the early seeds that are planted and how they start to grow and develop into something that's ultimately a beautiful, flowering career in facilitation. You kind of mentioned that there was a moment much later on that it became more obvious. So was there something that was transformative later, or how did that journey from those early experiences flow into where you are today?

Lynda: Well, I think that the professional career that I chose and my academic training had very strong elements of facilitation, and my master's degree is in Higher Education Administration. So I was a student personnel worker, and I worked with college students and really did a lot of shared leadership. I did leadership training with them and empowered them to make decisions. And trained resident advisors. So I had that background. And then I was in a graduate program in counseling psychology. So my academic background dovetailed quite well.

But I think it was when I was working, very interestingly enough, I was working at an organization called the Austin Technology Incubator, and it was in the early days of what we now call remote workshops. In those days, we called it electronic-meeting software or group-decision-support software. And I found myself demonstrating these really amazing pieces of technology in a room that was an intranet because the Internet wasn't even that powerful in those days. The Web wasn't even that powerful in those days. And I would demonstrate this really cool software that companies at the Incubator were developing.

And I worked for the Incubator as their external relations assistant. I did public relations, and I worked with students. And people would say, "You're really good at that. Do you work for this company?" And I would say, "No. I work for the Incubator." And I started realizing that I could do something that I really loved to do that lots of other people didn't necessarily like to do or were not necessarily that good at doing.

And it occurred to me: I'm at this incubator that's incubating businesses, starting businesses. I'm getting feedback that this is something I'm really good at. Maybe I need to just go out on my own and do more of this in another way. So I actually started my business in the '90s, thinking I was going to do electronic-meeting software. I was going to haul around 20 laptop computers and set them up in rooms, or I was going to buy a boat load of keypads, and we were going to do—you know, of course, now people laugh at that, like who needs that? Just log on. So it's really exciting to see what's happened with this field and what's going on now, particularly in 2020 when everything is "electronic meetings," when everything is digital and virtual.

Douglas: I find that remarkable, this idea that incubators are there to help startups get launched. But I often find that people share that experience that you had, where they're part of the startup or a part of the support environment. They're an employee of the incubator, and they learn by watching these startups, and then that gives them the confidence to go start their own thing. So it's awesome that this has been happening since the '90s. I hadn't heard a story quite like that. That's incredible.

So when you were making that shift to start to have these electronic meetings with clients, and you had this dream of putting together these laptops, what was your first step in starting a company? There's a lot of folks out there who want to start facilitation companies, and that's pretty early in the game. So how did you get started, and what would you do differently if you had to start over now?

Lynda: Well, I think one of the things I did was I did a lot of work aligning with the handful of companies that were in the marketplace, who had software that enabled people to collaborate together—I wanted to say online, but I'm not even sure that that was an accurate statement—on a shared network of computers. And at the time, looking back on it, I think that I was a little bit more seduced, I think, by the razzmatazz of the technology. And it was later that I became more developed in terms of my own skills. And I got that, in large part, through affiliating with the International Association of Facilitators. They were having their second, I think, or third conference in Dallas.

Douglas: So what was it about the International Association of Facilitators that allowed you to kind of take a step back from the razzmatazz of the software? What was that thing that really clicked for you?

Lynda: I think I was introduced to the founders of IAF, actually, were the founders, and many people who were involved with the Institute of Cultural Affairs, which is this global organization of people who were doing lots of facilitation and said, "You know, there are other people out there doing facilitation, too. We are doing it to try to advance participation in communities, to advance participation as a sort of a social movement. But there are lots of people out there also doing this. Maybe we can create an association." So they were really, many of those people from ICA were the founders of IAF.

