Finding Nature

This week on the show I have the sister and brother duo Emily and Jack Rowland. Individually Emily and Jack are up to vital work across ocean conservation, plastics eradication, food system revitalisation and equitable health care outcomes, but together they create a dynamic and diverse way of being and doing in the world that I wanted to bring onto the show. One thing I’m conscious of with this show is the age of the guests that I have on - leaning towards speaking with and learning from experts in the middle or second halves of their careers who’ve worked for decades in their field. Young people - both on this show and in just about every other forum - are usually not thought about for inclusion or simply dismissed as too idealistic, too naive and with too little real world experience to offer valuable insights and lessons. In a world where most things seems to be falling apart, perhaps leaning on that established order is a mistake in itself. More of what’s been occurring probably means more of what we’ve got now.

In a week where a treacherous decision to approve a carbon bomb project out til 2070 was followed up by a doomish explanation of the future we’re sleepwalking into, the role and necessity of including young people’s voices feels essential. Emily and Jack are both in their early 20s, but combine diverse lived experiences across multiple countries with their ongoing studies and many and varied community and organisational commitments to offer a perspective on where young people today are, what motivates them, how they differ from those who’ve come before them but also the base human instincts to belong, to participate and to be of service.

Emily’s environmental advocacy is born from a deep connection to place and country. She’s involved with organisations like Regen Sydney and Who Does the Dishes, and the experiences she had growing up in both Sydney and Las Vegas have shaped her approach to story telling, showing up and seeking change. For Jack, a life changing health diagnosis at 12 years of age changed everything for him, and over time as he’s come to reckon with the realities of that diagnosis and he’s developed a passion and capability in connecting one person’s health and wellbeing into a broader system that can bias, discriminate against and exclude many.

This was such an incredibly valuable conversation for me. When was the last time I’d sat down with a couple of younger people and really spoke with and listened to them? Embarrassingly, I can’t remember. Their vibrancy and optimism was evident, still to be tarnished or harmed repetitively by a system that seems intent on maintaining vested interests and enabling captured power dynamics. In a week when the national climate risk assessment was released, and I’ve been thinking a lot about the world I’ve brought my own child into, young people not only deserve but need to be included in the way decisions are made. Emily and Jack are examples of the transformative potential of new perspectives, fresh thinking and yet to become bitter and twisted people.

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Today on the show I have Elaine Johnson - a leading landowner advocate and environment and climate lawyer who’s led some of the most consequential cases against fossil fuel expansion in this state. Her work in and with communities who are opposing the deleterious local impacts of more pollution and being able to frame that within a larger climate change debate is truly remarkable and vital work. In light of the International Court of Justice’s advisory opinion in July regarding the new considerations governments are now supposed to take regarding fossil fuel projects whether that’s Greenfield approvals or expanding existing sites, there is greater optimism and hope that the law can become an effective tool in the fight against vested polluters and captured governments. And let’s not forget that Australia was one of a few nations who opposed this case along with the USA, China and Saudi Arabia, while our government has also fought domestically against the idea it has a duty of care to both young people and Torres Strait Islanders who will be most affected by a new climate reality or already are losing Country and Culture to rising seas and bigger storms.

Elaine is on the show to get into many areas of legal practice and strategy regarding the work she’s done and to offer insights into the trajectory of how courts will and could rule for healthier and more just futures. The rapid escalation in climate litigation cases globally and here in Australia is a phenomenon I wanted to better understand, and why Australia is one of the leading innovators in this domain. I also wanted to explore and understand the specific cases and implications of different cases Elaine has worked on, and where this may and hopefully is going.

I really do mean it when I say that I think law is the most innovative part of the climate action system at the moment, and Elaine and her team are at the centre of that in this country. To learn more about Elaine’s work, head to Johnson Legal and follow her on LinkedIn. 

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Today’s episode is a different one and coincides wth the beginning of Spring here in the Southern Hemisphere. Spring is a time of renewal, rebirth and new beginnings. From ecosystems and landscapes bursting with new life to warmer days and longer daylight hours, the potential of spring rings eternal. I wanted to do this as so many guests have spoken about pivotal moments in their lives that represent these periods of new growth and changed trajectories, and I wanted to bring that to you today to remind us all that we don’t need to wait til January 1, or worse, a state of desperation to make changes in our life. Change and action are available to all of us right now.

Personally I’m trying to use this spring as a launching pad for what I’m doing with Finding Nature - from building out some programs for organisations through to the project of bringing this show to video. Beyond that though, I’m hoping to use these four months before the end of the year as a period of transition and growth in other aspects of my life from health and movement to finance and money to relationships and fatherhood. I was reminded putting this together - and hopefully you are too - that the ability to learn from others who’ve gone through their own experiences are all around us to relate to, to learn from and hopefully to take suggestions and action into our own lives.

