In this episode of Gangland Wire, retired intelligence detective Gary Jenkins welcomes a special guest—Don Tabak, a former LAPD homicide detective whose life story bridges the world of real crime and creative storytelling.

With decades on the force, Det. Don Tabak shares the emotional and technical complexities of working on some of Los Angeles’s most brutal homicide cases. He recounts haunting moments from the field, including a harrowing investigation involving a kidnapped woman who miraculously survived an attempted murder. Don walks us through the steps that led to justice—and the toll that work takes on those who pursue it.

After retiring from law enforcement, Don founded a private investigation firm that defends police officers and municipalities. However, his career took a surprising turn when a Hollywood producer approached him about adapting his real-life cases. That partnership gave rise to The Wiggle Room—an interactive crime-solving experience where audiences step into the role of investigator, uncover clues, and solve cases rooted in reality. It’s part thriller, part education, and all authentic.

The conversation also touches on Don’s take on the O.J. Simpson case, offering an insider’s look at how public pressure and procedural missteps shaped one of the most infamous trials in American history. He explains the razor-thin margin between justice and error, and why evidence integrity remains a detective’s most crucial tool.

Finally, Don Tebak unpacks the psychology behind effective interrogation, revealing how detectives walk the fine line between coaxing out the truth and understanding the emotional terrain of a suspect’s mind.

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Transcript

[0:40] Tell us what you’re doing when you’re retirement. Well, I opened up a private investigations business, Gary, when I left. And I primarily do police officer and municipality defense for critical incidents. So a lot of the things that happen across the country. After the fact, the lawsuit is filed, I’ll be brought in to re-interview witnesses, talk to the officers, and try to mitigate what’s going on with the lawsuit. And if the officer is in trouble with that as well, we’ll represent the officer to try to make sure that we hopefully can clear him of any wrongdoing. You also, now how’d you get involved with this media business, the TV business? I got contacted throughout my career because of LA and some of the cases that we’ve handled in the past. It’s media-friendly between law enforcement. So when I left about five years ago, A producer who had known a friend of mine had given this guy my name about, yeah, Don’s had some unusual cases and worked this and that and whatever. And he called and we put together a couple of things that he wanted to try to bring to Discovery or Netflix in regards to some of my murders that I handled.

[1:49] And however, they didn’t work out or what have you. So about a year ago, he came up with a concept called The Wiggle Room. And this is a very small audience like an old nightclub room in a hollywood or in a hotel here in hollywood and it’s basically like my part of this is to bring in me talk about a couple of my cases um it’s interactive there’s a live audience there and then at the end of the second half of this we’ll talk about one of my crime scenes and let the people have a shot at it and trying to figure out what happened and who did it and did they have enough probable cause of good this and that and really get them an idea on how frustrating it is sometimes working some of these murders.

[2:30] Interesting. So tell us about your police experience in this. Were you assigned to the LAPD homicide division or robbery homicide? How does that break down? Yes, sir. I started out as a young detective. I’ve worked a number of detective divisions. LAPD has 18 geographic divisions in the city of Los Angeles, and each one has a homicide unit. Although now it’s centralized. But I eventually worked my way up to starting my own homicide unit. It was an arson bombing homicide unit. We worked in the same area as robbery homicide. Worked a buttload of cases over the 12 years that I worked murders before I retired. And handled all kinds of different things. Got involved with some phenomenal cases. I thank God wasn’t here when OJ was being tried. It was my unit that did that. And just in the give and take of the murders in Los Angeles back in the day, there’s a lot of interesting cases that we talk about in this crime scene live. I bet. So was that out of a division station, the Hollenbeck station? No, sir. It was out of our detective headquarters division, DHD. They call it the same area that our RV homicide division is in. Okay. So that’s down at Parker Center? The specialized unit, yeah, it was. Yeah, downtown, the central. Okay. So you were the big boys compared to them. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. That’s how we look at it, don’t we?

[3:54] That’s how we look at it. You know, that’s how it is. So I wasn’t too varsity. I was kind of like between JV and varsity. Okay, all right. We all want to make the varsity on the PD. A lot of people don’t understand that out there, the breakdown between different units, but we all want to make that first team. I’m a working B, Gary. Then some of those guys kind of like kick back on their laurels. The Hollywood detective. That’s where I started.

[4:20] Tell us about one of your early cases that you remember that was particularly interesting. One of the most grave cases I ever handled, Gary, was a young female that ended up living, but her backstory is pretty amazing.

[4:38] She was the executive assistant to Wang Corporation. And Wayne was one of the first commercial-produced computers, word processing computers. And she had dropped her boss off at LAX and was taking his Porsche 925 prototype car back to where their offices were. And while stopped at a light on Sepulveda and 71st, right down the street from the airport, she was rear-ended on a very soft collision from behind. And she got out of the car. She walked back. He exchanged information. And one of the suspects took a gun in her belly. He said, get in the car. They put her back in the car. And for the next two days, they brutally raped, beaten, sold her for rock cocaine. And two days after the fact, they took her to an alley in South Central Los Angeles, dragged her out of the car.

[5:33] One suspect punched her in the face, knocking her to the ground. And my other suspect put two bullets in the back of her head with a 38 caliber, um, revolver. Wow. She waited. For a second until she heard the car leave, this woman got up and walked a block and a half to an a.m. p.m. Mini-mart and asked the clerk to call the police. And then she collapsed. She was saved by surgery. For the next literally 20 hours, we worked this case day and night. We ultimately found both suspects.

[6:09] And to hear this woman testify on a stand about what it was like having these two bullets shot in the back of her head is the most chilling, sad thing that I think I’ve had. To this day, I talked to her like it happened yesterday. She was an amazing woman. And the ironic part about this, Gary, is she wasn’t married at the time. And after everything had happened, and I only stayed in contact with, I probably handled 50 of my own murders and not 100 total. And you lose back in the 70s and 80s and early 90s. Man, this place, there was 1,200 murders in the city of Los Angeles by themselves. So you didn’t get to stay in contact with a lot of people. But I did with her for a couple of years. Then eventually I lost contact. Both the suspects were found guilty. Sentenced of 480 some odd years each in prison. Four years ago, Thanksgiving Eve, I got a call. And I’m sure you can attest to this or feel for this. It was a male, a young male. And he said, are you Don Tabak? And I said, yeah. And he goes, were you the detective that handled my mother, Carol Lepac’s shooting? And my hair, like right now, the hair on my head is standing up. I went, I did. Who are you? And he goes, my name’s Ryan Narai, and I am Carol’s son.