And I think I was realizing that there were lots of people who shared the same values that I shared about collaboration, about engagement. And then I also met some of the people who've now become stellar luminaries in my field. I met Sam Kaner and I met Roger Schwarz, and I met lots of people, Ingrid Bens. I just started to see really smart, prolific, skilled people who shared my values, and they didn't need the razzmatazz of technology necessarily, but they understood what facilitative values were. They understood what facilitative behaviors were, and they understood the impact of engaging participation. This notion that the whole really is greater than the sum of its parts, which is, actually, the topic of my recent MURAL talk is the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. We, the people means we, the people. It's not just a platitude. You can really make a "we, the people" occur in a meaningful way in a meeting room.

Douglas: That's brilliant. And it sounds like the community and just the amazing people that were coming together to talk about these things and how they were shaping the craft, if you will, it really spoke to you.

Lynda: Well, yes, it was the community, and it was a community and still is a community that holds people accountable to some standards. When I got involved, they first started talking about what are facilitator competencies? How do we collectively define this body of knowledge, these abilities, behaviors, skills? How do these things fit together to really define what a facilitator is?

I think about the ways in which certain words are used in our culture. Counselor is a good one. You go to the doctor's office or you go to some place, a medical place, and they say, "Oh, the financial counselor would like to talk to you." It's, like, that's not a counselor; that's accounts receivable. But people use the word counselor so loosely.

And I think facilitator is like that as well sometimes. People think everybody's a facilitator. And everybody's not a facilitator; this is a profession. And IAF got out there and said, "We're going to define what these competencies are, what it means to say you're a facilitator. And we have standards." And I really appreciated that, and I appreciate it being a part of that movement in our field.

Douglas: The word moderator came to mind when you were talking about words that kind of get thrown around. And I know my heart sinks whenever I coach someone that is looking to improve their meetings; or even a lot of virtual stuff these days, where we get pulled in just to coach and help people. A lot of times, people don't have budget, but we can still help them out and point them in the right direction.

I was helping out someone recently and kind of explaining how some of this stuff works. And they were like, they came back to me and said, "Oh, we found a moderator." And I was just like, "Well, you know, you can you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink, necessarily."

Lynda: You can't make them facilitate. They might just want to moderate instead.

It's an interesting thing that you bring that up, because I will say to people, sometimes, "I think you don't need a facilitator. I think what you're talking about may be, in fact, a moderator." In other words, I think it's up to us as a profession to try to educate people, and I think that's another reason why I appreciate the designation, is to help educate people about, I'm not a presenter. And yes, a trainer may use facilitative techniques, but someone who's delivering training is not a facilitator of training. They are a trainer who's using facilitative techniques.

So, I'm a former president of the Austin chapter of the Association of Talent Development, which used to be Society for Training and Development, so I have a lot of strong feelings about training, and I understand what training is, and it's not the same as being a facilitator.

So it's to your point, this is like a moderator, trainer, facilitator. It's like, oh, they're all the same thing. No, no, no, no, no, no. They're not the same thing.

Douglas: So, you teach a class on facilitation, or facilitative leadership, I think, to be more specific. And I'm really curious. We never spoke about this, so I'll be learning on the fly. Students usually have aha moments, and usually they're fairly common threads from semester to semester, cohort to cohort. What's the thing that keeps just recurring as you're teaching this class that are just, like, pivotal moments for students as they're embarking on learning about facilitation?

Lynda: So you were asking about my class that I teach. I teach a class called Facilitation as a Tool for Strategic Leadership. And my colleague, Dr. Tom Sechrest, had me come to speak to his classes in the master's program in leadership and change at St. Edward's University many years. And after several years of enthusiasm in these students, on Tom's part, he said, "Maybe you ought to teach a special projects class on this subject of facilitation. I knew it was important in my class as a speaker, but it could be a whole class."

So I embarked on that three years ago. And of course, this year it was totally online. And as of two days ago, my students' final projects are due, so I'm going to be reading about their aha moments any moment. But I think that what I've observed that's been very interesting is having trained facilitation, teaching people techniques, for many, many years—I teach the technology of participation, which is an ICA methodology—I now am really teaching more concepts of facilitation. I'm not necessarily teaching skills.

