@jordantpine returns to discuss Mueller, Trump, and Russia. It’s a meandering, messy, tense conversation with rampant disagreement. At least the chat answers the question of “What are *they* thinking?” Each side sees the investigation as obvious, but in opposite ways. If you want to be spared the messiness, the final 5 minutes of the podcast contain a summation of the whole thing.

Surya talks to old friend Jordan (@jordantpine) to see if they can civilly discuss Donald Trump, 2 years into his presidency. Surya was on Trump’s TV show The Apprentice in 2006 and was the Democratic nominee for Congress in 2010 from Ohio’s 2nd District. Jordan is a former solder, journalist, and current direct marketing consultant who has historically been a conservative and now identifies as a libertarian. They discuss Twitter, if Trump is actually not as bad as liberals feared, and where we are as a country.