Geeking Out with Adriana Villela

About our guest:

Rynn Mancuso (they/them) is the developer community manager at Honeycomb.io, a contributor to OpenTelemetry, and a CNCF Ambassador. They led developer communities at Honeycomb, New Relic, Tidelift, Mozilla and Wikimedia. They're also an editor of Contributor Covenant 3 with the Organization for Ethical Source.

Find our guest on:

• Twitter (X)
• LinkedIn
• Mastodon

Find us on:

• All of our social channels are on bento.me/geekingout
• All of Adriana's social channels are on bento.me/adrianamvillela

Show notes:

• Web Content Accessibility Guidelines (WCAG)
• ARIA (web accessibility)
• CNCF Ambassador Program
• CNCF Deaf and Hard of Hearing Working Group
• Adaptive Climbing
• CNCF AI Working Group
• Contributor Covenant
• Organization for Ethical Source
• OpenTelemetry Has Gone Multi-Lingual!

Transcript:

ADRIANA: Hey, fellow geeks, welcome to Geeking Out, the podcast about all geeky aspects of software delivery, DevOps, Observability, reliability, and everything in between. I'm your host Adriana Villela, coming to you from Toronto, Canada. And geeking out with me today, I have Rynn Mancuso. Welcome, Rynn.

RYNN: Hi, glad to be here.

ADRIANA: Super excited to have you. And where are you calling from today?

RYNN: Oakland, California.

ADRIANA: Awesome. Okay, well, we shall start off first things first with our lightning round questions. Are you ready?

RYNN: Yes.

ADRIANA: All right, let's do this. First question, are you a lefty or a righty?

RYNN: Righty.

ADRIANA: Do you prefer iPhone or Android?

RYNN: Android.

ADRIANA: Do you prefer Mac, Linux, or Windows?

RYNN: Mac.

ADRIANA: What's your favorite programming language?

RYNN: JavaScript.

ADRIANA: All right, do you prefer dev or ops?

RYNN: Ops.

ADRIANA: Do you prefer JSON or YAML?

RYNN: You know, I kind of hate them both, but my friend has cats named JSON and YAML. And so I'm going to say JSON is a shadow of a black cat who is very attractive, but YAML is extremely sweet. So I'm going to say YAML wins the day.

ADRIANA: All right, love it. Next question. Spaces or tabs?

RYNN: Spaces.

ADRIANA: And then do you prefer to consume content through video or text?

RYNN: Text.

ADRIANA: And finally, what is your superpower?

RYNN: Building relationships.

ADRIANA: Awesome. Congratulations for being the fastest responder to the lightning round questions. Well, I wanted to. One thing that I wanted to talk about today is accessibility in tech and the importance of accessibility in tech, because oftentimes it ends up coming as an afterthought, if that. So, I guess, first things first, do you have any, like what, what are your thoughts around the accessibility landscape in tech? What do you see that's been super awesomely done? And what would you see that's been very poorly done?

RYNN: Yeah, it's an interesting time in terms of accessibility in tech, because when many of us, and I'm included in this group of people, first built the current standards, the WCAG, other standards for web accessibility, the web was a much simpler place than it was today. And we, you know, we emphasize the importance of writing semantic HTML, of making every element needed for accessibility, from alt text to ARIA, elements that allow you to run more advanced controls, all just part of good semantic HTML. And if you're speaking semantic HTML, the thinking went, your content is going to be very easily made accessible. Right now, the web in general is burdened with many, many components that are coming from frameworks that are coming from a range of different tools. Often your front end has a very complicated tool chain supporting it. Lots of places, plugins, lots of things that you're sucking from other places, perhaps ads, if you're serving content. All of this is more complicated for screen readers to navigate because there's lots of components. It's more complicated for people with ADHD and other cognitive challenges because there's more things to distract them.

And it's more complicated for folks who might have mobility disabilities and not use standard pointer systems. And so there's some really neat innovation coming out to address framework accessibility. And folks are building accessible frameworks, but it's still a much bigger bridge for us to cross than we anticipated with the original. And also, I think if you extend that from the front end into developer tooling, the tools that we're looking at are more and more complicated. They're more and more visual, because it turns out that things that involve sorting and classifying and pattern recognition in text AI can do very well. But humans are very good at spotting visual anomalies. That would take AI a long time because they need to know the algorithm for the anomaly. And so using developer tools and using so many of them is really, I think, taking accessibility in a lot of new directions because it's tricky to provide an equivalent user experience for everybody.

ADRIANA: Have you seen like, are you. I know that it's been like slow moving, but are you happy with the direction in which things are going?

RYNN: I'm definitely seeing things getting better. I'm seeing more concern and awareness for accessibility within tech. There's really a movement that I think really got accelerated by the pandemic and people getting to sort of see how they were in different situations than what they were used to, of folks discovering that they experienced some form of neurodivergence, particularly like lots of developers, lots of ops people are realizing that part of what made them good at their job was some form of neurodivergence, which can be very different. When you're trapped inside the house, the impact that that can have on you can be very different. And so I'm seeing folks come out as having these identities and have more sympathy, more interest in providing accessible experiences. At the same time, I think lots of folks still don't know how to do it, and we could be doing a better job of teaching and I think a better job of incentivizing folks to make accessibility something that's built in from the start and expected as table stakes, rather than something you're retrofitting for, because retrofitting almost always results in inferior user experience because you just didn't design it. With this set of users in mind, yeah, yeah.

ADRIANA: It's basically you're saying, let's shift left on accessibility, because otherwise you're doing like a square peg into a round hole, which never ends well.

RYNN: Right. And the reality is that when you build things for accessibility, you are generally making them better for everyone. The Google crawlers that do SEO, for example, are an example of a headless browser, similar to a screen reader, that has a sort of, that might have a sort of different head than a standard browser or, you know, a text only browser. It renders content quite differently. And so what you do to improve accessibility for these alternative user agents is also improving accessibility for SEO. It, another part of accessibility, frankly, is good user experience, particularly when you get to accessibility for folks with cognitive challenges, because the reality is that many, some people have formal diagnosed ADHD and it's hard to focus, and different elements on the screen will make it more likely that their focus gets hijacked. But we all have things periodically that challenge our ability to stay focused. Whether we, we're under a lot of stress, whether we're checking into our systems because we've gotten a page while we were on the train and we're trying to do it from our mobile phone, whether, again, we've gotten a page and we're at a loud bar.

And so when you improve the experience to make logical elements, draw people's focus, to make it easier to find different elements in the user interface for users with cognitive disabilities, you're actually improving it for everyone.

ADRIANA: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And, you know, it's interesting. I remember a couple years ago when I was still working at Tucows, and I remember publishing some, some blog posts on their blog, and I was talking to the person who was responsible for managing the blog, and they're like, oh, make sure you have alt text for all your images. And I'm like, oh, that, you know, like, that's something that, you know, folks take for granted, right? Like, I can see the image, why do I need the alt text? And ever since then, like, he, they got me in the habit of always, whenever I write my blog posts now and include images, I always make sure I not only have the caption, but I also have the alt text. So it's gotten me into that new habit, which I think is very cool.

RYNN: That's lovely.

ADRIANA: And then the other thing that I was thinking of as well is I remember when Hachyderm became a thing on Mastodon and folks were talking about, when you write out hashtags, make sure that you use camel case because it's easier. I think it's something to do with. It has some sort of accessibility consideration. I can't remember exactly what it is, but because of that, I also always try to keep that in mind when writing out hashtags, which is kind of annoying. It's annoying in the sense where I'm trying to do camel case, and then some platforms have the hashtag autocomplete, and then they'll autocomplete it with all lowercase. I'm like, damn it, you're ruining my perfecty...you're ruining my camel case work. I put so much effort into doing this, and then you've, like, obliterated it. But it's like, just these little things, even, that we can do to just help make things a little bit more accessible for folks.

RYNN: Right. Yeah. The accessibility concern there is that a screen reader will try to pronounce it all as one word if you have lowercase. But if it's camel case, then it understands to stop between words.

ADRIANA: Ah, gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And then the other aspect that I always think of, too, is like, from the podcasting standpoint, I always make sure that I have, like, captions included with my podcast. And so I think most of the production in my podcast actually comes from editing the captions and providing a transcript, because I have an AI tool that generates the captions, and it does a half decent job of it. But there are things that it misses. So me having to go through all of the entire transcript of each show and making sure that it's conveying the correct information so that if folks are using closed captioning on YouTube or if they want to just read the transcript from the show notes, they have that opportunity, which, you know, again, it's not necessarily things that I would have thought of in the past, but I'm grateful to folks who have pointed me in that direction.

RYNN: Right.

ADRIANA: And then the other thing that I wanted to mention, too, is, you know, I always think about accessibility, like, you know, in terms of you and I got to spend some time together at the climbing gym at a couple of conferences, and you've opened my eyes to, like, the world of paraclimbing, which I think is really, really cool. I mean, paraclimbers are like next level awesomeness. Would you mind talking a little bit about paraclimbing and even, like, how you got into climbing?

RYNN: Sure. So I got into adaptive climbing shortly after the pandemic. I honestly, there was a group in my town, I saw them advertise on the a disability LISTSERV. I thought immediately, oh, this is something super exciting to me. I always thought of climbing as an extreme sport that sort of only people in really good shape could do. I'd never thought, oh, yeah, I, as a disabled person, could be a climber. It was definitely like, you know, there are certain stereotypes of climbing, especially from the outside, that you're like, I can't do this. But I was super excited to go try it.

And so I went down and it just became something I was really excited about, started to do, you know, a couple times a week. Paraclimbing, I think, is pretty unique. Obviously, there's lots of people with lots of different types of disabilities who climb, but many of the folks in paraclimbing, we have disabilities that actually impact our mobility, our ability to walk. Some folks might be missing part of a limb. We have consciously chosen a sport that we are bad at according to any conventional standard, like, by definition, right. This is a group of people who have, you know, failed walking so badly that we use devices to walk for us, like wheelchairs or crutches, and yet, like walking up a hundred feet or thousands of feet in the case of outdoor climbing, wall. Sounds like a great idea. Yeah.

So it's a very, it's a sport full of people who are trying really hard. It's a very tight knit community. Climbing in general can be very tight knit because your safety is always on the line with the person you are climbing with. But paraclimbing, I think especially so because people are having to actively figure out how to adapt climbing to make it work for them. There's no sort of bible for how you climb as an adaptive climber. It's so specific to your body. There are things that work for lots of people, but it's so personal. And so people are figuring it out together how to do it.

What's interesting, and I think at the end of the day, paraclimbing and disabled climbers challenge the idea that we have that climbing should be about getting to the top as fast as possible, that it should be fundamentally goal oriented. Lots of climbers with mobility disabilities particularly, I see folks climb very slowly because they have to move slowly. And it's, I think, adding something unique to climbing as a sport to start thinking about it. Less is about getting to the top, doing things as fast as possible, and more is about the experience of climbing, about building strength, about solving problems, and, you know, like the way we talk about climbing and especially competitive climbing. It doesn't emphasize that. It emphasizes getting to the top of the mountain. It emphasizes how fast can you speed climb, and paracliming is the opposite of that, and I think has a lot to teach the climbing community.

ADRIANA: Yeah, it's so true for me as a climber, especially because my family climbs. And so I'm constantly comparing myself to my husband and my daughter. And it's taken me a long time personally to just get over, like, oh, they're, you know, they're getting some bouldering problem that I can't. Getting over that and just focusing on, like, am I pushing myself? Am I improving as a climber? So it's not like the competition against others, it's the competition against self. What are you doing to challenge your mental limits, your physical limits within what you're comfortable doing? Because I think that's really, at the end of the day, is climbing is all about what you're, what you're comfortable doing and how far you're willing to push yourself to do it, really?

RYNN: Exactly. Exactly. It's about personally pushing yourself. And I think comparison is definitely the thief of joy within climbing, because everyone, not just disabled people, has a unique body. There are lots of things about your body that go into which moves are easy for you and which moves are hard for you. For example, I'm super tall, so any kind of sit start where you have to start very close to the ground is super painful for me. I hate it. I can barely get in those positions. Adriana is, you know, you're super short, and so big reachy moves are difficult for you.

ADRIANA: They are, yeah, they're, they're the crux for me. They. They make me angry, and in probably the same way that the sit starts make you angry.

RYNN: Right, right. But I have big, long arms, so I can often just reach up for that kind of hold.

ADRIANA: Yeah, totally, totally.

RYNN: Yeah.

ADRIANA: And I think that's. That's the thing. As you said, it's like knowing, like, working...what...working with your body and understanding how it works. And, and that's. That's one thing that I've personally, on my climbing journey, I've had to realize. Cause, like, my daughter is similar. Similar size. She's more slender than me, she's a little bit taller, but similar size.

So I'm like, oh, she does whatever move. I'm like, then this is the way that I'm gonna do it. And then I realize, oh, I don't have maybe the same level of flexibility or, like, I just don't have the courage to do as risky a move as she's doing. And so now I have to, like, rethink my strategy. Like, how can I do this within the confines of what I'm comfortable doing, knowing how my body's gonna function?

RYNN: Right, right. She's 20 years younger than you, and it's much less of a big deal for her if she gets injured because younger people bounce back quicker.

ADRIANA: Exactly, exactly. But I mean, generally, just like, you know, that is what I love about the climbing community, though, in general, is, like, it is a very, like, welcoming community, and folks are always cheering each other on. Even, like, going to new climbing gyms in different cities, there's, you can, like, hang out with a random group of people that you'll probably never see again for a session and just climb together and cheer each other on. And I think that's, you know, we need more welcoming moments like these. And then the fact that, like, it's nice to see, like, you know, after you and I met, like, I noticed, like, in the last year, my. My local gym has been doing some adaptive climbing. And, you know, and then I thought back to, like, you know, when. When we were climbing a couple of times in. At, like, KubeCon, Detroit, and Open Source Summit last year, and. And, you know, and you kind of opened my eyes to adaptive climbing. I'm like, oh, this is so nice that, like, my local gym is, like, really embracing adaptive climbing and, like, really bringing that, like, making it more inclusive for folks, because I think I feel like that is, like, the. The essence of. Of the climbing community and also, like, just the range, as you said, of, like, different types of adaptive climbing. Like, you and I were talking at one point where you were, you told me about, like, climbers who are blind and they have somebody who calls out, holds for them as they climb. Like, I would have never in a million years guessed that that is something that was possible. And so, like, it kind of warms my heart that it really is, like, a sport that's, like, really open for everybody.

RYNN: Exactly. And, man, like, as a mobility impaired climber, comparing yourself to a blind climber is definitely the theme of joy. They're so strong! Everything works.

ADRIANA: Absolutely. Well, I did want to switch gears for a sec and also talk about another thing, which is, like, you're a CNCF Ambassador and you just got renewed for another couple of years, so congrats. Yay.

RYNN: Excited to be an Ambassador with you.

ADRIANA: Yeah, definitely. And I was wondering if you could tell folks about your own CNCF Ambassadorship journey, like, what got you to apply in the first place and what got you to continue doing the work, like, make you want to continue being an Ambassador.

RYNN: Sure. So I became a Cloud Native Computing Foundation Ambassador because I was already doing a lot of community building work within OpenTelemetry. And the Ambassador program has lots of support for people who organize meetups. And, you know, I was super excited to get that support to be sort of better connected to CNCF. I also, at the time Adriana and I started, there weren't really many Ambassadors who had a focus outside Kubernetes. So it was an opportunity to bring more awareness of our project, OpenTelemetry, which is the second fastest growing and, I think, second largest project within the Cloud Native Computing foundation to the broader Cloud Native Computing Foundation community to really attempt to make it as ubiquitous as Kubernetes. I've stayed in the program and continued to meet the requirements, less because of that, because much of that has happened over the past couple years that Adriana and I have been working on the project and more because the people in the Ambassador program are really, truly wonderful. And I love getting the opportunity to connect with people who are passionate about cloud native from all over the world that I get in the Ambassador program.

ADRIANA: And I have to say, like, I think when we were first, like, newly minted Ambassadors last year in Amsterdam, there was, like, we attended our first CNCF Ambassador breakfast. And I, you know, hats off to you. Like, you are such a social butterfly. And I sometimes, like, I can be, like, sometimes in crowds, I can be very, like, I can shut down because of the introvert in me. And it was thanks to you that, you know, like, you went out and started introducing yourself and, like, to. To various folks and, and allowed me to tag along for the ride, and that way got to meet some, like, new Ambassadors that I, I probably would have been the person standing off in the corner because I'm like, oh, my God, this is too overwhelming for me.

So, anyway, I want to call that out. Like, hats off to you. You really are like a lovely community builder. You do such a great job of, of connecting people. So I can totally vouch for your superpower on that. And what I know that obviously, we're involved together in the OTel End User SIG. Are there other areas in CNCF that you're involved in that you're super passionate about?

RYNN: Definitely my biggest investment in CNCF is the OTel End User SIG. However, I've been involved in the Deaf and Hard of Hearing working group as an act of solidarity with other folks with disabilities. I spoke on a panel at KubeCon EU with a lot of folks from that community, and they have really I think some of the hardest time, you know, because my disability, when I sit down at my desk, it doesn't impact me all that much. Sure, I have ADHD, but so do half of the developers, but my mobility disability doesn't really have any impact. And in fact, once we started interviewing remotely, it was great because I didn't even have to disclose that I had a disability until after I was hired. And for the deaf and hard of hearing folks, it's very challenging because so much of the information about new technologies you get at conferences, you get by sort of watching videos and webinars. It's tough just to follow things in text. And people don't always make things captioned.

They don't always make things accessible. And in the case of some deaf people, in fact, their first language is sign language. Sign languages aren't related word by word to their parent, to any spoken language. They. For example, American Sign Language is called American Sign Language because it shares many of the cultural assumptions of American English. What it does not share is the grammatical assumptions and the ways of saying things, because there is a language called signing exact English, and that is not so much a language as spelling out written English letter by letter. That is extremely slow. It's not a good way to communicate.

So, for example, you may have three gestures to communicate an entire sentence in sign language because the grammar is set up to be economical in terms of movement. It uses facial expressions, etcetera. And so if folks' first language is written English, if folks first language is sign language, then when they learn written English, that is a second language. And they also don't have the advantage that the rest of us have of learning how to both write and speak at the same time and being able to move back and forth between the two modalities. It is strictly a visual modality. And so it can be more challenging for folks to get involved in the community, both because everyone is speaking English out loud and because written English is not the exact analog of their signed language. There's no written version of the sign language. So I have a lot of respect for folks in this community, and there's just amazing people becoming engineers with all sorts of situations, everything from a little bit hard of hearing to, you know, folks who are completely deaf and whose first language is sign language. And I've learned so much from the vibrancy and the energy that these folks bring to this very hard problem, because literally, like, the second they go on a phone interview, their disability is exposed.

ADRIANA: Right, right.

RYNN: That takes a lot. Besides that, I'm involved in the CNCF AI working group. I have mostly been involved in sort of community building exercises for them, like managing presences at events, doing user surveys. They're working on white papers on how AI is being used in cloud native, which is super exciting to sort of see this space grow and change. And I'm really stoked that that's happening outside the Cloud Native Computing Foundation. I work on contributor Covenant 3. I built an enforcement system and enforcement manual for contributor Covenant 2, and that's led to now I'm one of the lead editors on 3, which we have started on this year. We're at the 10th anniversary of this important code of conduct that was one of the first codes of conduct available for open source projects.

The CNCF uses a modified version of the contributor code of conduct across all of their projects. So do lots of other major projects. I believe Google's open source team used it, at least for a while. They may, I think, have transitioned to their own thing, Microsoft, lots of big companies, lots of big foundations that really took it on and made it their own. And I'm excited to be revisiting this ten years after the first code of conduct, because when we thought of the first one, we were a bunch of Americans who were frankly pissed off about things like sexual harassment at conferences. And now much of that has settled down. Conference culture has changed for the better, so that there's almost an expectation that there's a code of conduct. You don't see things like booth babes on the show floor much anymore.

The position that women and non binary people have and the relationship to sexuality has really changed in the industry. And now what we are taking on is how do we internationalize this? How do we genuinely consider developers from all over the world, how do we consider different concepts of justice, different concepts of what is right, and still continue to advocate for inclusion in a wide range of cultural contexts? And how do we make this code of conduct better for the wide range of people, things people are doing these days? Because when we designed it initially, we thought, well, there will be conferences and there will be contributing pull requests to open source conference, to open source things. And now it's way more than that. We're doing way more in tech, and it's super exciting to think about all these places in which a code of conduct can be used. And it's also super exciting to be able to evolve away from strictly sort of punitive measures like, no, don't harass people, because some of that groundwork has been taken care of and it's more expected that you're not going to do those things. Now we can start talking about desired behaviors and ways to contribute to a community positively, ways to maintain the tone of a community. And so I'm really excited about the cc three work this year.

ADRIANA: That's so cool. And, you know, it's interesting, too, because, like, these are the types of things that I think most of us just take for granted. Right? There is a code of conduct, but there is a group of humans behind that code of conduct that have put a lot of time and effort in crafting that out to make sure that, you know, you're covering all the bases as much as possible. And it's cool to bring awareness to that because, like I said, it's absolutely something that we take for granted in this area.

RYNN: Right. And what I would say is people who write codes of conduct get lots of hate mail. There is a group of folks who is highly invested in being able to behave badly.

ADRIANA: Oh, wow.

RYNN: Of course, they will claim that they really support free speech or that they think everyone is equal and they want to get past this identity nonsense when you have a thing that says, no, we shall not discriminate on the basis of ability, race, national origin, and they will hide behind those kinds of arguments, especially on the Internet. But the reality is they are invested in being able to continue behaving the way that they want to anyone, and not invested in being able to show up in a community and participate in a way that's inclusive and respectful. And so as a code of conduct author, we get lots of hate mail. Many of us have, like, elaborate personal security systems that make us hard to track down because folks have received threats to their home, etcetera. So it's really important for you to go to the authors of your favorite code of conduct and, you know, make the effort to put pull request to show that you're using that code of conduct. Write them a letter saying that you actually appreciate their work because they don't get those letters.

ADRIANA: Wow. That is. I had no idea it was, like, so, so brutal out there for code of conduct authors. And I appreciate you bringing this to light because I honestly, I would have never guessed that would be so, like, wow, just an awful experience.

RYNN: Yeah. Yeah. There's always a pool of people who are like, the status quo is fine because it is serving me, and I am highly invested in keeping that the same instead of being like, you know, how can we change text so that everyone feels welcome? So there's more text. So we're all supported, and it's sad to see.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah. And so in spite of all this, like, what keeps you continuing to work on the code of conduct? Cause, I mean, I'm sure the hate mail can be scary at times.

RYNN: It can be scary at times. And, you know, I didn't work on CC one, which is when we received, really the worst of it, but some of my co editors did. And I'm aware of those stories. And I think what keeps me doing it is that I genuinely believe that making tech, and especially cloud native, in our case, a more opening and welcoming place, makes better technology. It makes better user interfaces. When we think about the needs of a wide range of users, from folks who need accessibility to folks who might not speak the language of the interface as a first language, to sort of thinking about internationalization, all of these things are better thought about by a diversity of people. And so I feel that code of conduct work, and I also was involved in rolling out the code of conduct system across all of Mozilla's projects. I didn't write their code of conduct.

It was one of the first codes of conduct that did have desired behaviors, but sort of evangelized it into all the communities, did workshops on it. I believe that codes of conduct have the power to help us heal some divides within the tech community and bring people together. And I feel like having a safe environment should be table stakes for everyone. And I want to work to make that happen.

ADRIANA: That's great. Yeah. Yeah. Everyone deserves to be in a place where they feel included and safe. And it's nice to see that, like, there is work going on in the community to help make that happen. Even just going back to the work that you said that you were doing with the deaf and hard of hearing group, even, like, I noticed in, I think, the last KubeCon that they actually had, like, someone who was basically, as the keynotes were happening, actually, I think as the talks were happening, they had someone in sign language. Like, basically, I don't know if that's the appropriate term, but translating into sign language as people spoke, which, very cool. And again, until you see that, you're like, oh, my God, I've been taking for granted this entire time that I can hear people speak, and some people, like, they can't.

RYNN: And something you don't see at KubeCon is that they have a system behind the scenes that is AI based, that takes in audio and text and puts out captions or audio in a person's native language, and lots of people are listening to it. You get to see the sign language interpreters, because at least right now, that still can't be AI'd. The translation is too different. The translation is too different. It's visual material, but that's a tiny element of all the internationalization that is going on in the Cloud Native Computing Foundation. And we're also seeing, you know, in the last year, so they've launched KubeCon China, which is actually getting folks from behind the wall. They've launched Kube Day India. India is one of the largest places that contributes to open source, and they contribute in ways that are quite different than the way we think about contribution in the west, because they go to code clubs, which are like meetups.

They'll go to code club on Friday. Like, you'll go to code club on Friday night, and you'll work through a contribution together. And you might not necessarily be, like, super skilled or all working on the same project, but your folks are learning together. But then from a code of conduct and a behavior standpoint that poses lots of challenges that we don't experience when we think about, oh, what's the code of conduct for people in the US who are sitting at home typing on their computer on GitHub, their experience is very different. And similarly, you know, China has lots of very specific rules about information going in and out of China. India, there is caste based oppression that can happen. For example, when I was at Mozilla to manage these code clubs, we ended up hiring a contractor in India who had a very good knowledge of, like, western feminism, had sort of been to school for women's studies and also of Indian culture, who could be our translator when issues came up, because we were like, this person is writing to us that people from this particular neighborhood can't feel welcome at this code club. And we care about this, and we don't understand the dynamics.

And then it's like, oh, well, these people are actually low caste, quote unquote. And this other caste, you know, they're trained from birth to hate these people. And, like, we needed an explainer.

ADRIANA: Wow. Wow, that's so wild. Yeah. These things that you just take for granted, you know, doing, working in western culture and even just going back to, like, the internationalization thing, I think I saw recently somewhere that, you know, I think the OpenTelemetry website, like opentelemetry.io. I think there they're doing. They're translating it into more languages. And I'm part of this group of Brazilians on CNCF Slack, and someone was asking around, oh, anyinterest in doing a translation into Brazilian Portuguese for opentelemetry.io. Because again, it's like if your working language is English, you totally take it for granted. But that is not the case for everybody.

And there are some very smart people out there whose first language is not English. They don't feel comfortable speaking it, and why should they? And so, like, let's make it more inclusive for them by making things available in their native language or for them to be able to contribute in their native language and feel comfortable. And that's another aspect that we so easily forget about.

RYNN: Right. And I should put in a plug that Contributor Covenant 2 and Contributor Covenant 3 are managed through the Organization for Ethical Source. And if you speak more than one language, particularly if you were very fluent in the culture of the countries that speak a non english language, we could really use you. First of all, we want to, we're trying to make sure that we have translations into as many languages as possible of CC 2. And CC 2 is sort of a direct translation from CC from, from the English. But what we would like to do with CC 3 is get folks in who have already translated CC 2 and thought some about, like, what that would mean inside their culture so that we can create translations of the code that take into mind that folks have different concepts of what justice is. Folks have different ideas about enforcement in different cultures. And we weren't able to keep that. We weren't able to, like, figure that out when we were writing CC 2 because the pressure was so great just to reduce the amount of harassment that folks were experiencing in tech. And now that we're working on CC 3, we have an opportunity to create that.

ADRIANA: So it's not just a matter of doing a direct translation, but also, like, capturing the cultural nuances. And it is. What it sounds like?

RYNN: Yeah, yeah. Probably the easiest path is to work on or review a direct translation of CC 2, and then you have a starting point for thinking about, okay, what's different in my culture that I would like reflected in a version of CC 3 that takes, that really is culturally sensitive, because that's an important part of localization and globalization efforts, is it's not just like the English words showing up in the other language. It's, does this make sense? And for our code of conduct, I think it's especially important that people are able to internalize and grasp the precepts of the code of conduct. So going back to the caste example in India, for example, we would include caste based discrimination directly. And folks in that culture are aware of what that is and how to impact that, that sort of thing. Yeah, just lots of things around cultures, ideas of justice are really different, and we want the code of conduct to be something that is so simple that people can internalize it within their own framework of justice and inclusion.

ADRIANA: Gotcha. Gotcha. Wow. I have learned so much today. This has been such a great conversation, and thank you for enlightening me on so many different areas. We are coming up on time, but before we go, was wondering if there's any either a hot take or a piece of advice that you'd like to leave folks off with.

RYNN: You know, people and people's individual stories are a really important part of technology. I think we underrate that. We think that it's all about the best tech, but the reality is it's about the human relationships. It's about how tech supports our ability to be human. And I think, you know, my advice is don't lose sight of that.

ADRIANA: Oh, that's so great. I really love that. What a, what a what? Very lovely parting words. Well, thank you so much, Rynn, for geeking out with me today. Y'all don't forget to subscribe and be sure to check our show notes for additional resources and to connect with us and our guests on social media. Until next time...

RYNN: Peace out and geek out.

ADRIANA: Geeking Out is hosted and produced by me, Adriana Villela. I also compose and perform the theme music on my trusty clarinet. Geeking Out is also produced by my daughter, Hannah Maxwell, who, incidentally, designed all of the cool graphics. Be sure to follow us on all the socials by going to bento.me/geekingout.

About our guest:

Rizèl Scarlett is a Staff Developer Advocate at TBD, Block's newest business unit. With a diverse background spanning GitHub, startups, and non-profit organizations, Rizèl has cultivated a passion for utilizing emerging technologies to champion equity within the tech industry. She moonlights as an Advisor at G{Code} House, an organization aimed at teaching women of color and non-binary people of color to code. Rizèl believes in leveraging vulnerability, honesty, and kindness as means to educate early-career developers.

Find our guest on:

• Twitter (X)
• LinkedIn
• Twitch
• Website

Find us on:

• All of our social channels are on bento.me/geekingout
• All of Adriana's social channels are on bento.me/adrianamvillela

Show notes:

• International Left Handers Day (August 13th)
• Kotlin (programming language)
• Resilient Coders (coding bootcamp)
• Angie Jones
• Brian Douglas
• G{Code} House (non-profit)
• TBD
• GitHub Universe
• Kansas City Developer Conference (KCDC)
• Verifiable Credential (W3C)
• Decentralized Web Node (DWN)

Additional notes:

• TBD on Twitch

Transcript:

ADRIANA: Hey, fellow geeks. Welcome to Geeking Out, the podcast about all geeky aspects of software delivery DevOps, Observability, reliability, and everything in between. I'm your host, Adriana Villela, coming to you from Toronto, Canada. And with me today, I have Rizelle Scarlett. Welcome, Rizel.

RIZEL: Hi. Thank you for having me. It's super fun already, even though the podcast has just started.

ADRIANA: Yay! I'm so excited to have you on. And where are you calling from today?

RIZEL: I'm calling from Boston, Massachusetts, right now.

ADRIANA: Awesome. So, fellow, fellow east coaster. As someone who lives in Boston, I gotta ask. So I just came back from a vacation trip to Stowe, Vermont. Have you ever been up that way? Because I have a bunch of family that. That goes up to Stowe, so I'm wondering if that's, like, a destination for Bostonians.

RIZEL: Interesting. I never really go to Vermont or Maine, but it's like a place I want to go. Like, it looks. When I see the pictures, it looks pretty. It's really weird. Like, sometimes when you live close to places, you don't go visit them, but you go to the far place.

ADRIANA: It is so true. Because it's like, it'll always be there. Whatever.

RIZEL: I take it for granted.

ADRIANA: It's so true. It's so true. Well, before we get started with the meaty bits, I always subject my guests to some icebreaker questions. So are you ready?

RIZEL: I'm ready. Let's go.

ADRIANA: Okay, first question. Are you a lefty or a righty?

RIZEL: I'm a righty. Like, all the way.

ADRIANA: All right, awesome. I do want to mention, even though this is coming out sometime in the fall, today is international lefty day.

RIZEL: Oh, wow. Shout out to all the lefties.

ADRIANA: I observe it because I'm a lefty.

RIZEL: I'm glad you get a day. I don't...Y'all need it. I get it.

ADRIANA: We get screwed over on various things, like scissors. So.

RIZEL: Yes. I was just saying that scissors are hard for y'all.

ADRIANA: I know. I just end up using, like, right hand people scissors, left handed. And it's a little awkward, but it's okay. All right, next question. Are you an iPhone or Android person?

RIZEL: I used to be a die hard Android person, and then, I don't know, like, once I started into tech, my job gave me a Mac, and then they gave me AirPods at one job, so I just slowly switched over to all things Apple. So now I have the iPhone.

ADRIANA: It's the gateway drug. It was my gateway drug, too. Like, when I got my first personal Mac, I was like, boom. That's it.

RIZEL: Right? Wait, wait...iMessage is all synced. Everything's just perfect. I was like, I can't go back to Android now. Sorry.

ADRIANA: I feel, ya. I had a BlackBerry before my iPhone, so I never knew Android other than helping my mom when my dad bought her an Android for a very brief period of time. And then I said, screw it, I'm getting you an iPhone. But she'd ask me for tech support on Android. I'm like...

RIZEL: What do I do? Yeah, I don't. When my mom asked me for help, I'm like, girl. She's like, but you're a computer person. I don't know.

ADRIANA: I don't want to touch it. Okay, next question. Do you prefer Mac, Linux, or Windows?

RIZEL: Oh, okay. When I was in, I used to be in IT support and I used to like Windows and Linux. I felt like they were easy to troubleshoot and all that. But then when I went to software engineering, I prefer Mac. I don't know, just, just very similar to what I told you about when they gave me a Mac. I got hooked.

ADRIANA: Yeah, I feel, ya. Yeah. I grew up on Windows. Windows 3.1. Back in the old days...

RIZEL: Oh yeah. I remember using Windows 95.

ADRIANA: Oh my God.

RIZEL: Screen savers.

ADRIANA: When that came out, I was like, mind blown. I'm like, what is this? As if Windows 3.1 could get better.

RIZEL: Oh my God.

ADRIANA: Yes. That dates me a lot. Um, okay, next question. Um, do you have a favorite programming language? And if so, what is it?

RIZEL: Oh, okay. I love JavaScript. I like SQL, and Kotlin is like my new love now. Like, SQL is like the first thing I learned, and JavaScript. And like Kotlin, I'm like, yo, why did no one tell me about this? It's bomb.

ADRIANA: It's funny because I've heard the same thing from various people who get into Kotlin and they're like, yeah, it's so good. Cleaner, like version of Java, right? Because it runs on the JVM.

RIZEL: Yes, way cleaner. I think I've learned Java in college and I was like, this thing is overwhelming. But like, Kotlin's like, it kind of, it feels TypeScript. It just doesn't feel...It feels lightweight. It's like...ok... And intuitive.

ADRIANA: Yeah, I love it. It makes me want to check out Kotlin. My dad is actually in tech, so I have like big shoes to fill. And he, for years, like, he's retired now, but for years he'd just rave about Kotlin. Like he still loves it. He's like, it's my favorite language to prototype in. Now he does Rust for fun.

RIZEL: Wow.

ADRIANA: Yeah, super hardcore. He's 71 and he does Rust for fun, so there.

RIZEL: And that's, like, cool that you have a dad that was, like, a software engineer.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like big shoes to fill, though, because it's like, you know, he knows his shit. So... Sorry?

RIZEL: No, I was like, I could easily impress my parents. Whereas you're like.

ADRIANA: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. With my dad, it's like, he'll catch the bullshit, but I love it. Kotlin. That's awesome. Okay, do you prefer dev or ops?

RIZEL: I think I prefer dev. I guess there's nice stuff about ops, but I think I'm just a more trained, formally trained dev, that's why.

ADRIANA: Yeah, fair enough. Fair enough. Okay, next question. Do you prefer JSON or YAML?

RIZEL: I prefer JSON. YAML. I don't know. It gives me a headache. I don't know.

ADRIANA: Yeah...it's so funny. For me, it's the opposite. I find, like, JSON is, like, too many curly braces. It's like, Java trauma because I did Java for, like, 16 years, so I'm like, I don't want to see another curly brace.

RIZEL: I get it. I don't know. Like, it'd be like, you didn't indent the right way. And I'm like, man, how many indent?

ADRIANA: Yeah, it's punishing. It's punishing. It's true. Although, like, I'm getting mad at JSON lately because I'm, like, playing with dev containers and, like, I keep forgetting commas after. I'm like, stop yelling at me, JSON. Yeah, no, I mean, that's the worst of it, at least, but it's still like, stop getting mad at me over a comma.

RIZEL: I know that pain.

ADRIANA: I get you. Yeah. Okay, next question. Do you prefer spaces or tabs?

RIZEL: Hmmm...I don't know...people...I think I kind of mix them. I know, like, people are, like, die hard. I think I just press whatever I need to press. I don't really think about it. I just feel like, type, type, space, type, type, tab. So I don't have a preference here.

ADRIANA: Awesome. I love it. Bridging the gap between spaces and tabs. Okay, two more questions left. Do you prefer to learn things through video or text?

RIZEL: Oh, that's a good question. I think it really depends on the situation. Like, if I. If I just want to get something done really quick, like, I'm just like, I just need to figure out how to. Like, I don't want to read a book, to be honest...about, about coding, but if I see some documentation, copy and paste real quick. I'm like, da da da da da. But if I need a deep explain explainer, like, why am I doing this? What's going on? Then I prefer video because I could...I guess I could rewind. I guess you could rewind with a book. I don't know, but I...my brain consumes the information better.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, I get that. I get that. It's funny when you mentioned, like, you don't want to read a book about tech, because it made me think back to, like, in the early days, that's all you had, right? Was, like, those big, thick, manuals, like, for learning a language. And as soon as you mentioned, I don't want to read a book, I'm like, holy shit, like, PTSD. Like, I had this flashback to my childhood of, like...because my dad got me started early in coding, so... Like, I had, like, a book on basic open.

RIZEL: Wow.

ADRIANA: And I'm, like, trying to go through the exercises and type it out on my computer at the same time. Right. Because no online documentation with copy paste. Yeah, I'm with you on that. I don't want to, like, go through a programming book.

RIZEL: Yeah. Shout out to y'all that learned from the books, though. But I, like, it's just so much easier to do, like, command F and copy and paste. I mean, if the book is online, I'm okay with that.

ADRIANA: I am super down for that as well. I like that. I like that. Yeah. I hadn't even, like, thought about that until you mentioned it. Okay, final question. What is your superpower?

RIZEL: Oh, that's a good question. Um. Oh, I guess that I think I'm resourceful. Like, I think a lot of times, people...Is that a superpower? I don't know. They're like, I don't know how to get the answer or whatever. It doesn't matter if it's tech or not. I think I will find a way to make something work.

ADRIANA: That is a great superpower. And I feel like you have to be resourceful in tech. Because we're put in so many situations where it's like, yeah, you can't do that because, you know, you're not allowed to because of, like, whatever work network policy or whatever firewall shit. Or, like, I don't know. Or my problem is, like, a slightly different variant of the thing in stack overflow.

RIZEL: Yes. You can't just straight up copy and paste some text.

ADRIANA: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So, yeah, I think that's such a great superpower. Well, thanks for. Thanks for answering the questions. And now we are ready to get into the meaty bits. So I wanted to start out with. I always like to hear how folks on the show have started their career. So what got you into tech initially?

RIZEL: Yeah. So, initially, I was studying psychology, like, out of college because I didn't really know what I want to study. And then I found out I don't have enough money, and on top of that, I was undocumented. So that made stuff a little bit more complicated. Like, I can't get, like, certain grants and, like, bigger scholarships that people were getting, so I was doing a lot of out of pocket. So then I had to stop going to college, and then that made me reevaluate and be like, okay, I can't. It doesn't really make sense to study psychology because I got to go get my masters to actually make...start making some kind of money or get a job.

