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Frank and Stan Chats
By Frank Norris and Stan JohnsonEducation
Frank and Stan Chats episodes
- Frank and Stan Chat No. 239This week the gents chat with Alex Howarth, a Director of a large accountancy business and proud father of three young girls. Stan kicks things off considering the use of 'case sampling' in the new Ofsted school inspection Framework. He's concerned with the approach and how it could lead to weak evaluations by inspectors. Alex then reflects on the shift to more practical mathematics contained in the Francis Curriculum Review. Frank then considers the importance of oracy in the future and how disappointing it is to see the emphasis on traditional examinations being maintained. He suggests this counters the shift for oracy to be an integral part of all subjects. The chat then considers the Engalnd cricket team's chances of regaining the Ashes this winter.
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37 min - Frank and Stan Chat No. 238It is a pleasure to welcome Chris Zarraga the Director of Schools North East, the largest regional organisation supporting schools in the country. We also become aware that SNE also supports a number of special schools. We discuss the origins of SNE and Chris' career journey before we venture into what's caught Stan's eyes this week? He focuses on Martin's Law and the implications it has for school leadership. Chris then reflects on the importance of relationships and how this is always a key feature of the major events SNE organises. Frank then closes the chat by considering the insight offered by Sam Gibbs in a recent TES article considering what effective CPD for teachers may look like. It's a wide ranging chat with much reflection on previous experiences as senior leaders and why having a colleague or at least someone leaders can turn to when requiring personal and professional support.
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42 min - Frank and Stan Chat SPOTLIGHT No. 18
The 18th Spotlight edition of the Frank and Stan Chat looks at assessment and what digital leadership involves when we chat with Rosie Clayton. Rosie, until recently, was a key player in the Re-Thinking Assessment Group and has recently moved into a senior role at the Transforming Learning Group.
We consider the development of new approaches to assessment and the future role of AI. We also revisit the amazing work Rosie led on in creating a Learner Profile that provides a mechanism for a fuller range of skills, expertise, experiences, and interests to be recorded.
https://rethinkingassessment.com/learner-profile/
We then shift on to her new role and consider some of the challenges in progressing a digital shift at individual schools.
A great chat. Hope you enjoy it.
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30 min - Frank and Stan Chat No. 237
Frank met Chris Jones, CEO of SMART Curriculum, a couple of years ago. We've been trying to secure a guest slot on the Frank and Stan Chat for a little while. He's a very busy man, so we are delighted to have him join us for what proves to be an illuminating and far-reaching discussion.
Stan gets things rolling by questioning the central costs of trusts compared to those of the local authorities in the past. Chris is well-informed on such matters and explains that comparisons are tricky because the actual personal salaries are not made public. Frank considers the growth of specialist subject advisers on permanent contracts in central teams and wonders the merits of this approach.
Chris then reflects on the encouraging news that more political parties including the government, want to strengthen the public perception of vocational pathways. Chris prefers to use the word 'professional' rather than 'vocational'. We then consider how important it is to view this issue across all phases of education, rather than it being seen as a Post-16 issue. Stan and Frank then gain valuable insights into the number of L2 and L3 courses available and the proportion that are 'vocational'.
Frank closes the chat by reflecting on a paper he wrote this week about the School Curriculum Award and how it resonated with Chris' weekly newsletter that covered the curriculum and accountability developments in Estonia.
Really interesting stuff, and makes clear to both Stan and Frank how fortunate they are to have such brilliant guests each week. It is some of the best professional development they experience and it's free!!!
Enjoy.
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37 min - Frank and Stan Chat No. 236: Dave Rzeznik
It is a great pleasure to have Dave Rzeznik, a former HMI for many years with a keen interest in the provision and outcomes of the most vulnerable pupils, join us as our guest this week. We have been trying to secure a slot with Dave for quite some time, so it is great to have time to discuss the things that have caught our eyes this week.
Stan kicks off by considering the new role of the nominee being introduced by Ofsted as part of their attempt to de-escalate the tension felt during their inspections. Inevitably, Stan finds a gaping hole in their thinking.
Dave then considers the best practice guidance being produced by the DfE to assist in the development of specialist special education needs provision. He believes there is a lot of good intention but a lack of expertise and funding to enable it to work well in all places. We also consider how particular schools and trusts may not be willing to share their expertise too much due to the risk it presents in losing their staff.
Frank then reflects on the role of the Lay Inspector on the early versions of an Ofsted Framework and how they were meant to bring a non-education perspective on the evidence gathering. He believes there is value for school self evaluation in utilising a non-educationalist to consider how smoothly a school is working.
There is a lot of chat about Frank's unwillingness to pay his way, which is grossly exaggerated but it is an enjoyable 30 or so minutes. We hope it has some uplift and benefit for your work.
Enjoy
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38 min - Frank and Stan Chat No. 235
This week the chat considers what it takes for an ambitious socially minded individual to leave a successful career to start up a not for profit organisation charged with encouraging more females into the tech world. This is what Chelsea Slater did when she created Liverpool Girl Geeks which in time became InnovateHer. Chelsea explains how an assembly in her secondary school made her realise she wanted to get into studying media. This took her towards university and then into a digital business where she noticed there were very few females. That's the journey towards her CEO role at InnovateHer. Chelsea was at the Labour Party Conference this week discussing and leading roundtables on the potential of InnovateHer in addressing a growing need for more digitally aware young people and adults.
Stan considers the importance of comparing schools by taking into account their context, Chelsea then gives more details on the government's Digital Taskforce before Frank reflects on the high quality care he received at Stepping Hill Hospital this week and why are 30% of secondary headteachers leaving their posts within three years. It isn't quite as easy to explain.
Enjoy!