[7:25] And like, whoa, wait, what? So this was 33 years after this case had happened. She had passed away about a year before this, so three, four years ago. And Ryan wanted to find out exactly what had happened to his mother. She only articulated parts of what she called the event. And he wanted to find out. She became a conservationist up in Montana and divorced the husband. and it was just her and her son for a number of years. So Ryan came out to Los Angeles, a wonderful kid, looked almost exactly like his mom as I remember her. I took him to every spot that we found where she had been taken and then ultimately to the alley where she was shot. And it just, everybody that I’ve talked to, no one has had an experience like that where all these years later, this case came back tenfold to me because of her son. In September of 2024, he wrote an article that Esquire magazine published, and it said, the bullet in the back of my mother’s head. And it talks about my role into it, his role with his mother.

[8:36] Just an amazing case on how everything came together that we found so much to be able to convict these two animals of one which Gary just got out of prison last October. Wow. Floored me that they allowed him to get out. So I talk about that case because I was very, very close to it because of just the depravity and the torture that this woman went through. And then when they tell her, all right, we’re going to kick you out, we’re going to release you.

[9:06] And to humiliate her by punching her in the face and then killing, just shoot her, right? Don’t sit there and defame her and all. So it’s a case that’s close to me. And like I said, came back all these years later through her son. So it’s a pretty amazing story. It is. Now, a case like that. Now, she didn’t know who these guys were. No. Did you have witnesses quickly, get a license plate? How does that, does that somebody drop a dime? Did they start bragging their friends? These are some of the ways that this happens. How did that case start coming, unfolding? Well, we had to find where the whole incident took place by LAX. And we were able to talk to her. The responding officers were able to talk to her and she was able to get out before she passed out that she was hit from behind near LAX and that they had stolen her car, but they had hit her in a small Toyota Corolla, I think it was. They found the car. You know, the broadcast started going out. They found the vehicle.

[10:08] We interviewed her after surgery some hours after this and she was able to articulate that she thought she was in South Central Los Angeles and she thought, One of her suspects or one of the kidnappers was a gang member because he was talking about a role in 60s or a role in 20s. And that’s a very big Compton gang out of LAPD crash units, which was our gang units at the time, saturated. And I mean, they hit it hard trying to find, you know, somebody that knew something about this. And you know from yourself, sir, that you’re out there and you’re pounding ground. There’s a lot of pressure on these dope fiends and a lot of pressure on these gangs. They want to give up something so you can get the cops out of your way and move over to someone else. So we found where she was taken by good old-fashioned uniformed police work, by stopping suspects and basically letting them know that this isn’t going to be taken lightly. Wang himself was just absolutely pissed off about this happening to his secretary after he moved his headquarters to L.A., calling Darrell Gates, our chief at the time, demanding, you know, the entire department mobile. We almost did. We found a dope house at 85th Street and Wadsworth Avenue in South Central Los Angeles. And an individual by the name of Slim gave us information on the slide that said, yeah, I might have seen those two guys with a white chick here about eight o’clock last night or two nights ago. Right. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[11:37] So that’s the first piece of it. And we got their nicknames, their street names. Yeah. We get called in, I guess it was 8, 12, 15 hours after the initial kidnapping. It’s just a matter of putting this, trying to get the timeline right, first of all. But it was all by a matter of LAPD patrol, LAPD crash, other homicide officers that were working Venice Division at the time where I was.

[12:03] I’m just getting out there for two and a half days, well, actually about a day and a half of actually hitting the street. We were able to, we were just behind finding each place that they went. You hit one place and they have stuff to say and you hit the other place and they have stuff to say. Yeah. So I’ll tell you something that was, this woman had a will to live, Gary, and that’s what it’s all about. She refuses to come. The torture that she went through, she was bound and destined to survive this. After everything was done in LA and hours before she was shot, she was taken to a hotel in Anaheim, California, near Disneyland. And she was shoved down in the hatch compartment of the car. Suspects are driving. She remembers looking up out of the window, and she saw the Matterhorn ride from Disneyland.

[12:54] And so she knew she was in Anaheim. And then she started counting to herself the number of minutes going by 60s. until the car stopped. And it was 13 minutes. When we talked to her and found about this, we went and we went to every hotel we could find within 13 minutes of the Matterhorn. And we found the hotel that she was taking. And she talked about a black and white tile on the floor of the bathroom. They allowed her to go to the bathroom. We found that room. We found the manager that at the time couldn’t identify the two male suspects. We took a photo lineup to him after we had captured him, couldn’t ID him. And in the trial, Gary, he ID’d these two guys sitting at the defense desk. Well, you know how that came across, right? The defense attorney. It must be them. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[13:44] The judge allowed it in. He allowed the IV in. Oh, yeah. I don’t know if it was stacked or it was just a good ID. But everything came together. Fingerprints, we got off their car. Okay. Fingerprints off of the car that they stole. Great eyewitness, well, not eyewitness, but great testimony for witnesses that were in the houses that they went to, the crack houses. We found an individual that they sold to him, her, for sex, for rock cocaine. He felt bad for her and was trying to get her out of there, but they interrupted him. So he wasn’t going to say anything because he was another gangster.

[14:24] But because of the gravity of this thing and knowing that he was going to go to prison with everybody we talked to, someone’s going to prison for the rest of their life on this thing. So eventually he identified our second guy. On the end of the second day, we’re driving down a street in L.A. My partner was somebody else. I was with my boss who was not the sharpest guy in the world. And I think I see my suspect number two sitting on a bus bench and he’s nodding like this. So get out of the car, walk around him. Prone him out, you know, at gunpoint. And as we were walking up to the bus stop, another individual walked away from it, passed me and says, that’s the man you’re looking for. Yeah. So it was, you know, again, as a cop, when you’re hearing that and you go, okay, we now know this is the guy. Yeah. It was a phenomenal case just because we were able to put so much together and help her as much as we did. Ironically, with the two bullets in her head, one exited out of her neck that was at the scene. The other one lodged between both spheres of her brain. They weren’t able to operate on her, but the only residual effect that she had was she slurred words a little bit and she walked with a little bit of a limp. And that was it. So it wasn’t her time to go. And she ended up living a great number of years and she ended up dying of cancer, unfortunately.

[15:49] But there is no more courageous woman than that woman. She’s a hero of mine. That’s a hell of a story. So that bullet was lies in her brain until she died. Yeah. I’ll be darned. I’ve never heard of that before. Wow. Did everything that worked out. And I’ve handled so many different murders, but there’s always those two. Like you know, your case that you handled, there’s always those one or two that will always be indelibly asked in your mind because of just how it played out. It just starts falling. Once it starts falling. Oh, yeah, exactly.

