What’s the right way to go about being a guest on other podcasts? When’s the last time you went on another show as a guest? As a podcast host, it’s easy to get bogged down in the day-to-day requirements of running a podcast. After all, you’re expected to find guests, record episodes, edit episodes, post everything online, and find fresh ways to get the word out.

Here’s the good news: being a guest on other podcasts is an excellent way to market your own show. Need more convincing? In this episode, we spell out the benefits with Julie Fry, the CEO of Your Expert Guest. Julie and her team are dedicated to finding their clients opportunities to be podcast guests. Turns out, there are plenty of reasons for podcast hosts to moonlight as guests, from positive impacts on your mission and messaging to growing your mailing list. Julie is brimming with tips for streamlining your pitch and plan, highlighting your call to action, and building lasting relationships with hosts and audiences alike.

Guest better (or better yet, start guesting) with Julie’s practical, insightful suggestions:

• Why you need to nail down your guest goals before you dive in
• What really works to get your target host’s attention
• Why you need to purge your pitch of “I” statements
• Key steps for the post-interview follow-up.

Links worth mentioning from the episode:

• The Podcast Host, “Podcast Guests are Secretly Paying $50,000 to Go on Shows”: https://www.thepodcasthost.com/business-of-podcasting/podcast-advertorial-secrets/
• The Canadian Code of Advertising Standards, “Influencer Marketing”: https://adstandards.ca/resources/influencer-marketing/
• Competition Bureau of Canada, “Deceptive Marketing Practices”: https://competition-bureau.canada.ca/en/deceptive-marketing-practices
• Rephonic - https://rephonic.com/
• Listen Notes - https://www.listennotes.com
• Episode 69, Intangible Values of a Podcast, “What It Means For Stats, Metrics, and Monetization”: https://www.organizedsound.ca/intangible-values-of-a-podcast-what-it-means-for-stats-metrics-and-monetization-episode-69/

Connect with Mary!

• Leave a voice note with your feedback at https://www.speakpipe.com/VisibleVoice or email [email protected]
• Get the full transcript of the episode at http://www.visiblevoicepodcast.com
• Read up on more secrets with the Visible Voice Insights Newsletter https://www.organizedsound.ca/newsletter
• To learn more or work with Mary, check out https://www.organizedsound.ca
• Link up on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/marychan-organizedsound/
• Engage on Instagram @OrganizedSoundProductions https://www.instagram.com/organizedsoundproductions

Show Credits:

• Podcast audio design, engineering, and edited by Mary Chan of Organized Sound Productions
• Show notes written by Shannon Kirk of Right Words Studio
• Post-production support by Kristalee Forre of Forre You VA
• Podcast cover art by Emily Johnston of Artio Design Co.

Transcript with Audio Description:

[MUSIC IN - GHOSTHOOD FEATURING SARA AZRIEL “LET’S GO” BEGINS]

MARY: How do you figure out what success looks like when you're a guest on another podcast? What is that return on investment of your time? You know, a lot of people might think, is it really worth it, or is it something I can really do? Is that possible? Spoiler alert. Yes.

In this episode, we're going to talk all about that, but we're also going to focus on what's changing today in the podcast guesting landscape that can really affect you and your podcast. So in this episode, you're going to hear from Julie Frey, the Founder of Your Expert Guest, a podcast visibility agency for women making an impact who want to be heard by their ideal client without spending hours on social media. We're talking effortless visibility by using strategic podcast guesting to grow your own podcast. 

This is episode number 93 with Julie Fry on the Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice. 

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MARY: Julie, thank you so much for coming on the show. I'm so glad we get to reconnect and have this time together.

[MUSIC ENDS] 

JULIE: Me too. Thank you so much, Mary. I'm really excited for this conversation.

MARY: Yes. Because I think there's a lot of, like, myths and things that people have just been doing because it's stuff that is kind of, like, secondhand now. They're like, oh, yeah, I'm a guest, or, oh, if I want to be a guest, I just do XYZ and ta da done. [LAUGHTER] But I feel like it's more than just that. There's strategy involved. And so I was like, ooh, you're the person that needs to come on to talk about podcast guesting.

JULIE: I love that. Yes. There is a lot more to just saying, okay, I'm in a guest on podcasts.

