In this episode of Gangland Wire, retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective Gary Jenkins sits down with author Kevin E. Meredith to examine a little-known but highly influential force in Chicago’s Prohibition-era crime wars—the Secret Six. Click here for a link to get the book The Secret Six: The Rise and Fall of Chicago's greatest Vigilantes

Meredith, a former newspaper reporter turned historian, explains how he uncovered the story while researching another project. What he found was a group unlike any other: wealthy businessmen who stepped outside traditional law enforcement to combat the chaos of organized crime and corruption gripping Chicago in the early 1930s.

The Rise of the Secret Six
The conversation begins with the conditions that gave rise to the Secret Six—widespread corruption, violent labor disputes, and a city dominated by gangland power structures. A key turning point was the murder of construction supervisor Philip Meeker, which galvanized prominent business leaders into action. Rather than working quietly, the Secret Six operated in full public view, using media attention as a weapon. They were not truly “secret,” nor limited to six members, but their branding captured public imagination during a time of fear and instability. Vigilantes with Resources: Meredith details the group’s unconventional tactics: running a covert jail inside the St. Clair Hotel; financing independent investigations; using early lie-detection technology; coordinating with local law enforcement. Their financial power allowed them to function almost like a parallel police force, blurring the line between legal authority and private enforcement.

High-Profile Cases and Mob Pressure
The Secret Six became entangled in some of the most notorious events of the era, including fallout from the St. Valentine's Day Massacre. Their aggressive tactics earned both praise and criticism. One of the most striking episodes discussed is their involvement in an extortion case tied to socialite Marian Wright. Their heavy-handed investigative style brought results—but also legal and ethical scrutiny. Their existence also intersected with figures like Al Capone, who recognized the group as a legitimate threat to organized crime operations.

The Fall and Legacy
Operating from roughly 1930 to 1933, the Secret Six ultimately collapsed under mounting criticism and suspicion. Deals that appeared questionable—such as the recovery of stolen bonds—raised doubts about their methods and motives. Despite their short lifespan, they had a significant impact. Meredith emphasizes how their story reflects enduring tensions between public safety and civil liberties—questions that remain relevant today.

Final Takeaway
This episode explores a unique chapter in American crime history where private citizens took the fight to organized crime, raising complex questions about justice, power, and accountability. Get this great book The Rise and Fall of Chicago's Greatest Vigilantes

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In this episode of Gangland Wire, retired Kansas City Intelligence Unit detective Gary Jenkins welcomes author Ray Franze to discuss his historical fiction novel The Heights, a story inspired by the real-life mob figures who controlled Chicago Heights and Northwest Indiana for much of the twentieth century. Drawing on FBI files, family stories, and historical research, Franze explores the rise of Frank LaPorte and the Chicago Heights crew, one of the most influential factions associated with the Chicago Outfit.
The conversation begins with the famous 1928 photograph showing Al Capone and several future participants in the St. Valentine's Day Massacre. Franze explains the long-standing belief that members of the Chicago Heights crew may have been involved in planning the infamous gangland murder and discusses the crew's close relationship with Capone and his associates.
Gary and Ray examine the unique position of Chicago Heights, located south of Chicago near the Indiana border, and how the area developed its own powerful criminal organization before eventually becoming part of the Chicago Outfit. They discuss the role of the Union Siciliana, the Beer Wars of Prohibition, and the alliance between Capone and local leaders such as Dominic Roberto, Jimmy Emery, and Frank LaPorte.
The discussion also covers the expansion of organized crime into Northwest Indiana, Calumet City, and Joliet. Ray explains how gambling, vice, and bootlegging operations flourished in these territories and how Chicago Heights became a major power center within the Outfit structure.
The conversation explores Frank LaPorte's leadership style and his remarkable ability to avoid publicity and law enforcement attention. Unlike many notorious gangsters, LaPorte remained largely unknown to the public while building a powerful organization through trusted family members, loyal associates, and strategic insulation from criminal activity.
Gary and Ray also discuss the Outfit's transition into seemingly legitimate businesses, including jukeboxes, vending machines, and cigarette distribution, as federal investigators increased pressure on traditional gambling operations. The evolution of mob-controlled businesses reflects the Outfit's efforts to adapt to changing law enforcement tactics.
Click here to get Ray's book, The Heights.
Another fascinating topic is the legendary Villa Venice nightclub, opened by Sam Giancana with appearances by Frank Sinatra and the Rat Pack. Ray shares family memories of the grand opening and explains how these firsthand accounts became one of the most authentic scenes in his novel.

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Retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective Gary Jenkins welcomes back organized crime historian and author John Binder for an in-depth discussion about his new book, The Chicago Outfit During the 1960s. Together, they explore one of the most important yet often overlooked decades in the history of the Chicago mob.

The conversation examines how the Chicago Outfit evolved during the 1960s under powerful figures like Sam Giancana and Anthony Accardo. John Binder explains how the Outfit expanded beyond traditional rackets into massive gambling operations, Las Vegas casinos, labor racketeering, prostitution, truck hijacking, and narcotics trafficking. Gary and John discuss the transition from the old Prohibition-era gangsters to a new generation of mobsters emerging from the infamous 42 Gang. The episode details how Giancana cultivated loyal associates, enforced discipline through violence, and helped reshape the Outfit’s power structure during a turbulent period marked by gangland murders and internal rivalries.

The discussion also explores the Outfit’s extensive network of political corruption in Chicago. Binder explains how mob-controlled wards, corrupt politicians, and labor influence allowed organized crime to manipulate elections and maintain enormous influence over city government and law enforcement.

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In this episode of Gangland Wire, retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective Gary Jenkins sits down with organized crime historian and author John Binder to explore the violent and chaotic world of Prohibition-era Chicago. Drawing on his acclaimed book Al Capone's Beer Wars, Binder traces the explosive rise of organized crime in the 1920s and how bootlegging transformed local street gangs into powerful criminal empires.

The discussion examines how Prohibition reshaped America’s underworld, creating unprecedented opportunities for ambitious gangsters like Al Capone. Gary and John trace the roots of Chicago’s infamous gang wars, focusing on the bitter conflict between Capone’s organization and the North Side Gang. Central to the story is the assassination of Dion O'Banion, a murder that ignited a bloody cycle of revenge killings and permanently altered the balance of power in Chicago’s criminal landscape.

The episode dives into the roles played by immigrant communities, particularly Italian and Jewish gangs, who entered the bootlegging business during a period when economic opportunities were limited. Gary and John discuss how organized crime flourished in poorly policed neighborhoods, where gangs established territorial control and built sophisticated alcohol distribution networks spanning multiple states.

Listeners also hear detailed stories about notorious gangland figures including Machine Gun Jack McGurn and the fearsome Frank McErlane, whose violent reputation became legendary even within criminal circles. The conversation reveals the ruthless tactics these men employed as rival factions fought for dominance in the lucrative bootlegging trade. The episode also explores the blurred line between organized crime and legitimate business during Prohibition, showing how gangsters used political influence, territorial control, and business alliances to expand their operations. Gary and John discuss the strategic importance of places like Cicero, which became critical strongholds for Capone’s growing empire.

John Binder also discusses his Chicago Prohibition Gangland Tour, which allows participants to visit the streets, neighborhoods, and historic locations where these infamous events unfolded. The tour provides a rare opportunity to experience the physical landscape of Chicago’s mob history while learning about the real people behind the myths. This episode offers a compelling look into the rise of organized crime during Prohibition, separating fact from fiction while uncovering the brutal realities that created some of America’s most notorious gangsters.

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Gary Jenkins celebrates the Netherlands, who are in Kansas City for the World Cup. He has a discussion with a Dutch organized crime researcher, David Amoroso, and they trace how the American Mafia expanded its gambling empire after losing Cuba. The episode explores how Meyer Lansky's vision of luxury casinos evolved into an international operation spanning the Bahamas, London, and Amsterdam.  


David explains how the Genovese crime family, under Meyer Lansky, relied on the Cellini brothers from Steubenville, Ohio to establish professional casino operations throughout Europe. The discussion examines the logistics of exporting experienced casino managers, dealers, and security personnel while navigating cultural differences and working alongside local criminal organizations.  

The conversation also explores the unique gambling laws across Europe, where many governments controlled legal casinos while organized crime filled the demand through illegal gambling operations. Gary and David compare these European developments with the early growth of casino gambling in Las Vegas and the influence of American mob figures.  

The discussion shifts to the modern era, where organized crime has increasingly focused on online gambling, sports betting, and international drug trafficking. David describes how ports such as Rotterdam and Antwerp became major hubs for global narcotics smuggling and explains why European criminal organizations have embraced these lucrative markets.  

Another major topic is the growing threat of match-fixing in international sports. The hosts discuss how Italian Mafia groups, Chinese gambling syndicates, and other criminal organizations manipulate soccer, tennis, and other sporting events through bribery and coercion. They explain how athletes can become trapped through seemingly minor requests that eventually lead to long-term criminal control.  

Gary and David conclude by examining the challenges European law enforcement faces when investigating cross-border organized crime, comparing the fragmented legal systems in Europe with coordinated enforcement efforts in the United States. The episode provides an insightful look at how organized crime has adapted from traditional casinos to today's global gambling and sports betting networks.

