Host: Ben Long Co-host: Lynn King Guest: Tyler Blind Description: As the Fort's Carpenter/Historic Preservationist, Tyler Blind not only sees firsthand the repairs that need to be done to the Fort's historic structures, but he's also one of those making the repairs. In this episode, Tyler discusses historic preservation techniques and their importance to historic preservation and the importance of keeping what's here, here.

[Footstep intro music plays along with sounds of the fort]

Ben Long: Welcome to Footsteps: The Fort Larned National Historic Site Podcast. I'm your host Ranger Ben. In this season, we are taking a look at Fort Larned's past, present, and future. Today is part two on Fort Larned's present where we're focusing on keeping what's here, here. Today I'm joined by our volunteer Lynn. How are you today?

Lynn King: I'm good!

Ben: As we get this kicked off why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself what drew you to Fort Larned and some of the things you find interesting about being here.

Lynn: Yeah, so back in May of this year, my husband and I decided to semi-retire and take some time to do sort of a two-fer. One is to travel and enjoy National Parks, because we love them, not just the parks like capital "N" capital "P" National Parks but all the National Park sites and also State Parks too. Like we really love the parks of this country. So to do that, to travel, to kind of get into all the really great places that this country has to offer, because it's huge and varied, right? On any other continent I think that you would, in order to see, you know, Niagara Falls and the Adirondacks and the, you know, the beautiful Green Mountains of Vermont and the coast of Maine, those would all be different countries, let alone down the swamps of Florida and, you know, the culture of New Orleans and then over into the Prairie States and then down into the Southwest. I mean, in any other continent those would be different countries and in the US it's all one country which makes it really easy to travel. But you still get this huge variety of beauty and culture and history and it's marvelous. So we're doing that. We're taking some time, we're still working part-time but we're doing a lot of traveling and we're doing a lot of volunteering in the Parks, because we found that that is a really amazing way to slow down and really absorb what is wonderful about a place.

Ben: Yeah, as Jeff was saying on the episode with Bill Chapman, he said you're lucky to have one, blessed to have two days in a park and so being able to spend one, two, three months at a park, you really get to dive in deep to what makes it special.

Lynn: Yeah! I mean so we live on site in our camper, and every single morning we watch the sunrise, look over at this really cool historic site that is part of this you know it's a-- the Santa Fe Trail is a fairly obscure, small part of American history but also really interesting and really important in its own way. I mean I think you'll hear later in the episode Tyler refers to this fort as being on the highway of the time -- and it was, right? I mean this was the Santa Fe Trail was a really big deal.

Ben: Yeah it was a it was a great interview and like you said it was it was cool to hear Tyler's perspective and his experience in the Parks as well. So our guest today is Tyler Blind. He is our-- his official title I believe is Carpenter. He is here through different project money and things like that helping with historic preservation and restoration on a few of our buildings. One of my favorite parts of the interview was getting to hear just how deep he has to go into learning from those before him, and doing research into historic preservation techniques to redo some of these things the same way that they were done 150 sometimes 200 years ago. And so that was that was really neat for me.

Lynn: Yeah, I would say what really resonated with me in Tyler's story and his journey with the National Parks was something that I think he and I probably both have in common, which is that our roles with the Parks is to sort of be a bit like Mary Poppins, right? Like we get to come into a place that is already wonderful in its own way and then we get to, at least for a time, put our hands on it and make it better and also really enjoy it. He got to put his hands on all sorts of different really interesting stuff in really interesting places and he got to enjoy not only his work but also the place of the National Park Site where he was.

Ben: It was a great interview we had a great time and we hope you also enjoy it, so here you go!

[Whoosh]

Ben: Welcome Tyler.

Tyler Blind: Well hello.

Ben: Thanks for coming on and telling us a little bit about what you do. Why don't we get started with your name, title, how long you've been here and what other Parks you've worked at.

Tyler: Well my name is Tyler Blind. Here at the Park, I'm technically Carpenter but it's also called like Historic Preservationist. I have worked-- I started off at Herbert Hoover National Historic Site in West Branch, Iowa. That was July of 2015 to November '17 working seasonally 6 months at a time. That's just the birthplace and burial site of former president Herbert Hoover. They have his original birthplace cottage there and his gravesite up there. Then next, was a-- I had a year and a half break and then I went back to the park service and that is when I came to Fort Larned for the first time in June of 2019. That was right after Memorial Day.