MARY: Yeah. I'm just gonna ask and everything will be okay, but okay. In the work that I do, there's two sides of being a guest. That's just being a guest and not having your own show. And so you're just going on different shows and talking about your message and promoting your work and stuff like that. But there's also the other side of it when you are a host and you have guests. So there's like, the hosting side of it, but in your line of work, you kind of have to deal with both. You know, you're working with people who want to be guests and those that also have their own shows to host them. 

So I want to first dip into why it's really important for hosts who have their own shows to also be a guest, because sometimes I feel like hosts are doing all this work, and then they're like, well, I don't have time to be a guest. So lay that out a little bit about that importance of why it is important to also be a guest when you have your own show.

JULIE: I am often surprised at how frequently I talk to podcasters who tell me that, one, it never occurred to me to guest on other podcasts to grow my own audience, or two, that they have a lot of imposter syndrome around reaching out to other podcasters to be a guest on their show. I'd be curious to see what you find in talking to other podcasters, but those are two of the main things that I hear podcasters saying. 

So I can definitely speak to both of those. We work with clients that have their own podcast and guests on other shows, and then we also have clients that do not have their own show. For the folks that have their own podcast, usually they come to work with us. And because they either don't have the time nor do they have the desire or the they feel like they're just not well equipped…

MARY: Yeah.

JULIE: …to pitch themselves to be a guest. It is fascinating, this peek behind the curtain into human psychology, [LAUGHTER] but in terms of why a host would want to guest on other podcasts, and I'm sure you talk to a lot of your clients about this, is it is a tremendous way to reach new audiences for your own podcast, which, again, if you're guesting, if you have a podcast because you have a business, can ultimately end up driving more referrals or relationships or revenue into your business. 

If you have a passion project, and that's your podcast, it still helps you connect with new listeners, new potential listeners, potential guests for your show. There's just a multitude of reasons of why you would want to do it if you have a show. But those are really kind of the driving factors.

MARY: I totally agree with that. Especially when you were saying how people have, like, maybe that imposter syndrome where they're like, I didn't know I could be a guest. I'm like, yes, you already have all your equipment. I mean, you might as well go and be a guest as well. And to showcase your own show, you can talk about your own podcast on other people's podcasts. And I feel like there's, yeah, that piece that's missing from host's mind, where they're like, oh, that is a way of promotion. And I never, ever thought about that.

JULIE: Yeah, I mean, it's really because you're already doing your own podcast, which is an investment of time and or money to keep it going. So if you are committing to that marketing strategy, then this is a really great way to run alongside of it and really maximize what you're doing in the podcasting space.

MARY: Okay, so let's say someone's decided, alright, I'm going to be a guest. But you know, it's nice to go out and have a conversation with someone like we're doing right now online. That's great. But also we're busy people. A lot of the people that you work with, and I work with too, they're impact driven leaders. You know, they're busy, they have their business, they have their messages to send out and all this stuff. So, what does success actually look like for them when they are guesting? What is that goal that they have in mind?

JULIE: Yeah, I think it's very specific to each individual. That's how we always start a new relationship. Or even a discovery call with a client is what are you hoping to accomplish by guesting on podcasts? And so we have a client right now where she has a book coming out in May. She has her own podcast, but what she is trying to do is grow the awareness of her book. And so we've talked about what sort of metrics that looks like at the end of a certain period of time. And that would be her definition of success with podcast guesting. 

We have another client who's had a show since 2019 and it's very, very niche. But what her success metrics are is the number of discovery calls that she is generating… 

MARY: Mhmm.

JULIE: …as a result of being a guest on podcasts. So it really varies. It is personal. Some people, I mean, we once had a podcaster who worked with us to get on other shows and it was truly a personal development exercise for him. Like he had no goals other than he just wanted to go meet people, talk on other people's shows. Granted, he was a very wealthy individual and not many of us have those resources to just do a personal development exercises. 

But it truly kind of comes down to you asking yourself, what does success look like at the end of a certain time period? Is it a certain number of shows? Is it a certain number of increased downloads for my own podcast? Is it certain number of new leads? Is it revenue goals? So it could be any number of things.

