What happens when the pastor is the one who needs grace?

We talk a lot in the church about forgiveness. We preach grace. We proclaim second chances. We tell stories of redemption and resurrection. But what happens when someone really messes up? And what happens when that someone is the pastor?

On this episode of From the Heart of the City, I’m joined by the Rev. Lillian Daniel for a remarkably candid conversation about her new book, Defrocked: Good News from a Bad Pastor for a Better Church.

Lillian doesn’t tell a story in which she was simply misunderstood or falsely accused. She writes openly about crossing a pastoral boundary, the consequences that followed, being removed from ministry, and finding herself on the other side of the church’s disciplinary process.

But Defrocked is about much more than what happened. It’s about what comes next. What does genuine accountability look like without becoming dehumanizing? Can we take seriously the harm people cause while still believing they are more than the worst thing they’ve ever done? What does repentance actually require? Is restoration possible? What does genuine accountability look like? Most importantly: Do we actually believe the things we say about grace when grace becomes difficult?

One of the images that runs through Lillian’s book is the ditch in Jesus’ parable of the Good Samaritan. Sometimes we’re in the ditch because someone pushed us there. Sometimes life put us there. And sometimes we’re there because we jumped in with our own two feet. The question is whether anyone will stop to help.

Our conversation moves from Lillian’s own experience of failure and accountability to larger questions about clergy discipline, institutional processes, forgiveness, restoration, vocation, and the kind of church we might become if we stopped pretending that some people are beyond grace. There is something deeply hopeful in that.

Ultimately Defrocked isn’t simply a book about a ‘bad pastor.’ It’s a book about whether we can become a better church.

🎙️ From the Heart of the CityFaith. Justice. Community. Radical Hospitality.

What are young adults really asking of the Church?

This week on From the Heart of the City, I’m joined by the Rev’d Matthew Martin, Chaplain at Huron University, for a conversation about faith, learning, belonging — and what it means to accompany young adults at one of the most formative times in their lives.

We often hear that younger generations are walking away from religion. But does that mean they’ve stopped asking spiritual questions?

Or are they asking different questions — about identity, purpose, loneliness, justice, relationships, vocation, and what makes a life meaningful — and looking for answers in places the Church hasn’t always been willing to go?

Matt spends his ministry right in the middle of those questions.

We talk about what university chaplaincy actually looks like today; how a Christian priest ministers within a diverse and pluralistic community; the pressures facing today’s students; and why presence and listening can sometimes matter far more than having the right answer.

We also turn the question back on the Church.

Instead of continually asking, “Where are the young people?” perhaps we need to ask:

Where are we?

Are we present where people are actually living, questioning, struggling and searching? Are we listening before we speak? And are we creating communities where people know they belong before they have everything figured out?

It’s a conversation about university chaplaincy, but ultimately it’s about something much larger: how we accompany one another as we discover who we are, what we believe, and what kind of life is worth living.

From the Heart of the City — Episode 9Guest: The Rev’d Matthew MartinChaplain, Huron University

There are some conversations that stay with you long after the microphones are turned off. My conversation with Chris Moss is one of them.

As Executive Director of London Cares, Chris spends his days working alongside people experiencing homelessness and housing insecurity. Our conversation goes beyond headlines and political debates to explore the human stories behind them. We talk about Housing First, outreach, dignity, and what it means to build a community where everyone has a place to belong.

Whether you work in social services, volunteer in your community, attend church, or simply care about the future of our city, I think you’ll find this to be a thoughtful and challenging conversation.

I hope it encourages us all to look beyond assumptions and remember that every person we encounter has a story worth hearing.

Thanks for listening, and as always, I’d love to hear your thoughts after you’ve had a chance to watch or listen.

There are conversations that challenge what we think.

And then there are conversations that challenge where we begin.

This week’s episode of From the Heart of the City is one of those.

I sat down with Kevin Nye to talk about his book Hope for the Mission, and our conversation quickly moved beyond the familiar debates about homelessness, charity, and the role of the Church. Instead, Kevin invites us to ask a deeper question:

What if we’ve misunderstood the mission itself?

For generations, many churches have measured success by how many people they convert or how many moral boxes they can check. Kevin doesn’t dismiss the importance of faith—far from it—but he challenges us to consider whether we’ve sometimes placed conditions on compassion that Jesus never did.

We spent time talking about the Housing First movement, a model that begins not with programs or prerequisites, but with the conviction that every human being deserves a safe place to call home. It is a simple idea, yet one that forces us to examine our assumptions. Is housing a reward for getting life together, or is it the foundation that allows healing to begin?

Serving in the heart of downtown London, these aren’t theoretical questions for me. Every day at St. Paul’s Cathedral and through the ministry of Paul’s Place, we encounter people carrying stories of trauma, resilience, addiction, recovery, hope, and heartbreak. We have learned that listening often matters more than lecturing, and that relationships change lives more than transactions ever can.