Ben: With all the flooding.

Tyler: When the was closed. Yep, I remember like a week before moving here, I saw the Instagram and there's water-- they closed the park down cuz the entrance Road was flooded. I'm like "okay there's going to be some work to do when we get there." Turns out that kind of like reduced the amount of work we had to do because there's no mowing to be done.

Ben: That's true.

Tyler: Cuz you don't mow in that wet of grass. The Oxbow had water in it.

Ben: I remember that.

Tyler: And I think it maybe a month or two later that it was finally not staining water in the Oxbow and everyone's like "that's never happened." So then it was Fort Larned and then that-- I was done in December. And then April, the third week of April in 2020, I moved to Seneca Falls to work at the Women's Rights National Historical Park. There I was just a regular Maintenance Worker like it been everywhere else. That was done. Done working there in December and then when went to April of 2021 was Cuyahoga Valley National Park. And there I was a painter there -- a Painter Helper. And then the following Spring I got hired here as a Carpenter.

Ben: That was, shoot, that was with project money too, right?

Tyler: Yep.

Ben: So even though this is a temporary position, it's been extended quite a bit.

Tyler: Yep, through-- that was originally project money and then it got switched up to like a temporary COVID hire money and now we're just-- Adrian and I are being paid out of Soft Funding type money right now.

Lynn: So for listeners who have no idea what those terms mean what is Project Money what is Soft Money what is COVID Money?

Tyler: I don't know what the Soft Money Hard Money-- that would have been a question to ask "Chappy" when he was on. It's like fixed money then there's like extra money they can use stuff here and there for and believe that's-- as far as I know that's what is money we can use here and there. Other money has to be spent on this and that then there like the soft money can be here or there where we need it and they've decided to keep us around a little while longer. Hence why we're doing all the all the work on this building is that we're currently in the Commanding Officer Quarters is all the tear out stuff we're doing and preparation for restoring it to what it looked like and opening up to be an exhibit is all out of that.

Lynn: Okay so project money is earmarked for a very specific project.

Tyler: Yep.

Lynn: And soft money, the Fort or Historic Site or whatever site can use at its own discretion for what it thinks needs to get done?

Tyler: I'm sure it's a lot more complicated than that but that's what-- something along those lines I can't tell you. I'm not a Facility Manager somebody else like that. Project Money is they get, you know, people like Facility Managers have to figure out a project, figure out how much it's going to cost, put that all in the system and then get that kind of money approved as like extra money for the park over like the base budget. And so that is all-- that's what I've-- besides when I was at Women's Rights, that was what I was always paid out of for every Park I've been to. It's always been I got a project they get them like every year they get a project for their Seasonals to be able to work on and you work out of that.

Lynn: Okay so when you come into a park, generally, you are extra, you're not part of their core staff you come in and you just-- you help out with whatever above and beyond stuff you can get done for them.

Tyler: If you're talking the difference between like Permanent, yeah. But they plan on Seasonals every year they know that's going to be part of the budget every year for certain Seasonals and stuff like that.

Ben: They just have to have certain projects lined up for the Seasonals to do.

Tyler: Yeah and they line it up so well that they can pretty much-- they plan on it every year unless something like major or drastic different happens.

Lynn: So what led you to work for the National Parks.

Tyler: I've always enjoyed the Parks, being outside, it's going to sound random cuz like some people like I just I did this I volunteer to do this so I can get in here and do all this. That that wasn't me, mine was pretty random. I was-- going back, I used to work in a factory and when they laid me off, I decided to go back to college and get a degree. And after getting my Associates and then headed back to the University of Iowa to-- actually not headed back, but going to the University of Iowa while working there I was doing granite work like I'd done before a long-- a while ago. And just a really bad day working at a company that I didn't like with the, you know, school stress and other things going on in life. And I mean a really bad day on top of what was not being good weeks you know and I just went home and ignored my schoolwork and just applied for like 20 different jobs. And one of them was the National Park Service who called me up and you know within a while later I was doing fingerprints and you know the background checks and everything. But yeah, no just bad day at work, stressful, decided to apply for a bunch of jobs I'm like well that sounds fascinating to work, you know, in historic place and I applied and yeah. Then actually got the job.

