By Mary Chan, Organized Sound Productions
5
66 ratings
The podcast currently has 87 episodes available.
How do conversation skills make your podcast process more enjoyable? Even if we’re lucky enough to “do what we love,” work tends to have tedious aspects we don’t like. Craig Constantine is a passion podcaster who, through the creation of thousands of episodes and rigorous reflection, has built a workflow that simplifies every step of his method, from prep to publication.
A consummate conversationalist, Craig’s overarching goal is to use understanding and compassion to have exciting exchanges that inspire listeners to dive directly into meaningful dialogues. In this episode, he gets into the nitty-gritty of the personal process that led him to discover his devotion to podcasting.
Let Craig’s passion inspire you to:
Consider why you might not want to bring your prepared questions into the conversation
Approach AI tools to create the perfect research assistant
Simplify your process to make it more fun in the long run
Links worth mentioning from the episode:
Listen to Episode 51, Honing Your Podcast Voice Through Second Language Learning with Stephanie Fuccio - https://www.organizedsound.ca/honing-your-podcast-voice-though-second-language-learning-with-stephanie-fuccio-episode-51/
Engage with Craig:
Keep on top of what Craig is up to - https://craigconstantine.com/current-projects/
Connect with Mary!
Show Credits:
Transcript with Audio Description:
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MARY: Every podcast is unique, not only in its content, but also how you produce and create it. That workflow that I've talked about before, no one way is the right way or wrong way to create a podcast. And that's actually what I love about today's guest Craig Constantine.
He's all about his passion project, podcasts of having conversations. His goal of having a podcast will be different from yours, but what I really resonated with him is his desire to audit his own workflow. What's working for him before, during, and after the recording.
Craig Constantine, who's on a mission to create better conversations, to spread understanding and compassion, is a passionate podcaster. He does a lot of things that I know podcasters want to do, but never make the time to do it. So he's here to share how he's got multiple shows to his name with hundreds and hundreds of conversations published to share his podcasting journey. You can hear the passion in his voice for the work and the dialogue that he wants to have. So take a listen to this episode on how he analyzes his podcast to make things simpler for his world and how you can make similar reflections on yours.
This is episode number 84 of the Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice.
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MARY: Craig, thank you so much for coming on the show. We've had a great little preamble so far, so I know this is going to be a good one.
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CRAIG: Oh, no pressure. But thank you so much for inviting me. You get the prize for, of all the people who ever asked me to be on their show, you're the one who worked the hardest. So thank you so much for that.
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MARY: A lot of logisticals behind the scene, and, you know, personal schedules and stuff.
CRAIG: You actually hunted me down. You asked me through a service that we're both on, and I totally ghosted you, like a lot of people. And then you went and found my website and found my contact form and emailed me, and I'm like, wow, all right, this person is motivated. Yes, I want to be on the show.
MARY: Well, what you do is intentional practice of conversations, and I think that is so unique because a lot of people find podcasting as like, oh, I can talk, I'll just plug a microphone in and start talking. > But what is intentional conversation? Why is it so important to you?
CRAIG: Well, it's important to me because I found myself having more and more really great conversations, and that's like a whole separate story. And the more that I learned how to shut up and listen, which took me longer than it should have, the more I shut up and listened, the more I enjoyed the conversations and the more other people seemed to enjoy them. And then the people lurking around it enjoyed them too.
So I started wondering, well, this isn't new. Humans have been doing this for a long time. And the more that I looked into it, now I have a books problem. You know, like, oh, here's a book from 150 years ago where somebody had all these things. And then I started having conversations that I was intentionally picking challenging guests. Not that the people were challenging, but, like, I have no knowledge about the topic we're going to have this conversation about, then, what would the skills be that I would need to have that be a good conversation when I'm totally floundering every second of the way?
