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Free Sarah Jane Baker
Next demos:
10am 22nd August at Westminster Magistrates Court
10am 31st August City of London Magistrates Court
-
Free Sarah Jane Baker details:
Website: freesarahjanebaker.com
Messages of support can be emailed to: [email protected]
Crowdfunder: https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/p/free-sarah-jane-baker
Twitter: @freesarahjbaker
Instagram: @freesarahjanebaker
Facebook: Free Sarah Jane Baker
If you'd like to get involed or have ideas for the campiagn, get in touch through the website.
-
Follow Hell Island Reports' other work at:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hellislandreps/
Substack: https://hellislandreports.substack.com/
-
Music is MINDBREAK.018m by FREE.99:
Bandcamp: https://xfree99x.bandcamp.com/
Newgrounds: https://free99.newgrounds.com
Twitter: https://twitter.com/xfree99x
-
[Machine transcription, apologies for any inaccuracies.]
Welcome to the Hell Island Reports podcast. I'm. This episode features an interview with Anita, partner of activist, creative, and trans woman Sarah Jane Baker, who was recently recalled to prison. Anita is part of a campaign called Free Sarah Jane Baker, who are raising money to send both to Sarah in prison, as well as helping Anita with living and campaigning costs. You're also able and encouraged to send messages of support to Sarah through an email and court support. Demos are being organized by Free Sarah Jane Baker. Links in the show notes.
Before the interview, here's a quick timeline of recent events that surround Sarah. If you're not in the loop on the 8th of July, a London Trans Plus pride during an open mic session featuring other speakers. Sarah Jane Baker gave a speech, including the line "I was going to come here and be really fluffy and be really nice and say, Yeah, be really lovely and queer and gay. Nah, if you see a TERF, punch them in the f*****g face." After media coverage of Sarah's speech, Trans Plus Pride issued a statement highlighting the singling out of this moment to their event and what this says about the scrutiny and harassment of the trans community.
"We do not condone violence. We do not back a call to arms for violence of any kind. We do condone righteous anger and the right to the free speech that was expressed yesterday. We have and will continue to march in peace." Sarah speech was reported to the bastion of impartial justice, the Metropolitan Police. However, they initially decided not to pursue charges or to view Sarah's speech as a breach of her license for a previous offense.
However, this would change on the 12th of July, when Sarah Jane Baker was recalled on license and charged with using threatening or abusive words or behavior with intent to cause harassment, alarm or distress. On the same day her arrest was welcomed on Twitter by the Home Secretary, Suella Braverman, who said, "I'm glad the police have decided to investigate this incident at a trans pride event having initially closed it with no further action, I'm sure the police will consider the evidence carefully." Sarah has pleaded not guilty to this first charge. And as of the 17th of August, another charge against Sarah, that of intentionally encouraging the commission of an offense, is set to be lodged by prosecutors. Her next court appearance in London is set to be the 22nd of August. That's next Tuesday. And her trial is set to begin on the 31st of August. Now, her partner, Anita.
[INTERVIEW BEGINS]
K
Have you been in contact with Sarah at all?
Anita
Yes. Yes. So she's able to find me, which is really good. Yeah. So she's in quite frequent phone contact with me. Yeah, I haven't seen her, but May, very good to talk. So that's good.
K
That's good. And how is she doing?
Anita
Yeah, I think she's very much sort of up and down. It's really tough environment. So she's in Wandsworth jail and she's which is obviously a male jail and she's on a vulnerable prisoner's wing, which is got a lot of sex offenders on it. And so it's a really tough environment for her to be on. Being a trans woman.
Anita
Yeah. And so, yeah. So that's all really difficult. And then, you know, there's the fact that she's in jail. It's all really because she might know she was in jail. Society is out on license and had been doing really well. And I think to go back to jail for this reason just feels, you know, really unfair, really and upsetting when she's begun to make a life for herself outside of jail.
Anita
Yeah.
K
How was the demo today in London?
Anita
Yeah. So it was then it was time very much went on there. I'm going into court and then coming back out. So I wasn't there for the whole time. But but yeah, we had, we had a good group of people outside and yeah, it's just I think, really important space to show the outside world that people care about.
Anita
Sarah and also about the issues. And also for Sarah herself to see that people are supporting her. And so that was, that was good and that went well.
K
What kind of in terms of the Free Sarah Jane Baker organization, what kind of response have you had from the community and also the press?
Anita
Yeah, So we've had and the campaign really was started fairly organically with people who knew about her being a particularly in the trans community and wanting to support her. And since then we've managed to set up social media and our website and we've been having these demonstrations. It's just great. There've been a couple of other events that we've been invited to to tell other groups about the organization as well.
Anita
And you know, it seems quite a lot of people know about it. So one of the events I went to had to still that and a lot of the people I was talking to were already knew about the campaign and about everything that was going on with Sarah. So that's, you know, really positive. And in terms of the press and we've had some press coverage from gay times and some pinknews which has been supportive and being great, I think, you know, wanting to sort of reach out to people.
Anita
I think now as the campaign has become a bit more established and I guess sort of broadening the sentiment and but yeah, that's been that's been positive. And so yeah, I mean, so far it seems like it's potentially quite a vibrant campaign. We've had several events and we've got more things planned and Sarah's got a poetry book that's going to be published and in the next couple of weeks.