MARY: I really love that because people sometimes think, you know, when they do things like that, they're like, what's the return on investment?... 

JULIE: Mhmm.

MARY: …What are the numbers? What are these download numbers telling me? But I'm like, There's so much more intangible value to having a podcast, to being a guest on a podcast. Like you say, that personal development piece. I mean, that doesn't have to be the main goal, but I think that should be a lot of people's goals, especially when they have a podcast. Because you're just practicing how to say something maybe a little bit differently this time, and then you can hear it back and feel like, oh, I can slightly change the words this way or the meaning this way, and just get a clearer picture of what you're trying to say. When you get to practice as being a guest on other people's shows.

JULIE: Absolutely. We have a client, and one of the first things she said to us after maybe her fourth guest appearance, and she does not have a podcast, but she said, you know what I'm loving about this process is I'm getting so much better at my messaging and hitting the points that I want to make sure I hit in each interview. So, like you said, I think it pushes you to get better at whatever it is that you're talking about. So. Absolutely.

MARY: Yeah, it's that, it's the process of saying things again and again, and it's that piece of practice that I find a lot of people are like, well, yeah, but how do I practice? I don't want to just keep saying the same thing over and over again. I'm like, but that's why you go on shows, so that you get to try out a different flavour of something on a different show.

JULIE: Yes, yes. And part of the fun of this is you get to speak to different audiences, so different segments of listeners, and so you can tweak what you're saying so that you're not saying exactly the same thing over and over again.

MARY: Yeah, exactly. Okay. You know, there's a lot of things that you can Google on how to be a guest. Yet, like we were saying, each show is very different. Everyone sets up their workflow very, very differently. But like, the recommendation for quite a while there was like, everyone needs to have a one sheet. You need to pitch a show with an email, attach the one sheet. It's something, if you Google, you'll probably find it. 

But is that actually something hosts are looking for? Because I know as a host myself, I get bombarded with guest requests, and most of them, I say 99% of them are done very poorly. And I just hit the delete button on that email. So what is actually working to get a host's attention?

JULIE: I'm very curious to know what of the 1% that you say yes to, what is it?

[LAUGHTER]

MARY: Well, it's usually because they haven't said I, I, I, this, like this is an X…

JULIE: Yes.

MARY: …or so and so is an expert at this and they can talk about xyz. I'm like, that's great, but why would my listeners care?

JULIE: Yes, yes, that is what. Uh, in fact I just shared this in our Team Slack channel because somebody pitched me. It was, you know, a cold pitch to have me book a call with someone and it was so eye focused. And as a host, when they're reading a pitch, they don't care about you, they care about their audience and themselves and how you are going to inform them, educate them, entertain them, whatever the case may be. 

So going back to, what do you need to do when you're pitching a host, the first thing that we always suggest is to go to their website. If it's not readily available, do some googling, figure it out, look at the website, read about the host, learn about what they're doing, who are their listeners, do they have any services that they provide that maybe you're a complimentary service provider? So really familiarize yourself with the host. Listen to their episodes, get a sense of what their energy is. So whenever I go on a show, I always listen beforehand. And if the host is like a real fast talker, then I will try to up, I'm a west coast girl, I'm a little bit of a slower talker, [LAUGHTER] but I will try to amp up my speed so that our energies match. Similarly, if they're very slow and methodical, I will slow down so that we're in a similar energy pattern. 

But backing up to that. So you're listening to the episode you're wanting to see. Hey, if I go on this show, is it a podcast that I would be proud to share that I was a guest on? That should always be your number one metric of would this be a good fit for me and am I a good fit for the host? And making sure that there is a reason for you to guest on the show that can benefit the host audience. 

The one sheet, and for those of you that don't know what that is, it's basically a one pager, says who you are, what do you talk about? What other podcasts have you been on or whatever their media appearances have you been on? It's a nice to have. It's not a must have, so if you don't have one, you don't have to let that stop you from reaching out to hosts. So those are just a couple of things to think about. Definitely approach from the standpoint of service and how can I be of service to the host?

MARY: And, you know, people are always busy. So then I start thinking about, well, how much time does this actually take?