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In this replay, as a tribute to Camillius "Cam" Robinson, Retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective Gary Jenkins, and co-host Cam dive deep into the wild life and violent death of one of the Mafia’s most unpredictable figures—Crazy Joey Gallo.

From Brooklyn’s Red Hook streets to the bloody wars of the Colombo crime family, Joey Gallo built a reputation as a fearless outlaw who challenged Mafia bosses, embraced celebrity culture, and became a folk hero to outsiders and artists alike. Gary and Cam explore Gallo’s transformation from street gangster to media sensation, his fascination with philosophy and existentialism, and his notorious appearances before the McClellan Committee wearing dark sunglasses and mocking authority.

The episode examines the Gallo crew’s role in the assassination of Mafia boss Albert Anastasia inside the Park Sheraton barber shop, including insider accounts from Pete “The Greek” Diapoulas and theories involving Carmine Persico and the Patriarca family. Gary and Cam break down how the Gallos evolved into a rogue faction willing to kidnap capos, challenge Joe Profaci, and wage war against the Colombo family itself.

The conversation also explores Joey Gallo’s prison years, his relationship with Harlem heroin kingpin Nicky Barnes, and the intellectual awakening that shaped his later persona. The hosts discuss Gallo’s ties to New York celebrities, including Jerry Orbach, Pete Falk, Ben Gazzara, and Neil Simon, along with the cultural impact that inspired Bob Dylan’s famous song “Joey.”
Gary and Cam revisit the unsolved shooting of Joe Colombo at the Italian-American Civil Rights League rally and examine competing theories involving Jerome Johnson, the Gambino family, and the Gallos themselves.

They also unpack the dramatic final hours of Joey Gallo’s life at Umberto’s Clam House in Little Italy, where Colombo gunmen allegedly tracked him down during his birthday celebration and opened fire in one of the Mafia’s most legendary assassinations.

Using firsthand accounts, old newspaper reports, and mob insider testimony, this episode paints a vivid portrait of Joey Gallo’s rise, wars, betrayals, and enduring legend in organized crime history.

Buy Cam's book Chicago Swan Song: A Mob Wife's Story the story of Frank Calbrese's wife and living in a Chicago Outfit family

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In this episode of Gangland Wire, retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective Gary Jenkins examines one of the most puzzling events in organized crime history—the 1971 shooting of Joe Colombo.
At the height of his influence, Colombo stood before a crowd of nearly 50,000 at Italian Unity Day in New York City when he was gunned down by Jerome A. Johnson, a man posing as a journalist with a camera. The brazen daylight attack shocked both the public and law enforcement, immediately raising questions about motive, planning, and whether larger forces were at work.

Drawing on insights from Chief by Albert A. Seedman, Jenkins breaks down the NYPD's investigation. Despite intense scrutiny, detectives found no clear ties between Johnson and organized crime, a fact that complicated the case from the outset.

The episode explores:
The chaotic scene at Italian Unity Day and Colombo’s shooting
Johnson’s background, including his strange attempts to break into filmmaking
The investigative work of Detective John Weber and the efforts to link Johnson to militant or political groups
The difficulty in determining whether Johnson acted alone or as part of a larger conspiracy
Although authorities ultimately concluded Johnson was a lone gunman, lingering questions remain. Was he truly acting independently, or was he manipulated or used as a disposable asset?
Jenkins also examines the broader consequences of the shooting. Colombo’s incapacitation triggered instability within the Colombo crime family, leading to internal conflict and a significant shift in New York’s organized crime landscape.
This episode provides a detailed look at an unresolved mystery that continues to spark debate among historians, law enforcement, and mob insiders alike.


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In this episode of Gangland Wire, retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective Gary Jenkins examines one of the most puzzling events in organized crime history—the 1971 shooting of Joe Colombo.

At the height of his influence, Colombo stood before a crowd of nearly 50,000 at Italian Unity Day in New York City when he was gunned down by Jerome A. Johnson, a man posing as a journalist with a camera. The brazen daylight attack shocked both the public and law enforcement, immediately raising questions about motive, planning, and whether larger forces were at work.

Retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective Gary Jenkins sits down with former criminal and prison minister Bill Corum for one of the most unusual conversations ever featured on Gangland Wire.
Bill Corum recounts his journey from car theft and prison escapes in the early 1960s to his deep involvement in Kansas City’s criminal underworld in the 1970s and early 1980s. He describes his work around pornography, prostitution, stolen property, cocaine trafficking, and his connections to notorious Kansas City underworld figures.
Gary and Bill discuss legendary Kansas City mob fence Sol Landi and his murder by assassins sent by the mob, the River Quay era, Junior Bradley, corrupt influences in local politics and the courts, and the explosive cocaine culture that swept through Kansas City during the 1980s. Bill also shares stories involving Weld Wheels founder Kenny Weld, cocaine trafficking operations, and the dangerous atmosphere surrounding organized crime in Kansas City.
The conversation dives into:
Bill’s prison escape and stolen car career
The prostitution business in Independence, Missouri
Mob-connected fences and stolen property rings
Cocaine trafficking in Kansas City during the early 1980s
The murder of Saul Landy
River Quay nightlife and mob influence
Corrupt officials and criminal networks
Kansas City organized crime personalities
Prison life and criminal culture
Bill Corum’s dramatic religious conversion in 1983
His decades-long prison ministry work across America
Bill also explains how he transformed his life after addiction, violence, and years in the criminal world, eventually dedicating his life to prison outreach and ministry programs throughout the United States.
You can learn more about Bill Corum and his book at either The Ultimate Pardon or Bill Corum Official Website

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Subscribe to Gangland Wire wherever you get your podcasts, and join us each week as we uncover the stories buried beneath the headlines—and the bodies.
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The prostitution business in Independence, Missouri

Mob-connected fences and stolen property rings

Cocaine trafficking in Kansas City during the early 1980s

The murder of Saul Landy

River Quay nightlife and mob influence

Corrupt officials and criminal networks

Kansas City organized crime personalities

Prison life and criminal culture

Bill Corum’s dramatic religious conversion in 1983

His decades-long prison ministry work across America

Subscribe for more mafia history and true crime stories every week.

Click here to “buy me a cup of coffee”

Of course, if you’re in the donate page, you might want to hit the donate button. We always use a little, can use a little support. And I have a guy that I’d heard of and I’d seen on YouTube and I have mu- we have mutual friends, but I had never actually met him. And I, so I g- I… Some people he knows asked me to be on their show.

And so I was on their show, and Bill was on that show at the same time. So we started talking. We had lunch and we had all these… We were running in the same circles, but separate circles that then overlapped every once in a while. He was on one side of the law and I was on the other. So Bill Corum.

Welcome, Bill. Thank you, Gary. Thank you so much. And we were running in opposite… We were running real close- … but I was careful. When [00:01:00] I got out of prison, it- You were. When I got out of prison in 1964, I had two goals. Yeah. Never go back, and never get caught. And I started breaking the law the day I got out of prison, and I broke the law for almost 19 years and didn’t get caught.

I got caught a couple times at little things, and I got… I hired a high-powered criminal attorney that came out of Alex Peebles’ office who’s now a judge. I won’t even mention his name. He’s now a judge. I think I told you who it was. But and Alex got me out of a couple deals way back when.

But little things. And I was still, doing everything. And I went for almost 19 years and didn’t get caught. Unlike many of my friends, I’ve been in prison ministry for 40 years now, and I run around with a lot of guys that did a lot of time. 25 years, 40 years. Li- they had double life without parole, now they’re out But I never got caught.

Yeah. And I was speaking at a women’s prison just recently, and I was talking to the women, and I was telling that story, and I said, “I got out and I [00:02:00] went for 19 years.” She said, “You must have been awful smart.” I said I wa- I wasn’t too smart or I wouldn’t have been doing that stuff.” But I did know ways and one thing was ’cause I didn’t talk to people.

I didn’t have a lot of… Kinda like the trench coat robbers. They robbed banks for 15 years- Yeah … and never got caught because they didn’t email, text, phone calls, none of that. Yeah. They would, they would- And they moved away too. Oh, yeah. Kinda moved away from their home territory, so they- Yeah

y- they weren’t having their buddies come up to them say, “Hey, what are you doing? Where you been?” “I haven’t seen you for a while.” And then they turn around and tell some cop that they know, “Hey, I can’t remember the guy’s name now. Billy Kirkpatrick. Billy Kirkpatrick.

He’s been out of town. He just got back.” And, you know- Yeah … then they put… Suddenly they get this notice about these bank robbers somewhere else. They… He didn’t do that. He stayed- … out of town. So Bill, let’s- No, that was me. Go ahead. Go, let’s go back and start you from the beginning.

Introduce to who you are to my guys, ’cause they don’t know you. I didn’t know you, ’cause you were such a low profile in this world. You said you got out of prison. Why don’t we [00:03:00] start with that? Where, what were you in the joint for originally? I was originally in there for Dyer Act, which is, in the feds, that’s interstate transportation- Yeah

of stolen motor vehicles. I was in the Marine Corps. I went AWOL. I got caught. I went back. I got back AWOL again. I went back. They put me on restrictions, said I couldn’t leave the base. I was at that point in my life where nobody could tell me what to do. And so I’s “I’m leaving the base,” and I left and I think I stole 10, 12 cars while I was out.