Ben: So then the follow question to that: what has kept you in the National Park Service?

Tyler: Oh well yeah that is the most important part. I do really like history, I like old style like construction stuff, the way things used to be, and just working in the Park Service, I've worked for corporations I've worked for small businesses and it's always a lot of ah just get it done. Just get it done. And you know if it's messed up maybe we'll get to it later. The way our system works in the Parks, it has to be done right the first time. We don't have all the time to do it this way, we don't have all the budgeting or just the time or anything. Like do it right because it's historic and it needs to be done right the first time and done well. And so I do like that. Preserving history I think is-- and you know amazing and important and then you get to like other different non-historical parks and you're preserving like nature and cultural stuff and just like, yeah okay yeah, this is you know it's a great mission to be on to help preserve all this stuff and actually also help and increase my skills and everything like that. And it's not the same thing every day. You could go out and be doing masonry like I used to do and just doing brick, after brick, after brick, after brick, or block you know whatever and you know that that does get boring and tedious at the time. I'll get really good at it because I am good at repetitive tasks, but it does get a little-- for the mind it's not that exciting or rewarding. But you get to work on all kinds of different stuff over here it's yeah it's fun you get to go see some nice places. I really enjoyed like when I was at Cuyahoga Valley I would just plan some of my days where I had to go do other stuff, I'd plan my day and just take a park at by the lake or by this or watch the steam train go by or-- you know just bring a lunch and it's like a picnic every day in the Park Service it's quite nice as long as the weather's good you know sometimes it's not so great and sometimes your picnic flies away when you're in Kansas. It's like oh it's a beautiful day if it wasn't for that wind blowing everything away. Whatever National Park you're in you're usually not too far away from nature and just being able to just go out and just yeah sit amongst the trees or the prairie out here and just watch stuff, yeah.

Lynn: So it sounds like you have pretty good experience working on both modern renovations as well as historic renovations. Could you describe the difference of what it's like to work on one versus the other?

Tyler: A lot of material difference there's a lot, like your lumber. If you go down to the basement of this building where we tore out the chimney that used to be there, you can see the lumber that they used to have there, they're not 2x4 pine. And you know 2x4 we're not even talking you know modern lumber is not even 2 inches by 4 inches. Yeah, you're actually smaller than that and the down there in the walls of this building, we've seen that they're actually like 4x4 posts like you would have like for a fence like literally what we have like the fence post out here is what the studs on these walls are made out of and then even some of the floor bracing. As I was under there yesterday trying to hammer out that foundation and yeah, just different lumber materials, the stone materials can be different. A lot of different materials and just the way things were done a little bit differently back then you don't have all the screws that-- a lot more nails holding stuff and sometimes just more like friction fit type stuff. Where it's just it's so tightly put together that doesn't need all that extra stuff. Takes bit more time, bit more precision.

Lynn: It sounds like it might also be a bit more mental work for you guys to figure out how to reconstruct some of the materials because you're not going to go to a Home Depot and buy it off the shelf.

Tyler: Oh yeah no, I had to go-- the materials for some of the windows that we're doing it has to be clear white pine and there's not any of that so just last year had to go take the trailer and drive all the way to Springfield, Missouri with an overnight stay and pick up a trailer full of clear white pine Lumber for us to have.

Ben: Continuing down the line of the modern stuff versus the historic stuff. Both times you've been here have focused on a different thing. So your first time here your project that season was some of the new museum renovations and then this time you're working on more historic renovation or historic preservation and restoration of some of the windows and things like that. Why don't you go into some of the differences there or some of the challenges that you had with both of those.

