Formation with John Ortberg

What if understanding the ancient world could change the way you read Genesis?

In this episode of Footnotes, Jackson Lane sits down with John Ortberg to revisit John's conversation with Old Testament scholar Tremper Longman III. Together, they explore how understanding biblical genre, ancient culture, and the questions Scripture was originally addressing can deepen our understanding of the Bible today.

John shares how discovering other ancient Near Eastern creation and flood stories initially threatened his faith. Over time, he came to see how God used familiar images and stories to communicate something radically different about who God is.

They also tackle one of the most debated questions in Genesis: Did the serpent actually speak? John explains why he believes God could make a snake talk, while questioning whether the writer of Genesis intended the story to be read as a literal historical account.

The conversation moves from creation and biblical interpretation to the central claims of Christian faith, the meaning of Israel's identity as God's chosen people, and what Abraham's calling reveals about God's purposes for the world.

In This Episode

• How discovering other ancient flood stories challenged and eventually strengthened John's faith

• What Tremper Longman means when he says, “Genre triggers reading strategy”

• Why Genesis describes the sun appearing on the fourth day of creation

• How ancient creation stories help us understand what makes Genesis distinctive

• Whether the serpent in Genesis was intended to be understood literally

• Why disagreements about biblical interpretation should be distinguished from Christianity's central claims

• What it means for Israel to be God's chosen people

• Why Abraham was chosen to bring blessing to all peoples

Resources Mentioned

• The Lost World of Adam and Eve by John H. Walton

• The Epic of Gilgamesh

• Formation Podcast EP002, John's original conversation with Tremper Longman III

About Footnotes

Footnotes is the conversation after the conversation. John Ortberg and Jackson Lane revisit Formation Podcast episodes to explore lingering questions, unpack important ideas, and go deeper into what it means to follow Jesus.

Listen to the full episode of Footnotes, FN002, and revisit the original conversation with Tremper Longman III on Formation Podcast.

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How are we to remain curious about God? John Ortberg and Jackson Lane return to Formation’s debut conversation with Tyler Staton for the first installment of Footnotes, a new post-show where we get to examine John’s thoughts after each episode. 

Tyler’s sincerity in Formation episode 001 led John to examine his own life: his relationship with humor, transcendence, and even marriage. Listen for a conversation about keeping wonder alive, what marriage reveals in us, and bringing our real desires and doubts to God.

Footnotes is Formation’s post-show, where John and Jackson revisit the ideas and questions raised in the main podcast. FN001 follows How God Gets Our Attention & the Pace of Formation ft. Tyler Staton | EP001 and includes excerpts from that conversation. Tyler’s reflections provide the starting point; John and Jackson explore what stayed with them and where those ideas lead in ordinary life.

• How learning can become worship, and why knowing the expected answers about God can crowd out curiosity, openness, and wonder
• What Tyler’s black bear encounter reveals about transcendence, and why John connects the loss of that sense of reality with a deeper loss of meaning
• Dallas Willard’s understanding of a word as a spiritual entity, and how language allows us to share meaning even when we struggle to name what we experience
• Why marriage exposes withdrawal, anger, and defensiveness that other relationships may not, and what John wishes he had learned sooner about serving
• The difference between surrendering to God and making ourselves appear more surrendered than we are, especially when a prayer carries disappointment or doubt
• Eleanor Stump’s concept of “willed loneliness,” and how avoiding the work of self-awareness can keep us from the connection we want with God and other people

• Loving God with All Your Mind — Neal Plantinga
• Mere Christianity — C.S. Lewis
• A Secular Age — Charles Taylor
• Hearing God — Dallas Willard
• Wandering in Darkness: Narrative and the Problem of Suffering — Eleanor Stump

How God Gets Our Attention & the Pace of Formation ft. Tyler Staton | EP001

https://www.formationpodcast.com/ep001-tyler-staton/

Formation is a podcast that explores the science and soul of spiritual formation. Each episode brings together the ancient wisdom of the contemplative tradition and the best of modern research. John Ortberg sits down with some of the most rigorous and honest thinkers working at the intersection of faith and human flourishing for extended, unhurried conversations about how we are being shaped.

Website: www.formationpodcast.com

Newsletter: www.formationpodcast.com/subscribe

Socials: @formationjohn

If this conversation gave you something to think about, we'd be grateful if you shared it with someone else who thinks intentionally about the things that matter most.