And then I got put in the… When I got back the next time, they put me in the brig, and I escaped from the brig. And and I stole a car off the base back in tho- in the ’60s, early ’60s, ’62, 3. People left their keys in their car. Yeah. And I went out. I was in the parachute locker painting. When the guard came in to check on me, I hit him in the back of the head with a full bucket of paint, a full gallon of paint, and I went out the window and I got a car, and I actually had a guy with me.

He said, “I’m going with you.” And so we got in the car, and when we got to [00:04:00] the gate, I said, “Now, if that guard steps out at the gate, I’m running over him.” And he’s “No, don’t do…” I said “Just shut up. I’m running over him.” And I got to the gate, and the guard stepped out and saluted me. And I’m like, “What in the world?”

I drove into town, run out of gas, Gary. Got out and stole… I don’t know how I remember this. I stole a ’62 maroon Bonneville. And when I was walking away from the car, my buddy looked back and started laughing. I said, “What are you laughing about?” He said, “I see why they saluted us. That car had a colonel sticker on the bumper.”

So then I stole that car, that Bonneville, drove into Mississippi. Because I always ask guys in prisons, “How many of you know when you escape from prison you need some different clothes?” Yeah. So I drove into a little town called Leland, Mississippi, and I was breaking in a clothing store to get me some clothes.

It was 11:00 at night, and I looked down, I was climbing up on some boxes to get to the roof to go in the skylight, ’cause they had analog alarms, they were easy to beat. [00:05:00] And I looked down and I saw a flashlight coming down the alley. So I dropped down, ran the other way, and I turned the corner and ran into the biggest, fattest Mississippi sheriff you ever seen.

And he had a gun, he had a gun about this long. And he stuck it right here, and he goes, “Where are you going, boy?” And I said, “With you, sir.” That’s what I said. And that was the end of the Marine Corps. So now I’ve taken a car across the state line, and the feds step in. And I went to… I got a six-year sentence.

I got what they call a zip six. And back then, before ’86, now in ’86 they passed it to 85%. Yeah. But prior to 80- prior to ’86, you could get out of the feds at one-third of your sentence. And so I got this six-year sentence. I got out in two years, and when I got out, I said, “I’m never getting caught again.

I’m never going back to prison.” And I went for ni- and I just started right then. And everything from then on was like, I got involved with pornography. I was promoting [00:06:00] pornography and prostitution. There’s a story in my book about me being a… I was a bodyguard and a chauffeur for a lady that had a cat house over in Independence.

You know where Inglewood was in Independence? And guys- You know where- … In- Independence is a suburb of Kansas City, but it’s like whole, decently large city for a suburb- Yeah … but it’s connected to it. Yeah. That’s where Harry Truman was from- That’s right … and retired back to. Yeah.

So y- you were over there probably on the east side of Independence. Inglewood’s kinda closer to Kansas City, over there- Yes … by Dogpatch, in what we call Dogpatch. That’s- The- … kinda totally lawless area. And so there was a guy there that I was friends with that had a record store. He was the first guy in Kan- his name was Tony Marino.

He’s in my book. He’s dead now. He was the first guy ever in Kansas City to sell paraphernalia in a record store. And he was making 25,000 a month- Wow … back in the… Yeah, when it started. That was a lot of money. And he, right next to him was a [00:07:00] store, it’s still there. I go by it all the time, ’cause we eat at the Englewood Cafe all the time.

It’s the only one on that little s- first strip there that’s got steps going up. And a lady up there had a cathouse for 12 years, prostitutes. And her main customers were executives from Ford Motor Company- … from General Motors, and from Hallmark Cards. And the reason, Gary, was because she knew if she had executives, they weren’t gonna talk.

Yeah. And she had beautiful women. She didn’t have ladies like up on Main and Troost and Prospect. Yeah. The- these women had all their teeth, and they were- … and they were good-looking. Yeah. And so the first guy, a- actually, who got me the job was Sal Rello, that o- that owned he owned that deluxe deli down on 430, where the Erotic City is now.

Oh, yeah. He owned that- Yeah … he owned that bar. Heard about him, yeah. And I told him for years, I said, “You need to open an adult bookstore here,” because Gary, he was the only bar in Kansas City, the only bar [00:08:00] in Kansas City that was open on Election Day. You know why? ‘Cause he was in the county. He was in the county.

He wasn’t in- Wasn’t in the city, yeah … he wasn’t in the city. And he was open on Election Day. And I told him, I said, “Man, if you’d open an adult bookstore, you could make a lot of money.” He never did, of course. Yeah. And then they put Erotic City in there, and it went good for a few years and stuff, yeah. But so he’s the one that told me about her. I went to interview with her, and she said, “I just have one question. Do you carry a gun?” I said, “No, ma’am, I carry two guns.” And she said, “You’re hired.” And so G- Gary, I picked her up every day on the Plaza. She lived in a $2,000 a month apartment on the Plaza in 1976.

Yeah. That was a lot of money. That’s five today. And, yeah, and I took her to get her facial every Tuesday. I took her to the beauty shop every Thursday, and read about her in my book. She was 80 years old. The name of that chapter in my book is 80-Year-Old Hooker. She was 80, 80 years old, and she [00:09:00] ran it like a business.

I had, I, she opened at 9:00 in the morning and closed at 5:00 at night, and ran it just five days a week, just like a business. And I wouldn’t be surprised she didn’t pay taxes. She was legit, man. Yeah. And I knew you can’t operate something like that for 12 years in Independence, Missouri, and not have the police know about it.

No, they knew about it. Oh, yeah. It’s that upper echelon, they were, they just steered people away from each other. Oh, yeah. Don’t worry about that. Oh, yeah. That’s right. So that was- So Bill, y- you, you moved from that- Into the drug business now, how did you, how’d you even get started in that? Where like 1960s, ’60, by the late ’60s, drugs are starting to, become more popular and there becomes a real market for it that’s among- Yeah

a much larger constituency than ever before. So now, how did you- I re- … move into that? I, oh, I really, for years and years, Gary, years, I didn’t have a partner [00:10:00] because I knew if I had to run, I didn’t want somebody… I didn’t know if my partner would tell on me, so I did everything by myself. I did one thing one time and I had to have a partner, and I stole a computer out of a crane at General Motors down in Leeds.

And I, and my fence, the chapter in my book, They Killed My Fence, that was Saul Andy. Yeah. And when Saul got killed, like they killed my fence, because anything I took to Saul, he’d buy it. Didn’t matter if it was guns or it didn’t matter what it was. And I didn’t never keep anything except cash.

If I had money, I’d keep it, but I’d never keep anything. I didn’t keep diamond rings or… I got rid of all that stuff, ’cause I never wanted anything to be able to identify me and tie me to a crime. And Saul, when he got killed, of course, then I started dealing with another guy. But Saul was taking all that and selling it to Junior Bradley, most of it, the stuff that Junior- And, and- … would be interested in. And guys- But, J- Junior Bradley, I gotta explain who Junior Bradley was. Junior Bradley was the mob fence in Kansas City. He was probably the biggest fence in Kansas City I got a [00:11:00] feeling. He, and what he started doing was trading Dilaudid especially for stolen property, and he had a little deli right across from police headquarters and City Hall, and everybody knew Junior.

Everybody loved Junior. Everybody liked Junior. He’s always doing favors for people. If you went in the penitentiary, you’d go talk to Junior and say, “Okay, what, what’s gonna happen when I get here? Can you help me out?” And he’ll say, “I’ll make some calls.” Or I, we had, we overheard him on a wiretap once saying-

a, a father called him and said, my son’s got to report up here to Leavenworth to the camp.” He said, “Okay, I’ll take care of it. I’ll be somebody there to meet him there.” And I’ve had many other reports but Junior was the main mob fence. So go ahead- Yeah … and we’ll talk what you were dealing with- Yeah

Junior Bradley. Yeah be- let’s back up. So you asked me about how I got into drugs. So all those years when I was married, I didn’t drink and I didn’t do drugs. I thought if you did dope, you were a d- I thought that’s why they call it dope, ’cause you were a dope if you did it. Yeah. So I didn’t do it, and I didn’t drink because I knew I had to always be able to think and make [00:12:00] decisions and…

‘Cause I cheated on my wife every day for 10 years, and I did crime every day for 10 years, and she never knew it till I wrote this book. And I gave her the first book actually. And so- When I got divorced and started smoking pot and doing stuff, hanging out with those people, and I started smoking weed, then the first time I bought an ounce of weed it was 40 bucks.

And I’m like, “Okay, how much is how much is more if you buy more? You can buy a half pound for this or you can buy…” So I said then I’ll… Give me a half a pound and I’m gonna sell,” yeah. So I started buying pounds and selling ounces, and man, all of a sudden I’m, now I’m smoking free and I’m making some money.

Yeah. And then I started sell- And by the time I ended, even when I was selling cocaine, I was selling 100 pounds of pot a week. I had one guy that would buy 100 pounds of pot from me every week. Yeah. And I’d just take him 100 pounds and he’d just bring my… Every day he’d stop by my house [00:13:00] with sacks of money, and that was, the way I got started in the drug world then.