So then I was, like, Googling what jobs make the most money really fast. And then, like, tech came up. Okay. Like, so in the beginning, it was, like, a financial thing, but, yeah, yeah. Like, so computer science came up. I got a little nervous by the math because I've never been, like, super strong in math. So I was like, I'll just do information systems major at a community college. So I did that.

RIZEL: I got an internship, got a job, and then that allowed me to, like, pay for college at the same time as having a job, but then...IT support, that was fun, but I just felt like I was really good at it, so it got boring easily for me. I don't know. It's fun, but I'm like, I need more of a challenge. So I was like, okay, I'm ready to try out computer science, but I didn't. I still didn't have enough money to go for, like, a whole bachelor's, so I went to a free coding bootcamp called Resonant Coders. Learned to code from there. And then once I got my software engineering job, then I got a bachelor's in computer science. Did that while I had my software engineering job, and then I transitioned into DevRel.

ADRIANA: Wow, that's so awesome. So it's like this accidental discovery of, like, oh, I actually like this.

RIZEL: Yeah. Yeah. I was like, this is actually fun. Like, I like the challenge, and I like the community. So cool.

ADRIANA: Yeah, the community has been awesome, and especially, I would say, in open source.

RIZEL: Yeah, I agree.

ADRIANA: So you mentioned you got into DevRel, and what got you into the DevRel path.

RIZEL: Yeah. So I was doing software engineering, and I like coding, but I'm not a huge fan of software engineering. I don't know. So, like, you know, like the whole, like, agile and everything into, like, I don't know, that's, it's just not necessarily how I work or, like, what really excites me. So on the side of doing software engineering and on the side of completing my computer science degree, I also was helping to run, like, I also helped to start a nonprofit that was teaching women of color how to code. And I was like, I really enjoy, like, making these presentation decks and just like, explaining to them little parts of code that, like, I don't know, they were asking interesting questions. They were like, why do the hyperlinks turn blue? I'm like, I don't know. I never thought of that. Let me go, like, dig into it. So I really liked that part of, like, still getting to code but explain things to people. So I was like, Googling, how do I get to do that for the same amount of money as, like, software engineering? Because that nonprofit job was not paying. So I kept finding people like Angie Jones and Brian Douglas, and I was like, what's their job? And it's a developer advocate. So that's how I, I just applied. And at first people told me, you don't have experience. But then GitHub gave me a chance.

ADRIANA: That's such a great story. And I love also that, you know, as you mentioned, like, GitHub gave you a chance. And I feel like so many times in tech careers, it's all about someone just taking a chance on you. That they see something beyond the experience, right? Like, I think that's the thing that's a little bit frustrating. I think a lot of people get very hung up on, like, do you know this exact technology? It's like...no. I can learn.

RIZEL: Right. It's not that...I mean, it could be hard, but I have the ability.

ADRIANA: Exactly, exactly. And what is modern tech if not the ability to just pick up a bunch of stuff that you never knew on the fly because, you know, otherwise you get left out.

RIZEL: Yeah, that's how it works. You're never going to know everything. Yeah. So I was really grateful when GitHub gave me the chance. I didn't even think GitHub, like, that's a big company. But I was like, oh, thanks, guys. And I ended up, I think I did really well. So, yeah, absolutely.

ADRIANA: That's so amazing. How, how, like, you know, before when you mentioned, like, working and studying at the same time and running this, this program for women of color coding, like, how, how did you manage doing that? Like, without, you know, just, like, losing your mind. Like, that's a lot of stuff to juggle.

RIZEL: I don't. Okay. I think I was super stressed out, so I wouldn't. I'm not gonna lie to anybody. Like, I was just breezing through. I was. There was. There was times that, like, I was either doing bad at my job or I was doing bad at school. Took to. And then doing good at school, but, like, it would, like, fluctuate. I never reduced the amount that I was giving to the nonprofit maybe until the last year. Like, the last. I did the nonprofit for, like, four or five years. And when I joined GitHub, I was like, this is too much. Like, I'm traveling and doing this, and, like, you could tell the quality of work was kind of lowering, so I did. I did.

There was crying nights and everything because I'm like, my homework's not working or my. My work is not working. So it was not. It was not smooth sailing, but I think I was. I was used to always having multiple jobs or multiple school and jobs, so, like, it didn't feel like anything to me. But now I'm like, I just want one job, and that's it.

ADRIANA: Yeah, that is super fair. And. And, you know, thanks for also, like, being so candid, too, about, like, you know, these things are hard to juggle. And I do often find, like, something does have to give because there's, like, only so many hours in the day. Brainpower, sleep.

RIZEL: Definitely.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. And, you know, I think. I think as we get more into our careers, because it's so easy, like, when you get early into a career, even if it's, like, it's. You've been around for a while, but, like, you've taken on a new career, you don't want to say no, because it's like, but what if this is a great opportunity?

RIZEL: Yeah, I tend to have that problem. I'm trying to reduce it, but that's been, like, a thing for me where I'm like, but I really need the opportunity.

ADRIANA: It's more exposure.

RIZEL: Yes, sorry, go ahead.

ADRIANA: I was gonna say I totally agree, but feel. But saying no also, like, feels so icky sometimes. I don't know if you feel that way, but I feel so guilty when I have it. I'm like, I'm letting someone down.

RIZEL: Yeah, I feel. I feel bad sometimes because it's just tough. I think even at GitHub, I really loved working there, and I did really well there. But sometimes some people, like, I think I was one of the more visible people on my team, and I was like, relatable. So sometimes people outside of my team would be like, hey, we need you to work on this. And I'm like, what about my coworker? And they're like, no, no. You're the only one that can do it. And people were like, you just gotta say no. I'm like, but I already said no. And they pushed back. I'm just going to say yes. Now I'm nervous, or I feel bad.

ADRIANA: But it's so flattering at the same time, right? Because I think a lot of our job, especially as DevRels, is that relatability. And that's why people consume our content, because they look at the stuff that we produce and it's good, but also, like, we're approachable, relatable. It's like, oh, I want to talk to you. So then you don't want to say no.

RIZEL: It was, like, flattering and overwhelming at the same time.

ADRIANA: I know, right? Yeah, yeah, I feel ya. And as a DevRel, have you also like, what's kind of your favorite thing to DevRel on? Is it like blog post creation, talks, video content? Like, what's your, what's your jam?

RIZEL: Ooh, that's a good question. I think blog posts are my thing. Like, I'm very. I love doing blog posts. Recently, as I've gone to this new job, maybe I've done less of them. I also like live streams because, like, live stream coding or live stream talking to other people within, um, this particular whatever industry I'm in because I think it allows me to learn more about that industry while also, like, creating a connection for my company. Um, I like talks too. I like a lot of it. The only thing I probably don't like as much is I'm probably not the best at, like, pre recorded video content creation.

ADRIANA: That's stressful. Like, you would think would be easy because it's like, I have a script, I just need to, like, talk in the video, and it's like, no worse than, like, than doing, like, a live talk or live stream.

RIZEL: Yeah, because the live stream, you're going to make a mistake. You can't rewind it is what it is. But pre recording, I'm like, no, I got to do that over and then it's like 10 hours later.

ADRIANA: Oh, yeah, I. I can totally relate. Like, I created video content last year, and sometimes it would take, like, I think for a five minute thing, it would take over an hour. And there were so many outtakes of me going, fuck, I'm sure if I hadn't deleted all those outtakes, or...like, I would have a computer full of fucks.

RIZEL: That would be a cool blooper reel.

ADRIANA: Oh my God. It would be. I want to ask you, like, about public speaking. Like, what was sort of, like, your first public speaking experience? Was it, like, in a tech setting, or was it a non tech setting? Like, what launched you into doing talks?

RIZEL: Yeah, DevRel did. Because actually, my intention was like, I don't know. I didn't. I didn't know that this was probably over ambitious, but I was like, I don't want or not ambitious. Or maybe under ambitious. Like, I thought I could sneak get away with it. I was like, I don't want to do any public speaking. I was like, I'll just sit behind the scenes. And my manager's like, yeah, I don't know if that's going to work, Rizel. So I think at first, I started off, like, doing virtual talks, and I think that was helpful because it was pretty similar to when I did a nonprofit I would, like, do talks to. Like, it was kind of like talks to beginners. So I'm like, okay. Familiar. And then after that, the first, like, in public and other people seeing me was at Kansas City Developer Conference.

ADRIANA: Oh, cool.

RIZEL: Yeah, it was a nice audience. They were, like, welcoming, so that was good. But because before that, my public speaking skills were not good. I was like. I just kept having a shaky voice. Every time I did any kind of public speaking, it could be, like, a small crowd, and they'd be like, Rizel, present your demo. And it'd be like, hello.

ADRIANA: It can be so nerve wracking going in front of an audience, because, like, I don't know if you get this, but, like, when I go to speak, I'm like, shit, they're looking at me.

RIZEL: Yeah.

ADRIANA: They expect me to say intelligent things.

RIZEL: Yeah, yeah.

ADRIANA: The self conscious thing comes up, and you're like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. I'm usually like, I'm dying before. Right before a talk. And then when once I get in the groove, I, like, calm down, and then the world melts, thankfully.

ADRIANA: But I'm a wreck beforehand.

RIZEL: Same, I think. Yeah. Now, for some reason, I don't know what switched, but now I just black out everybody. Like, I don't even realize they're there anymore, because once. Once I realize that people are there or, like. And I, like, make eye contact, that's when the nerves come back. But if I block out everybody, I'm like, I'm just talking. And it is really good.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

ADRIANA: You know, I think I do something similar because a lot of, like, advice around public speaking is, oh, focus in on one person in the audience and connect with them. And I'm like, I don't know if I want to make eye contact with people like that.

RIZEL: I don't. I probably look like I am, but I didn't see you. For real.

ADRIANA: Yeah. I'm more of a I will scan back and forth as I talk kind of thing.

RIZEL: Yeah.

ADRIANA: Oh, that's so cool. Yeah, it definitely takes. Definitely takes a practice to get used to it, and I think to also, like, just kind of go with the flow when you realize that, you know, you've, like, messed something up. I had a talk where I had a co speaker recently, and she started, like, saying my lines at one point. I'm like, no, no, no, we gotta rewind. You know, like, we're not gonna get hung up on that. It is what it is. It's like, back up, restart, and the show must go on.

RIZEL: Yeah, you just gotta go with, yeah, I make lots of mistakes, so I just have to erase them from my mind. I mean, it's whatever happened. Like, one time I showed my speaker notes, and I kind of. I just, like, I was like, oh, no, y'all can see my speaker notes, and I just moved on. Yeah. I'm like, it is what it is.

ADRIANA: For real, that is actually one of my public speaking nightmares is for people to see my speaker notes. It's a window into my soul.

RIZEL: I was like, how? In my head, I was like, how long have they been looking at the notes? Like, I don't know.

ADRIANA: I had an online talk once where, um, I had forgotten to start sharing the slides, but fortunately it was caught early enough.

RIZEL: Oh, yeah.

ADRIANA: But I was, like, so embarrassed. I'm like, I. I can't think about this. I just need to, like, carry on and pretend that this didn't happen. But that's another nightmare of mine.

RIZEL: And when I did the GitHub universe keynote, I messed up. But everybody was like, we didn't even notice. Like, I was, like, kicking myself about it. Like, I was like, oh, my God. Because basically there was, like, a recording of, like, I was demoing. What was it called? It was, like, Copilot Voice. They changed the name of it, but basically it's like, use your voice and then Copilot writes stuff for you.

Yeah, but it was really hard to do live, so we were like, we're going to pre-record it and, like, kind of pretend you're doing it live, because I didn't record it with my voice, but sometimes, like, you know, your accent or whatever, it just wouldn't always go smoothly. And we have, like, a set amount of time, like, in the background, GitHub Copilot's, like, typing all the stuff that I'm saying, and then I. I think I went either ahead of it or behind it, and, like, it typed it out way after I said something, and then I was like, oh, no. Like, I said it under my breath, and when I was done, I was like, oh, my God. Like, everybody knew it. And everybody's like, we did not hear you say, oh, no. Like, we didn't even notice you made a mistake.

ADRIANA: And, you know, that that's, like, such an important thing to call out, though, because I think, like, we tend to be so hard on ourselves when we give talks, and I think if people are interested in the content that we're producing, the things that we're talking about, they're not going to be scrutinizing every single little thing that you've done, because all they care about is, have I learned something? Am I having fun in this talk? And I think if you can deliver that, no one's going to harp on this stuff, but we, as perfectionists, lovers of our craft, were like, oh, my God.

RIZEL: I want it to be perfect. But it's never perfect.

ADRIANA: Never, never. Especially with live demos. This is why, as a rule of thumb, I don't do live demos. I pre-record my demos. I'm honestly terrified of doing live demos and live coding. So hats off to you for doing live coding, because I'm the kind of gal who likes to code in the comfort of my own personal little nook, and. And that is it. I hate it when people watch over me as I'm coding.

RIZEL: Yeah, no, I I'm not a fan of it, either, but I think it's helping help me to grow and, like, I don't know, I become a better live coder on stage, so that's been good for me. But I agree with you. It's way comfortable to just be in your bed or just, like, in your own office and just typing with no one looking.

ADRIANA: Exactly. No one can see, like, the. The angry, like, print statements that you put in. That's when I start to angry code. Why isn't this working? Why aren't you hitting the for loop?

RIZEL: Oh, my God.

ADRIANA: So I wanted to switch gears a little bit and talk about. So, you mentioned that you were at GitHub, but you've got a new gig. Why don't you tell folks about your current gig?

RIZEL: Yeah, actually, I almost worked here for a year. Now it's about like eleven months. Yeah. A company called TBD, that is the real name, but it's. It's a company or a business unit within Block. So Block has a couple of business units, like Square, Cash App, TBD, Title, like a couple different things. And, um, so just like background. Like, the idea behind all of this is like, Block really cares...or, this is their mission is like financial empowerment.

So with square, they enabled like, mom and pop shops to be able to like, accept payments through, like, you know, you can just. In the beginning it was like you just put this little card reader on a phone and you could swipe it and stuff like that. And then with cash app, I know you're in Canada, but, like, within America it's like, oh, cool, I can send money to my friends with the click of a button. And so with TBD, we're doing a couple of things. One of the things is we're creating a. An SDK that allows financial institutions to basically make it easier for you to send money internationally and like, change the currency and stuff like that. Yeah. Because like, you're, you probably know, like, it's annoying if you're going to get money from or something.

So they want to make it a smoother experience. So we're not necessarily building the tool that makes it a smoother experience, but we're building like, the SDK so that financial institutions and other businesses can take that and then they can build that. And then in addition to that, we also have this thing called Web5, which I know oftentimes people are like, what happened to Web4? And stuff like that. Like, yeah, I get it. But basically the. It's a tongue in cheek kind of name. But they're, the whole idea is they're trying to make it easier for you to own your data and your identity without block, the use of blockchain. So, like, they'll.

They're basically like, we like the idea that, like, Web3 had of like, decentralizing things and helping you to own things, but there's like a barrier within blockchain. Like, we like some stuff, but we want to make it a little bit of a lower barrier to entry. And a lot of the stuff we're using like, our open standards from the W3C. And they're not like I, before I came into TBD, I was like, what are they really doing? But it's not like they made up anything. Like, one of the open standards is called Verifiable Credentials. And that's actually what mobile driver's license use underneath the hood. Like, that's the technology, the standard.

Yeah. So it just allows you to be able to, like, have your digital identity on your phone and be able to control who can get access to certain parts of your data. Like, let's say you wanted to prove that you're of legal drinking age. Usually you will show your physical ID. It has your address and everything. You don't really need to show that. They just need to know you're over that age. So you can show your phone, have it be scanned, and it'll just be like, yep, this person's over 21 or 18 or whatever, and then you get your alcohol. So that's kind of like how the technology works.

ADRIANA: So it basically, it's like we're just showing the necessary information.

RIZEL: Yes, exactly. Yeah. It's called "selective disclosure". So you can choose to disclose only the things you want.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah. And, you know, that's so important nowadays because, like, I feel like we've basically become open books in terms of personal data.

RIZEL: Right.

ADRIANA: Because, you know, it's like, you want this, you got to sign up for that. Like, I can't go into a store. Like, I'll go into, like, a retail store. And they're like, can I start off with your phone number? I'm like, how about no? What do you need it for? Yeah, or like, you've returned something and they. They want, like, your entire life's history. It's like, I'm returning, like, a five dollar thing. Why do you need, like, all this stuff about me?

RIZEL: Exactly. And that even reminds me, I think earlier you, before the. The stream start or the podcast started, you were asking me, like, oh, do I want to talk about, like, pregnancy and tech? But that reminded me about something else. So I actually used Web5. Like, and I want to build more on this idea, but, like, in a company hackathon, I was like, it would be so cool if you can, like, own your, like, menstrual cycle data, your period date. Oh, that's the same thing. Your pregnancy data, all that. Any fertility or anything that's going on with, like, your own personal health. Because I feel like as soon as I, like, Googled any questions about it, or I downloaded an, like, a pregnancy app, then, like, TikTok and all my Facebook reels were like, what it's like to be a mom? And I'm like, dang. Yeah. So I'm like, it'll be so cool to still be able to track this stuff digitally, but, like, be able to own that data and then have the ability to share it with who you want to share it with.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah.

RIZEL: There's slightly two different concepts, but very similar. So, like, the verifiable credentials. And then what I used was something called the decentralized Webno, but the details don't matter too much. But anyways, it would be like, you can decide. Maybe I want, like, my partner to see this particular information or my doctor to see just this one part, like, of the information. Yeah. The rest for myself. So, like, yeah, it would be like that.

ADRIANA: Oh, yeah, that, yeah, that is so useful. And so that's something that you said that you were building as, like, part of an. You did it as part of an internal hackathon?

RIZEL: Yeah, it's like, very, like, bare bones.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah.

RIZEL: I really want to, like, continue to build upon that. So there's. There's more to it right now, which is, like, you just add your. Your cycle data and then you have control over it, and then you could send it to someone, but I want to add. Yeah.

ADRIANA: Yeah. That's so great. Wow. Yeah. That's such a useful application. You know, it's funny because you know that back when. Back in my day, there was, like, none of this, like, tracking cycles through an app. So, like, when that stuff came out, it's like, what? You can track it through an app, but then, you know, it's like the can of worms that. That opens up. Right. It's like, oh, you got. You got a cycle tracker? And what does that actually mean? Where's my data going?

RIZEL: Right, exactly.

ADRIANA: Yeah. So, because, like, why does it need to go anywhere but, you know, within the confines of, like, you.

RIZEL: Exactly. And I get that's how, like, they make money. So they, like, do marketing that way and they sell your data that way, but it's like, I don't even know who you gave it to.

ADRIANA: Yeah, exactly. It's kind of creepy. Like.

ADRIANA: No, thanks. On a similar vein, can you talk a little bit about, you know, like, as we talked before the show, like, you mentioned that you're pregnant. How far along are you at this point? How's it been? How are you finding, like, being a pregnant woman in tech? Is there, like, do you think that there's. There is, like, there is a difference being a pregnant woman in tech versus not in tech?

RIZEL: Yeah, that's a good question. Yeah. I'm about 24 weeks right now, and I would say, hmm. I think it's probably. It's probably easier. Well, my experience. Right. If I. Maybe I was going in person a lot. That would be much more exhausting if I was going to work in person. But I have the ability to, like, work from home, so that's been good. And, like, I know that tech has a lot more flexibility in terms of, like, hours and stuff like that. Like some. Some jobs, not all of them, but, like, you know, no one's like, oh, your bubble went gray for a second.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah.

RIZEL: So that part has been beneficial. I think some parts of DevRel I might have been over ambitious with. So, like, at the. I mean, I didn't know I was going to be pregnant. So I had all these talks lined up and it went to them and I was like, oh, my God. Like, I did not know that first trimester is so exhausting. Like, I would tell people who are never been pregnant and they're like, are you eating your vitamins? I'm like, yeah, I am. Yeah, I don't think the vitamins are gonna make me less sleepy.

ADRIANA: Yes. The your dead ass tired in a way that you never thought was possible.

RIZEL: Yeah. I'm like, dang. Usually I'm a person, it's actually a little bit of a hard hit for me because I'm usually a person that, like, I don't know, I just get excited sometimes about work and I want to do, like, extra work and never been in a spot where I do not want to do extra work. In fact, I'm logging off early. Like, like, it would be like, 3:00 and I'm like, just gonna close my laptop. I can't even read what people are saying on Slack. Like, I get sleepy every day at, like, 2:30, 3:00 p.m. So that was a hard hit for me because I was like, oh, my God, maybe I was like, is all the pregnancy gonna be like this? Like, I was like, maybe I can't even work anymore.

ADRIANA: I definitely felt that in my first trimester, I legitimately thought I'm like, I'm just gonna, like, peace out for the next few months.

RIZEL: I was like, Googling, why isn't maternity leave longer? How do you more? Wait, Canada has like 18 months or something, though.

ADRIANA: Yeah, you can do up to 18 months now. So when I was pregnant, it was twelve months. So you get twelve months where. So the way it works is like, you're entitled to twelve months. Twelve to 18 months now, which means that you do have your job guaranteed after that period. Like, when you return, it's up to your company as to how much they pay you during that time. So, like, when I was pregnant with my daughter, it was, I think my company paid, like, I want to say, six weeks at, like, 90 or 95% pay. And then after that, you go on unemployment, which is like piddly poo, but you are, you are technically guaranteed your job when you return.

And I'm saying that in air quotes because there has been some shady ass shit that's happened where I've actually had a few friends who returned from mat leave, and then it's like, hey, welcome back to your job. Next day, oh, by the way, you're fired. Or it's like, oh, we're restructuring. And so there have been some interesting, like, obviously, companies are not allowed to do that, but some, some do, some have taken, like, have, have taken their companies to court over stuff like that. But, yeah, but, yeah, we do have that entitlement. I took advantage of that, for sure. It was, it was hard. Mat leave was hard because, like, I'm a very, like, I can't sit still.

I'm an ADHDer. I cannot sit still. And this idea of, like, sitting home with my baby who was like, you know, the first three months is so boring because they're just, like, sleeping, crying, and pooping, and I'm like, nothing exciting is happening. And I'm like, this is so boring, and I need to be out doing something. But then they get more interesting after three months. And honestly, like, I'm so grateful that I had that opportunity because getting to see her grow, like, over that year was so unique. But it is so hard also, like, if you're used to being active and out and about and, like, my sense of, like, I need to feel like I'm productive all the time. So, you know, even, even, like, you talking about the first trimester fatigue, like, I used to not believe in naps until I got pregnant.

RIZEL: Me too.

ADRIANA: It's like, give me a nap.

RIZEL: Yeah. My husband takes so many naps throughout the day. He's a software engineer, and I'm like, why are you taking naps? Just get your work done. Like, come on. But then I just all of a sudden, like, I need to take my daily nap.

ADRIANA: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. My husband was so excited when I started getting into naps because he loves naps. I'm like, naps are for old people. And we napped together while I was pregnant. And, like, oh, this is the best. We need more of that. And then, and then second trimester, for me, I was lucky that I got, like, my energy back. And then third trimester, it, like, it crashed again.

RIZEL: I'm preparing. I'm now I'm prepared because I, like, I mean, part of second trimester, I was like, y'all were lying. I'm still tired, but I'm like, I'm in an energetic area, so I'm trying to get as much work done as possible. And then once it's third trimester, I know I'll probably go down because I, what you were mentioning of people still getting laid off. And so I don't think my company or my manager would do this to me, but I have read a book about kind of what you said, like, how companies they use, like, maternity leave or medical leave in a sly way to eventually fire the person. And I'm like, don't want that. I want that. Like, you're like, even though Rizel was gone for twelve weeks, like, she did, she did that. She was accomplishing stuff before she left.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, I think it's a combination of, like, working for a good company, having a good manager who has your back. Yeah. Makes a huge difference. One thing that was challenging for me when I was pregnant because, like, so I'm originally from Brazil and so for my parents, like, this, like, mat leave thing, it's different there. And my mom was a stay at home mom as well, so, and so for her, it was, like, very important that my sister and I both had jobs. She's like, you need to be independent. Make your own money, la la la. So when I was on mat leave, my parents are like, you're taking the full twelve months? I'm like, yeah. They're like, out of sight, out of mind. They'll forget about you.

RIZEL: I'm like.

ADRIANA: They were like, they were really on my ass about, like, you know, taking six months off or whatever. And I was like considering it for a while. I'm like, oh, my God, what if they're right? And then six months, you know, hits, you know, into my mat leave, I'm like, I can't do that. Like that.

RIZEL: No, take all the time you need with your kid. Because if they're giving that benefit, I'm like, some people, they don't get a chance to see, like, even be at home. Like, I don't know how my friends who are, like, in retail and stuff like that, like, they worked until they gave birth and then they barely had mat leave. I'm like, wow, that is impressive. And also a little bit sad.

ADRIANA: Yeah, it's like, you have to make do, but it's like, it's so stressful and, like, your hormones are raging after you give birth. Like, if you think your hormones are raging now.

RIZEL: Oh, no. Well, I guess I don't need to worry about it. My husband does.

ADRIANA: That's true. That's true. Yeah. It's the recipients who have the hardest time. But it's nice that, like, you get to work from home, you know? And it sounds like your husband is working from home as well?

RIZEL: Yeah. He only goes into the office two times a week.

ADRIANA: Oh, nice. Yeah, that is a really good setup and. Yeah, and that's definitely, like, a huge advantage to. To working in tech and starting a family is that you're. If you're able to work from home, then you have that ability to be with your kid, and especially if your spouse is home, then you get to, like, tag team. So not one person is dying all the time.

RIZEL: Yeah, I cannot complain. If I. The only thing, if I had to do it over, I will realize how tired that you could really get, and I would have planned it out better. I think I'm in maybe a more better. A better position than maybe some other working women who are pregnant.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fair enough. Fair enough. Oh, this is such an exciting time. Do you know if you're having a boy or a girl. Are you gonna just wait to find out?

RIZEL: Oh, I know. We have zero patience. As soon as we did...the test results were available, we're like, what is it? Tell us the gender. Everyone's like, do a gender reveal. It's gonna be so fun. Like, no, I don't care. Yeah.

ADRIANA: Oh, so what. What are you having?

RIZEL: Oh, it's a girl.

ADRIANA: Oh, yay. So much fun. I'm a little biased because I have a girl, and she's lots of fun.

RIZEL: I'm excited.

ADRIANA: She edits. She edits the videos for this podcast, actually.

RIZEL: Oh, she does? Oh, look at her. Wow.

ADRIANA: But she rejects tech, so. She wants to be a dentist.

RIZEL: Okay. At least that's a good job still.

ADRIANA: Oh, yeah, totally. No complaints. She knows what she wants to do. So I'm like, you good. You good. Oh, that's so exciting, though. Awww, congrats. It's. It's gonna be a wild ride, but it'll be. I promise it'll be fun.

RIZEL: Thank you. I hope so. Thanks so much.

ADRIANA: Well, we are coming up on time, but as we. Before we wrap up, I wanted to see if you have any, like, parting words of wisdom or hot takes or just anything that you wanted to share with folks...advice?

RIZEL: As I will say, a lot of times people ask me like, oh, how do you like level up when you're a junior? And stuff like that. And this is probably not an answer people really like, but I think it's. It eventually comes with time and patience and just putting in work. I think I always was like, I really want to, like, level up. Like, I don't know how to do the things I'm doing, but I'm like, just continue to stay involved. There's not really. To me, there's not really a fast track. Like, as long as you continue to stay involved with your team and keep building and keep trying to learn, you'll naturally go on that, like, learning path or that growth path.

ADRIANA: That's great. I really love that. And, you know, it is so absolutely true. I mean, you gotta. You gotta put in the work. You gotta put in the face time, and. And you'll see the rewards. That's amazing.

Well, thank you so much, Rizel, for Geeking Out with me today. Y'all. Don't forget to subscribe and be sure to check the show notes for additional resources and to connect with us and our guests on social media. Until next time...

RIZEL: Peace out and geek out.

ADRIANA: Geeking Out is hosted and produced by me, Adriana Villela. I also compose and perform the theme music on my trusty clarinet. Geeking Out is also produced by my daughter, Hannah Maxwell, who, incidentally, designed all of the cool graphics. Be sure to follow us on all the socials by going to bento.me/geekingout.

About our guest:

Iris Dyrmishi is an Observability Engineer dedicated to the belief that observability is fundamental to a company's success and the performance of its tech stack. Enthusiastic about sharing insights through speaking and writing, with a particular focus on observability and OpenTelemetry.

Find our guest on:

• LinkedIn

Find us on:

• All of our social channels are on bento.me/geekingout
• All of Adriana's social channels are on bento.me/adrianamvillela

Show notes:

• Miro
• Iris on On-Call Me Maybe
• Iris on OTel Q&A
• Iris on OTel in Practice
• Iris on OTel Collector User Feedback Panel
• Iris on OTel x Prometheus Interoperability Panel
• Iris on Humans of OTel
• OTel End User Special Interest Group (SIG)
• Iris' Blog on Medium
• OpenTelemetry Collector
• OpenTelemetry Operator
• OpenTelemetry zero-code instrumentation (auto-instrumentation)
• Join CNCF Slack
• OTel Collector channel on CNCF Slack
• OTel Operator channel on CNCF Slack
• OpenTelemetry Protocol (OTLP)

Additional notes:

• KCD Porto

Transcript:

ADRIANA: Hey, fellow geeks, welcome to Geeking Out, the podcast about all geeky aspects of software delivery, DevOps, Observability, reliability, and everything in between. I'm your host, Adriana Villela, coming to you from Toronto, Canada. And geeking out with me today is Iris Dyrmishi. Welcome, Iris.

IRIS: Hello, Adriana, nice to be here.

ADRIANA: So happy to have you. And Iris is one of our, I would say, like On-Call Me Maybe alum, and it's been cool to be able to like bring various folks who have been on On-Call Me Maybe onto Geeking Out. So I'm super excited to have you on here. So where are you calling from today?

IRIS: I'm calling from Porto, Portugal.

ADRIANA: Awesome. Well, are you ready for our lightning round questions?

IRIS: Yes.

ADRIANA: All right, let's do it. First off, are you a lefty or a righty?

IRIS: A righty.

ADRIANA: Okay. Do you prefer iPhone or Android?

IRIS: iPhone. I used to be an Android freak until two years ago and I switched to iPhone just to try it and now I'm obsessed.

ADRIANA: Oh, you're a convert. Woo. Welcome to team iPhone. Awesome. Do you prefer Mac? Mac? Oh my God, I can't talk. Do you prefer Mac, Linux, or Windows?

IRIS: Mac all the way. Yeah, my Mac suffers a lot with me, but it's my best buddy.

ADRIANA: I feel you. The other day I think I took my Mac to the max. I have an M1 Mac, and those ones don't have fans. They never heat up. I was working outside and we're having like a mega heat wave right now in Toronto, like a heat dome. And it's been like, I think with the humidity, it's been like feeling like 40 degrees, which is outrageous. And my Mac was actually heating up on my lap and I think it was because the outside temperature was like, it was like, yo, you gotta bring me inside. So, yeah, too much, too much. Cool.

ADRIANA: Okay, next question. What is your favorite programming language?

IRIS: I would say Go. If you asked me a year ago it would be Java, but now I'm liking Go a lot. So that's my go-to language.

ADRIANA: And Go is so compact compared to Java.

IRIS: I've suffered a lot with Java, not a lot with Go, so I highly recommend to get into it. It will make your life a lot easier and everything Observability right now it's written in Go, so it's good.

ADRIANA: There you go. So it's perfect. It's funny because like you mentioning...I suffered a lot with Java, I can definitely relate because for me, I don't know if you've ever experienced this, but like every time I set up a JVM on a new machine, it always caused me problems. Or also like, some software was using whatever version of the JVM and you're writing your stuff in some other version of the JVM and they no likie each other and...

IRIS: It's crazy.

ADRIANA: Yeah. Go is very opinionated. I do appreciate that about it. Okay, next question. Do you prefer dev or ops?

IRIS: Ops. I got trained as a dev, but I started working as an ops very early in my career and I love it. Now I'll never change again.

ADRIANA: It's funny because, like, you know, a lot of times, like, there is like, you know, in school, there's...you can either, like, get a degree in computer science, computer engineering, or like, you can go to a coding camp. And so there's training for dev, right, but there's like, no training for ops. How wild is that?

IRIS: Yeah. I'm actually thinking I want to get a master's degree. I want to further my studies now, but I'm so deep into my career, into ops and doing a master's degree, it would feel just like doing it for the sake of it. There is nothing that will further my knowledge in the ops field. It's crazy. I'm really trying to find a good program, but it's just impossible. It's either game development or back end development or for example, machine learning, which are, of course, good skills to have. But if you are doing that degree to improve what you're currently doing, it's, it's impossible. You cannot find anything with ops, especially Observability, of course, but, yeah, in general. Yeah.

ADRIANA: Yeah, I know, right? Yeah, you need like an Observability camp.

IRIS: We should make it happen.

ADRIANA: I know, right? There you go. There's. There's the idea of the day. Okay, next question. Do you prefer JSON or YAML?

IRIS: YAML. I work a lot in infrastructure with YAML, and right now I can debug it with a clear eye without even needing anything. Like, I can see. Ah, there's a problem. It is the problem with the indentation. But, you know, I'm so used to it now, how it's supposed to look that it's very. It comes very easy to me.

ADRIANA: Yeah, I was gonna say, like, being so, so heavily invested in the ops side of things. Like YAML, YAML, Go, is like part of the ops toolkit these days. Okay. Spaces or tabs?

IRIS: Spaces. I feel like I have more control over the spaces. With tab, it's like too much. With spaces, you can do one at a time and fix things.

ADRIANA: I'm with you on that. Okay, a few more questions. Do you prefer to consume content through video or text?

IRIS: Text. Because the video, I get distracted very easily. If I'm watching a video, I'm thinking a thousand other things and I will not get the knowledge that I need. By reading, I focus and I take notes. It's much easier.

ADRIANA: Yeah, I agree. I agree. I find it, I find it really irritating when, like, I'm forced to watch a video because I can't find the answer anywhere else and then I have to sit there and sit through it in like five gillion restarts because similarly, my brain starts to, like, go in all the directions and I'm like, oh, this gave me an idea for blah. No, watch the video. Totally get it. And finally, what is your superpower?

IRIS: I would say that I get things done. I'm very crafty in life and in my work. Like, if I have something that I need to do, I do it no matter what. I find a workaround and if there is none, I'm gonna find a workaround. For the workaround, I always get things done. And that's a nice skill to have, especially in ops, but in real life as well, even like, for example, to put a picture in the wall, I don't have the tools. I always find a way. It just happens. So, yeah, it's a nice superpower to have.

ADRIANA: That is a great superpower. And it's so relevant for our line of work. I mean, for any, any line of work. But I feel like for our line of work, like, the craftiness translates to creative problem solving, especially when we are hampered for whatever reason from doing the thing. So I think that's so cool.

IRIS: And makes work and life fun. It really challenges you when you have to get crafty, so, you know, you never get bored.

ADRIANA: I agree. So hopefully I don't put you on the spot asking this, but what is an example of being crafty that, like, you're super proud of?

IRIS: Actually, yeah. One thing that I'm very crafty is like, I live in a very small apartment that I'm renting right now. So I wanted to have a very fancy office set up. So I went to Amazon, I went to Google, I went to 100 different, and I bought the small pieces here and there. And I have made like three screens. Beautiful, like amazing, comfortable. You know, it's like without spending too much money. And I'm very proud of it because it was like, okay, I got this in a bargain from Amazon. I got this from there and just put it together. And without the space, it still is, like, a great place to work. And it's, like, my creative space. It's more of a home project, but, yeah, I feel proud of it.

ADRIANA: Oh, that's so cool. And, you know, like, having a cool space where you can, you know, let the creative juices flow is so important because you got to be, like, comfortable where you're working, right?

IRIS: Absolutely. And, yeah, I have my beautiful screens. You know, I look like a hacker in the movies. You know, when I was a kid, I used to watch, I was like, wow, that's so cool.

ADRIANA: It's funny because, like, you know, you mentioning, like, you. You creating, like, a nice little workspace for yourself, you know, like, thinking back to the days of working in the. In an office. Right? And I don't know if you had a similar experience, but I did go through a phase where, like, I had a nice large cubicle that I decorated and stuff, and then the company I was working at, like, moved to, like, bench seating. So it's like, you have enough space for, you know, like, your monitors, your keyboard, and maybe some extra stuff and, like, a little drawer under your desk. And it's a very sort of in, impersonal workspace at that point.

IRIS: Yeah. For me, it was always working in this open spaces that you can sit wherever you want and you have a monitor, then you can plug it in, but every time you sit somewhere else, it's never personal. So I like to have my own space to organize it how I want to have, like, a microphone here to buy little things and decorate it. It just brings pleasure. And I work fully remote now, so it's great solution to have, like, this nice little space.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah. And that's the thing. I think that's what's really nice about working remotely, is that you can kind of craft your own little working corner and get it just the way you like it. And I love seeing people's different setups for remote work. Like, some people, like, do really cool lights and stuff, or, like, you know, they'll do the mechanical keyboards, or they'll invest in, like, you know, three monitors, three external monitors, and it's like, oh, my God, this is so cool. Things that, you know, we wouldn't necessarily have that at an office without, like, you know, going through whatever process to, like, request extra monitors. And they'd be like, why do you need all this extra crap?

IRIS: Yeah, I bet they cannot give me a blanket that my cats can sleep next to me. That's what I have as a Christmas gift, we got a blanket from Miro, and my cats love it. So they take turns coming there. I'm working, they're purring. It's perfect stress control. I cannot get it anywhere else.

ADRIANA: And being able to work with your cats because, like, you, you hear a lot of, like, offices that are like, dog friendly and, and because of the nature of cats, I mean, I don't, I don't.

IRIS: They cannot be together.

ADRIANA: Yeah, well, that's the other thing. Yeah, they can't be together. And also, I doubt people would want to bring their cats to the office because the cat would be like, what are you doing to me?

IRIS: They like to escape as well. So, yeah, it's not a good idea. You can have them at home, but nowhere else.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah. Fair enough. Fair enough. Well, all right, well, thank you for answering the lightning round questions. And now we shall get into the meaty bits. And, you know, one thing that I love chatting with you about is Observability. And that's how we got connected in the first place is we got connected on Observability when we brought you on to On-Call Me Maybe, and hearing about your Observability journey on there. And it's been really cool to see you as a more active participant of the OpenTelemetry community, which has been awesome.

And getting to meet you in person at KubeCon in Paris a few months back, that was so cool. But yeah, I mean, talk about your Observability journey, how it started for you. And now I think when we talked On-Call Me Maybe you were at a different company. So this is like your second Observability role. So if you don't mind sharing your journey and how different it is, like, going, you know, like now being in your second Observability role.

IRIS: So, yeah, a lot has changed in the past year. I remember when I participated in On-Call Me Maybe I was so insecure when I was talking about it because I had been in a while in Observability, but I was still, like, building my position, my skills. And now one year later, I changed company. I'm currently working at Miro, doing Observability there and I can see how much I have evolved. Like, I have become not only good at Observability and knowing how it works, another superpower. I would say that if you wake me up at 2:00 a.m. in the morning, I usually am not very coherent when someone wakes me up. But if you ask me an Observability question, I'm gonna answer that.

ADRIANA: I love that.

IRIS: So, yeah, my passion has reached that point.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

IRIS: But, yeah, now I'm not just like a person building Observability, but I'm also advocating for it a lot. I like to think that in my team, I've advocated for a lot of good technologies of improving Observability and getting to the best possible and getting more engaged with the community. And it has been a great ride. I'm actually not just doing Observability now, but also kind of working more on architecture level to put all the pieces together. So I feel like my journey in Observability has been great, and I'm looking forward to see what is going to bring more and how it's going to advance my career. I plan to be on Observability for a very long time because I really, really like it.