[16:19] It starts falling and it starts falling and it starts falling. When it, when it works like that, you know, it’s working, it’s working. Many times you start down a path, it’ll sound real good. And then all of a sudden it’s dead and you realize, oh man, oh man, I got to step back. You spent a number of hours on that lead. This is the lead and it blows up in your face.

[16:41] Yeah. And this had that, that element to it, but it was just after we got through that initial phasing of it that’s when everything started falling down like you just said yeah i see how you got them convicted you did you get the gun too did you find the gun no never found the gun but you had the cars you had their fingerprints you probably had this was before dna yeah but you had fingerprints it sounds like we did and some of those witnesses yeah that hotel guy ended up being huge for us and as bad as he and i thought he just didn’t want to get involved and yet you know he came to excuse me he came to court and uh testified and when he pointed those two guys out and of course the defense attorneys went with them with the full line but you didn’t identify him at that time but you’re identifying him this time and he just said that’s them there you know i don’t remember the pictures as well as i do about them sitting there yeah so yeah pretty amazing case and in his defense there is a difference in looking at somebody live than I’ve been looking at one of those pictures. I’ve been showed photo lineups like, I don’t know, man. I know I saw that guy. That was probably the guy I saw about 30 minutes ago, but I don’t know.

[17:52] Yeah, and like I said, the Esquire magazine piece that he wrote about it really articulated it from his view, from what she had talked about it over the years that she lived and was productive, and then before she passed away. Wow, that is a heck of a story, boy. It was a good one. We love it when a plan comes together, I know that. Yeah, you know the feeling. When you bring a case like that together, when the jury comes back and they’re out like eight seconds, it took them long enough to go out of the courtroom, come right back in, and convict them on every one of the 480 counts on each of them. You feel good about the hours that you were away from your family. And it won’t replace at that time what happened to her, but at least justice was served for her. And that’s our job as law enforcement guys, right? So now what would be a case that you would use in the wriggle room? What would be a case example of that that you would throw at people? Well, we start out because everybody knew about O.J. Simpson. And, you know, that’s our first thing we talk about. And what’s ironic is we premiered last weekend.

[19:08] And I have always had distractors about Simpson’s case. There’s a lot of people out there that thought he was not guilty. so of the 45 50 people that were in this room after the video montage played i said how many in here raise your hands if you think oj sipson is guilty and every freaking one of them raised their hand so i didn’t have that adverse guy to go ahead yeah but we talk about the mistakes that lapd made on that and and you know you talk about dna um back in the day and this is only we’re talking about 1991. We only have a couple of places to be able to book blood.

[19:44] And that was in our downtown Parker Center area. And then the Van Nuys and the San Fernando Valley area. But when you’re running with a murder for 16, 18, 20 hours, and it’s time to go get some sleep, the last thing you’re doing is going and booking that blood. And I’ve taken blood home a million times. Bloody clothing, and I put it in my refrigerator and preserved it as best I could. And then in the morning, I would take it and book it in. Well, that gave the defense. And you have to understand, too. And I don’t think a lot of these people understand. And Simpson paid $14 million for those seven attorneys to do the most tackler job probably in the history of law. Yeah. They did that. Oh, absolutely. And they took Barry Sheck, who was a phenomenal expert defense lawyer on DNA, and made those people understand that if they couldn’t find the one guy, even though it’s 450,000 to one, they wanted that one person in there because that means there’s doubt. It isn’t 450,000 to zero. It’s one. And he did a spectacular job at that point with that jury. Maybe not would have happened if it was in Santa Monica, but that jury bought in and they were brilliant. And they defeated the living shit out of, I’m sorry. They defeated Badly, our LA County DA who had no idea what they were up against, none of them.

[21:08] Yeah, I just watched, there’s a documentary on that. I just happened to watch that recently. The new ones? Yeah. With his agent? Netflix and, yeah, with his agent on there. His agent says, I think he did it. The last scene, he goes, well, Simpson told me, had she not come to the door with a knife, she’d be alive today. Where was this like 15 years ago or 20, whatever it was, fool? So, yeah, everybody wants to make a dime up this poor guy since he’s dead. Yeah, yeah.

[21:43] Yeah, that case was snake bit from day one, though. Oh, man. I mean, we don’t even go in all the different ways it was snake bit. It was what we call snake bit. Yes, sir. Every way, every way. Yeah, if everything was going to go wrong, it did go wrong. It did. Yeah, it did. No doubt about it. Well, he got his in the end, I guess. He spent some time. Didn’t they do him in Vegas? Vegas. And you know what’s ironic, Kerry, is that was all his stuff. The guy just wanted him. I know. I know. That was all his stuff. Yeah. It wasn’t like it was stolen. It was his stuff they stole from the guy. I guess he carried a gun along with it. Thought he might have to threaten somebody with a gun. What an idiot. Yeah. He goes back and takes back his own stuff and he does like 15 years for Rob. Oh my God. I would go get nine of nine of them, but. He did nine. Okay. Yeah. I knew he did a lot. I think that was a payback though for, you know. Oh yeah. LA. Yeah. I think so. Really interesting. So here’s this one case I’ve mentioned to you before about, uh, uh, we’ve got a similar kind of case where the, uh, a missing girl, young child was, has never been found again. So this was a four-year-old Jesse Gutierrez. So tell us about that. How’d you get involved in that? I see it said back in South Carolina anyhow.

[23:07] Yeah, I was, uh, I’d been retired for a number of years and I have a partner of mine that moved to Lexington, South Carolina. And he just came across something. And I don’t know how he came across it, but he said, called me and said, hey, take a look at this murder that’s for or kidnapping, presumed murder of a four-year-old. And it’s on Google. And I Googled her name. And Gary, by the time I’m done reading this article, Matt, I’m smashing stuff against the wall. Like I was incensed that Lexington County Sheriff’s back in 1986 treated this mother like an absolute piece of crap because she married a Hispanic man and there’s some very strong feelings about race back in Lexington, South Carolina, which, you know, I wasn’t quite aware of. And they did absolutely the de minimis as far as investigating this case when they had jailhouse informants that this guy copped to. They had a cigarette butt that was laying below the window. They had a fingerprint on the windowsill itself.

[24:15] If this case happened in Los Angeles, it’s over in two days. It was that easy of a case. Leading up to and including when my victim’s mother.