And everything. It was from pot, it was, meth. We called it crank back then, not meth. And then I never did get real addicted to crank, but I got real addicted to cocaine. And of course, I was doing a drug class the other day. I teach a drug class, my wife and I, addictions class at our church.

And I said, when I started, I was only gonna sell it and not do it.” And because one guy said I was only gonna do it and never sell it.” And I said, “No, not me. I was gonna sell it and never do it.” But that didn’t last very long. And once you start doing it you’re in there, and, Yeah, really … and then, when I got arrested September 5th of ’82 the guy that I beat up I put 100 stitches in the back of his head with a ball bat, and it was in an active enforcement really. But he turned states. He’s the one, when Kenny… You remember Kenny Weld?

I remember the name. Was you still on the force when Kenny got busted in ’83? [00:14:00] Yeah. ’80- Yeah, I would’ve been. Okay. So- I have some vague memory, I don’t remember the, all the details. At the time it was the biggest drug bust, it was the biggest just drug bust in, I know in Kansas City, maybe.

They caught him out there in Blue Springs with 29 pounds of cocaine, and we were selling- Yeah … cocaine to the people that were selling cocaine to Kenny. And so the guy that I beat up gave a 20-page, which is like reading a book, 20 typewritten pages. Yeah. 20 typewritten pages, and he named every name involved in the circle that he knew, and that implicated us as being some of the leading cocaine dealers in Kansas City.

Yeah. Now, when I go speak in churches and a pastor gets up and says, “Folks, today we’ve got the biggest cocaine dealer that ever lived.” I get up and say, “You know what? I don’t mean to correct your pastor.” But I was implicated as being one of the leading cocaine- I was not the leading cocaine dealer. There was a lot of people bigger than me.

But that’s that’s how it all started and [00:15:00] of course my case, I never did… the drugs never came in. The lawyers that I had, because when I got busted it was on a Sunday, and that’s part of my story. I always ask inmates, “How many of you have been arrested on a weekend?” And every hand goes up.

Yeah. And I say, and then I say, “What happens when you get arrested on a weekend?” They all yell, “Nothing.” ‘Cause you’re not going anywhere till Monday morning, at the very least. I got arrested 2:00 Sunday afternoon. By that time, Gary, I had three goals. When I was about 30, I got nicknamed by one of the key mafia figures Crazy Bill, ’cause I did some crazy things.

Like I ran through a bar. You know where the old Club Royal was on Main? Oh yeah. There was a bar right ac- I’ve drunk there many times. Okay. There was a bar across the street that I had a girlfriend working in, and we got in a fight, and I was gonna cut the bar in half with a chainsaw. And I had my buddy drop me at the back parking lot.

I fired the chainsaw up, I opened the door, and when the door… When I stepped inside, the door [00:16:00] closed with the closer, and the dar- the bar was totally dark. It was not a bar where you could even buy a bag of potato chips. It was strictly alcohol. And when you get- Yeah … in a bar like that, they’re dark. And that door shut, and I thought, “I’m gonna bend over and start cutting this bar, and somebody just shoot me in the back.”

So I just wa- I just walked through the bar with the chainsaw running and went out the front door, and Kenny picked me up in the front, and off we went. And so because of that, I got nicknamed Crazy Bill. Yeah. By 30 years old, I had three goals: money, power, and influence. Now, I told you as we were selling a lot of cocaine.

So I stayed in $500 a night hotels. I ride in limousines. I bought $20,000 worth of cocaine for a one-night party. So I had money, and I had enough power to make a phone call and have somebody killed, so I had power. And I had enough influence that when I got arrested Sunday afternoon, now I love telling this to a police officer.

I was on a show in Texas with a cop, and we called it the Con and the Cop. [00:17:00] But I love telling this story. I got arrested September 5th. 2:00, 2:00 PM is when they booked us into the jail, and I made a phone call back to Kansas City to somebody who was in politics, and I said, “You know who to call.” And that person called the judge we were selling cocaine to.

And I ask this question in prisons, “How many of you know when you’re selling cocaine to a judge, he don’t want you in jail?” And I walked out of that jail, Gary, at 1:30 Monday morning. Wow. I got arrest- less than 12 hours after I got arrested on a weekend. And when I walked out of that jail, I said, “Bill Corum, you’ve arrived.

You got money.” “You got power, and you got influence.” But the one thing I didn’t have was peace. Yeah. I didn’t have any peace, man. No peace. Yeah. If I was in a restaurant eating and a cop walked in, I’d put money on the table and go out the door. If I saw a UPS driver, I got nervous ’cause he had a uniform on.

I didn’t have any peace. And then after I became a Christian, I was reading in the Bible [00:18:00] one day, and it said, “A wicked man runs when no one’s chasing him.” And I went, “Oh my gosh, I left a lot of steak dinners sitting on the table.” And wasn’t anybody chasing you. Nobody. That cop didn’t even know I was in there.

He probably didn’t even know who I was. Really? He just come in… He just came in there to eat, and I thought he was after me. So Bill, I always like to go into the, the nuts and bolts of some of these things. And we kinda left one thing hanging, is the Saul Landy story. Now guys, Saul Landy was a big sports bettor.

And Saul Landy had a, wasn’t it a metal- Square Deal Junk- Square Deal Junkyard. Square… He had a junkyard. Square Deal. He bought a lot of scrap metal and dealt in scrap metal, but he also would buy most anything from, from- Yeah … thieves, from boosters- Yeah … and burglars and people like that. That’s where Bill met him.

But he’s a huge sports gambler, and they thought he might testify against our boss, Nick Civella, because he had been allowed to bet down at The Trap, down with Frankie Tusa, who was the underling [00:19:00] that handled all the sports gambling for Nick Civella. Isn’t that right? Isn’t that the way that went down?

Oh, yeah, and Bobby Maroon was running The Trap at the time. And- yeah … so do you remember the guy that, that paid for his murder? Remember that guy, Johnny Franks, Johnny Frank Avella? That’s what they said, yep. Yeah. Yep. He had, he had- That’s what they said. He had some connections. But he got…

But Johnny Franks got the order from somebody else. Yeah. Yeah … the bug, the buck stopped with Johnny Franks now, didn’t it? Yes. ‘Cause he hired another guy, who then he hired a Black guy, which was- That’s right … truly unusual. Who then- That’s right … hired a couple of young Black street kids and that was even more unusual, and they killed this Saul Landy and his wife.

So they keep a f- And then they sang and then they sang like The Temptations. Exactly, yeah. That, and that’s that w- some claim that Johnny Franks did that just on his own, trying to impress Nick Civella. Some people say that somebody else told him to do it. I don’t…

It never, he never talked, so it never came about. Yeah. [00:20:00] Did you ever hear anything about that? I never heard anything except what you just said, that he- Okay … he never talked, and Nick, Nick never got convicted. He never- Yeah … but here’s the thing that, what you said. The guys that they hired to do it, because back in those days as y- you’d go to…

i’d go to the electric chair before somebody, before I’d tell on somebody. Yeah. I’m not gonna tell on anybody. Go ahead and put me in the gas chamber, I’m not telling on nobody. But those guys would, they’d sing like The Temptations. They weren’t gonna, they- Yeah … they wouldn’t- Those street kids

If they offered them a day in jail, they wouldn’t take it. If you’ll tell us, we won’t, we’re only gonna put you in jail for a week if you’ll tell. Yeah. They wouldn’t tell. So how did that work with you and Saul Landy? You weren’t a sports bettor you didn’t have anything to do with that.

You were a thief. Yeah, and I don’t know- And- I honestly, you know what? Gary, I don’t remember who even told me to go to Saul with stolen merchandise, ’cause I was hitting a lot of construction jobs back then. [00:21:00] Ah. I worked construction, and I was in the union, and I was stealing off these jobs all the time.

Big- Ah, yeah … big amounts of stuff. Like they’d start a brand-new job, and they’d have all brand-new tools, and I’d go over there and take everything they had. And then I’d take it all to Saul. And matter of fact, one time I did a job over in, it was a eight-story high-rise over in Kansas City, Kansas, down around Argentine, in the Argentine area.

And I was on the job, I was working on the job, and we just started. And we had all this trailer, a whole trailer load of tools. And I went over and got all the tools, and the last thing I took out was the cutting torch. I cut the lock off the door, ’cause I had a key to get in. And so when I got to work the next morning, I had everything in my truck.

I had a tonneau cover over my truck and had all these tools in the back of my truck, and parked in the parking lot. I got there and I called Johnny Myers, who was running the job, and Johnny’s been dead for years. I said, “Hey, Johnny, somebody hit our job last night.” He’s “What?” I said, “Yeah, they cut the lock off.

They got everything.” [00:22:00] And he said call the police and I’ll be out there in just a few minutes.” And so the cops come, couple detectives and he was telling what they, what was going on. I’m standing there listening to the whole thing. And there was a generator, a big generator, and I was real strong back then, Gary.

I was 6’3″ and weighed 275 and I carried this generator down the steps and this… and Johnny said, or the cop said that, how much that generator weigh?” And he told him, and he said it had to be at least two guys, if not three. But no, no one guy could carry that down them steps.” And Johnny turned around and he said, “Except Superman,” ’cause that’s what they called me on the job.