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35 min - Frank and Stan Chat No. 234
We are delighted to welcome back Ian Coulson, a former Headteacher and now a school improvement adviser. He was previously a guest in December 2020 when he was managing the trials and tribulations of DfE guidance for school leaders during the Covid pandemic. He is now the Founder of Teaching Made Simple Ltd, an advisory organisation for schools. He is at pains to explain he doesn't believe teaching is simple, but by trying to focus on the most important things, it can be made more manageable.
Stan gets things rolling by reflecting on the Good Hearts Law which ostensibly is “When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.” In other words, when we set one specific goal, people will tend to push towards that objective regardless of the consequences. This leads to problems when they neglect other equally important aspects of a situation.
Ian then reflects on how he used self evaluation as a tool for improvement and why he believes it remains a key element of improvement. He also notes how Ofsted's new Framework references it without explaining its importance, particularly during the initial call with inspectors.
Frank finishes the chat by considering the importance of community and why trust/school leaders need to step up to play a leading role in the elements that can affect children and young people's learning. He references an amazing conference he attended last week organised by Forum Strategy.
It's a fascinating chat, or at least it was for the two regular gents.
Enjoy!
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44 min - Frank and Stan Chat No. 233: Ronda Zelezny-Green Returns EditionWe are so fortunate to have highly regarded experts in their field who come along to be a guest on our chat. This week is a good example. The two gents are joined by Dr Ronda Zelezny-Green, the Chair of the Board at InnovateHer, as well as a digital changemaker creating social learning systems to empower Black people, women, people with disabilities, and others who may be marginalised in the technology and education sectors. She has nearly 20 years of professional experience spanning five continents from the public, private, and civil society sectors. A Black and Indigenous woman excelling with ADHD, Ronda also has extensive experience in delivering racial equity and justice and gender with global perspectives. This week, she draws attention to some recent research from the LSE into Generative AI and how it is being used by young people and influencing their parents and carers. She encourages us to consider how well AI is being deployed in England's schools. Stan and Frank reflect on how Ofsted's new Toolkit could be used (with care) for improving school self-evaluation and how inspectors are reacting to the webinars the inspectorate has recently organised. The statement Frank reads out may not be reflective of all who attend, but it is not the only negative report.
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39 min - Frank and Stan Chat SPOTLIGHT No.17This special SPOTLIGHT considers how human resources has changed over the years. Frank and Stan are fortunate to be able to chat with Juliet Caunt, a former Director of People in a large multi-academy trust and who now offers consultancy to a wide range of organisations. We consider how the role of HR has changed over the years, some of the difficulties senior managers experience and how HR professionals help all parties. We also reflect on how Juliet extended HR services in a rapidly growing trust as well as consider some research she is currently undertaking into how trusts use staff benefits to improve retention and recruitment. It's a good 'un. Enjoy.
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39 min - Frank and Stan Chat No. 232
Frank and Stan have been working hard to secure a slot in Paul Cherpeau's diary for close on a year. As the CEO of the Liverpool Chamber of Commerce he's a very busy colleague. Frank and Paul are members of the independent Liverpool Education Board and have discussed how best to improve the employability of young people in the city on many occasions.
The chat does not disappoint as Paul explains how the Chamber works to support local businesses in the Liverpool City Region by providing a strong networking community, advocating for their interests with government bodies, offering business support services like international trade assistance and skills development, and promoting inward investment to foster economic growth and create jobs. The Chamber understands its wider role in ensuring local people gain the knowledge, skills and attitudes to enter employment as well as to have an enjoyable and fulfilling life.
Paul was at Everton FC's new stadium yesterday, celebrating 175 years of the Chamber in the city with the Princess Royal. He explains how the Chamber has evolved and is continuing to play a crucial role in regenerating the city. He has some interesting insights into the role of entrepreneurship and how those who become successful without formal qualifications are important but they are the exception rather than the rule.
It's a fascinating chat. We are convinced many will gain a deeper understanding of the importance of effective business and education engagement for citizens of all ages.
He's agreed to come back in 2026.
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38 min
About Frank and Stan Chats
From the publisher's feed
Frank Norris and Stan Johnson have been friends since 1995. Both have had successful and lengthy careers in education. Frank was a very senior HMI with Ofsted for 11 years and was the CEO of the Coop…
Academies Trust for 6 years. Stan was seconded to Ofsted for a year and then returned to headship before working as a senior adviser with Lancashire LA. He has latterly led a successful education consultancy in the North West. Prior to Covid-19, the two gents would meet in Manchester for a pint or two but the pandemic put an end to that. On 1 May 2020, they recorded their first video chat as a way of recording their emotions and reactions to the pandemic. After putting the video on Youtube as a safe place to store it they realised that some followers began to appear. Now, with nearly 180 episodes and having chatted to Professors, CEOs, journalists, teachers, former HMI, education thinkers and Frank's Key Stage 1 leading daughter they have a loyal following and a rapidly increasing number of viewers. The reach of the Frank and Stan Chat stretches from Bogota to Ottawa to Greece and their first Live Edition was recorded in front of nearly 200 Headteachers in York. The Chats are not undertaken to attract followers or for financial reward (nothing is received and nothing will be received). It is a way of airing views on education matters between two professional friends with a focus on leadership. We are honoured to be invited to host the weekly chats on the Leader-connect website www.leader-connect.co.uk. The chats helped the gents get through the pandemic and they are delighted that they have been enjoyed by others and appear to have helped in developing leadership thought and actions. If you fancy being a guest then just reach out. We never post a video unless the guest is comfortable with it. So, it is a relatively risk-free environment. Thank you. Frank and Stan. PS. We were honoured to be identified as one of the Top 50 education and leadership podcasts in THE WORLD!!! We can't believe it, but it appears to be true.
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