Anita
So I'm expecting there to be events coming out of that as well. And yeah, so there's this, there's been a lot to do.
K
MM That's good. There's been a lot of support though.
Anita
I mean yeah, Yeah. I mean the first, you know, when she first was arrested the number of people contacting me was this huge, you know, issues and contact with so many people who were wanting to help and wanting to find out what had happened and what to do and how she was safe. And yeah, there's just she's just in touch with so many people now.
Anita
It's just really in so many people who really care about her.
K
Hmm. So just to move on to actually sort of the the circumstances surrounding her arrest, quite a few people are speculating that it was in some way motivated after they reopen the investigation. Is that belief in in a motivation, something that you share?
Anita
I mean, I think that and you know what happened, she obviously made her speech at trans pride. And I think that you can see from the initial response from police and probation how something like that would normally be dealt with. So originally, the police didn't feel there was any need for further action and probation will say, of the visit.
Anita
And this wasn't something that she would need to be recalled for. And, you know, base agencies changed their mind. So she was then arrested and charged and we called and I think it seems pretty clear that the difference with Sarah is about things like Daily Mail articles and that when the police reopen the investigation and similar problem, then put out a tweet saying that she is glad about that and that she was sure that they would look at the evidence carefully.
Anita
I think the society side and I so I think that it to me, it looks as though this is something that is politically motivated and she's being treated differently because of the politics of this. I mean, I think this is part of part and parcel of the culture war that is focusing so much on trans people and also, you know, it doesn't affect anyone quite so much as it's affecting Sarah right now.
Anita
I think it is something that should be of interest to lots of people because if this is what can be done to Sarah, then that's, that's you know, it raises a question about what can happen to other people as well. And it's you know, I feel like it's it is all to do with the push against trans people in the trans community as a whole and, you know, coming down more and more harshly on on protesters and freedom of speech.
Anita
All of these issues, I think, are involved. And it's you know, it's not a thing, I guess, in isolation. It's not that they it's not all about Sarah, You know, it's in there. It's in the context of what's going on that's affecting our whole society. So you you know, I think the basic thing about solidarity is that if you allow people to get picked off, then it's bad for everybody.
Anita
And so it's it's really important for people to, you know, to be in solidarity with each other when something like this happens.
K
Yeah. Yeah. Are you getting a lot of you've talked a bit about like the support you've been getting certainly from the trans community. Have you been getting more intersectional support? Like is there any overlap with arrests, like the arrests of, like ecological protesters, like just oil and things like that?
Anita
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, people that are campaigning around trans issues are often campaigning about lots of different issues at the same time. So yeah, a lot of the people are also campaigning around environmental issues and human rights issues and, you know, things affecting migrants. So, yeah, I think that these things are all such as into why and that and you know, I know Sarah would say that actually it's not really about being trans, it's about freedom.
Anita
And I think that's true. I think you know, you can say it the other way that the the government are waging a culture war against lots of groups of people in society. The casino being treated as scapegoats for the fact the government is not doing a good job at all in terms of cutting services and their management of the economy.
Anita
And so, yeah, I think these things are all interlinked and you know, people that are campaigning on one issue are quite often campaigning on multiple different issues as well, because, you know, it is about people kind of having having that freedom and groups of people that sometimes, you know, I suppose the powers that be want us to look at people as being different.
Anita
And I think that's a really dehumanizing. But all sorts of people are sort of labeled as different, whether they're trans or migrants or know, I think the trans phobia has an awful lot in common with how the fiber as well and what affecting trans people is will affect the whole LGBTQ community as well.
K
I don't know how much you can speak to. I'm not sure how long you and Sarah have known each other.
Anita
Mm.
K
But after her release she became quite ubiquitous, almost in the London trans political scene. I mean, what point did you meet her in, in, in her doing that.
Anita
Yeah. So I met Sarah about a year after she was released, and. And I think Sarah's always been somebody to campaign, even when she was in jail, she was always writing letters to people and trying to to network with people as much as she could and trying to help people to stand up for their rights. So that's always been the, you know, things that she was interested in even before she came out of jail.
Anita
She wrote two books while she was in jail. And her art is political. So, you know, she's been getting things out and getting attention for ideas and for a long time. So I suppose it is natural that when she came out of jail, she's going to carry on doing that and carrying on campaigning. And I think doing that probably through lots of different means.
Anita
So, yeah, being on, being on podcasts and writing articles and in the past and being part of events and things that she would do, being part of protest, making speeches, and that she also supported people very much on a 1 to 1 level as well. So there was a lot of people in lots of different ways that she was in contact with who she would be supporting and trying to help, you know, in whatever way she could.
Anita
And I think I saw that a lot when she did when she was arrested, as a lot of people contacted me. And I sort of realizing that, you know, those people that whether it was talking to people or having met up with them or just having chats online, some people should be messaging for years and not even just people in this country, people in other countries as well.
Anita
And that felt, you know, she had really supported them and done a huge amount for them. So, yeah, I think she's she's done these things on lots and lots of different issues. And I'm not so different levels. And yeah, not just about trans people. I know she spent a lot of time with the SO Pictures Too campaign in particular.
Anita
She worked with BlackLivesMatter and Yeah. So and as you say, dealing with things around prisoners rights as well and so yeah she's I guess always been somebody that is interested in campaigning but also supporting people, you know, 1 to 1 as well as much as she could.