JULIE: Again, that kind of comes down to your goals. So if you have very aggressive goals of your marketing a book, or there's something tangible that you are hoping to have come from your podcast appearances, you may need to do more guesting over a shorter period of time. And you knowing that most hosts book about an hour of time for you to record the episode, we usually recommend about a half an hour of prep time beforehand. So you're looking at an hour and a half per guest appearance. So then you can think about how much time you have to budget for that. And then there's, of course, if you are pitching yourself to be a guest on the show versus if you're hiring it out. So, you need to take those things into consideration as well.

MARY: Yeah, that's right. On the show, though, we talk a lot about, like, audio quality and things that support hosting a show. So like I said earlier, right? Like, as a host, you already have the equipment. It easily translates into being a guest. But beyond those basics, like you were saying, you know, it takes usually people book an hour of the time, but what else can podcasters do that they aren't doing right now in the industry enough to prepare for a show? So what are those prepare pieces that we need to do that you aren't seeing people talk about enough?

JULIE: That is a really interesting question. So the approach that we take when we're working with clients is it's kind of a 3R. You're guesting on shows to grow your relationships, increase your referral partners, or drive revenue. Like, those are kind of the three pieces that really can be a great outcome from podcast guesting. So when you're thinking about what your strategy should be is, which of those tenants are most important to you? And so if you're looking to generate, say, more referrals from your podcast appearances, then you're looking at you're really spending more time on the person's website. You're understanding how your business might relate to their business. If you're looking for more downloads or more subscribers for your podcast, what are some really unique ways that you can position yourself when you're pitching and then guesting on the show and then also staying in touch with the host afterwards? 

We're definitely seeing a trend towards being more relational rather than transactional. There were a lot of agencies a few years ago that were like, we're going to book you on four podcasts a month. And that's a lot, for a lot of people. And I think that it shifted the industry to being more transactional, which is guesting for the sake of guesting. Whereas by scaling back the number of podcast appearances that you have and actually making them more intentional to see what you can generate from that relationship, like, how can you two support each other? It really has a lot longer tail than just appearing on a certain number of podcasts per month. So that would definitely be something I would think about and recommend when you're exploring your guesting strategy.

MARY: Yeah, And I think a lot of people forget about that after piece. You know, they're like, okay, how do I get on a show? I'm gonna get on a show, then I do the interview. Oh, I'm done. But you're not, right? Like, there is still the after piece. So what does that look like in terms of, like, aside from social media, because we're getting bombarded with, like, social media these days, and a lot of people are stepping back from that. So what are some other ways that we can promote those episodes that people really aren't talking about these days?

JULIE: Yeah, so there is the obvious, which is social media, of course. However, there are blog posts. So, you know, you can take your interview and turn it into a blog post. That's a great way to show the podcaster that you've guested on there, show some love. By linking back to their website. You can add it to your own website. Perhaps you have an about section or press appearance page that you can add the episode to. 

I'm a big fan of including it in your email, to your email list or your in your newsletter. And one of the coolest ways that I have seen people use their podcast guest episodes is in discovery calls. So especially if you have a business where it's very relationship driven, maybe you're a life coach or a money coach, that if you have an episode where you're talking about things, that it's really important for a potential client to hear this, learn about it, read about it, you can point them to your podcast episode where you're talking about that. So those are a few ways to just continue to promote the show, get it out there outside of just social media.

MARY: Yeah, because it's part of that relational piece you were talking about too, right? It's not just a one and done. I'm on to the next one. But hey, you've actually said some very important points that shouldn't just go away in the Internet. It can be used in other forms, especially to, like, spread your messaging and things that you teach or really value.

JULIE: Yeah. One of the ways that I love to share episodes when I've been a guest on a show is when I share, and mostly I'm. I'm active on LinkedIn, not really any other social media platforms, is I will call out who the podcast is for. So, for example, on this show, you know, I would, are you a podcaster? Like, here's a great show you might be interested in. Here's why. 

So I talk more about the podcast itself and then, oh, by the way, here's my episode where we talked about podcast guesting. I don't really like to shine the light on myself. I like to shine it on other people. So that's a way that works for me to kind of showcase podcast appearances and highlight the show rather than myself, which I feel like is a bit more effective.