ADRIANA: I love that so much. Yeah. I love your Observability advocacy because it's so infectious. And I've seen, too, that we've had you a bunch of times for end user discussion panels for you giving your feedback as an end user to the OpenTelemetry end user sig. And if I recall correctly, we also had you for OTel Q&A for the End User SIG. And even, I think we even did OTel in Practice, right?

IRIS: Oh, yeah, yeah. We were talking about Observability as a sport, I remember.

ADRIANA: Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah. So we're like, yeah. Because after I met you, I'm like, we must have you for the OTel End Users. So you've been such a great proponent of Observability. And I've seen also, like, got a blog on Medium as well where you, where you write about Observability. And it's so cool. I love seeing that. I love seeing the passion. What is it about Observability that, like, gets you so excited that, you know, for you is like, this is the it thing in my life.

IRIS: Well, it honestly started at something that was so new, I had never heard about it before. Like, not in school, not in work, in companies. It's like something so new. I'm like, okay, I need to learn about it. And the more I learned, I understood how important it is for a company. And it made me wonder why not many other companies have it or are building it at the time when I started my career. So I really got into it and I saw that it's like an industry that is moving so fast. It's becoming so modern, and it always has the best practices if you know how to apply them.

So it always keeps me on my feet, always wanting to improve, always wanting to learn more. Yeah, it's great. It becomes a little bit addictive wanting to know more. I stay on LinkedIn, for example, or on Medium, and I find these great articles use cases and it's just fascinating all the time. It never gets boring, basically.

ADRIANA: Yeah, I totally agree. And I think all aspects of tech Observability just keeps evolving and it's been really interesting to see it evolve over the last little while. And especially with OpenTelemetry. How would you say your experience has been with OpenTelemetry? Like when you started using it versus like now?

IRIS: So when I started, you know, it was something very new for me and of course the community had contributed a lot, but still, it was like finding the unknowns and it took a little bit of getting used to. The documentation was not, not the best. So that's why I even started my, my blog. At the moment, maybe it was just me not being able to put the pieces together, but now it has changed a lot. I see that the community is a lot more involved. We have a lot more exporters, receivers, processors, makes your job a lot easier. And I see that it's always like the maintainers are doing a great job, always keeping on top of everything. For example, we had that security vulnerability some weeks ago.

Yeah. And it was solved immediately. So it's no longer two years ago, maybe even one year ago, people were skeptical to use it because, oh, it's so new. Things are not as well. Now it is the technology to use it. So many vendors are also making it a crucial part of their solution that they're offering. So it's really become that. It's a huge transition from we're skeptical to use it to yes, let's use it, let's find someone who knows how to do it, let's find someone to instruct us how to do it properly.

And that's one of the things that I'm very proud of achieving in Miro and in Farfetch'd. Because in Farfetch when...actually a funny story because when we were in KubCon, they showed the companies that are active participants or that are using OpenTelemetry. And I saw both Farfetch's and Miro and I feel kind of proud because I was an advocate in both cases. But yeah, one year ago and now, and it's a huge difference, but it was always a good technology and you could always see the future and how much premise that it had. Yeah, I am a big fan of OpenTelemetry, and I can talk about it all day as well.

ADRIANA: One thing that I wanted to ask is, I remember, like, when you were at Farfetch, one thing that, like, really struck me was that it had this culture of Observability already, which for me was like, oh, my God, it's like Observability nirvana. Because they were, like, really wanting the team to, like, they wanted the whole organization to implement Observability practices. And I remember you saying that. I think when we chatted for Q&A that there was a directive that it wasn't, you know, developers had to instrument their own code, which near and dear to my heart. How do you compare that to where you're at, at Miro? Did you walk into a similar Observability culture? Is that something that you were kind of brought in to do to start building up that Observability culture? How did it compare?

IRIS: I think that I entered in Miro with the same Observability need and culture, but I think that my role actually, during my interview process, I actually interviewed them as well about how Observability works. Because since I'm so passionate being brought to a place that just having the Observability title and not actually doing what it is would not make sense. But, yeah, when I entered, I realized that it actually has that culture as well. They just needed more people to advocate more and to make it bigger, a bigger movement. And at the moment, we are in that stage. That Observability is one of the main initiatives in the company. Still the same. Everybody owns, instruments their code, owns their alerting, owns their dashboard.

So I'm very happy with that. I think that we're doing it correctly even here. Yeah, even now that we have more experience with the community as well. It's a great movement in Miro as well with the Observability. I'm very, very happy with that. And we're also collaborating a bit more here with other teams, for example, with performance. OpenTelemetry is helping both of us, and we're pushing it together forward. So it's a great movement.

ADRIANA: That's so cool having that culture that you're, you're walking into. And I, you know, you, you mentioned something that's so important that, you know, you interviewed them as well, because, I mean, I've always been a huge proponent, proponent of the philosophy that, you know, when you're interviewing a job, it's not just them interviewing you it's you interviewing them because you need to make sure it's a good fit for you as well. Right? Because there's nothing worse than walking into, you know, a complete shit show, unbeknownst to you, because you didn't ask the right questions. And I, and making sure that you knew what kind of work you wanted to do and making sure that you could continue doing that work, I think is really, really important. And I think career wise, we all deserve to find our little corner where we can be happy with our jobs. Yeah, I can't underscore that enough. It's so awesome that you ask those questions. Now, in terms of the Observability practice, what is the main functionality of your team?

IRIS: So my team, we are currently having a fully open source Observability platform. We have built the logging pipeline. Tracing pipeline metrics, pipeline visualization. We usually use Grafana, open source kibana. So basically we build everything from scratch. And of course we help teams for alerting to build. Alerting to build their instrumentation. Advice on best practices.

Usually we don't touch the code. I personally, I haven't done backend coding in so long that even if I wanted, I couldn't go and just like in a matter of days, get into it and help instrument. I wouldn't, I wouldn't be able to. But, yeah, usually in this part, we're advisory and just maintaining the main stack, improving it, making it better in general. Now we're actually moving, making the big move to OpenTelemetry. We finished with tracing. We're working with every everything else. So, yeah, it's basically always evolving from one place to the other to provide the best tools.

ADRIANA: Nice. And how has it gone in terms of getting people into using OpenTelemetry? Was it something...because, I mean, it's already like, it sounds like an Observability centered organization. However, like, what were they using before for before OpenTelemetry.

IRIS: So for the main reason why we went into the OpenTelemetry or how we were able to sell it, let's say, was tracing. We were using Jaeger and tracing those pillars. That was kind of the forgotten child. I went there and I was like, tracing, tracing, tracing, talking about it all the time. It's actually a running joke right now in the team as well. They're like, yeah, yeah, tracing. Yes, it's tracing. So we have now he's our senior manager, but he used to be a staff engineer in the team still working actively with us.

He said, okay, let's push it forward. Let's have OpenTelemetry and tracing become the pillar that people didn't really care about. They saw that when we had OpenTelemetry, we could handle a lot more. Some change their instrumentation and they could see a lot more information during incidents. So it was kind of selling it. By showing what a good thing tracing was and how OpenTelemetry helped, it became easier to say, especially to upper management, that, hey, this is a great tool. See what we can do with this. And for the engineers, actually, it was very easy.

Once they saw how much of a potential tracing was, they understood that other pillars will be equally useful. So, yeah, it's now it's our main, main tool that we are planning to use for our Observability needs. So it's very, very good. And when I joined in November in the team, there were some small talks about OpenTelemetry, but we were saying, oh, maybe later, maybe later. And then we were like, tracing is good, OpenTelemetry is great. Sharing articles every day about something that happened in the community. And in January, we had already migrated traces, so in two months we already managed to turn some mindset around.

ADRIANA: Oh, that's so amazing. How cool. And so I guess people didn't have too much trouble implementing, like instrumenting their code using OpenTelemetry. Like, was there any, was there any education on your part or your team's part where you had to kind of direct them, as you said, not instrument their code for them, but explain, like, this is how you approach it, these are your best practices?

IRIS: Yeah, we're doing it constantly, and we're really taking advantage of the OpenTelemetry instrumentation, the libraries that already are and the documents that are already there. Usually the team did most of the work, but we do have, for example, a monolith. And some, of course, applications are very sensitive because we have a lot of users that use our product live 24 hours, depending on where they are on. So it was a bit sensitive. So I would say that, yes, we've done some instructions and sharing documentations and inspiring mostly, but yeah, the engineers, the backend engineers have done their work in instrumenting. We're still not 100% there. There are some applications that have been instrumented, some not, but the mindset have shifted and everyone want to do it, but the priorities are different for everyone. So that's why it's good to have support from management always.

So they're the ones that are pushing this forward, where you cannot be always going to someone and telling, please, instrument, instruments from instrument, you know, it needs to be like a bigger movement that comes from a bit higher than us.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think, I think that's really key. I mean, yes, the individual contributors are the ones who are going to do the work, but if they don't feel like their support from up above, what's in it for me, like, versus, you're gonna do this.

IRIS: Yeah, because we have roadmaps plans that we need to follow. We can just be like, oh, the Observability wants this. Let's do it.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah.

IRIS: It needs to go through the right channels.

ADRIANA: So are you finding...

IRIS: Sorry, no, I said, especially in big companies, that is like a lot of hierarchy.

ADRIANA: Yeah, that's so true. That's so true. And, yeah, and that's really important to keep in mind as well. The thing I was going to ask you is, are you noticing like benefits already from the instrumentation?

IRIS: Yes, we could see, we have some applications that have spans with 40,000 traces, with 40,000 spans, for example, and they get the level of information that they get now, it's a lot more detailed and troubleshooting is a lot easier. You can already see the issue. So because we are also testing our grounds with different vendors and how the information can be sent there and can be shown to our engineers, because of course, the open source backends can do a lot, but can only do so much. And yeah, we've shown a lot of value from the OpenTelemetry instrumentation together with the help from vendors and their support, obviously. Yeah, it's been amazing. You can really see a difference on the amount of information that is being shown and how easy it has been to troubleshoot to the point that we've been using OpenSearch as a backend right now, while we still have OpenTelemetry and even dashboards were built on spans because it has more information than metrics at some point.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah.

IRIS: So, yeah, in a way or another, good or bad, it has provided a lot more than we had before.

ADRIANA: That's awesome. And, you know, when you're...because that one thing that I get from a lot of folks is some people get like, very overwhelmed by the sheer amount of data. So how do you, like, how can you tell when, when there's an issue, how are you able to narrow in on the actual issue amongst the sea of spans? Because, like, you have the information, but how do you know where to look?

IRIS: Yeah, it's usually seeing the status codes of the span, seeing the duration. That's very manual, to be honest, until now, especially with, we're still using Jaeger UI and it doesn't provide a lot of, for example, you can search by tags, you can see where the error happened or which of the spans had the biggest duration, and maybe it will pinpoint you the right direction. But yeah, we're looking at solutions that are a little bit more better. For example, some architecture overviews, let's say, of the application and the spans, which is more obvious rather than you going and scrolling it just shows it right there. We're focusing mostly because the visualization layer is only so much that we can do in terms of open source. So we want to kind of leverage another tool to do that for us. So we're focusing on getting, transporting the right data there so it is shown properly and it makes it easier for our engineers to troubleshoot.

ADRIANA: Cool. So then that means again, you're taking advantage of like the OpenTelemetry superpower through the Collector, where you can send the same data to multiple sources, right?

IRIS: It's a lifesaver. If anyone is listening to this and they're wondering if they should use OpenTelemetry, it's amazing. You don't even have to touch your current architecture and you can leave it running on production and you can have a full separate better one running on the side just by using OpenTelemetry. And at the same time you are building this amazing architecture and you can decommission the old one without your users even noticing anything. It's amazing.

ADRIANA: Yeah, that's awesome. I love that so much about OpenTelemetry is the flexibility. Another thing that I want to ask you about is Collector usage. How do you end up having a bunch of different Collectors? If you're able to talk about that, what's the Collector setup that you work with?

IRIS: Well, I can talk about it. We're currently, because our metrics and logging are still not there yet. We're still working on it. But yeah, we already have a deployment, but we're already deploying a daemon set on all our Kubernetes clusters to collect all our information and probably running another deployment as well. The plan is always to use because of the amount of data. It's a very big company. We even want to use one Collector per Observability pillar. One for tracing, one for logging, one for metrics.

It will just make it easier for us to know where the issue is and it will not be a single point of failure, for example, if something happens, because it could, we don't want all our signals to be down. So it's good to keep them separate. So yeah, we're leveraging everything, deployments, daemon sets, everything that's in there.

ADRIANA: Awesome. Yeah, and I agree. I think that's great that you're doing like different Collectors per signal because exactly of what you said, like you. And also I think it makes it a little bit easier to kind of like manage the data, you know, so you can isolate problems if you run into problems. And so like it sounds then like you're running most of your Collectors out of Kubernetes. Are you using the OTel Operator for that?

IRIS: Not yet. It's in the plans, but not yet. I'm a big fan of the OTel Operator. Currently we're just using the Collector, the normal Collector.

ADRIANA: Oh, okay. Gotcha, gotcha. Yeah, I find the Operator very exciting and I remember discovering it by accident and I'm a huge fan and I try to contribute to documentation around the Operator whenever I learn something new.

IRIS: Yeah, yeah. In my mind and I think in our plans, I think we in the team are in sync when it comes to this. We want to use everything that OpenTelemetry has offered and whatever it is building, including the Operator, auto instrumentation, which is great and makes life easier for everyone. So yeah, it's a process, of course, because it's a big company and things that will be slowly. But yeah, we're going to use all of it and we're preparing for all of it. Yeah.

ADRIANA: And actually you mentioned auto instrumentation. What it is, are you contending with like, are there multiple languages for like the applications at your company and if so, then like are you taking advantage? Are the languages available, the ones that have like auto instrumentation, like built in.

IRIS: The main languages that we're using? Yes, there are some corner cases that are not, but we're already preparing to create our own instrumentation there, maybe even contributed to open source or if we think that it's not good enough, just have it still use auto instrumentation, but with our own library, the in house.

ADRIANA: Cool. That's awesome. And for the auto instrumentation, because one piece of feedback that I've heard from some folks who are using auto instrumentation is usually around, like sometimes it spews out too much information. Has that been the case for like, is that something that you've experienced or you, are you satisfied so far with the amount of data?

IRIS: Yeah, currently we're preparing for it, but we're not using. But I did use it in my previous company and we were very satisfied with the amount of data. We didn't really have issues. We did see that, for example, some information was collected twice, once by our current infrastructure that we hadn't decommissioned yet, and once by the OpenTelemetry Collector. So it became a bit overwhelming. But that wasn't really the, the library's fault. It was us trying to figure out how the data, like, what to decommission and whatnot without causing any incidents to our consumers. But yes, so far from my experience with it, I haven't had any issues in the amount of data.

ADRIANA: And what about. Because you said you're mostly focused on traces, so I'm assuming there's like some plans to bring in metrics, I would assume metrics. Next store. Is it logs? Are you planning on logs at all?

IRIS: Like, we're actually doing both. We're doing everything at the same time. So, yeah, the whole team is actually. Yeah, we are in a big movement. I'm very proud to say that, that our team is like, in the movement to modernize and to use the latest technologies and OpenTelemetry is it. So we are putting a lot of strength and a lot of manpower into it, doing investigations, thinking what to do, how to roll it out. It's a movement.

ADRIANA: And have you found yourself in the position where, like, you know, you need some guidance from folks in OTel on how to implement this? Or like, found an issue with an implementation, like, have you, and if so, what have you done to resolve that?

IRIS: Yeah, I've had issues, actually. I think it was a few weeks ago, I had some issues that I couldn't find the solution of, but I just searched on Google. That's my first place. I only searched on Google. And I think I went on a forum, an OpenTelemetry forum. Somebody else had had the issue and it was resolved. And it usually, I'm up to date because I am usually on the groups of, in Slack channels in OTel Collector.

So I read everything that happens there and I see all the errors. So if it's something interesting, it usually gets stuck in my mind. And if it happens to me, I'm like, wait, I've seen this. I know that it's. Yeah, it's so many users right now that it's very difficult to find issues that nobody else has had before that you are not able to. So that's another thing that I like very much right now. It makes your job easier, especially when you are trying to work fast and not spend like days and days investigating something. There's always an answer out there.

ADRIANA: Yeah, that's so true. I had a similar experience last week where I was trying to update some stuff in the Otel operator, there's a new version of for the Collector CR and, but there was like no documentation around it. So I'm like, and I'm like, I was trying to convert my YAML right to this, to this updated format and it was not working. And I'm like googling all over the place. I'm like, ah, crap, I'm gonna have to start. I'm gonna have to post a question on the operator channel. And like, and folks on the operator channel are super nice. So, you know, it's not that.

It was more like I didn't want to waste their time on something that like, has already been asked before. So I'm like, as a last ditch effort, I started searching their slack for like my one particular keyword and I'm like, oh my God. And I found someone had opened like a GitHub issue on that. I'm like, oh my God. I have the example I'm looking for. Thank goodness. And I was so happy. I'm like, yeah, I mean, the slack channels, honestly, like, there's so much info on there. It's great, it's great. Yeah.

IRIS: I love the community. OpenTelemetry community. I've never seen anything rude happening. Maybe there is very good admins as well, I don't know, but it's always very helpful. It's a great community to be in because I have been in other communities as well. And sometimes you're kind of afraid to post and ask because you will get judged. It doesn't, I haven't seen that happen here.

ADRIANA: Yeah, I agree. I'm scared every time I post a question. But everyone is always so nice regardless. Like, train my brain to like, stop. Chill out, man.

IRIS: Yeah.

ADRIANA: I've never like, on a pull request, I've never had anybody be absolutely nasty to me. Like, it's always very like polite things, even when like, you know, I completely misunderstand the concept. It's like, well, let me clarify for you, which is super nice, right?

IRIS: I had a situation actually a few weeks ago, a few months, honestly, I say weeks, but it could be a few months that I was just looking for tasks to contribute in documentation. So I said, I wrote that, okay, I'm going to do this. But at the moment I was busy, so I didn't have time. And someone else, the admin technologies and someone else posted the MR and they're like, okay, I did it now. And they actually tagged me and they said, Iris, are you comfortable with moving through with the, with their MR? You were the one who posted first. And we need to respect that you were actually volunteering and that was so nice. I know it was not with malicious intent by the other person that did the MR. Probably they saw the task and they did it without following the instructions.

But it was very nice by the admins to just check with me to make sure that things are done properly. That made me very, very happy. I'm like, okay, yeah, this is a great community to be in.

ADRIANA: Oh, that's such a nice story. I love that so much. And you know, like especially with the docs folks, they're so nice like, you know, it's very like because they have to walk a fine line, right. Of like making sure that you don't post anything that's vendor specific. So like they've, they've got to find, follow all these rules and ensure that you're following these rules and make sure that it's a respectful community. So I really appreciate, you know, the docs, maintainers do such a nice job of that generally of I've never seen, I've never had a negative experience and it's so nice to hear a story like that as well. I wanted to ask, because you're mentioning like contributing to docs, is there any other area where you've contributed to OpenTelemetry?

IRIS: No, I'm actually working on a project. I have started it for months now and I, because currently the Kafka receiver is for logging. It is only accepting the OTLP format. So I want to, I started to work with it maybe to make it compatible with some other formats because of personal reasons, personal professional that I need to do at my work. And we really wanted to make use of that, but it was impossible to have OTLP logging everywhere. So yeah, I'm working with that. But I haven't really made a lot of progress. Yeah, I'm a little bit slow on the contribution stage.

I like, I tell myself to feel better. Okay, you write blogs. It's okay, it's okay. It's some kind of contribution. You speak about it, some kind of contribution. But it's my goal that I want to be a very active contributor because I getting so much from the community and from work that other people are doing. So I'd like to give something back as well. So that's why I'm like practicing my goal skills to make good contributions.

So yeah, hopefully soon.

ADRIANA: Oh, it's so exciting. Yay. Yeah, that's great. And I think that's a really important point to underscore too because I think because OpenTelemetry has the backing of most of the major Observability vendors. It's kind of assumed that it means that those folks will be contributing. And I think a lot of vendors have dedicated teams that work on Otel because it's in their vested interest and it's in the community's best vested interest. But then there's the other side too, which is like the end users making contributions. And I think that's an important story to tell as well because, you know, ultimately the end users are the ones who are, who are using OpenTelemetry.

And so to have those contributions and making sure that there's a path in your organization to make those contributions as well is so super important because, you know, it sounds to me like there's no issue in like Miro letting you contribute to OpenTelemetry. But I know also like in, in some companies, like even just allowing developers contribute to open source is such a difficult process. Right.

IRIS: That's very interesting actually. I've never come across a situation like this because open source is open source. But yeah, I can imagine that there is cases like that.

ADRIANA: Yeah, I think like the very corporate places like banks and stuff can be very, very protective of open source contributions. Not because like they don't dig it. I think it's more from like security concerns and so whatever, whatever concerns that they have around that. So it's just nice, and it's, it's nice working in a place where that obviously security concerns are concerns for everyone, but it's nice to work at a place where there are low barriers for contributing to open source.

IRIS: Yeah. The way I see it, if you are using open source, then you should be allowed to contribute to open source. Because even for example, if you build, let's say an OpenTelemetry receiver, something new that hasn't been done before and you want to contribute it to the community. I don't, I really don't see how that could be a concern to just keep it for, for yourself because you are already using code that is public. You know, this is going to be public as well. I don't understand.

ADRIANA: But yeah, yeah, I agree with you and that's a really important point. Like you're using the open source like you're benefiting from other people's work. And so, you know, you should, I'm not saying like everybody has to contribute to open source, but at least make it like if you're an organization and you are benefiting from open source, don't make it such a huge barrier for contributing, to allow your, your employees to contribute back to the tools that they are taking advantage of.

IRIS: Absolutely.

ADRIANA: Yeah, I know we are coming up on time. So as we wrap up, I wanted to ask if there are any words of wisdom or hot takes that you would like to share with our audience.

IRIS: Well, I would like to speak to all the engineers in the companies that they should be a little bit nicer to their Observability engineers.

ADRIANA: I love it.

IRIS: We want to collect all the data, but unfortunately, it's very expensive. It's very difficult to process it. Also, sometimes we have to make decisions to collect some, to drop some, and to put guidelines in place. Trust me, we want to collect everything, but we just cannot. So be nice to your Observability engineers and cooperate, and you're going to build an amazing Observability platform.

ADRIANA: That's awesome. And that's a really excellent point. Remember the humans behind the work that is being done. It's not just magic. It feels like magic, but it's not. That is super awesome. Well, thank you so much, Iris, for geeking out with me today. Y'all don't forget to subscribe and be sure to check the show notes for additional resources and to connect with us and our guests on social media. Until next time...

IRIS: Peace out and geek out.

ADRIANA: Geeking Out is hosted and produced by me, Adriana Villela. I also compose and perform the theme music on my trusty clarinet. Geeking Out is also produced by my daughter, Hannah Maxwell, who, incidentally, designed all of the cool graphics. Be sure to follow us on all the socials by going to bento.me/geekingouthe.

About our guest:

Carmen Huidobro (she/her) is a developer advocate and dev education enthusiast originally from Chile and based in Austria. She thrives on lifting others up in their tech careers and loves a good CSS challenge. Always excited to talk about teaching tech, especialmente en Español, oder auf Deutsch.

Find our guest on:

• LinkedIn
• X (Twitter)
• Mastodon
• YouTube
• Instagram
• Twitch

Find us on:

• All of our social channels are on bento.me/geekingout
• All of Adriana's social channels are on bento.me/adrianamvillela

Show notes:

• Marino Wijay on Geeking Out (Episode 24)
• Marino's Tweet on cool folks to have on podcasts
• Adriana's invite to those folks to join Geeking Out
• iPhone 3GS
• Blackberry Smartphone (early 2000s)
• Motorola Razr (original)
• Motorola StarTAC
• LG Chocolate
• The Matrix (movie)
• Liquid cooler for PC
• MS-DOS
• SAP (software company)
• ABAP (programming language)
• Dynamic-link Library (DLL)
• Objective C (programming language)
• Smalltalk (programming language)
• Hackers (movie)
• Backbone.js
• Carmen at DevOps Days NYC 2023
• DevCraft Academy
• The Programmer's Brain, by Felienne Hermans
• Hedy (programming language)
• Tabs vs. Spaces: Its an Accessibility Issue
• Docs for Developers, by Jared Bhatti, Sarah Corleissen, Jen Lambourne, David Nuñez, Heidi Waterhouse
• GreenSock Animation Platform (GASP)
• Hacktoberfest
• Columbo (TV Show)

Additional notes:

• Bad Website Club
• Upcoming Speaking Engagements
• Adriana's O'Reilly Video Course: Fundamentals of Observability with OpenTelemetry

Transcript:

ADRIANA: Hey, fellow geeks! Welcome to Geeking Out, the podcast about all geeky aspects of software delivery, DevOps, Observability, reliability, and everything in between. I'm your host, Adriana Villela, coming to you from Toronto, Canada. And geeking out with me today is Carmen Huidobro. Welcome, Carmen.

CARMEN: Thank you so much for having me. Hey everybody, all listeners. It's an absolute joy to be here.

ADRIANA: I am so excited to have you on. And, you know, it's really cool how I got you on the podcast was because I think Marino Wijay did a shoutout of, like, all amazing people that should...he did a Tweet about like, oh, these are some awesome people that you should totally have on your podcast. I'm like, awesome. And your name was on there. And so I replied to that tweet. I'm like, anyone on that list, like, let me know. DM me. You can be on the podcast.

CARMEN: Honestly, like, I'm so grateful to Marino and also you for, like, laying down that growndwork. I don't know what was what I was thinking that day. I was feeling like, oddly bold. Is like, because I saw, I saw your post and I was like, you know what? I am going to reach out to her and just sort of like, very bravely be like, hey, I'd love to.

ADRIANA: I am so glad that you did. I love it when, when people take me up on, on my offer. So.

CARMEN: Yeah, no, I appreciate it.

ADRIANA: Yay. Well, as, as we start off, are you ready for the lightning round lightning slash not really lightning round questions?

CARMEN: Awesome. Let's go.

ADRIANA: Okay. All right, first question. Are you a lefty or a righty?

CARMEN: I'm a righty, but I was born a lefty. But, like, so I was growing up in Chile at the time, and my....so, like, my grandmother did not like it and she was, like, forcing me to, like, try and, like, write with my right hand. So, like, I do some stuff sort of lefty, but, like, 90% righty.

ADRIANA: Oh, okay. So your, like, brain was retrained on, on the rightiness. Ooh, cool, cool. Yeah, my mom. I'm a lefty. My mom was also a lefty. And she was forced to do things left-handed [NOTE: should be right-handed] by some angry nuns. And she...but she was like one of those, like, you can't take the lefty out of me. And she just couldn't, like, as much as the nuns tried to do it, she just. Nope, not. Not happening.

CARMEN: So they try. And they tried to train her out of being a lefty, right?

ADRIANA: They did. They did. And it did not work. Yeah, they...Because I think, like, she would hold her fork with her left hand, and they're like, nope. And so. So they make her sit in the cafeteria trying to eat with her right hand.

CARMEN: Yeah.

ADRIANA: And if she didn't, she would, like, either not eat or whatever, like, if there was some sort of punishment or I think she missed recess because she was stuck at the cafeteria, like, trying to eat with her right hand. And so she was, like, thoroughly traumatized. So for her, it was like, almost. Almost like the visceral reaction of, like, nope, I'm a lefty for life on all the things.

CARMEN: Yeah, yeah, no, I mean, kind of. I mean, I wasn't at school when they were doing this, but, like, my...my grandmother was very, very adamant about, like, nope, she has to be a righty.

ADRIANA: Thou shalt be righty. All right, next question. Do you prefer iPhone or Android?

CARMEN: You know, I alternate because I'm undecided and boring. But I started out as a Mac developer, so, like, there is a sort of, like, propensity to stick with, like, Apple products. So I'm currently on an iPhone 12 Mini, and I'm kind of annoyed about it because, like, it's the last...no, it's the second last mini they made, and I have small hands. I don't understand why phone manufacturers don't like people with small hands. Bring back the Mini.

ADRIANA: I know. I love the size of the Mini.

CARMEN: Right? So, like, yeah, I. And I have to get a new phone soon because this one's starting to run out of battery and, like, I don't know what to get. How about you?

ADRIANA: I am...I've had an iPhone since the 3GS.

CARMEN: No way. That was my first phone.

ADRIANA: Yeah. Yeah. So before that I had a BlackBerry, and before that I had an LG Chocolate, which I adored. It was one of those, like, do you remember the slider phones?

CARMEN: Yeah, totally.

ADRIANA: And, like, you know, they became, like, really popular because of the Matrix. And it was like, it was cute. It looked like a little candy bar. It was, like, tiny in your hand. And I adored that phone. And then, you know, blackberries came out, and I loved my BlackBerry until it started to spontaneously shut off in the middle of phone calls. And then I got really angry, and so we. We retaliated and bought iPhones.

CARMEN: Fair enough. Fair enough. I had a Motorola Razr. I don't know if you're familiar, like.

ADRIANA: Oh, my God, those were beautiful.

CARMEN: I love those. I miss it, honestly.

ADRIANA: Yeah. Yeah. Those were beautiful phones. I mean, even, like, it's predecessor, like, you remember the StarTAC?

CARMEN: Oh, my God. Yes.

ADRIANA: Like, I mean, at the time, I'm like, oh, my God, this is like the coolest phone ever. You know, especially, like, I carried around this. It was like a Sanyo brick phone, which at the time was like, oh, this is so tiny compared to those, like, really big ass phones that fortunately I never had.

CARMEN: Oh, yeah.

ADRIANA: I'm not that old.

CARMEN: Oh, gosh.

ADRIANA: Phone memory lane. Awesome. Okay, next question. Do you prefer Mac, Linux, or Windows?

CARMEN: So I recently, like, I like to...so I have a PC that I built back in 2018. Like the first PC I ever built, and I love it to bits, but it was getting too slow. So I did something very, very wild for me, which, I mean, it doesn't sound that wild. I installed a liquid cooler into it, right. Which is a lot more, which is a lot more complex than it sounds. It's really just sort of like, you know, doing, putting in some parts and plugging stuff in. It wasn't nearly like, as complex as it sounds.

CARMEN: But what that means is that, oh, my gosh, I'm motivated to work on my PC again. So I got on back on Linux and I missed it. Honestly, I'm really enjoying working on Linux right now. But I started out as a Mac developer, so it has a soft spot in my heart. Windows exists. I use it, you know.

ADRIANA: Yeah. I feel, you know, I. It's funny, I have Windows PTSD because I used it for so long.

CARMEN: Yeah.

ADRIANA: And in, under such corporate settings that I have, like, this very negative association with Windows, even though, like, Windows was my...I guess my first operating system was DOS, but Windows was my first, I guess, like proper GUI...yeah...OS. I just, I cannot, like, you know, I should feel some nostalgia for it, but I honestly, I feel PTSD for it. And Macs kind of represent, like, you know, phase two of my career where I've, like, it's the enlightenment of my career where I've moved away from the corporate-y mindset.

CARMEN: Oh, I so feel you because I'm actually in that right now. I...last...no, earlier this year, I started consulting with an SAP consultancy. Do you know SAP?

ADRIANA: My husband works in SAP? Like that. That is his career. Yes, yes, yes. Like 20...I want to say 28 years doing SAP. Like, ABAP performance tuning. Like, that is his jam.

CARMEN: I mean, I don't know if you've ever taken. Absolutely. Like, I appreciate it because I'm, like, I started consulting with him, but, like, working on them, bringing sort of like, my developer relations and developer education site aspect to it. But I've also you know been picking up at ABAP and SAP GUI and all that stuff and like good golly what a completely different world that is. And like, and of course that means that I need to have a Windows machine because like you know it's completely like...what do you mean Linux? What do you mean open source? Like, you know? And like so I've been just rediscovering Windows in a corporate context and like, it hits different.

ADRIANA: It does hit different. Yep, yep, yep. But the Windows salvation is the Windows Subsystem for Linux.

CARMEN: Yes, yes. In fact like when I built my PC like a long time ago I was like you know what, I'm going to work with WSL. Like you know, Windows Subsystem for Linux. And I loved it. I still do and whatever, like whenever like I'm onboarding folks like if they're getting new to, if they're new to programming and they're like you know starting out, I love to like very, very gently...I'm not a, I'm not some kind of like adamant person who's like oh, you have to do this. But I'm definitely like, you know if you're having trouble installing node on your machine, have you heard of Windows Subsystem for Linux? You know, that sort of thing?

ADRIANA: Yeah exactly, exactly. Yeah. The last time I had a Windows machine the first thing I did was install WSL.

CARMEN: Absolutely, same here.

ADRIANA: Yeah it's, yeah I mean it's, it's, it's a whole other experience. It makes Windows a kinder, gentler.

CARMEN: Oh absolutely. And like honestly like I'm very grateful it exists because it gives folks an opportunity to you know get into programming a lot easier or like you know get antiquated...to get antiquated, is that the term? Familiar with? Yeah, acquainted. That's what I wanted to say. With, with these kind of tools that you know folks are working with on a day to day basis but like a lot more accessible. You know my...I had a client that I used to work with. I've done a ton of freelancing in my career and like one of my favorite client experiences was this was a client in gastronomy for like local businesses and like the business, the industry area of Vienna and we were doing like lunch...like you know like corporate lunch for them and stuff like the gastronomy and like catering and all that stuff. And my job was to build their POS, or point of sale system, right? And of course every, every office that they would deliver to would have a different kind of thing.

And like I was doing a lot with like thermal printers and stuff for their like receipts and stuff, you know. By the way, thermal print, you know, thermal printers, right? Like, I never occurred to me that they don't use ink, but in fact they burn the paper. Like how metal is that?

ADRIANA: I know, right?

CARMEN: It's like, oh, absolutely. And like the protocol for like printing to them like this, like the one we use was the ESC POS protocol for printing is so versatile. It's kind of cool. Anyway, and I wrote a system that like worked very nicely with like Linux and like writing to like writing over serial to the, to the USB, to the USB port on the, on the printer itself. And that was all well and cool. And then my clients like, cool, well this client has a Windows machine, so we should just...like a Windows POS...we should just do it with that. And I was like, oh yeah, no problem. I'm sure, like writing to, writing to like, you know, ports on Windows is going to be completely easy. And like 48 hours of like reading C documentation for like win DLL or something. I was like, maybe I'm not a programmer after all.

ADRIANA: Oh my God, the DLLs crap. I remember those.

CARMEN: I never, I never, I never wrote one. Like, we ended up giving up and like, I think what we ended up in doing in the end was the most like hacky thing in the world, which was like, let's just buy a Raspberry PI and send it data over wifi. And hey, it works. And that still being used to this day. Oh, yeah, yeah, no, it was great. I love that. I love...I gave a talk about that at a Ruby conference. It was a lot of fun.

ADRIANA: That's awesome. That sounds like such a great solution.

CARMEN: Oh, it's super fun.

ADRIANA: All right, next question. What's your favorite programming language?

CARMEN: Oh, no. Okay, I do have an answer. So I mentioned I started out as an Objective-C...I just gave it away. I started out as a Mac developer, and at the time, not to age myself, uh, the, the only programming language for macOS was Objective-C. And I don't know if you know Objective-C. It's weird. It's got a...it's got an odd syntax.

You send mess...like, you don't send messages using a full stop, you know, as you would like, you know, object dot method. Instead you do it with square brackets. So like, square brackets, object message, if you want to like use that as a parameter, no problem. Just surround it with more square brackets and you can end up with like an, in, like an inception of, like, several square brackets, and, like, it gets a lot of...

ADRIANA: Oh, my God.

CARMEN: And it gets a lot of criticism for having an odd syntax. It's still SmallTalk-like. But the reason it's my favorite programming language is because I now jokingly say, like, I started out in Objective-C. Nothing can hurt me now. And, like, it taught me to be flexible. It taught me to, like, appreciate, like, object orientation. Like, you know, the base, the essentials of SmallTalk and that sort of thing, and really grateful for it. But, you know, after that, I don't know. I think I associate programming languages with, like, stages of my career or my life because...

ADRIANA: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I can definitely see that. Totally.

CARMEN: So, you know, after that, I was a...Like, all of our tooling for our apps and objectives were written in Ruby because my client was a big fan of, you know, of ruby on rails. And this was, like, early 2010. And so I went into ruby on rails, and I love Ruby. Like, especially, like, the european Ruby community has such a special place in my heart that, like, I. Because, like, right after, like, getting into that, then I started feeling a little bit isolated as a. As a. As a freelancer.

And then I sort of started, like, I'm a. Okay, believe it or not, I'm a shy person. And, like, I started, like, dipping my toes into, like, going to meetups and stuff, but it was very intimidating. And, like. Like, Objective-C. I think the German language gets a bad rap because it's, like. Like, especially for, like, you know, myself. I come from, like, a romance language.

I come from Spanish. And, like, yeah, German is hard to learn, but I think it, like, I think it gets...I don't know, there's a certain beauty to its modularity, for example, that, like...

ADRIANA: I agree with you. I totally agree with you. I think German is so...German is so beautiful.

CARMEN: I agree 100%. Like, don't get me wrong, it's hard. It's got its rules. Like, you know, articles, you know, the der, die, das...like, for. For assigning to nouns is difficult.

ADRIANA: Oh, my God. Yes, yes, right?

CARMEN: I gave up.

ADRIANA: Honestly, just make shit up as you go along.

CARMEN: Look, people are gonna know what you mean, like, regardless of the language and all of that, but, like. Anyway, so the meetups were, like, super intense and very, like. I mean, you. You know, if you. If you're familiar with, like, the tech scene, especially in, like, German speaking countries, there's this. There's this, like, sort of not anarchistic per se, but there's a very, like. Like, hacker. Like, are you familiar with that sort of German hacker culture? You know, like the, they call it the demo scene.

They do, like, lots of, like, graphics and music stuff, and it's very, like, anti authoritarian and that sort of thing. And, like...

ADRIANA: Right, right. Kind of, kind of like in the Hackers movie, that kind of vibe.

CARMEN: Oh, I was a complete side note, I was at EMF camp a few weeks ago, and, like, they have a, which is like a nerdy camping event, but with WiFi and electricity and, like, all of that stuff and talks. Actually, I gave a workshop on how to get into public speaking and tech speaking at that event a few weeks ago. It was good fun. I'm not a very good camper, but regardless, they show that movie every time.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

CARMEN: And they have the director there for a Q&A, which is pretty cool.

ADRIANA: What? Yeah, I, you know, that movie has a special place in my heart. Like, my husband and my daughter hate it. I'm like, but it's so bad. It's good. Come on.

CARMEN: I thoroughly enjoyed my time watching it, but I kind of just shocked myself. Favorite programming language. So, like, Ruby. Like, I started going to the Ruby meetup and, like, very quickly got on boarded into, like, Rails Girls. Rails Girls, Summer of Code, and, like, lots of, like, you know, more sort of like humanitarian stuff related to code. And so, like, I did a lot of that with Ruby for a couple of years. And then a couple years ago, my friend and I, my friend Jess and I started teaching JavaScript and HTML and, like, you know, especially when I talk to folks who do, like, more backend or low level programming, and they go like, ugh, JavaScript is weird. And I was like, I know, isn't it great? I have a soft spot. A soft spot for it. And then, like, I started getting integrated into the Rust community. And, like, at least here in Europe, they're also wonderful. I don't know, maybe I, maybe my favorite programming languages are associated to the respective communities.

ADRIANA: I mean, and that's such a great association to make. Like, you know, you have a nice community and you feel like it inspires you to learn more because you like the people around it. Right? And I think it's funny you mentioned Ruby because I've had a number of people on the podcast who are big fans of Ruby, and... everyone talks about the Ruby community.