Tyler: Yeah the 2019 they-- I think they began in fiscal year of 2018 doing some stuff in museum moving stuff around so yeah. I came through when the museum was like, it had a lot of stuff I never saw what the old museum looked like, I saw like half of it because they still had like half the stuff on display while it was blocked off kind of moving stuff around as we were working. And that's the interesting part about working like in museums or in some of these areas we're still trying to keep it open for the public, cuz some people don't go to the parks, the same park all the time. Some people this would be the only time they ever had to this park to see what it is. So we kind of want to have on display all that we can. Doesn't always happen that way and especially you know not a lot of people come out to Larned you know as it was. This used to be right on a stop on the interstate of the day and it's not anymore. Yeah, we were doing drywall, and painting, and then putting some carpet down, gluing carpet down, carpet squares with a little rubber backing on them. Yeah it's not stuff they did back in the day. There's some electrical stuff going on putting in all the track lighting. And those aren't things that you what you do you don't build dry a wall for these buildings. I mean these are these are wood lath and plaster put up on them. That was a lot more modern going on with there and now here yeah, fixing windows and you know the clear white pine and just tear them all apart. A lot of them like they don't use the trim around to keep the actual window in those are nailed in but like the actual like sashes themselves, there's no mechanical-- there's no nails or screws holding them in those were all just like mortice and tenon joints and little wedges and actually friction fit everything in together. So they actually hold together without having to be screwed or anything like that. So I got to do that doing a little a little detailed like playing with a shaper to do like what we would do like molding type work to make the muttons and the rails on the windows. That's a brand new thing for me here to learn I'd actually like work a shaper and get those blades which the former Carpenter made most of them by hand -- those blades to actually do a lot of the profiling on these. And every building has a different profile and a different thickness of these windows.

Lynn: So it sounds like you, even here at for Larned which is a Historic Site, you've done pretty big spectrum of both modern stuff like in the museum, largely modern renovations, versus here over in the Officer's Quarters which are being renovated where it's all extremely hand worked, custom, truly historic renovations where you're trying to be as authentic as possible.

Tyler: We got to paint the walls with paint rollers.

Lynn: Okay

Tyler: So I mean that's about I mean you got some power tools to working it's a lot easier to make those sashes in the shop than what they would have done back in the day. But yeah, that's about some of the more modern tools. But yeah, we could use paint rollers on the wall. Ideally you'd like a brushed look on the wall, but modern paint nowadays does not let-- they're all self-leveling paint, so like you can't even yeah you can't buy paint at the store to actually get a brush look anymore. There are ways but it won't be-- all the good paint doesn't let you put brush marks in it cuz yeah the-- "Chappy" here wanted me to do that on the first room that we did over on 09 on the on the renovation project last year and I waited till that paint was almost-- it was just the tackiest it's ever going to be. Some of it was even-- so I took a brush and I just-- the whole two walls of that room there, top to bottom. Came back and I was like okay there's the brush look. Came back the next day and all perfectly smooth.

Ben: Oh goodness!

Tyler: So those are some stuff with the materials that is different when you're doing now that-- yeah you can't really do that, those paints nowadays are actually so much easier for like your average consumer to use so they don't have to worry about putting like brush marks-- it's possible but not really feasible to do with.

Lynn: So how are you learning to do all these different historical techniques? Like you said you had to figure out how to try to put brush marks on the wall and you're learning you know you're learning how to make custom molding for example. So like can you give us some examples of different skills you've had to learn and maybe how you figured it out?

Tyler: Well all the window stuff that I was having to do here I can thank the former coworker huge, huge help. And that was part of what you know part of my hiring here "Chappy"'s like "I know you don't know entirely how to do this but I know you can learn it and so Robert's going to help you do it cuz Robert's been doing it for 12 years but he's got his own projects and everything that he's got to do so he doesn't have time to do this major project" on 09-- I'm sorry 07 or is the South Junior Officers Quarters as we would call it.

Lynn: It's interesting. You know as a person who is, I think of myself as a National Park Super Fan in some ways, love the National Park System and I definitely think of it as a place of recreation and beauty and preservation. I really had never thought of it until now as also a repository of historic skills. When I asked you how you learn that you said I learned it from someone else who'd been doing it for 12 years and he probably learned it from someone else who' been doing it for a decade or more.

Tyler: Yeah, Robert went to, I think he went to school but not entirely for that and then yeah so he had to learn most of those skills here. I mean, yeah it's those skills that you pick up and learn on. It's like to revert to that tuck pointing on the Blockhouse what we were doing earlier this year. I've done tuck pointing previously I learned it when I was going to school for a year doing-- for masonry and I've done it on chimneys, buildings, porches, and stuff like you know lots of different things mostly chimneys though. That's actually part of what got me hired at Herbert Hoover initially was that they had two chimneys they needed tuck pointed. One on their schoolhouse and one on their blacksmith.