MARY: Yeah. And I think it points back to that relationship piece too, because a lot of women, too, are very hard on themselves about promoting themselves, right? And I myself am included in that. So when you said, like, call out who the podcast is for and then sort of just say, okay, yeah, yeah, and here's my episode on it, so you can, you know, listen, I really resonate with that. That is doable for me.

JULIE: Yes, right?

MARY: That is something where I'm like, I'm happy to promote the other show because of XYZ vs I was on this episode. You will enjoy. Because I talk about this, that, and the other thing.

JULIE: I kind of comes back to what you were saying about. What you don't like about podcast pitches is when people are saying, I, I, I. So when you're on social media and you see a post about, hey, are you a podcaster? So lead with a question, which if somebody is a podcaster, they just might be more likely to continue reading that post because you're asking a question and inviting them to with it. So you're kind of allowing people to opt in to the content.

MARY: Yeah. And to start that conversation too, especially with that question off the top, right? Then you're creating that relationship versus. Oh, it's another task I have to do.

JULIE: Just spewing at people. 

MARY: Yeah. Oh, I was on a show. I have to talk about it. Right. Okay.

JULIE: Yes, yes, yes.

MARY: Okay. So we've talked a lot about, like, what to do, but I know there's also like, what not to do. What is one thing that you see everybody is still doing and you're like, this has got to stop.

JULIE: I would say the big one is when you just send the same message to every podcaster, regardless of their show. I know the people listening to your show are not going to do that, but the whole like, spray and pray approach, this just does not work. So please don't do that. That's really key because then you're being authentic. You're showing the host that you've done your research, that you understand who their audience is. And then we touched on it before, is just using all of that “I” language. It is such a turn off. So I would really suggest kind of leading with who the audience is, what the host does, pulling out details from their website or from the podcast that you've listened to that you can speak to in the pitch that shows them you get them.

MARY: Yeah. And what about, like, trends? What are some podcasting trends that people are like, should we be testing these trends out?

JULIE: Yeah. So a big one that we have been seeing since the beginning of this year, there is a lot more pay to play. So that means you send a pitch to a host, they respond back. And this actually just happened yesterday to a team member of mine. So it's a show that we had previously booked a client on and it's a decent show. It's in like, the top half of a percent. And the host replied back and said, hey, your Susie Q client looks really great.we now charge $950 per…

MARY: What?

JULIE: …appearance to be on the show. So we are just seeing a lot more of that. And I think it's coming from. And this is another trend is that there is just a lot more competition to get on podcasts. So what I will say for podcasters and why you have a really big leg up is that you do have a podcast. And so, if you are open to having a podcast swap where you go on one person's show and then they also appear on your show, then you do have a higher likelihood of getting that interview. 

We'll say that is something that if you're open to doing that it really can generate better results for you. So that's definitely one trend that we're seeing. I think that there are some coaches out there that are encouraging people to monetize their podcasts in that way. It's really tricky because it's not really on the up and up with FTC standards…

MARY: Mhmm.

JULIE: …and how they're supposed to be disclosure. If you're paying to be a guest, there's a whole article I could send you if you wanted to put it in the show notes… 

MARY: Yes.

JULIE: …That might be interesting for people to see. So the other thing that we are seeing that's trending is it used to be that if you were going on a podcast, you would come up with some sort of free resource that you would gift to people at the end of your interview and people would get a lot of email signups from that. I think that just because email marketing has been around for, gosh, what are we going on now? Like 20 years? Maybe longer… 

MARY: Maybe longer.

JULIE: …That those. We're in 2025 now. Yeah, time flies that those email signups are going down. So one of the trends that we are suggesting is just to be very clear about your call to action. So if it is you want to get more, more listeners for your podcast, make sure that you're seeding your podcast throughout the interview. You're talking about it throughout the interview, and then at the end you're reiterating, you know, go check out my podcast and share the name. It's great to share those links of the email resources when you're providing the links for the show notes, but we tend not to recommend that as like your number one call to action for people anymore. So those are a few of the things that we're seeing both on the guesting and kind of the ROI side of being a guest on podcasts.

MARY: Is there like that again, the psychological piece of consumers? Is there that layer of friction or is it just because we're so bombarded with so many things… 

JULIE: Yeah.

MARY: …that we don't want to sign up for? Another thing.