One of the things I appreciated most about Kevin’s book is that it refuses to caricature either people experiencing homelessness or the Church itself. Instead, it calls Christians back to the ministry of Jesus—a ministry rooted in presence before persuasion, dignity before judgment, and love before labels.

That doesn’t mean the conversation is always comfortable.

In fact, it shouldn’t be.

If following Jesus never asks us to reconsider our assumptions, we may not be paying close enough attention.

Whether you work in social services, volunteer in your parish, lead a congregation, or simply care about the future of our communities, I think you’ll find this conversation thoughtful, challenging, and deeply hopeful.

I’d love to hear what resonates with you. What challenged you? What surprised you? Where do you see signs of hope in your own community?

Thank you, as always, for listening and for being part of this growing community around From the Heart of the City. These conversations are helping us imagine what faith can look like when it is lived in the places where people actually are.

Every morning I come to St. Paul’s Cathedral, I’m reminded that ministry happens at the intersection of so many realities. Some people come looking for a quiet place to pray. Others are searching for community. Many simply need somewhere safe to sit for a while. Throughout the week I meet newcomers beginning a new life in Canada, people experiencing homelessness, those struggling with loneliness, and others carrying burdens that aren’t always visible. The heart of the city has a way of reminding you that the world’s problems are never simply headlines. They have names, faces and stories. That’s one of the reasons I was looking forward to my conversation with theologian Grace Ji-Sun Kim.

Climate change is one of those subjects that can end a conversation before it even begins. The moment it’s mentioned, we tend to retreat into familiar camps. We assume we know where the other person stands, and before long we’re debating politics rather than listening to one another. Beneath all the noise are questions the Church cannot afford to ignore.

* What does it mean to confess that “the earth is the Lord’s, and all that is in it”?

* What responsibility do we bear for God’s creation?

* How do we love our neighbour when environmental degradation so often affects the poorest and most vulnerable first?

Those aren’t simply political questions. They’re theological ones.

This week on From the Heart of the City, I had the privilege of speaking with Grace about her remarkable new book, Earthbound: God at the Intersection of Climate and Justice. What I appreciated most was that Grace wasn’t inviting us into another political debate. She was inviting us into theological reflection.

Throughout our conversation we explored creation, baptism, justice, Indigenous wisdom, and what it means to see the earth not as something to be exploited but as a gift entrusted to our care.

She introduced me to two Korean concepts that have stayed with me long after we finished recording. The first is jeong—a deep, enduring love that binds people together and reminds us that our lives are profoundly interconnected. The second is han—the deep suffering that injustice leaves behind, not only in individuals but in communities and even in creation itself. I find myself returning to those ideas again and again.

Good theology doesn’t simply reassure us that we’re right. It invites us to see more clearly, to think more deeply, and sometimes to be challenged in ways that lead us closer to walking the Way of Jesus.

Perhaps we’ve sometimes spoken as though God’s concern is only for human souls, when the Scriptures paint a much bigger picture—a God who delights in all creation and calls us to be faithful stewards rather than careless consumers.

My hope is that this episode doesn’t simply leave you thinking differently about climate change. I hope it leaves you thinking more deeply about God. Because the way we understand God will always shape the way we live in the world.

If you’d like to meet Grace, consider signing up for an upcoming retreat, later this summer at the Crieff Hills Retreat Centre. You can Register HERE. n the meantime pick up Earthbound at your favourite book store.

Episode 5: Starting Over — Faith, Courage, and Finding Home

Every day at St. Paul’s Cathedral I have the privilege of meeting people who have come to Canada carrying extraordinary gifts, remarkable resilience, and stories that too often go unheard.

Many have arrived full of hope, only to discover that beginning a new life is far more difficult than they imagined. Finding housing, meaningful employment, and community can be overwhelming. Credentials are questioned. Promises sometimes fall short. Loneliness can be profound.

Yet amid those challenges, I also witness extraordinary courage.

In Episode 5 of From the Heart of the City, I sit down with Obiageli Oraghalum, who moved to Canada from Nigeria in 2023. Obiageli shares her journey of leaving home, adapting to a new country, pursuing theological education, and discovering what it means to build a life—and a community—from the ground up.

Our conversation explores far more than immigration. We talk about faith, belonging, resilience, worship, and the gifts that newcomers bring to our churches and communities. We also speak honestly about some of the barriers many immigrants face and why genuine hospitality is about much more than simply saying, “Welcome.”