And I'm like an autodidact nerdy self learner. So it works well for me to be like, whoa, that sucked. That was horrible. And then I, like, write down, why did suck? What was wrong with it? How could I make it better? So I'm always preaching, like, you know, take notes and reflect, um, on your conversations, reflect on your life in general, and figure out, could I try something different next time? Or maybe that just, it happened. The bird flew into my head. That, that went weird.
MARY: So then what do you need then to have a conversation? Because, you know, you were saying, I stopped talking, so I listened. But when people think of dialogue, well, you gotta talk. So how do you define that art of conversation?
CRAIG: That's a really hard question. That's two different questions. How do I define the art of conversation? I'm gonna ignore how I define it. That's hard. I would say that you actually, you don't really have to talk for it to be a good conversation. And a lot of times when I'm having conversations with people, they are already aware of my, my issues of, like, wanting to dig into the meta.
But even when I'm talking to people who don't know anything at all about me, they have an agenda and the real question is, when you're having a conversation with someone, is the other person aware of their own agenda? That's really, like, determines are we going to have a spectacular conversation. So Mary has ideas about where this conversation is supposed to go, ideas about what she wants the two of us to find here for the people who are listening. So that's like the biggest switch or choice. Like, when I'm having a conversation with someone, I'm, as best I can, always intentional about why I'm here, what I'm saying, why I'm saying, and I'm always curious, like, what is the other person thinking when they started talking? Were they just talking at me because they haven't seen me in a week, or are they really interested in something?
So that's like, the first thing is like, are both people on the same page about what does it mean to have a good conversation? Some people, they just talk. I'm not saying that's bad. It's just, you know, that's a deli conversation that's going to be a little more shallow maybe, or a little different.
MARY: Yeah. What about then in the role of podcasting? That being intentional piece, do you then prep your questions and you have your set questions, or do you allow that conversation to unfold? Because, like you said, everyone's got an agenda.
CRAIG: Yes. It depends on what you mean by you. So if you mean, does Craig? I generally don't write down my questions anymore in the very, very beginning, which would be like 2017. So I was kind of late to the party, but when I started, yes, I used to be intentional about, the show was all about movement, I would be intentional about, I'm going to talk to this person because I have this question or this story I want to know. And I would write down my questions, and I would imagine, like if I wasn't thinking story arc, but I was kind of imagining a story arc about, I want to start here and then I want to go here, and I want to end over there if I can.
So in the beginning, yes, I totally did that. And I got heavily involved in coaching podcasters. I've literally helped thousands of people as an assistant coach in courses. And that's a very good question for people to ask. So I say yes, in the beginning, write literally, preferably with a pencil, not like typing on your computer, because writing is different than typing.
MARY: Yeah,
CRAIG: Write your questions out in whatever your chicken scratch looks like. And then when you get to the recording, don't bring your notes. That's what I tell people, because the notes will distract you. I have a blank piece of paper on the table in front of me just in case I need to write something down. But when you go into those recordings as the host, all of that homework that you did, you're not going to forget it. It's going to be in the back of your head.
So I would say yes, I used to write things down, and I do recommend that that's a great place to start. And then eventually I can hold the questions in my head for weeks. I think about someone, you know, and I listened to one of your episodes as I was preparing for this, and I had, oh, that's interesting. And I see the kinds of things that Mary is attracted to, and I feel like I have enough things in my head that I could, I don't want to, but we could probably flip this around, and I could probably, you know, be the host if I had to, but I don't want to. > That's, if you ask Craig, how Craig does it, how does everybody else do it? I don't think people write their questions down based on what I hear, When I hear people.
MARY: Certain shows, there are some shows where it's like, bam, bam, bam, question, question. There was, like, no follow up. And I feel like, yeah, that's not good either.
CRAIG: Right. That's the other problem. That's the opposite of prepared.
MARY: Yeah, exactly. So then if you don't write your questions, it feels a lot to me, too, about when I worked in radio, we called this show prep. You know, it's all about being prepared and kind of knowing, like you said, that agenda. But having the follow up questions are the sparks in that conversation. So do you then, have, like, a toolbox of ways to guide a conversation, or like,...