JULIE: Yeah, I think it's email fatigue. I know we all our inboxes are overflowing. There's so much that we have in there. So it has to be something super valuable if you're going to get somebody to click through. It cannot just be a one page PDF of something that they could easily Google or now ChatGPT to get the answer to.

MARY: Yes. Exactly.

JULIE: The one thing that we are seeing work pretty well is if you have a, like a video training series that you might actually charge for. Maybe it's a lower price point. Like, if you had something about, you know, starting your own podcast and maybe you charge $39 or $49 for it. If you turn that into a free offering for people to get at the end of the interview, we are seeing that those are working.

MARY: Oh, interesting. Yeah. So I guess that comes down to, like, your. If it's really worth it and it's high value, they will go out of their way and do that. Yeah.

JULIE: And there's the psychological piece of, ooh, I'm getting something that's worth $50 for free. Yes, I will sign up for that.

MARY: Mmm. True, true. There's a lot to do with, like, money and the economy and revenue. Like, I was just thinking back to how you were saying,... 

JULIE: Mhmm. 

MARY: …you know, the guest is like, pay to play. And I actually saw that a lot in the. The earlier years of podcasting. People were doing that, and then they stopped because they were like, oh, yeah, there's rules and stuff. So it's interesting to hear that it's back.

[LAUGHTER]

JULIE: Yes, it is. And maybe it is, uh, you know, an economy situation where people are feeling anxious or maybe they are already starting to see impacts to their revenue, so they're trying to generate a new revenue source. Could be that too.

MARY: Yeah, yeah. Because there are, like, a lot of people who, yes, they like hosting a podcast. Yes, they enjoy it, and it can be a passion project, but it still costs time and money, and they want to recoup some of that. And so this might be that. Yeah, economy at play. And they're like, how can I make more money or just make money, period?

JULIE: Yeah. But what's interesting to me is the podcast that we are seeing this from primarily is the hosts have this podcast as a way to market their own business. So they do definitely have a business that is generating revenue anyway, so this is maybe just another additional revenue stream for them.

MARY: Oh, I see. Yeah, and that's, I think, where you're mentioning, like, the business coaches, whoever those are, are probably. [LAUGHTER] It's like the new thing, right? The new business coach trend...

JULIE: Yes. Yes. 

MARY: …I can see that connection there. Okay, so we know that podcasting, the whole industry changes so much all the time. Like, we were just saying, these are things that are coming up. And. But as you know, things are changing so fast. But in this moment in time, as we're recording this, what are you excited about podcasting right now?

JULIE: Yeah. So I still think it is the number one way, whether you have your own podcast or you decide to guest alongside having your own podcast, it is one of the best ways to network and grow your relationships and meet new people, which then leads to new opportunities. It is such a unique platform to be able to just go deep with one person for 30 minutes, 45 minutes, and really share your story. 

So if you have a business, like, why did you start your business? What's your mission? What are your values? What sort of transformations are you helping your clients with? So there just are not many places outside of public speaking where you have someone's attention for that period of time. So I'm still really excited about the opportunity that podcasting and guest podcasting represents from that standpoint. 

I also, from a getting on podcasts, or finding aligned podcasts for you, there are more tools than ever to make it really easy for you to find those, outside of Google. There are paid tools, there are free tools, but it's a growing space, and so it will save you more time when you are doing the research to try to find the show. So that's something else that's really cool about the research piece, because I know it can take hours and hours to find good fit shows.

MARY: Okay. Podcasters are usually very budget conscious because, as I was saying, people are always looking for ways to make money from their show or even just, you know, recuperate that cost. So you're talking about these tools. What kind of tools? Which ones are free and which ones work?

JULIE: Yeah, yeah. So we use a database, and it is called Rephonic. So they have a free trial. I think it's seven days. But it's a good way to kind of dip in there. You can search by keywords. They will have great profiles for each show as far as what their audience is, what types of guests do they have. You can see stats on estimated listeners. And so from a demographics and audience perspective, it's a really great way to just see, ooh, would this be a good fit for me? You know, as I mentioned, it's a free trial for a certain period of time, and then it moves into paid tiers. But if you're really serious about guesting, that would be a great paid tool to explore. 