One of the great blessings at St. Paul’s Cathedral has been the growth of our African Fellowship. Once each month, the cathedral is filled with vibrant music, joyful dancing, passionate prayer, and delicious food as Anglicans from across the African continent gather for worship. It is a beautiful reminder that Anglicanism is not expressed in only one way. Around the world, it takes on the language, music, and culture of the people who worship Christ. Nigeria alone is home to millions of Anglicans, and the richness of that tradition is becoming an increasingly important part of our own life together.

I hope this conversation encourages us to listen more deeply to the stories of those who have come to Canada seeking a better life. Behind every newcomer is a story of courage, sacrifice, loss, and hope.

Thank you for listening, sharing these conversations, and helping us build a community where every voice matters.

Grace and peace,Kevin

What if reality is more than what we can see?

In this episode of From the Heart of the City, I sit down with author, pastor, and theologian Brian Zahnd to discuss his latest book, Unseen Existences.

Over the course of our conversation, we explore some of the book’s most compelling themes: wonder, mystery, certainty, grief, creation, sacrament, and what it means to participate in the life of God. Brian reflects on his own spiritual pilgrimage, the dangers of “settled certitude,” the gift of theological curiosity, and why mature faith often requires us to remain pilgrims rather than presume we have arrived.

We discuss the role of wonder in Christian discipleship, the tears of Jesus, the challenge of holding beauty and suffering together, and the invitation to see the world not as a collection of objects but as a creation saturated with divine love.

More than a discussion about a book, this is a conversation about learning to see again—to recover a sense of awe in a world that often encourages cynicism, certainty, and reductionism.

If you’ve ever wrestled with questions of faith, mystery, suffering, or spiritual growth, I think you’ll find this conversation both challenging and deeply encouraging.

I’d love to hear what resonates with you.

Faith. Justice. Hope. Radical Hospitality.

Listen now to my conversation with Brian Zahnd on From the Heart of the City.

A Place at the Table: A Conversation with Nistha Chakraborty

What does compassion look like in a city facing rising homelessness, food insecurity, and an ongoing overdose crisis?

In the latest episode of From the Heart of the City, I sit down with Nistha Chakraborty, Program Manager of Paul’s Place, one of London’s longest-serving outreach ministries. Every week, hundreds of people walk through the doors of Paul’s Place seeking food, support, community, and dignity. Nistha is among those helping to ensure that each person who comes through those doors is treated not as a problem to be solved, but as a neighbour worthy of respect and care.

Our conversation explores the realities facing some of the most vulnerable members of our community, the challenges and rewards of this work, and the ways in which hope continues to emerge even in difficult circumstances. We discuss poverty, homelessness, radical hospitality, and the kind of city we are called to build together.

Whether you are involved in community outreach, concerned about the future of our city, or simply looking for stories of resilience and hope, I think you’ll find this conversation both enlightening and inspiring.

I hope you’ll listen, share, and join the conversation.

Episode 1: Sabbath, Salmon, and the Gift of Delight

What does Sabbath look like in a world that never seems to stop?

In the inaugural episode of From the Heart of the City, Kevin George reflects on a recent fishing trip on Lake Huron and the unexpected lessons it offered about friendship, healing, gratitude, and the spiritual practice of delight.

After a difficult year recovering from a serious leg and ankle injury, Kevin shares how a simple gift from friends Jack Monk and Barney became much more than a day on the water. It became a reminder that healing is not only physical, and that some of God’s greatest gifts arrive through the kindness and attentiveness of others.

Drawing on insights from John Mark Comer’s The Ruthless Elimination of Hurry, Kevin explores the biblical meaning of Sabbath—not simply as stopping, but as delighting in God and God’s creation. Along the way, he reflects on friendship, radical hospitality, the pressures of modern life, and Jesus’ own remarkably unhurried way of moving through the world.

Whether you’re carrying a heavy burden, recovering from a difficult season, or simply longing to slow down, this episode offers an invitation to pause, breathe, and rediscover the gift of delight.

In This Episode

The launch of From the Heart of the City

Looking back on The Vicars’ Crossing

Recovery after a serious leg and ankle injury

A fishing trip on Lake Huron

The gift of friendship and encouragement

John Mark Comer’s understanding of Sabbath

Why delight is a spiritual discipline

Radical hospitality in everyday life

Learning to pay attention to beauty and grace

Memorable Quote

“Perhaps holiness is not found only in what we accomplish. Perhaps holiness is also found in what we pay attention to.”

Resources Mentioned

The Ruthless Elimination of Hurry — John Mark Comer

Connect

From the Heart of the City is hosted by Kevin George, Dean of St. Paul’s Cathedral in downtown London, Ontario.

Faith. Justice. Hope. Radical Hospitality.

Subscribe on Substack and follow for future episodes exploring the intersection of faith, public life, community, and the stories that emerge from the heart of the city.

This show is dedicated to Jack Monk and Bjarne Andersen in thanksgiving for their kindness and love.