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What if the most important thing you bring to work isn’t your résumé, your expertise, or even your ideas?

Ron Johnson helped transform Target, built the Apple Store alongside Steve Jobs, and later became CEO of JCPenney. Across a career spent reimagining some of the biggest names in retail, he came to believe that your most important contribution at work is something no résumé can capture: your inner voice. It’s the perspective you discover when you get still enough to realize what you actually believe.

In this conversation with John Ortberg, Ron talks about learning to hear that voice beneath all the others, what Steve Jobs taught him about honesty, and how success can make it harder to recognize what is actually driving you. He also reflects on the failure at JCPenney, the question his father asked that he couldn’t shake, and the words from Psalm 23 that met him in a season of isolation.

AMA OPPORTUNITY:

Leave us a review for a chance to ask John a question on an upcoming episode. To enter, follow the podcast, leave your review, take a screenshot of it, and email it over with your question to [email protected].

One question per person, screenshot required.

WHAT THIS CONVERSATION EXPLORES:

• Why Ron believes the most important thing you bring to work is your inner voice

• What Steve Jobs taught Ron about telling the truth as a form of kindness

• Why solitude matters when you’re trying to hear what you actually believe beneath all the voices around you

• How a garden changed the way Ron thought about leading people and helping them flourish

• The three-hour interview with Steve Jobs that changed the course of Ron’s life and eventually led to the Apple Store

• The ideas behind the Genius Bar and the Fifth Avenue Apple Store that never sleeps

• Why Ron left Apple for JCPenney, and the question his father asked him: “How much success do you need?”

• How failure, isolation, and “The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want” changed Ron’s relationship with ambition

RESOURCES MENTIONED:

• Shop Different: How Retail Revealed Apple’s Genius — Ron Johnson and Zander Nethercutt

• A Return to Love — Marianne Williamson

• The Different Drum: Community Making and Peace — M. Scott Peck

• When We Are Seen: How to Come Into Your Power–and Empower Others Along the Way — Denise Young

• My God and I: A Spiritual Memoir — Lewis Smedes

ABOUT FORMATION:

Formation is a podcast that explores the science and soul of spiritual formation. Each episode brings together the ancient wisdom of the contemplative tradition and the best of modern research. John Ortberg sits down with some of the most rigorous and honest thinkers working at the intersection of faith and human flourishing for extended, unhurried conversations about how we are being shaped. New episodes every other week, wherever you listen to podcasts.

CONNECT WITH FORMATION:

Website: www.formationpodcast.com

Newsletter: www.formationpodcast.com/subscribe

Socials: @formationjohn

If this conversation gave you something to think about, we’d be grateful if you shared it with someone else who thinks intentionally about the things that matter most.

Formation is produced by Become New, a community dedicated to helping you grow spiritually, one day at a time. Subscribe for daily teaching from John Ortberg at becomenew.com/subscribe.

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This year the Nicene Creed turns 1,700 years old, and Glenn Packiam thinks it might be the most important thing the modern church has forgotten how to use. In this conversation, John and Glenn talk about the difference between hope and comfort, how the ancient world considered hope a weakness, and why the Creed's insistence on saying "we believe" instead of "I believe" might be the most countercultural thing a Christian can do today.

ABOUT THE GUEST

Glenn Packiam is the Lead Pastor of Rockharbor Church in Costa Mesa, California, and a Senior Fellow at Barna Group. He is the author of several books, including his newest, What's a Christian, Anyway?, which explores how the Nicene Creed can guide a confused and fractured church back home.Leave us a review for a chance to ask John a question on an upcoming episode. To enter, follow the podcast, leave your review, take a screenshot of it, and email it over with your question to [email protected]. One question per person; screenshot required.

WHAT THIS CONVERSATION EXPLORES

Why the ancient Stoics considered hope a moral weakness, and why the resurrection flips that on its headThe difference between hope and comfort, and why John and Glenn think the church has confused the twoWhat the boat metaphor for faith reveals about setting down your oars without losing your place in the crewWhy the Creed says "we believe" instead of "I believe," and what that costs a culture built around personal validationWhy only 48 percent of people say they trust pastors, and how Glenn thinks the church should respondThe King Charles coronation story that reframes what it means to swear allegiance to JesusWhy "deconstruction" isn't really about doctrine, but about a whole story and communityGlenn's answer to the question, "What does Jesus see about the church that you don't?"