Lynn: Ok, so can you, for folks who haven't been here, or haven't been here in a while, could you describe three things? What is the Blockhouse, what does it look like, and then what is tuck pointing?

Tyler: Yes so the Blockhouse-- it kind of sits off the like the Parade Grounds a little bit it's like this weird building it's kind of different from the-- I mean all the other buildings are rectangular and the Blockhouse sits out there. The blockhouse is hexagon shaped with a little-- a very shallow pitch cedar roof, then it's got like a Sentry Watchtower on top. It's made of the same sandstone that all the other buildings around here are made out of and it's got a tunnel inside and a door that leads to a well room. I think Ben would be able to better tell exactly what the blockhouse was used for cuz my understanding was that has two different purposes back during the fort period.

Ben: Yeah so the blockhouse originally was a defensive position um and was one of the first sandstone buildings to be constructed. So there's 100 rifle loopholes in there to help defend the fort from all angles. It was a last ditch effort location if the Fort was under attack you do have the loopholes in the two other South buildings too that you could defend the fort with. But then since it hadn't been used as a defensive position by the time the Army gets around to constructing the guardhouse, which would be in between the Shops and the New Commissary, they realized that they hadn't used the Blockhouse, likely wouldn't have to use it, and so they decided to save money and convert the Blockhouse into the Guardhouse. So that tunnel led to an underground well in the case that the fort was attacked, you still had access to water. But then that tunnel became solitary confinement for the especially misbehaving soldiers. But yeah you get the two levels of rifle loopholes for the defense of the fort but then later the Guardhouse.

Lynn: What's a rifle loophole?

Ben: That's a good question. On a ship it's called a port hole on land it's called a loophole. But it's a hole in the side of the building that you can use to stick your rifle out of and help defend the fort.

Lynn: So the Blockhouse, in summary, is a combination of a guard and sentry building, and it's hexagon-shaped so they have a pretty good view from all angles of who might be coming. It's also fortified in a way that if there was an attack, soldiers could get in there, they had lots of places to point their guns out of to hold down the fort literally. And then also it was used as a place for punishment. So if you were a misbehaving soldier, you might be sent there with a ball and chain, you might be sent there and put down in the, in my opinion, very creepy, not smelling so fantastic, solitary confinement.

Tyler: I was in that tunnel earlier this year for replacing boards in the tunnel that were rotten out cuz there's moisture getting down in there. It is not very comfortable and I'm not very tall, I'm only like 5'9" so yeah it's not a comfortable walk down there.

Lynn: Okay so now we know what the Blockhouse is. What is tuck pointing?

