When podcast host Torie Bosch asked Richard Besser — the president and CEO of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation and former acting CDC director — how he feels about the CDC under the Trump administration, he was frank. “It’s absolutely heartbreaking,” he said.

On this episode of the “First Opinion Podcast,” Besser joined to discuss vaccine policy, reaching out to conservative media, finding common ground with MAHA, the connection between democracy and health, and more.

“I used to think that I couldn't be surprised,” he said, “but it seems like just about every day something comes out of the Department of Health and Human Services that to me is absolutely against the best interests of people's health, makes no sense, and yet it keeps on coming.”