And I think what's been really fascinating to me is students will say, "I took conflict resolution, and we learned a little bit about action learning. But the way you teach this class, I sort of see how it is applied in interacting with people. You demonstrated a lot of that to me." And I have to be honest, Douglas. I don't realize that I'm doing that intentionally, but I've been very gratified to see how people seem to say, "Hmm, if I'm going to be a strategic leader, I may not be a facilitator in the traditional sense of being what a facilitator is, but if I really understand what facilitators do, there are foundational principles and values and behaviors that I can shamelessly steal from that profession and use as being a really good strategic leader." I mean, I think that that's interesting now that I think about it—I hadn't thought about it except about our conversation we had before we even started this recording, when we were talking about Roger Schwarz's book Smarter Leaders, Smarter Teams. I mean, I think his first book was The Skilled Facilitator, but he's teaching leadership now. I hadn't really thought about it, frankly, until this very minute, that synapse, or that connection—that if more leaders were facilitated, we'd probably be in a lot better shape.

Douglas: Absolutely. And we've been talking a lot about how that's the future, right? We're looking at so many ineffective meetings and wasted time. If the leaders understand these things, then they can enact more change across the organization and influence direction through more participation. And I think that's where true innovation can come from.

I guess, looking through that lens of leaders harnessing the power of facilitation, what do you think that can unlock for organizations as far as— like, what is the specific future you could imagine? How would you see organizations starting to change if more leaders were facilitators?

Lynda: Well, I've always said that it's curious that people crave community and yet they abhor meetings. And I think if more leaders understood that people are passionate about getting things done, and they know that they must get them done with other people and cannot get them done alone, and that the reason why they abhor meetings is that there are so many blocks to their productivity in those sessions that they become frustrated. So I think that the secret sauce for a facilitator and for a leader is to learn how to remove obstacles and blocks rather than put things in that are irrelevant or clever or entertaining or the many things that people do. "Oh, I think I'll do an icebreaker." It's like, "Is there any ice in the room?" I mean, people, I think, need to understand that their jobs are not to be necessarily entertaining, but engaging in relevant ways and listening to what people's needs are and responding in meaningful ways to what their needs are. So I think if leaders begin to understand ways to not be afraid of learning what those obstacles are, not be afraid of being humble, that's the big learning I've had, to be honest, living in this virtual space right now.

I told my students this summer, "I think I'm the Brené Brown of facilitators." I will just come out and say, "You know what. I just left a breakout room, and by mistake, I left the whole meeting. I needed to get back in." And then they feel comfortable saying, "Really? I didn't know where the Chat button was. Thank you so much for admitting your vulnerability and your…" You know, I think we need to be more human with each other.

Douglas: Absolutely. My speaking coach even gave me advice. He's like, "You don't want to be the hero. No one wants to hear about how awesome you are. But if you show how fallible you are, they'll listen. They'll eat it up." And I think that's just to better engage the audience in the speech, but on the facilitation side, we absolutely need to show our human side because it's not about us. It's not about us entertaining and what not. And you talking about the obstacles and removing those reminded me of our preshow conversation and the definition of facilitation being to make it easy, and I think more facilitators need to meditate on that one.

Lynda: I think, when I first started working in this field, one of my very good friends and colleagues said to me, "You have to remember that this meeting isn't your meeting. It's their meeting." And I kept thinking, "Yeah, but they've hired me to help them with their meeting." Said, "Well, your job is to hold the space and be good at process, but it's their meeting." And I think when I've trained facilitators to hold their breath—or not hold their breath, perhaps—but take a breath and not necessarily intervene quickly in a quiet space in the meeting, that the group will pick up, eventually, the thread of that conversation.

Roger Schwarz once said, "If you don't intervene at a particular moment and you think it's a really appropriate moment, there's a good chance that whatever that challenge is, it will come back again." But it's this notion that there are times to intervene that are appropriate. It also is that you don't have to manage or control every part of this conversation, but you develop a sensitivity to when you can move in and move out.

