We are facing interesting times, and because of this, Heather and I thought that some pensive, non-virus dialogue might be good for ourselves and our listeners, so today we are chatting about the idea of fairness and order that comes from growing up in a fundamental Christian church. 

Heather speaks about how her life was very ordered and how when good people fell into unpleasant circumstances, at the very least she believed they would have their reward in heaven or she could frame them in the bigger picture. Now when bad things happen to her, that's just what they are, bad things happening. She talks about how her anxiety changed focus after her deconversion when fairness and order seemed to disappear. 

Christine felt that her life before deconversion was quite unfair, and actually found some peace after her deconversion. She describes herself as a relatively disordered person, and talks about the way her family actually rejected the idea that Christian obedience to good deeds and were committed to the idea of a relationship with god being primary. 

We'd first like to thank Niel the @604Atheist and David Lindes for providing clip content for us.

In addition to that thank you to our listeners, the healthcare workers, the food industry employees and farmers, the pharmacists, the utility workers, the home and garden workers, and everyone who is doing their part to keep others safe. We also want to let victims of the virus know that we are thinking of you, and that your loss and pain are not diminished by how many others are feeling similarly. We're here for you if you want to talk or vent. If you need an outlet, or have a piece of art you want to share, please send to [email protected]. 

In this episode, Heather and Christine discuss how they understand and navigate romantic relationships and sex following their deconversion.

Heather discusses how she needed to work out how to practically date someone after deconversion. She realized that people are not perfect, and it is her responsibility to determine what her deal-breakers are. Growing up, she was told that “God had the perfect man for her” so she had an unrealistic sense of what it took to meet someone romantically since she thought God would just simply make it happen. This worldview was exacerbated by the fact that she read Christian romance novels, a genre that reinforced the idea that Christian romance had a perfect fairy tale ending. Heather ends by discussing what her deal-breakers currently are.

Christine discusses the influence people in the church had on her view of relationships. One positive thing about the church was that it encouraged men to be humble, something that she still values in men today. Emotional vulnerability was also encouraged in the church and allowed men and women to have deep relationships. She discusses how this experience helped her understand the difference between emotional and physical intimacy, and she discusses her current views on respectful non-monogamy. She discusses how influential her first boyfriend was to her understandings of relationships and she also talks about how her experience losing her virginity was positive because the man she lost her virginity to knew how to treat women and how to use birth control. She ends by talking about how she has very few deal-breakers because she believes that fluidity in a relationship is important. 

If you enjoy our podcast, please subscribe, rate, and review! Also, send thoughts, artwork, poetry, or other expressive media that tells a piece of your deconversion story and we will try to feature them in one of our openings or endings. These can be sent to [email protected]. Catch you next Sunday!

Thank you for opening clips:

Courtney Stewart

and our own Heather Bailey

and we'd also like to especially thank Stars from Streetlights who waited several months for their song to be featured on our podcast which you can download here:

iTunes: https://itunes.apple.com/album/heathen-feat-transit-22-single/1434009267

Spotify:https://open.spotify.com/album/70f1tPgCWzeOg4JEpyUBMa

Hi all, for some reason this file did not upload to most of our sites, so I thought I'd try it again... four months later. 

Heather and Christine talk about how movies, television, and music was restricted by their church, school, and parents when they were Christians. They both say that while the limitations were frustrating, there were still good things that came from it.

Heather mentions how her parents were very restrictive, but had some strange exceptions to some of the restrictive rules. She mentions that she feels left out of some nostalgic conversations today because she doesn't have the experiences of her peers. 

Christine talks about the fact that her mother didn't allow any sort of magic in their household, even if the media was by a Christian artist, but that restrictions on music and movies were a little more relaxed for her than Heather. She and Heather also mention a fear of demons that carries through to their adult lives, and how they've tried to overcome that. 

If you are enjoying the podcast, please subscribe, rate, and review! Also, send thoughts, artwork, poetry, or other expressive media that tells a piece of your deconversion story and we will try to feature them in one of our openings or endings. These can be sent to [email protected]. Catch you next Sunday!

Thank you for opening clips:

Amanda Kirby https://twitter.com/AmazandaKirby

Mac Clark https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2feJyqtyIDY3tNMulvKnAA

And for the song at the end, Candle, by Mac Clark. 

Heather and Christine talk about broader ideals they held of the world before and after deconversion. 

Christine didn't feel like she had a real sense of purpose as a Christian, but now realizes that life is truly a gift. 

Heather's worldview was most shattered by her destroyed sense of fairness and order, but she is working toward being more accepting of life as it is. 

We both invite you to share your stories and art with them, and thank you for being patient with our change to biweekly episodes. 

We want to thank our friends Amanda, Rebecca, and our anonymous contributor for the beginning montage, and can't wait to hear more from you. 

Hey, Heather and I are having some issues with our next podcast, we should be back up and running by Thursday. Sorry for the inconvenience.  Watch facebook and twitter @forsakingfaith for an announcement! We miss you.

Both Christine and Heather talk about the ways in which ideas about consent affected their first encounters with sex both as Christians and as Deconverts. They both have a wish that the attention that’s being given to conversations surrounding consent will also permeate through the Christian community.

Heather discusses the way that she had a very strict understanding of sex before she deconverted. She viewed it as something that should happen in the context of marriage and that it was going to be a transcendental experience. She never had any conversations about how to negotiate sex and relationships in a practical way, and in particular, no concept of agency or consent. Unfortunately as a result of her mentality, her first sexual experience was negative because she was taken advantage of by someone who did not ask for her consent. Heather discusses this experience bluntly and then talks about what she learned as a result and how it affected her other relationships. She now recognizes that she has agency over her own body and that consent is crucially important. She discusses how she now has a positive view of sex after recognizing that she is in control over what experiences she chooses to have.

