When we think of occult, shamanic, or mystical beings, we tend to think in terms of spiritual abstraction, dissociated from the material world. But the occult simply means the hidden — the invisible world, whose effects on our fortune and health are real, even when the origins of their symptoms can't be detected with the naked eye. Long before the microscope, our ancestors were in relationship with that world: through ritual, altered states, the superstitions they hold, and the stories they told. 

In this conversation, two poet-philosophers compare notes on how the imagination mediates between microbiological cultures and human culture — how the interface of myth, folklore, and story lend form to a realm that is invisible, but physical. 

From fermentation to mythic mentation, this invisible world is not merely psychic or material in nature—it is meta-real. 

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