CARMEN: I mean, they are pretty great.

ADRIANA: Can't beat that. Can't beat that.

CARMEN: I'm curious, may I ask what's yours right now?

ADRIANA: I would say Python. So I was a longtime Java developer, 15 years. So I got on the Java bandwagon, like in the late '90s, early 2000s...so when Java was pretty new. I was like, I got onto it because my dad is, he's a retired software architect. He learned Rust for fun last year. He just made, like, we were chatting on the phone. He made his first contribution to, what is the Rust library thing called? Not the package manager. Like the library, like where people, like, where people put their, like their homegrown libraries.

CARMEN: Crates. crates.io

ADRIANA: Yes, that's it. Yes. He published his first Crate last week. I'm like, and my dad's turning 71.

CARMEN: That's amazing.

ADRIANA: So, yeah, but I got into Java because of my dad. My dad got into SmallTalk when SmallTalk was like, the thing, and then it was like, Java, Java, Java. Now he's like, Java is an anti-pattern because object-oriented programming is an anti-pattern. And then he would...he did Go for a while. Now he's like, I hate Go. Rust. Rust is where it's at.

CARMEN: I mean, you know, that's something I find so liberating about programming languages and technologies in general is that, you know, opinions come and go. Like best, best practices come and go. And like, I find being able to like, recognize patterns and like, bring over knowledge and even use that prior knowledge to challenge current knowledge. So helpful. The one I always think about is, you know, I was doing lots of Ruby on Rails and then like, I kind of missed like the major hype of single page applications. Like, I did a little bit of Backbone.js, if you're familiar, like way back when, which was like one of the first, one of the first like single page application frameworks and stuff. And then like, but when I started really getting into stuff like React and Vue and all of that, everyone's like super excited about server side rendering. It's the future.

It's here. And I'm like, wait, we stopped doing that? And, you know, like, things come and go. Like, everyone in, like, a lot of folks in like the Next.js world are super excited about like RPCs and TrPCs. And I'm like, do y'all mean remote procedure calls? Because like, don't get me wrong, they're fantastic. Like, I didn't know they were gone, you know?

ADRIANA: So true. Yeah. It is very cyclical. Yeah, I think, like, programming languages, like, you know, it's also a thing, like, the thing I hear a lot with them is like, my favorite programming language is the one that I'm using right now, which is cool. It's like, yeah, whatever. I'm down to learn new languages, because what I. It's exactly what you said. You, like, you start to recognize patterns between languages.

And I think that's one of the things that I enjoy about learning new languages is like, oh, how is the thing done in this compared to the thing done here? Right? Yeah, and, yeah, I mean, and I think it's that process of discovery and then learning the nuances and then the...this language does this so poorly. I love how this language does that, and I think that's...that's what I love. It's that discovery of programming languages for the first time. It's like falling in love for the first time.

CARMEN: Absolutely. And then that excitement of, like, how something is done, and then you bring it back to your programming language. One of my favorites is when Objective-C introduced blocks, which are anonymous functions, right? And subjectively, the syntax is pretty gnarly for them. Like, I know, like, what are the...what are the...what's that sign....the...the little arrow that goes, is it a caret? The one that goes....

ADRIANA: Yeah, the yeah, right, yeah, like that. Right?

CARMEN: Yeah, but it's. It's. It's upwards.

ADRIANA: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's.

CARMEN: Yeah, I think that's a caret as well. Could be wrong, but I think it is a caret. Yeah, yeah, most, I think so. Yeah. But, like, it's. It's pretty garly. It involves one of those. It involves ampersands. It involves, like, like, curly bracket. It's pretty, like, doesn't...curly brackets doesn't sound that bad. But anyway, it's pretty weird. So much so that for a very long time, I looked it up recently. It doesn't exist anymore. There was a website called effing blocks, which all of its purpose is to remind folks how to do block syntax in Objective-C because it was that weird. And I love that. That sort of, like, not spite per se, but like, that sort of joyful, like, oh, God, I need to reach for it again. Sort of thing that I just find.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love stuff like that.

CARMEN: Yeah.

ADRIANA: There's a place that I can go to to remind me how to do x.

CARMEN: Absolutely.

ADRIANA: I'm all for it.

CARMEN: Awesome.

ADRIANA: Okay, our next question. Do you prefer Dev or Ops?

CARMEN: Ooh. So I've spent most of my careers in dev, so, like, my heart will always be in dev, but, like, I've recently started dipping my toes more and more into ops. And, like, I have a very, very solid appreciation for it. And, like, again, I'm gonna sound like a broken record. Y'all are so nice like, the community is so sweet and I just like inviting. Like, I spoke at my, my first DevOps event last year. It was a DevOps DevOps Days New York and it was just such an incredible event. And folks are so, like open minded and like inviting and like, so thoughtful and so provocative in a good way as well.

Like, I really enjoyed my time there and I feel like I'm learning a lot. It's like, it's just like rediscovering a new aspect of career. It's kind of like picking up a new programming language. Like, you're just sort of like picking up new things. And like, I think there's a lot of consideration and considerable work being done there that, like, I'm finding myself really drawn to.

ADRIANA: Yeah, that, that's such a great way of putting it because I think, like, for me, DevOps was, it was like a milestone in my career.

CARMEN: Yeah.

ADRIANA: Like, it was. I, for me, it was a turning point because it was where I'm like, oh, I like infrastructure stuff, but I also like coding and I can do both? What?? It was like...🤯

CARMEN: And like, just, just the thought that just the fact that, like, so much, so much, like really good tooling is being made to make this more accessible for folks. Like, for me, onboarding is always a question with this sort of thing. It's both like, it's double edged sword. And like, I find that as folks, like, especially in the ops communities like are taking all of these steps to make these tools, make all of this, like, all this learning that we had to do in one way or another, perhaps more painstakingly than others, more accessible, is something that I'm finding really compelling.

ADRIANA: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the fact that we've been able to transcend beyond bash scripting, right? Which, I mean, I love a good bash script, don't get me wrong, but I definitely appreciate all this other tooling that is now available for our convenience.

CARMEN: Semi related. Like, it's funny you mentioned that because like sort of related to Windows and shell scripting, I had to build a...so, like, one of the things that I do at my main job at DevCraft Academy is like give folks training in reviewing pull requests and like giving like kind, thoughtful, constructive, not necessarily nice, because nice is like superficial, but like kind for me is like really pushing towards, like this is great. This is how it can be better. So I'm like really pushing for a lot of that stuff. And one of the things that happened especially like, as folks are getting more experience in, like, contributing actively to teams, is giving your files and folders names that are not going to make Windows explode because Windows is pretty strict, uh, conventions for how you name your files. So. Okay, no problem. I'll just, like, add a little, like, existing GitHub action that, like, validates those names.

But it turns out, like, the thing I need didn't really exist. So I was like, well, guess I'm going to have to write my own. And I had to dip my toes into shell scripting for this. And good golly, did I struggle. And at the end, like, my client was like, why don't you just make a Ruby script for it? I was like, that's an option. Oh, goodness. And then it took five minutes.

ADRIANA: I feel. Yeah, yeah, there, there were a few instances where I'm like, you know, on the path towards creating, like, this horrible shell script, and then I'm like, I can do it in Python.

CARMEN: Exactly. I mean, isn't that one of the most wonderful things about tech, is that you have these tools available and, like, you have the right, like, I don't know, something I've been thinking about a lot lately. Kind of a side note is that, like, when we're introducing folks to, like, tech in general, and, like, we sort of, like, build up this sort of image, not, not on purpose. I don't think, and definitely not maliciously, that there is a perfect learning path that they have to take, or there's like, learn this, this, this and this, and you're good in this exact order. And, like, unfortunately, whether we like it or not, there's no set path because if there was, it'd be documented, right?

ADRIANA: Yeah.

CARMEN: So, and I feel like one of the things that I would love to, like to communicate more and want to do a better job at communicating is that, like, look, there's never going to be a perfect tool for a job. It's going to be the one that works best for you, like, working solo or working with your team. There's going to be the one that works best for y'all. For example, writing a script, gonna be Python for you, gonna be Ruby for me. And that's like, neither is wrong.

ADRIANA: Exactly.

CARMEN: Like, in most circumstances, if they're like, I don't know, running something on some embedded thing that only works on Python. Sure. Then your options are a little bit more limited. But, like, again, working within, working within your means and, like, picking the right tool for the job, I think is so much more important than, like, having, like, what is the most optimal tooling for the job.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah. I totally agree with you. And I think that speaks to it even makes me think actually about, that's how I feel about Agile.

CARMEN: Oh, yeah.

ADRIANA: Where I feel like we've especially generally, I think as an industry we've invested so much time in like the, the structure around Agile. And especially a lot of people equate Agile with Scrum even though Scrum is an approach to Agile.

CARMEN: Yeah.

ADRIANA: And, and I detest Scrum. I detest SAFe Agile because it's...it defeats the purpose of what Agile is, which is agility and fast feedback loops. And people get so caught up in the, you know, you have to do it this, this and this way that, and get caught up in the ceremonies that you end up completely forgetting the point of why you were doing this in the first place. And so what I've always found has worked really well. I've, where I've seen teams being really successful at Agile is when they pick and choose the things that work best for them. It's like, oh, Scrum has an interesting concept that, you know what, it works really well for our team. And maybe SAFe has a thing and maybe Kanban.

So then you pick and choose these different approaches and it's a choose your own adventure. And it's similar with like solving, you know, it's similar with like what you were saying around like learning paths there is there because people learn so differently. And what clicks well with one person won't click well with another person. We have visual learners, we have non visual learners. So what's going to, what's going to work best? And so of course, as you said, there's no, you can't say like this. This is the path or if you learn these tools that is going to take you to where you need to be because it, it may and may not.

CARMEN: I mean, to the point of like, you know, learning differently. I, I actually got pushback on that from. Do you, do you by any chance know somebody called Felienne Hermans?

ADRIANA: I don't.

CARMEN: Oh. So she wrote this fantastic book called The Programmer's Brain. Highly recommend it. She's a neuroscientist, I believe. Don't, don't quote me on that. But she does a lot of work around the neuroscience and like, you know how that works in programming. She's working on this programming language called Hedy which like is like put pushing back on monolinguism in that. Like you can write it in any spoken language you want.

ADRIANA: Oh, whoa. That's cool.

CARMEN: Right? So we had her on. On The Bad Website club for like you know, learning how to learn and all of that. And she was pushed...she...because I very...said, like, well, yeah, we all learn differently. And she goes like, actually we don't. I can't remember why, but I remember that pushback. So whatever I hear, like, we will learn. We all learn differently is like, wait a minute. Apparently we don't.

But like, I think there's a, there's something to be said for like the, the aspects of like, because I used to teach children to code and like, like, actually one of my favorite things I've ever done was, you know, I was never the best student, but one of like at university. But like, one of my favorite things I did was actually my bachelor thesis which I wrote about like my experience teaching children to code and comparing that with like, established research in the, uh, technical pedagogy for children. And like, there's these, there's these two, um, learning theories that, that exist. One is called constructivism and one is called constructionism. And I'm going to focus on the latter which says that our learning is modular, where we pick up different, like, let's say like Lego blocks and apply them and analogize, analogize, analogize. Compare them with those other pieces of knowledge and make them fit together, which if you think about it, goes back to what we're talking about, like, you know, recognizing patterns. And what I love about that is that it kind of gives a freedom of, for example, choosing your learning path. And then like, when we think about like, you know, how we learn and stuff.

And like, you know, when we do like developer relations and we create different types of content, you know, for example, we like a lot of, there's a lot of metrics that say, like, oh, short form video is super popular right now. And maybe written, like, written a, written content, not so much. Like, personally I prefer written content for learning, but, but there's aspects of video that are very helpful. But like, what I found is that like, people have their preferences, people have their own learning styles that they prefer. And like, having that flexibility is going to help you so much more. I went off on a tangent and I apologize.

ADRIANA: I love that tangent. And you know what? I'm going to go off on a similar tangent because you made me think of....so my daughter attended Montessori school for many years. Because...I'm like super jealous of her education because like, what I love about Montessori is that it really embraces, like, it's all about individualism, but it also teaches you to work as part of a community. And what I especially loved is so my daughter, our first parent teacher interview that I had with her teacher, and she started when she was three in Montessori, and she did it up, up until she turned 13. And her first parent teacher interview, her teacher's like, yeah, Hannah's not learning very well. And also, she stole a bunch of stuff from the classroom, like, oh, my God. My first parent teacher interview. My kids a klepto.

I'm sorry, Hannah. I know you edit this podcast. I hope I'm not embarrassing you. And then I'm like, oh, my God. So I'm, like, panicky. I'm like, went from proud parent to like, oh, my God. And then...and then...Hannah has a very unique learning style where she hates being told what to do.

Like, and I mean, like, everything's on her own terms. And her teacher, Cecile, who, like, we're still friends with to this day, because she cracked the Hannah code, she determined that in order to teach Hannah how to do something, she had to go and show it to one of Hannah's classmates. And then Hannah would walk over, like, learning by observing. Don't teach me. I will learn this way. And her teacher, Cecile, cracked the code. And basically...and then Hannah went through this phase, I think she was, like, four or five, where she decided she wanted to sew.

So she would, like, she sewed, like, gowns and stuff. Like, when she graduated kindergarten, she sewed her own, like, grad dress thing and her. And she was, like, full on obsessed with the sewing. And her teacher, Cecile, again, then, okay, you love the sewing. Let's incorporate other aspects into the sewing. How can we incorporate math? How can we incorporate, you know, science or whatever, like, things into the learning to help her learn. And so ever since then, it's really made me appreciate seeing how she grew up versus how I grew up, which was very, you know, like, very traditional. Like, I'm south american.

I've got, like, my. My mom had very, very distinct ideas of how. How I should learn. And, you know, I spent, like, a summer memorizing my times tables, because that is what you do.

CARMEN: Yep, I can relate. I have that.

ADRIANA: So, you know, as a result of that, it's really...she's opened my eyes to, like, how people. How people learn. And even, like, my husband is dyslexic, and I'm a fast reader, and being around him, I've had to, like, first of all, learn to slow down. I can't just, like, show him a thing. Here, read this right now. And he's like, I need a minute. But also recognize the fact that, like, even though, like, he doesn't let dyslexia get the best of him. He's found coping mechanisms.

So it's so fascinating to see how different people adapt to different situations, how they will learn things differently. And I think that's, like, the most magical thing. And that...yeah, I love that.

CARMEN: No, 100%. I just want to. Just want to clarify the face I made when you. When. When you told me that she had, like, don't tell me how to learn who. That hit, like, a very familiar nerve for me, of, like. I mean, that's the exact. That's why I say I wasn't the best student, because, like.

And, like, it was so fascinating to see, like, how differently I would approach. Because if a professor, like, a university would tell me, like, read this book and, like, spit out its contents on an exam paper, three months later, I'm like, right. The man doesn't tell me what to do. But if a client or, like, somebody or, like, you know, a higher up tells me, he's like, hey, you should read this book. It's really helped me with my career. I was like, thank you, I will. And I read it with gusto. And I'm like, I take notes and stuff.

I'm like. Then I look at it, I'm like, wait a minute, who am I? And, like, I know that's me. That, like, I have, like, you know, attitude and stuff. But, like, I do think it's really, like, I mean, that kind of helps us sort of, like, reframe as well. Like, how we approach these different problems and stuff. Like, reframing is such a powerful tool.

ADRIANA: Like, oh, my God. Yes.

CARMEN: Right? Like, not. Not fully related to learning, but, like, you know, I do a lot of talking about, like, pub...like, tech speaking and public speaking and that sort of thing. And, like, I, like, I will be very embracing of the fact that I get so nervous every time I go on stage, right? And, like, yep. Right? And, like, I help...I used...I used to help run this thing called Global Diversity CFP Day. CFP standing for, you know, call for proposals at conferences when they invite folks to propose their talks and stuff. And like, I just, like, I was like, you know what? I'm going to give a short presentation about getting nervous.

And, like, I just went on Twitter. This was like, gosh, I want to say, like, three years ago and just, like, gathered so much empirical evidence from folks of, like, how do you. How nervous do you get? How nervous do you get relative to when you're going up on stage and that sort of thing. And, like, something I found so magical. Like, there was one person who replied with, by saying, like, I've been speaking for 14 years and I get nervous every single time. I get...I increasingly get unbearable to be around the closer it's time for me to get up on stage.

But then they said, I...and I'm so grateful for the fact that I get nervous because I've reframed it as excitement, as caring. And if I'm not nervous when I'm going up on stage, it means that I don't care about what I'm presenting about and I'm gonna do a bad job. And I was like, whoa.

ADRIANA: Oh, damn! Oh, my God, I love that so much.

CARMEN: It's such a powerful reframing. And, like, I don't get me wrong, it's not about, like, lying to yourself or anything. I think it's just, like, about looking at the things that you experience in and, like, for example, learning and, like, how you...how you, you know, take things in and just, like, rethinking about how you approach them is so powerful.

ADRIANA: Yeah, I love that so much. Yeah. Because, I mean, I always get nervous before talks, and I've learned to just accept it, you know, and that's okay. And I also know myself well enough that, like, once I get up on stage and, you know, unwind a bit and I just get into the groove, and then it's like autopilot, and it's such a magical feeling to you when that kicks in.

CARMEN: It's the best. Like, I always, I always joke that it's like, you know, to get a little bit math nerdy. It's like a, it's like a tangent graph. Like a tan graph where it's, like, not nervous, not nervous. Super, super nervous. And then, like. And then I'm, like, in another plane of existence and, like, yes. Like, I know that my speaking style tends to be, like, very, like, engaging and, like, energetic and stuff.

And then people come up, it's like, oh, my God, you're so, like, don't get me wrong. I appreciate it. This isn't to, like, humble brag or anything. I have a point. But, like, you know, they'll come and be like, oh, my gosh, you're so energetic. It's so cool. Like, how do you do it? And I was like, yo, what you're seeing is, like, anxiety and adrenaline just, like, in human form.

ADRIANA: I can relate to that.

CARMEN: Right?

ADRIANA: Yeah. People are like, you're so peppy and, and then, you know, it's like when you said, like, you won't believe it, but I'm actually, actually, like, very shy. I'm like, I am too. I can so relate. And people, people meet me, they're like, oh, you're so outgoing. It's like, yeah. And then get me in a room full of people I don't know, and I'm the one, you know, in the corner texting. So texting a friend, going, oh, my God, help me.

CARMEN: That was me at my first meetup. I actually, I had a...I had...I had a little weird, like, let's call it a science experiment a few years ago where I, where I went to speak at a conference in Romania, in Bucharest. Had a really good time. They took such good care of me. But, like, I arrived, I, you know, earlier in the day, and I went out to find, get lunch. I was by myself, and, like, I realized I was being so...

I don't know what the term is. Shy, nervous, uncomfortable. Like, I felt uncomfortable even ordering food by myself. Right. And then, like, we went out first. Then was time for the speaker dinner. I kind of awkwardly went up to some folks at the, at the, in the hotel lobby that didn't really. They gave off that vibe as we don't really know anyone here, and we're gonna go to a speaker dinner, and, like, I want to introduce myself to them.

And then, like, we went to the speaker dinner after that. And, like, a couple of the folks I met were like, oh, I wonder where that guy got napkins. I could really use napkins, but I'm too shy to ask. And, like, don't ask me why. My brain, like, rewired itself. It's like, don't worry, I'll take care of this. And I go, it's like, excuse me, sir. Where did you get those napkins? Thinking back to the person, like, 3 hours, 5 hours ago who was too shy to order lunch, and I'm like, what's going on? Right? I don't know. It's weird.

ADRIANA: That's so cool. Yeah. It's funny how, like, certain things will trigger, like, I, you know, I think of myself at, like, conferences, right?

CARMEN: Yeah.

ADRIANA: Like, I am on, at conferences, I'm like, I put on the full on, like, extroverted thing, and then I look back at it and I'm like, who dat?

CARMEN: Oh, my God. I so feel that.

ADRIANA: Right? And sometimes, like, you're not even conscious of it. It's like something goes off and you're like, yep.

CARMEN: And, like, I gotta be honest, I still don't know. Like, I don't even know if I fall in any of the two categories of introversion versus extroversion. Like. Like, don't get me. I thrive on, like, being, like, being on, as you put it, because it's very similar for me. It's like I'm a different person when I'm in public versus I'm, when I'm at home, just, like, doom scrolling or something. But, like, it's. It's.

I don't know. I kind of like that. Don't get me wrong. I think...I think it's not that you're, like, personality is, like, fragmented or something, or it's just. Or anything like that, or that you're putting on a show. I think it's an aspect of your personality that just comes out in those situations, and it's extremely valid.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And what you mentioned earlier, too, like, why should we be put in a category of, like, you're either introverted or extroverted. Why. Why can't it be shades of gray? Like, everything else is shades of gray? There. There are seldom things that are binary. So, like, totally. Why not this?

CARMEN: Absolutely.

ADRIANA: Okay, we're almost done. Yeah, sort of done. No, we're not quite done. That's okay. This has been fun because, like, we've dug into, like, all the topics through. Through the...through these questions, so I'm here for it.

CARMEN: I love it. This is so much fun.

ADRIANA: Do you prefer JSON or YAML?

CARMEN: Oh, I have a YAML story. So I was building back in my Objective-C days, I was building a file renaming app. You drag in a bunch of files, you put in a set of actions, and then it would rename those files for you. It's pretty...it's a pretty complex app, and it's how I learned regular expressions, by the way. Super fun. But regardless, I needed to...these chains of actions that you would take to rename the files, insert these characters, put in numbers, find and replace all of this stuff.

I needed to store these somewhere, and I was like, oh, I'll just store these as YAML. For example, for find and replace, you could have any string you wanted. I was like, cool, we'll just put in, like, you know, if I put in a letter "y", I ran into trouble because YAML doesn't interpret the letter "y" as the letter "y". It interprets it as "true" now. And it gets wilder than that because, like, you might think, okay, well, then, like, don't use the letter "y". Fair. But the same goes for "ON", which is, correct me if I'm wrong, the..what's it called? The abbreviation for Ontario.

ADRIANA: Oh, yeah, yeah, that's right. That's right.

CARMEN: But in YAML, "on" is "true".

ADRIANA: Derp.

CARMEN: And there's a bunch of these that through this...through these...through these sort of, like, frustrations, I just switched over to JSON. I have to admit, it made my life significantly easier. So do I prefer one to the other?

ADRIANA: That was it for you? It's like, yep.

CARMEN: I have...I mean, don't get me wrong. Like, I'm a big, like, use the right tool for the...for the job. I love...I kind of have a soft spot for those quirks of YAML. Don't get me wrong, they're frustrating. But, like, I don't know, I just like. I just like it when a...I just like it when...when languages or technologies have their...there's a spanish word that I love called that. It's mañas. It's like... it's what makes you like. It's like when you're a picky eater, you're called mañoso or mañosa or mañose...it's like, it's quirk. A quirk. That's the term. A quirk.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah.

CARMEN: And I don't know, I find them endearing. So, like, in that. In that context, of course I prefer JSON, but, like, I don't know. I have a soft spot for YAML.

ADRIANA: Fair enough. Fair enough. That's awesome. I love that. I love that. That viewpoint on it. Okay. On a similar vein, do you prefer spaces or tabs?

CARMEN: Oh, oh, I prefer. So, I mean, I use spaces. Well, I mostly used spaces, but there's actually a reason to prefer tabs, and that is for accessibility.

ADRIANA: Ooh, tell me more.

CARMEN: Like, I cannot for the life of me recall what that article, but I read an article where somebody said, like, look, essentially the way, like, a screen reader or something is going to interpret tabs or spaces, it's gonna make more sense to have tabs. And I'm like, you know what? Fair enough. Because at the end of the day, a tab is a character, right?

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. A character that represents a chunk of space.

CARMEN: Exactly. And, like, that feels more, let's say, screen reader-ly honest than two to four spaces.

ADRIANA: Yeah. Huh. That's so cool. I have not looked at it from that perspective.

CARMEN: See if I can find the article, and I'll send it to you.

ADRIANA: Okay, cool. Cool. Yeah, that'd be awesome. Hopefully we can include that in our show notes. Okay, I think you answered this question in one of your earlier statements, but I will ask it formally. Do you prefer to consume content through video or text?

CARMEN: I think, yeah, no, I did kind of. There was somewhere in my rambling. It was there. I think I prefer text, but it really depends on, like, what I'm trying to do for, like, I don't know, like, I think I mentioned. Yeah, I did mention that, like, I installed a liquid cooler into my PC for that kind of thing. A video was much more helpful, but, like, for certain coach things, especially for, like, navigating. Navigating dashboards and that sort of thing, I don't know why I'm at dashboards. I don't know what's up.

Like, I feel like every time they. Every time, like, a dashboard gets updated, I'm like, am I bad at tech? So I find videos really helpful for helping me navigate dashboards and that sort of thing. But there's a balance to it. There's a really great book on documentation called Docs for Developers, and they mention, like, you know, having this versatility of content that I find really, really helpful. So it's...I know I'm...I know I'm tending to answer things where I don't really commit to one side or the other, but, like...

ADRIANA: No, no...I love it! I love hearing, like, the different, the different reasons for the different things. This is great. This is great. It's all the different perspectives. I appreciate it.

CARMEN: You're very kind. But, like, yeah, I think there's just nuances to this sort of thing that make, you know, make them more...more relevant for one or the other. I like talking about creating content, video or text.

ADRIANA: Ooh, I should add that one.

CARMEN: It's...let me tell you...I love live streaming. I love writing, like, prose or tutorials or guides and that sort of thing. I am so bad at videos and I don't know why because, like, I think the script has to go so perfectly. Like, did you do a lot of, like, did you pre record any talks during, like, when there were a lot of conferences were online?

ADRIANA: I wasn't doing talks at that point, but I have a recent experience...so this year I launched my video course on Observability through O'Reilly, and I had to do a lot of recording for that. Like, the whole thing is a video course. And, you know, I thought, okay, once I handed in my slides, like, it would be easy to record the video because I had all my speaker notes and stuff. Oh, my God, I can't tell you how hard it was to record the video for that. That was like, like the number of times I would, I would spend sometimes like an hour on one slide because I'd be, like, tripping over my words and I'd be like, so frustrating.

CARMEN: There's an, first of all, I feel you so much. Like, like, I just triple, like, I don't know why. Every time I have to record some video, like, I do some video courses for Egghead and like, every time I have to pre record a video, I'm always, I always naively think to myself, I can do this in one take, no problem. I do stuff in one take all the time. Not taking into consideration that I trip over my words constantly or like, I mess up and I just like, sort of just like blankly stare into space for a minute. I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, right. My friend Cassie Evans released a montage. She does, like, stuff with green...I believe with GreenSock Animation...CSS animation stuff.

And she released a montage of like, all of the time she's messed up and sworn at...like, let out a swear word. So much life. I love that we've all done it. Let's be honest.

ADRIANA: I can't tell you how many outtakes I have going, "motherfucker!"

CARMEN: Honestly, even for like, even for like a two minute video for like, I'm going to speak at a conference next month about like, dependency management that they're like, hey, do you mind, like, recording a two minute video for us? And I was like, well, there go 3 hours. Because I'm, because I'm just like, hi, my name is Carmen and damn it. Hi, my name is Carmen and I'm here to damn it. And like, it's just that...a bunch of, that. It's the worst!

ADRIANA: Yes, it is. I like...yesterday I was putting together a video to accompany a blog post that I'd written. I don't know why I thought, like, let's do a video too. Like, I find, I find video work challenging, as you mentioned. And it was similar thing, like a three minute video. It took me an hour to record it. And also I'm like, I don't need a script.

CARMEN: Oh, my God.

ADRIANA: And I really...I do need a script. I do. I'm sorry, me, but you do.

CARMEN: Like, so, like, I don't know, like with talks it's different. With talks, it's like, I don't need a script. I don't need like speaker notes. Like, I'm fine. I can just wing it. It's totally cool. Like, for some reason I just sort of like, come up with the script in my head. And don't ask me why, but I.

I like, it's. It's not so much a script. I like to call it a. A mental choreograph of how I give a presentation and, like, I don't know, timing and stuff. It's just all in there, but with a video, just not the same. And I don't know why. So weird!

ADRIANA: It ends up more robotic for some reason. Like, yeah, I look at myself in videos, especially, like, the one I did yesterday, thankfully, was a voiceover. But, you know, if you're doing a video with your face on it now, it's like, oh, my God, I've got resting bitch face, or, like I look like a robot or whatever. Right?

CARMEN: It's like, the silly thing about that is that we're the only ones looking at those aspects of ourselves, right? Because everyone else is, like, focused on the content.

ADRIANA: Yeah, it's true. Yeah. They're like, why. Why is their face there?

CARMEN: I'm not even that. They're just, like. Like, barely registering it. It's just like, yep, that's a face talking to me. It's not like. It's not like me where I'm looking at myself going, like, oh, God, my hair. Like, I look so sweaty. Oh, my God. You know, like that sort of thing.

ADRIANA: Yeah, I know. Yeah. We tend to be so self critical and...I don't have the answer for that...I...you know, I tell people, don't be self critical. Meanwhile, I'm like, oh, my God, everything sucks.

CARMEN: Do as I say, not as I do.

ADRIANA: Yeah, exactly.

CARMEN: Totally.

ADRIANA: Exactly. That's okay. That's what therapy is for. It's helping me get through. Same. Okay. Oh, we have one more question left.

CARMEN: Hey, I I'm excited.

ADRIANA: Okay. What is your superpower?

CARMEN: Oh, gosh. That one's actually gonna stump me. What is my superpower? I'm gonna sound naive, maybe, but, like, I think so. I used to frame it as, like, if a dummy like me can do it, so can you. I'm trying to reframe that into a little bit more of an expertise, because I owe myself some credit, but, like, I think my superpower might be making things approachable.

ADRIANA: Yes.

CARMEN: And I mean. And I mean that in every sense of the word. Like, one of my favorite projects I ever did back in my days at Codesy, where we were doing a tool, we were making a tool on a complex, code based understanding, and I was like, well, it's Hacktoberfest. We need a live stream. Carmen, do you have an idea. And I was like how about we get a bunch of like open source maintainers, have them onboard me onto their project using our tools, never having looked at the code before, not even tried the programming language before, and like it was, you know, it's onboarding so, and I, and I have no sense of dignity, so I bought a little sailor outfit and like, you know, they were onboarding me to the ship and it was a lot of fun and, but I felt like, I felt like that sort of like relaxation and like, you know, embracing what is it failing, how does I put it? Failing positively, failing safely, taking privilege into consideration, of course, but like failing safely and responsibly. Something, I think that's something that I'm good at. I remember I have one more story I had.

So like I was doing the, we're teaching JavaScript online for free at the Bad Website Club, and like we're doing the free code camp exercises. They're very kind, they're very cool people. There was one exercise there called the Record Collection Exercise where you had to manipulate a complex JavaScript object with a function and it was pretty complex. So what this was is an hour of live streaming where I would just go through and explain the solutions that I would write as I wrote them and explain concepts and that sort of thing. And I got so stuck, I got extremely stuck, couldn't make it work. And I remember panicking on the inside, of course, I'm very good at hiding it. I remember panicking being like oh my gosh, this isn't working. And people in the chat were like, I'm so lost...she's...what is she doing? Try, like, have you tried doing this and this and that? And I couldn't process it.

I was just like ah, anyway, and I felt like a failure. But I did eventually get it. I spent like 20 minutes of that 60 hours...60 minutes livestream going through this exercise. And then like I went, I disconnected, sat down, I had a tiny cry, but then I got a message from somebody being like hey Carmen, you know, that looked really tough. Congratulations on beating that exercise. I just wanted to write you and say like thank you for showing me that even someone who's been developing for software for 15 years is gonna get stuck on stuff occasionally. And that to me felt like probably the biggest victory of my career, where I made something seem more approachable, where I just added that human side of it. Like, I think especially as we're finding our first roles, we forget, especially if we've been in tech for a while, we forget what it's like to look up to folks and think like, well, they know everything.

It's kind of like when we're children and we look at grown ups and we're like, oh, yeah, they've got everything figured out. And then we, you know, I'm 36 and I'm like, still waiting for that to happen. And like, yeah, same happens with tech, you know, and I think that might be my superpower, just sort of like embracing.

ADRIANA: Yeah, I love that. I love that so much. And, you know, I...and you give off very approachable vibes. Like, you're, you're very friendly and bubbly and I feel like, you know, you're someone I'd want to learn from. And I think approachable, oh, no problem. Honestly, you know, making tech approachable and, and putting a friendly face to it is so important. Especially, like, I, I think for women in tech, that's so important too. Especially because so many of us come in intimidated.

Absolutely intimidated. Um, especially because it's, it's still a man's world in tech and we gotta, you know... and being able to show other people that, a, we exist.

CARMEN: Yeah.

ADRIANA: And b, like, we're friendly and approachable. Come learning with us...I think is so, so important.

CARMEN: I agree 100%. And if, you know, if I may say likewise, like, you have made this experience of talking to you and podcasting. I feel like I've known you for ages. It's the strangest thing.

ADRIANA: I know. I feel like we're like besties, right?

CARMEN: And like, and I think that's, that is that same application of like, making something approachable, making it not comfortable in a, in a, in a....let's say more like, let's say marshmallowy way, but like making, making folks comfortable to, for example, something as, something as perhaps straightforward from the outside is asking questions like, we take for granted how scary it is to ask questions and knowing, like, what's a proper heuristic of when to ask a question, especially as you're starting out and like, you know, especially if you don't work in a very positive, a positively reinforcing team. Like, how do I ask questions like, what is the right time? Like, I have a little hack for that, actually. Like, even though, like, I might know the answer to something if we're at a meeting or something, I'm still going to ask the question being like, what are KPI's? What is SEO? Or whatever? And like, I find that, like, make, it's that aspect of approachable. Maybe it's my focus point?

ADRIANA: Yeah. Yeah. I really like that. And I think forcing yourself to ask questions and, because, like, I remember so early on in my career, I'd be sitting in a meeting, absolutely lost and just, like, not knowing what's going on, and. And I've started to just, like, I force myself because it's so scary, too, like, especially when you're in a room of people who are so confident and they exude confidence, but they might not actually know anything or they might not know as much as they let on, let's say.

CARMEN: Yeah.

ADRIANA: And so I've taken to just, like, take a deep breath, ask the question, and I kind of take the Columbo approach. And, you know, like, for folks who are younger, I'm sorry, if you don't know who Columbo is, you should definitely look up Columbo. He was this awesome detective on TV, but his approach was, like, kind of, it was kind of the bumbling idiot question. So it wasn't that I presented myself as a bumbling idiot, but I'd be like, you know, just, just for my own education. To clarify for me, could you explain what, what this means and taking that sort of approach? And people are usually more than happy to answer that question that you have, which is, like, that's another thing that I learned. It's, like, asking.

CARMEN: And there's almost, like, a bystander effect to it where, like, maybe everyone wants to ask that question, but they don't feel like it's the right space to. And, like, by doing so, you kind of open that door and, like, allow more conversations to flow. And, like, especially for those, like, in a higher position of privilege, I highly encourage them to lend it and, like, make things more accessible for folks.

ADRIANA: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's one of the things I enjoy about being a DevRel as well, is I find, like, you know, the thing that, that kind of launched my blogging, my tech blogging was like, I'd be spending all this time, like, trying to figure stuff out, and. And then I'm like, oh, my God, this was a doozy. I got to write about this a for my own benefit so that I can. And I referred back to my blog posts that I've written in the past. I'm like, thank you, past me. I forgot this.

But also, like, my thought is, like, if I have this question, chances are others will, too. And I also like to document, like, these are all the places where I messed up. And so you might want to check this, too. Like, I try to include a list of gotchas, depending I, depending on what I'm writing. And I think that's really important.

CARMEN: I agree 100%. In fact, you reminded me, like, one of the things that I always like, especially when folks are starting out with, like, public speaking and that sort of thing, like, they're always like, what is the one number one thing that we hear? And, like, I feel it myself from time to time, too, because I'm human and it's like I have nothing to talk about. And I was like, and I always tell them, look, there's one audience member that you want to be targeting, and that is yourself from four months ago who would have benefited from this talk. And, like, as long as you've got that one person, because there's always going to be one person who watches something or, like, reads something that you've created and will, you know, they might reach out, they might not, but, like, know that people are benefiting from that, especially, like, you know yourself from the future. Like you said, I think it happened to me once already that, like, that I googled, like, a problem. I was like, oh, I wrote a blog post about this.

ADRIANA: Yes.

CARMEN: It's a great feeling.

ADRIANA: It is. I know. Yeah. And so, like, and that's why I was also encouraged people to, like, blog stuff that they learn about because, like, I had this one mentee, and, you know, I was trying to give him some, some direction on his career. I'm like, you know what? Blog stuff on Medium. And within months, he got, like, he got a lot more followers than me on Medium. I'm like, damn. I'm genuinely happy for him because he writes about, like, I believe he does, like, working in AWS, and he does a lot of stuff around APIs, and that's something that resonates with the community.

So, like, for him to get that many followers means that he's writing about stuff that really, like, touches...it's things that people want to know about. So I'm very, I'm very happy to have encouraged him to do that. And every so often when I see one of his blog posts, I'm like...

CARMEN: If I may, you absolutely, like, deserve to give yourself credit as well for playing a part in that. I think it's not something that I don't know...I find that oftentimes we don't give ourselves enough credit for the work that we do and encouraging others and taking some credit for it for ourselves and being like, you know what? I did play a part that's significant.

ADRIANA: Oh, thank you. Yeah, yeah, that's true. We do need to remember that we influence people's lives in different ways.

CARMEN: Absolutely.

ADRIANA: That's so awesome. Well, we. I think we're coming up on time, and we got through all...we got through all the lightning round questions, and this was, like, honestly such a fun application of the lightning round questions because it just, like, turned into so many fun topics that we got to dig into. And I swear I could just keep asking you more and more questions.

CARMEN: Same. I'm having such a good time.

ADRIANA: I think it just means I'll have to have you on at another point again.

CARMEN: I'd love that. Thank you.

ADRIANA: That would be so fun. So, yeah, you know, before we part ways, do you have any, any words of advice that you want to impart on our audience or hot takes, if you have any? Either is good.

CARMEN: Yeah, I think, you know, like, for me, very much a topic that's been very recent in my life is just sort of, like, trying to decouple myself from my online self, by which I mean, or, like, my professional self, and, like, trying to learn, like, not so much in a work life balance kind of thing, in terms more of a, like, identity sense of, like, am I a programmer or a human, or am I a dev. Am I an ops person? Am I a human being? Like, where do those coalesce? I don't even know if coalesce is the right word, but I'm gonna go with it. And. And, you know, been trying to take steps to sort of, like, maybe be a little bit less. Less online, maybe be like, I was having a conversation with somebody today about, you know, trends in tech and, like, FOMO, you know, fear of missing out. And, like, lately, that sort of, like, evolved for me in the last couple years into something that I called AOMO, which is more, ambivalence of missing out and, you know, trying to not...so not...I mean, of course, you know, mental health is very important, but also, like, trying to, I don't know, somebody gave you some advice once which was something like, youre only as helpful as you are capable in terms of energy, in terms of, like, you know, capacity.

If you take on too many mentees, the quality of your mentorship is going to decline, right? And I feel like a lot of that applies to. I mean, like, I'm talking about mentorship as if there's some kind of, like, seniority to that advice, and there really isn't. I think that this applies to a lot of aspects of my career. My friend Jess gave me some advice that I really love, which is that my phone is not allowed in my bedroom, and that has been such a game changer for me, first of all, because, like, the alarm sounds on my phone, I have to get up and go turn it off, as opposed to get up, drug, like, sort of groggily turn it off, and then go back to sleep. And I find that, like, yeah, I guess I'm trying to, like, decouple myself a little bit in terms of, like, you know, social media is...is...is very impactful, and it's giving me so many opportunities, opportunities for my career. But at the same time, I know that in my mo. In my weaker moments, it has dictated my life a little bit. So I'm trying to, like, you know, go easy myself and that sort of thing, and just. But at the same time, I'm not. I'm gonna not...I'm trying to feel less bad for feeling bad, if that makes any sense.