RESOURCES MENTIONED

• What’s a Christian, Anyway? — Glenn Packiam
• This Is Not the End — Glenn Packiam
• The Intentional Year — Glenn and Holly Packiam
• The Intentional Year Journal — Glenn and Holly Packiam
• The Divine Conspiracy — Dallas Willard
• The Denial of Death — Ernest Becker
• Reflections on the Psalms — C. S. Lewis
• Salvation by Allegiance Alone — Matthew Bates
• Tell It Slant — Eugene Peterson
• On Bullshit — Harry Frankfurt
• The Adult Hope Scale — C. R. Snyder

CONNECT WITH GLENN
glennpackiam.com

Formation is a podcast that explores the science and soul of spiritual formation. Each episode brings together the ancient wisdom of the contemplative tradition and the best of modern research. John Ortberg sits down with some of the most rigorous and honest thinkers working at the intersection of faith and human flourishing for extended, unhurried conversations about how we are being shaped. New episodes every other week, wherever you listen to podcasts.

Follow Formation at formationpodcast.com and @formationjohn.Formation is produced by Become New, a community dedicated to helping you grow spiritually, one day at a time. Subscribe for daily teaching from John Ortberg at becomenew.com/subscribe.

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What happens when the person managing everyone else's anxiety is the most anxious one in the room?

Steve Cuss joins John for a conversation that starts in a childhood home in Western Australia and ends up inside the emotional wiring of every leader, marriage, and church staff meeting. Steve talks candidly about growing up in a household run by unpredictable anger, the confidence he built on a foundation of fear, and the hospital chaplaincy that stripped all of it away.

What emerges is a working theology of anxiety: how false needs hijack good intentions, how reactivity spreads through a room sometimes before it's even known, and why the most important thing any leader can offer their people is a well self.

What this conversation explores

• How Steve's childhood shaped a lifelong pattern of enmeshment, and how confidence can be built entirely on top of fear
• What hospital chaplaincy taught Steve about false needs, and why the ones that feel most real in the moment are the most dangerous
• The difference between reactivity and response, and how to take your own pulse before walking into a hard room
• Edwin Friedman's idea of a differentiated self, and what it looks like to be close to someone without absorbing their anxiety
• Why every false need has its own gospel, and why none of them can ever deliver freedom, peace, or love
• How churches and leaders can offer differentiation instead of certainty in a polarized culture
• Why Steve calls a well self the greatest gift any Christian leader can offer

Resources mentioned

• Managing Leadership Anxiety by Steve Cuss
• The Expectation Gap by Steve Cuss
• A Failure of Nerve by Edwin Friedman
• Thomas Wingfold, Curate by George MacDonald
• Formation Podcast episode with Gary Haugen, referenced by Steve as a formative conversation

About Steve Cuss

Steve Cuss is a pastor and the founder of Capable Life, where he trains leaders to manage stress and improve relationships. He is also the author of Managing Leadership Anxiety and The Expectation Gap.

https://stevecusswords.com

AMA opportunity

Leave us a review for a chance to ask John a question on an upcoming episode. To enter, follow the podcast, leave your review, take a screenshot of it, and email it with your question to [email protected]. One question per person, screenshot required.

About Formation

Formation explores the science and soul of spiritual formation, bringing together the ancient wisdom of the contemplative tradition and the best of modern research. John Ortberg sits down with some of the most rigorous and honest thinkers working at the intersection of faith and human flourishing for extended, unhurried conversations about how we are being shaped. New episodes every other week.

https://formationpodcast.com

Would you do us a favor? Make sure you're following the podcast. (It helps the show reach more people.)

Since Formation launched, we've talked about giving our listeners the chance to have their questions answered by John. This is that episode. No guest this time, just John and Creative Director, Jackson, working through the questions you sent in when you left a review, on everything from predestination to spiritual abuse to what AI is doing to his own attention span.

Want your question answered for the next one? Leave us a review for a chance to ask John anything about spiritual formation or life with God. To enter, follow the podcast, leave your review, take a screenshot of it, and email it over with your question to [email protected]. One question per person; screenshot required.