And they laughed, and he laughed, and I laughed. Yeah. And then that night after I got off work, I took it all down to Square Deal and sold it all to Saul. Yeah. Interesting. So- All right. Thanks so much … and I did that stuff all, yeah, I did that stuff all the time. But I honestly do not remember who introduced me to Saul Landy.

Yeah. But I know that for years and years we were buddies. And when I first met him, I used a, I had an alias that I always went by. I had two a- two aliases. One of them was a guy I [00:23:00] was in prison with that was from East St. Louis, and I knew everything about him, ’cause we were real good friends.

I knew his middle name, I knew his mom and dad’s name. I knew everything about him, so I’d use his name. So if anybody ever asked me a question, I knew. The other guy was a cousin of mine that I hadn’t seen for y- I used his name, ’cause I knew everything about him. So what, the, when I first met my wife, we went to a dance one night.

We weren’t married yet, and we were walking up the steps, and this guy walking down said, “Hey, Jim. How you doing, Jim?” And I said, “Good.” We got in, sat down. My wife looked at me and she said, “I thought your name was Bill.” I s- said, “It is. It is Bill.” I said, “He probably just had me mixed up with somebody else.”

‘Cause there was a lot of people in the inner circles, yeah. So when I met Saul Andy, something inside of me told me to… Because I met Saul, and I told him my name was Jim Gardner. Yeah. And he’s we did a couple deals, and then something inside of me told me to b- be honest with Saul.

And so I sat him down one day, I said, “I wanna tell you something. I use that name as an alias. My [00:24:00] real name is Bill Corum,” and da. And I was so glad I did, because later I would be in the River Key in a restaurant or a bar with Saul, and some of the guys were in there, and I thought if I’d have used the…

If he’d introduced me as Jim Gardner- Yeah … and then later they find out who I am, I might not be here. Yeah. You know what I mean? You might- So I- They might think you’re undercover cop or a- Exactly. Exactly. So I just- Informant or something, yeah … it, a- and that, I think that’s in my book. I told that story because I just, I felt like being upfront with him, and I, because I trusted him, yeah. I actually, in, in the book I think I said if Nick Civella trusted him, I thought I could trust him. Yeah. But a- apparently, apparently- Bet he didn’t trust him all that much … no. Yeah. Because right there, out there on Pennsylvania, or let’s see, where’d they… They lived right off 75th, right behind the what was that restaurant on 75th?

The Italian place? Yeah … I starts with a G, I think. Yeah, I know. Just north of Ward Parkway Shopping Center. Yeah. Yeah. I know the neighborhood, yeah. Oh, Cat- was it Cat? [00:25:00] No. C- it doesn’t matter. But he lived right down that str- he lived on Washington. Yeah. Right there. Yeah. About 77th or 8th and Washington, in Washington, yeah. I remember that. Yeah. But that’s how I met Saul. And what, and guys, what those guys did that night, they tried to make it look like a home invasion robbery, but ended up killing him and his w- and I think they raped his wife too. But, They didn’t kill her. They left her alive

they, they left her alive. But- Yeah … they really m- tried to make it look like a home invasion robbery, not a hit, which was, at least they were that smart. They just weren’t- Yeah … couldn’t keep their mouth shut, and they couldn’t, weren’t smart enough to not tell their friends, so they got caught.

Good, good thing there wasn’t no Facebook back then, Gary. Yeah, it’s crazy. It’s crazy. Crazy world you live in, so- these kids- Bill … yeah. What happened? What happened? You had all this going. You had money, power, influence. Yeah, I- You caught a cocaine case. Now the thing about that cocaine case, that you said, I thought you said Wells.

It’s Kenny Weld, isn’t it? The race car driver? W-E-L-D. Kenny Weld. W-E-L-D. Yeah. He was a race [00:26:00] car driver at that time. I, I- Kinda well-known, and he had a whole set of… He had a big company that sold wheels … Weld Wheels … fancy wheels. He was really doing well, and then he got involved with a b- huge, big cocaine thing.

I didn’t know, remember you were part of that, but I remember that. A multi-million dollar- Yeah … wheel business. Yeah. I still am a big… I was a dirt track guy. I grew up on dirt. Yeah. I love dirt. I actually took his brother, Greg, who actually owned the company, I took Greg to his first… the first race that Greg ever raced in, I drove him to the races.

And then Kenny and I and Greg, and they won the Knoxville Nationals. Greg raced in the Indianapolis 500 four times. Yeah. They were a big name in the country, the Welds. And making millions of dollars, Gary. Even back then, they were making millions of dollars. Yeah. And then Kenny got caught up in the cocaine and started messing with it, and next thing you know…

he was making a lot of money in the cocaine too, but- Yeah … he got caught with 29 pounds, which was a large amount. But that statement that guy [00:27:00] made on me, ’cause I always felt guilty because Kenny got busted because the statement that he made, he named Kenny Weld in that statement, and it wasn’t long after that they arrested Kenny.

But I’m sure they were already watching him, for sure. But then I, and I don’t know, Kenny got eight year, Kenny got 25 years. He went to Sandstone first up in Minnesota. Yeah. And he only did 52 months, so I’m not sure, because back then a third would’ve been eight, eight and a half years or something, right?

Yeah. And he only did 52 months, so I don’t know how that, maybe it was money or whatever. I don’t know. Yeah. But he turned his life around in prison, but then what’s the sad deal, when I turned my life around, I tried to get in touch with Kenny Weld, and he wouldn’t talk to me. He- Yeah … he was avoid- I think he was afraid that I was gonna come after him because the guy I beat up was the guy that was…

We were all involved in the cocaine world together. Joker John, I don’t know if you knew who Joker John Agrusa was. I [00:28:00] don’t remember that n- I don’t remember that name now. Was he- They had a bar out on, they had a bar on, out on 23rd Street. No, I don’t, I don’t- Joker John’s. John, his last name was Agrusa.

He had a brother- Agrusa, yeah … named Nick Agrus. New- Nick Agrusa’s brother. Yeah, I co- do kinda remember that. He went down- Yeah … with that whole thing. See, I was- That was ’83. I was I was off into something else during those years. Okay. No- That was early in the coke, crack cocaine thing … no, John, w- after I beat up Pink Mike, John Agrusa left town.

He moved to Arizona, ’cause he was scared of me. A l- a lot of people- ’cause I was crazy. I did some crazy things, and people were scared. And so when I got arrested on that deal, he left town. He went to Arizona. And then Kenny got busted, Kenny Weld. And the, some of the people in that… My dad read that 20-page statement, and my dad said…

And my dad was an old guy. He was born in 1909, but he read that statement, and he said, “This guy’s worth, life ain’t worth a nickel, is it?” And I [00:29:00] said, “No.” ‘Cause the guy that wrote the statement. Then I got arrest- you knew Jim Smart was a judge? Yeah, I remember the name. I didn’t know him.

Okay. Jim… back then, Jim was a lawyer, and then later became appellate court judge. Yeah. And he’s retired now, but a real good friend of mine. So when I, that happened, I got… My case ended in May of ’84. Started September 5th of ’82, and ended in May of ’84. And in June of ’85, 13 months later, I got sued by the guy I beat up.

Me and the other couple guy. One of the guys that was with me is dead, Charlie Elmer. I don’t know if you ever heard that name, but he was a- No, don’t know that name … cocaine dealer. But anyway I was just gonna forget about it, and I showed that to my dad, that indict- or not indictment, the notice that I need to appear in court.

Statement. Yeah. Yeah, and my dad s- no, not the statement, when he sued me. [00:30:00] Oh, the oh, okay. Then they filed charges. Yeah, the counter-suit. And I showed it to my dad one day and I wasn’t even gonna go. I said, “Oh, God will take care of it.” And my dad read it, and he’s “Bill, you gotta get a lawyer.” Yeah.

You’re being charged, and so I went and got a lawyer, and I got Jim Smart. And and Jim tried to go and do a deposition on that guy, on Pink Mike. Could never find him. Ah. And I di- I don’t know, I honestly don’t know. I know I didn’t have nothing to do with… But nobody’s ever been able to find him.

But I’m suspecting, ’cause my dad said when he read that 20 pa- he said his life isn’t worth a nickel. Because he named judge in there, a judge in there. He named Kenny Weld in there. He named a lot of other big-name guys, and he’s disappeared, so nobody know. I haven’t seen him since the day in court in 1982.

So who knows where he’s at. Yeah. If he’s around. I don’t know. But- Interesting. What did you finally cop? Did you have a full trial, or did you go ahead and cop a plea in the end? That’s interesting you’d [00:31:00] ask because when we first, when we got out of jail at 1:30 Monday morning, the 3rd of the 6th of September, he wal- the lawyer came and walked us out with, we…

we had left, we were staying in the Embassy Suites downtown. You know where that was at? Oh, yeah. It was 500 bucks a night, and we had left two s- two s- brief- briefcases there with one had cocaine in it uncut, and the other one had about $60,000 in it. And so we went down. We actually called…

he’s dead now, so I can tell you who it was. Jerry Schanzer that owned Napoleon Bakery. And Jerry was a big… i’m surprised that you didn’t, you talk about bookmakers. Jerry was a big bookmaker. Yeah. Exactly. And Schanzer- I remember him, yeah … Schanzer owned Mother’s down on 18th and Baltimore. Not Mother’s.