ADRIANA: Yeah. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense.

CARMEN: So, yeah. And generally, my friend Sylvia, when we were getting to know each other, I adore her to bits. She gave me some advice that I really love, which is, like, you need to present more as an expert, and that is such a weird little contrast to making things accessible. You also need to present a little bit more as an expert. It's something I'm figuring out. So it's not so much advice as this is what's going on in my life, but I think there's some resonance there with folks, so I hope that's helpful.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, that's so helpful. And I think I, you know, you've said so many insightful things, and I really, really enjoyed our conversation today. This has been a real, real treat and definitely brightened up my Tuesday.

CARMEN: Aw. Same, if I may say, like, you made this so approachable and so easy and so comfortable. Thank you.

ADRIANA: Oh, thank you. I really appreciate that. Well, and with that, thank you so much, Carmen, for geeking out with me today. Y'all don't forget to subscribe and be sure to check the show notes for additional resources and to connect with us and our guests on social media. Until next time...

CARMEN: Peace out and geek out.

ADRIANA: Geeking Out is hosted and produced by me, Adriana Villela. I also compose and perform the theme music on my trusty clarinet. Geeking Out is also produced by my daughter, Hannah Maxwell, who, incidentally, designed all of the cool graphics. Be sure to follow us on all the socials by going to bento.me/geekingout

About our guest:

Liz is a developer advocate, labor and ethics organizer, and Site Reliability Engineer (SRE) with nearly two decades of experience. She is currently the Field CTO at Honeycomb, and previously was an SRE working on products ranging from the Google Cloud Load Balancer to Google Flights.

Find our guest on:

• LinkedIn

Find us on:

• All of our social channels are on bento.me/geekingout
• All of Adriana's social channels are on bento.me/adrianamvillela

Show notes:

• Liz Fong-Jones on On-Call Me Maybe
• QBasic
• Advent of Code
• Dungeons & Dragons (game)
• Factotum (Dungeons & Dragons)
• The Daily Life of a Field CTO by Kai Waehner
• Jessitron
• Martin Dot Net
• Gartner Observability Platforms: Reviews and Ratings
• Gartner Magic Quadrant for Observability Platforms
• Application Load Balancer (ALB)
• OpenTelemetry Governance Committee

Additional notes:

• Observability Engineering by Charity Majors, Liz Fong-Jones, and George Miranda

Transcript:

ADRIANA: Hey, fellow geeks, welcome to Geeking Out, the podcast about all geeky aspects of software delivery DevOps, Observability, reliability, and everything in between. I'm your host, Adriana Villela, coming to you from Toronto, Canada, and geeking out with me today, I have Liz Fong Jones of Honeycomb. Welcome, Liz.

LIZ: G'day, Adri, from Sydney, Australia.

ADRIANA: Thank you for waking up early to record.

LIZ: That's kind of my life these days, given that I work with people from the US and Canada, start early, take a break midday, and then work late to catch the UK.

ADRIANA: Oh, damn. Wow, that is a lot.

LIZ: You know, that's a voluntary choice that I made to move to Australia, so I fully accept that.

ADRIANA: Are you permanently moved to Australia? Because before, I remember, you were splitting your time between.

LIZ: I'm still splitting my time, but, you know, I have a house here, I have clients here, so I'm spending several months a year here.

ADRIANA: Oh, nice, nice. And hopefully...how's the weather down under right now?

LIZ: A little bit chilly and rainy, but, you know, not by Canadian standards, right?

ADRIANA: True, true.

LIZ: People are complaining. Oh, like, you know, it's like, you know, 10 degrees or 15 degrees, and I'm just like, yeah, whatever, it's fine.

ADRIANA: I know, right?

LIZ: I have a jacket.

ADRIANA: There you go. Yeah, we've had, um, kind of, we've had a hot summer in Toronto, actually. Like, like Brazil hot, which is where I'm from originally. And, yeah, I've...I have a pretty good heat tolerance, but I have been melting, so...

LIZ: Yeah, yeah, it's fun to, you know, it's like the sauna to the, to the ice. To the ice bath, right? Like going back and forth. You get used to rapid climate changes in addition to time zones. That's something that no one tells you about is climate change.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. Well, I'm super excited to have you on...on the show and, and for folks who have been listening to Geeking Out, Liz was On-Call Me Maybe way back when, when I used to host that with Ana. And so I'm very excited that you've agreed to come on. Now, before we start off, I always like to start my guests off with some icebreaker questions. So are you ready?

LIZ: As ready as I'm going to be.

ADRIANA: All right, first question. Are you a lefty or a righty?

LIZ: I am a righty, like a majority of the population.

ADRIANA: All right, do you prefer iPhone or Android?

LIZ: I am an Android user because Google gave them to me for free for about a decade. I was one of the early, one of the Android beta testers. So that meant that I got free phones that might break. And that habit has carried on since after I left Google.

ADRIANA: Oh, that's so cool. How was it like having used like the early Android phones? What kind of experience was that?

LIZ: Yeah, you get them early in the technical validation process and you help carry them through all the way to production. Because of NDA, I can't talk exactly about what the experience was like. But yeah, no, it's cool having access to, to the latest hardware. It's actually though, it makes you weirdly paranoid because you have to hide your phone from being photographed by others. You have to slip it in your pocket at all times. You can't just leave it out on the table. So it does introduce some interesting complications to your life. But it was worth it at the time to get access to the latest and greatest hardware and to give the team feedback on it.

ADRIANA: Wow, that's so cool. Okay, next question. Do you prefer using Mac, Linux, or Windows?

LIZ: I am a hardcore Linux user with one exception. Well, it's technically still Linux on the desktop. I am a ChromeOS user for my laptop, again like habit from my Google days. But yes, I do my development in a VM on that ChromeOS machine. So it's Linux. I'm talking to you from a Linux machine. I have a habit of building mini ITX PCs that are all Linux based. I think I've got four little computers running around, each of which is its own independent Linux system.

ADRIANA: So are you then a lifelong Linux user? Did you ever dabble in Windows?

LIZ: I've been using Linux since I was 16, since 2003, 2004, cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's been my primary environment since, since college. So since 2005.

ADRIANA: I was, I guess forced...DOS was forced upon me because I mean like when Windows...

LIZ: Oh yes, of course, right, like MS DOS. Yeah, no, no, no, as a kid. Yes. Yeah, QBasic. Yeah, yeah.

ADRIANA: QBasic, oh my God, yes! Exactly!

LIZ: I knew I was destined to become a programmer when, in I think fourth grade, I wrote a program that would take three sets of coordinates and solve the quadratic equations.

ADRIANA: That's so cool. My dad got me into BASIC. He pulled me aside when I was ten and he's like, how'd you like to see something cool? I'm like, all right.

LIZ: Yeah. Yep. It runs in my biological family. I've got uncles and aunts who work in IT. So yeah.

ADRIANA: That's awesome. Okay, next question. What's your favorite programming language?

LIZ: Ooh, favorite. That's an interesting question. So I'm somewhat known for solving Advent of Code every year. I've been doing Advent of Code every year since it started in goodness, I don't even remember when it started, but like 2017 or something like that. So I've been doing Advent of Code in Go publicly on stream when I can for the better part of a decade now. So definitely Go is a programming language...I even use in recreation, the language that I use professionally. But it's really hard to pick favorites because, you know, I work with clients, clients use all kinds of languages.

I have to be a little bit of a polyglot as a result. So like, I do, I have a project that's written in typescript, for instance. I think it's really important to not, you know, just settle into rut and be like, I am a Java programmer, right? I think you kind of have to see and experience kind of what's going on. So at some point I will pick up Rust, I am sure, and become the prototypical stereotype of a trans cat girl who programs in Rust and has stripey socks, but that's not going to be today.

ADRIANA: Fair enough, fair enough. I do really like what you said about just broadening your horizons and learning other languages because I was actually like a Java developer for like 15,16 years and that was like my whole life. And then a friend introduced me to Python and, you know, I was like in my 30s at the time and I'm like, oh, so cool. Like, you know, it was for the first time, like since, you know, my BASIC days I did QBasic, Visual Basic, that I was like actually picking up another language and I'm like freaking cool. I got to do more of that. And yeah, and that was like my first sort of like, oh my God, you can learn another language at the same time, which is ridiculous when you think about it. Of course you can. Next question. Do you prefer dev or ops?

LIZ: I prefer ops. I still, despite my railing on about how you shouldn't try to be a hero, I personally enjoy that feeling of solving the problem. I'm not going to say that I enjoy necessarily being the hero, but I definitely enjoy being, being the person who has the insight that solves a problem, right? Like, you know, it's weird, right? Like, you know, when you, when you're doing dev stuff, like, you know, there, there is some degree of, you know, I'm, I have a start of the problem. I have the end of the problem, I fill in the stuff in the middle, right? Like you have some idea as to how it's going to go because you've decomposed the pro- the problem enough, right? Yeah, I think with ops it's a little bit more unpredictable. There's a little bit more novelty. Right? Because you don't know what's going to happen when you open up the box, right? And I, and I think that's, that's, that's the fun thing.

ADRIANA: Yeah. Yeah.

LIZ: So I'm not going to say it's necessarily about, you know, the esteem of having people be like, Liz, you solved it. Like...But it's much more about the, you know, I find that it's really interesting to do the ops and, and to, and to find new things.

ADRIANA: Yeah, absolutely. Totally agree with you. All right, next question. Do you prefer JSON or YAML?

LIZ: I think I prefer JSON because it is not whitespace sensitive and, you know, you can pretty print JSON if you need to. That being said, my pet peeve about JSON is the fact that they do not support the trailing comma in lists and that peeves me off to...like nothing else. But no, I have to interact with YAML because of Kubernetes manifests and CircleCI configs and I have broken enough YAML configs. Oh, and the hand handling of floats and the handling of like, variables. Can we not just quote all of the keys and call it a day? Right? Like, it's stuff like that that just drives me up the wall.

ADRIANA: Yeah, I feel, ya. I've heard a couple of horror stories with YAML. Like someone was telling me the other day, like, "ON", which is the abbreviation for Ontario, is interpreted by YAML as "on", "true". So it's like...I know, right? So it's like all these little nuances in YAML where you have to be like extra careful. Plus the white space. I still like YAML myself because I find it a little bit more readable than JSON because of like my Java days. All the curly braces in JSON just kind...

LIZ: Just feed it to JQ and you'll be good, right? That's literally what I do anytime I encounter anything that's in JSON is I immediately pretty print it. You're right.

ADRIANA: Oh, yeah. I have to pretty print it because I just cannot function otherwise. I feel you. Okay, next question. Do you prefer spaces or tabs?

LIZ: I am a Go programmer, so I am obliged to tell you tabs. But let's be real. I think that spaces work a little bit better in text editors because they actually run consistently. Like, I have to manually configure, like my tab with in Nano, my favorite text editor, in order to, you know, whenever I set up a new machine, because it defaults to eight spaces for a tab and that just eats your screen, right? Two, two, right? Like, so, yeah. I personally would prefer spaces, except for Go makes me use tabs.

ADRIANA: Ah, fair enough, fair enough. Okay, two more questions to go. Do you prefer to learn through video or text?

LIZ: I am a text person. I use captions whenever I can because I just read so much faster than I audio process. Or rather, if I'm going to be listening to video, I have to listen to it at 1.75 x or 2x. I just have to. It's not that my audio processing is slow. It's actually the opposite of that. It's that interacting with video at 1.0x is painful, and I will often multitask something else with it. If you make me watch a video at 1.0x. Cue the obligatory HR videos where you have to sit...sit and watch them, and like, click the little spinner at the end of 1 minute precisely. And it's just like, yeah, so, yeah, text. Because I can read it however fast I want without having to wait for the speaker to deliver the words.

ADRIANA: Yeah, I agree with you. I actually watch TV with captions on, and it's just so...

LIZ: I watch TV with captions on and I do something else that if I, rightly, because I process not quite at 2.0x, I process at 1.75x. So as a result, like, if I do two things at the same time, I'm going to miss a little bit of each one. But the captions help me stay like...

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely, yeah.

LIZ: ADHD high 5.

ADRIANA: One thing that I've never, like, been able to do is actually listen to stuff at like, high speed. Like faster than 1x. Like, when I'm listening to a podcast, if I accidentally hit a button that makes it 1.25x, it actually drives me crazy. Like, they're talking too fast. Like, it breaks my brain. I don't know what it is, but so many people I talk to, they're like, I can only listen to it at, like, listen to stuff at super high speed. I'm like, more power to you all. Does not work for me at all.

Okay, final question. What is your superpower?

LIZ: What is my superpower? My superpower is I am...are you familiar with Dungeons and Dragons?

ADRIANA: Yes. High-level familiar.

LIZ: Okay...there is a class that was added on afterwards that's called the Factotum, and the Factotum is able to emulate the ability of any other class by using a certain number of knowledge points. I am a Factotum, right? Like, I am specialized in nothing in particular, but I am really good at being able to do things that specialists in other fields would do, but only one or two of them, and otherwise being able to communicate with specialists in other fields, right?

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIZ: So I can get people to talk to each other who don't necessarily kind of share common ground or share kind of skills. I can pick up those people's skills and use them, at least for a time. So that's my superpower.

ADRIANA: That is such a great superpower. And this leads nicely into our main, or one of our main topics of conversation, which is, I think when you and I met, you were at Honeycomb working as a DevRel. But in the last couple of years, you've transitioned over to being a Field CTO. And for folks in our audience, it would be great if you could explain what that entails and also what prompted you to make that change.

LIZ: Yeah. So Field CTO is a role that is relatively new in the industry, and it really depends from Field CTO to Field CTO, company to company. Um, so actually, the one of the field CTOs at Confluent, um, whose name is Kai, wrote a piece about it. But in essence, you know, regardless of what someone's background is and where they come, come to being a Field CTO from being a Field CTO is about interacting with customers who are making very sophisticated use of your technology or otherwise have really interesting and gnarly technical problems or social problems. Honestly, the social problems are the more interesting ones that they need the help of someone who is an expert and an expert at the executive level to solve, right? So unlike a DevRel, right? Like, you know, I don't necessarily...

I don't necessarily write "how to" blogs anymore. I don't necessarily, you know, yes, I do speak at the occasional conference, but more and more of my time is spent on site with customers. And I think that is, you know, interacting one on one with customers is something that I really, really treasure because it means that I get to see all the cool things they're doing with Honeycomb. And the other piece of my job that I really enjoy is going back to the product development team. And actually, I try to, as best as I can, carry water and chop wood for them and also help solve technical problems that our customers are having at scale in our tool. So, for instance, I am working this week on something where a customer was like, we want more than 100 group by fields in a Honeycomb query. And I'm like, okay, I'll see what I can do. Let's talk to the team to see if it's possible. Let's try it out. I've been Field CTO for about two years now, coming up on two years in October, and it's been super, super rewarding to now be at the executive level in Honeycomb, to have the opportunity to interact with the executives at other companies. It's weird. There's not like, you know, a sudden transition in job responsibilities. I think it was more like, there's this funny thing that happened. In July of 2022, I was invited by Amazon to give the keynote at, or one of the customer keynotes at AWS Summit, New York. And they gave me, the AWS PR team, gave me a lot of side eye about, oh, you're, you know, not an executive.

You're not a CTO or VP. Like, you know, what are you doing up on stage as a principal engineer, right? And that was kind of a catalyst of, okay, fine. Like, you know, titles do matter at some point, right? So I didn't change what I was doing overnight, but instead, I kind of gradually fell into the role, and then the job titles changed afterwards.

ADRIANA: Oh, that's so cool.

LIZ: Yeah.

ADRIANA: So did you find then, because it was more of a gradual change. Like, there was, like, less. Like, was. Was there anything still, like, super jarring that stood out for you when you. When you made that change? Or. Or.

LIZ: I think the main thing that has really been kind of challenging is, you know, when I was DevRel, I was part of the Devrel team, right? Like, you know. You know Jessitron, you know Martin Thwaites, right? Like, you know Martin Dot Net, right? Like, so, you know, they're an amazing team, but I'm not part of that team anymore, right? Like, Charity and I are off on our own as the office, the CTO. And I think that that is a little bit of a change in that. I'm not part of marketing anymore.

I kind of don't have a department. So I work across all the departments, but there's not necessarily anyone I can lean on who's like, you're working with me. Let's do this. So I kind of have to beg and borrow to work with people. And, of course, people are happy to have the opportunity to work with me, but I'm nothing part of their planning processes, right? If I show up and, you know, as happened the past six months, right? Like, you know, if...

If I show up and say, you know, hey, by the way, we're going to be trying out Graviton 4,right? Like, you know, that's...that's something where I either need to drive myself or, you know, I need to just find someone who wants to geek out about it with me.

ADRIANA: Yeah. Yeah. So does part of your job then entail, like, you coming up with some interesting use cases to try out? Or are you driven more by customer asks, or is it a bit of both?

LIZ: Customer and partner asks? But I do think that they're, for instance, the thing with Graviton 4, that's Amazon, who's a partner of ours. They asked us to try it and I said yes. You don't in general say no when Amazon asks you, do you want to try this shiny cool thing? But, yeah, I think that majority of what I do is driven by what large customers are experiencing or what I can see they will be experiencing, right? Like, I think there is some room for thought leadership, right? There is some room for, like, looking ahead of where things are. But historically, as a company, Honeycomb has trended always, you know, too far ahead of where the ball is today.

Right? Where people can't necessarily see. This is, you know, how it aligns with what they're, what they're doing today. And we're trying to course correct that now and meet people, people where they're at now. So that's where I find myself spending a majority of time now is pragmatically connecting where people are with the challenges that Honeycomb helps solve for them. And also seeing these are the integration points that we're going to need, right? So one of the projects I'm working on is relating to better log support in Honeycomb.

Because it turns out that despite Charity and me saying, you know, throw your logs in the bin. Actually, no, you can't. Kubernetes emits logs. You're not going to throw Kubernetes in the bin. So what do we do about that? What do we do about your legacy applications? Looking at that is something I'm contributing to, and that's really driven by what customers ask me about every day.

ADRIANA: Right. That's so cool.

LIZ: Yeah. In terms of superpowers, another superpower...we were just...also, how I consume...I read text incredibly fast. As a result, I'm in several hundred different Slack channels and I read them all and I can just do that. It's great.

ADRIANA: Oh, damn. That is a superpower.

LIZ: Yeah. I don't listen to all of this calls that our sales team have with clients. But, boy, do I ever read the gong summaries of all of the call recordings.

ADRIANA: So it's funny because when you were describing the nature of the job, initially, it almost felt like. Almost like a consultant role, but non technical. But it is totally not that, because there's definitely. It sounds like there's some very, very technical aspects. So you're...you're kind of like a...a super tactical consultant who is working with, like, very high level, like, executives kind of thing.

LIZ: Executives and principal engineers. Yeah, right. Like, you know, that's that first point of call of, there's this really interesting or weird customer who's asking this question they've never seen before, right? Like, hit me with it. Like, I've been around the system long enough, and also, I'm aware of what the best practices are around observability.

ADRIANA: So does this. I wonder, like, does part of your job entail also, like, working with some of the solutions engineers? Like, pairing with them on that?

LIZ: Yeah. So I work with our solutions engineers. I work with our customer support and our customer success team. I work with customer architects. I work with software developers. That's why I say I'm a Factotum. I have to be able to speak sales. I have to be able to speak engineering.

I have to be able to speak marketing. I have to be able to communicate with all of these people and collaborate with them daily.

ADRIANA: What's been your favorite part of being Field CTO so far?

LIZ: I think my favorite part is the variety of it. No customer is alike. I think that's a lot of fun. I think the gratification and the payoff of this is what we're building. This is how people are really, actually leveraging it. I think that's also really, really satisfying.

ADRIANA: Is there any sort of thing that you've been working on that you're allowed to talk about where you're like, oh, my God, this has been, like, the coolest thing I've gotten to do.

LIZ: Yeah. I think one of my on and off fascinations is continuous profiling, and it is very, very weird in that, you know, it interacts with the very, very guts of the kernel, of the runtimes. So getting to interact with one of the Go subsystem maintainers, cherrymui, and sending her crash reports when the profiling doesn't work completely according to plan, getting to work on our integration with profiling that we developed a couple years back and that we continue to use ourselves, I think that's a lot of fun because it shows how much depth there is if you really, really, really want to get into understanding the performance of your system. I do not necessarily recommend that our clients do this. There's so much low hanging fruit to find just via tracing, but we aim to be cost effective. We aim to be fast. And part of how you get there is by looking at continuous profiling and looking at the data down to the kind of nearest, nearest line of code. And I think that's a lot of fun.

It's just maybe not quite at the level of application where everyone should be doing it, but that's kind of a thing that I've worked on, on and off for the past two years that I found to be just, it's so much fun. And that engineer geek brain of, I want to optimize the heck out of this. That's the thing that it really satisfies for me.

ADRIANA: And speaking of profiling, now, profiling is actually one of the newest OTel signals, which is extremely exciting.

LIZ: Yes. I was one of the people who nudged the Pyroscope team to start to form the SIG, and then people from all the profiling vendors joined, and it was wonderful. Yes. So I am really thrilled by it. I wanted to congratulate the people who work on it. And, yeah, having kind of that singular profiling agent contribute by Elastic, like, that's. That's going to be...that's going to be so amazing in terms of just, you know, standardizing the format, standardizing how we can produce the data and then leaving it to vendors and open source solutions for people to look at it.

Right? Like that kind of really, really opens up that opportunity for people to start using it in anger a little bit more, I think.

ADRIANA: Yeah, absolutely. And just getting that extra little bit of insight now that, you know, it's been standardized, which is super cool.

LIZ: Yeah.

ADRIANA: Now, I wanted to switch gears a little bit because before we started recording, I asked if you had any interesting hot takes to share. So I will let you share your...one o...one of your hot takes.

LIZ: Yeah. So as of when we're recording this, the Gartner Magic Q uadrant just came out. And I was actually just on Reddit, like, you know, talking to a bunch of SREs who...and I think that it's interesting in that, you know, the SREs are saying Gartner got it wrong. And, you know, I may or may not have some spicy opinions about, about the way that the Gartner Magic Quadrant shook out, but I think it's really interesting to see. It's almost like a Rorschach test, right? Like, you look at it and you see what you want to see, right? So, yeah, my spicy take is that because I interact with enterprise buyers, SREs are not the enterprise buyer, right? So I saw SREs just slagging Gartner, right? And it's like, no, the Gartner analysts that I speak to are very smart. They know what they're doing.

And their audience is executives. Their audience is executives at fortune hundred companies, right? Like, so, you know, you an individual contributor SRE at some cool startup. The Gartner magic quadrant is not for you. So if you're complaining, you know, oh, like, you know, why didn't. Isn't Grafana ahead of Datadog and, and Dynatrace? The answer is that Grafana is maybe not quite as batteries included as you know, that large enterprise really wants it to be, right? Like, you know, that's, you know, sure, you can set up Grafana. That's great for you, but that doesn't mean that it's going to be the best choice for a big enterprise. So, yeah, people, you know, were like, oh, my God, like, you know, Gartner's so pay to play, and it's like, no, like, you know, Gartner does a fair job. Like, you know, sure, you can buy their attention to listen to you, but that doesn't necessarily guarantee they're going to, you know, say good things about you.

So, you know, you can get Gartner to, you know, even mention your name in the quadrant, but that doesn't guarantee that you're going to score well according to their evaluation criteria. That being said, you can game their evaluation criteria. So I think that's spicy take number two is I was actually looking at LinkedIn and I saw, you know, Rob Skillington, one of the co founders of Chronosphere, you know, bragging about, you know, how well they placed and also saying, like, you know, they spent, you know, hundreds of hours, you know, a thousand, a thousand hours working on, you know, on making sure that they had every single, like, you know, qualifying attribute of the Gartner magic quadrant precisely shown in a, in a, in a, in a demo video snippet, right? If you try super, super hard and, you know, you curate your example to, you know, demonstrate narrowly what Gartner's asking for, sure, you can do really well, but I think competitively in the field, my own experience is that we do not tend to encounter chronosphere in terms of it being a competitor we've run into in APM competitive situations. They're primarily a metrics vendor and newly logging vendor with their calyptia acquisition. And it seems very weird to me until I saw Rob Skillington's post.

You know, it seemed very weird to me that a competitor that was so weak in the APM and tracing space that very publicly trashed tracing and trashed OpenTelemetry that they could score so well in the Gartner Magic Quadrant. And then the pieces clicked together when I saw that they basically curated the view that they wanted Gartner to see. Whereas I can say my team and the extended team in Honeycomb, we put in a good effort and we showed the product as it is. We didn't invest a bunch of effort in polishing it, and I think that reflects it. Gartner is tough. Gartner is fair. I don't dispute where we placed in the Gartner Magic Quadrant. I think their criticisms of us were spot on, and those are things that we actually happen to be working on.

You know, I think the Gartner Magic Quadrant is a useful tool. You know, I think that it should be taken with skepticism and a grain of salt, but it is not pay to play. It is. If you make one criticism, it's that, you know, you can put in a lot of effort to, like, look super sparkly, but that it is a fair perspective as to how the enterprise market perceives, perceives companies, whether it be observability or a different magic quadrant. So sorry, SREs, you're wrong. Gartner is not being unfair to Grafana. Gartner is not being "pay to play". But you are not the audience for the Gartner Magic Quadrant. Right?

ADRIANA: That's super fair. And I have a follow up question on that, which is, you know, how...what's the process of being like, one of the vendors that Gartner evaluates is that do they look at all the vendors in the space, or do you come to them?

LIZ: They look at all the vendors in the space. Although obviously some of the additions to that are a little bit weird. Like, in past years, they've had Alibaba Cloud on there, and it's like, who? Right? And that might be an example of, okay, this is a really niche thing that they were forced to add for one reason or another. But no, every major player in the space gets given an invitation to participate. But as a criteria for inclusion, you are obliged to...you are obliged to submit proof that you have a certain minimum number of customers. You are required to submit confidential proof of your top line revenue and the growth year on year. And if you do not meet those criteria, you are not included.

They actually added a note in their report saying Observe Inc. was not included in the report because they. Not because they failed to meet the functional criteria, but because they failed to meet the non functional revenue, revenue and customer criteria, which was super spicy, but, right. Like, so, yeah, it is a well rounded set of the industry. Obviously a vendor can choose not to participate. I don't know why they would do that, but, yeah. So your employer, ServiceNow, Lightstep, is on the Magic Quadrant. I truthfully think you should have placed higher, but, you know, I wasn't privy to what you submitted to them.

So, yeah, that's kind of how it goes. Lots and lots and lots and lots of spreadsheets, lots and lots of recording demo videos. And, you know, it's up to you how much time you want to invest in it. We are a 200 person startup. We decided to do a good enough job and not necessarily. Not necessarily clip all the rough edges off.

ADRIANA: Right, right. It's interesting because it almost sounds like, you know, the type of process that you, you go through for an audit. Obviously not, not quite as, as much scrutiny, I would imagine, as doing an audit, but you have to put in the work.

LIZ: Yep. Yep.

ADRIANA: There is another question that I want to ask. You know, having, now that you're, you're interacting a fair bit with, with enterprise customers, what's, how has it been in terms of like, differences that you've noticed between interacting with enterprise versus non enterprise customers?

LIZ: People are a little bit scared by the deploy on Fridays thing. It still is a little spooky to people. Right. Like, and it's understandable that if your deploys break regularly and break after a time, time delay of 24 to 48 hours, that you would be spooked about deploying on Fridays. Right. So I kind of have to dial back the, you know, Charity and Liz, like, you know, break all the things rabble rousing. And, you know, I focus on stability, I focus on speed. And then I'm like, okay, now that you have stability and speed, like, you know, let's, let's talk, let's talk about revisiting Friday deploys.

Right. Similarly, like, I've had to caveat the, you know, test in production to like, you know, you test and you, you test in production whether you admit it or not. Right? Like, we're not saying don't test in staging. We're saying, you know. Right. Yeah. So I think that's definitely changed. I think, you know, the enterprises are not necessarily quite as willing to make large bets with the exception of kind of innovation units in startups or, sorry, innovation units and enterprises.

Right. Like, so they spin up an internal team, they give them resources to work with public cloud, to work with the latest technology. Right. Like those teams are the teams that are more willing to be game to try, to try and experiment.

ADRIANA: Yeah, absolutely. And let's not forget also the inordinately long process of getting approvals for anything enterprise related.

LIZ: Firewall holes. Firewalls are my new enemy.

ADRIANA: Oh my God. I, when I worked at Bank of Montreal for eleven-ish years, and I think one of the most annoying things that I had to do in my time there was making firewall rules, request changes. It was such a process. Such a process. And I swear it, like changed every time I did it. I just wanted to like pull my hair out. It was. Yeah...

LIZ: I know. And we live in the world of public cloud, right? Like, I use ALBs, the IP addresses of my ALBs, I cannot guarantee. Right? Like, you know, we have private link. That's how we solve that problem for a majority of cases. Right. Like, because people don't understandably don't want to open a firewall hole to all of the us east. One EC2 public IPs.

ADRIANA: Yeah, I feel ya. I feel ya. One thing that I also wanted to ask you spent many years at Google as an SRE. Do you miss it? Do you miss the SRE work?

LIZ: I get to work with the SRE team at Honeycomb and they are so incredibly talented and sharp and I love working with them. No, I don't necessarily get to do that much SRE work myself anymore, but I get to help and work with SREs across many different companies. Right. So I'm kind of a meta SRE now. I've come to terms with that. In terms of Google. Yes, I miss my Google colleagues, but increasingly, whether due to layoffs or voluntary turnover, there's been this diaspora and it's really nice to get to interact with them and potentially even work with them. At Honeycomb, we just had a former Google SRE who became a platform engineering manager at Honeycomb.

Right. Like, so. Yeah. So, you know, I do miss some. I do miss the people, but many of them have followed over into startup world, which is exciting.

ADRIANA: Yeah, that's awesome. And one other question that I wanted to ask with regards to your role as Field CTO, do you find coming in to an organization, you know, when you're proposing certain changes, how open are folks to making those changes?

LIZ: It's a self selecting bias in that the people that I speak to are the people who have already chosen to engage Honeycomb or to do a trial with Honeycomb or are otherwise investigating us. That means that a leader has a mandate for some kind of change. It may or may not be the change that we're proposing, but they do have a mandate for change. So that means that there is some appetite, at least by leadership. Yes. The people they are leading may or may not want to go along with that change, but that's kind of their job as a leader, is to have the trust of their organization and drive the change through, through the organization. So, yes, I think one of the best times to approach someone on behalf of our sales team is when someone's just made a job change, right. When they've just come in as a director or VP or CTO somewhere.

Right. Like, that means that they have a mandate to bring in new practices. And Honeycomb, OpenTelemetry can be some of those new practices.

ADRIANA: Yeah. So, so true. And speaking of OpenTelemetry, what's. What's your involvement with OpenTelemetry these days?

LIZ: I'm an emeritus governance committee member. So, right now, you know Austin Parker very well. So they're serving as, as a OpenTelemetry governance committee member, and they're very easily accessible to me. As you know, we're both Honeycomb employees. The governance committee state belongs to the individual, not to the company. But I don't see a reason for duplication, though, of having multiple people who work at the same company being on the GC. So I haven't felt the need to stand for the GC.

I recently submitted some pull requests to the OpenTelemetry Go project. So, you know, I'm still...I explicitly said I do not want my approver status back. Thank you very much. I don't have enough time to contribute. But, hey, by the way, here's a drive by performance fix.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIZ: Whenever I see a problem that I can help a customer address with my familiar with OpenTelemetry, I'll do it. But we have an entire team, engineering team, that's dedicated to working on OpenTelemetry. Now, I don't have to do that change unless it's something that's super quick and easy for me.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah. That's great. And I think it's so great that so many of the observability vendors out there have dedicated teams to work on OpenTelemetry, which I think really speaks to the staying power of OTel, and that they collectively, everybody wants OTel to succeed. And I absolutely love that.

LIZ: Yeah. Right. Like, it is our SDK. Right. Like, you know, it is our SDK that we collectively have to maintain in order to make sure all of our customers have a good experience. You know, it's a little bit decentralized, but it means that we're working on the same project despite having our paychecks paid by different people. And that's okay.

ADRIANA: Yeah, totally. And one thing that, you know, I always say over and over is I really appreciate the vendor neutrality aspect of OTel because, you know, I interact with folks in OTel who are from different companies, and I don't look at them as competitors. They're just, like, friends, people I work with. Like, we're all working towards the same goal and. And that it's so deliberate that, you know, anytime there's, like, a hint of, like, this might not be vendor neutral, people are like, you might want to reconsider, like, rewording it or, I'm sorry, we can't accept this because it violates our vendor neutrality policy. Super fair. Super fair. And I love that.

LIZ: Yeah. The only bug there has been when someone's marketing department releases something without the. Without checking it first with the OTel team at that vendor. Right. When there's no. Yeah, right. People are pretty good about self policing. Unless, you know, unless there's just a lack of communication. Right. And you could say that about engineering, too, right? Like, you know, lack of communication. That's what causes, like, things to go awry more often than not.

ADRIANA: Yeah, absolutely. Totally agree with you. Well, we are coming up on time, so before we wrap up, I was wondering if you had any parting words of wisdom that you wanted to share with folks.

LIZ: I think my parting word of wisdom is always be trying new things. And if that new thing is OpenTelemetry, great. The starting experience is super easy. But no, but, yeah, just keep on learning. Never just be like, I'm in my abroad, and this is what I do.

ADRIANA: Yeah, I love that. And so important for tech as well, right? I mean, you either learn new stuff or you wither away from the industry. Well, thank you so much, Liz, for Geeking Out with me today. Y'all don't forget to subscribe and be sure to check the show notes for additional resources and to connect with us and our guests on social media. Until next time...

LIZ: Peace out and geek out.

ADRIANA: Geeking Out is hosted and produced by me, Adriana Villela. I also compose and perform the theme music on my trusty clarinet. Geeking Out is also produced by my daughter, Hannah Maxwell, who incidentally, designed all of the cool graphics. Be sure to follow us on all the socials by going to bento.me/geekingout.

About our guest:

With a high spirit and a low sense of mortality, Diana completed her master’s in CS regardless of never having coded prior to grad school. Through her passion for learning and teaching tech, she found her calling in advocacy, where she exercises her creativity through conference talks and content creation. She likes oysters.

Find our guest on:

• LinkedIn
• X (Twitter)
• Instagram

Find us on:

• All of our social channels are on bento.me/geekingout
• All of Adriana's social channels are on bento.me/adrianamvillela

Show notes:

• KubeHuddle 2024
• KubeHuddle on YouTube
• Lunar New Year
• Miss Vietnam San Diego 2017
• Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu
• Capybara (capy)
• Capybaras at High Park Zoo in Toronto
• Capybaras in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
• Balut

Transcript:

ADRIANA: Hey y'all, welcome to Geeking Out, the podcast about all geeky aspects of software delivery, DevOps, Observability, reliability, and everything in between. I'm your host Adriana Villela, coming to you from Toronto, Canada. And Geeking Out with me today from KubeHuddle in Toronto, I have Diana Pham.

DIANA: Thanks for having me.

ADRIANA: Super excited to have you. I've put it on my to do list for KubeHuddle to like, anyone that I've wanted to interview for my podcast that I haven't interviewed, who is here? I'm nailing them down. So yay.

DIANA: I mean, it wasn't really hard to find me because we're both organizers. We more or less had each other's schedules. We ran the schedule, and so we just actually put this entire conference on hold to have this podcast.

ADRIANA: That's right, that's right. They're waiting for us right now. Awesome. Okay, so before we get started, I've got some lightning round questions while my lovely daughter Hannah does like ballet in the background just to troll me, which I love. Okay, are you ready?

DIANA: Yes.

ADRIANA: Okay, first question. Are you a lefty or a righty?

DIANA: I am a righty.

ADRIANA: Okay. Are you iPhone or Android?

DIANA: I'm an iPhone-er. Why don't I have to think about that? I don't know. I thought about that less harder than when you asked me like right or left? I looked down.

ADRIANA: Okay, next question. Mac, Linux or windows?

DIANA: Mac. Just because that's what my company provides.

ADRIANA: Fair enough. That's a good answer. What's your favorite programming language?

DIANA: I am a Python girly.

ADRIANA: Ooh, team Python. And Hannah is like all excited in the background because she loves the Python. I do love Python. I grew up in Java land.

DIANA: Oh, same. It was my second language, Java land. Oh, Java land.

ADRIANA: Java land. I don't know. I'm getting trolled by Tim. Getting trolled by Tim in the background because of my pronunciation of Java.

DIANA: That's pretty accurate. So it was actually my 2nd, 2nd programming language, if not first. And whenever I tweet about me working on something Java related, people would comment. They're like, oh, why are you using Java? Or like, oh, what are you building? And I was like, whatever my company is asking or whatever my company's paying me to build.

ADRIANA: So that's fair. That's fair.

DIANA: Yeah, yeah.

ADRIANA: You like Java? Because I've grown to not like it.

DIANA: It's very verbose. But I'm also a very verbose person, as you'll realize as I keep talking when I shouldn't.

ADRIANA: Hey there's nothing wrong with that. Okay, next question. Do you prefer Dev or Ops?

DIANA: I'm a Dev. I want to learn Ops, but I can barely Ops on a daily basis. I'm going to go with Dev.

ADRIANA: All righty. Do you prefer JSON or YAML?

DIANA: I'm gonna go with JSON. This readability wise.

ADRIANA: That's funny. See, I find, like, JSON not readable for myself. Yeah. I find YAML more readable.

DIANA: I think it's also because when I look at JSON, it's like, an aesthetic thing for me, where I visualize boxes that don't exist. But that's just me being a little dululo, but it works for me. So.

ADRIANA: So, like, the curly braces kind of, like, frame things.

DIANA: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

ADRIANA: And Java vibes.

DIANA: Java vines. Exactly. Once again, verbose, unnecessary, but they're there.

ADRIANA: Okay, next question. Spaces or tabs?

DIANA: I'm gonna say tabs.

ADRIANA: All right.

DIANA: Just out of convenience. Okay, convenience.

ADRIANA: Okay, next question. Two more to go. Do you prefer consuming...I can't talk now.

DIANA: No, you're good.

ADRIANA: Do you prefer consuming content through video or text?

DIANA: Ooh, I would say video. Yeah.

ADRIANA: All right, final question. What is your superpower?

DIANA: Oh, my gosh. So on my. Yeah, so on my slide for our upcoming panel, the closing keynote panel, I put eating oysters and walking and talking in heels.

ADRIANA: Nice. Yeah, that is a skill.

DIANA: I guess, simultaneously, I can walk, talk, and wear heels and eat oysters. And eat oysters. I've never been asked to do that, but if I was, I'm pretty sure I could.

ADRIANA: That could be a special talent at a pageant.

DIANA: There we go. So, for those of you who don't know, Hannah refers me as "Pageant Friend".

ADRIANA: Pageant Friend. Yeah.

DIANA: So I'm not sure how much context you've given her about what I do, but when I was in college, I actually competed in pageants. It was a way of me raising money for school because I went through, like, this whole crisis realizing that I just pulled a bunch of loans without really knowing the value of money when you're 18. And so what do I...

ADRIANA: Just give them to you!