K
Mm. I've never really sort of talked to her for particularly long but like just going to vigils and protests in London, like she's very ubiquitous there and very present. So like Yeah. And then for her to suddenly not be after London trans pride is.
Anita
Yeah. I guess, I don't know. I suppose I've just seen things through my perspective I suppose of being have how and it's interesting to think about how she's seen maybe by people who don't know her well enough as you see in her giving speeches or whatever. So, yeah, I mean, I, I think she should certainly be glad to know that she's she's had a heart attack and she's, you know, as a person very engaging and and very creative.
Anita
So, you know, in different sort of environments. If we were somewhere, you know, has an event where people play music or something, then she'd be up on stage and playing guitar. And I think and she's a fantastic guitarist and she's also someone who I encourages. Other people say, you know, she wouldn't just be there performing, trying to get all the limelight herself.
Anita
She'd be encouraging other people who may be affected. Shall we center to come and jam with her? And in a checking if they know the song she's playing and, you know, the chords that she's that she's using and encouraging people. And, you know, similarly with with art, if she's got people around her who are photographers or artists, then, you know, should always be looking at what they're doing and encouraging people, I think, to to reach their potential.
Anita
She's not she's never somebody to try and put other people down. She's somebody to sort of encourage people to, you know, to to make the most of of the talents and creativity that they have as well. And yeah.
K
In terms of the Free Sarah Jane Baker organization, how has that organizing gone and how is that the the behind the scenes work of court support and and demos and things like that? How has that gone over the last couple of weeks?
Anita
Yeah. So it's I mean, I think partly because she has built up this network of people that she's been campaigning with and many of whom she knows personally, you know, over some time. And it's it's, it's not as though I've had to sort of go and try and build something from nothing. That is, there's a group of people who are really quite committed to it, do it, doing what they can, as I say, both to raise issues and to support Sarah.
Anita
And so I suppose there's a bit of a natural grief of people coming together to work on that. And you know, of course within that different people have got different levels that they're able to commit. But yeah, it's it's been, you know, a lot of people doing things together and there's obviously lots of practical things of designing fliers and doing social media and trying to network with people and and, you know, making banners and and all sorts of different things.
Anita
So yeah, so it's been work that's been done by a lot of people, not just not just one or two people. So, yeah, I mean, it's been busy, He's been really busy and, and he's it's something I suppose, that has happened in response to something. So it's, it's not just that I was a I long planned before we launched some they just, we literally had when you know, when we knew she was going to be in court the next day, we put a call out at 9:00 in the evening for people to get together, 10:00 the next morning.
Anita
So there was hardly any notice till and then people judge me. So this is and it's something obviously that's evolving because, I mean, today we found out that there's going to be an additional day in court. So obviously there has to be an additional demo. So yeah, so you have to sort of change what you're doing and be flexible and do things with little notice and, you know, and something that I expect will change and develop in time as we go on as well.
Anita
And so, you know, I mean, it's a vibrant campaign. It's been very busy, but I think there's good reason to think it will continue to to to grow and get stronger as we go along. Hmm.
K
That's really good. Well, what's next? I mean, there's the 31st for your demo and the actual trial beginning, isn't it?
Anita
Yeah. So what happened today is apparently the Crown wants to put an additional charge, which doesn't sound as they will make much difference. This is a similar sort of thing to watch out what what's already there and the fact that they want to do that means that she needs to be in court to plead guilty or not guilty.
Anita
And she was supposed to be in court today and that wasn't because. Yeah, the organization of the court system is the complete farce. So I think somebody didn't put her name on a list of people that would have been transferred from Wandsworth to come to court. And then somehow I think possibly because they thought she'd be in court in person, there then wasn't a videolink for her to be on video link either.
Anita
And you know so you have court discussing something when she's not even there which it always amazes me that when you have all of these very well educated and well dressed people speaking very politely in circumstances and it's such a complete ha, I don't know how they can keep their composure. I mean I that's yeah. You just think, wow, if you can't even get the person that the case is about to be able to attend and how you know you're supposed to be for people who are making these huge life changing decisions, but you can't even sort out your transport or if video.
Anita
I think it's just yeah, I don't know. You know, who'd be funny if it wasn't serious and chap But anyway, so you asking what's next. I think I'm going off on a tangent. So what that meant is that I needed an extra day in court, so that will be the 22nd. So that's, that's the next date that we have.
Anita
So that's Tuesday. So we've got a few days to put a demonstration together because we will have a demonstration outside court every day that Sandra is in court and and then after that it will be the trial date is the 31st of August. And so that's the next couple of things that we've got coming up. But I'm sure there'll be more to be announced soon.
K
No, I mean, I've never I haven't interacted well, I haven't interacts with the court system myself. But like people around me, I've never heard a good story about the courts running efficiently or effectively. So, yeah, yeah. I mean, I guess it's disgraceful considering this is all based on the police back like you turning on, on dropping the investigation anyway now.
Anita
Yeah. I mean it's, you know, I don't know, you sort of look at these people and it's all supposed to be about rules and laws and yet and how it's implemented just feels like it's arbitrary in I mean I know. Well we might say well what you expect, you know, but it just seems so blatant and and yet, you know, when you send somebody to prison, you have just a huge effect on their lives, obviously, and everybody around them.