CRIAG: Oh yeah.
MARY: …those. Oh yeah? Yeah. Okay, What is that?
CRAIG: So there's a whole bunch of them, and rather than try to rattle them off, but just kind of, like, paint kind of what they are.
MARY: Yeah.
CRAIG: I have these ideas in mind about, I have a visual, I live, like, 2 hours from Manhattan, so I've been there a bunch of times. And if you ever walk down Broadway is, like, the biggest street, you can walk the whole length of the place. I imagine that in conversations, I'm walking with someone.
So if I'm talking with someone and something strange happens, like, they ask me a question that I wasn't expecting, or they give me a strange answer, or they stopped, like, something weird happens. I'm imagining they, like, turned left into a side street. And my reaction needs to be not, wait, where are you going? Yeah, come back. My reaction needs to be, well, that's interesting. And follow, like, go with them. So I'm always trying to listen, air quoting is useless, you can't even see. I'm trying to listen not only to the words that they're saying, but the emotions that they're conveying. The emotions maybe they're trying to convey, which could be different, and try to imagine what is the experience that that person is having.
So I'm always yammering about my mission is about creating better conversation to spread understanding and compassion and empathy is close, but I think empathy is a thing that might come later after understanding and compassion. And I feel like that is what I'm trying to do, is I'm trying to deploy understanding and compassion as a tool.
So in a conversation, when something weird happens, I'm thinking, do I understand? Like, that's my first thought is, do I really understand what just happened here? Like, maybe I don't understand and I should ask a question about what just happened here. So I have, like, lots of nerdy tools that I can bring up, but they all fit in that toolbox of my first, you know, do I understand? And then, am I being compassionate? Is this person freaking out because Craig's too energetic for them? Like, that happens to people. I understand.
MARY: You mentioned empathy, and I feel like empathy is very similar to compassion.
CRAIG: Yes.
MARY: So how do you differentiate that?
CRAIG: The way that I think of it is that empathy is about the feeling and compassion is about, I don't want to say doing something about it, but imagining what could be done, either generally or that I should be doing. So, empathy, if you're empathic and you can't distance yourself from that, that's really hard. That's people who, like, if the elections go bad and then they have, like, a nervous breakdown, I’m like, well, okay, I mean, you're feeling for those other people, but you really need to be able to control that. You have to have boundaries. You have to be able to protect yourself physically and emotionally.
So, empathy, I think of as like, a feelers reaching out, sensitivity. And even I would say I'm pretty empathic. But even if you're really empathic, you really never know. You really can't say, I know what you're feeling, but that would be the goal, would be to feel outward. And then the compassion is, all right if I understand what's going on and I have some empathy for the person, the situation, or whatever we're talking about, then I might, if I'm a compassionate person, I might begin to imagine, is there something I could do about that? Could I help that person pick up whatever they dropped? Or could I donate money to this charity? Or could I help push this car out of a snowbank? That's the kind of thing that I do because I'm a large guy, you know.
But if you didn't have empathy for the person who was stuck in the snowbank, you'd just be like, sucks to be you. And you'd walk right by, you know? So that's why when I wrote my mission. That's why I wrote compassion rather than empathy, because I feel like empathy, I don't want to say it's easier, but I felt like I already had enough empathy and I wanted to work on the compassion part. So very, the mission is very specific to me, of course.
MARY: What about then, if you're in a conversation with someone and you don't agree?
CRAIG: That depends on why I'm in the conversation. So I don't do journalistic interviews, just because it's not my cup of tea. But I've listened to a lot of journalists talk about their process. And, yeah, if you're a journalist and you're supposed to be getting facts or truth or you're trying to, you know, uncover a particular story, if people say something you disagree with, you need to push back, and you can push back nicely. You can ask clarifying questions. You can, you know, throw in juxtapose. I thought it was X. You can make jokes. There are ways to reveal questions without actually asking questions, which then lets the two of us stand in one place and point at the question over yonder without it getting very antagonistic.