Granny’s. Granny’s, yeah. He owned Granny’s at 18th and Baltimore. Yeah, a lot of mob guys used- And then he- … to go down there and eat. Oh, every time I went in there I saw [00:32:00] somebody. Yeah. And then later he opened up one over in Mission shopping center there on Mission Road. And then they then they ended up opening up Napoleon, him and his brother Larry.

And then they’re both dead now. But we, this is how much we trusted Jerry. We told Jerry, “Go…” We called Jerry from the jail and said, “Go down to the Embassy and get our, get a briefcase.” And Jerry went down and he drove halfway to Warrensburg and ha- something told him to open it- Oh, wow … and he opened the one, he opened the one that had the cocaine in it.

Oh, shit. And he called us and said, “I got the wrong briefcase.” And it… No, he said, “I can’t come and get you with this.” And so he went back to the Embassy and got the right one. Came down, and we made bond that night. Then the next morning was… Okay, that was we got busted on Sunday the 5th. Monday we got out.

The lawyer [00:33:00] said, Mike, I don’t know if you ever knew Mike and what was his dad’s name? The Fi- it was Fitzgerald and Fitzgerald was the name of the firm in, down in Warrensburg. Warensburg, yeah. I don’t know them. Yeah. And Mike and Charlie Fitzgerald. So ’cause I called People’s Office and said, “Hey, this happened.”

And they said, “Stick with those guys. Those guys are the best in the county. They know the county. They know the prosecutor, the judges and everything. Stick with them.” So we went in. He told us, “Don’t come in tomorrow morning,” ’cause it was 1:30 in the morning Monday morning. He said, “Come and see me Wednesday.”

Yeah. And so we went… no, he said, “Come and see me Tuesday,” ’cause that was 1:30 in the morning. And we walked in there that morning and he said, “Come and see me tomorrow morning, Tuesday morning.” And bring me $10,000 apiece. And I wish I had a video of it, because it can be on America’s Funniest Home Videos.

I walked into his office with a white bank bag and dumped out $30,000 on his desk in cash, and he opened [00:34:00] his drawer like this and scooped it into the drawer. And I said, “Mike, there’s a lot more where that came from.” He said, “Bill, I can’t. It’s… I gotta do everything legitimately.” Yeah. And I said, “Okay.”

So the first meeting, his dad was in there and he was in there, and the three of us, and he said, “Guys, Dad and I have talked, and you guys might wanna think about getting separate attorneys.” And I said, “For what?” He said, “Because if one of you take a plea.” Yeah. I almost jumped over the desk. I said, “There’ll be no plea.

There will be no plea. We’re not guilty. We’re not gonna admit we’re guilty. They can send us to the electric chair. We didn’t do it.” Now, Gary, they took us out of the house at 2:00 on Sunday afternoon in broad daylight. First, they s- we sent the guy out the back. He was totally naked when we got there.

He was laying in bed. He’d been doing Dilaudids and Quaaludes all night, and he was [00:35:00] blood from the crown of his head to the soles of his feet. His whole back was red. We walked him out the door in- totally naked in front of the whole world and told him, “Go out there and tell them there’s nobody else in the house.”

We were so jacked up. And here’s the thing, I have to tell you this. All those years that I got away with stuff is because I was smart, and now I’m snow blind. There was a song years ago by Styx called Snow Blind- Yeah … and it’s about cocaine. It’s about… And I’d been up for 86 hours when we went down to Holden.

I had not- Okay … closed my eyes for 86 hours, so I was in m- I wasn’t in my right mind. Anyway, that was… So when we we said, “No plea bargain. There’ll be no plea bargains.” And for seven months… No, I’m sorry, for four months. That was October, November, December, January, February, March, April. No, seven months.

For seven months. For seven months [00:36:00] we went to court multiple times. The whole police department, I don’t know if we can- I guess we’ll say it, because it’s done. It’s history. But I had a, I had two grocery sacks, the old brown grocery sacks on the couch that I’d inventoried. I had $62,000 in cash.

I had… Because it was in envelopes, and I- they were $10,000. I was throwing them in there. 62,000 in cash, about four pounds of pot, three gallon Ziploc bags full of precious jewels. Er emeralds, rubies, and stuff like that. Some hash- a 12-gauge shotgun. I think that was all. Maybe maybe it…

Whatever. When they, when… The first time we ever went to court and my partner had, the one that’s dead, Charlie, he had a leather Gucci bag that we always had with us, and it had four or five grams of cocaine in it. He took his diamond rings off, put them in there. His watch, he had a Rolex [00:37:00] watch he put in there, and about 3,000 in cash.

That was in the car. That was never mentioned in court. No guns were ever mentioned in court. No guns were ever mentioned in court. I had a brand new, I had a brand new fif- not- model 59 nine millimeter. That was never mentioned in court. That 12-gauge shotgun was never mentioned in court. They said that they found a couple envelopes of cash, and they found a gram.

Now, there was about, I think there was about probably a half a, maybe eight, eight grams or no more than that. It was ounces. Four or five ounces of cocaine. Oh, yeah. They said they found one, they said they found one gram of a, approximately one gram of a substance believed to be cocaine. Yeah. And my lawyer said…

And they said they’d send it to Jeff City for analysis. And my lawyer said, “And what were the analysis of that?” They said they haven’t come [00:38:00] back yet. This is two months after they arrested us. They did- And they found approximately one gram, and there was ounces of cocaine in there. They found a couple envelopes with approximately $2,000 in cash.

There was $62,000. The car I was driving, so when I got arrested, I had the keys in my pocket. So when they booked us into jail, when we walked out at 1:30 Monday morning, they gave us back our property. I had the keys in my pocket. So the car’s… Now, this is a brand new ’80, this was a ’82. This was an ’81 Trans Am.

The car’s in Holden. The police chi- And they said they were gonna confiscate the car because it had Kansas tags on it, that they wanted to go through the car da. The police chief changed the ignition and was driving that car for his personal car. It cost my buddy, because it was a friend of mine, T- Ronnie M- Ron McGee, it was his car.

It cost him $10,000 and an attorney to get his car back from them. So bottom line, every time we [00:39:00] went to court, several ti- my lawyer would say, “I’d like to call Officer Gary Jenkins up.” Gary Jenkins is not on the force anymore. He moved to Arizona.” “I’d like to call so-and-so up next time we go in.”

He’s not here anymore. He moved to wherever.” So all the money and all the guns and all the drugs, they split it up and no, nobody ever… So the thing was so dirty. So what happens is we’d been going to court for that seven months, And then I become a Christian. I walk into his offi- and we’re adamant, we’re not plea bargain.

We don’t want separate lawyers. We want you two guys to represent us. We’re gonna beat this thing. And, oh, and I told, because when that guy gave that 20-page statement after he got out of the hospital, this was a month later or something, he called us all in. We went in. He sh- hands each one of us 20-page statement.

He said, “Guys, let me tell you something. I’m defending you on an assault with intent to kill charge. I’m gonna get that reduced, but if you get busted [00:40:00] dealing cocaine, you’ve got to stop dealing cocaine, ’cause if you get busted dealing cocaine while I’m on this case, it’s gonna complicate the case.” Yeah.

“You gotta stop.” And I said, “Mike, I don’t tell you how to practice law, and you don’t tell me how to make money. You just keep doing what you do, and I’ll keep doing what I do, and I’ll keep bringing you money.” And he never said another word. Three or four months later, I become a Christian. I walk into his office by myself.

And when I walked in the door, he said, “What happened to you?” If you look at that book on the picture of my, on the back of my book, that was four months before I became a Christian. And the Bible says the eyes are the windows of the soul. I had a very dark soul. Yeah, I can see. I had a very dark soul.

Yeah. And so he goes, “What happened to you?” And I said, “What do you mean?” And he said, “You don’t look the same.” And I said, “I’m not the same.” And I told him what happened. And he said… And I said, “We’ve got a problem.” And he goes, “What’s our [00:41:00] problem, Bill?” I said, “I can’t lie anymore.” He said, “You’re right. We’ve got a problem.”

‘Cause we’d been lying for seven months. We told… He knew the story. He said, “I just need to know this. I’ll defend you guys. I’ll beat this case, but I need to know.” So we told… And at this point now, seven months later, he said, “There’s no way out of this thing. You guys are going to prison.” He said, “I can help you figure out a way to get to the good prison, but you’re going to prison.”

So when I go in that day and he goes, “What’s wrong? What what happened?” And I told him, and he said, “You don’t look the same.” I said, “I’m not the same.” I said, “We got a problem.” He goes, “What?” I said, “We can’t lie. I can’t lie anymore.” And he said I’ve got an idea.” And I said, “What?” He said if I enter a plea bargain, I think we can do this.”

And he said, “You guys won’t go to prison.” And he said, “Talk to Mike and Charlie and see what they say.” So I called them. We went down, met with him. And this time they looked at me and said, “What do you think we should do, Bill?” [00:42:00] I said, “I think we ought to take the plea bargain.” We got five years’ probation and a $5,000 fine.

Now, the crazy thing- that was on the assault. Yeah, they- That was on the assault. But you still got a cocaine case out here pending with the feds. No. No. No. That, if, that, that- 20-page statement that implicated me was never, he never got it out of his office. It never went out of Fitzgerald’s office.