I really enjoyed going into the show catalogue and putting this together. Every guest today I learnt from the first time around and I have again, and I hope you find something in this episode to help you with what you’re trying to get done and move towards at the moment. If you enjoy any of the snippets from this show, I’ve linked all of the full episodes in the show notes so you can go listen to the whole thing from there.

Discovering Real Meaning In The Dismantling: Nadya Hutagalung Wants You To Find Contentment

Reaching for What's Possible - Emma Pocock's Vision for Sport as a Vehicle for Change

Building and Maintaining A Body To Live, Work & Play In with Dr John Panagopoulos

Internal Integration, External Actualisation - Mark Rowland is Here Now

Tammi Miller Will See You Now: Work Addiction, Identity and The Perils of Pursuing It All

Start Again - Ben Rennie Wants You to Know It's Your Time to Build Creative Confidence and Be The Person You Dream of Being

Kaylene Langford Wants You To Start Now - The Power of Creation and Owning Your Freedom

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I’m joined on the show today by Surya Deva. He’s a Professor at the Macquarie Law School, where he’s also the Director of the Environmental Law Research Centre and Business & Human Rights Justice Lab. Surya is also part way through his first term period as the UN Special Rapporteur on the Right to Development. He’s served as a member of the UN’s Working Group on Business and Human Rights, he’s published extensively and advised UN agencies, governments, corporations, trade union and civil society organisations.

I’ve been hoping to get Surya on for most of the year after coming across his work on the rights of children and future generations. He has made an eloquent case for the way decisions today could and probably should be accounting for the future. This resonated strongly as someone who works in climate adaptation on a day to day basis and the way choices can be expanded or limited by the constraints of time in decision making. If we limit thinking to only this quarter or this year to work on a topic as broad and complex as climate adaptation, then the types of activities that are deliverable are likely narrow and inadequate structurally. By extending the time by which action could be taken - ten years, fifty years, five hundred years, that creates new frames and perspectives, making what previously seemed implausible plausible and helps focus action in that next quarter or year in a bigger and more meaningful context. Surya’s work helped to crystallise some of my thinking, and the way he is able to describe and make practical decision making in multi-faceted, interconnected contexts has been valuable.

We chat about a lot here, but sitting at the heart of our conversation is Surya’s reimagined vision for the role of the right to development, and his perspectives on a planet-centred, relationship-driven world where we see ourselves as a part of something, not seperate to it. We chat about his critiques of voluntary human rights due diligence in corporate settings, the role of remediation and transformation as strategic pillars of change and his views on mindsets, leadership and what we need next to make some big shifts in our society.

I have enormous regard for Surya, his work and the way he approaches it. I always learn so much spending time with him, and I hope that’s what you get today.

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John Vaillant is today’s guest, and this was a very special conversation that sat within a few days of spending a lot of time together and riffing on everything from new types of fires to debating the merits and qualities of RM Williams or Blundstone boots. John is a renowned author and writer, who for over thirty years has plied his trade in book writing and journalism. His narrative non fiction book The Tiger was an international best seller and included in GQ’s 50 best books of the 21st century. Almost all of our conversation today though centres on his most recent book, Fire Weather: A True Story from a Hotter World. It’s one of the very best books I’ve ever read, but don’t take it from me - Fire Weather won a Baillie Gifford Prize for Non-Fiction, was nominated for a Pulitzer Prize, while it was named one of the best books of 2023 by the New York Times, The Washington Post, The New Yorker, TIME, National Public Radio, Slate, and Smithsonian.

John was recently in town for a relatively short tour and I had the great pleasure of meeting him, hanging out and introducing him to a group of financial service employees too. As so much of the Northern Hemisphere continues to burn in yet another record breaking fire season, John’s recollection of a gigantic fire in Fort McMurray in northern Canada in 2016 brings to life the horror and terror of what bigger, faster, more powerful and frankly, just plain new, fire systems mean for our and the planet’s future. Through this book John has found himself a popular go-to for media outlets around the world who are looking to better understand what record breaking after unprecedented fire means, how they form and where we’re headed.

Here in Australia we are sadly all too familiar with the devastating effects of massive fires - but what if that is just the beginning of what is to come? How can we imagine a fire season worse than 2019/20? If wealthy parts of Los Angeles can be wiped off the map, where’s safe? If the climate is changing everywhere to create new conditions for fire, then perhaps we need to prepare ourselves for not just imagery, but experiences anywhere that look like the pages from the Book of Revelation. This is truly horrifying stuff. I can’t imagine the experience of being in or around the type of fire John chronicles in Canada and what we continue to see just about everywhere. But that’s part of John’s message - we need to work out how to not only imagine the unimaginable, but prepare for it.