I think you talk about tight control and loose control. It's kind of like the dance, how you really move in and move out. And it's one of the things that IAF promoted at early conference, I think. They talk about the art and science of facilitation. And it really is both an art and a science, I think.

Douglas: It reminds me of how Keith McCanless talks about falling off the horse and getting on the horse. And sometimes you lose control, and sometimes you—and you have to just be at peace with that. But my whole philosophy is you don't want things to be out of control. We want to unleash everyone. We want to distribute control. But as soon as things veer into—in the form of if we're looking at complexity theory, if we get into chaos, that's not generally a good thing. Wading into complexity and allowing emergent phenomenon, that's all good stuff. And how do we as facilitators maybe surf that line and balance around just enough support where we don't deep into chaos? So we control it just enough so that beautiful things can happen. But we'd all over control it, where we get into the simple demand, and now it's just, you know, obvious solutions that are going to stifle everything.

Lynda: I think that there is a skill to managing conflict, for example, as opposed to trying to cut it off or fearing it. I think that oftentimes there are undiscussables or conflictual undercurrents in a group that can be very illustrative and educational and healing if dealt with appropriately. And oftentimes, that's why people bring in facilitators, because there's something up—they don't quite know what, or they don't know how—but they know they can't do it themselves. And so I think that the degree to which we can hold the space and manage those situations before they are chaotic, but they are conflictual in some ways, that we can guide people to learn from conflicts and not be afraid to talk about difficult things.

One of the expressions that I've heard people talk about when they talk about ground rules—which, I don't like that phrase. I like to call them operating agreements rather than ground rules—is when people say, "There's no such thing as a bad idea." And I often find that to be very—it's really a superficial comment. There are some ideas that are better than other ideas. And if we want to get really good ideas, we need to be comfortable talking about an idea that maybe has some aspects of it that are not going to help us advance to our desired outcome or to advance the results our company needs or to advance to a higher place. So I think that words matter a lot. I think it's up to us to try to help—I made that comment earlier about we, the people. If we really want to have free speech, we need to be really skilled at communicating with one another and deepening the dialog, agreeing on what important words mean, and that's what helps contribute to getting to the bottom of issues and not being afraid to go there.

Douglas: So I agree that words matter, and you have some opinions on ground rules don't set the right tone and your preference for operating agreements. I think that's awesome. What other sorts of verbal judo do you have or kind of words in your toolkit when you're dealing with, let's say, conflict or needing to maybe shift energy in the room? What are some of your Lynda favorites?

Lynda: The first thing that came to my mind, and I'm not even sure if this is what I would call verbal judo, is I often will say, "You need to complain to the person who can do something about the complaint." I think that some of the operating agreements that I talk about—although Schwarz calls them ground rules, but actually he's calling them eight behaviors for smarter teams now. They used to be ground rules, now they're behaviors—are agreeing what important words mean. The famous Fisher and Ury, Getting to Yes guys, talk about focusing on interests rather than positions, sharing relevant information. A lot of those, even if a group's not necessarily embracing those kinds of practices, I do my best to try to promote the use of those words that become—you become more unconsciously competent about it. If you use it for a long-enough time, you start to develop your own skill in actually doing those things.

In the beginning of my career, I used to say, "I'm going to share relevant information right now," or "I'd like to focus on an interest rather than a position right now." And it felt very mechanical. I'm more comfortable saying things like, "This is what I'm interested in. Help me understand what you're interested in, or "This is how I see it. Do you see it similarly, or do you see it differently?"

Douglas: I like that, framing it really clearly and then asking, inviting people to challenge it and correct and maybe nuance. I think that's powerful, for sure.

And I guess, I want to come back to this notion of facilitation making leaders better. And I think that one thing I've noticed in facilitation a lot of times, facilitators talk about holding space, facilitators practice active listening, and I think there's a general thread of gratitude in facilitation, just being grateful for everyone's contribution and recognizing everyone's space and contribution. And I think that alone has a very powerful impact when leaders practice these things, specifically the gratitude. So I say all this out of curiosity around your experience with the, I would say, the overlap between facilitation and gratitude.