[24:26] Um kept bugging these guys please help me help me you know get my little girl back um the sheriff of the time and i’ll tell you the guy’s name was a guy named metz sheriff metz told her that she didn’t leave her fucking people his people alone he would never do anything on this case and he apparently kept his promise because there was nothing that was done this like i said this case was an was a quickie if they would have just done the right thing. So the detective that was assigned to this case in 1986 was a young cop on the sheriff’s department who I ended up meeting. I ended up going back there, Gary. First, I asked my partner to go there and door knock Deborah, her mother, Jesse’s mother. And he called me and says, Don, she’s righteous, man. She absolutely got crapped on by the sheriff’s department. So I’ve never done this before I could you know it’s not LA I don’t get it wasn’t me wasn’t anybody I knew yeah but I got so pissed off Gary that they just shit on crap on her yeah for that you know and this is in 1960 this is like 1986 yeah so I went there just to probably go tell her you know is this really true and I’m so sorry that you didn’t get treated fairly like that’s what You’re a citizen here, man. That’s what you deserve is a righteous police investigation.

[25:54] So I went and talked with her, and she filled me in a lot of things. She has this tape of Mets telling her to lay off her guys and quit bugging them. I went and talked to a victim witness coordinator, a number of people associated with the sheriff’s department at the time, and they just said they did things their own way. They called them the Lexington Mob. So you talk about, you know, your end. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, they, you know, but they said when? So this case laid dormant, Gary. There’s a landfill that’s about a mile and a half from her house.

[26:31] The primary suspect in this case, a guy named McDowell. I forget his first name right now. There’s a heel in the white truck. And there was a white truck scene going to this landfill that’s about a mile and a half from Deborah’s house, about 3 o’clock in the morning, which is the approximate time they think that this little girl was taken. And a sheriff’s unit is following it into the landfill. At 4 a.m. He gets a radio call and pulls off of the truck. Like I said, McDowell owned a white truck. It’s in close proximity where Deborah lives. And I would bet everything that I was ever trained under that little girl was in that guy’s truck and he was taking her to dump her yeah so I get home and uh when I met with the detective um.

[27:31] Dave Pritchard and he’s a lieutenant now getting ready to retire from there, very squared away guy good guy and when I asked I go how did you not do anything and he says Don Don, I needed the job, meaning he was told not to do shit about this unless he was told to. So I get home from Lexington, and about a week later, I get a call from Pritchard, and he says, Don, FBI is opening the case again. And they want the cigarette butt, and they’re going to look at everything. And Gary, I’m telling you, sir, I don’t know if I poked the bear, but I didn’t talk to any police administration officials. I talked to various people. But something happened. And I don’t think it was because of us, maybe the timing was, but inside of about a year after everything was done, he got his warrant for McDowell for the murder, a nobody murder and kidnapping of Jessica Gutierrez. They served a high profile warrant in Wake Forest, North Carolina, just over the South Carolina border. They took this lovely individual into custody. Wouldn’t talk to him last February.

[28:43] March 8th. Well, somewhere in there, they convicted him of the murder and kidnapping of Jessica Gutierrez. We couldn’t get the body back. And there’s an interesting dynamic here, and I’ll pick your brain for this. Richard calls me and says, what would you do to try to get the kid back? How would you talk to him? Go ask him what he wants. You know, he’s 69 years old. He’s in horrible health. He’s going to die in prison. Maybe he wants to get out in a couple of years if he cooperates and gets the kid. I said, the problem being is he’s going to tell you what’s in the landfill. The problem being that landfill has been turned over thousands and thousands of times since 1986. Yeah. So he makes the plopper. Hey, she’s there. They go and they try to find her and come back and say, well, she’s not there. He goes, well, that’s not my problem. You can’t. I get out now. So my advice to him was to say, you know what? Don’t make him a deal. F him. Don’t. Let him rot. Because you’re never going to. He could say that I dumped her in an alleyway at 54th or wherever. Well, now there’s a strip mall there. Right? So he could be lying on his ass and just to get his deal going. So the best part of that was leave him there, let him die there.

[29:52] She has some closure, although she still wanted her remains of her child back. It ended up being just a super case. And I touched on just a few of the highlights on there, but there was so much, so much that they missed. So much that they could have. Like I said, if this is here, Gary, or in Kansas City, I’m sure you all solved that crime within a couple of days. There was that much evidence and that much identification of this animal that did this to this little girl. The reason we believe he did it, he was dating Debra for a while. She’d broken off to go with one of his friends. He had been at the trailer a number of times. He knew how close to her and the kids that she was. And that’s probably his motivation for doing that, was to get back at her. Tough case, but it was neat to see that they at least were able to bring him to justice and give him his just rewards. How’d they tie him to it other than the white pickup in the area? His fingerprint, was that his? Of course, he had been in the trailer, so he could say, oh, I’ve been in that trailer. Yep, correct. Cigarette butts outside.

[31:01] Yep. The DNA on the cigarette butt was they weren’t able to get anything off because it had laid dormant for so long in a plastic bag. The fingerprint was his. She had cleaned that windowsill in the trailer a zillion times. And she had cleaned it that week. It was dry out. There was no reason that any kind of moisture would have gotten on the sill. It wasn’t chipping with the pain. It was pretty non-porous area. So over his print to be there that later in, in, after they broke up would be pretty impossible. Okay. But again, then they have three jailhouse informants to die. One’s left. And he, the jailhouse informant says he copped out to me that he did something very bad to a little girl in Lexington, you know, a few months before or a few weeks before. So, again, they had a great case to begin with, with that. They just let it go. It’s a little bit different back then. Really? Well, I’m going to tell you about this one locally that maybe you can come back here and solve this one. You and I, man, we’ll go out there and do it.

[32:09] Baby Lisa’s name of the case, her father’s name was Jeremy and mother’s name was Deborah. And about late in the afternoon, dad’s gone to work. Mom’s last known, you know, that somebody else saw her. She’s sitting down the front porch with the neighbor and they’re drinking some beer. And then she goes on in and goes to bed. She claims that she checked on the baby about 6.40 and then about 10.40 that evening. But when he comes in about four in the morning, baby Lisa is gone. There’s a couple of cell phones in the house that are gone. There’s a screen that was taken off of a window.