John’s gift is in story telling. Be careful what you wish for though, bringing someone of John’s calibre to the realities of a changing climate, what’s already happened and where we’re headed may be too much to contemplate. 

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Speaking of the best in the business, today’s guest is Kenneth Roth, a global icon of the human rights movement who perhaps more than just anybody else on this planet has shaped and influenced the defence and promotion of human rights everywhere. Ken was the Executive Director of Human Rights Watch from 1993 when the organisation had around 50 staff until he stepped down from this post thirty years later with over 500 people in the team and located in over 100 countries. Ken is a doyen of human rights work, and for over thirty years he and his team have taken meaningful action around the world to intervene on violations people and communities experienced, as well as spearheaded systemic reform at the United Nations and in many legislatures around the world.

Ken joined the show as part of his tour to Australia to speak about his remarkable book Righting Wrongs; Three Decades on the Front Lines Battling Abusive Governments. It’s part memoir, part historical account of the human rights movement, and part change making instructional. It’s a must read for any and all people out there who are looking to engage with problems and harms and to develop strategies and tactics in response. It outlines his theory of change and the role of shame, alliance building and deep investigatory undertakings to pinpoint and surface where and how people are being harmed and what could be done to mitigate and remediate these.

Ken’s trip coincides with a moment of great societal and moral uncertainty - from the Russia Ukraine war, Israel’s ongoing campaign in Gaza, a tumultuous US political context and raging civil war and humanitarian crisis in Sudan. Taking away the legalistic jargon and think tank pontificating, Ken outlines how he and Human Rights Watch have for decades worked to right the wrongs people experience as the result of government and organisational decisions.

This chat covers a lot of ground - from the origins and evolution of Human Rights Watch, Ken’s observations and experiences of working in and affecting change in China, the US, Israel and many other countries, war crimes and torture, business and human rights, climate change and human rights, while we finish on the lessons and suggestions for those of us who do this work without end no matter the title or level.

What’s left to say about Ken that hasn’t been said? I really hope you enjoy listening to us chat and take away as much as I did.

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Jimmy Stanton-Cooke is on the show this week, and I am so pleased to be bringing you this chat. Already Jimmy has lived the life of a vagabond, a ratbag and a pioneer as well as an agricultural science high school teacher. Few are like him, and to have him on the show today was a long held aspiration and a chance to get beyond the high energy public persona who lived without half of his beard for seven years. Jimmy is certainly a man of infinite vitality and action, but underneath that is a caring, seeking and sensitive man, and this conversation felt special for being able to connect at a far deeper level than what a couple of blokes usually do.

Jimmy is half the face, half the creator and half the brains behind HalfCut - an organisation I deeply believe in, am currently raising funds to support and am also a board director on. Jimmy and his partner Jess have grown HalfCut from a moment of desperation into an enterprise that is rejuvenating Country and Culture, but more than that, is upending the power dynamic between white and blak. HalfCut runs on the decisions of those it fundraises and builds new financial models for - like Jimmy and his partner Jess, HalfCut is humble at its core.

This chat gets into the mechanics and origins of HalfCut - what it does now and how it does it. Beyond that though this chat is about seeking purpose, connecting to self and others and finding something deep inside. Jimmy opens up in a way I didn’t expect but was humbled to be present for. Beyond the surface of all of our individual work in seeking change and being of impact lies deep care, and stories of why that care is so extinguishable despite the barriers and challenges we all face in going about our efforts to being agents of change. Jimmy opens up a lot here and it was a privilege to hold space for something a couple of boys from Sydney’s northern suburbs don’t do a lot, let alone with microphones in front of us.

Jimmy is seeking, and he doesn’t do things by half.

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Andy Marlow is on the show today. He’s one of Australia’s most credentialed and awarded architects and passivhaus designers, and has built a career on the forefront of imagining, designing and creating better places for people who breathe. Andy’s career has spanned custom design and built projects on single homes to large commercial projects to civic centre and entire urban renewal projects. There aren’t many who’ve seen as many different projects and contexts than Andy over the last three decades, and who’s delivered such a diversity of work with a simple goal in mind - the lowest possible environmental impact for the greatest amount of human benefit.

A lot of my days are spent thinking about and trying to decipher the state of housing in this country and its relationship to net zero ambitions and as places of refuge and safety from an increasingly volatile and dangerous climate. I saw that Andy had presented at the latest Australian PassivHaus Conference with - in his words - a rant about the Australian housing market - and I wanted to get him on to get into his thinking in more detail. I knew of Andy’s work through our mutual friend Chris Nunn’s passivhaus so was confident he’d have plenty to offer, and he sure did. His insights and perspectives from a career on the frontline of better housing are invaluable. He makes clear what’s obviously wrong in Australia’s housing market - weak enforcement, long lasting legacy issues from defects, a confusing regulatory framework - but Andy also helped me better appreciate the dynamics of a volume builder market that seems to serve almost nobody, the wafer thin margins throughout the industry that imperil all projects and people, and the huge costs of ignoring housing as a health topic. We also get into the five principles of passivhaus, its origins, myths, benefits and progress.

