Part 2 of Episode 2 with Steve Smith, founder of Experiential Consulting and author of Beneficial Risks and Safety Science for Outdoor & Experiential Education.

In Part 1 of this two-part episode, Steve and George discussed a van incident on a muddy BLM road in Utah, the blame cycle, safety clutter, and the lingering effects of Taylorism.

Part 2 builds on those concepts. It opens with a question: immediately after an incident is not the moment to change your safety philosophy, so what can an organization do ahead of time to get out of the blame cycle?

From there: rules versus guidelines, why "safety is our top priority" is a platitude that sidesteps the real conversation, risk optimization, Safety-I and Safety-II, the zero-incident paradox, Boeing's 737 MAX and the Aviation Safety Reporting System, liability avoidance versus operational safety, and what an outdoor industry version of ASRS would need. Steve closes by flipping the microphone and asking George how safety science shapes Field Risk OS.

Clarification: In this episode George refers to the Aviation Safety Reporting System as an FAA tool. ASRS is funded by the FAA but administered by NASA as an independent third party.

Chapters:

00:00 Getting out of the blame cycle before the incident

03:24 Rules, policies, and guidelines: if everything is a policy, nothing is

04:48 Safety-I and Safety-II: we need both

06:26 Hire people for the brain in their head

07:54 Safety is not the mission: show me your budget

11:16 Risk optimization and the impromptu summit

14:24 Us and them in the backcountry

15:27 Sidney Dekker, Erik Hollnagel, and the new view of safety

19:58 A zero-incident philosophy and the zero paradox

23:39 Boeing MCAS and the Aviation Safety Reporting System

25:35 Why the ACMG's reporting system died

28:05 Liability avoidance versus operational safety

29:21 What an outdoor ASRS would need

32:22 The flip: how safety science shaped Field Risk OS

36:44 Learning from everyday work and the crab pot for institutional memory

39:42 Where to find Steve

You can find Steve and his team at outdoorrisk.com, where you can also learn about both books. Steve also hosts the Lucky or Good podcast.

Illustrations in this episode video are from Safety Science for Outdoor & Experiential Education.

Part 1: https://fieldriskos.com/field-debrief/blame-trust-steve-smith

Part 2, Show notes and transcript: https://fieldriskos.com/field-debrief/safety-ii-risk-optimization-steve-smith

All episodes: https://fieldriskos.com/field-debrief

Field Debrief is produced by Field Risk Systems LLC, the company behind Field Risk OS, The Operating System for Expedition Programs.

Full Show Notes: https://fieldriskos.com/field-debrief/field-debrief-episode-2-part-1-steve-smith-safety-science

Steve Smith joins the show for Episode 2 of the Field Debrief podcast. Steve is the founder of Experiential Consulting, a risk management consultancy that works specifically with outdoor and experiential education programs, and the author of two books that provide foundational concepts for anyone working in our field: Beneficial Risks and Safety Science for Outdoor & Experiential Education.

The episode centers around the debrief of a true story: a van accident on a muddy BLM road in Utah, where the organization's first response, written into policy, was a drug test for the insurance company.

Shortly after that policy was introduced, leaders started noticing dings and dents on the fleet that nobody had reported. In Part 1, we analyze the incident (and the broader industry) from numerous angles, including reporting culture and why near misses go unreported, the blame cycle versus the trust loop, blame versus accountability, safety clutter, and the lingering effects of Taylorism.

You can find Steve and his team at outdoorrisk.com, where you can also learn about both books. Steve also hosts the Were We Lucky or Were We Good? podcast.

Illustrations in this episode video are from Safety Science for Outdoor & Experiential Education.

Part 2 of our conversation will be released later in September. All episodes and show notes: https://fieldriskos.com/field-debrief

Field Debrief is produced by Field Risk Systems LLC, the company behind Field Risk OS, The Operating System for Expedition Programs.

Show Notes: https://fieldriskos.com/field-debrief/field-debrief-episode-1-airblue-flight-202

On July 28, 2010, Airblue Flight 202 departed Karachi for Islamabad with 152 people on board. The aircraft for this routine domestic flight was a modern, airworthy Airbus A321 and both pilots were fully qualified. Less than two hours later, it was flown into the Margalla Hills north of Islamabad with the loss of all lives on board.

The investigation found no mechanical breakdown of the aircraft, but rather, a human factors breakdown in the cockpit: a captain who spent the flight berating his first officer before flying an approach he improvised on the spot, and a first officer who saw what was going wrong but could not find a way to stop it. The report called it a classic failure of Crew Resource Management (CRM).

In this first episode of the Field Debrief podcast, I am joined by risk management expert Stuart Slay to discuss what happened on Flight 202, and what it means for those of us who take people into the field: guides, trip leaders, program directors, and outdoor educators.

Content note: all 152 people aboard Flight 202 lost their lives.

• The experience gap in the cockpit: a captain near retirement with 25,000 hours, a younger, much less experienced first officer, and how that dynamic affects how teams work together.
• What an hour of berating did to the team, and the water the first officer was swimming in when the critical moments came.
• Hierarchy in the field: role clarity, single point accountability, and asserting your care as an organization, including a river near miss where a co-instructor knew it was a bad idea and did not say anything.
• Local rationality versus following what is written: the tension between trusting judgment in the moment and holding the line on protocols.
• "Let him say whatever he wants to say" - the captain's response to air traffic control, summit fever, and the competitor's flight that managed to land.
• The PACE escalation continuum (Probe, Alert, Challenge, Emergency), and how the avalanche industry trains people to narrate what they see and build a shared brain.
• Culture in aviation: power distance, who the controls are designed for, and why Outliers' analysis of national culture did not go deep enough.
• What to take into your next staff training

Stuart Slay is the founder of Slay Risk, a consulting and coaching practice that helps schools and outdoor programs see risk clearly and manage it together. He is the past chair of the Wilderness Risk Management Conference (WRMC), led National Risk and Safety at the Student Conservation Association, spent a decade building an outdoor education program in Korea, and has published original research on culture and risk management in outdoor programs. Before that he was a ski patroller, guide, and avalanche forecaster in California and the Andes, and a field instructor with Outward Bound. He is based in Taipei and works with programs throughout Asia and North America.