[32:47] And they’re like, I don’t know. You know, this is like a little baby. This is not a little kid who just got up and wandered off. This is a little baby. And then there was a neighbor that said they saw, you know, the bushy-haired stranger somewhere in the neighborhood that night. So then where do you go from there? Of course, first thing you do is you bring the parents in and then you start sweating them, which became a debacle because then they went to the press and complained that the cops were accusing them and weren’t really following up other leads. And so, you know, those are the things that happens to a homicide detective in those kinds of cases. Yep. There’s so many pratfalls. You almost think that it’s geared for defeat on our side of it. And that you have to try to overcome these obstacles. That’s going to be hard. You know, it’s like we had talked right before we came on about John Bonet is, you know, there’s so many people who have copped out to that, that if the righteous guy ever walked into the Colorado authorities, they could not convict him. They’ve trampled everything. This one, it sure looks like the people that were there are the people that probably are involved in this. Yeah. I mean, my personal theory is mom was drinking that night and somehow maybe, maybe fell asleep with the baby in the bed and she was a big woman and maybe laid over on her or something or baby, maybe, maybe the baby just died of, uh.

[34:15] Uh, SIDS, you know, sudden in that syndrome, you know, but then dad came home and he panicked. I don’t know. I think my theory is that’s what happened. And then dad panicked and hid the baby and set up and took these cell phones and got rid of them and then called the police. That’s my theory. But, you know, that’s.

[34:37] Plausible. It’s plausible. It’s just, but it’s a total, total theory. You know, there’s the other theory that we came up with that people knew that they had this newborn baby and there’s this syndrome that women get, certain women will get that will pretend like they’re pregnant. And then when it’s time to have the baby, they’ll like go to a hospital. That’s one reason that hospitals for the newborns are, they have these rigid security precautions because people, there’s people that will do this. This has happened. And they’ll get this baby and taken home and then tell all their friends and neighbors, yeah, I had my baby. Here’s my, he just got home in the hospital. Here’s my baby. So that was another theory. And, and then of course the, the bushy haired stranger, some kind of a, I don’t know, like the Madeline McCann case over in Portugal, where that little girl was taken out of her room and is, you know, missing, still missing. So somebody, you know, took that baby and raised it or sold it or what, you know, there’s always that, you know, they sold the baby that that’s big you know and that there was a mark you know you’d have to go back into what their their strata was the baby sales thing now is like you had talked about where they they pretend they’re pregnant and then they go find a baby and all but the sales of a baby you know.

[35:51] And to russian to you know going back the other way that’s big and you know if you looked at it you know were they in debt were they yeah i mean that that’s a great case yeah it works that’s viable and the problem being is the older it gets the harder it gets yeah to solve are they still actively looking at this you know probably not although they did have this guy um he came up with some these cell phones were missing and they claimed and let’s see it started in 20 uh.

[36:23] 2011 and 2012, they claim that a debit card that they had stolen that night, too, had been fraudulently used on a website that provided false birth certificates. This is almost a whole year later. The parents reported this. And there is such a website out there, you know, but I don’t know how much more they dug up. I couldn’t find out.

[36:46] It’s a KC case? Yeah, Kansas City. You know, at the time there, there’s, uh, didn’t have these attorneys get involved in these cases, high profile cases. This guy named Joe Taco, Taco Pina, Taco Pina. I think he got into the Trump thing for a while. He’s this New York lawyer. That’s this, you know, bigger than life and louder than anybody with a great New York accent. He came to town and they, and he started representing them for free. And then they were trying to collect DNA samples from the parents. And then he just stopped everything. He stopped everything, any investigation of the parents, except through him. And so that all died out. So it’s a- Did they polygraph the parents? Do you know? You know, I don’t think they ever got to- No, wait a minute. I looked at, I just glanced at my notes here. They did. They polygraphed the mom and she failed the first one. And then she had a second one that was inconclusive. So you know how the polygraph goes. Yeah. And then again, it’s just a, it’s a tool. Yeah. I don’t put a lot of faith in them, but it gives you a direction to go. Yeah. It just depends on how well the polygraph person could convince that. Yeah. They did bring a cadaver dog into the house and around the house, and the dog hit on a scent of a dead body that it was inside the house at one time. Now, of course, again, that and a buck and a half will get you a cup of coffee maybe. Yeah.

[38:13] It used to be 10 cents. And it’s way past a buck and a quarter now. Yeah, that would be a neat case to look at. They did hire. There was a non-benefactor that hired a private investigator and had a $100,000 reward for the baby back, I don’t know, during that time. And they never came up with anything. I don’t know. It’s just a heck of a case. Yeah, and you have to think that there righteously was a baby. Yeah. They’re with a baby. They lived there. Yeah. Causes demise, whether through SIDS or natural means or, you know, at the hands of them. It just seems there are a lot of things to do immediately. Yeah. You know, may or may not have been done. Yeah. That’s what I’d be interested to see is how did the crime scene go? What did they do? Well, I mean, I think they eventually got around to processing. Of course, it was a missing person’s case for a while, but I think pretty quickly they got around to processing the crime scene. Yeah. which is why they were wanting DNA and those kinds of things from other people. But none of that seemed to pan out to show anything. Child cases. So, you know, I never had a child case victim in my 12, 13 years of working murders. You know, a couple of child abuse things in patrol. But it’s funny, when I’ve done this PI thing now, I’ve had two, both victims of murders.

[39:40] That, you know, I have two sons and who were little at the time that I was on this job. And if a hair there would have been harmed, I would have been out with somebody, right? Much less how they could kill, or maim or hurt their child i know it doesn’t equate to like you know you got to be from another planet and then again it’s our it’s our job as detectives out there to speak for that victim and you don’t stop until like you have nothing left to say yeah in there and i feel bad for the for the child because it just doesn’t seem the same with gutierrez they just never got the investigation that they deserve to the u.s citizen and whatever the biases are you got to put them aside. I mean, every one of my victims wasn’t the neatest person in the world. No. It was yesterday’s suspect was today or tomorrow’s victim. So tell me about another case you worked at. Oh, man, I’ll tell you something, too. To show you the time.

[40:43] We get called in and a mother and son, son was buying rock cocaine in the San Fernando Valley. And there was a problem with the sale and the son got shot and killed at the scene. We roll up, process the scene, we get some names and all this and the mother isn’t saying shit to us. She’s refusing to talk. So we go through the whole case. We’re a little bit weird about her and finally we get around to her because it’s her turn. Everybody we’ve talked to now, we’ve got her and the boy in the car. We have four suspects Or at least appear to be suspects We know who the shooter is But three of my witnesses says No, the mother was buying the dope And got into it with the seller, And the boy And the boy, tries to grab the gun because the guy goes to put the gun in like it was a ripoff and of course he gets blasted mother doesn’t the mother might have been on mars during this whole time i don’t know what happened i don’t know where we were i don’t that that that that that that that that three weeks into this case gary we end up finding a wit that we hadn’t known about that had sold dope to the mother repeatedly in the process of getting the suspect in custody.