Tyler: Tuck pointing is just a-- it's not done a whole lot nowadays but even that's kind of how masonry structures are designed. So masonry structures, you have your stone but then so they're not just like free holding stuff you put your mortar in to help hold them together and the mortar, best way to put it is like the material the whatever masonry material you're using doesn't matter what type of stone it is brick, block, or whatever even sandstone like this, those aren't supposed to wear down or break or degrade. If it is, there's an issue going on elsewhere with the building maybe water's getting in or whatever. The mortar is supposed to wear like especially as buildings shift and move. We have them on these buildings, we have gauges on these buildings, we're measuring these buildings and how they shift and settle and move. And with the tuck pointing you're going to have joints wear out just over through like erosion and time and sometimes they'll crack from the shifting but that's where they're supposed to crack. When you like walk on a sidewalk and those sidewalks-- they'll pour a sidewalk primarily as all one piece of concrete, but they'll cut or they'll put grooves in that and that's designed to be where as the sidewalk shifts and weather changes, that's where the crack goes. Mortar kind of does the same thing and that's usually that's where you want the damage to go to because that's easy to replace. Replacing actual stones and bricks, that's a that's a lot more work, don't want to do that. So the mortar is designed to wear away instead of the actual stone and that's why you have castles that are you know when you go over, I love castles, when you go over to other countries, that's why you have castles that have been there for hundreds and hundreds and some almost like over a thousand years. And the stones and materials in there are still the original stones because that's how they're designed to be built. So tuck pointing whether they're wearing away themselves or whether the mortar is just starting to crack and have holes in it, tuck pointing is where you just go in usually you can you can hand chisel them if you need to or you can use like a grinder with a special little bit on there a tuck pointing bit and it'll knock all that mortar out usually go back about quarter maybe a half an inch. You remove all of that mortar there from that damaged area section and then you just go back in you take a little bit of mortar, I usually put on the back side of my masonry trial and then you have the these little tuck pointers which are just like really thin they're like a trowel but they're, like a masonry trowel, but instead of like the diamond-ish shape they're rectangular and they're thin. We can get them up like a 1/2 inch, 3/8, 1/4 inch sizes. We even have an 1/8 inch ones here, because the stones around here some of them are slapped together so tight. Some of them are actually touching and then they like groove out the outside of the stone and then fill it full on mortar to give you a false joint. And you just take the mortar you put it on the back side of your trowel and instead of like scraping it onto the material like you would for like another for like actually putting together a wall, you just take your little tuck pointer you put that trowel up against it and you just slowly but surely just push it off the trowel and into the hole and have to change sizes depending upon-- especially around here um it's a full kit of tuck pointers. And yep just slowly filling them in until you're out towards the front of them flush with the stone. Then give it a little bit of time to dry because you'll kind of have like muffin top like little squeeze overs from the tooling and then you can just take a brush and brush them all off and they'll give them a nice brush look or-- and it'll get all the little flakes off there from what you were pushing in there. Because, I mean you have to make sure they're full. If you do not fill them in and you leave gaps, moisture will get into those gaps and then moisture in a wall will damage it and then that's just yeah-- you just need to fill them full or else water damage is going to happen and then they're going to erode and go bad. But yeah you just fill them full like that it is a very tedious process people watch me do it sometimes and they're just like "ugh". Like they just could not imagine doing it themselves but I like that tediousness. I like that, especially it's one of those projects where you grind it out, your section, and then within like 10 minutes you got all your mortar in there and then however fast it's drying you go right through and you can do like a whole section in like in like a half hour. Grind to a brand new joints-- the difference you can make is just huge. And it's and it's good for it because, yeah, we're putting that mortar back in. So your modern mortar has like Portland Cement in it and so they last like 50-75 years that's why you don't see tuck pointing happen a whole lot nowadays because your mortar is so strong. Our mortar here they didn't have Portland Cement back in the day. It's a weird history of Portland Cement but we didn't have it. And then we especially didn't have it over in the US, so it's just sand and lime. Two part sand to one part lime mix, the sand is your bulk and then your lime is your elasticity and kind of holds all the glue together and like some of these the lime is out of it so it's just like compacted sand.

Lynn: So what are you using for mortar now, are you using historically accurate mortar?

Tyler: Yes we have to use historically accurate mortar here because it's what we it's what we call a soft mortar. So like every mortar has like pounds per square inch of pressure it can take and-- or like it gives off itself and your mortar has to be weaker than your stone essentially. That way, if we were to put, and it had been done before during the ranch period and maybe other times, where there actually is like Portland Mortar used in these buildings. That's not good because then when the building shifts and moves the mortar will be stronger than the stone so it'll cause the stone to actually break or start to spall as we call it where like it start to flake off near the near the edges of the mortar. So as everything moves you know there's pressure when they move something has to give. The idea is it's the mortar that gives or wears away then we can just replace that easily it's just you know going over tuck pointing. As some people don't think it's easy I think it's easy-- "oh here we go, buh, buh, buh", tuck point the mortar back in. Otherwise the stone will actually damage and we don't want that even if it wasn't a historic building it's a lot more work and then on historic building we're trying to preserve the history around here so that's a real bummer when that kind of stuff happens when you got to actually replace something historic around here. So yeah no we use what is just a soft mortar because that's what we have to use around here. It's not just for historical accuracy, it's for the safety of the material itself.

Lynn: Yeah because the sandstone of the buildings here are it's pretty soft stone.

