For Seekers by Seekers

Gita 4/25 Slokas 2.18, 19

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What travels after death? Soul (Atma) does not travel anywhere because no space, time, object constraints.

Is body not important? There are actors, sportspersons who take extreme care of their bodies - how should we interpret it?

What does unknowable mean? Why can't we understand Atma with the usual organs of perception?

Atma is Aprameya:Unknowable through known sense organs of perception because, it is beyond the six ways knowledge happens - pratyaksh (direct), paroksha (inference), anupalabdi (absence), upaman (comparision), arthapatthi (data analysis), shabda (sruti/vedas).

How does Vedas describe Atma

Neti-Neti method, paradoxical statements, inference, silence.

We also discuss what it means when people say 'Atma'. For some it could be body, mind, intellect, ego....

Gita GD 4/18/2021 2.16, 17

There are a few slokas which were tough for Ganesha when Vyasa was telling, so Ganesha had to think before writing. These are some of those tough slokas.

Atma is 'sat' and rest is 'asat' - Om Tat Sat.

Sat: Not limited by space, time, object limitations.

Asat: Exact opposite of Sat (child of a barren women, flowers in sky...)

Mithya: You can experience it but does not have independent experience, hence limited by space, time, objects.

Reality ALWAYS exist; mithya NEVER existed

Any Experience - REALITY + APPEARANCE.

Need objects, shapes and forms to experience existence (IS'ness)

If we understand 2.16 then fear of death goes away.

Is space really dark? No. It is light everywhere but needs a reflecting medium. Likewise, EXISTENCE needs a medium - mind & body to reflect it.

From a meta physical perspective: A subtler element is present in a grosser element.

Consciousness is more subtler than space - Dhaturuttamah

Consciousness: Space - air - fire - water - earth

When we identify with body, space exists...when we don't space or anything else does not exist.

What is permanent cannot get revealed; but it manifests through a medium.

Undying means, unborn as well! If Consciousness is born, then somebody has to be conscious of Consciousness being born.

God was bored and he created playmates - the world exists because of that!

Understanding this revelation about who we are helps us live our lives in a very different way - improves self-esteem, conquer fear, ability to relate to others better, joyful. However sometimes it is difficult to apply the knowledge in transactional world. Hear the debate amongst the seekers as to how it can be applied - each one sharing their own unique perspective. 

For more, check out the blog: https://happilyoga.com/2021/04/20/50664/

Gita GD Discussions 4/11/2021, Slokas 2.14, 2.15

Millions of experiences are collapsed to five inputs + mind. Perceiving these as good/bad/pleasant/unpleasant is based on mind. We need to develop titiksha. Titiksha - forebearance; strength. Titiksha also is a result of our prarabdh.

Stories about non-retorting snake & mudslinging match with pigs shows the need to understand correctly and acting rightly according to nature. These stories highlight how to understand titiksha correctly.

Thirukkural #301: controlling anger can be done in 3 places: with people who are equal, with people who are powerful, with people who are weaker. It is the third category that is important discipline. Other two are no brainer - we automatically control our anger!

One need not be angry in mind - even if roles demand anger, do the duty (like a policeman) but without being affected.

Discussion on pain, suffering, happiness & sadness:

We can be in pain, but suffering is optional. People suffer when they don't understand Vedantic concept of Atma, identity of one's true Self.

How should one go about pain & suffering? Does suffering have a role? Purpose?

- Acceptance or Prarabda? 

- Take action - give tit for tat?

- Delegate to God

- Settle score?

- Is this a case of mistaken identity?

Settling scores does not work. My karma is mine and other's karma is others.

Sama-Dana-Bheda-Danda has to be employed like Rama did.

Maintaining equipoise is the goal. Eventually this is what is going to solve the topical problems:

- yoga, samatvam, stitapragya, stay with one's true nature.

- This state is our nature! Anger, greed and others take away from this state. So, the question is how can we prevent 2KLM3 and related aspects?

How does Sukh lead to Dukh: If sukh can come from an external object then it can also lead to dukh, We want the sukh it to continue, we fear losing it, leads to attachment to that sukh...so best not to be elated with sukh and depressed when dukh.

...It can also make us arrogant, proud...

The same attitude is applicable at body, mind, intellect levels - heat/cold, pleasure/pain, praise/criticism.

Yoga, Karma or Bhakti or Jnana?

Ashtanga yoga comes from the practical side and Upanishads come from theoretical side - both are needed.

Known ->Uknown and Unknown -> Known: Both are valid paths.

4% is theory; 16% is upasana and 80% is dharma: Dharma is what we need to focus on in our daily life!

Other:

Dhira word means intelligence, buddhi, wisdom and one who applies the wisdom of knowledge of Atma to overcome sufferings.

Rudyard Kipling's IF poem seems to be a rough translation of Bhagavad Gita's concepts.

In this GD, Bhagavan SriKrishna gives the solution to the fundamental problem of humankind.

The various topical problems we have (related to health, wealth, relationships, ups & downs we face) all have a root cause in ignorance. The ignorance is OUR FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM. When the fundamental problem is solved, topical problems automatically resolve!