Lynda: Wow, that's interesting. I hadn't really thought about the connection between the word grace and gratitude until just now. I think that the current world that we are operating in is a world in which we are called to give one another grace. To me, that means that we are as grateful as we can be for their circumstance and situation, and I think that as a facilitator, we need to be grateful for people giving us the authority, if you will, to lead their meetings.

I learned many years ago that a key to introducing yourself to any group is to express your appreciation to them for giving you their attention. And that is a gift for which you need to be grateful because it's very easy for people to tune you out as a speaker, as a trainer, as a facilitator. So I think we need to express our gratitude for people's time and commitment and earn the right to be in front of that room. There's a lot of humility that I think goes a long way when you realize that for a certain amount of time—an hour, two hours, a day, several days, a couple of weeks—you are being given a lot of attention, and that is very precious.

Douglas: If you could change anything about the way most meetings are run, what would it be?

Lynda: Wow. I think the simple slowing-down-to-speed-up philosophy would be a good way to start. That means listening to what is said and periodically pausing and summarizing what you think has been said and checking back with people and seeing if you are tracking with them. I think that would go a long way if people did that. And I don't only mean meeting leaders. I mean, attendees could do a little bit more of that as well.

Douglas Yeah. So let's talk about that. John Fitch and I have a book that we are working on called The Non-obvious Guide to Magical Meetings, and we have a whole section on how to make meetings better as a participant, so I love the fact that you brought up this notion of participants.

So as facilitators, we end up in other people's meetings. And what's some of your advice to folks that want to be better participants in meetings?

Lynda: I almost feel like, I don't know, maybe a charlatan, answering that question, because I don't think I'm a very good participant. I have to confess.

Douglas: So what makes you a bad participant, Lynda?

Lynda: Well, I get very excited and passionate as the participant. I think I have a lot of needs for attention. And when I get excited in a meeting, I sometimes get carried away, and I think that I'm the kind of participant that some people who are not experienced facilitators think are those people who go on and on, and you have to shut them up already. And so I think that's why I'm a really good facilitator, because I have sympathy for those people, because I am one of those people.

But that's not what you asked. You asked, How could participants be better participants? So now that I've confessed—I did tell you I was the Brené Brown of meeting facilitators—now that I've confessed that I need to teach myself some behaviors, I've been doing a little bit more of this. I have been. When I'm ready to say something in a meeting and I get really excited about it, I've tried to take a few breaths and think to myself, "If you don't say that right now, why don't you wait for two or three more people to say something, and see if maybe someone else is going to say it first." So that would be one thing. When you're really excited about saying something, you can write it down, and then wait a few minutes. That's one behavior.

Another one would be the very thing I said before, which is if you don't feel like you want to—some people say, "Well, I don't really have anything to contribute." I think a good participant can also be a good-enough listener to say, "Although I don't have any ideas directly about what's just been discussed…" I can hear you typing over there. You might be jotting down some really important notes. Although a participant may say, "I don't have much to contribute," they can listen and do that observation. "I seem to hear a theme. I seem to hear a theme right now in this conversation," or "I heard this, this, and this. Is that what people are saying?" So that's another way.

And I think the other great thing everybody can do is to learn how to ask better questions. What I tell my students is, questions are the Swiss Army knife of a good facilitator.

Douglas: Mm. I think it's really great, too, when participants start asking really great, great questions. And I will often—that's one of my operating agreements. I'll stop saying ground rules. I encourage them to, if they have something to share, that they can share in the form of a question, it's best to ask the question. If they think someone else maybe has more details on something, they can poll the group with this. And often, you will learn something because someone answers your question, they're going to answer it slightly differently than you would have shared. And I just think that's a super-amazing alignment tool is getting the team to ask questions of each other rather than just spewing facts over and over again.