Tyler: They're very soft stone and these are even harder than what they naturally would have been. If you saw we were doing on the Blockhouse just last month after we got done tuck pointing, we were spraying it, we're actually spraying this it's a consolidator. With this consolidator that makes the stone stronger, about twice as strong as it actually is. And that's one of our preservation processes around here.

Lynn: So a consolidator is something you'd spray on stone to help prevent the stone from eroding?

Tyler: It makes it stronger, yep. So it'll hold up to the weather a lot more it won't be as easy you know as you know you go around the buildings of this, here and there's a lot of people scribing into the walls and there's a reason they did that it's very easy to do it. It does not take a whole lot of time for somebody to come through and do that.

Lynn: And just to be clear for everyone listening: no one is writing their names on the buildings anymore but they used to prior to the Park Service.

Ben: It's no longer legal.

Tyler: That's at a very good point.

Ben: And that's another thing too that one way you can help out if you are visiting is to, if you see something like that happening say something about it. We'll be very grateful.

Tyler: And your historic structures are just like nature -- leave it the way you saw it when you came in.

Lynn: Feel free to take pictures of it.

Ben: Yes.

Tyler: But it but it is difficult with all the Ranch Period stuff that adds the history of these buildings they go and they're like "oh these people did it, oh they're everywhere" then they kind of get that idea to do it themselves just like yeah, no. That's, yeah.

Lynn: Some visitors definitely do not know, before they talk to us, they don't know that the graffiti is actually fairly historical because they'll see you know dates from the 1900s and think it's still going on until we explain that no-no now that it's a National Park Site, it's not allowed anymore. The previous owners encouraged it but now it's a no-no.

Tyler: I call it historic tagging instead of graffiti. Which speaking of which, over in the South Junior Officer Quarters in one of the rooms over there, when last year we were doing painting, wallpaper repair, re-oiling the floors, and wood grain staining. It's just a very complicated process. So to do it you have to have bare wood and then you prime it and usually with clear white pine it absorbs primer so quick and so much you have to prime them twice. So two layers of primer, a layer of Franciscan Ivory paint and then a layer of stain then another-- which then you wait to get slightly tacky, paint thinner and a brush and a rag and you go over that you're trying to thin it out where it has these wood grain stains you can see the layer down below. And then you do that for a second layer of stain. And then you got to go with your clear coat of poly to give it a nice shiny look so that's six coats and those coats of stain from the best guesses of I guess a guy back in the 1980s those coats of stain sometimes are not even like straight up this color that color they're two different colors or they're two different colors mixed together.

Lynn: So why was it important for you to do six layers of staining and painting?

Tyler: Because that's the way it was done.

Lynn: Even back in the day that's the way it was done?

Tyler: That's, yep. So that is what to our absolute best guess what they were done. Another one of those skills that you have to learn that you don't get when you go to other places. It's like I was like getting some tips from like some other people who've done it before but then I'm like you know I like to look up stuff myself like I wonder if there's anybody online who like oil grains staining-- yeah, no. So I'm just going to have to like learn this like the old school way of just like trial and error, trial and error like oh that's not right, clean a bunch of it up and try it again just trying to get these colors to match.

Lynn: So once upon a time you and I were talking about your career with the Park Service and you said to me something that I loved. You said-- obviously there's pros and cons to being a seasonal employee. One of the things that you really loved about being seasonal and about moving around from park to park was that you felt in some ways like you were retiring in reverse. And I've never heard anyone say that before, I thought it was fantastic and I'd love for you to describe what that means to you.