DIANA: Yeah. Yeah. And...and I was like, oh, college. Everyone does that. And so however much it costs, it was like, oh, loans. Everyone knows, like, oh, you need to take both as an American. "As an American", it's really common to get student loans. And so you just have this preconceived notion that you're going to be spending the rest of your life paying off these loans. But once I started to get a job and have some sort of understanding of what the value of money was. I was like, oh, my gosh, I took a lot of money out, you know, and so that's kind of how I spiraled and decided to do a pageant, which is not a very common way of raising money for your school. But...yeah!

ADRIANA: They must pay well enough.

DIANA: Honestly, they didn't like, they didn't. But I do have to admit that when I competed in one, I was in Miss Vietnam, San Diego of 2017. I did that one. I ended up winning, even though my parents really didn't want me to compete. They were more like, hey, just focus in school. Focus on, you know, the things that matter. But I went behind their back. Not saying that other kids of that age should be doing that, but I went behind their back. I competed, I won, and they were very upset that I went behind their back because it was also my, like, I'm Vietnamese American, my family, we celebrate Lunar New Year's, and that was the one year that New Year's landed on a weekend.

ADRIANA: Oh.

DIANA: And so of all years that I could have competed, it was that one. So fast forward. They are really proud that, you know, I had that accomplishment. But where it really, like, paid off, I guess it definitely did not pay off all of school, but I lost my grandpa that same year, and my parents, they're definitely not, like. I don't want to say not in the position, but they do financially support me in school as much as they could. And during that one quarter where the bills were due, they had to fly back to Vietnam for the funeral or just to see my grandpa one last time. And I did not have, like, money from them to pay for school. And so what I do, I cash that check, and that check alone from that one competition paid enough for me to cover my dues for the quarter.

ADRIANA: That's so cool.

DIANA: Yeah, that's awesome.

ADRIANA: Hey, I mean, you got to do what you got to do there to make ends meet. That's so cool. And. But you continued doing pageants.

DIANA: I did. After that, it was more like, I definitely wanted to continue to do it for school. I started competing in more, like, the American pageants in the past, I did more vietnamese local pageants. And so miss. I did miss America's organization, and that was actually the first time I did a tech...a tech talent.

ADRIANA: Oh, cool. What was it?

DIANA: And so you get 90 seconds on stage, and so most girls, you know, they sing, they dance, they play an instrument. And I was like, I'm gonna do a tech demo. And so I did one where I explained how my parents, they're immigrants, and they didn't initially learn English when they grew up. Like, growing up, they just didn't know English. While I, on the other hand, am...

ADRIANA: Yeah.

DIANA: Like, I was given that opportunity. And so when voice assistants came out, here we are with the means to actually purchase them, while back then, like, they never thought that, you know, Alexa would be in their life or they would even be able to afford it. And then finally they came here, they pursued the American Dream. They finally are able to afford this thing, but it doesn't understand them because of their accents. And so just to give some perspective on that, it's just like, it's not that Alexa is racist or anything. It's just the lack of data that's out there, you know? And so I designed an app where they can just text, like, whatever control command they want for the house assisting, or, like, the home assistant. So super briefly high level explained that in 90 seconds, and then I demoed it.

ADRIANA: Oh, my God. So it was like an interview. Yeah, like a job interview. I mean, these things are interviews anyway.

DIANA: I mean, they really are. They really are. And the very first time I did it, it was just like trial by fire. I don't even think that was a term. It was more like your. What is it? The right to passage into town is a demo failing?

ADRIANA: Oh, my God.

DIANA: And so what happened? I didn't...I didn't witness this with my eyes, but I remember I was about to get onto stage, and I hear someone behind me go, oh, there goes the router. When you hear something like that, you're like, I'm not even going to turn around because the lights are going to come up in, like, 5 seconds. And in my mind, I was like, there's no chance this works if someone just unplugged the router and what happened? But it's all right. I had another shot at not that pageant, but I had another shot to do it, and that was really nice. It worked out.

ADRIANA: That's so cool. Yeah. That's so exciting. Yeah. And, you know, like, one of the things that I admire about the fact that, like, you still do these pageants and that I really liked when I met you last year at KubeHuddle is the fact that, like, you lean into, like, your girliness in tech, because I think, like, I think a lot of girls are almost conditioned in tech to, like, not be girly because, you know, you gotta, like, be one of the boys and stuff and.

DIANA: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I definitely felt that when I was in grad school. If you saw, there's actually a video of me. I tweeted it a while back. It was like someone quoting, oh, you must have partied a lot in college. And then you see the video attached, and it's me, like, curled up in a ball in a big hoodie with my friends around. Everyone's, like, playing video games, and you pan to the girl in the corner, and I'm playing a harmonica with, like, my hair tied up, glasses, no makeup. And so I had my unglamorous moments, and I'm like, no, I'm gonna...

DIANA: you know, I'm a pretty feminine person, and I'm not gonna be apologetic about it, or at least I try not to be.

ADRIANA: Because why should we be apologetic for who we are?

DIANA: Yeah, yeah. And it never really, like, stood out to me that other people weren't like that until you brought it up to me that you're like, I'm gonna wear a dress.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

DIANA: And I was like, oh, I didn't even realize that other people weren't wearing dresses. I mean, I did, but it wasn't like, because, yeah, no one else is wearing a dress, and I won't wear a dress type of scenario. And I was like, wow, that really sucks, because that definitely is a thing.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, honestly, like, I never wear dresses to conferences, and for this conference, I decided I want to, like, embrace my....my....femmeness.

DIANA: Yes. And then she had, like, a statement...she had a statement skirt yesterday at her speak...at our speaker/organizer dinner.

ADRIANA: Yeah, I did a schoolgirl outfit thing going on.

DIANA: I think it was a skirt.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah. It was, like, kind of a lime. It was a lime green plaid skirt and then, like, kind of a brightish pink color. No, I know.

DIANA: I was surprised after, too.

TIM: This is why we did SIG-fashion.

DIANA: We were literally talking about this yesterday.

TIM: I've been talking about that for a couple years now.

DIANA: Oh, my gosh.

ADRIANA: There should be SIG-fashion and SIG-makeup.

DIANA: Yeah.

ADRIANA: We're talking about...

TIM: SIG-hair care, right?

ADRIANA: SIG-nails.

DIANA: So GitHub...

TIM: Yeah.

ADRIANA: Oh, so beautiful. Oh, there you go. Yeah, my nails. My nails. For this conference.

DIANA: Yeah, I think GitHub does a really good job at that. They actually have the press on nails.

ADRIANA: Oh, yeah, that's right. I remember those.

DIANA: Yeah, we need more of that. And we're talking about how we should have a makeup station at tech conferences where you can just glow up and have statement makeup based off of your company colors or not. Whatever.

ADRIANA: That could be fun. Yeah. I mean, because they have face painting stations.

DIANA: We were talking about that too.

ADRIANA: Come on.

DIANA: Because how do we get on that topic? Oh, you're talking about clown makeup. And how do we.

ADRIANA: I don't wear makeup because I feel like whenever I put it on, look. I look like a clown.

DIANA: Natural here.

ADRIANA: Yeah. I'm getting, like, looks from Hannah in the background.

DIANA: No, it is really funny, because Hannah, she has makeup on, and I feel like you two are just like a copy-paste of each other. And so if you did want to wear makeup, you see the mirror in front of you.

ADRIANA: I think Hannah's learned how to do my makeup now that works with my skin tone because my eyes are a little more inset than hers. So let's just say that that makeup experiment was quite interesting and yielded some very fun results.

DIANA: Well, we made it. We made it. Yeah.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

DIANA: I just thought of the idea of, like, you just putting on clown makeup right now. Like, we should just. Oh, my God.

ADRIANA: Like a clown for a conference.

DIANA: No, we have a...SIG-clown.

TIM: Oh, man. Right now you're gonna lose...you lose a lot of people on that one.

ADRIANA: Okay.

ADRIANA: We got. We got the thumbs down on that.

DIANA: Oh, my gosh. Companies. I actually really wanted this because someone brought it up to me. In case you don't know. I wear false lashes to a lot of conferences. Like, I love...No, I take hair and I glue it onto my eyelid.

ADRIANA: When you describe it that way, it just sounds so enticing. I know.

DIANA: It is. Yeah. And I just styled them differently every time.

ADRIANA: There you go.

DIANA: Sometimes I snip them. Sometimes, like, layers.

ADRIANA: I'm very scared of false lashes.

DIANA: Yeah. But I was saying, imagine, like, a company actually had that as swag, and they branded the lashes as swag. I would. I would be on that. It's such a good idea. We got the confirmation. We got an investor. All right, over here.

ADRIANA: Well, because, I mean, conference swag. Like, we've bitched about this before. The conference t-shirts. Anyone who's organizing a conference, for the love of God, and thank goodness. I would say, like, the last few KubeCons, Open Source Summits, at least made an effort to have, like, fitted and non-fitted t-shirts.

DIANA: Or at least smaller sizes available.

ADRIANA: Yeah, smaller sizes. And I prefer the fitted for myself because, I don't know, I like to look cute in my conference t-shirts. And, you know, I was at a thing, a work thing last year where they made these t-shirts, and they were really cool. And so I'm like, oh, I want one. And the guy who was taking orders he's like, what size? I'm like, well, do you have, like, extra small fitted? And he's like, nah, they're baggy, but you can just wear it around the house. I'm like, don't trigger me. Don't say this stuff to me. Like, I want to look cute around the house. Not look like a frigging bum when I'm around the house.

DIANA: But even then, why wouldn't you want us to wear it in public? For your thing?

ADRIANA: Yeah. So I was like, I was so, so angry. I'm like, forget it. I don't want a t-shirt. Like, no, no, it fits me or not.

DIANA: Yeah, yeah. I definitely feel like I end up getting left with the options of, like, oh, do you want a maxi skirt size t-shirt or a, like, clubbing dress? Like a maxi dress or, like, a clubbing dress size t-shirt based on whatever sizes they have left?

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah.

DIANA: Um, and that kind of sucks, but that is what it is.

ADRIANA: It does.

DIANA: Although sometimes I don't really blame them, because different, uh, what is it? Vendors, they have different cuts.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It is tricky. I've having had to order t-shirts for my teams before. I almost had a heart attack trying to find t-shirts that would appeal to, like, all the people, but, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I would like more conference swag. That's like, you know, a little bit of. A little more femininity. I mean, girls attend conferences, too.

DIANA: What?

ADRIANA: Well, I know, right?

DIANA: Oh, my goodness. Recently, I was at a conference, and I was talking to someone who said it was hilarious. The one time that they went to this, like, huge, several thousand people conference, and whoever the performer was, they were like, this one goes out to all the ladies. Yeah, I see all 14 of you. That's right. Yep. I see y'all. And mind you, there's, like, thousands of people, and he and this performer, like, they knew. They knew.

ADRIANA: Oh my God, he zeroed in on it.

DIANA: Yeah.

ADRIANA: That's hilarious.

DIANA: Yeah, no, that was great, though.

ADRIANA: It's like, the bathroom lines at conferences.

DIANA: Oh, yeah. Like, very. It's a good problem to have when the lines are longer.

ADRIANA: Yeah, that's true. Although I I have to say that I do enjoy, like, not spending forever.

DIANA: Oh, yeah.

ADRIANA: But, yes, I I agree. Longer bathroom lines means that we're getting more ladies out. And one thing that, like, I have liked about KubeHuddle is we've had a good percentage of the ladies at the conference, which is really good.

DIANA: I didn't want to be, like, predatorial, but I was like, oh, my gosh. These girls, like, dressed in things other than their company tees and jeans. And unfortunately, I wasn't able to hunt them down to, like, do a reel about it, but I would have loved to do that.

ADRIANA: Yeah. Yeah. We're kind of all over the place. Yeah, it's been a busy. Yeah, it's been busy organizing KubeHuddle. And this is, like, your second KubeHuddle that you've organized.

DIANA: It is. And this is your, like, your first and you. Yeah. In case y'all didn't know, she put together both panels.

ADRIANA: Yeah. And in case people don't know, Diana is based out of Denver, right?

DIANA: I am. I am. And I'm not as good of a climber than you, for sure. It sucks. I actually started. I did. I had a. I had a movement pass for a couple of months, and then I had, like, some stupid surgery.

DIANA: It was, like, super minor, but I also couldn't do physical things. And then I never get my nails done.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

DIANA: But of course, the one time that I decided to get into Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, I got my nails done, and so I just like, not doing all these activities that I wish I had done, but I'll come around to it eventually. SIG-climbers. SIG-climbers.

ADRIANA: Yeah, I think there is a SIG-climbing.

DIANA: Oh, really?

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, yeah, there is. There is. Although usually, like, I'm kind of a lone wolf boulderer, so. But I'll go, like, with a small crew for...actually, Marino's been my bouldering buddy for the last several conferences. Or last two, I guess. So for the last KubeCon and for Open Source Summit, I dragged him out early in the morning because that's the only time you can go when you're at a conference.

DIANA: Yeah, I sleep in.

ADRIANA: Yeah. I mean, normally I do, too. Like, you know...

DIANA: You have, like, so much self control and discipline while I'm here. Like, I sleep.

ADRIANA: I normally like to sleep in in the mornings, but for conferences, I'm like. I'm. I'm obsessed enough with bouldering that I'll just like, okay. I'll wake up at some God awful time to go.

DIANA: Is that, like, your thing?

ADRIANA: That is my thing. That's my, like, center. Yeah, yeah, that and capys. Yeah.

DIANA: Have you ever seen one?

ADRIANA: Yes. Okay, so here in Toronto, there is a zoo in one of the...we have, like, this big park not too far from here, and there are capys at the zoo, and they're just chilling. Yeah, yeah. And actually, as a birthday present, Hannah and my husband took me to see the capys and. But they didn't tell me where we were going, so, like, we went on the subway, and then they blindfolded me. And so when we exited the subway, I was, like, blindfolded walking to this park, having no freaking clue.

DIANA: I would be terrified.

ADRIANA: It was a little scary.

DIANA: Not...not because of them. Like, you know, if it was anyone else that I didn't know, I'd be like, okay, I might die. But no, even if it was someone I knew, I would get scared just because I'm, like, over sensitive when I can't be or, you know, when I lose some sense. I'm oversensitive in the worst way.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was really freaky. And having to trust people to, like, guide you and, like, oh, watch your step when you're walking through here and don't, like, step on dog crap.

DIANA: Yeah.

ADRIANA: Oh, yeah. They were trying. They tried to, like, disorient me. I kind of figured out what they were up to, like, partway in just because I know them, but it was still a great surprise. And, like, they...honestly, capys are, like, majestic creatures.

DIANA: They're, like, giant rat, but they're, like, so chill.

ADRIANA: They're so chill. They've got, like, this resting bitch face.

DIANA: Of, like, yo, have you seen the reels lately?

ADRIANA: Oh, my God. Like, I subscribe to very...to many capy IG accounts.

DIANA: Yeah, the ones are just sitting there in the tub, and there's water on them, and they're just.

ADRIANA: And they're like, ugh. Or, like, ducks, like, pecking at them, and they're like, come at me, bro.

DIANA: You know who I was actually really surprised had never seen a goat.

ADRIANA: Who?

DIANA: Kunal.

ADRIANA: Oh.

DIANA: Up until, like, last year, like, a couple months ago, he had never seen a goat. That's why I was curious. If you've ever seen a capy before.

ADRIANA: That's a fair question to ask. And they're a super common animal.

DIANA: I don't think I've even seen one, but, like, everyone knows what these animals look like.

ADRIANA: See it live. Yeah.

DIANA: But in. In practice, like, I'm thinking, have I ever seen one? I don't think I've ever seen. No, I've seen a goat for sure, but I've never seen a capy. Is this some state animal?

ADRIANA: If you're here in Toronto longer, I don't know when you leave, but there's the High Park Zoo, and they have capys.

DIANA: Are capys from Toronto?

ADRIANA: No, they're from South America.

DIANA: Oh. What?

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

DIANA: What are they doing here?

ADRIANA: Chillin in the zoo.

DIANA: Okay.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

DIANA: Like, wandering free. Because I don't get.

ADRIANA: No, no, they're not. No, they're. These ones aren't wandering free. Like, they have, like, different animals on display. I mean, yeah, they have, like, a, you know, kind of a pen, a fenced in pen area where they. They wander free. I think there's, like, a pair of them.

DIANA: Oh.

ADRIANA: And they just chill, and it's...

DIANA: But in South America, are they wandering free like the guinea pig?

ADRIANA: Yeah. So in. So in Rio, there's, like, a part of Rio called Lagoa where apparently they roam freely, which now I, like, I have renewed reason to return so that I can see them solely for that. Solely for that.

DIANA: I mean, morbid question, but are they. Do people eat of them the way. The way guinea pigs are over there, like, as common?

ADRIANA: Oh, that's a good question. I don't know. I I've never heard of people eating a capybara.

DIANA: Okay. I mean, I didn't know that people eat guinea pigs as commonly as they were until I met or I knew a friend who went to Peru for a hot minute.

ADRIANA: Oh.

DIANA: And they were just like, yeah, eating Guinea pics.

ADRIANA: But they're so cute and cuddly.

DIANA: Have you ever had balut?

ADRIANA: What?

DIANA: Balut?

ADRIANA: No, I don't think so.

DIANA: Yeah. How would you describe balut? In case I can't hear it, I'll repeat you.

TIM: So balut.

DIANA: Balut.

TIM: A preserved fertilized...

DIANA: There we go. Preserved fertilized duck egg. There it is.

TIM: And not fertilized, but, like, this duck is basically fully formed.

DIANA: Not always. I don't like the fully formed.

TIM: I said basically, but almost always. That's what you get, right? It's not a bloody yolk.

DIANA: It is.

TIM: You got feathers, you got bones, you got bill, you got the...

DIANA: You need to try it in, like, cooked in tamarind sauce.

TIM: No, stop.

DIANA: In tamarind sauce. You don't really taste all that.

TIM: I grew up around a lot of Filipinos. When I was coming up in my neighborhood in Virginia, I tried balut several times. Several ways, and not one of them was even close to palatable.

ADRIANA: Wow.

DIANA: I respect the fact that you're willing to try.

TIM: That's like, ever tried it like this? I'm like, y'all...

ADRIANA: So balut. So fertilized duck. Developed, Developed, Developed duck in egg.

DIANA: Yeah.

ADRIANA: So you eat it in the egg?

DIANA: Yeah. So you crack the top. So you take a little spoon, and you crack it on top, and then you take a shot of the broth like you would a shot of tequila.

ADRIANA: There is a broth.

DIANA: There's a broth.

TIM: It's not broth..

ADRIANA: It's the thing that the duck is in.

TIM: I mean, technically, I guess it's a broth. It's the duck juice.

HANNAH: What are you talking about? When people do, like, the duck eggs. When the duck is...

ADRIANA: Of course Hannah knows about this because of Instagram, right?

HANNAH: Probably YouTube.

ADRIANA: Sorry, sorry.

DIANA: Obviously not Instagram. Speaking of old, like old with social media, I remember back then, this was, like, maybe a decade ago, my niece was telling me how she was telling her friend something. Something Facebook. And her friend was like, who still uses Facebook? And she was like, my aunt. I was still in my twenties then. I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure they're like, well, my aunt. And they just made me sound like a dinosaur from that. And I was like, I'm pretty sure Facebook is still hip. Okay, now that I say it out loud...

ADRIANA: I mean, Hannah's on Facebook, but she does it to troll my husband. She calls it old people social media.

DIANA: It is still happening.

ADRIANA: You want to hear something depressing about feeling old? So at the speaker dinner yesterday, Renata and I were talking to somebody, and it happens that she's going to the same university that I went to for school. And I'm like, yeah, I graduated in 2001. And she's like, I was born in 2001. I just died right there. Yeah, yeah, that was uh...

DIANA: But I think a lot of things are changing in a very short amount of time. Or at least I saw myself that to make myself feel better, because then I'll talk to someone who now goes to my alma mater, and they'll say something. And I was like, oh, that building didn't even exist when I went there. But that's probably because it got built the next year that I left.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. We were trading stories of, yeah, that building was a parking lot when I was there.

DIANA: After I left is when it manifested.

ADRIANA: It's always better after you leave. Like, we had dumpy ass facilities at my school, and then it's like, oh, you get two new buildings. I'm like, great, thanks.

DIANA: So is there anything that's very specific that, you know, happened like that?

ADRIANA: Yeah, we got two new buildings after I left.

DIANA: I don't. I'm guessing those buildings got built after I left, but one of the colleges that I was in. So you have, like, your main college, which is UC San Diego, and then within that, you are split up into, like, Harry Potter houses.

ADRIANA: Okay.

DIANA: Which is, honestly, that's kind of what it was. Now that I'm thinking about it, that is exactly what it was. So my college was called 6th college. It didn't even have a name.

ADRIANA: That's sad.

DIANA: Yeah. And then by the time I left and I was like, 6th college and like, what is that? I actually don't know what it's called now.

ADRIANA: That's when you feel old. I know, I know. But, you know, it means that we've, you know, we've come up in the world. We have. We are like a fine wine.

DIANA: I'll take it. I'll take it. Especially, like, you've been around for a while, not like you're just very knowledgeable and I feel like you have a lot to share with the community. And so anytime I see you and just like, your talks are just walking around, I learn a lot from you.

ADRIANA: Thank you.

DIANA: Yes, yes. And I hope that one day I can pass on the same knowledge outside of people knowing I use Facebook. Are you not on...are you not on the Facebook Tim?

TIM: I still have a Facebook account because my water burger account is tied to it.

DIANA: Okay. Fair. Priorities.

TIM: And for the marketplace and because, like, some, because I still have messenger because of Jiu-Jitsu contact.

DIANA: Okay.

ADRIANA: I have Messenger. I have a Facebook account that I haven't logged in in ten years.

TIM: The only time I ever open up Facebook is to go to the marketplace.

DIANA: Yeah. Have you been using, like, have you ever used other platforms to buy or sell use things and had any weird experiences?

ADRIANA: No, because, so this is like, my oldness is like, this is too weird for me where I'm like, I don't want to, like, buy and sell stuff.

DIANA: Can we give Hazel a cameo?

ADRIANA: Oh, yeah, Hazel can make Hazel come. Make a cameo.

DIANA: Make a cameo, please. They probably can't hear you because we're mic'd.

ADRIANA: Yeah, we're mic'd. But, you know, everyone's like, photobomb video bombed.

DIANA: Hazel's glowed up today.

ADRIANA: Super, super fancy.

DIANA: Oh, yeah. You two are matching.

ADRIANA: For anyone who's listening. They're not going to get the visual experience of Hannah and Hazel matching on the green.

DIANA: Yes.

ADRIANA: Super swank.

DIANA: And then just imagine people who are only watching, not hearing the sound.

ADRIANA: I know.

DIANA: Yeah.

ADRIANA: Like this, this conversation is just like gone everywhere, which I love because I think, you know, one of the things about tech is, like, sometimes we take it too seriously and I think we need to have more fun. I mean, we have a mental health panel going on later today.

DIANA: Is it coming up? Do we need a...yeah.

ADRIANA: Well, I guess we need to wrap up.

TIM: I was just going to walk over. Them like, where are this?

TIM: Yeah, you know, the girlies, they're doing the selfies for the camera, for the social medias.

DIANA: For The Facebook. We'll email you.

ADRIANA: This is, like, the most off the cuff, like, episode of Geeking Out, and it's, like, all kinds of wonderful, and I'm embracing the wackiness of it. So since we need to wrap up, because we have a mental health panel that I'm live streaming soon, do you have any words of wisdom for our audience or hot takes?

DIANA: Hot takes. Hot takes. Be hot. I mean, I didn't really love it.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

DIANA: I didn't really think of that as a articulated thing that we do, but ever since, I mean, I. I said before, I'll say it again. Leanne Lee. She literally said this during our all women's panel last year. She just turns to me and she was like, I. What did she say exactly? She was like, I admire your courage to be hot and smart, and those are just things that I didn't really like...those are not adjectives I affiliate myself with in the tech space. Like, I'll have my, like, daily affirmations or whatever. Yeah, the fact that someone said it out loud. No, but the fact that someone said it out loud, I was like, no. If that's what you think about me, then that is definitely, like, what I feel about other women and more, and in some cases, even men who are, like, amazing allies towards us.

ADRIANA: I love it. I love it. That's okay.

DIANA: Be hot.

ADRIANA: Yeah, be hot. Yeah.

DIANA: Inner hotness or outer, who knows?

ADRIANA: Or. Yeah, that's true.

DIANA: That's true.

ADRIANA: Awesome. Awesome. All right, well, thank you, Diana, for geeking out with me today, y'all don't forget to subscribe, y'all. I'm getting fun of so badly.

DIANA: I don't even know what to do.

ADRIANA: Y'all, don't forget to subscribe. And be sure to check out the show notes for additional resources and to connect with us and our guests on social media.

DIANA: Until next time, peace out and geek out.

ADRIANA: Geeking Out is hosted and produced by me, Adriana Villela. I also compose and perform the theme music on my trusty clarinet. Geeking Out is also produced by my daughter, Hannah Maxwell, who, incidentally, designed all of the cool graphics. Be sure to follow us on all the socials by going to bento.me/geekingout.

About our guest:

Lian (she/they) is a Developer Advocate and community organizer, probably best known for creating Kuberoke, the first and only Kubernetes Karaoke Community. Earlier in her career, Lian worked as a community manager and quality manager for various browser games. In recent years, she moved into the Cloud Native space, working as a Cloud Native Engineer, and then as an Engineering Manager. In October 2021, she turned her passion for community and developer happiness into a profession, by breaking into Developer Advocacy for Developer Tools. Lian is also an active member in various communities, including being part of the organization teams of DevOpsDays and ServerlessDays Amsterdam, as well as the ServerlessDays core team. In 2023, she was elected Technical Lead for the CNCF Technical Advisory Group (TAG) on Cloud Native App Delivery, focused on outreach and enabling new members for the TAG.

Find our guest on:

• LinkedIn
• X (Twitter)

Find us on:

• All of our social channels are on bento.me/geekingout
• All of Adriana's social channels are on bento.me/adrianamvillela

Show notes:

• KubeHuddle 2024
• KubeHuddle on YouTube
• YAML is a superset of JSON
• TAG App Delivery group on CNCF Slack
• Join CNCF Slack here
• Kuberoke
• DevOps Days Amsterdam 2024
• KCD Munich 2024
• Office Space (Movie - 1999)
• JSConf Asia
• What is an unconference?

Additional notes:

• Lian at KubeCon EU 2024
• Lian at the Beyond Coding podcast
• Lian at the KubeHuddle Mental Health panel (Geeking Out Episode 28)

Transcript:

ADRIANA: Hey, y'all, welcome to Geeking Out, the podcast about all geeky aspects of software delivery, DevOps, Observability, reliability, and everything in between. I'm your host, Adriana Villela, coming to you from Toronto, Canada. Geeking out with me today is Lian Li. Welcome.

LIAN: Hi. Thanks for having me.

ADRIANA: I'm so excited to have you on. And we are actually recording at KubeHuddle today.

LIAN: Yay.

ADRIANA: Yay. So very exciting. So we are actually both in Toronto. So as we...before we get started into the meaty bits, I always like to start off with my guests answering some lightning round questions. So are you a lefty or a righty?

LIAN: Righty.

ADRIANA: Do you prefer iPhone or Android?

LIAN: I have an iPhone. I prefer...it's more practical.

ADRIANA: Fair enough, fair enough. It's funny, some guests are like, no, this is it. Like, I am staunchly in favor of this or the other. And others are like...eh?

LIAN: I'm almost embarrassed that I have an iPhone, but I have so many Apple devices. Just made sense. But I don't. I don't want to. I don't want people to think I'm a cult member.

ADRIANA: Fair enough. I get it, I get it. Okay, next question. Mac, Linux, or windows? Which do you prefer?

LIAN: I guess I just answered my question.

ADRIANA: I think so.

LIAN: I was very against MacBooks a long time, but then I had one and it was actually...I had to give a presentation. It was so much easier on a MacBook with Keynote and everything. So since then I've been like, it's easier. Why make your life hard just for street cred?

ADRIANA: Yeah, fair enough, fair enough. Okay, next question. What's your favorite programming language?

LIAN: I have to say it's probably JavaScript. There's a lot of things that are weird with JavaScript, but it's the first language that I really understood. Yeah, that's, you know, it's like your first love. Yeah, you always feel very special about that one. And I just think that the way that, you know, the, the whole events are working, it's just really cool.

ADRIANA: Nice. Awesome. My first language was BASIC.

LIAN: Oh, wow.

ADRIANA: So from the olden days.

LIAN: I wasn't gonna say old, but I mean, does.

ADRIANA: Anyone even code in BASIC anymore?

LIAN: Like, I don't know, but the people who are making a lot of money, I think because there's no one there anymore, I can maintain it.

ADRIANA: Yeah, we are an extinct or endangered species. I don't think I could even remember how to code in BASIC anymore.

LIAN: I've never been able to do it.

ADRIANA: All right, next question. Do you prefer dev or ops?

LIAN: Well, hmm. I think at this point I prefer dev. I haven't been, like, developing production code for a long time, and just the other day I was just solving an engineering problem and it was. Made me so happy really, going in there, reading documentation, finding something out, coding something, and then it works. It really reminded me where I got into this business in the first place. That's so awesome.

ADRIANA: I love that. Like, honestly, what makes me happy is like whenever I'm, like, doing actual dev for my job, like, if I go through stretches where I'm not doing it, I actually get really depressed.

LIAN: Yeah, I can. I can imagine. For sure. Yeah. This is so much fun. It gives you that sense of satisfaction.

ADRIANA: Yes, yes. And even if, like, you're the only one who knows about the problem that you solved, then it's like, I did it!

LIAN: You also look at your code afterwards and just be like, oh, that was. Yeah, yeah, yeah, they did something well.

ADRIANA: Yeah, totally, totally relate. Okay, next question. Do you prefer JSON or YAML?

LIAN: What are these questions? Is tabs versus space is the last...Okay, that is JSON, I guess JSON, because again, JavaScript world. Yeah. But also you don't have these weird indentation things where, you know, like, because it made an indenture error, then you. YAML is invalid. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That doesn't really happen with JSON. Probably that. Although I think YAML is a subset of JSON.

ADRIANA: Yeah, true.

LIAN: I know. Oh my God.

ADRIANA: I know. Which is a bit of a mind fuck.

LIAN: No. Right?

ADRIANA: Like, really, you're related?

LIAN: Yeah. So really there is no real answer to this, because YAML is JSON.

ADRIANA: That's true. That's true. That's a good one. Okay, next question. Spaces or tabs?

LIAN: Spaces. Spaces. I did not. I was pro tabs for a long time, but then someone explained to me that was basis...It's better for accessibility, apparently. I forgot why, but, you know, that's good enough for me.

ADRIANA: Yeah, I was team tabs for a while, but then I converted to spaces.

LIAN: Yeah, and just stick with it, whatever you choose.

ADRIANA: Exactly, exactly.

LIAN: Okay, is the next question VIM versus EMACS? Because I don't have an opinion on that.

ADRIANA: No, it's not. It's not. Okay...do you prefer to consume content through video or text?

LIAN: Oh, um, it depends, but probably video mostly. Sometimes though, you know, I. I want to take my time. That's when I want to read something.

ADRIANA: Yeah, fair enough. Okay, final question. What is your superpower?

LIAN: Oh, okay. Hey, I actually have a podcast myself that is about superpower, like, basically what superpowers people have.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah.

LIAN: But I only recorded like three episodes. Don't...don't watch. What's my superpower? I think I am...so when people ask me what I do for work and they're not, like, in this...sphere...space...I sometimes tell them I'm a professional friend maker. And I think that's what I'm good at is like making people feel at ease and let them have them open up about things that they love and they're passionate about, about their problems, which I think is a big part of DevRel.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah.

LIAN: So I feel like that is probably what also, like, sets me apart from other people in tech.

ADRIANA: That's awesome. And you know what? Like, I met you last year at KubeHuddle, and I remember, like, right away feeling at ease, chatting with, you.

LIAN: I do have a couple of tricks for that. It's not just like, I'm not like a natural people...you know, please or something like that. But I do feel like, especially in this industry, that if you really make an effort to get to know people, you can feel that people are just really open to that and they really want to have that relationship. It's just that for some reason, we're kind of shy about it.

ADRIANA: Yeah, I agree. You know, like, one of the things I always think about, and I think I've read this somewhere where, like, introverts just want, like, an extroverted person to adopt them. And for me, like, I'm naturally introverted. And so I love it when I see someone who has a friendly face where I feel like they're super approachable and it's like, oh, come adopt me. Yeah.

LIAN: And then, like, you can almost become not an extrovert, but you can get into that same energy also. Yeah, I love to do that after conferences, like, just like, organize a small dinner, for example, there's like, maybe 20 people. Not everyone, obviously. And that's when you can, like, create so many great, you know, relationships. And I love to also then bring in new people, especially, like, maybe there's some...someone who's been at the first conference.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: Was very new into this. And I love to, like, bring them into, like, a group of people who maybe, like, are already a bit further along in their career and, like, these small relationships, like, these small things, either the most valuable.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: Events like this.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. That's awesome. And I think it's a good segue too, into, like, some of the stuff that you've been doing recently. So. Yeah. Why don't you tell folks, like, some, because you, you've made some big changes in your life. Yeah.

LIAN: So, yeah, I've been in tech for most of my professional life, like 15 plus years, and seen a lot. But it is...it can be a grind. It can be very demanding, especially in DevRel. Lots of travel, lots of...it's like people you have to be on all the time. Also at conferences like this, people will approach you because they want to talk about your product, whatever, and you just have to always be approachable, friendly, you know, like, always be there and. Yeah, end of last year, November, I was just, like, really close to burnout, which is something we're going to talk about later.

ADRIANA: We are.

LIAN: And I just decided to take a break.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: So I quit my job, and, and at the same time, I was doing, like, as a hobby, like amateur stage performance stuff. So I was doing improv theater in the ensemble of a musical group, and that was a lot of fun. And I just kind of, like, decided to just do that for a while.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: The entire time I was thinking this is like a vacation. Yeah, eventually I have to go back to tech.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: But, you know, at some point, I was like, I don't actually have to do anything. You know, I can just do whatever I want to do.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: And, you know, as long as it's fun and enjoy it and, you know, like, I can still pay my mortgage and everything, it's gonna be fine. So I have been basically doing only stage performance since November, which is now, I don't know when it's gonna come out, but, like, about half a year almost. And I really enjoy it. I still keep with the tech industry a little bit.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: Like, I go to conferences. Yeah, I'm with the technical advisory group of the CNCF on app delivery. So I'm doing some community stuff because I really enjoy community stuff, but I am very happy to not have to always chase the next thing, which is, like, a big part of, I think, what we do in startups as vendors in the Cloud Native space, DevRel specifically. So, yeah, it's taking a bit of a break, but also, like, reorientating myself in the world.

ADRIANA: Yeah. Yeah. That's so awesome. And so, like, I'm curious for, you know, you've been part of, like, ensemble cast, so is it like a musical ensemble? So, like, did you already have, like, a background in singing? I mean, you. You do like, Kuberoke, right? That...that's like one of your...that's one of your...

LIAN: That's my claim to fame.

ADRIANA: Your claim to fame.

LIAN: Yeah, exactly. I mean, I did...I always loved...okay, I always wanted to be, like, an actor.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: Even as a child. But my parents were not very pro because they're, like, they're Chinese parents, so they're very much, like, you should learn something proper and, like, have a proper job. But I always was very musical. I play, like, multiple musical instruments. I was, like, singing in, like, church choirs, and then the whole karaoke thing started, and, I mean, I'm not a strong dancer, but I do okay. So this is, like, an amateur group. So they were doing, like, boot camps, musical theater bootcamps. You can just try it.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: And then they were running open auditions, and to my surprise, honestly, no one was as surprised as I was. I got into the ensemble.

ADRIANA: Oh, cool.

LIAN: And, I mean, I wasn't...we were all singing, but we weren't all mic'd, so I didn't have a mic, and it was just basically dancing. And one of the things that I really found very interesting is that in that theater world, and I can't speak if that's the same everywhere, but, like, in this particular group, the...it's...it might not seem super diverse in that sense, because it's all about being at the right place at the right time. So obviously going to the auditions, and already people may not like you for whatever reason, like, you remind them of your...of their ex-wife or something that can happen, and it's totally reasonable for them to then say, I don't know...I don't like the vibe or whatever that happens. And I've just gotten really lucky that I was in the right place at the right time. So now, basically, in the ensemble group, I got a featured dancing spot.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: My dance is not that great, but they didn't have enough men, so I was basically playing a guy.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: And now I'm doing another musical, which is Monty Python Spamalot.

ADRIANA: Oh, cool!

LIAN: I love it. So fun. And this similar thing, like, the...because I was there and, like, standing in for Lancelot because he missed some rehearsals.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: They basically asked me, like, if I wanted to understudy for Lancelot.

ADRIANA: Oh, cool.

LIAN: So now I'm getting, like, one show where I can play Lancelot, and I'm freaking out over it, of course, because it's gonna be, like, a proper kind of leading.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: Role. But on the other hand, I was really freaking out, like, feeling all the imposter syndrome stuff, you know, like, because I'm not trained in any way. And a lot of the people, even though it's amateur, they're very good. They have a lot of experience, and they're like, trained. But then I realized, you know, when new speakers come up to me because I also do speaking workshops, I always tell them, you know, if the program committee wants you, there's no reason for you to doubt yourself.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: Because they're making the decision. They look at your talk, they maybe look at your speaking experience, and they will say, we think this is great. Why don't you do it?

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: And I was, like, just basically telling me the same thing. Like, if the director thinks that I can do it, I can probably do it.

ADRIANA: Right. Right.

LIAN: You just, like, need to show up and do the work and eventually hope you will...it's always a mix between luck and hard work.

ADRIANA: Yeah. Yeah. That's so cool. Yeah. And it's so many parallels with tech, right? Ridiculous.

LIAN: 100% - it's so...there are some things that are very similar, like, you know, the speaking and also the trying to convey something to me. Like, it's always been public speaking has always been stage performance to me.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: Because you're really trying to entertain people. It's not just about giving information, but, like, giving information in a way that really engages.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: Like, makes people feel things.

ADRIANA: Yeah. Yeah.

LIAN: So that. I definitely see that in there. And what I also learned, which was very cool, when you're doing rehearsals, it's not about knowing every single line by heart, always, but it's more like, the director will give you, like, specific directions. Like, I want you to, like, be that kind of character. I want you to, like, convey that kind of feeling.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: And then, because on opening night, or, like, all the performances that you have, you will never have a perfect...everyone remembers all of their lines. Everyone stands in exactly the right way, and, like, the lighting is perfect. That will never happen. So instead, we are trying to, like, give everyone enough information that they can be autonomous.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: And make the right decision at the right time, knowing what is it that the director wants from me.

ADRIANA: Right.

LIAN: And I was thinking about. Actually, I'm thinking about, like, a talk about this, where if we did this for very critical situations, let's say, like, feature releases or deployments, you know, instead of just, like, having this process and no one's allowed to move, like, deviate from it.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: Give everyone the knowledge and the autonomy and the power to do the best thing that they can in their role and just, like, trust that you will bring it together, because in the end, a show is only as good as its weakest cast member.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: Everyone needs to help each other out and make sure that if I see something's missing, right of me, I'm not waiting for the person to step up. I can do it. I'll just step up and bring it together. I really love that.

ADRIANA: That's awesome.

LIAN: That was a long story.

ADRIANA: That's so cool, though. And I guess also as part of that, because no two shows are the same. Like, there's some, I guess, sometimes improvisation that needs to take place because of the unexpected things.