Anita
And and it just doesn't seem I mean, when Sarah first was arrested, you know, she's in a prison police station initially, and then you get sent to the jail, some court, and there's literally no one can contact you. It's like she didn't have all sign numbers. I didn't know where she was. Her solicitors didn't know where she was.
Anita
Nobody knew where she was. And I think this is such a traumatic thing to happen to some of the day. And for someone to be taken away to somewhere and told that they can't make any contact with any of the people that care about them for days. And I just feel like there's I can't understand how if in any way you think that prison can rehabilitate people, how you think that's going to help anything.
Anita
And it just seems completely inhumane and utterly unnecessary. And and yet that's the norm. That's just what happens to people. Yeah. And there's so many people in prison with serious mental health difficulties and know it's just putting them into a situation that's really traumatizing and removing all of their support. And so, yeah, I find it it's I know I knew about a lot of these things before.
Anita
You know, what people have told me about the justice system and about prison, But to have the experience of somebody that you love dearly and just treated that way and, you know, is is something else really scary to me.
K
It makes makes the court support all the more important.
Anita
And yeah so I don't know what your question doesn't seem to come and.
K
Neither it's just a bit of attention Is that okay? I mean do you have any I mean, I can't imagine you you must be thinking about what it must be thinking because it far ahead with everything that's going on. But I mean, do you do you and or Sarah have sort of plans beyond the next month? Because I know there was talk somewhere about standing as an MP, Sarah doing that.
K
There's her poetry. Yeah. If there's anything else you're thinking about.
Anita
I'd say. And yeah, I mean, she wanted to send an MP in the next general election. I think she won't be able to stand. I don't think if she's in prison I believe you can stand if you're just going to be in prison for a short period of time. But she's on a life license. She's on what's on the life license and is now serving a life sentence again.
Anita
And I know she wouldn't be able to do that while she's in jail, but, you know, when she comes out and she would be able to stand in the next general election once she's out. And so, yeah, she has a Poochie book coming out. And I think we have plans as a campaign for a number of other such events.
Anita
But they're not completely confirmed yet. But we expect to have more to announce in the near future because, you know, Sarah is a very creative person and a lot of the people involved in the campaign are very creative as well. So, you know, we hope to do things like have exhibitions, poetry readings and other performances, different sorts of events over time, which hopefully will raise issue, raise funds and be enjoyable events in themselves as well.
Anita
So but it's yeah, it's obviously really difficult to plan because I don't know how long. Sarah is going to be in jail for and neither does she say, yeah, anyone that that doesn't know, it doesn't matter what the outcome is in terms of how long she's in prison and then if she's found not guilty in the current court proceedings, then she will still be in jail because she was recalled to jail and because she was under license and then she will be needing to apply for parole.
Anita
And it's not clear when she might be able to do that. I believe they've got a big backlog in terms of processing parole hearings. The nearest idea that I've had about that or been given is that it's likely to be March or April next year at the earliest. So yeah, so it's well, we'll have to have to see.
Anita
It's very difficult to plan when you don't know what's going down then. Yeah. Yeah. We'll have to have to see, you know, but at some point she'll be out again and I'm sure that she will be continuing to campaign.
K
I mean, that's everything I had written down. I don't know if there's anything else you want to cover.
Anita
And I don't know really. I feel I've done quite a lot of talking. I think just for people to sort of know how to get in touch with the campaign, that even if, you know, some of your listeners might not be based in London or even in the country and there's still things that you can do to support Sarah.
Anita
You can send messages of support. There's a link to do that as an email address and sharing social media, things like that. It's always very helpful and that, you know, there's a group of people in Brighton now who are setting up a campaign for her as well. I've got someone who's traveling back to Italy who will be talking to campaigning groups there.
Anita
And so, you know, I think there's there's whether someone is, you know, able to help with creative things or just help spread the word or send messages to her. And there's many, many different things that can be done to support her. So, you know, please, obviously to this is just please do get in touch and and and help help with the campaign And that it's not just for Sarah it's also to really build things about justice and about people, you know, people not being sent to jail for political reasons and and about trans rights.
Anita
And I guess the overarching thing is, is just about human liberation. And, you know, living in a society where people can be themselves. So, yeah, there's lots of lots of good reasons to get involved and lots of different ways that people can do something.
K
Okay. I mean, I'll be sure to have links to the campaign in Shownotes and all other section at the end of them out. I mean, if she.
Anita
Want to say one more thing, you probably just I know Sarah would want as well to just say to everybody that's involved in supporting her how much she appreciates it and that she loves you all. And yeah, I know she just me to pass on. Yeah.
[INTERVIEW ENDS]
Thank you so much to Anita for her time. Links to the website, the Crowdfunder social media and an email address to send messages of support can all be found in the show notes, but the main site is free. Sarah Jane Baker dot com. If you have ideas or want to get involved in the campaign, you can also message through the website if you're in London or able to travel the next demo's planned in support of Sarah are being held 10 a.m. on the 22nd of August.
K
That's next Tuesday a Westminster Magistrates Court and 10 a.m. on the 31st of August at the City of London Magistrates Court. Our opening and closing music is MindBreak.018m by free 99. It's not really about being trans, it's about freedom. Thanks for listening to Hell Island. More reports soon.