Christine talked about how she felt like a “slut” during her early sexual life because of the contrast between her and her Christian peers, even though the secular world considered her a “good girl.” Her church family treated her like a pariah of sorts, not in an extreme way, as some religions may have, but as though she needed more love and forgiveness than others in the church. Fornication seemed like a worse sin than others, and because of this it set a precedent for the lack of agency in sex that Christine felt she had until she deconverted.

If you are enjoying the podcast, please subscribe, rate, and review! Also, send thoughts, artwork, poetry, or other expressive media that tells a piece of your deconversion story and we will try to feature them in one of our openings or endings. These can be sent to [email protected]. Catch you next Sunday!

Thank you, Courtney, for opening montage

And for the short piece of fiction:

Heather's dear friend, Amy 

We also would like to extend a huge thank you to all of you, our listeners. We are truly grateful for your support.  

In this episode, Heather and Christine express their anxieties about death from before and after deconversion. They both talk about how death affected their day-to-day activities as well as their long term goals.

Christine’s fear of martyrdom during her religious journey came from a place of not feeling worthy enough to be in a leadership position. She worried that her faith would be tested through torture because she was so scared of it. However, since she has become an agnostic atheist, she feels better about death and likens it to a permanent but restful sleep.

Heather didn’t have anxieties about dying when she was a believer, but now has a fear of its finality and thinks about it often. The most striking thing to Heather is the idea that she will someday lose her consciousness, and she is most saddened by this. She strives to find peace with her ideas of death.

If you are enjoying the podcast, please subscribe, rate, and review! Also, send thoughts, artwork, poetry, or other expressive media that tells a piece of your deconversion story and we will try to feature them in one of our openings or endings. These can be sent to [email protected]. Catch you next Sunday!

Thank you for opening montage:

Our lovely friend, Amy

and

Luke Emrich: https://freshla.me/

Heather and Christine both discuss how they told their families about their deconversion and how their parents’ relationships affected their deconversion and influenced their own conception of family. They also talk about their acceptance of the fact that their family members are still Christian and describe how they deal with that now.

Heather hasn’t yet come out as a non-Christian to her parents. Her sisters know, but she had different experiences telling them because while one is also deconverted, the other still has strong faith in the Christian God. Heather passionately discusses why she has trouble telling her parents about her lost faith.

Christine discusses her mother’s desire to be an evangelist and how that influenced her upbringing. She highlights how she separated herself from her family after deconversion and describes how when she deconverted she wasn’t able to talk to her family or close friends about it, and how when she finally did discuss it with her mother, her mother refused to believe it. She has since reestablished a relationship with her family, but it is nonetheless a distant one.

If you are enjoying the podcast, please subscribe, rate, and review! Also, send thoughts, artwork, poetry, or other expressive media that tells a piece of your deconversion story and we will try to feature them in one of our openings or endings. These can be sent to [email protected]. Catch you next Sunday!

Thank you for opening clips:

Missus Snarky - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLnUOvUuMLOaoYLLS8j3c5g

Godless Iowan - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtZhXy31sCAMd5Js_k29khA

And for the closing song:

Luke and Tonia Emrich: https://freshla.me/

In this episode, Heather and Christine discuss the challenges of developing a new value system after deconversion. Both of them acknowledge that the process is difficult because strict Christian guidelines provided them with a sense of stability. Both of them also recognize that ironically their fundamental values originate from their experience as Christians.

Heather describes how she felt “unmoored” after deconversion because she lost the stability of Christian guidelines.  She acknowledges that stability is still something she desires even though she’s rejected Christianity. She discusses her process of developing her own values, which include: honesty, integrity, authenticity, and vulnerability. She discusses how these values are actually rooted in her Christian experience.

Christine explains how losing her values was one of the most difficult parts of deconversion because they provided stability for her in her relatively unstable life. When she deconverted, she says that she was “struck by the sense of vastness of morality.” She had to start from the very beginning by asking herself, “where do secular people get their code of ethics?” Ironically, her strongest values are also grounded in Christianity. Her most important value is that she strives to see people the way that God (the loving Christian God) sees them.

If you are enjoying the podcast, please subscribe, rate, and review! Also, send thoughts, artwork, poetry, or other expressive media that tells a piece of your deconversion story and we will try to feature them in one of our openings or endings. These can be sent to [email protected]. Catch you next Sunday!

Thank you for opening clips:

Missus Snarky - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLnUOvUuMLOaoYLLS8j3c5g

Godless Iowan - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtZhXy31sCAMd5Js_k29khA

Godless Journey -  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8hQVkqzFqXhhBtAKrd9ACA

The podcast begins by highlighting some feelings that fellow deconverts have had regarding their friendships after deconverting. As Heather and Christine reflect on friendship, they highlight friends that were influential to their deconversion. They also discuss differences between Christian and non-Christian friends before and after deconversion. One specific theme that comes up is the idea of jealousy in Christianity, where it seems like God is paying attention to other friends who may seem more devoted or simply more popular. Throughout the discussion they mention how they've stayed connected or reconnected with friends in their journey of deconversion. 

If you are enjoying the podcast, please subscribe, rate, and review! Also, send thoughts, artwork, poetry, or other expressive media that tells a piece of your deconversion story and we will try to feature them in one of our openings or endings. These can be sent to [email protected]. Catch you next Sunday!

Thank you for opening clips:

Voices of deconversion - https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/voices-of-deconversion

Godless Journey -  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8hQVkqzFqXhhBtAKrd9ACA