[42:09] We polygraphed the mother who did so bad, like the ink was hitting the polygrapher on the, you know, the needles are just going everywhere. And she finally cops out that she didn’t want to go back to jail. She was on parole for possession, you know, for narcotics possession and didn’t want to go back to jail. So therefore, if she just said it was she blamed her kid for, you know, causing his own demise. And it just to to this day i still think like how do you put yourself you funded your kid who got killed for you buying dope right and it can only happen here in the city of los angeles like that that your child 19 year old kid take a mommy to buy some rock and something gets blasted and you know she doesn’t even have the audacity to feel bad and cop out about what happened so So she ended up getting, she was a real jewel. And again, it’s just things like that that come up about, you know, humanity’s just gone. We’ve lost. Back then we lost, but it’s worse now. Worse now, yeah. Oh, yeah. And then on the other two, the kind of the, not fun ones, but we had a gangster that stabbed his girlfriend.

[43:24] And I plodded myself, Gary, on my interview and interrogation techniques. I’m not supposed to use interrogation anymore. My interview techniques. This little gangster, they arrest him. And it didn’t take an FBI academy guy to be able to interview these people. And my thing was, hey, this is your only chance to tell me what happened. I got 19 witnesses that told me exactly what went on. This is it because after i leave you’re going to tell your attorney or he’s going to paint a rosy picture for you and the bottom line is your attorney goes home and goes to bed and you’re sitting in some joint right just if you don’t want to talk to me just say yeah i’ll talk to you, but just don’t lie to me god i’m in the middle of the night i’m tired which you know i always spoke the truth so this kid just says okay well you know we we got in a fight and um she took out a knife and was trying to cut me. And I said, well, how did, how did the knife end up in your hand? And then she got stabbed three times. He says, well, I got the knife away from her and we were going down a stairwell and she tripped and fell into me and stabbed herself. I said, I got that part. Okay. So that’s, that doesn’t, that’s, that was an accident, right? Put off the other two Well when we rolled over She fell in life again Okay that’s two.

[44:52] And then I said, you’re missing one. He goes, well, I don’t know how that went out.

[44:56] And I said, listen, it’s still sweat off on me. And I was dead serious, Gary. I said, you’re going to go into court and you’re going to tell a jury that same story and they’re going to laugh at you. You know, he gets all this proud shit like, maybe they’re going to laugh at me. I said, it makes no sense. And you’re going to say that. They’re going to go, what an idiot. So you attack their manlyhood and then you attack the character. And he goes like, really? I said, yes, they’re going to walk out of that jury booth, come right back into court and go guilty. What should I tell them? I said, I’d stick with the first one. And he goes, oh, man. He goes, then I’m going to, you know, I’m going to, it’s going to be hard for me to explain. I said, all right, then just tell me, how did all the thing go down? And he goes, and there’s everything. They’ve been arguing all day, and she had picked up some kind of a pan to hit him.

[45:47] And he’s walking towards her with the pan and he slaps her and the pan falls out and he said, I’m just so pissed off at her. He just stabbed her. I said, okay, that sounds so much better than the thing about fighting and she stabbed herself and he’s all proud that he told the truth on this thing. So, you know, there were comical moments on very sad moments, you know, in this world that we worked in. That interview slash interrogation that in a murder, especially murder is such a psychologically powerful crime. You can get P I noticed you can get people to talk about all kinds of stuff trying to deflect your attention away from what you want to talk about. Then as you get them closer, if you can get them started down that path of any kind of a little.

[46:36] Thing that might’ve happened. You just get them started down that path and they’ll kind of go down that path thinking that they can fool you here and they can tell you something to get you off their butt. And then you come back like, just like what you did, it’s classic. Then you come back and say, well, you know, that ain’t quite, you know, that doesn’t make sense here, you know?

[46:55] And you just, each step, they just go down that path a little further until they’ve relieved themselves of the burden. Oh, and that, you know, I had a, yeah, absolutely. And you’re so run out with that. I had a judge who, who refused to believe that suspects would admit to doing their crimes. I would tell her, everyone understands saying, well, you know, people want to tell you they do what, uh, and probably 90% of the suspects, whether it be from a domestic violence act or robbery. They want to rid themselves of some of the guilt. So they’ll give you that omission, give you a little piece of it, right? And then eventually you’ll see their body language, you know, they’re starting to give in and like, okay, I feel better about this now, right? You don’t want to lie because you’re going to be caught in the lie and you make it, you know, worse for them. The ones that are tough, Gary, when you walk them in, they go, I ain’t got shit to say to you. Yeah. And then they, you know, the word, but, you know, when they’re hemming and hawing and, you know, moving in their seat, and when you start giving them so much evidence against them, it’s overwhelming, right? The psyche doesn’t want to hear all the stuff you have on me. So, you know, and the first, like, they’ll tell you, you know, your OC cases, you know, you’ll get that small pond down here and, like, well, what can you do for me? Right. As soon as, as soon as that happened, you’re okay.

[48:22] Okay. Let me tell you. Right. And you, here’s what I’m gonna do for you. I’m going to keep you out of the gas chamber. And then like, well, shit, all I do is carry the money. Right. And now I’m going to the gas chamber. So yeah, you know what? It was so much fun being imaginative and, you know, getting these people to talk or roll over, just give me something. And, you know, there were others that didn’t say stop. I respected that. Then I can go home earlier and play with my kids. Yeah.

[48:50] So much fun, Gary, working this job. In a tragic time, that was the fun part to what kept it sane and kept you going from the game. Yeah. And if you could treat it as a game. I always treat it as a game. It’s not personal. Oh, God. It’s a game. We’re like grown-up boys playing cops and robbers. We just happen to have real guns. Isn’t that it? That’s exactly it. And, you know, as long as I came home safe every night and my kids were safe, you know, I was, and, you know, I understand people get pissed off and, and men get mad at their wives or wives get mad at their men or gangsters, you know, this other gangster.