[END TRANSCRIPTION]
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hellislandreports.substack.com
View all episodes
By Hell Island ReportsNext demos:
10am 22nd August at Westminster Magistrates Court
10am 31st August City of London Magistrates Court
-
Free Sarah Jane Baker details:
Website: freesarahjanebaker.com
Messages of support can be emailed to: [email protected]
Crowdfunder: https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/p/free-sarah-jane-baker
Twitter: @freesarahjbaker
Instagram: @freesarahjanebaker
Facebook: Free Sarah Jane Baker
If you'd like to get involed or have ideas for the campiagn, get in touch through the website.
-
Follow Hell Island Reports' other work at:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hellislandreps/
Substack: https://hellislandreports.substack.com/
-
Music is MINDBREAK.018m by FREE.99:
Bandcamp: https://xfree99x.bandcamp.com/
Newgrounds: https://free99.newgrounds.com
Twitter: https://twitter.com/xfree99x
-
[Machine transcription, apologies for any inaccuracies.]
Welcome to the Hell Island Reports podcast. I'm. This episode features an interview with Anita, partner of activist, creative, and trans woman Sarah Jane Baker, who was recently recalled to prison. Anita is part of a campaign called Free Sarah Jane Baker, who are raising money to send both to Sarah in prison, as well as helping Anita with living and campaigning costs. You're also able and encouraged to send messages of support to Sarah through an email and court support. Demos are being organized by Free Sarah Jane Baker. Links in the show notes.
Before the interview, here's a quick timeline of recent events that surround Sarah. If you're not in the loop on the 8th of July, a London Trans Plus pride during an open mic session featuring other speakers. Sarah Jane Baker gave a speech, including the line "I was going to come here and be really fluffy and be really nice and say, Yeah, be really lovely and queer and gay. Nah, if you see a TERF, punch them in the f*****g face." After media coverage of Sarah's speech, Trans Plus Pride issued a statement highlighting the singling out of this moment to their event and what this says about the scrutiny and harassment of the trans community.
"We do not condone violence. We do not back a call to arms for violence of any kind. We do condone righteous anger and the right to the free speech that was expressed yesterday. We have and will continue to march in peace." Sarah speech was reported to the bastion of impartial justice, the Metropolitan Police. However, they initially decided not to pursue charges or to view Sarah's speech as a breach of her license for a previous offense.
However, this would change on the 12th of July, when Sarah Jane Baker was recalled on license and charged with using threatening or abusive words or behavior with intent to cause harassment, alarm or distress. On the same day her arrest was welcomed on Twitter by the Home Secretary, Suella Braverman, who said, "I'm glad the police have decided to investigate this incident at a trans pride event having initially closed it with no further action, I'm sure the police will consider the evidence carefully." Sarah has pleaded not guilty to this first charge. And as of the 17th of August, another charge against Sarah, that of intentionally encouraging the commission of an offense, is set to be lodged by prosecutors. Her next court appearance in London is set to be the 22nd of August. That's next Tuesday. And her trial is set to begin on the 31st of August. Now, her partner, Anita.
[INTERVIEW BEGINS]
K
Have you been in contact with Sarah at all?
Anita
Yes. Yes. So she's able to find me, which is really good. Yeah. So she's in quite frequent phone contact with me. Yeah, I haven't seen her, but May, very good to talk. So that's good.
K
That's good. And how is she doing?
Anita
Yeah, I think she's very much sort of up and down. It's really tough environment. So she's in Wandsworth jail and she's which is obviously a male jail and she's on a vulnerable prisoner's wing, which is got a lot of sex offenders on it. And so it's a really tough environment for her to be on. Being a trans woman.
Anita
Yeah. And so, yeah. So that's all really difficult. And then, you know, there's the fact that she's in jail. It's all really because she might know she was in jail. Society is out on license and had been doing really well. And I think to go back to jail for this reason just feels, you know, really unfair, really and upsetting when she's begun to make a life for herself outside of jail.
Anita
Yeah.
K
How was the demo today in London?
Anita
Yeah. So it was then it was time very much went on there. I'm going into court and then coming back out. So I wasn't there for the whole time. But but yeah, we had, we had a good group of people outside and yeah, it's just I think, really important space to show the outside world that people care about.
Anita
Sarah and also about the issues. And also for Sarah herself to see that people are supporting her. And so that was, that was good and that went well.
K
What kind of in terms of the Free Sarah Jane Baker organization, what kind of response have you had from the community and also the press?
Anita
Yeah, So we've had and the campaign really was started fairly organically with people who knew about her being a particularly in the trans community and wanting to support her. And since then we've managed to set up social media and our website and we've been having these demonstrations. It's just great. There've been a couple of other events that we've been invited to to tell other groups about the organization as well.
Anita
And you know, it seems quite a lot of people know about it. So one of the events I went to had to still that and a lot of the people I was talking to were already knew about the campaign and about everything that was going on with Sarah. So that's, you know, really positive. And in terms of the press and we've had some press coverage from gay times and some pinknews which has been supportive and being great, I think, you know, wanting to sort of reach out to people.
Anita
I think now as the campaign has become a bit more established and I guess sort of broadening the sentiment and but yeah, that's been that's been positive. And so yeah, I mean, so far it seems like it's potentially quite a vibrant campaign. We've had several events and we've got more things planned and Sarah's got a poetry book that's going to be published and in the next couple of weeks.