Lynda: I think that is also that combination approach of combining advocacy and inquiry, advocating your particular point of view and asking questions. I think you pointed out before, when I mentioned, that you said being able to pose your opinion and then ask people if they see it that way or they see it differently. And that requires sincere curiosity. It's not, "I have a technique. I'm going to tell you what I think. And then I'm going to ask you if you see it similarly or differently." You have to really be curious about whether they do see it the same way or differently. Otherwise, it doesn't really work, you know? And I think that's the idea of being a values-based facilitator, that if your values are really to seek transparency and to share relevant information, then you really are curious. You really want feedback. Sometimes we don't want feedback. Then it would not be a good idea to ask for it.

Douglas: Let's talk a little bit about values-based facilitation.

Lynda: I think that we often have behaviors that go unchecked. We don't necessarily align the way we behave in interactions as well as in facilitative skill or facilitative behaviors as human beings interacting with one another. And I think that really getting to the bottom of what we believe, what our values are, what our code of ethics is—I mean, the IAF has a code of ethics. We believe in the power of collaboration. We believe that it is important to disclose conflicts of interest. We honor the integrity of all participants in a group—you start to have to, in a way, hold yourself accountable to, how do your behaviors align with that? And I think that as a culture, we're looking a lot more closely at, how do our behaviors align with our values?

That's why I think that a meeting room, whether it's face to face or virtual, really needs to reflect values or principles that are way bigger than just your personal opinions about how to manage participation. And as I mentioned earlier, that whole idea of, what does it mean that everyone is welcome? What does that mean, really? If you really believe that everyone is welcome, how do you equitably welcome everybody to the table? How do you respect people who do or do not want to have their cameras turned on? How do you connect with people and welcome people? And how do people want to be welcomed? The difference between the Golden Rule and the Platinum Rule—the Golden Rule is treat others as you would like to be treated. But the Platinum Rule says treat them the way they want to be treated. It may not be the same as the way you want to be treated.

So I think that's the best I can do on values-based facilitation. There's certainly authors that have written extensively. And I think looking at organizations like the IAF or ICA or looking at basic beliefs of an organization or the underpinnings of a philosophy.

Douglas: Yeah, that's great.

What's something that you recently discovered that has given you hope or making you really curious?

Lynda: I think it's the gift of being able to teach at the university at this time. For the first time in the years that I've been teaching at St. Edward's, this year I was able to say to my students, "You are all learning about facilitation as you are earning your master's degree in leadership and change. I know that you thought this degree was important when you began to pursue it, but I want you to recognize right this minute that master's of leadership and change is the most critical degree needed for our world today. And you are all earning that degree, and you're learning about facilitation as you're doing that." And there were many students who looked back at me on, as I refer to it, the Hollywood Squares of Zoom, and their eyes lit up. And I think that as a mom and as a professor and as a professional in this field, I feel like there are lots of young people who really understand the value of engagement and participation. And our world really needs engagement and participation and compassion and empowerment today, not just young people, but thinking about cities and counties that have discovered, "You know, if we don't have strong leadership beyond our city or county or state, it's up to us. It's up to each individual to step up to the plate, and say, 'Yes, I can. And yes, I will.'" And I think facilitators are needed more now than ever before to help people realize that, yes, they can, and yes, we will.

Douglas: Lynda, thank you so much for this great conversation today. It's been such a pleasure to have you on the show and to talk with you. I just want to give you a moment to let listeners know how they can find you.

Lynda: Sheltering in place, they can find me. They can find me at meetingsolutionsonline.com. My email address is [email protected]. And I would love to hear from your listeners. I'd love to hear what they heard, what they thought, what they agreed with, and what they maybe wanted to hear more about, or even disagreed with, because I'm aspiring to learn more about this field myself always.

So, thank you so much for the invitation to speak with you, Douglas. It's been really, really exciting and intriguing for me to hear from you as well. So thank you very much.

Douglas: Always a pleasure, Lynda.

Outro: Thanks for joining me for another episode of Control the Room. Don't forget to subscribe to receive updates when new episodes are released. If you want more, head over to our blog, where I post weekly articles and resources about working better