LIAN: Exactly. And sometimes that is the best part of the show. So, like, in Cinderella, which is, you know, you would think that Cinderella is, like, a pretty boring, kind of, like, Disney princess kind of show, but it's actually, like, the musical is actually very funny, and there's a lot of space, especially for the characters, to improvise a little bit and to really get into who their character is.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: You know, like, Cinderella has two step sisters. One is kind of, like, not very smart.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: But ditzy. And the other one is a bit more. She, like, she has a character arc. She becomes a bit more of a friend person.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: And then they were different every single show. Like, they, like, there were small scenes where they were supposed to react and they reacted differently every single time. And over time, we would also. Because we had six shows in four days.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: So by the third show, we would...we would know, like, this works very well with the audience, so let's, like, build on top of that a little bit. Every ensemble member also got, like, a little bit of a tiny backstory.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: We had this, like, huge marketplace scene, and there was this, like, situation where one guy had, like, four girlfriends and they were finding out about each other.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: So even though they were, like, background characters.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: They had their own thing going, which made it seem much more, like, alive. Yeah.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah.

LIAN: Multidimensional. And I think that's kind of, like, what I'm feeling with tech also is, like, just because you're not always in doing the most important things or always in the foreground making the big decisions doesn't mean that there's nothing that you can fulfill, you know, in your own little corner. Yeah.

ADRIANA: Oh, so great!

LIAN: It's so fun! Honestly, if you can do any kind of, like, stage performance stuff, I highly recommend it because it's so much fun to just go out there. Yeah.

ADRIANA: And get out of your own...kind of...head.

LIAN: Right. Different person. That's a lot of fun because also that will tell you, like, you get to try things and maybe you will also see, oh, I actually enjoy being a bit more extroverted in these circumstances.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: And you meet a lot of fun people.

ADRIANA: That's true. That's true. Well, you know, I have to say, like, so earlier today, I attended your workshop at KubeHuddle on owning the stage.

LIAN: Yes.

ADRIANA: And it was like, a series of, like, improv exercises, which were so fun because, so my daughter Hannah had taken when she was younger, she took a bunch of, like, improv classes, and so I was familiar with some of the exercises because I'd see her showcases.

LIAN: Nice.

ADRIANA: And I'm like, oh, my God, how cool is it to, like, be on the other side of it, not being a spectator, but a participant.

LIAN: Yeah.

ADRIANA: And it was just so much fun to just, like, do goofy things and, like, you created such a safe space for everyone, and it, like, I. You know, if you ever take your workshop on the road, like, I hope you do, because it was...it was great.

LIAN: Thank you. I will give the same workshop in DevOps Days Amsterdam.

ADRIANA: Oh, nice.

LIAN: And KCD Munich, I think. I mean, it's very different from a tech conference normally, so I'm really glad that, you know, the people who came were very into it because it was a bit like, you know, we were moving and dancing and. Yeah, that's not very comfortable for a lot of...even when we were, like, in the ensemble, in the musical theater cast of people who want to do musical theater, even then, sometimes it's awkward.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: You're not, like, that comfortable with each other yet. Like, it's always the thing about vulnerability and. Am I comfortable showing that side of me? Yeah, because this is a...when we're on stage, and this is something that I'm struggling with a lot when we're on stage, as a public speaker, you're supposed to be serious.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: You're supposed to be trustworthy and, like, professional.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah.

LIAN: And that is true to some extent, but I think that it doesn't hurt to be a bit goofy and, you know, like, letting loose. I think that works again with the creating this, like, as you say, like, a safe space or just, like. Like, make people feel at ease. Like, let's not take this too serious. Yeah, yeah, I think that's. You're setting the tone when you're on stage, right? Everyone's looking to you, so...Yeah, I think it really. It really just helps to do that. And, like, not taking tech that seriously as a whole is also something that I learned. It's like, you know, like, it's...it's...it's good if you like what you do and you're taking, like, what you do seriously, but in the end, there's much more to life than tech.

ADRIANA: Yeah. Yeah, I completely agree. And I think bringing a bit of levity into tech because, like, I like, as somebody with ADHD who gets bored, like, so easily, like, I have a hard time sitting through a talk.

LIAN: Right.

ADRIANA: So, like, the fact that your workshop had us up and about and doing things, like, those 45 minutes went by so fast. And, like, for me, as a speaker, when I give a talk, I want to bring, like, my energy and, like, funness to the talk. Like, I've done...I did one where, like, my co-speaker and I did a skit as part of our talk and then another one where we recorded a video, like, in Office Space style, just to break it up a bit. So it's kind of nice to see, like, you know...

LIAN: Yeah.

ADRIANA: You're doing something similar, like, bringing that funness and breaking the monotony out of tech is, like, tech is fun.

LIAN: It is.

ADRIANA: Why shouldn't we make our talks fun?

LIAN: I know. Why are we trying. This is so weird to me sometimes. Like, why are we trying to make it less fun, more boring, more, like, harder?

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: I think there's, like, this gatekeeping maybe also going on where we're trying to make it seem harder than it actually is.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: Programming, I think. Not saying it's easy, but it's not difficult. It's not, like, complicated, actually. Like, you can learn it. And I know a lot of people learned that, you know, in a bootcamp in a couple of weeks, and it's just like, maybe by using less, like, complicated words, like, technical terms, make it more approachable. And, like, also for my workshop, I really want...because there's this whole other thing about diversity, which, you know, you had a panel about this as well, where, let's say, women, that's my experience, are not encouraged to speak up, especially your experience as a woman or as a person of color. You're asked often to hide it because no one wants to hear it. People are tired of it. They don't want to listen to it. So there's a big part of you that you always feel like you can't really show because it's something that people don't want to, you know, don't want to talk about.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: I want also for people to just feel comfortable to take that space again.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: And to be that weird version of themselves.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: Very unique to everyone. Like, it doesn't matter if you're, like, diverse in that sense. Like, diversity, to me, is more about, like, what is something that you bring to the table that hasn't existed there before. And in theater, diversity looks very different because, like, for example, in the English speaking theater scene in Amsterdam, there's a lot of people who you see everywhere, which is very similar to tech also. Tech conferences. Yeah, you see the same people everywhere. It gets a bit monotonous after a while.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: But it's also for the same reasons. Like, the producers of those musicals, they're like, we know this person. You work very well with that person.

ADRIANA: Right.

LIAN: We know they're very talented and hardworking, so we're just gonna, you know, not even cast. We're just gonna put them into their role again.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

LIAN: And they are much more women in musical theater, and there's much more, like, queer people in musical theater, but that doesn't mean it's diverse, because now you have...even though they tick the boxes, they have the platform. They're there all the time. There's a lot of other very talented people who we don't know yet who don't get the same chances because, you know, those spots already filled. So that is a huge parallel that I see to tech, and unfortunately, very surprising to me, it seems that they're not as aware of it as we are in tech.

ADRIANA: Oh, that's so interesting.

LIAN: Right. I thought it was very surprising to me as well. Yeah, there's a lot of, like, there's actually some sexism and racism and, you know, homophobia, transphobia in musical theater, which is, like, really surprising.

ADRIANA: That's so surprising. Yeah, yeah.

LIAN: But, you know, like, it's. That maybe is also just a misconception.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah.

LIAN: Every artist is, like, super progressive.

ADRIANA: Right, right. Wow. Damn, that's pretty wild.

LIAN: But I do have the experience coming from tech now, so.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So now you bring a fresh perspective, which is cool. And, you know, just going back to what you were saying about, like, you know, casting directors choosing people that they're familiar with, or even, like, conference. You know, when you're. When you're on a program committee for selecting speakers for a conference, that, you know, like, you have this bias of, like, oh, my God, I know this person. And they're, like, super cool.

LIAN: Exactly.

ADRIANA: And so, like. And I've found myself on program committees the last, you know, in the last several months, and so I'm trying, like, really hard to, like, make sure that I, you know, put those biases aside, because it can be so easy to fall into those habits and give, like, new speakers a chance. Like, one of the cool things about KubeHuddle is, like, we've got so many students attending, and one of the student speakers, like...what...one of the students was a speaker. Which is very cool. And I think they gave a talk about, like, navigating, like, you know, these big, like, tech events and whatnot, which is so cool. Like, giving, like, these new voices so that they can. They can come up in the industry and have, like, a platform.

LIAN: Yeah, exactly. So, like, exactly. Those, like, new perspectives that you couldn't get from, you know, like, a famous speaker who's gone...been around for a long time. Yeah, yeah. And I'm also...I also organize conferences myself, and I know that you always have to find a balance between, like, you need some big names to pull in, sponsorships to pull in attendees.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: And then you, you know, you want to have, like, maybe an open call for paper so people can just, like, send in, and then maybe you reserve, like, five spots for entirely new speakers you've never spoken before, people who would never get a chance to speak. And then, you know, there's always the risk that it's not a great talk. But you know what? A lot of talks aren't great. You don't know before. Yeah, but I think, again, like, if you think about it, if you make conscious decisions about this beforehand, it just makes a lot of things easier, because then you don't have to scramble after the fact when you're like, oh, shit, we have 40 speakers, and, like, none of them are women.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, like, yeah, exactly.

LIAN: It always happens. And again, there's never going to be the perfect anything. Like, you're never going to have the perfect lineup. So, you know, sometimes you have the same topic, and there's three speakers. One of them is a white guy. One of them is, like, a non binary person who's very famous, and another person, another third person is maybe a first time speaker.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: So maybe you will make, like, a biased decision for whatever reason, and I think that's fine, as long as you're aware this was a biased decision. And maybe I want to, you know, like, mitigate that somewhere else.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, that's also fine. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I think at the end of the day, like, just having a space, too, where you can, like, give...give someone a chance. You know, you and I have been doing the speaking circuit for a while. We had to start somewhere, right? Someone had to give us a chance.

LIAN: Exactly. And I was very lucky because my first talk was at a...at an unconference, which is something that you're also having here, which is great, because, like, I would have not dared to go up on stage. I would have never thought that anyone wanted to listen to me, but because at an unconference, you hand in your proposal and the audience votes on it, I was like, oh, my God.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: Then from there, it was recorded, and the organizers from JSConf Asia saw the talk, and they invited me over to Singapore. And then I didn't realized this is, like, a proper career that you could do.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: I was extremely lucky that I got that chance. And I feel like now I almost feel that the need, responsibility to give that. That feeling, because I was an okay engineer. It was fine. But I think once I got into public speaking, that's when I really felt like, this is my space, this is what I'm supposed to do here, that life changing experience for me. So I hope that other people will feel the same way about the public speaking or something. Something else that they love.

ADRIANA: Oh, that's so amazing. Well, thank you. We're coming up on time, but before we finish up, do you have any words of advice that you want to impart on our audience members or hot takes? Either or works.

LIAN: I mean, like, I guess what I've been saying is just, like, do what you want to do. Don't feel weird about, you know, being weird. Um, it's...it's more fun. Life is more fun when you're weird.

ADRIANA: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Embrace the weird. I love it. Cool. Well, thank you, Lian, so much for geeking out with me today.

LIAN: Thanks for having me.

ADRIANA: Thank you. Yeah, I'm glad we're able to track you down, because normally, like, you're based out of Amsterdam and you're running about, and so I'm like, hey, you're gonna be a KubeHuddle.

LIAN: Yeah, I'm not in North America that much because it is kind of exhausting.

ADRIANA: It is a very exhausting trip. So I. Yeah, I totally don't blame you. Well, thank you again. Y'all don't forget to subscribe and be sure to check the show notes for additional resources and to connect with us and our guests on social media. Until next time...

LIAN: Peace out and geek out.

ADRIANA: Geeking Out is hosted and produced by me, Adriana Villela. I also compose and perform the theme music on my trusty clarinet. Geeking Out is also produced by my daughter, Hannah Maxwell, who, incidentally, designed all of the cool graphics. Be sure to follow us on all the socials by going to bento.me/geekingout.

About our guest:

Nancy Chauhan is and Engineer & Developer Advocate at LocalStack. She is a CNCF Ambassador. She the founder of the Women in Cloud Native community to encourage diversity and participation of women in tech. She is also part of the CNCF's TAG Sustainability group, resulting from her interest in sustainability in tech. Off duty she loves to play with her cats and loves traveling, exploring new places, culture, and history.

Find our guest on:

• LinkedIn
• X (Twitter)
• Web site

Find us on:

• All of our social channels are on bento.me/geekingout
• All of Adriana's social channels are on bento.me/adrianamvillela

Show notes:

• CNCF Ambassador Program
• Women in Cloud Native
• CNCF Technical Advisory Groups (TAGs)
• TAG Environmental Sustainability
• KubeHuddle
• Kepler Project (CNCF)
• Cloud Native Sustainability Week
• Jakarta, Indonesia is sinking
• The Impact of Data Centers on Climate Change
• Green Software Foundation (GSF)
• If you'd like to host your own sustainability meetup, comment here

Additional notes:

• Join CNCF Slack
• Join the official cncf-women group on CNCF Slack
• Sustainability Week 2024 group on CNCF Slack
• Environmental Sustainability whitepaper
• Women in Cloud Native Channel on YouTube
• Marino Wijay's episode on Geeking Out
• KubeHuddle DEI panel promo

Transcript:

ADRIANA: Hey, y'all, welcome to Geeking Out, the podcast about all geeky aspects of software delivery, DevOps, Observability, reliability, and everything in between. I'm your host, Adriana Villela, coming to you from Toronto, Canada. And geeking out with me today is Nancy Chauhan. Welcome, Nancy!

NANCY: Hey, thank you so much, Adriana. I'm so...I'm super excited for this because I've seen your videos and it's just amazing.

ADRIANA: Oh, my God. I'm so excited to have you here today. And where are you calling from, Nancy?

NANCY: I am from calling from Bangalore, India. It's quite hot here.

ADRIANA: Oh, my God. Yeah, we were just talking...

NANCY: It's very hot.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah. What was the temperature you were saying earlier?

NANCY: It was...it's 38 degrees Celsius. And that's kind of sad because Bangalore is known for the most, you know, like a place in India which has the most moderate temperature, which never crosses, like, 27 or 28 degrees. So it's kind of sad. I mean, global warming and the...has really hit it. I was just, you know, going through the articles and I was really curious that why is it happening? And the reasons are, like, part of the reason is, like, definitely, like, all the environmental changes which are happening. Yeah.

ADRIANA: Yeah, it's so depressing because, like, even in Toronto, like, we've been having, I mentioned earlier when we were chatting beforehand that, like, our summers have gotten hotter. Our winters are practically non-existent. Like, this winter we got snow, but it was like, it's such a wild temperature fluctuation. So you'll have, like, below zero one day and then the next day it's above zero. So any snow that would have fallen melts. And I think we might have had maybe one week consistently below zero. And, like, that's so weird.

NANCY: That's weird. Definitely. That's weird. And this is something which is really important to be considered about, I mean, this topic. Definitely.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah. And I definitely want to dig into that more because I think there's some really awesome stuff that we can dig into around that. Before we do that, I'm going to start with some icebreaker/lightning round questions. I say "slash lightning round" because sometimes they go fast, sometimes they don't. So we'll see how it rolls.

NANCY: Let's see.

ADRIANA: Yeah. All right, first question. Are you a lefty or a righty?

NANCY: I am a righty.

ADRIANA: All right. Do you prefer iPhone or Android?

NANCY: I love Android. I mean, iPhone. I don't like it. It just bounds you to so many things. I mean, just the same ecosystem, but...yeah, yeah.

ADRIANA: All right, cool. Next question. Do you prefer Mac, Linux or Windows?

NANCY: Mac/Linux. Yeah.

ADRIANA: All right, favorite programming language?

NANCY: Python, Go? It keeps changing, I guess, but, yeah, that's something which I'm doing. Yeah.

ADRIANA: Awesome. Awesome. Yeah, it's interesting with programming languages as you, like, pick up new ones, you're like, oh, maybe this is my favorite one. Or there's still the old standby that you love no matter what.

NANCY: Yeah. Because that's what your first language was when you started coding. I mean, that's also there.

ADRIANA: Yeah, that's true. Yeah, there's the nostalgia for that. I completely agree. My first language for...people have heard this podcast...they know my first language was BASIC. Yeah. It was like, I think I first touched it in, like, I want to say 1989 or 1990. So it was like in the olden days. Not the oldest olden days, but it is still like. I mean, I don't even know anyone who writes code in BASIC anymore, but, yeah, I feel nostalgic. Yeah. Okay, next question. Do you prefer Dev or Ops?

NANCY: I prefer Dev. I know, it's both. I mean. Yeah.

ADRIANA: And that's...that's a valid answer, too. You like both. Yeah. Next question. Do you like JSON or YAML?

NANCY: That's a good question. I mean, that's...so I'm going to say, JSON, because I've struggled a lot with YAML. I mean, with all those Kubernetes manifests. I struggled my lifetime, so. Yeah, I don't know. That was like the moment you mentioned YAML and that came in my head. Yeah. And I was like...

ADRIANA: Oh, yeah, it's like PTSD. Yeah, it's funny. The...the people who hate YAML, it's like. Yeah, it's...it's...it's from all those times where you had, like, broken YAML files that caused you, like, hours and hours of pain debugging over a space. Yeah, yeah, I feel your pain. Next question. Spaces or tabs?

NANCY: Tabs. Yeah.

ADRIANA: All right, two more questions left. Do you prefer to consume content through video or text?

NANCY: I think text, although I create content around videos, but I prefer to do when it comes to me, I like text more.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fair enough, fair enough. Yeah. I'm the same way. I do create some video like this, but I'm a text person, even.

NANCY: I like, you know, learning through hands on. That's like the best way. And that's why I like reading as well. I mean, if you have tutorials, that's the best.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree. I'm definitely a hands on learner. I can read everything I want and I'll be like, yeah, I get it. And then you do it and you're like...Yeah. Okay, final question. What is your superpower?

NANCY: Wow. Oh, my God. Did I just, I mean, I just mentioned this word and...okay.

ADRIANA: I know. Like, it's like you're reading my mind.

NANCY: Okay, so, um, so my superpower is that I can do a lot of stuff in one stretch. For example, I can just drive for like 8 hours in a go. And then I can just go to the beach with my friends on like, you know, like just after driving, I can go to the beach with my friends, hang out, and then I can wake up whole night, and then next day also I can do random stuff. So that's, I know, it's like an, it's like exploiting your own body. But then this has like, many a times this has, you know, has been very advantages for me. I mean, like during on calls or maybe, you know, passing my engineering degree. I mean, this superpower has been really, really good for me.

ADRIANA: Yeah. Oh, my God, that's so true. Yeah. Yeah. I keep forgetting like the amount, like on-call aside, you're right that in school wait for long stretches, sometimes pulling all-nighters and...yeah, that's never fun, but that is a good superpower. So basically you have like a seemingly unlimited energy source.

NANCY: Yes. Only for critical things.

ADRIANA: Yeah, fair enough. Fair enough. So when, when it's like super important, you're on.

NANCY: Yeah, definitely.

ADRIANA: That's awesome. I love that. All right, well, you've survived the icebreaker/lightning round questions, so, yeah, I think for audience...so first of all, I'm so excited to have gotten to meet you. And we met at KubeCon in Paris in March, and I was so delighted to realize that you were the one who created the CNCF Women group. Can you talk a little bit more about that?

NANCY: Yeah, definitely. So we started the Women in Cloud Native community one year ago. It has been like one year. And the reason why I started this was because I feel like, like the connection between a lot of women is still, because like, there are so many good women out there in different countries and different regions and they're doing amazing work, yet we do not know about them. Somehow this connection is missing because, like, there is so much noise, I mean, there is like so many people out there, so many things happening, that this is something which I feel like lacks because there was this one conference I was in DevOps Days, and then like two people, two women, they came to me and then they asked me that, hey, I just heard your talk. And I realized, oh, you work in this. We really need help in this stuff. And then they...then I realized at that moment, okay, and I just realized that when I was doing my first job, I never realized while working as a DevOps engineer, that engineer there, that I was the only women on the floor. It's just when I left that company, someone just, you know, texted me a very sweet message that, hey, I really love your energy. You are the only women on the floor. And then that's the moment I realized, oh, okay. I mean, that was a very noticeable thing, and that was a part of it. I survived it, and it was somewhere I feel like, you know, we should be in. Be in more touch with other women in tech space and Cloud Native space so that we can inspire each other. We can get inspired from each other's tech journey.

We can also mentor each other in different respects. So that was the main reason of starting the community. And I guess, like, through that community, it was helpful for me as well. I got to know so many women in the community. I got to know about so many things. I remember, like, even the CNCF ambassador program itself, I was unaware of it. And I guess Carol, she. So Carol, she is there. She is also one of the CNFC Ambassadors, and she, you know, put a lot of messages around the release team, around the CNC Ambassador things, and in the Discord channel, which we formed for Women in Cloud Native community. And that's how I also got to know about, okay, there's a release team which exists, and then I quickly applied for it, and a lot of people applied for it, and then I got to know, okay, CNCF Ambassador, I had no clue that what exactly this program is. And that's how I got to know about it. And then there were so many things. I mean, we did a lot of coffee chats with different women, and we had a lot of workshops, and then we started doing a lot of podcast. And that was so helpful, I mean, for other women as well, because, I mean, like, they got to know that, okay, this person exists at the leadership role, and then, you know, they can just go through their journey, and if they're stuck, they can just see their journey. So this whole thing was the idea of creating the Women in Cloud Native Community and, yeah, yeah, that's how it is happening. And there are so many community builders now. I mean, Bhavani Sankita Amoga. I mean, there are so many people who are supporting this community now.

ADRIANA: Yeah, that's so exciting. And I love that you thought of connecting women together because it's, I mean, it seems so obvious when you do it. That's how you know it's a good idea. It's like, oh, yeah, of course. And I...it's been great because I think, like, one of the challenges we still have in our industry is seeing more people who look like us. And, you know, like, I was thinking back even to, like, my own career. Like, I was for the longest time, always prided myself as, like, being one of the few girls in the room, like, ha ha ha with the boys.

And...and then, like, I hit a point in my career. It was when, when I started taking on one of, like, my first leadership roles that I was made painfully aware of the fact that I was a woman. Not...and it was for a negative thing. It was because, like, I had some, like, male colleague who I was, like, I was supervising him, he was undermining me and, and then, and then, like, my manager supported him and not me. And then I'm like, oh, I'm a woman. And it was not a good thing at that point. And it was such a disappointment, disappointing moment in my life. To realize that, like, you know, I'm a woman means I'm different and not like, I'm just like, up until that point in my career, I just thought, like, I'm being treated as an equal and it was never that. I was just made painfully aware at that point. And it was very sad.

NANCY: Yeah. And there are so many things, I mean, which happens, like when I used to go to office, I mean, because you mentioned, and this just reminded me of the similar incident. I mean, there are so many group discussions which eventually naturally happens that women get to left out and there's eventually, you know, the team bonding get...yeah, it's not, I mean, it just affect the team bonding as well. I mean, if, you know, you're not included, if you're not inclusive in the conversations, even in the discussions or maybe over the coffee chats. Coffee which, you know, do during the office things. So I feel like these are very small things, but these become eventually big. I mean, we, it's like who say, I mean, no one notices it and people just don't notice it, but this eventually becomes big and it affects the overall culture of the workplace.

So I guess, like, it's the responsibility of the workplace as well to foster the inclusivity in, I mean, even in their core values since the beginning. So that's how, I mean, that's the only way this can really be not an issue. I mean, we don't have to, you know, think about, like, something like, women or men. I mean, it should be just...

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. It should be completely seamless. This actually reminds me of a really. It's kind of a funny/sad story that I heard this woman exec tell at one of my jobs. Like, this was several years ago. She was...she was working at whatever company, and...and they were having this big meeting, and it was, like, her and a bunch of dudes, and they took a break. And so during the break, the guys in the meeting decided to continue the conversation in the washroom, and she's like...

NANCY: Exactly.

ADRIANA: And because, like, they went into the washroom to continue the conversation, and she was a woman. She couldn't partake. Well, you know what she did? She walked into the washroom after them.

NANCY: That's ok. That's savage.

ADRIANA: That was, like, the greatest story. She's like, if you're having this conversation, I'm following you right into here. Okay, so.

NANCY: That's so savage.

ADRIANA: I know, right?

NANCY: Yeah. But, yeah.

ADRIANA: ...get her for doing that. Sorry.

NANCY: Yeah. I mean, yeah, yeah, you definitely get my point. And, yeah, I mean, it's good that we are talking about this, because I know, like, so many people just don't know about it. And, like, the savage thing, which you mentioned right now, it's. It's cool. I mean. Yeah, it's definitely cool. Yeah.

ADRIANA: Yeah. But I hope we don't have to keep doing stuff like that. You know? It's like, it was awesome. But also, like, oh, my God, she had to do that. And it was lucky that she, you know, she had the guts to go in, because it's not just anyone who's gonna be like, barge into the men's washroom. So, yeah, yeah. Honestly, like, one of the things that I love about doing my podcast is, like, I want to expose as many ladies in tech to my audience as possible because there's, like, far too many tech podcasts out there that, you know, highlight men. That's nice. There's, like, cool accomplishments, but, like, we ladies, we do some cool stuff. And so I'm...I really like, for me, it's so important to elevate the voices of, like, seriously badass women in tech.

NANCY: That's really great. I mean, that's a really cool thing, Adriana, and I really love that about your podcast.

ADRIANA: Oh, thank you. Yeah, I did, like, a little count the other day, and I think about half my guests so far have been women. Slightly more. Slightly more women. So I'm like, I'm super stoked about that.

NANCY: Yeah. And I did notice that, and that's really cool. I mean, because as you mentioned, like, there are so many podcasts and we just have...I mean, that was also one of the reason that, like, I wanted to have this podcast thing in Women in Cloud Native community as well, because I wanted to mention all those women who are leading open source initiatives in the Cloud Native and in every area. I mean, like, whether it's like, the product management, whether it's, like, community or it's like, tech, or it's like, leading any, any tag and etcetera. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

ADRIANA: Cool. Now, from, since starting Women in Cloud Native, what was the most kind of pleasant surprise that you've had from, from this whole experience so far?

NANCY: I mean...pleasant surprise?

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah. Thing that you didn't expect that you're like, oh, my God, this is amazing.

NANCY: Uh huh, uh huh. Okay, okay. Yeah. I think, like, one of the most amazing thing was, like, I never expected that this is going to be a place where even I got to, I get to know about opportunities and other people as well, because, like, other women did get to know about opportunities, whether it's about the conferences, whether it's about, like, attending those conferences, or whether it's about participating in different TAGs. I mean, that was really surprising to me because I felt like this information is spread out all over the social media and Internet still. It was surprising for me that somehow it was all over there, but somehow it just was in that discord group or slack group, and people got to know different things. That was really, I was really happy with that. That. Okay. It's being helpful for a lot of people. Yeah. And also, like, the surprising part. Yeah. With this, I also remember the coffee chats. I mean, those coffee chats had been very pretty helpful. I mean, a safe space where people discussed about negotiations.

I mean, like, how can they negotiate better in their companies or maybe moving to the next job role. I mean, things like that, those discussions which are generally, I mean, not being people are like, people prefer to do it in safe place sometimes. So even creating that safe space. So that was something like a pleasant surprise which happened, which I've observed. Yeah.

ADRIANA: Well, that's so cool. Yeah. And, you know, like, speaking of negotiations, that is, I think one of the hardest things for women to do, like, because, you know, like, you hear all these stories of, like, men getting, like, all these, like, extra perks when they, when they sign on for a new job, and women are like, okay. Yay. I love the salary you're giving me. And so to have a place where, like, you can talk to other women about how they accomplished, like, so that they got exactly what they got and to prove to other women that, yes, it's possible to negotiate and get your way.

NANCY: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Imposter syndrome. I think a lot of women have imposter syndrome. Even I fight that a lot of times. I mean, a lot of people in general have imposter syndrome, but I've seen that more because we don't have many examples, I think. So we really don't know what's happening. But I guess, like, we, if we talk to more women about their experience, we will definitely get to know that. How is it happening? But, yeah, like I did, the best thing would be that we never require this. I mean, the culture and the place is indifferent to everyone. Like, it's, it's just inclusive and. Yeah, that would be great.

ADRIANA: I totally agree. Yeah, I'm sorry, go ahead.

NANCY: No, I mean, I was just asking you that. Do you have example of, does this remind you of any example where you felt the most inclusive? And it could be anything. I mean, where you feel that environment was very inclusive.

ADRIANA: You know, my current team, I feel, is pretty inclusive. And it's because, like, we're a small team now where there's only three of us developer advocates at my company, and two of us are girls. And honestly, like, this is the highest ratio of, like, girls to guys on a team I've ever worked on before. And for me, that has made such a huge difference. Like, because I feel, I don't know, like, you know, you met Anna, my, she's my...my coworker/work wife. And, yeah, it's just, like, super nice to have, like, a fellow lady in tech who, you know, has...has gone through stuff, has been in the industry for a while, and we can...we can relate because I've also had, like, such very negative experiences with women before. Like, I have to admit that most of my women bosses have been terrible. My current boss is a woman and I love her. And I'm like, oh, my God, thank God I have a good woman boss because I, in the past, like, all of my women bosses have been awful and so disappointing and, like, just didn't end up supporting me. And I think that was even more disappointing than having a man boss not support me.

NANCY: Yeah, yeah, I know. I mean, this reminds me of one of my job, which I would not like to present, but, yeah, I mean, I had a similar incident, and I was like, I was shocked. I mean, I was, because I, like, this was like, the HR who did that to me and I was. There was this incident and I expected that I would get a fair support, but instead they prefer to support a lead because he was, like, critical asset at that moment. And I was a junior engineer and I felt awkward, awful, and I never expected that this could happen, but, yeah.

ADRIANA: But, yeah, yeah, I've had similar experiences. I complained to HR about some shady shit with the manager once, and they were extremely dismissive. And I left the call in tears thinking that I had done something wrong. How? How? Like, I did not feel supported at all. I ended up leaving the company because I'm like, I can't be in a place where I feel like this.

NANCY: Yeah, yeah, I did the same. And that's very sad. I hope this changes. I mean, it's, it's too sad.

ADRIANA: Yeah, I completely agree. But it, you know, like, the fact that, you know, like, you're Women in Cloud Native group, you have a safe space for people to, to talk about these things so important so that you can, I don't know, it gives you, like, a little boost of confidence, right? Whenever you're feeling down, you can, like, go and, like, share your story and, like, it's okay. Like, you know, it's not going to make the problem go away, but you can at least feel better and work towards, like, improving the situation by having these discussions.

NANCY: Yeah. I mean, even now, talking about this similar incident which we both had, I mean, I just, because, like, throughout these years, like, for two, three years, I felt that, okay, this is one off incident and I was living in that space, but then now I feel sad and I don't know, I just have this mixed feelings about this, that this is happening at so many places and it's kind of sad, but, yeah, it's good that we brought this up. And I guess, like, a lot of people will be hearing this and they know that this exists, so. Yeah, that's a good thing.

ADRIANA: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. We need to elevate these discussions and, you know, also as far as elevating, like, you know, diversity issues, I've got, I think by the time this airs, it will have already passed. But in next week, I'm going to be in this conference in Toronto called KubeHuddle, and we're doing a DEI panel where we get to share, like, you know, stories from, from the trenches, from a panel of ladies. And I think the thing that makes me super excited is that the conference organizer Marino, he put our panel as the keynote for the conference, which, like, it just, like, it warms my heart, because we have to bring attention to these matters because, you know, DEI has kind of become an afterthought in many organizations because. Oh, well, it's whatever. It's not important. Oh, these, like, complaining women, like: equality, equality, and it's like...no, because, like, it's still a thing. Because women aren't being treated fairly. They're getting undermined by whatever. I mean, I still get mansplained.

NANCY: Yeah, yeah, I agree. And I'm pretty sure that nobody knows about these things. I mean, it's not even out there.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah. It's, like, fallen out of fashion to talk about it.

NANCY: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, people. People must be unaware of it. Okay. These things even happen, I mean, because no one is talking about it. So it's really great. And I'm super excited for this panel. I hope to get. Get to see this on YouTube.

ADRIANA: Yeah, I think they're recording the sessions, the main sessions for KubeHuddle. So I think it will show up on YouTube, so...yeah. Yeah.

NANCY: Cool.

ADRIANA: Cool. And then final question before we. We shift gears, because correct me if I'm wrong, but when you started the Women in Cloud Native group, that was not officially, like, a CNCF group, and now, and I guess, as of, like, last year, was. Is that correct?

NANCY: Yeah, yeah, that's true. That's true. Yeah. I'm sorry, what was the question?

ADRIANA: How did that come about?

NANCY: Yeah, yeah, that's a...I mean, that's a very good question. I mean, I guess, like, we just started. I mean, we had no intention. I mean, I just wanted to start this Discord group where a lot of women can connect with each other. That's all. I mean, where we can discuss about different topics. It could be debugging, on-calls or maybe negotiations or anything like that. And we started this Discord group, but then I realized. I mean, we realized, and with the support of Katie, who is leading the Ambassador program, I mean, we realized that it would be really nice if we can be integrated with Cloud Native so that we can reach out to more women, because it's, like, one of the most active, Slack group. And I guess we got to reach, uh, to...because, like, I tried...we tried that it can happen through social media, but still, I feel like it was not reaching out, uh, to more women in different regions somehow. I mean, I cannot trust the algorithms when, uh, especially when Elon Musk has taken over Twitter.

I can just cannot. I just can't trust the algorithms that it's going to reach to people. But, yeah, I mean, being a part of, I mean, CNCF officially, I mean, over the community page, it really helped to reach out to a lot of people. So that was really helpful. And I also wanted to do this. I mean, I also wanted to pitch this that we have mentorship and mentee. Mentor and mentee program sort of thing, but I guess we already have a lot of LFX. Mentee mentor mentee program. I still need to discuss this, but, yeah, this is something which I feel we should have, and it could be really helpful. Yeah, but let's.

ADRIANA: Yeah, I love that so much because I have found in my life, like, I have not had too many women mentors in my life, and I think it would be so nice to have a place where that's easily accessible because I think also for mentorship programs, like, a lot of us tend to be really shy about asking somebody to be a mentor. And I know, like, it's just, you know, like, sometimes it's someone you look up to and you're like, oh, I'm so scared of, like, talking to them. And even though it's like, yeah, they're just...they're a human just like you and me. But it's still, like, overwhelming and scary and having a safe space again, where, like, these kinds of requests or these...these, like, bringing...bringing these people together, mentor and mentee becomes, like, less of a chore I think is so valuable to the community.

NANCY: I totally agree with what you mentioned. Sometimes you're like, you have this imposter syndrome, and you don't reach out to that people. I mean, that happened with me as well. It was. I was lucky that. That people. That person reached out to me instead. Oh, my God. Like, I was like, what? And I was...I never expected. I was having all these. I was like, I'm, in general overthinker. So...yeah, so I overthink a lot, and I was overthinking a lot, and then that person reached out to me and I was shook. I was shocked. I mean, okay, this is something which I wanted, and, okay, it finally happened, and that actually opened a lot of doors to opportunity. I mean, so I totally agree with you.

I mean, this sort of program can really help. I mean, because sometimes people are afraid to reach out and then they just don't know what they're missing. Like, the full room of opportunities or discussions or. Yeah, yeah, definitely in...in that. Maybe I'll work on this. Adriana, we can...I will also get in touch with you to maybe get it reviewed or maybe become a mentor. That would be so...

ADRIANA: I would love that.

NANCY: Yeah. Awesome.

ADRIANA: Yeah, definitely. Count me in. I would love to participate in that. Even if it doesn't become like a formalized program. We can make an informal thing, whatever we can do to help elevate the community. That's so great. That's so great. Now switching gears a bit, because there's the other thing that I wanted to discuss with you, which is so cool that you're doing. You are working in sustainability in tech, so why don't you talk a little bit about that?

NANCY: Yeah, so that's. This thing is related to, I mean, like when I. So basically when I studied, I mean, my bachelor's, I always wanted to do environmental engineering. And for some reason I didn't end up taking it because maybe I, maybe the courses or the universities were not that much accessible to me at that point. I mean, back then, and I didn't end up taking it, but then somewhere I always wanted to contribute in this. And then I came across TAG Environment Sustainability in Cloud Native. That pretty much aligns with whatever I'm doing and if I can make an impact there, that's really good. So we have this TAG Environment Sustainability in CNCF, which basically focuses on sustainability and tech.

This is something which started, I guess, like one year ago, I mean, like more than one year ago, but it's pretty new. And there are so many people out there who are doing great work. I mean, there are so many open source projects like Kepler and many more which are there to bring sustainability in tech. So, yeah, so this group, this initiative, this TAG has a lot of parts to it. I mean, there is, there is the green reviews. Comms is mostly related to the communication and advocating because obviously that's also important if we advocate about it and reaches out to people that something like this exists. I mean, we should be concerned about sustainability in tech. And then we have green reviews, which is being led by Nikki.

And this is more about, I mean, all the release cycles. Like whenever the project is going through the release cycles, the green reviews is responsible for reviewing the carbon footprint using various tools and just suggesting them, you know, suggestions, giving them suggestions that how can we reduce these carbon footprints? So that is something very cool. I still have to explore that area more in depth, but I want to talk about Cloud Native Sustainability Week, which happened for the first time last year in October. And a lot of countries participated in that. Like in the second week of October, there were like so many countries which participated in it, so many organizers who hosted the meetup around sustainability topic, and there were so many discussions around this topic. So that was a great initiative to have that all together. I mean, I led the India Chap...India thing. I mean, where we had in Bangalore mini conference sort of thing.

We had amazing topics by Red Hat and different people who have, I mean, who have their own startups in this area who are measuring all the sustainability footprints and suggesting different companies how to improve it. So, I mean, that was a good, good point, good start to basically get to know about the tech and get to know about things, how to basically convince your team to adopt it. So it was a great first start. And this year I'm going to, I'm leading this initiative for this year, the TAG Environment Sustainability, in which, like, again, I mean, different countries can come together, host the meetups and have different discussions around this topic. Yeah.

ADRIANA: That's so cool.

NANCY: Yeah.

ADRIANA: Wow. And so what do you think has been the most eye-opening thing about, you know, since you started working with this group?

NANCY: Yeah, so that's a very good question. I mean, I think, like, when I've started working on this, I just realized that, I mean, this is, on my personal level observation, not the TAG Environment Sustainability, but because I got involved into this. So once you get involved into some tech or something, you just keep thinking about it, right? It's like, and then I just observed in a lot of meetups and a lot of things. I just feel that so, I mean, many people care so less about this topic. I mean, this is very alarming because this is very sad because so many things are already happening. I mean, as we discussed initially, I mean, the weather changes, that's so evident. And even one state, I mean, Jakarta, I guess, like they are shifting their whole state to another place because it's going to submerge in ocean in few years.

So they're shifting their whole capital. I mean, it just feels sad that so many things are already happening. People are experiencing it. I mean, as you mentioned about Canada and I mentioned about Bangalore, I mean, this is sad that people are not taking this into account. And when I started discussing this with a lot of people who actually care about it, then I got to know that, I mean, if I still need to read a lot, and there is so much to read about it. I mean, all those, the tech which we do and the data centers and they are creating, I mean, they are emitting a lot of carbon footprints, which is a huge number. And it is, it will increase over the years. I mean, for sure.

I mean, there was this number, I'm forgetting the number, but I guess it is around 12%. Maybe I can, you know, give you the blog reference which you can paste because I don't want to split out some, you know, spit out random numbers, but it's a significant number which is going to increase. And we are responsible for that significant number as software developers because we are related to data centers, we are related to writing the code and using all the cloud, deploying our code to the cloud. So we are somehow responsible for this. I mean, we are a part of it, but no one is taking this into account. This pretty much sounds to me like security, to be honest. I mean, there was this one point when people didn't care about security, and then it started hitting their business and people's privacy, and now people are super, you know, caring about it. I'm just wondering when people are going to take this into account because this is also super critical.