More than anything though this is a chat about what we all know needs to change - the housing system from the ground up. From being increasingly inaccessible and unaffordable, the gaps between the present state and what’s appropriate for health, comfort, decarbonisation and protection from a changing climate, to the somehow radical idea that governments should be active stewards over ensuring quality housing is upheld as a basic human right that all people should feel secure in. Andy has a clear diagnosis as well as guidance and suggestions on what we can all do and what needs to occur structurally to rectify this. 40 years to get into this dynamic won’t be solved overnight, but some heavy lifting is needed sooner rather than later to begin unpicking the mess we’re in now.

Andy’s understanding of how housing in this country works - and doesn’t - is relevant to us all. We need new visions, practices and ambitions for how we live, and Andy has them.

Check out Andy's work at Envirotecture. 

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Alexander Pui returns to the show today to chat all things climate science, climate risks and climate impacts. Alex is an old colleague who’s made an indelible mark on my career and it’s a pleasure to have him back while he’s in town escaping Tokyo’s suffering heat. Alex has worked across academia, reinsurance, insurance, banking, consulting and technology, is an adjunct fellow at the university of New South Wales’ climate change research centre, a visiting scholar at Kyushu university and completed his phd in applied statistics and flood risk assessment. There are few I’ve met who are as knowledgable about the intersecting worlds of complex climate science, the attitudes and actions of businesses and the gaps between what needs to be done and what is being done.

I wanted to get Alex back on the show to get into some of the detail about what has been happening in the world of climate science over the last 12 months. Unprecedented event after unprecedented event have been occurring globally, but beyond the factoids of headlines and social media skimming, I wanted to explore and better understand the state of the science and what that means for all of us.

In this episode we do just that, chatting about his work in seeking to understand the huge leap in global atmospheric temperatures since June 2023, the intersection of economic transition and the physical realities of a new climate, the attitudes of barely committed corporates stepping back from not-nearly enough commitments and the idea and role of micro adaptations to withstand the worst effects when the music stops.

Anytime I get into the weeds of the science of climate change I am in both awe and terror. I came away from speaking with Alex both of those, his expertise and clarity are a rare combination. I hope you take something from this.

Til next time, thanks for listening.

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Daniel Principe is today’s guest, and this is a conversation I’ve been wanting to have for the entire year, so I’m very pleased to be bringing him onto the show and into your earbuds. I can’t overstate just how important and serious the work that Dan does visiting schools day in day out to engage mostly boys on topics of masculinity, responsibility, pornography, identity and countering the onslaught of toxic and unhealthy messages an unfilled and unregulated information system that kids today are exposed to. Dan has spoken in front of 76,000 school kids - 53,000 of which are boys, over 8000 educators and in more than 300 schools all over the country. His work led him to being nominated as a NSW Australian of the Year this year, and he is regularly appearing on TV, radio, podcasts and written media, with appearances on Channel 9 and ABC in just the last fortnight.

As someone who’s experienced much of what Dan chats with kids around - bullying, peer pressure, risk aggressive behaviours and the power of other people’s opinions - I have wanted to chat to Dan properly all year, so to have him on the show and to bring his message to this audience is a genuine pleasure and part of my own efforts to contribute to conversations about healthy behaviours and healthy relationships.

Dan and I chat about his experiences in schools, the experiences of parents usually on the Back foot due to our and other government’s reticence to do anything about the harms of social media, gambling and porn on every device everywhere, the poisonous influence of social media as a super-charged purveyor of false realities and harmful modelling, our own experiences as kids and adults making sense of our own identities, pain as the only instigator of meaningful and long lasting change and the role of role models. The necessity to support boys in how they develop, grow and evolve is a matter of immense societal importance. Unwell men are more violent, more aggressive, more harmful, more at risk and more likely to become perpetrators of all forms of crime and abuse. Resisting and countering this convenient - requiring time, effort, perseverance, compassion, curiosity and humility, and as a man who’s lived through these ages and has firsthand experience of how treacherous a period adolescence can be without appropriate guardrails and help, I’ve seen and experienced how it can all go wrong not only for the individual but those around them. As a parent to a boy, I need this help myself.

Dan is easy to find online and I highly recommend going and watching the episode of Compass on ABC titled Hijacking Adolescence for more of him and to hear the stories and experiences of students, parents and teachers. To learn more about his work head to his website and follow him on instagram.

Dan’s work is vital. I’m richer for his presence in my life, and I hope you take something from this no matter if you’re a parent, a colleague, a partner or a friend.

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