How about a cold open? That's how this conversation starts with Justin Kiley (pronounced KEE-lay), where we talk about his Filipino heritage, specifically the Igorot tribe, how that flavors his experience with shame personally, given his family and cultural background, the complexities of church hurt, and how he found a healing community and authentic connection in Portland, Oregon.

Justin describes different degrees of church hurt, from over-sensitivity to malicious abuse and trauma. Kiley emphasizes that the terms "abuse" and "trauma" are often used too loosely and without quantification, causing quite a lot of confusion. He also mentions the added complexity of deconstruction and faith wrestling.

For more background and context, this connection with Justin happened because our season 5 co-host Hannah Lee Sandoval dug into a conversation for the entire duration of a 2.5-hour flight chatting about all things mental health and faith.

• Connect with Justin Kiley at instagram.com/justintroy_

• "The Anxious Generation" by Jonathan Haidt https://amzn.to/4cUICFI