Anita
So I'm expecting there to be events coming out of that as well. And yeah, so there's this, there's been a lot to do.
K
MM That's good. There's been a lot of support though.
Anita
I mean yeah, Yeah. I mean the first, you know, when she first was arrested the number of people contacting me was this huge, you know, issues and contact with so many people who were wanting to help and wanting to find out what had happened and what to do and how she was safe. And yeah, there's just she's just in touch with so many people now.
Anita
It's just really in so many people who really care about her.
K
Hmm. So just to move on to actually sort of the the circumstances surrounding her arrest, quite a few people are speculating that it was in some way motivated after they reopen the investigation. Is that belief in in a motivation, something that you share?
Anita
I mean, I think that and you know what happened, she obviously made her speech at trans pride. And I think that you can see from the initial response from police and probation how something like that would normally be dealt with. So originally, the police didn't feel there was any need for further action and probation will say, of the visit.
Anita
And this wasn't something that she would need to be recalled for. And, you know, base agencies changed their mind. So she was then arrested and charged and we called and I think it seems pretty clear that the difference with Sarah is about things like Daily Mail articles and that when the police reopen the investigation and similar problem, then put out a tweet saying that she is glad about that and that she was sure that they would look at the evidence carefully.
Anita
I think the society side and I so I think that it to me, it looks as though this is something that is politically motivated and she's being treated differently because of the politics of this. I mean, I think this is part of part and parcel of the culture war that is focusing so much on trans people and also, you know, it doesn't affect anyone quite so much as it's affecting Sarah right now.
Anita
I think it is something that should be of interest to lots of people because if this is what can be done to Sarah, then that's, that's you know, it raises a question about what can happen to other people as well. And it's you know, I feel like it's it is all to do with the push against trans people in the trans community as a whole and, you know, coming down more and more harshly on on protesters and freedom of speech.
Anita
All of these issues, I think, are involved. And it's you know, it's not a thing, I guess, in isolation. It's not that they it's not all about Sarah, You know, it's in there. It's in the context of what's going on that's affecting our whole society. So you you know, I think the basic thing about solidarity is that if you allow people to get picked off, then it's bad for everybody.
Anita
And so it's it's really important for people to, you know, to be in solidarity with each other when something like this happens.
K
Yeah. Yeah. Are you getting a lot of you've talked a bit about like the support you've been getting certainly from the trans community. Have you been getting more intersectional support? Like is there any overlap with arrests, like the arrests of, like ecological protesters, like just oil and things like that?
Anita
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, people that are campaigning around trans issues are often campaigning about lots of different issues at the same time. So yeah, a lot of the people are also campaigning around environmental issues and human rights issues and, you know, things affecting migrants. So, yeah, I think that these things are all such as into why and that and you know, I know Sarah would say that actually it's not really about being trans, it's about freedom.
Anita
And I think that's true. I think you know, you can say it the other way that the the government are waging a culture war against lots of groups of people in society. The casino being treated as scapegoats for the fact the government is not doing a good job at all in terms of cutting services and their management of the economy.
Anita
And so, yeah, I think these things are all interlinked and you know, people that are campaigning on one issue are quite often campaigning on multiple different issues as well, because, you know, it is about people kind of having having that freedom and groups of people that sometimes, you know, I suppose the powers that be want us to look at people as being different.
Anita
And I think that's a really dehumanizing. But all sorts of people are sort of labeled as different, whether they're trans or migrants or know, I think the trans phobia has an awful lot in common with how the fiber as well and what affecting trans people is will affect the whole LGBTQ community as well.
K
I don't know how much you can speak to. I'm not sure how long you and Sarah have known each other.
Anita
Mm.
K
But after her release she became quite ubiquitous, almost in the London trans political scene. I mean, what point did you meet her in, in, in her doing that.
Anita
Yeah. So I met Sarah about a year after she was released, and. And I think Sarah's always been somebody to campaign, even when she was in jail, she was always writing letters to people and trying to to network with people as much as she could and trying to help people to stand up for their rights. So that's always been the, you know, things that she was interested in even before she came out of jail.
Anita
She wrote two books while she was in jail. And her art is political. So, you know, she's been getting things out and getting attention for ideas and for a long time. So I suppose it is natural that when she came out of jail, she's going to carry on doing that and carrying on campaigning. And I think doing that probably through lots of different means.
Anita
So, yeah, being on, being on podcasts and writing articles and in the past and being part of events and things that she would do, being part of protest, making speeches, and that she also supported people very much on a 1 to 1 level as well. So there was a lot of people in lots of different ways that she was in contact with who she would be supporting and trying to help, you know, in whatever way she could.
Anita
And I think I saw that a lot when she did when she was arrested, as a lot of people contacted me. And I sort of realizing that, you know, those people that whether it was talking to people or having met up with them or just having chats online, some people should be messaging for years and not even just people in this country, people in other countries as well.
Anita
And that felt, you know, she had really supported them and done a huge amount for them. So, yeah, I think she's she's done these things on lots and lots of different issues. And I'm not so different levels. And yeah, not just about trans people. I know she spent a lot of time with the SO Pictures Too campaign in particular.
Anita
She worked with BlackLivesMatter and Yeah. So and as you say, dealing with things around prisoners rights as well and so yeah she's I guess always been somebody that is interested in campaigning but also supporting people, you know, 1 to 1 as well as much as she could.