Srikrishna addresses the 'summary of the solution'

What is the source of grief? How does Bhagavan go about stating it is an 'illegitimate problem' that Arjuna has.

How does Bhagavan connect that the grief is the outcome of Arjuna's ignorance? Why should we not grieve for anyone - living or dead?

How does Bhagavan explain Atma? The soul? What was our reaction when we first heard about who we truly were? Was it incredulous? Or ridiculous?

Why do we fear death when we don't fear everyday? Every new day /new moment already by definition indicates the 'previous day/moment' has died....likewise our body /mind is constantly 'dying' to give rise to new body/mind......If we can accept this without any qualms, why are we fearful of death? Isn't it the same as acquiring a new body?

How is the human mind constructed? How can we have different perspective to the same situation - physical, emotional, intellectual and spiritual? Which one should we adopt? Why we are not able to adopt a spiritual attitude?

Do we have freewill? Some beautiful examples related explain that we indeed have freewill.

In this group discussion, we try to assess Arjuna's mental state and understand the psychological changes that goes on in his mind. We also reflect on our own context in the modern times and find that there are several commonalities:

- We talk a lot when we are confused, in the hope that we arrive at a right solution to the problem.

- We do get confused with what is right, wrong

Few observations we make:

- Duryodhana talks out of fear & insecurity

- Arjuna talks out of delusion

We agreed that we all have to face our problems head-on AND still ask for help.

We also discuss what should be our attitude when we listen to someone going through an emotional turmoil. At what point we have to talk? We should learn from Krishna, who is silent till Arjuna empties his emotions.

We discuss how one's ego intervenes in decisions. Arjuna's emotional outburst seem to have rested on his concerns for himself (although he talks magananimously!) while Bheeshma and Drona would not have hesitated to kill Arjuna as it was their duty being on the Kaurava side. We also discuss how one can expand the sense of ego.

There is discussion on the 'subjective' and 'objective' personalities and how this is important to understand the 'solution' offered by Gita to our problems.

We also talk of 'caste' system and 'intermingling' of castes as an outcome of war and the consequent decline in family values.

Finally, it is clear that Arjuna's problem in the battlefield few thousands of years ago is NO DIFFERENT than our problems of modern times. Therefore, the solution that was offered to him may also be applicable to us!

Arjuna opens up a floodgate of emotions.

He is anxious for victory in battle and he got into a neurosis - fear of death of his clan & fear of losing.

Arjuna tries hard to get Krishna to acknowledge and we discuss why Krishna ignores him - LISTEN & SILENT are anagrams and Krishna is SILENT and LISTENing. He does not teach as yet.

Arjuna gives many arguments - wants the kingdom, does not want it if his relatives are dead, death of menfolk means womenfolk going astray, causing admixture of classes, letting Dharma - or rightful living go down.

Like Arjuna, as we verbalize our feelings, we will also notice that we will contradict ourselves. This is a big learning for us. Because we are always operating in 'misplaced detachment' or 'wrong vairagyam' - for the wrong reasons.

There is a symbolism of Krishna and Arjuna. Krishna is the Supreme Soul in ourselves and Arjuna is our Ego (Individual Self). When our Ego listens to the Supreme Soul, our actions become aligned with the universe.

We also discuss 'subjective self' and 'objective self': Subjective self is the true self which we are trying to discover but the sad fact is that we are always in the 'objective self' mode where our mind is attached to objects, people, situations, events. This attachment is the one that causes us grief.

Are we insignificant in the entire universe? There are two views - and listen to the contrarian view that the 'universe' is 'contained' in us - so, we are not insignificant.

A lot of discussions got triggered by a new seeker's two questions:

1. 'WHAT IS YOUR DUTY?'

2. HOW DOES ONE BALANCE OUR DAILY LIFE WITH SCRIPTURAL INSIGHTS?

Arjuna duty was to fight for dharma; in our life we need to evaluate our roles to find out what our duties are; our duty is to be human - and to truly understand what being human means. Our dharma, according to Swami Vivekananda is to manifest our own divinity and help others manifest their divinity. Divinity means - the essential intrinsic nature of humans, like heat being intrinsic to fire.

How do we balance doing right by oneself and doing right for the job, parents etc? Are we true to ourself? How do we reconcile? What is religion? Is that even relevant?

The group shares to the new seeker their insights on how these scriptural learnings helped them:

- To know 'who am I?' was a big aha moment for one

- We are able to connect the religion, manifesting divinity and our duty becomes to get rid of who we are not!

- There was a sense of true freedom

- We have experienced fearlessness in our life by understanding this knowledge

- We got rid of our anxiety

- Clarity in the roles & the corresponding right actions, right intentions behind those actions that are required for those roles.

- Learning of the scriptures is experiential and the context becomes clearer - for example, why balance, who balances, what are we balancing - these Q's get answered.

- Freedom from guilt

- The study and seeking is a journey to understand our roles, duties and how might one best perform them. The Gita gives a nice framework - tools to help us figure out how can we go through this life in the right way.