So there are things you can do to sort of direct, or in this case, redirect the conversation where you hope it would go. But that's not normally what I do because I'm not a journalist looking for something I don't have, like a target I'm aiming for, which kind of cuts both ways. Not having a target makes it harder because I think it would be easier if I knew where I was supposed to be going. So I don't often find myself in situations where, no, that's wrong, and I need to get you to tell me the other thing, so.
MARY: Yeah, it's just a matter of, okay, yes, you've said what you've said now. Oh, I'm going to ask you this question to, to redirect.
CRAIG: Yeah, ask more questions. Ask different questions. You were asking for about tools earlier. I sometimes talk about people's salience, the word salience. Humans are spectacular at noticing salience. I always say I'm afraid of three kinds of snakes, little snakes, big snakes, and any stick that looks anything at all like a snake. So snake fear and, like, falling. These are wired in.
So there are other things, in conversations when you're listening to someone and you have an agenda and a story arc and a plan, and your brain suddenly goes, wait, what? And, like, it grabs these two things. The thing that you thought you were going to ask about and the thing that just lit you up, you have these two. Those things are related. I'm telling you, they are. That's what your brain just went, these are related. And you could just say, I wonder if these two things are related. You can just say that I do that and give people two, you know, like cheese and sneakers, and people will go, huh, that's a really good question. And then they'll think about it, and it's.
Conversations are just people sharing ideas. There's no rules about my ideas have to follow logically and clearly from the last. It can be whatever two people want to share. So I really feel like people, like I've said, I've seen a lot of people do this. A lot of people take courses and say, how do I do interviews? They really undervalue this magical, I don't want to say device, because your brain's not a computer, but, like, this magical power that you have about identifying the things that light you up. That already works. So that's probably what your podcast is about. If you have a day job as a journalist, then you got to work a little harder, because now you have to. You have to aim those tools at a specific. My producer said, I must do X.
MARY: Yes.
CRAIG: Just a little harder.
MARY: Yeah. Like you were saying we're not computers, right? This. This isn't an AI interview.
CRAIG: Whew, good.
MARY: You know, we are humans. We have emotion. We have feelings in our bodies that will then guide us to. Okay, what is that curiosity piece? What is that follow up question?
CRAIG: Why am I upset all of a sudden?
MARY: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, like, go with that feeling in your body and make sure that, you say it out loud.
CRAIG: Yeah. A lot of times, just naming the thing goes a long way toward helping both parties understand, because sometimes people say something and, you know, somebody's triggered, and if you're really good at hiding that, well, that's not helping anybody. I mean, maybe if you're really triggered, you're trying to leave the space. Okay. But if it's the kind of thing that can be discussed, people can't read minds. I used to make that error a lot. I'm like, the other person opposite me is fuming. And I don't know.
MARY: Yep. You can still hear it in their voice, even though you can't see them fuming. Like in the podcasting world.
CRAIG: Yeah. Audio is magical.
MARY: Yeah. Is magical that way, for sure.
Let's move into a little bit with your podcasting journey. You have two active shows right now. Even one show is a lot, like, how. How do you manage all of this?
CRAIG: Oh, I actually have. Well, if you want to count accurately, I have five active shows.
MARY: You have five active, oh geeze.
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CRAIG: Okay. All right. So how do I manage it? I have a pride problem. I love, you know, shiny things. I love to go after them.
So the very first show that I created, I did not set out to make a podcast. I didn't say, I want to become a podcaster. This is the thing I want to do. I was literally having cool conversations in movement spaces. I would be out, like, in London running and jumping and playing with people at an event or doing a thing, and then I'm the kind of person who just walks up to someone and says, whoever they are, oh, hey, and we start talking.
And then I turn around, there's people walking behind us because I'm talking to somebody semi-famous. And then they say, you should have recorded that. I would have listened to that. That's literally how I got into podcasting. Then I was like, well, I guess I should get some SM58 mics and a little interface. I just started basically pressing record on conversations that I was having. So I'm super lucky, super privileged that that happened to me.