ADRIANA: So. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's a really good point. And, you know, you hit it spot on when, you know, like, we work in an industry that by definition is not exactly environmentally friendly just for...because of the nature of what we do. And, like, it makes me feel incredibly guilty because, like, since I was a kid, I was, like, worried about the environment. You know, like, I, I had, like, environment clubs in my high school and stuff. Like, and, and yet I'm in an, in an industry that, you know, like, the sheer fact that we've got these servers that we're running or even if, like, you know, work working on my laptop plugged into the wall, I'm consuming energy, that sort of thing is, is contributing to, you know, to, like, it has an environmental impact. And so I think having, having a group like this to raise people's awareness so that it's, you know, people don't treat it as, like this stuff's gonna last forever. What I do now doesn't matter. It does matter. I mean, even, even on the last, you know, I think 15 years or so, I've seen just the climate has changed right before our eyes. And it's, it's like super, super freaky, you know, and it starts out as a subtle change at first, and then, and then you see, like, these sort of extreme other things and you're like, oh, my God, how did we let it get to this?

NANCY: Right, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, like, that's, that's something concerning. And that is the reason that I've started reading a lot of things around this. I mean, you know, how can we stop this? And basically, I mean, there are so many white papers out there. I mean, even on the TAG Environment Sustainability website, which maybe I can give you the link later. White papers, which, I mean, a lot of people are working on it.

I mean, in the TAG Environment itself, the white papers and the research papers. So I guess, I mean, at least the starting point could be that maybe we read about these facts and they figure out that how can we make a difference? And also there was this one very good point which was raised in one of the TAG meetings that which I really want that we do this year, that, I mean, one is like knowledge that this is happening. But the second part is how do you convince yourself team or how do you convince your management to follow this? Because this is not something, I mean, this is not something directly affecting their business. I mean, just like I mentioned about security when it started affecting the business and people's privacy, then people started caring about it. So, so basically, how do you convince your management about this topic? That's also crucial.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I completely agree. Now I wanted to just go back to one thing that you had mentioned earlier, which you had mentioned the Kepler project. Are you able to just provide a little bit more info on that?

NANCY: Yeah, so, okay, let me just see. I mean, so basically we have this Kepler project which is, I think which is also a part of Green Software Foundation. So this is something which basically provide insights to your Kubernetes cluster. I mean the carbon footprints of your Kubernetes cluster. So this is something which we can integrate and it's open source. This is something which we can integrate into our projects to have a look. So this is something around the Kepler project which is there. And we have like more projects around this which we can adopt in our pipeline or maybe for awareness we can at least attend the green review meetings. Or maybe we can just go through the website itself to get to know what all exist in this space. Yeah.

ADRIANA: Cool, cool. And you mentioned green review meetings. What exactly is a green review meeting?

NANCY: Yeah, so green reviews meeting. I mean, so in this, like, there are different release cycles in the CNCF project ecosystem itself. And we basically do the reviews, I mean, they do the reviews of how much carbon footprints they are producing and then you provide the suggestions that how can you basically decrease that. So this is, I think the whole, this is the whole aim of that green review meetings and yeah, I guess like these are kind of very useful because you get to know that what's happening and how can you mitigate it? Yeah, so. And also, like, if you want to...

ADRIANA: Oh, sorry, go ahead.

NANCY: I think there's an Internet lag.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

NANCY: I just wanted to mention that if you want to be a part of this meeting, I mean, we can. I mean, we can go to the website and we can just have this. I mean, it has the whole schedule, the calendar, links and whole schedule, and then we can just hop into that and listen to what's happening. Yeah.

ADRIANA: That's so awesome. And I was going to ask, so are green review meetings done for each one of the CNCF projects, then?

NANCY: That is something...to be honest, I'm not sure because I'm not deep. Like, I'm not much involved in the green review meeting as of now. This is something which I'm unaware of. But, yeah, I think I'll have to dig more into this. But, yeah, we can definitely ask this in the Slack group for sure.

ADRIANA: Cool. That's awesome. That's awesome. I love the idea of having these green review meetings and baking them into basically your SDLC, right? In much the same way that you said, like, security was an afterthought until it became a real problem. And now it's definitely more prevalent in the SDLC. Maybe not necessarily where it ought to be, but it's definitely, like, part of the conversation. And so having green review meetings puts, like, environmental concerns into the conversation so that. So that organizations can be more mindful than of like, their environmental impact, which is very. Yeah, that's awesome. Cool. Well, we are coming up on time, but before we wrap up, I was wondering if you have any, like, parting words or words of wisdom or hot takes for our audience.

NANCY: Yeah, so I think. I really love the podcast. So thank you so much, Adriana. I mean, for this podcast. Yeah, I think, like, there is one thing which I wanted to mention, like, through your podcast, I mean, because I'm leading this initiative for sustainability week. I mean, if you. I mean, to be honest, even I'm learning out the things, but my intention is to at least know about these issues and trying to figure out that, how to fix it. So even if you have the similar intention, maybe just feel free to host the meetup in your region and let us know. There is this open issue on GitHub, which maybe I can give you the link and you can paste. So, yeah, if you are interested to participate or maybe host the meetup. That would be really awesome. Yeah, that would be super awesome. So we are still yet to define the exact dates and month, but probably it's going to happen around October. So yeah, if you have interest. So please feel free to comment on the issue, which I will give.

ADRIANA: Yeah, awesome. Yeah. So we'll include that as part of the show notes. And the CNCF Slack group is called TAG...?

NANCY: Yeah, TAG Environment Sustainability.

ADRIANA: Yeah, TAG Environment Sustainability.

NANCY: Right.

ADRIANA: Yeah. And the women's group is called CNCF Women.

NANCY: Yes. Yes. Yeah, I'm going to present the link as well for that. I mean, we have this whole YouTube channels and also for the women, I mean, Women in Cloud Native. I mean, if you're interested to, I mean, I'm going to put out the form, Google form. And if you're interested to come to the podcast, share your journey, or maybe share, or maybe conduct a workshop around any technical topic you wish to do that you can let us know. So I'll share the Google form as well. Yeah.

ADRIANA: Amazing. This is so great. Well, thank you Nancy, so much for geeking out with me today. Y'all don't forget to subscribe and be sure to check out the show notes for additional resources and to connect with us and our guests on social media. Until next time...

NANCY: Peace out and geek out.

ADRIANA: Geeking Out is hosted and produced by me, Adriana Villela. I also compose and perform the theme music on my trusty clarinet. Geeking Out is also produced by my daughter, Hannah Maxwell, who incidentally, designed all of the cool graphics. Be sure to follow us on all the socials by going to bento.me/geekingout.

About our guest:

Marylia is a Toronto-based Senior Staff Software Engineer at Grafana Labs, working with Open Telemetry. Before that, Marylia was a Engineer Manager and Developer at Cockroach Labs, working on Cluster Observability and a full-stack developer at IBM, working on internal Observability tools for DB2 products.

Find our guest on:

• LinkedIn
• Marylia's blog

Find us on:

• All of our social channels are on bento.me/geekingout
• All of Adriana's social channels are on bento.me/adrianamvillela

Show notes:

• Marylia on On-Call Me Maybe
• #otel-semconv-db-client-stability channel on CNCF Slack
• OpenTelemetry Community Membership
• Special Interest Group (SIG)
• #otel-js channel on CNCF Slack
• #otel-sig-end-user channel on CNCF Slack
• OpenTelemetry Operator

Additional notes:

• Join CNCF Slack
• Learn about the different ways you can contribute to OpenTelemetry here.

Transcript:

ADRIANA: Hey y'all, welcome to Geeking Out. The podcast about all geeky aspects of software delivery, DevOps, Observability, reliability, and everything in between. I'm your host Adriana Villela, coming to you from Toronto, Canada. And geeking out with me today is Marylia Gutierrez of Grafana. Welcome, Marylia. And where are you calling from today?

MARYLIA: I'm also from Toronto.

ADRIANA: Yay, Toronto! Super excited! I always get so excited when there are other Canadians, other Torontonians, and we've got the bonus because you're also Brazilians.

MARYLIA: In Toronto, yeah.

ADRIANA: That's right, Brazilians in Toronto. Okay, so before we get started with the meaty bits, we are going to start with the lightning round questions. Are you ready?

MARYLIA: I'm ready.

ADRIANA: Okay, first question. Are you a lefty or a righty?

MARYLIA: Righty.

ADRIANA: Do you prefer iPhone or Android?

MARYLIA: Android all the way.

ADRIANA: Do you prefer Mac, Linux, or windows?

MARYLIA: Probably Mac is what I've been using for several years for development. It would be hard to move away from it.

ADRIANA: Yeah, fair enough. What is your favorite programming language?

MARYLIA: So I'm kind of in splits between...I really like JavaScript. I think I work a lot with this, but after working with Go I also really enjoy it. So it's good that I also like being like full stack. So everything backend I try to focus on Go, anything front end I use JavaScript, so it's a little split there.

ADRIANA: That's awesome. Best of both worlds. Okay, next question. Do you prefer Dev or Ops?

MARYLIA: Dev. Yeah.

ADRIANA: Right, cool. JSON or YAML?

MARYLIA: I think let's say JSON, just because I actually never work as much with YAML, so I, it's just not so common on my case. So it's the most familiar. Pretty much, yeah, yeah.

ADRIANA: And I guess because you, you also work with a lot of like JavaScript.

MARYLIA: Exactly, yeah, it's pretty much JSON, JSON, JSON. So.

ADRIANA: Okay, next question. Do you prefer spaces or tabs?

MARYLIA: Spaces. And you have like the tabs that actually convert to spaces kind of thing. So you don't...

ADRIANA: Yeah, I'm the same way. I'm the same way. Okay, two more questions. Do you prefer to consume content through video or text?

MARYLIA: Text, yes. Otherwise I get too distracted and, or I have to change the speed sometimes to go faster. Like where is that thing that I just wanted to remind myself there is no like way to just search on the video.

ADRIANA: I actually like, I caught myself last week listening to a podcast and I think I had to rewind it like five times because my mind started wandering while I was listening to it. And yeah, I agree. I wish there was like a search functionality in videos or podcasts or conversations in general where like, you know. I'll like, having...be having a conversation with someone, I'll zone out. I'm like, oh, shit, where's the rewind button?

MARYLIA: Or like, I talk with this, with that person. Who was the person? Or like, when do I talk about it? Come on after the brain.

ADRIANA: Yeah, I know, that drives me crazy. Okay, final question. What is your superpower?

MARYLIA: So I think for this one, gonna stick with context switching just because, oh, again, there's like backend and front end switching or just day to day tasks. I have to do this and I have to go to a meeting and then I can easily switch back and forth between things and pick up whatever is next.

ADRIANA: That is a good superpower. I definitely agree.

MARYLIA: That's like the time that I was like a manager previously I had like, sometimes the meeting would end early. I have a couple of minutes to the next one. I would like go in and program a little, do some coding and come back in just like those five minutes. So there's always something.

ADRIANA: That's awesome. That's awesome. Yeah, I remember when I was a manager as well, like trying to, when I was doing some tech stuff on, on the side, I'm like, do I have time between, between meetings or like, please let people be late so I can like tinker on this a little bit more. Awesome. All right, you survived the lightning round questions. So I want to point out to our, to our audience that Marylia has actually...I have interviewed Marylia previously before on On-Call Me Maybe, and so I invited her to come on Geeking Out because it's always a treat chatting with Marylia. And last time, like when you were On-Call Me Maybe, we talked about how you were a manager at your previous job, but you still made it a point of staying technical. And so...which is...it's funny because the kind of management techie...management/IC switch has come up as a theme many times throughout this particular podcast.

So it's always interesting to see where people are at, where people land with their careers. And you just switched jobs, I guess relatively recently, right, where you were primarily in management, still staying technical, but now you're like, I guess fully IC?

MARYLIA: I see. So, yeah, the previous job was pretty much doing like the main position was a manager, but I was still doing a lot of development, still being like one of the top contributors, but now I move completely IC role, so. And I also have like small teams so we can divide things between us. So, yeah, completely IC now.

ADRIANA: That's awesome. And, and tell folks where, where you're working now.

MARYLIA: Working on Grafana. Focus on OpenTelemetry.

ADRIANA: Yay. Yeah, and that's, that was another reason why I wanted to have you on is because you are focusing on OpenTelemetry. And I believe and when you were at your previous job, you were managing an Observability team, right?

MARYLIA: So, yeah, so yeah, on the previous job I was working for Cockroach Labs and I was responsible for the Observability of the cluster. So already on this row of Observability and deciding what it was best for the user, like what information would be helpful for them to debug anything and also just know the current state of their databases, everything that they were running from, queries and things like that. So I really enjoy working on the Observability world. So definitely when made the switch, I wanted to continue on this Observability, and now I can focus. Now it's just pretty much on OpenTelemetry. So it can be, it's not just for databases now, for everything.

ADRIANA: So I guess you went from being like an end user of Observability to now like actually being a contributor in OpenTelemetry, which is awesome.

MARYLIA: Yeah, yeah. And it's good because I also have like the experience of, because I interacted a lot with what user would we're looking for and things like that. It's also helpful. For example, I, I'm joining the SIG for semantic conventions for databases now. We can actually give the opinion of like, oh, this type of information was always helpful. These were things that people were always asking and things like that. So whenever we made like a convention, I can give like the point of view of also what people were looking for.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, that's so great. And one thing that I want to ask you with regards to, like, you know, becoming a contributor in OpenTelemetry, like, how was that for you? How was your experience? I guess first part of my question is, had you ever contributed in open source before? Like in an open source community, like OpenTelemetry before?

MARYLIA: Yeah. So, well, CockroachDB is open source, so everything that we do there can, people can contribute. But it was hard for people to interact with the area that my team was on because it was not something so easy for people like to jump in and do stuff, especially because some of the testing stuff were things that it was easy for internal people to test, not as much the community. So even though it was in the open, was not as much of interaction at that point. So that was a first interact...having the group. And I have people from Lightstep, I have people from Dynatrace, Honeycomb. So I, that is, that was definitely a switch there that I've been really enjoying it.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

MARYLIA: Receptive because they want to improve the community and things like that, so it has been really great.

ADRIANA: That's awesome. And it's so nice to hear, like, you've had such a positive experience because I always tell people, like, whenever, you know, I'm trying to convince people to contribute to OpenTelemetry, I'm like, everyone's really nice. No one's going to bite your head off. Because it's scary, right? Making that first pull request, you're like, should I?

MARYLIA: Yeah. So I think it's also like, for example, different. If it is someone that never contributed, never done something is going to be a lot more scary. Like your first PR, your first interaction, and then, like, joining a meeting and like, oh, should I give my opinion? Of course, is always going to be scary.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

MARYLIA: But for me, because I had the experience of all the things that I was doing, was already in the open. So you have, like, when you create things, try always to be clear. Put a lot of description, like, on your PRs or like testing. And when you talking with somebody, what if you have a question, give the context and then ask the question. So, for example, I joined it...my first, like SIG, I asked a couple of questions, was kind of like, okay, my second one, I was making some comments on one of the plugins for Postgres, and I end up, they even asked me to be the code owner for that package. So on my second meeting, I became the code owner of something. So, but of course, it's not going to be the same for everybody because it's not like two weeks, you're going to be a code owner.

Actually, I was working for the past three years in databases, and that gave me the context to like, oh, we can make this thing better or change this or that, so it's gonna be different for each one. And then I would then they have, one of them actually offered to sponsor me to become a member, so I became a member, and then it's just on track for all the other things wherever they come.

ADRIANA: That's so cool. That's so cool. And, you know, one of the things that I so appreciate about, about this community is like, everybody actually makes a really concerted effort to make it vendor neutral. We're all like frenemies, competitors, but it's like, you don't even notice it. I never think about the fact that when I'm interacting with people in OTel, we're competitors.

MARYLIA: Yeah, it's very funny because internally sometimes you think about, oh, we have to do this. Wait, are the others doing this? Like, oh my God, no, I have to like, get this customer because that is the goal, right? Getting the customer as a company, you need to have revenue. But then I am...those videos...they're like, oh, we are doing this. I'm like, okay, cool, we can do this then. And it's so fun, like, to have these other points of views and things like that.

ADRIANA: Yeah, I totally agree. I totally agree. So was your first SIG that you joined, that was the, was it the semantic convention?

MARYLIA: No, it was the SDK Node. So my team is focused on SDKs, and we kind of like divide a little the languages between team, but we also switch a little just because I recently joined it. So now I'm focused on the node JS SDK with time. Probably gonna touch on all the others as well. So that is the one that I've been more actively joining. So that is the one that I became co-owner of the Postgres plugin inside the SDK.

ADRIANA: Oh, nice. That's awesome. So what are...for folks who might not be in the know on, like, what's kind of the day in the life, like working on the SDK, on the Node SDK, what does that mean?

MARYLIA: Yeah, so for example, I think one advantage that I have on my team is that the other members are working on, for example, the Java and .NET, and those are really stable SDKs. So I know the things that already exist there that are working. And then a lot of things are still experimental on the Node one. So we need to...or they just don't exist at all. So one kind of first step is to make alignment so I can create things like for example, we wanted to have information about the host ID and service instance ID, so we can use this even on Grafana dashboards. And then we were checking, and then each language were doing slightly different, or some of them were actually missing some cases. So my first thing was actually making sure that the host ID was always getting collected and then the server's instance ID was not being generated unless you force it. So again, I created like the default to have like a random ID.

So it stays like right now to make it consistent between then. The other thing that I'm working on right now is, for example, there are a lot of metrics we have, for example, semantic convention for the Java metrics. But that is the only language that has semantic convention. There is not for the others, but there are things that are very helpful specific for Node between, like, oh, just memory usage or like, specific like for the Node garbage collector, things like that. But there is nothing currently collecting any of those things. So that's why I'm working on, for example, working on creating like, the semantic conventions. Then if people agree, like, okay, these are the good ones that we should be collecting, then I can go back to the SDK and actually put up the PRs to make those things. And actually, just the other day, somebody opened, when starting collecting some of those metrics that you were missing, I was like, okay, cool.

So I can kind of like, already work with someone else that is also working on the same thing. And that is why the SIGs are important, because when I start working, I kind of ask like, oh, I'm start working on this. Just, is anyone else working on this? So we don't have any conflicts and they're like, oh, yeah, we have this information displays, but currently no one else is touching this. So I was like, okay, cool. So I'm going to create and share with all of you so you can give me feedback. So I think that is the cool part.

ADRIANA: That's so awesome. That's so awesome. Yeah. I've had some more recent SIG interactions outside of End User SIG are the OTel Operator SIG because I had a talk at KubeCon where we were talking about, like, aspects of the OTel Operator. So I, like, posted a bunch of questions on there. And one of the things that, that I notice as you start digging into things in OTel is like, oh, there's like, things missing, right? So you'll want to...I always see that as a...as an opportunity to, like, improve the docs, improve the README. So I remember like...

MARYLIA: Oh, I keep going on rabbit holes there because, for example, for this one, I was like, I just had to edit, like, the service instance ID. That's it. And my first thing was like, okay, which cloud detector already have this? And then I looked the README. There was no information at all on any of the READMEs about this. I was like, okay, let me first start then adding updating all the READMEs. So I opened like, a bunch of PRs to update all the docs. And then I noticed there was a PR, like, oh, some of those things were like, deprecated, we should update. So I started creating PR to update those things, and now I was like, okay, it's updated. And then I was like, but now we need to touch this other thing that also doesn't have any good example or documentation. Let me create this. So I think, like, on my first week, I open close to like 30 PRs.

ADRIANA: Oh, my God.

MARYLIA: And I was like, yeah. And my goal after I got all of those merges, like, okay, cool, now create the PR that I actually wanted and was like a small one kind of thing. But yeah, every time that I'm trying to use something and I say like, oh, I don't know how to use this, I tried to find out, I was like, oh, that is where the steps that I did. So I go there and update the documentation.

ADRIANA: So, yeah, yeah, it's such a rabbit hole with the documentation also because I think, like, some things live in the READMEs, some live in the OTel docs, and then, so it's like trying to achieve a balance because you don't want to necessarily duplicate information, but you want to make sure that one references the other, which in itself can be...can be complicated. Yeah. In my case, I remember I was asking a question for putting together this talk, and then someone pointed out, oh, yeah, it's not super well-documented. There's a ticket open to update this. And I'm like, it's still fresh in my mind, so I can totally update the README so that it clarifies things.

MARYLIA: Yeah, well, it was funny because I was following two tutorials. One thing that I was trying, but I was following one directly from OTel, and I was trying to put some things on a Grafana dashboard. And so I was following that document as well. But both ways were right ways of doing. But there was two steps that if you did, they would conflict with each other.

ADRIANA: Oh.

MARYLIA: And then I was like, it was not working. Like, why is not working? Then, like, I got some help from somebody from the community. I was like, oh, okay, so those two ways are right, but at some point, you, you need to check if you're doing one of the other was just like some Node options. And I was like, maybe I should put like this as a warning on the topic, like, make sure you don't have this other thing, like, set up. And I was talking with the person. I was like, okay, I'm gonna update them on both. Both Grafana doc and the OTel doc. They're like, wait, how can you update Grafana? I was like, no, no, I work for Grafana, so I can go there and update the website. So it's not something that...But, yeah. Then I was able to put the warning on both.

ADRIANA: That's so great. Yeah. I mean, and that's the thing, like, because especially if you're starting out with something, it's so scary. Like, you know, you're following the instructions. I don't know about you, but I'll be following the instructions on someone's blog post or whatever. I'm like, I must follow this example exactly because I don't want this thing to blow up in my face. And then something blows up in your face. You're like, oh, my God, what's this?

MARYLIA: And then you put, like, part of code of one and then the other and become that Frankenstein, and you're just like, okay, which part of this I actually need? And you start, like, commenting out until, like, it breaks or continue working. Like, okay, okay, this is the thing that I actually need here.

ADRIANA: Yeah, exactly. And then make sure you take good notes. Yeah. Because, like, I often find, like, if I don't touch something for a really long time, I might as well not have written it. You know?

MARYLIA: I have so many notes. I have, like, even for, like, notes about, like, topics. Even, like, if something, like, super basic, I was like, it's super basic for me right now. In a week, I might not think super basic. So I put, like, all the comments that I run for everything.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. Because otherwise, like, future you is gonna be so mad at past yoiu. Yeah. I'm always surprised by how easily I forget things. Like, when I'm doing, I'm like, there's no way I'm gonna forget this. And then a week later, like... So I wanted to ask you as well, you know, what...how has it been? Because, as I mentioned before, you had been managing a team, and then I think just before you, you left Cockroach, you had gone back to, I think, primarily IC. How...how was that...how was that transition for you?

MARYLIA: I think my. I think, on my case is easier because I never stopped programming, so that was still, like, 50% of my time. I'm always developing, so just continue picking up on this. It was easy, I guess. Like, the challenge is more, like, when you change job, like, the things that I need to learn. And so the challenge was more on that side, not the programming itself. And now I think I'm still trying to get used to the amount of meetings I have because it's, like, barely any. So just, like, wait, what do I do now? I should be talking with people. Oh, no, not. And especially because a lot of my team is on Europe, so I. The meetings happen in the morning. So I have like one or two meetings a day in the morning, and then afternoon is completely, like, open.

ADRIANA: So that's so glorious.

MARYLIA: So it's good because one of my teammates, he's in the US and then he actually is my onboarding, like, buddy. So we kind of say, okay, we can schedule in the afternoon because we know that there's not going to be any conflicts with anything. So it's good because pretty much like ten in the morning, I have like the weeklies or like the company meeting, things like that. The SIGs that I joined are noon pretty much. So I have like those ones and then heads down working afternoon.

ADRIANA: That's awesome. I definitely appreciate having like an uninterrupted chunk of time to work. And for me too, like that, I think that was the biggest shock when, when I went from manager to IC, I'm like, I'm free.

MARYLIA: I'm just joking with the, you know, like all those like, or YouTube music or Spotify, like, how many minutes you heard? I was like, oh, it's gonna spike so much. I already see the spike.

ADRIANA: Yeah, absolutely. And how do you find, like, aside from, you know, having a lot of coworkers in Europe, so having to do the morning meetings, how do you generally find, like, having, working with folks in like that big of a time zone difference?

MARYLIA: Yeah, I think it's gonna again, like, depends on the team. So for example, my team is very senior, so that is also like an advantage that people have the experience on, know when to sync up on what teams you need to sync up. So, and even like, for example, we are working on the SDKs, so each one is actually doing for their own parts, so it's not like we would interact. But then when I want to find something like, oh, I found out, like in Java works this way so they can kind of like share. So we know that it's being done the same way everywhere. So we do have like the team channel that we can share this type of thing. And then when we, sometimes we have questions that we think we should discuss with the whole team, then we just keep putting on the agenda and then when the weekly comes, we discuss. But I do have one on ones with the rest of the team as well. Just like check in and stuff like that. So I think, yeah, it has been going really well. But again, the key is communication for everybody that anyone that is listening that doesn't have the experience, just message. People ask away. They might not be able to answer at that time, but when they have the time, they will definitely help you.

ADRIANA: And I think that's such good advice because I think especially for more junior people, they tend to get so scared to ask questions.

MARYLIA: I used to, like, manage a lot of junior people, and some of them would only message me. I was like, you can message the team. So I was always encouraged them when I would see them asking, like, on the, like, team channel and sometimes because the team channel note was private, but sometimes they would ask, like, on the open channels, I was like, oh, I'm so proud. I would be, like, so happy when I was seeing things like that. I was like, and then one time I asked, my manager was like, because I think one of them, they were afraid of, like, oh, I'm just, like, concerned that I'm gonna, like, sound stupid with my questions making things. I was like, how can I convince them that is not stupid? It's just nobody knows a lot of things. You just have to ask to learn. I was like, how can I convince that, like, people can ask questions? He's like, use you as an example.

I was like, wait, what do you mean? And he was like, well, because I just that morning had asked on the engineering channel that was like, the big one, and I was like, I have this problem and I have no idea what it is. Can somebody help me? That was kind of like, my question was at the previous job, like, have no idea what I'm doing kind of thing. So it was pretty much me on the message. And then who, replying me was one of the founders who created the thing, like, six years ago. I was like, oh, yeah. I was like, okay, cool. So you just replied that. See, if me as a manager or like, a senior IC is so open, like, hey, I have no idea. What is this thing? Who knows? We're not expecting anyone even, like, more junior to know those things as well.

ADRIANA: Yeah, exactly. And I think that's such an important thing to, to impart, like, throughout our industry because I think, and I notice especially in, like, large corporations, people are very afraid of asking questions because, you know, you're supposed to give off this impression that, yeah, know what you're doing. And I, you know, it's like, yeah, there, there are so many points in my day where I don't know what I'm doing. I will try to solve things on my own as much as possible because I kind of like that.

MARYLIA: Yeah.

ADRIANA: But, like, I'm stuck...

MARYLIA: It's like a balance. So I would say, for example, if you have, like, a task you read and you first, you have absolutely no idea what the task is talking about the first thing. Ask questions to clarify and like, okay, now at least I understand what they are asking me to do. Now try just for yourself to figure out on your own. So say like if in one, two days you don't make any progress, ask for help. I was like, this is like at least like some thresholds for like to try it out, see if you can learn it. Or at least if you like, completely stuck yourself, like can you give me like some pointer? Because at the same time I wouldn't like with people that I was even managed. And I will not just say the answer, hey, do this thing on the same because otherwise they won't learn. So you kind of like question, what do you think about this thing? What about that thing? Have you tried kind of thing? And you can see like the light come up at some point, like, oh yeah, I think we can do it this way.

So you try to like guide them. But yeah, yeah, but I myself like to try a little. And then when I'm stuck, I just, I was just messaging like somebody like this, my onboarding buddy. Like yesterday I was like, okay, I tried like four different things that are still not working. Do you have some time? And then I just go over, say like, I try this, this and this. And then he's like, oh, yeah, you just missed this thing. I was like, oh, okay.

ADRIANA: It's like, dammit, I wish I'd asked earlier.

MARYLIA: I spent like two days on this thing.

ADRIANA: And that's the thing too. I find when it comes to troubleshooting, like, I don't know about you, but like, for me personally, if I'm like stuck for a problem, stuck on a problem for two days and like, like, I need to have a sense of accomplishment. And when I'm stuck on a problem, there's no, no sense of accomplishment, I feel like my day is a failure. And then, you know, and then it's like, okay, I need to like reach out to people because like, I've tried everything like this, I have to. And then, you know, they, they explain the thing and then everything that you've been doing over the last two days, like, you're like, oh my God, it makes sense. It's like, oh, well, it wasn't a complete waste because look at all the things that I learned along the way.

MARYLIA: And if you don't fix it, you keep thinking of that thing, you go to bed thing. I have, I had like dreams about fixing the things. Sometimes I had a dream like, oh, this is the way. And I'm like, I need to wake up so I can actually fix it.

ADRIANA: Yeah. And that's, that's the other thing. Like I, like, for me personally, I hate letting go even though I know the best thing that I can do is walk away. And I keep making the same mistake over and over again. And sometimes I'm smart enough and walk away. And as you pointed out, like, you, you're working on the problem, you know, like it creeps into your dreams. It's because your brain is still, is still doing the problem solving anyway. So, like stepping away is going to help you so, so much.

Yeah. So, yeah, that, so that any, like, that's, that's the advice to anyone who is stuck troubleshooting away no matter how hard it is. And then, and then to your point of like, you know, don't give away the solution. So that people like, especially more junior people have like, it kind of trains their problem solving brain, right. Because they're used to being given the answer even though you can do it for them in 2 seconds, right? Which is so tempting. And then the other lesson that I learned as well, which I think you hinted at as well, which is like when you do go ask people for help, like show what you've tried.

MARYLIA: Yeah.

ADRIANA: Because, and I still remember, like, this was, I think, the best lesson that I learned in all of university. I don't remember anything that I learned in university, but I do remember one conversation with a professor that I had in statics and I remember coming to his office asking him a question about a problem set that I was working on, and he got mad at me. He's like, you didn't even try. Like, you will...next time you come into my office, you will tell me exactly what you did to attempt to solve this problem. And then we can have a conversation. I remember leaving his office and, like, he's so mean. Mean old man. And, but, like, it's the one lesson that had stayed with me for the longest time in my life because I always think back to him, like, you have to like, show the people that you're asking for help that you've at least attempted so that they know what you've tried, that they know that you're making an effort because otherwise, no one...no one likes someone who doesn't make an effort.

MARYLIA: Yeah, just give me the answer. I was like, okay. Yeah. It's the two things. One is like showing them that you try and the other is like explaining the con-. Because sometimes people don't know what you're working on. So if you say something like, oh, how to connect this thing like, wait, what thing? To what thing? And then sometimes, like, the same word means different thing for different people. Like, okay, you're talking about this system or that system. Like, so if you explain what you try, explain the context, explain what you're trying to do, then sometimes it is so much easier for the person helping you to just, okay, it's this thing or that thing.

ADRIANA: Yeah, exactly. I remember I once posted a question for the OTel Operator folks. I was trying to get, like, a demo working, and I was following, like, a thing in someone's blog post. So I'm like, okay, these are all the things that I tried. These are like, this is the version of, like, the operator that I use in the version of cert manager and blah, blah, blah. And then they're like, oh, what's, what's the version of this other component they use that I'm like, oh, it's this. And they're like, yeah, that's not gonna work. But they were super polite about it.

But, like, you know, being forthcoming and giving that information, and I. And I, you know, in a lot of ways, like, if you've ever worked in QA, I think it trains that part of your brain, right? Because you're used to filing bugs, so you can't file a bug that says it doesn't work. I remember my mom would call me, desperately trying to get her phone to work. It's not working. I'm like, what's not working? You have to give me more information.

MARYLIA: You're not helping me. Why? You can't. I'm trying.

ADRIANA: Yeah. Parent tech support.

MARYLIA: And even, like, different experience are going to, like, solve the same problem a different way. I remember one time that I had an escalation, and it was actually two escalations at the same time by the same customer, but coming from different teams. So I was in...each one was a completely different thing, and I was trying to find out if they were, like, related or not. It was like, a hell of an escalation. And then once I finished, like, okay, I think that was, like, a really interesting one. So I actually present it to my team, and I was like, I'm gonna go over with you with the information that I had at the time, and then all of you are gonna have to, because that was kind of, like, more a critical one. So I didn't have time to, like, stop and show to everybody, was kind of like, go, go, go kind of thing.

But after that, I was like, okay, now this is the information that I had, what all of you would have done here. So they would discuss and say, okay, I think we should do this or that. I was like, okay, this is what I did. Now with this information, what is your next step? So it was also a way of training them on what you would have done kind of thing?

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah. That's so great. That's so great. So you turn like, you know, a, a troubleshooting moment into a teachable moment for the rest of your team. That's amazing. I want to go back to the OTel work that you're doing. So I had a question around, right now you're a contributor to the Node SIG. Are there plans for you to become an approver or maintainer in that SIG?

MARYLIA: Yeah, think that is part of my goal. And even because I'm already like reviewing PRs and I even try to like put comments and approve, but I've been joking, like last week with them, I was like, I am approving, but it doesn't really count because someone else has to come and actually approve for real. But like at least I'm trying to help you because when I find things the person is already fixing. So one time that one of them come, at least it is helpful. I hope so. And then one of them actually commented like, oh yeah, please continue doing this because it helps when we get you to be an approver. That can be in a near future and I'm assuming maintainer is something that takes a longer time.

ADRIANA: I've got my fingers crossed for you. I know it's gonna happen. Yeah. Do you know what the process is for like moving into like an approver role?

MARYLIA: Like, so there is a few criteria. So for example, I think for approver has to be working on the area for at least a month. Had several meaningful contributions and things like that. So I think I'm just completing a month now.

ADRIANA: Oh, wow. Has it...it's only been a month? I guess a little more than a month, right?

MARYLIA: Yeah. It's because like I joined Grafana first week of March, but then we had like the onboarding like in person like the second week and then the third week working like some internal stuff. So when I actually started contributing to like OTel was about my 3rd, 4th week. So it would be like almost a month.

ADRIANA: Oh, wow. Wow, that's awesome. And so like hit the ground running. That's so great.

ADRIANA: That's so exciting. Yeah. So I mean, this shows to anyone who, you know, wants, wants to get on that path towards OTel approver. Like it's, it's doable.

MARYLIA: Pick your, your language, your area, not just SDK. Of course, there is a lot of other project there. And then usually they have the tag for good first issue or like, for grabs, or things like that. So look for those that are an easier entrance for you and then just started sending. And don't be afraid. Usually the first PR is going to have a lot of comments because people don't always read like the how to contribute or like the README. So the format is now is like the writing for the PR and things like that. So don't be afraid. Your first PR, imagine is going to be tons of comments. Then the second one a little less, the third one a little less, and then things will be easier with time.

ADRIANA: Yeah. And I think that's great advice and for people to know what to expect. And the other thing that I will mention is, like, everyone is so polite in their PRs. No one is a jerk so far, like, of all the various PRs that I've made on OTel, no one has been a jerk. Everyone has always very thoughtful comments. And I'm always impressed by, like, how people really take the time to, like, review your stuff properly, which I really appreciate because I'm like, honestly, I'm like, it might be like part of someone's job, but still, like, you know, to put the, to be thoughtful and put in the effort, I think, like, it makes me feel a lot more at ease and makes me feel welcome.

MARYLIA: Yeah. And it shows the value. People are valuing you as well, right? Because people want people contributing. So if you just mistreat people, you're not welcoming them to actually join it.

ADRIANA: So, yeah, so, yeah, I think that's why. Oh, sorry.

MARYLIA: I was gonna say I felt like, very lucky with the people that I interacted with. They were always pretty nice.

ADRIANA: That's so great. And I was gonna say, I think that's why OpenTelemetry, I think, has the highest project contribution in CNCF behind Kubernetes. Which makes me super excited. And, you know, just going back to a point that you made earlier on, like, the types of things to contribute, like, I think people who are contributing to open source for the first time can be so scared to contribute anything or to, like, join a SIG meeting and speak up. And it's so, you know, like, if you're...yeah, I find even if I know what I'm talking about, if I'm like, in a group of people that I don't necessarily know, it can be like, really hard to speak up. So I think even just joining the meetings and just getting used to the people around.

MARYLIA: Join, just listening in. Like the ones that I joined, a lot of people just actually quiet, just listening in. So start with this so you can have, like, a feel of what it is. It's gonna be like, case by case. Of course, like my second week, I was open a bunch of can of worm with my question. I was like, sorry, everybody, but I had to ask.

ADRIANA: Sorry not sorry.

MARYLIA: This is after like, almost 15 years working on the, on this world. So of course it comes with the experience, with time, knowing how to ask a questions again. Also, if I'm asking something, I'm always trying to be respectful, polite, explain the context of the things that I'm trying to do as well. And yeah.

ADRIANA: Yeah, and I think, I think that's the thing, right? You know, we, we talk about, like, people not being jerks when they answer questions, but you can't be a jerk when you ask because otherwise no one's gonna want to talk to you.

MARYLIA: So I created this PR my way. I'm not changing.

ADRIANA: Like, bye, don't want you. Yeah. And I think, you know, once people start interacting with you more and more and you're interacting with them, they, you know, you kind of come to this realization of like, oh, yeah, we're all humans here. We're just trying to do our best and make this project great. And I think that's what's really easy to forget sometimes is like, there are humans behind those avatars on GitHub.

MARYLIA: Yeah. And I think I also got really lucky with this job that Grafana was like, oh, no, your focus is to work on OpenTelemetry. So my day to day is to work on the community and help something that is going to help everybody, not just Grafana. So I think that was definitely something that drove me to come.

ADRIANA: Yeah, that's awesome. And I think it's so nice, too, because, like, you know, open source doesn't happen without, like, the people who put in the time. And I mean, if you're, like, doing open source on the side, like, that is a lot of work. And I know some people do that, but it's nice to be to work at a company where, like, they're committed to that open source project and other companies in the area, in the same industry are also committed to the open source project project. So that it's not like just one main, just one main organization as contributor. And I think, like, I think it speaks volumes more, more so than a company saying, like, we are contributors of open source to actually have dedicated teams that do open source, and I think. I think that speaks volumes. And, you know, like, I'm fortunate as well.

Like, I would say most of my work is spent in OpenTelemetry, and I'm very grateful for it. And as you were saying, you're. You're getting to spend most of your time in OpenTelemetry, and it's great because that's what helps make the community better.

MARYLIA: Yeah.

ADRIANA: Cool. Well, we are coming up on time, so before we wrap up, do you have any words of wisdom or hot takes that you want to share with people? It can be any about anything can be related to any of the topics we discussed today. Your choice.

MARYLIA: Guess I can do, like, a recap of some of the things. Just don't be afraid to ask questions, and don't be afraid to learn, because that is how you grow your career, your knowledge, grow experiences. You're gonna also meet a lot of different people, different cultures when you do that as well. And that is also something always great to just open your mind to see what is out there.

ADRIANA: Yeah. Yeah. And that's such an excellent point. Like, especially in, I think companies more and more are becoming, like, very, very global, but open source, you have no choice. It is extremely global, and it's very interesting when you get to, like, meet the different folks, the different cultures, and I think it makes us. I think it makes us better humans to be aware of and interact and, like, learn to respect these different cultures and points of view. So, yeah, that's amazing advice. Thank you so much.

Well, thank you, Marylia, for Geeking Out with me today. Y'all don't forget to subscribe and be sure to check out the show notes for additional resources and to connect with us and our guests on social media. Until next time...

MARYLIA: Peace out and geek out.

ADRIANA: Geeking Out is hosted and produced by me, Adriana Villela. I also compose and perform the theme music on my trusty clarinet. Geeking Out is also produced by my daughter, Hannah Maxwell, who, incidentally, designed all of the cool graphics. Be sure to follow us on all the socials by going to bento.me/geekingout.