So it, he didn’t tell it to… He told it to whoever he told it to, but to the police, and the police were all crooks anyway . Yeah. So I don’t know who he told. I just know that our lawyer said if this cocaine thing comes up, it’s gonna complicate our case. It never came up. Oh. And so maybe it was the mercy of God, I don’t know.

Because it was a 20-page typewritten statement naming judges, Kenny Weld, all these guys, and all these people started falling after that. And so anyway, we ended up getting a $5,000 fine and five-year probation. Now, the crazy thing, if you read my book, Charlie and Mike both went, they got called and they [00:43:00] went and reported.

I never got a call. 13 months later, I had a nephew getting married up in in Wisconsin, and I wanted to go to that wedding, and I knew I couldn’t leave without permission, but I didn’t have anybody to ask permission from. And when that guy sued me, G- Gary, when that guy sued me and I went and got the lawyer that I told you I went and got, I said, “By the way…”

He said, “I wanna take this case.” I said, “Great.” I said, “By the way, I got arrested September 5th of ’82. The case ended in May. I was placed on five-year probation, a $5,000 fine. I’ve never heard from anybody. What do you think I sh- should do?” He said, “Bill, you need to write a letter.” And I put the letter in the book.

I wrote a letter and said da. I’d like to be supervised. Please contact me.” 13 months, and they, within two days they were knocking on my front door. And that’s when I started reporting. And Kay King was my first pr- [00:44:00] probation officer, and she asked me all the whole story, and I had sat with her for two hours and told her the whole story.

She asked me how many drugs I did, what I did. I said, “I’ve done everything there is, from, marijuana to heroin to… I’ve done it all.” And I did massive amounts of everything. And I was drinking two quarts of whiskey at the end every day. And people are like, “You can’t drink two quarts of whiskey.” I said, “You never did cocaine, did you?”

‘Cause when you’re doing, ’cause when you’re doing cocaine, you can’t get drunk. And so anyway that… And I asked her when I left her office, I said, “So does my probation start now, or does it start back then?” She said, “No, Bill, it starts today.” Oh, really? I said- Wow. I said, “For 13 months I’ve been going to churches and schools and telling people how bad drugs are and how bad alcohol is and how bad this is.”

And I said, “I’ve not had a traffic ticket. I haven’t had a traffic ticket.” The only ticket I’ve got in the last 43 years, I had a bad car wreck where I got T-boned at 70 miles an [00:45:00] hour. I pulled out in front of a guy. It was my fault. And that’s the only ticket I’ve had in 43 years. I haven’t been stopped by the police.

And she said, “I’m sorry, Bill, it starts today.” Guess what? I did the whole five year. I went from then, I got off in ’89 or something, I th- it was almost five years I did. My partners, they only did a year and a half, and they let them off. And they were still dealing cocaine. They were still dealing.

They were still dealing. Matter of fact, one of them’s brother his mama died, and the funeral was at Passantino Brothers over there on the avenue. And I went to the funeral, and I was sorry, and we were hugging. And me and him sat down and were talking, and he had a little leather Gucci bag. And he said, “Hey, I’m go- now listen.”

He said, “I’m going to the bathroom. You wanna go with me?” I said, “No, brother.” Yeah. And I got up and left. He wanted to go do some cocaine. Damn. And that was years after, he’d been… Anyway. Yeah. But I’m glad I had to do the whole five years because I got to speak [00:46:00] in some… She called me once and said, “I got a friend that teaches a criminal justice class at a college, and they’ve had detectives and they’ve had police officers, they’ve had lawyers, they’ve had parole officers, but they’ve never had a criminal.

Would you come and speak?” And I said, “I’d be glad to.” And I f- and then I called the professor and I said, “I’ve been asked to come.” And he said, “Yeah, we’re looking forward.” And I said I have to tell you one thing. I cannot come in there and speak and not tell your class that my life was radically changed April 15th, 1983, when I came into encounter with God through his son, Jesus Christ.”

He said, “That’s okay.” And I went and told them, so I was glad I got to stay on parole for five years. So- So Bill what are you doing now? I know you- I’m just- you’ve got a prison ministry. Do you speak- Yeah … at prisons and, and- That’s all I do, Garrett. 40 years just- How does one get into that?

Do you have an agent that booked you into different prisons- No … or how does that work? No. No. I started going in 1986 with [00:47:00] a guy named Bill Glass, who was a NFL player. Played for the Cleveland Browns. He was an All-Pro. Actually started… He got, he retired from football in 1968, so that’s how old he was.

Started the ministry in ’72, and was the biggest prison ministry in the nation, had 30,000 volunteers. And I started going in as just a volunteer, and then he asked me to be a platform speaker, and I was a platform speaker for him for 30 years. And went to, I’ve been in over 500 different prisons in my life, and I do prisons almost every day, a prison or a jail almost every day.

We’re getting ready to do, this will be our 17th car show up at Crossroads in Cameron, and this will be the biggest car show ever in a US prison, in history. Last year was the biggest. We had 80 cars last year, but this year we’re planning on- by car sh- car show, what do you mean? Like guys bring their classic cars up and…?

And drive them in on the prison yard. Oh, wow. And the inmates get to come out, walk around and look at them. And last year we had 80 cars and bikes. [00:48:00] This year we’re gonna have 250 motorcycles and cars. Wow. And we’re gonna feed 2,000 people. We’ve got… W- we’re gonna have 2,000 meals that day for the inmates and the staff, all the staff.

So that’s what I’ve been doing for all these years, and will keep doing it as long as I can, wow. But as far as… I was gonna ask you about old Joey Rags. I knew Joe Ragusa. Did you ever deal with that guy? Did you? Not directly. I followed him a lot and almo- we almost caught him too, in a hit one time.

And then they saw us and they had boogied on out. But I know one story- That would have been a- … about him. He was, He needed to go… I heard this later. He needed to go to a meeting downtown, down to City Market with the other mob guys, ’cause, he was right next to Charlie Martina, and he went on several hits with these guys during the Spiro-Savella war.

So he’s out at the plumbing place where he was working, so he… Guy comes in- Where was he at? Was he at St. John Plumbing? I don’t remember the name of it. It was over there by N- Jackson, Ninth and Jackson, or Truman and Jackson, somewhere over there [00:49:00] on the east side. I can’t remember the name of it now.

And so he need… said… told this guy, he said, “Hey,” he said, “I need to go down to the market.” He said, “Can you give me a ride down there?” And the guy said you got your car here.” He said no, you give me a ride.” So he gets in, lays down in the back seat. So the guy takes him down there, then he gets out.

No, he was a real deal. Boy, that old market was something, wasn’t it? Yeah. That old City Market. Oh, man. Yeah, heard mob guys out there. Yeah they had a pretty big… Hey, what about, I was gonna ask you about a couple guys that were big heroin kingpins, Sam Haley and Aaron Gant. Was you involved when they were really big in Kansas City?

Y- I was a young policeman, ’72, ’73, ’74, and Aaron Gant and Sam Haley were like the big ducks. And they had this war going between the two little heroin organizations. And Gant was, he was in with some guys, and Aaron Gant called him Junebug. He was in with the God, there was a whole family, the Denmans.

He was in with [00:50:00] these guys. And so they… And Sam Haley was… I never did understand the difference, but they had two different organizations and they hated each other is my understanding. Oh, they did. Yeah. How about Ramseys? Did you know who the Ramseys were? I don’t see. The Ramsey brothers?

I remember that na- Huh? I know that name. I think one of those crime families that, that stole- they were- … money in the neighborhood and- They were the- … everyone else … they were killers, all of them. Yeah. I think there was eight boys, and at one time seven or eight of them were in Missouri for murder.

And I was seeing… I was in Potosi. And Rambo, R- Roy Rambo Ramsey they called him, and he’s the one that they got a… Remember when the la- what’d they call them that you put on the roof of your car? Oh, Landau top. Landau top, yeah. Yeah. That wasn’t the word I’m looking for, though.

Whatever it was, th- you could have them tops put on. Yeah. They got one put on in a poster shop over on Prospect. Oh. And [00:51:00] when they called and said, “Your car’s ready,” they went up there and killed everybody in the shop and took their car and left. And then they went out to Belton or Grandview, and there was an old couple that had a bunch of old coins and stuff, and they knew one of the people.

They knew one of the brothers, and I think it was Roy. And they went out there and knocked on the door, and of course, they let them in. They told their girlfriend to stay in the car, and they went in and they shot them They were 65 and 66 years old. The little old lady was 65 and the old man was… They shot each one of them three times, and just for a few dollars worth of coins, man.

They were murderers. They were killers. But I was up in Potosi and Roy asked me, he said, “Would you go see my dad?” And I was… I said… He said, “He’s in a nursing home.” And Gary, his father, was a hardworking man, had never committed a crime in his life, and he was in this nursing home. And I went and saw him and prayed for him and stuff.

But here are these… He [00:52:00] had these eight sons that were murderers. They were killers. And the old man was in a nursing home dying. And, Roy asked me if I’d go see him, so I went and saw him, prayed for him. But yeah, they were something else, them guys. Interesting. You you mentioned Sam Haley.