K
Mm. I've never really sort of talked to her for particularly long but like just going to vigils and protests in London, like she's very ubiquitous there and very present. So like Yeah. And then for her to suddenly not be after London trans pride is.
Anita
Yeah. I guess, I don't know. I suppose I've just seen things through my perspective I suppose of being have how and it's interesting to think about how she's seen maybe by people who don't know her well enough as you see in her giving speeches or whatever. So, yeah, I mean, I, I think she should certainly be glad to know that she's she's had a heart attack and she's, you know, as a person very engaging and and very creative.
Anita
So, you know, in different sort of environments. If we were somewhere, you know, has an event where people play music or something, then she'd be up on stage and playing guitar. And I think and she's a fantastic guitarist and she's also someone who I encourages. Other people say, you know, she wouldn't just be there performing, trying to get all the limelight herself.
Anita
She'd be encouraging other people who may be affected. Shall we center to come and jam with her? And in a checking if they know the song she's playing and, you know, the chords that she's that she's using and encouraging people. And, you know, similarly with with art, if she's got people around her who are photographers or artists, then, you know, should always be looking at what they're doing and encouraging people, I think, to to reach their potential.
Anita
She's not she's never somebody to try and put other people down. She's somebody to sort of encourage people to, you know, to to make the most of of the talents and creativity that they have as well. And yeah.
K
In terms of the Free Sarah Jane Baker organization, how has that organizing gone and how is that the the behind the scenes work of court support and and demos and things like that? How has that gone over the last couple of weeks?
Anita
Yeah. So it's I mean, I think partly because she has built up this network of people that she's been campaigning with and many of whom she knows personally, you know, over some time. And it's it's, it's not as though I've had to sort of go and try and build something from nothing. That is, there's a group of people who are really quite committed to it, do it, doing what they can, as I say, both to raise issues and to support Sarah.
Anita
And so I suppose there's a bit of a natural grief of people coming together to work on that. And you know, of course within that different people have got different levels that they're able to commit. But yeah, it's it's been, you know, a lot of people doing things together and there's obviously lots of practical things of designing fliers and doing social media and trying to network with people and and, you know, making banners and and all sorts of different things.
Anita
So yeah, so it's been work that's been done by a lot of people, not just not just one or two people. So, yeah, I mean, it's been busy, He's been really busy and, and he's it's something I suppose, that has happened in response to something. So it's, it's not just that I was a I long planned before we launched some they just, we literally had when you know, when we knew she was going to be in court the next day, we put a call out at 9:00 in the evening for people to get together, 10:00 the next morning.
Anita
So there was hardly any notice till and then people judge me. So this is and it's something obviously that's evolving because, I mean, today we found out that there's going to be an additional day in court. So obviously there has to be an additional demo. So yeah, so you have to sort of change what you're doing and be flexible and do things with little notice and, you know, and something that I expect will change and develop in time as we go on as well.
Anita
And so, you know, I mean, it's a vibrant campaign. It's been very busy, but I think there's good reason to think it will continue to to to grow and get stronger as we go along. Hmm.
K
That's really good. Well, what's next? I mean, there's the 31st for your demo and the actual trial beginning, isn't it?
Anita
Yeah. So what happened today is apparently the Crown wants to put an additional charge, which doesn't sound as they will make much difference. This is a similar sort of thing to watch out what what's already there and the fact that they want to do that means that she needs to be in court to plead guilty or not guilty.
Anita
And she was supposed to be in court today and that wasn't because. Yeah, the organization of the court system is the complete farce. So I think somebody didn't put her name on a list of people that would have been transferred from Wandsworth to come to court. And then somehow I think possibly because they thought she'd be in court in person, there then wasn't a videolink for her to be on video link either.
Anita
And you know so you have court discussing something when she's not even there which it always amazes me that when you have all of these very well educated and well dressed people speaking very politely in circumstances and it's such a complete ha, I don't know how they can keep their composure. I mean I that's yeah. You just think, wow, if you can't even get the person that the case is about to be able to attend and how you know you're supposed to be for people who are making these huge life changing decisions, but you can't even sort out your transport or if video.
Anita
I think it's just yeah, I don't know. You know, who'd be funny if it wasn't serious and chap But anyway, so you asking what's next. I think I'm going off on a tangent. So what that meant is that I needed an extra day in court, so that will be the 22nd. So that's, that's the next date that we have.
Anita
So that's Tuesday. So we've got a few days to put a demonstration together because we will have a demonstration outside court every day that Sandra is in court and and then after that it will be the trial date is the 31st of August. And so that's the next couple of things that we've got coming up. But I'm sure there'll be more to be announced soon.
K
No, I mean, I've never I haven't interacted well, I haven't interacts with the court system myself. But like people around me, I've never heard a good story about the courts running efficiently or effectively. So, yeah, yeah. I mean, I guess it's disgraceful considering this is all based on the police back like you turning on, on dropping the investigation anyway now.
Anita
Yeah. I mean it's, you know, I don't know, you sort of look at these people and it's all supposed to be about rules and laws and yet and how it's implemented just feels like it's arbitrary in I mean I know. Well we might say well what you expect, you know, but it just seems so blatant and and yet, you know, when you send somebody to prison, you have just a huge effect on their lives, obviously, and everybody around them.