[49:26] And you know what? It was, it, it was all just, um, basically a game, you know, it cats, uh, cops and mobbers, like you said, uh, if it was you, I’ll give you a real quick thing just today. I wanted to show you on what side of the fence we were on. I had a triple murder. That uh on an arson guy a dope deal goes wrong somehow gas comes out and the guy burns up the place and kills three people okay so i have three eyewitnesses that identify this guy i have uh um, The gasoline there, I have everything we need. We wrap up the crime scene. 18 hours later, we’re driving around the area. This was in Vermont and 82nd Street in Central Los Angeles. And there’s the guy walking that they described. Six foot five guy wearing a gray sweatshirt, gray pants, short haircut. And we stopped the guy. Yeah. 18 hours later, Gary, the guy reeks of gasoline and his hands are all singed, right? I think you got him. Might be the guy, right? Yeah. Might be him.

[50:40] And from the moment we arrested him, vehemently denied ever striking, you know, starting that fire, he goes, I was there at the dope deal, but this guy, Bluebird or Jaybird, He came out and he’s trying to rip me off and has a gallon of gasoline, throws it on me, right? And then lights the fire. It goes all through the hallways. And, you know, these were really cheap-ass, yeah, partons. So he books in the interim with three-eyed wits and evidence of gasoline on him, go to trial, and he’s convicted, and he’s sentenced to death. And, Gary, you know this. from the moment we arrested him until the moment they were leading him out the door to go up to San Quentin. He’s screaming, you promised me, you promised me. Donald, his name was Donald. Give me the guy, dude. I don’t give a shit who goes to jail, right? If all the evidence points to you, which it did, it’s you. Even if you say it’s not, I can’t change what they’ve said.

[51:46] He is in Chino, which is one of the holding facilities before he’s going up to San Quentin to the death house. This is about a year and a half later. I get a phone call from him, screaming, Tabak, you said he’s here, he’s here, Blaine Bluebird or whatever his name was, he’s here. So I said, all right, I’ll be down there. I’ll go talk to the guy. So you know how we all keep out polygraph keys on cases, right? It’s probably key on this one was a yellow Bic lighter, which even this guy that we convicted didn’t know about. So I go and talk to the guy. We promised him. And Gary, it is in 10 minutes, and he mentions the yellow Bic lighter. Oh. Oh, yeah. You just went? That’s exactly what I did. She went, oh, shit. Oh, shit. So I called the DA, and I go, you got to get down here, right? Yeah. I got our guy off. Here’s what happened. This dope dealer, he was an enemy dope dealer. When the thing, the fire set up, he got three of these girls who live there to identify him.

[52:53] Absolute bullshit. They were not there. But as I would, how am I going to tell them they’re not there? I have no reason to suspect anything about them. We got them to recant. He goes in, the other guy, he cops out to a second degree murder. And my guy walked out. he went for whatever the thing was five six seven years it wasn’t a lot back in the day the three girls got a couple years each for you know and it’s false testimony and then, the the victim who lived who was in that pugilistic position when you burn up the guy was burned like 80 of his body and lived he’s in olive branch mississippi, And we go to Olive Branch, Mississippi with their officers where this guy’s living. And as we walk up on the front porch, Gary, his hands are fused together. The guy is smoking a cigarette. You think the last thing this dude would ever get about is by fire, right? He ended up being one of the suspects as well. So we walked that guy. The guy got out of San Quentin off a death row. And it truly was. I didn’t care who you were. If the evidence pointed to you, you win, you know, and I’m sure there’s innocent people that are on death row. Yeah. You know, if it looks, it’s the duck theory, right? If it looks like a duck and it cracks like a duck, it ain’t a moose.

[54:17] And you guys out there, if you, if you didn’t pick up on that in, in a homicide investigation, especially a high profile case that’s in the news, you have some little piece of evidence that only the police know. You’d never let that out unless you have to have it at the final trial. Otherwise, you don’t let anybody know because you have, in a high-profile case, you have all these nutcases calling in, wanting to confess, or somebody wanting to drop a dime on somebody just to mess with them. And so when they don’t know about that little piece of evidence, that’s the thing that will be the decider here. I’ll tell you a quick little story of my own. We had a double homicide downtown. I was a junior detective out in the burglary unit in the station. They brought us down because it was two young guys working in a downtown store, got killed by the same gun that’s already killed another store clerk a week earlier. So this was a hot one. And I had this informant back in the neighborhoods, and he’s telling me, well, this kid is bragging that he’s the one that killed those two guys downtown. town. So I talked to the sergeant and he said, well, I don’t know. He said, what do you think? And I said, you know, the guy, the kids never lied to me.

[55:34] He said, well, bring him in. He said, wait a minute. First, he said, will your informant take a polygraph? I said, yeah, I think he would. So I call up my guy and he said, yeah, I’ll do it. So he takes a polygraph and he passes a polygraph. So no doubt in my mind that this kid is, you know, has heard somebody say, yeah, I did those two guys downtown, the radio shack. So we bring that kid in. He’s a goofy young kid, about 18, 19 years old and a half a bubble off a plum, as we say.

[56:03] And so my partner and I, we take him back in the back. And it’s funny, the older detectives didn’t seem to want to have anything to do with this. And I didn’t really tell them about it. You know, they would have taken it away from us. There’s no doubt. I thought there was some glory in it. And we take this kid back in the room, interrogation room, and start interrogating him. And he starts talking about, you know, he starts breaking down the real simple kind of a, well, yeah, yeah, I was downtown that day. Well, yeah. Wow. Well, and finally he said, I said, well, now, how’d you do it? He said, you know, I went pooh, pooh. Okay. So, I mean, he’s like, he’s confessed to me. Right. So I go out and I get one of the older detectives that I knew pretty well. I said, Kenny, come here a minute. Here’s what we got going.

[56:47] He said, let me talk to him. So he goes in, starts talking to the kid. Well, I hadn’t been to the crime scene. I probably hadn’t read the original, read the original report because they just called us in as cannon fodder to go run down, you know, bullshit leads out here.

[57:05] Kenny starts talking to him. He said, okay, tell me what happened here. And he said, well, you know, I went in, I had a gun, I robbed the store. And he said, well, where’d you get the money from? He said, well, the guy said, well, the guy just hit the cash register ding and opened up and I grabbed the money out and I killed them both. And Kenny said, ah, come on outside Jenkins. I said, okay. He said, he didn’t do it. I said, what do you mean he didn’t do it? He just told you did it. He said, they didn’t have a cash register. They had their money in the money drawer down below the, uh, the, uh, I learned the lesson that day, you know, you learn your lessons. I learned the lesson that day, find out about that crime scene and make them describe in detail what happened at that crime scene. Oh yeah. And even with this yellow Bic lighter, you know, we, we took them back and forth. We made sure they didn’t hear from somebody else, although we’ve got nobody else to know about it. But like you said, that’s something can blow up in your face and you know, all the, the basic great teachings that you have, like you, you kind of let one of them go. And then, like you said, that you’re, you’re the laughingstock of your detective room for a while. Yeah, really? Yeah. All right. Don Tabak. Don, tell us again about your show. How do people see that? It’s for you in the Los Angeles area, it’s called Crime Scene Live. It’s at the Lowe’s Hollywood Hotel at Highland Hollywood Boulevard. It’s Friday and Saturday nights starting at eight o’clock.

