In my candid and powerful conversation with Johnathan and April Perkins of the black& podcast, we discuss the key understanding that all White people benefit from racism and are responsible for dismantling white supremacy. We also explore their Fundamental Truths About Racism, close interracial relationships as a key motivator for anti-racism, and how White folks in the US must dismantle oppression of black and indigenous people in distinct yet parallel ways. We also chat about what brings Johnathan and April joy, and laugh about the challenge of having a podcast that includes an ampersand.