Anita
And and it just doesn't seem I mean, when Sarah first was arrested, you know, she's in a prison police station initially, and then you get sent to the jail, some court, and there's literally no one can contact you. It's like she didn't have all sign numbers. I didn't know where she was. Her solicitors didn't know where she was.
Anita
Nobody knew where she was. And I think this is such a traumatic thing to happen to some of the day. And for someone to be taken away to somewhere and told that they can't make any contact with any of the people that care about them for days. And I just feel like there's I can't understand how if in any way you think that prison can rehabilitate people, how you think that's going to help anything.
Anita
And it just seems completely inhumane and utterly unnecessary. And and yet that's the norm. That's just what happens to people. Yeah. And there's so many people in prison with serious mental health difficulties and know it's just putting them into a situation that's really traumatizing and removing all of their support. And so, yeah, I find it it's I know I knew about a lot of these things before.
Anita
You know, what people have told me about the justice system and about prison, But to have the experience of somebody that you love dearly and just treated that way and, you know, is is something else really scary to me.
K
It makes makes the court support all the more important.
Anita
And yeah so I don't know what your question doesn't seem to come and.
K
Neither it's just a bit of attention Is that okay? I mean do you have any I mean, I can't imagine you you must be thinking about what it must be thinking because it far ahead with everything that's going on. But I mean, do you do you and or Sarah have sort of plans beyond the next month? Because I know there was talk somewhere about standing as an MP, Sarah doing that.
K
There's her poetry. Yeah. If there's anything else you're thinking about.
Anita
I'd say. And yeah, I mean, she wanted to send an MP in the next general election. I think she won't be able to stand. I don't think if she's in prison I believe you can stand if you're just going to be in prison for a short period of time. But she's on a life license. She's on what's on the life license and is now serving a life sentence again.
Anita
And I know she wouldn't be able to do that while she's in jail, but, you know, when she comes out and she would be able to stand in the next general election once she's out. And so, yeah, she has a Poochie book coming out. And I think we have plans as a campaign for a number of other such events.
Anita
But they're not completely confirmed yet. But we expect to have more to announce in the near future because, you know, Sarah is a very creative person and a lot of the people involved in the campaign are very creative as well. So, you know, we hope to do things like have exhibitions, poetry readings and other performances, different sorts of events over time, which hopefully will raise issue, raise funds and be enjoyable events in themselves as well.
Anita
So but it's yeah, it's obviously really difficult to plan because I don't know how long. Sarah is going to be in jail for and neither does she say, yeah, anyone that that doesn't know, it doesn't matter what the outcome is in terms of how long she's in prison and then if she's found not guilty in the current court proceedings, then she will still be in jail because she was recalled to jail and because she was under license and then she will be needing to apply for parole.
Anita
And it's not clear when she might be able to do that. I believe they've got a big backlog in terms of processing parole hearings. The nearest idea that I've had about that or been given is that it's likely to be March or April next year at the earliest. So yeah, so it's well, we'll have to have to see.
Anita
It's very difficult to plan when you don't know what's going down then. Yeah. Yeah. We'll have to have to see, you know, but at some point she'll be out again and I'm sure that she will be continuing to campaign.
K
I mean, that's everything I had written down. I don't know if there's anything else you want to cover.
Anita
And I don't know really. I feel I've done quite a lot of talking. I think just for people to sort of know how to get in touch with the campaign, that even if, you know, some of your listeners might not be based in London or even in the country and there's still things that you can do to support Sarah.
Anita
You can send messages of support. There's a link to do that as an email address and sharing social media, things like that. It's always very helpful and that, you know, there's a group of people in Brighton now who are setting up a campaign for her as well. I've got someone who's traveling back to Italy who will be talking to campaigning groups there.
Anita
And so, you know, I think there's there's whether someone is, you know, able to help with creative things or just help spread the word or send messages to her. And there's many, many different things that can be done to support her. So, you know, please, obviously to this is just please do get in touch and and and help help with the campaign And that it's not just for Sarah it's also to really build things about justice and about people, you know, people not being sent to jail for political reasons and and about trans rights.
Anita
And I guess the overarching thing is, is just about human liberation. And, you know, living in a society where people can be themselves. So, yeah, there's lots of lots of good reasons to get involved and lots of different ways that people can do something.
K
Okay. I mean, I'll be sure to have links to the campaign in Shownotes and all other section at the end of them out. I mean, if she.
Anita
Want to say one more thing, you probably just I know Sarah would want as well to just say to everybody that's involved in supporting her how much she appreciates it and that she loves you all. And yeah, I know she just me to pass on. Yeah.
[INTERVIEW ENDS]
Thank you so much to Anita for her time. Links to the website, the Crowdfunder social media and an email address to send messages of support can all be found in the show notes, but the main site is free. Sarah Jane Baker dot com. If you have ideas or want to get involved in the campaign, you can also message through the website if you're in London or able to travel the next demo's planned in support of Sarah are being held 10 a.m. on the 22nd of August.
K
That's next Tuesday a Westminster Magistrates Court and 10 a.m. on the 31st of August at the City of London Magistrates Court. Our opening and closing music is MindBreak.018m by free 99. It's not really about being trans, it's about freedom. Thanks for listening to Hell Island. More reports soon.
[END TRANSCRIPTION]
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