There w- we had, here just in your area, was a guy named Michael Cantu, who used to be a fire captain. Had… Was a, a big time cocaine dealer. During those years, he got into- Yeah … cocaine. He and his brother Joe and Joe Maggio, and they had a cocaine deal going, and he got back out.

He had a body shop over on Independence Avenue, and two Black guys came in and executed him, basically. Left the employee there. There wasn’t anything to steal, and executed him. And the drawings, one of them we… There was a lot of speculation it looked like Sam Haley. So I think he was- Might’ve been … I think he was supplying Black dealers with cocaine I believe.

I saw him meeting with some guys once that that- Yeah, they were- … I didn’t know who they were, but they all looked like Black cocaine dealers they were killers, all them guys. Haley and Gant and those guys. Did you, I asked you about, Yeah, heavy idea. [00:53:00] I- here’s a question. I just got an inquiry from one of Gant’s relatives of…

They were wanting to know more about Aaron Gant getting killed. See, he got out of the joint. He went to Missouri State Penitentiary, I think it was for drugs. Yep. And he went to a club that night, and somebody walked in, was walked in, shot him, and walked out right away. Another Black dude.

So this relative was asking me if I knew any more about it. I didn’t know any more about it. You remember that deal at all? I don’t remember that. Okay. I di- I actually, I was thinking that Aaron Gant and Sam Haley had been dead for years, but, that was- this was years ago. This was quite a while ago.

Okay. This was probably- Yeah, I thought he might have died in prison or something, ’cause I knew they both had a lot of time. They did a lot of- Yeah … time in Missouri. Yeah. Yeah, they did. So did you- But they were kingpins. Their names are really well-known, feared names on the East Side in Kansas City.

Oh, yeah. Really feared names. Absolutely. Did you ever go around Vic Fontana’s place when he opened up Fanny’s? Oh, yeah. I went in and out of several. He had several different places. He had Fanny’s. [00:54:00] He had one down on the Southwest Trafficway a little bit after your time, I think oh, God, I forgot the name of it.

But yeah, the, all the mob guys went into his joints. He was mob friendly. Yeah. I was really s- I met him when he had when he had the one up on Main next to Butch’s, next to Mother’s. Oh, yeah. Yeah. He had that place yeah what was, Walter Midy. Must have been Walter Midy’s. Walter Midy.

Yeah, that’s where I met Vic. And then I actually plumbed that Fanny’s when he opened up Fanny’s. Oh, did you? Yeah. I plum- me and Saladino plumbed that Fanny’s. So- Yeah, it was, it’s a kind of a upscale place. They had a special VIP section and- Oh, yeah … everybody was anybody who went to Fanny’s at one time.

My cocaine partner was really in there a lot and Kenny supplied a lot of the cocaine to them people in Fanny’s. So I was supplying a guy that’s passed now. He’s actually the only guy in my book. We made a little movie of my life in 1993, and Tony was the only guy… There was 178 actors in the movie, [00:55:00] and Tony’s the only one that actually played his own part, and Tony just died a few months ago.

But Tony Marino, and he’s the one that knew, he’s the one that had that record shop next to the whorehouse. Oh, yeah. Over there in Englewood. The kingpins. Tony Marino. Yeah. Yeah. And Tony supplied Amigo’s down in the West Side. Over, you know where Amigo’s was over there? Yeah. And I, I gave Tony all the cocaine, and he gave all the cocaine to all those guys over there. Yeah. Sort those out there. Yeah. Interesting stuff. So- So what are you doing today? You- well- … selling this book, The Ultimate Pardon, guys, and I’ll have a link to the book if you want to buy the book in my show notes Yeah, it’s just billcorm.com is how you find it Yeah Bill Cor- Billcorm.com Okay.

You got a website, okay. Yeah, billcorm.com. Yeah. But I put it in prisons free. We put 110,000 of them in all 50 states and over 3,000 prisons and jails. Yeah. And then I wrote two other books during COVID ’cause they wouldn’t let me into prison during COVID, Gary. And I was like- Oh, man. Yeah … am I gonna have to go, am I gonna have to go [00:56:00] commit a crime to go to prison?

I wanna go to, I wanna go to prison, because I’ve been going in- You’re saving souls, man. Yeah, I’ve been going in since ’86, and now it’s 2020 and they won’t let me in. And I’m like, this is not right. We made two other books. One’s called Diamonds for the Rough, and the other one’s called Nuggets of Gold by 12 Ex-Cons.

It’s like a little daily devotional. Oh, good. Little short, 112 page book. Little short book. Yeah. Interesting. But yeah, so that’s what I’m doing. And I’m, Right now we’re also, all inmates now, I don’t know if you knew this, but all inmates have tablets, electronic tablets. I didn’t know that.

Oh, yeah. A- all two million inmates have a tablet. Really? Wow. And they can email their families, or families can email them, send them pictures. I don’t know how it works. Don’t ask me how it works. Don’t ask me how electricity works. I just know if you- Yeah … flip a switch, the lights come on. But these tablets, they can’t get on the internet.

They can’t Google and get on pornography or nothing like that. Yeah. But they’re able to communicate with their families through this tablet. There’s apps on those tablets, [00:57:00] just like your phone has a Google app. It has a weather app. There’s an app called Edovo, E-D-O-V-O, and Edovo right now is on 1,200,000 tablets, and by the end of the year they think they’ll be on all two million.

We’re putting our content on those tablets. Oh, okay. So everything on YouTube, on Instagram, everything I put on the internet, ’cause I don’t put anything on there except about God. I don’t put any politic stuff on. Yeah. I want to sometimes- … ’cause I’d like to, I’d like to rebut people, but I don’t…

I just am not gonna do that. I’m not gonna get involved in those arguments. Yeah. I go in prisons and an inmate wants to argue with me about religion, ’cause there’s 50 religions in there, I could name them- Yeah. Oh, yeah … but I’m not going to. A lot of different religions, and they wanna argue.

And I go I’ll argue with you, but before we start, can I tell you one thing? A man with an experience is not at the mercy of a man with an argument. And see, I had an experience April 15th, 1983.” Yeah. [00:58:00] And they wanna argue about different things and “You’re gonna get back on drugs.

You’re gonna get…” I said, “Let me tell you the difference between abstinence and deliverance. Abstinence is saying, I haven’t had a drink in 12 years, 4 months, 3 days, 7 hours and 12 minutes. That’s abstinence.” Deliverance is saying I don’t drink anymore. I got set free April 15, 19… I haven’t done a drug. I haven’t done an illegal drug.

I’ve done drugs because I had back surgery, neck surgery, car wrecks. It… But I haven’t done an illegal drug since April 15th of ’83. I’ve not smoked a cigarette, and I was smoking three packs of non-filtered Camels a day. I’ve not had one drop of alcohol, and I’ve not kissed another woman, and I used to kiss a different woman every day when I’d leave Debbie for weeks at a time and come back and would be gone for weeks.

My kids would call or come over and say, “Where’s Dad?” And she’d say, “I haven’t seen your dad in weeks. I don’t know where your dad’s at.” And I’ve not kissed another woman since ’83. We’ve been married 46 years. I have had an experience with God- Yeah … that changed my life. [00:59:00] Yeah. Interesting. And so I’ll argue all you wanna argue, but you’re wasting your time because you’re not gonna change my mind.

So you got a YouTube channel. Probably just search for Bill Corum on that, but, Prison Power. Prison Power. Prison, Prison Power and- Prison Power Bill Corum. Okay. And- And Instagram, Bill Corum. And Instagram. Okay. I don’t know the, I don’t know the call letters or how you can get to- no, you can figure it out.

I… Yeah. Yeah. All you need to know is Bill Corum in prison. They’ll figure it out. Yeah. If you put Bill Corum in there, you’re gonna find all- yeah … kinds of stuff on Google and all that, they got a lot of content out there, which is- Yeah … that’s the name of the game, get that content out there.

That’s what we’re doing here- … getting content out there. Yeah. Gary, I’m 82 years old, and when I was 80 years old, I wanted, I’ve wanted to do something my whole life and never got to do it. And when I was… I’ve got a son that’s an attorney- … who’s been at, he’s been with the same firm for 30 years.

He’s never lost a trial or an arbitration in 30 years. I’ve got a son that’s an oncologist, one of the best cancer doctors in the country. And my two boys took me to do something on my 80th birthday [01:00:00] that I’ve wanted to do for long. I wanted to drive a tank. And they took- How do you drive a tank? They took…

I… Next time me and you have lunch, I’ll show you videos. I’ve, they, I got to drive five tanks. I got to shoot, I got to shoot 13 different machine guns, including the mini gun. Really? Including the mini gun. Oh my God. Yeah. That sounds wicked. It was up in- I’d seen that … it was up in Kasota, Minnesota. Yeah.

Yeah. When I was shooting that mini gun, I was praying, “Lord, don’t ever let a bad guy get ahold of one of these.” Oh my goodness. That thing is- I know … oh, goodness. I know. It’s amazing. Unbelievable. Yeah. So that was a pretty fun thing, and, … yeah, I’ve enjoyed it. So God’s good to me, man. All right.

Bill Corum, the ultimate pardon. Thanks so much for coming on the show, Bill. Thank you, Gary. It’s been a pleasure. God bless.