In this episode, we’re joined by author and researcher Gene Kim for a wide-ranging conversation on the evolution of DevOps, developer experience, and the systems thinking behind organizational performance. Gene shares insights from his latest work on socio-technical systems, the role of developer platforms, and how AI is reshaping the shape of engineering teams. We also explore the coordination challenges facing modern organizations, the limits of tooling, and the deeper principles that unite DevOps, lean, and platform engineering.

Mentions and links:

• Phoenix Project
• Decoding the DNA of the Toyota Production System
• Wiring the Winning Organization
• ETLS Vegas
• Find Gene on LinkedIn

Discussion points:

• (0:00) Introduction
• (2:12) The evolving landscape of developer experience
• (10:34) Option Value theory, and how GenAI helps developers
• (13:45) The aim of developer experience work
• (19:59) The significance of layer three changes
• (23:23) Framing developer experience
• (32:12) GenAI’s part in ‘the death of the stubborn developer”
• (36:05) GenAI’s implications on the workforce
• (38:05) Where Gene’s work is heading