WHAT THIS CONVERSATION EXPLORES

• How John reconciles predestination in Romans and Ephesians with passages that affirm God's desire for all to be saved
• Why God's omniscience doesn't mean God always chooses to know everything, and what that has to do with honoring our agency
• What historic Christian writers understood about the unconscious mind long before Freud made it popular
• Why the language of "spiritual formation" replaced "Christian education," and what that shift says about how people actually change
• The anxiety John has noticed in himself as AI makes more and more instantly possible
• What spiritual abuse actually looks like, and the difference between confession as a healthy spiritual practice and confession used as a tool of coercion
• How to keep trusting God when you can't control what happens to the people you love most
• John's advice for Christians who feel politically alienated from their own church
• Why John believes the local church and parachurch ministries cannot survive without each other
• A first look at John's next book, on living beyond a culture of contempt

RESOURCES MENTIONED

• Dynamics of Spiritual Formation, Richard Lovelace
• Dopamine Nation, Dr. Anna Lembke
• The Body Keeps the Score, Dr. Bessel van der Kolk
• Agnes Sanford
• Leanne Payne
• Tyler VanderWeele and the Human Flourishing Program at Harvard
• Joni and Friends
• Become New

Formation is a podcast that explores the science and soul of spiritual formation. Each episode brings together the ancient wisdom of the contemplative tradition and the best of modern research. John Ortberg sits down with some of the most rigorous and honest thinkers working at the intersection of faith and human flourishing for extended, unhurried conversations about how we are being shaped. New episodes every other week, wherever you listen to podcasts.

Follow Formation at formationpodcast.com and @formationjohn.

Formation is produced by Become New, a community dedicated to helping you grow spiritually, one day at a time. Subscribe for daily teaching from John Ortberg at becomenew.com/subscribe.

Would you do us a favor? Make sure you're following the podcast. (It helps the show reach more people.)

About the Guest

Kara Powell leads the Fuller Youth Institute as its Executive Director, where for more than twenty years her team has tracked how young people are changing across three generational cohorts, from Millennials to Gen Z to Gen Alpha. She holds a PhD in Practical Theology and has helped shape some of the most widely used research on the next generation.

AMA Opportunity

Leave us a review for a chance to ask John a question on an upcoming episode. To enter, follow the podcast, leave your review, take a screenshot of it, and email it over with your question to [email protected]. One question per person, screenshot required.

What This Conversation Explores

• What has mostly stayed the same about young people across two decades of research, and what's vastly different
• What Gen Alpha needs from adults, and how their faith formation is taking shape
• Whether the data points to a genuine revival among young people, or something more nuanced
• Screen time and what it’s doing to our kids
• Whether teens today take fewer risks than past generations
• What kind of intergenerational relationships Gen Alpha is actually looking for and how they’re a benefit to all
• How to have more formative conversations with the young people in your life (and the scripts to get you there)
• What it's like to study faith formation for a living, and how it has shaped Kara's own spiritual life
• Whether some of the anxiety adults feel about this generation is really about the adults' own viewpoints 
• How Kara is being formed personally 

Resources Mentioned

• Fuller Youth Institute: fulleryouthinstitute.org/subscribe
• The Anxious Generation by Jonathan Haidt
• Growing Young — Fuller Youth Institute
• Future Focused Church — Fuller Youth Institute
• Free Gen Alpha report — fulleryouthinstitute.org
• Like Dew Your Youth by Eugene Peterson
• Chap Clark — the 5-to-1 ratio
• Dallas Willard
• Dietrich Bonhoeffer — the "chief sinner" idea
• Dave Wang, Fuller Theological Seminary

About Formation

Formation is a podcast that explores the science and soul of spiritual formation. Each episode brings together the ancient wisdom of the contemplative tradition and the best of modern research. John Ortberg sits down with some of the most rigorous and honest thinkers working at the intersection of faith and human flourishing for extended, unhurried conversations about how we are being shaped. New episodes every other week, wherever you listen to podcasts.

Connect with Formation

formationpodcast.com
 @formationjohn

Formation is produced by Become New, a community dedicated to helping you grow spiritually, one day at a time. Subscribe for daily teaching from John Ortberg at becomenew.com/subscribe.

Would you do us a favor? Make sure you're following the podcast. (It helps the show reach more people.)