There are other databases like Listen Notes, where you can type in a show, you can see where the podcast ranks in terms of global popularity, and then over on the right hand side, it shows you shows that other people listen to. So that's another great place just to kind of dip your toe in the water for free and enter your own show in and see what comes up as far as aligned audiences. You know, ChatGPT, it's not great, but it's getting better. [LAUGHTER] And it kind of all comes down to the prompts. It still really likes to give you the most popular large podcasts in whatever industry you ask it about. But if you get very specific with your prompts, like, I'm looking for podcasts that are active and have a certain number of listeners. And, you know, for people who are writing a book, it will give you some decent suggestions. It might take a little bit of tweaking, but that's another good tool to find podcast ideas.

MARY: Yeah, it's great, but you still have to have a human being on the other side of it.

JULIE: Oh, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Like, you have to, you know, go in, double check, because sometimes it will tell you shows that aren't active anymore. It will give you shows that don't take guests. So you do need to do your research. Cross those T's, dot those I's, make sure that the podcasts that you are pitching yourself to actually do take guests.

MARY: Yeah, exactly. Julie, it's been amazing to chat with you. I've got a lot of notes that I've taken down. So thank you so much for sharing your insights and your time with me today.

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JULIE: Thank you so much, Mary. It was really fun talking to you.

MARY: You know, in the intro, I talked about what success looks like for being a guest on other people's shows. And some of the things that Julie mentioned was very similar, actually, to what I call the intangible values of a podcast. It's something that I talked about in episode number 69. And it actually reminded me of a client of mine right now because. Because podcasts are worth so much more than just the download numbers or how much money you can make from it. And again, another spoiler alert. Not very much at all, actually. 

So if you are tying your podcast to this monetization strategy, and advertising, and making money from your podcast, that goes into just looking at those download numbers a lot. But creating a podcast has so many more intangible values, and I love that one of her clients was saying that it's just a personal development piece. And you know what? It's great because I have another client who did that, too. She started a podcast because she was like, I just want to meet people, and I think this would be a cool place to do it. And, yes, it can be done with the podcast. 

But from the industry side, too, as you heard, I. I was really blown away by shows adding a cost to a guest spot so you had to pay to play, which, like Julie said, has some challenges with those FTC rules. And we'll add that link to the show notes so you can make sure you can click on that and read up on it. That's the FTC in the United States. But of course, here in Canada, I am Canadian, we have our own version The Competition Act, which regulates advertising and marketing. And the Canadian Code of Advertising Standards was actually updated in 2023 to include influencer disclosure, which I believe when you are paying someone, this can look like a contract, right, for a promoted product or service because money is being exchanged. So there's that fine line here. In this digital age, things are being updated. There are codes and standards to follow. So we need that transparency if you ever decide to charge someone a fee or their appearance on your show. 

So I'd be curious to actually see where this is headed and to see if it even is going to exist more in the coming years because of the economy and people trying to find more ways of generating revenue. Because podcasting is tied to a business usually. But I'd also be curious, just like for your own podcast, is this something that you even thought of doing? Is this something you were actually practicing? I'd love to know. And yet, though, you know, what doesn't change through this whole changing landscape of ours is that being a guest on someone else's podcast really is that human connection that we talked about. Yes, for you as being the guest, but also that connection for a listener. Podcast guesting is a great way outside of social media for you to talk about your messaging, your values and your podcast. So this way you get to connect to potential new listeners for your own show. 

So, yeah, what have you seen in your guesting appearances? Have you been a guest before? And if not, what's stopping you from being a podcast guest? I'd love to hear about it. As always, leave a message on my website with a voice note with that send voicemail purple button. Or as usual, you can drop me an email as well at [email protected]. 

On the next episode, we're going to talk strategies for interview podcasts and leaning more towards this guest theme for your own show when you are figuring out who will be a guest on your show, when you're being selective on who you want to showcase, this has a huge strategy behind it. So looking forward to chatting about that with you next time on the show. 

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MARY: Thank you so much for listening to the Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice. If you enjoyed this episode, I'd love it if you share it with a podcasting friend. And to reveal more voicing and podcasting tips, click on over to VisibleVoicePodcast.com. Until next time.

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