First 17min: Practice of Gita Chanting before GD

We continue to discuss Arjuna's metamorphosis.

An external calamity impending - the fratricidal war that would wipe out the entire Kuru clan and friends like Yadavas, triggered a chain of thought in Arjuna.

Despite raring to fight the Kauravas for over 14 years - becoming determined to fight a Dharmic war, Arjuna experiences a change of mind. He suddenly exhibits 'pity' which is exactly not pity but some other emotion - perhaps a fear of death, or death of his loved ones garbed as pity.  He claims that he sees no good in killing kinsmen, does not desire victory, nor pleasures.

We discuss why this happens?

Is it that he confuses the 'rightful duty' as a warrior to 'my battle to win' and what if 'I don't win' or 'I win, killing all my kinsmen': So, suddenly a duty he was supposed to do, becomes ATTACHED with his sense of identity. Now, the sense of identity as a relative, as a society person confuses his sense of duty as a warrior. 

We also discuss that emotional mind decides for us most of the time and then we create logic to justify our decisions. This is what even Arjuna does!

In the modern context, we struggle with a bigger issue, unlike Arjuna. While Arjuna did not have any doubt regarding his abilities, and was only worried about the outcome of the war, we are vexed with both these worries - of our abilities as well as outcomes.

In summary, we acknowledge the relevance of the 'Arjuna disease' even in the modern conext - perhaps after atleast 5500 years after the Mahabharatha war took place.

Tumultous is the word we would use to describe Chapter 1 of Gita - Arjuna Vishaada Yoga.

Till sloka 28, it is mostly description of the battlefield - the external context that makes a chicken out of Arjuna, the great warrior.

Sloka 1 describes Dhritharashtra, the blind king's mindset. Blinded by his attachment to his 100 sons, he knows that Dharma will win, but hopes for his sons' victory.

External context /situations are presented to us to mature as an individual - so we will ask the question - why me? and Why only me?

Arjuna asked this.

But before we get there, we need to understand the external environment - the context before he rambles through his mind and the confusion to the Bhagawan.

Namaste!

My name is Rajesh Sengamedu I am a seeker, yoga & meditation practitioner

Bhagavad Gita has inspirations to change our life. I want to share sloka 47 from Gita Chapter 2, to inspire us into action.

कर्मण्येवाधिकारस्ते मा फलेषु कदाचन |

A very, very popular, yet most misunderstood verse.

This sloka talks of the reality of roles, rights, responsibilities, results. In this, Bhagavan asks us to remember

- TO DO 1 Thing

- TO NOT DO 3 Things.

BG 2.47: You have a right to perform your prescribed duties, but you are not entitled to the fruits of your actions. Never consider yourself to be the cause of the results of your activities, nor be attached to inaction.

The universe is interconnected & interdependent entity each performing our roles.

Let us understand this better with the example of movies.

1. A hero’s right and responsibility are to do his part the best. No one else can do his role. Only he can and that is what he is supposed to be doing.

2. The movie producer is the beneficiary of the hero’s work. And, his right & responsibility is to pay the hero and other actors, director etc.

3. A movie succeeds or fails at the box office because of many factors – script, lead actors performance, director’s magic, timing and so many other factors. The hero obviously can’t stake the claim to the success or failure of the movie, because so many factors are involved

4. If a movie’s success seems to be dependent on so many factors, can the hero possibly become fatalistic and stop playing his role? Wouldn’t that be crazy?

Bhagavan Krishna is only asking us to do our roles well, remembering the benefits of our work is reaped by someone else. How the final results of our work turn out to be is not in our hands, but that should not make us lethargic or stop doing our jobs!

Hari Om!

­­­Namaste!

My name is Rajesh Sengamedu I am a seeker, yoga & meditation practitioner

Bhagavad Gita has inspirations to change our life.

Sloka 48 from Chapter 2 is how we can apply the wisdom of yoga in our daily life in every activity /work we do – build a China wall of detachment towards the results of our work while clinging fast /being totally attached to the work we must do!

योगस्थ: कुरु कर्माणि सङ्गं त्यक्त्वा धनञ्जय |

सिद्ध्यसिद्ध्यो: समो भूत्वा समत्वं योग उच्यते || 2.48||

BG 2.48: Be steadfast in the performance of your duty, O Arjun, abandoning attachment to success and failure. Such equanimity is called Yog.

If you want to understand what ‘attachment to duty/work is’ with ‘detachment to results’ - watch the movie, Schindler’s List. Oskar Schindler, a sharp German businessman creates many businesses, builds factories, spends his entire fortune, bribes Nazi officers in his one focused attempt of saving 850 Jews from going into Auschwitz concentration camp.

He has no clue if his plans will work well or be caught by Nazis but he goes ahead with meticulous plans, and never ever worrying about the outcomes.

Similarly, Bhagavan Krishna asks us to let go of attachment to results and do our duties associated with various roles with an attitude of gaining spiritually – rather than materially. Gaining spiritually is nothing but cultivating a mindset that is not elated at successes or depressed at failures of our efforts.

This mindset – the balance, is called as yoga.

Hari Om!