In this episode of Formation, John Ortberg sits down with Carey Nieuwhof to talk leadership, fame, faith, and what it means for the church to stay human as the world turns synthetic.

Carey Nieuwhof has spent the last decade in a chair few people occupy: hundreds of conversations a year with pastors, CEOs, authors, and public thinkers, watching up close what success does to a person's character. In this conversation with John Ortberg, recorded in the redwoods of Northern California, that vantage point turns into something more personal, a wide-ranging talk about leadership, fame, faith, and the strange new terrain of artificial intelligence.

The two friends trade stories before they trade ideas: a Wendell Berry "fan email" that turned out to be an AI scam, the surreal experience of gifting Scott Galloway a Bible after an emotional conversation about faith, and what it was like for Carey to sit across from Tim Keller weeks before the world shut down in 2020. From there the conversation opens into Carey's real preoccupations: why dogmatism is usually fear in disguise, why nobody at the top actually has it figured out, and why he worries that platforms now grow faster than character can keep up.

The back half is Carey's sharpest territory: the book he's been living inside for two years, on AI and the church. He lays out both the utopian and the dystopian cases, from cured diseases to a possible "white-collar bloodbath," and lands on a single, disarming thesis. As the world becomes more synthetic, the church's job gets simpler, not harder. It has to become more human. Along the way, he and John wrestle with AI companionship, AI grief, and what happens to resurrection, prayer, and preaching when a chatbot never has a bad day and never runs out of answers.

Resources Mentioned

• Leadership Is an Art by Max De Pree
• Amusing Ourselves to Death by Neil Postman
• Range by David Epstein
• The Algebra of Wealth by Scott Galloway
• Tides of Mind by David Gelernter
• If Anyone Builds This, Everyone Dies (on artificial superintelligence risk)
• Her (2013, dir. Spike Jonze), the AI-companionship film Carey calls prescient
• Sermon Central, the sermon-sharing platform discussed in the context of AI-era plagiarism

About Carey Nieuwhof
Carey Nieuwhof is a former lawyer and pastor who now hosts one of the most-downloaded leadership podcasts for church leaders, with over 800 episodes and 40 million-plus downloads. He is writing a forthcoming book on AI and the church.

Formation is hosted by John Ortberg. New episodes at https://www.formationpodcast.com

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Joni Eareckson Tada became a quadriplegic at seventeen after a diving accident that severed her spinal cord. In the nearly six decades since, she has written dozens of books, founded a global disability ministry, survived two bouts of cancer, and woken up every single morning asking Jesus to get her through the day.

This is a conversation about what it means to receive suffering with both hands: the anger, the prayers that didn't get answered the way she hoped, the agony, and what gets faithfully built through it all.

About the Guest

Joni Eareckson Tada became a quadriplegic at seventeen after a diving accident that severed her spinal cord. In the decades since, she has become one of the most recognized voices on suffering, disability, and faith in the world. She is the founder and CEO of Joni and Friends, a global ministry serving people with disabilities in over 100 countries. Her memoir, Joni, has sold more than five million copies. She is an artist, author, and speaker who has shared platforms with Billy Graham and appeared on programs from the Today Show to venues around the world. She and her husband, Ken, live in California.

AMA Opportunity:

Enter for a chance to ask John a question on an upcoming episode. All you need to do is follow the podcast, leave a review, take a screenshot, and email it with your question to [email protected]. One question per person; screenshot required.

What This Conversation Explores

• The diving accident, the hospital room, and the slow realization that nothing was going to change
• What it took to move from wanting to die to learning to give thanks
• A 17-year-old boy with a Bible and a verse from 1 Thessalonians and how he changed everything
• How a passage in Mark 1 reframed what Jesus actually came to do
• What Joni discovered about sin that she couldn't have learned on her feet
• The prayer she prayed three months before her accident and what she makes of it now
• What the cross has to do with finding God in suffering
• Joni and Friends: wheelchairs, Bibles, and changing the disability culture of entire countries
• Disability ministry as disability discipleship
• Two bouts with cancer, a radiation machine named after Jael, and what it means to press into Christ
• What to say to someone who is in pain right now