[58:31] It’s immersive. It’s interactive. We talk about a bunch of our cases. And then at the end, we’re going to give everybody one of my murders and see how they can solve it and see what they would have done different than I did. And we got a, it’s a beautiful room. It’s 20 stories above, uh, uh, Hollywood Boulevard. Got a nice bar in there. So it’s, uh, it’s a time to meet and greet and talk. And then afterwards kind of have a good time with everybody.

[58:56] Cool. Well, true crime is a pretty popular subject nowadays. Man, I’ll tell you something. I had no idea too, Gary. And the demographic that, that everybody goes on, it’s probably your show as well. Yeah. Women 18 to 40 are the main, it blew me away when I heard that. That’s it, except in the area of organized crime. Organized crime is men about 25 to 65 or 70. Is it really? 90%, 85% to 90% men on my YouTube channel. Oh, damn, I had no idea. See, I’m telling you, to get these stats out, man, it’s amazing. Yeah, well, they count who comes to your channel. So you get them pretty easily. I get them every day. So let me ask you, Saul, and being an OC guy for as long as you did, where’s Jimmy Hoffa?

[59:48] Well, I’ve got a guy that swears and be damned, although the FBI did finally go out and dig for him. And he’s in underneath the St. Louis, I mean, St. Louis, the New Jersey Skyway. It’s some kind of freeway back east in Brother Moscato’s old dump, buried. Two different reasonable people that say that. And personally, I can’t imagine you would load that guy up after you killed him in Detroit and drive him clear back to New Jersey to bury him. I don’t know. I just, I have trouble with that one.

[1:00:22] I’d be, I’d be burning that body up or crushing it or, you know, they got plenty of ways. A mob in Detroit’s got plenty of ways to make a body disappear.

[1:00:31] Um, organized crime in Kansas city, Kansas is large. They have a large presence there. Yeah. Actually it’s Missouri, Kansas city, Missouri, but people make that, uh, just fail to make that distinction. We have a Kansas city, Kansas, you know, it was pretty big at these during the seventies and eighties, you know, it was our boss had these, uh, fingers out into Las Vegas big time and he was connected with Chicago and Milwaukee and Cleveland. But since they, you know, we busted all that, the Bureau mainly did it, but we, we took all that down and all those guys went to jail for the, basically the rest of their lives. And it just went to nothing. You know, we’ve got a sports book and, uh, you know, a little bit of loan sharking and, and some, oh, oh yeah. I tell you what they got into rather than the loan sharkings, uh, payday loans and title loans and buy here, pay here car dealerships. There’s a lot of money in that. I mean, I mean, and you can chart. Charge the interest that you want for a lot of those things. It’s just, and use learn shark tactic because you have to deal with poor people and poor people. You just, you go out and threaten them. You maybe go out and whack them around a little bit and you’ll get your money. So that’s, uh, that’s, that’s one of the big things they’re into now. So there’s still a few guys around that are doing that kind of thing. Not many, maybe 10.

[1:01:50] In your era, when you wrapped up a guy, uh, a mob guy, would they roll over on who they knew what was going on? No. Okay. We had, you might have a low level guy that would slip the information. Okay. Just, you’d have to have a bunch of them to get any kind of a real picture or compare notes with other people that had their own sources. Bureau had a lot of little sources. They had a couple of real deep throats that, uh, you know, cause they could, they’ve got the real hammer. And I had a couple of three, you know, minor guys that could kind of tell you who’s who and, and kind of a little bit about what’s going on. So, but it’s always, it’s a piecemeal thing that you try to put together as a bigger picture until you can get a wiretap or a bug or something that you’re not going to really learn anything. And we don’t have a local wiretap law. And so we always worked with the FBI. We just ripped. We were their foot shoulders out here. Yeah, of course. We were.

[1:02:47] You were the brains behind it. They put their lovely suits and their little badges and did their thing. They send these guys into town from some other city and they’re just, a lot of them are just out of college or they’ve only lived in, you know, San Francisco or New York or, you know, or, or, you know, uh. Somewhere down the south mid-south or something and so they get sent to kansas city well you know they don’t know anybody they don’t know the streets they don’t know where they use and the organized crime squad they’d send them over to the intelligence unit and we had one particular guy that would take them under his wing and he’d go out and drive them all around show them all the spots and this guy’s this and this guy’s that and this is this guy and he always you’ll find him at the city market about 10 or 11 o’clock in the morning they’ll all be at the social club about two in the afternoon. Here they are.

[1:03:38] And then they’d go back and take their, get their cases. Oh, of course. Yeah, exactly. Wow. Yeah. You’ve got stories, obviously. Yeah.

[1:03:48] All right, Don, I really appreciate you coming on. Oh man. I so appreciate it. Thank you for the opportunity. I really appreciate it. I had a great time. All right. I did too. Good meeting you. I got, I got a lot more stories. We both do, but we don’t have so much time. Another show. We’ll do that. We’ll do that one. Okay. All right. All right. Be safe. Thank you. All right. Hey, guys, that was a fun show. I really like talking with that guy. You learned a lot of stuff that you didn’t know before, I think. Don’t forget, I like to ride motorcycles. So when you’re out on the streets there and you’re a big F-150, watch out for those little motorcycles when you’re out. If you have a problem with PTSD and you’ve been in the service, be sure and go to the VA website. They’ll help with your drugs and alcohol problem. If you’ve got that problem or gambling, if not, you can go to Anthony Ruggiano. He’s a counselor down in Florida. He’s got a hotline on his YouTube page or his Facebook, not Facebook, but his website. If you’ve got a problem with gambling, most states will have, if you have gambling, most states will have a hotline number to call. Just have to search around for it. You know, I’ve always got stuff to sell. I got my books. I got my movies. They’re all on Amazon. Just go and I got links down below in the show notes and just go to my Amazon sales page and you can figure out what to do. I really appreciate y’all tuning in and we’ll keep coming back and doing this. Thanks, guys.