Tyler: It's such a millennial thing to do right now. You have-- I mean I have places I've worked I have a friend of mine, he's backpacking through Nepal right now and I don't-- I saw yesterday somewhere in Europe. He travels a lot he's like worked in like Moose over by the Grand Tetons like working at ski resorts and plowing roads and stuff like that. I see people come to the parks and they can't walk like even like certain steps even like handicap accessible areas they're still weary about because physically they can't do it any-- they can't do it. And you know some of the hikes that I go on, beautiful places like that you my buddy Justin shared the story about like he was-- people would ask him like as he was working near a National Park what's the best place to go here and he tell him go through this mountain range -- I think it was Grand Teton -- go through this mountain range it's a blueberry field between two mountain ranges and you can just eat blueberries. One of the most beautiful places he's ever seen and-- but those people couldn't do it because like is it a concrete path all the way out there like no it's a dirt path like ah we can't do dirt because of our bodies. It's just even if we get to an age where we can like retire if we make it there. Can you financially do it? And then are you mentally there? I'm going to have Alzheimer's when I get old that just-- it's just I'm guaranteed it. And I'm like so am I going to be mentally capable of do-- you know of enjoying it or doing it and then you know physically too. Yeah, it's not good in the pocketbook, you're traveling a lot you don't know exactly where you're going everywhere, but it is fun and enjoyable. Like I said I've been you know Kansas in the middle of nowhere as Fort Larned is, it is a wonderful nice place to stay and hang out in the people here and the history and the stuff to see in the area. Then I've been to New York and I've been to Ohio and it's just. By the way may I add how amazing it is this podcast right here with the three of us, we are in the middle of Central Kansas and we all at one time were residents of the state of New York we all lived in New York.

Ben: That's true. Lynn: That's true.

Tyler: Yeah as I really wanted to point that out this podcast and I don't want it edited out because that I found is fascinating we all three at one time lived-- I for not nearly as long as some of you guys but yeah.

Ben: Not at the same time.

Tyler: No, no, not at the same time but at some point we were all living in the state of New York.

Lynn: Sure.

Ben: Yeah

Lynn: So for you retiring in reverse means you're still working.

Tyler: Yep.

Lynn: But you're getting to do some of the things that folks dream about doing when they retire. You get to explore the National Parks you get to visit different parts of this country and really get into the nooks and crannies of what's interesting and beautiful about it. While you're working and while you're young enough to really enjoy it in that way.

Tyler: Yeah and people don't realize you know well years ago me and some co-workers we took a camping trip out in the middle out in the middle of the prairie in the middle of nowhere. You're like oh no you got to have like this great scenery like the prairie in the areas out here is it's great scenery in itself until you're out here even outside of the cities really and just enjoying that. We camped out there and just did primitive camping out there we're like this is just nice and wonderful. And then I'm gone you know and camped in the Adirondack mountains up in New York up in the Catskills and everything. Oh just wonderful places been to Niagara Falls and then at the end of seasons I take, you know, I take a week to get back to Iowa where I usually hang out in my offseason. So I've go to all these different places and like the Great Smokey Mountains. If you see a place stop at it.

Lynn: I would say that's the other thing the three of us have in common is totally enjoying American history, Americana, the diversity of this country. That's why we like the National Parks too.

Ben: Absolutely. Now to finish us off the one question that we always ask. How can our listeners help?

Tyler: Just don't play around with the buildings, go in don't touch things when you're not supposed to. Just leave the park as you came in. The only people who should be making changes to it is me because that's my actual job. And there's actual ways I have to go we have we talked about some of the ways and we have compliances and everything to do-- it's doing my job takes a lot of-- you have to do it this way and that way and this way and that way and this way and like oh yeah it's more complicated with you know historic preservation. So yeah just leave the parks the way you come in but enjoy them and that's how you continue to enjoy it you know people who come back years later or decades later to a park they were at as a kid you know if we can preserve it to where it looks like that looks the same for them and the only changes that have been made have been made maybe for more visor access or more educational purposes that's wonderful. Just leave things the way they are and leave things the way they came in and then enjoy them while you're here because that's part of the job.

Ben: Absolutely.

Lynn: Awesome.

Ben: Well thank you for coming on and thank you for giving your two cents on what you do here and thank you.

Lynn: Thanks Tyler.

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Ben: Well thank you very much for listening we definitely enjoyed interviewing Tyler and we hope you enjoyed listening to it as well. Be sure to leave us a rating and review also be sure to follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter and check out our website we have a lot of great resources there for you.

Lynn: And also if you're looking for another hidden gem of the Midwest and the National Park Sites we're going to encourage you to follow along with Herbert Hoover National Historic Site's Facebook page, any social media, their website definitely a hidden gem that I'm sure my husband and I will be checking out after hearing Tyler talk about it. It sounds pretty wonderful.

Ben: It does! Yeah, so thank you again for taking a listen.

Lynn: We will see you next time on Footsteps: The Fort Larned Podcast

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