Resources Mentioned

• Joni — Joni Eareckson Tada
• Joni and Friends — joniandfriends.org
• Wheels for the World — Joni and Friends wheelchair delivery program
• Everything Happens for a Reason and Other Lies We Tell Ourselves — Kate Bowler
• William Law — quote on receiving suffering with both hands
• Dorothy Sayers — on God wrenching good from evil
• Dallas Willard — on the heart, behavior, and the Sermon on the Mount
• 2 Corinthians 4:8, Philippians 4:13, 1 Kings 19 — Scripture discussed

About Formation

Formation is a podcast that explores the science and soul of spiritual formation. Each episode brings together the ancient wisdom of the contemplative tradition and the best of modern research. John Ortberg sits down with some of the most rigorous and honest thinkers working at the intersection of faith and human flourishing for extended, unhurried conversations about how we are being shaped. New episodes every other week, wherever you listen to podcasts.

Connect with Formation

• Website: formationpodcast.com
• Follow John: @formationjohn
• Write to us: [email protected]

Formation is produced by Become New, a community dedicated to helping you grow spiritually, one day at a time. Subscribe for daily teaching from John Ortberg at becomenew.com/subscribe.

Would you do us a favor? Make sure you're following the podcast. (It helps the show reach more people.)

What does it take to find peace in a culture engineered for distraction? In this episode of Formation, John Ortberg sits down with a Silicon Valley pastor whose pursuit of attention, rest, and spiritual formation was interrupted by a panic attack — and reshaped by an ancient prayer practice, the problem with multitasking, and the rise of AI.

Jay Kim is a pastor, author, and podcaster who serves at WestGate Church in the heart of Silicon Valley. He's thought deeply about what it means to pursue spiritual formation in one of the most distracted, driven, and technologically saturated cultures in the world. And a few years ago, sitting in his car in a strip-mall parking lot after dropping his kids at school, a panic attack made all of that very personal.

That moment became an invitation to stop striving, to examine his life more honestly, and to rediscover an ancient practice that has become one of the most formative disciplines of his days. It's the heart of his latest book, The Pace of Peace, and the heart of this conversation.

A note for listeners: this episode includes a personal account of a panic attack and references to anxiety and mental health. If you're struggling, please reach out to someone you trust or a mental health professional.


Also in This Episode

• Why the word "multitasking" was coined to sell mainframe computers
• How the engineers building today's most advanced AI openly admit they don't actually know how it works
• Why the ancient church called distraction demonic and why a Silicon Valley pastor thinks they were right


A Few Lines Worth Sitting With

• "There is no multitasking human."
• "I do not have my finger very accurately on the pulse of my inner life most of the time."
• "Peace actually ushers you into the fray."

About Jay Kim

Jay Y. Kim is the lead pastor of WestGate Church in Silicon Valley, a Fuller Seminary graduate, and the author of Analog Church (winner of The Gospel Coalition's First-Time Author Award), Analog Christian, Listen, Listen, Speak, and his latest, The Pace of Peace — the book at the heart of this conversation. He hosts the Digital Examen podcast and co-hosts the ReGeneration Podcast. He has pastored for over 20 years, all in the Bay Area, and lives with his wife Jenny and their two young children.


Resources Mentioned

• Domestic Monastery — Ronald Rolheiser
• Soul Feast — Marjorie Thompson
• Letters by a Modern Mystic — Frank Laubach
• Against the Machine — Paul Kingsnorth
• Jonathan Haidt — research on social media and adolescent mental health
• Gloria Mark — neuroscience research on multitasking and attention
• Curt Thompson — work on shame and confession
• Steve Cuss — Managing Leadership Anxiety and writing on pastoral anxiety
• Rankin Wilbourne — Broom Tree ministry for pastors in difficulty
• The Daily Examen — Ignatian spirituality
• The hedonic treadmill — concept from Brickman & Campbell (1971)


About Formation

Formation is a podcast that explores the science and soul of spiritual formation. Each episode brings together the ancient wisdom of the contemplative tradition and the best of modern research. John Ortberg sits down with some of the most rigorous and honest thinkers working at the intersection of faith and human flourishing for extended, unhurried conversations about how we are being shaped. New episodes every other week, wherever you listen to podcasts.

Connect with Formation

www.formationpodcast.com/subscribe
@formationjohn

If this conversation gave you something to think about, we'd be grateful if you shared it with someone else who thinks intentionally about the things that matter most.