So that's how I started into it in 2017. And I did, like, 40 episodes with no clue what I was doing. Just like, you know, like, I don't know, let's try this. I had a friend who knew how to edit. I'm like, hey Brian, and he's like, use this mic and get this interface. And, you know, like, people just giving me tips. And I went about, like, 35 or 40 episodes along. And then I took a course. And I took the course not, and it's. It was a sofa, I call it sofa to 5K. I had a podcast course, and I already knew all that. I had 40 episodes out.
MARY: Yeah.
CRAIG: But I wanted to completely tear it apart, and I did. I took it all apart, and I, like, changed the descriptions, and the course made me think about things differently. It was one of the greatest things I ever did. And I met a whole bunch of people who were passionate about podcasting. That was the third time they ran the course. I went back as an assistant coach for 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, and 11, for the runnings of the course, till they stopped the course.
And along the way, I kept having more ideas. So the first show was, I was having conversations. People wanted to hear them. But the next show which came out, I was like, I wonder what would happen if you did a daily podcast. That was just me for 30 seconds reading a quote every day and didn't tell anybody. Just, like, stealth launched the thing. So I did 1,400 episodes of that show.
And then while that show was going on, I started a podcasting community, and I started interviewing the other podcasters in the community and working my way up with, like, who should I talk to after I did a show? And that show was all about podcasting.
So once I fell backwards into it and figured out how to do it, then it became this. Like, I imagine painters might just, oh, I got a paint. They run to the easel and they start painting. And, like, I do that with podcasting. I, like, I run to the microphone and I start making. Or I get people and I make a recording. So that's how I wound up with all these shows. It's really not any harder to have five shows. It's just, how many episodes are you doing? That's all that really matters.
MARY: Yes.
CRAIG: So, uh, you also, I haven't forgotten, you asked me, how do I do it? But if you want to follow up on that before I tell you how I do it. Or I can just tell you how I do it.
MARY: Yeah, how do you do it?
CRAIG: How do I do it? I'm a checklist and process nerd. So I have, for every one of the shows, I have a separate document that I maintain that tells me every detail. Like, this is the, you get an e nine minor guitar chord, goes here as the music bumper, and then the intro, and it has every step all the way through to emailing the guests at the end to say, thank you, your show is published. Here's the, you know, please share.
And if you do ten of those, then you'll be editing your list. And then the list gets a little more detailed. And eventually, all of the things that used to make me get stuck, I don't want to do the editing. I’m, I don't like editing. Oh, I don't want to do the show notes. All these things that I get stuck on. I just kept making it simpler. What's the simplest thing that could possibly work? And that's what I, and I broke it down to more and more steps until, when I look at the checklist, I have an episode that you go out sometime this week, and the next checkbox is so easy. I'm like, you know, I could totally do that, that I could do that.
And that's. That was how I broke it down, was to just make it simple enough that I could find a simple next step for whatever was going on. And then the checklist helped me remember. So if I'm not doing anything for three weeks. When I come back. Oh, right, here's where I was. Here's how I start, here's how I finish.
MARY: What's an example of making it simpler? What does that mean?
CRAIG: So we were talking about AI before. I use ChatGPT to write the episode notes. Shhh. I say that at the bottom, I wrote, written with, actually, it's written with help from ChatGPT.
MARY: Yes. I was just going to say, I like that you have it written down.
CRAIG: I'm a computer nerd, but I'm not an AI. Like to me, I was like everybody else, a what? How do you work this? I had no clue. But I have a checklist that helps me prompt the AI to give me what I want. So just like little nuances of sentences, like I'm resisting urge to open it up and read them, but it's like these really detailed, like, I want, say, I want one sentence to be the hook sentence for the thing that might be like 120 word paragraph that I've slowly fiddled with and kept in a document.
So now when I learn what the hook sense, that it's like copy, paste, and it actually says, write me five variations of a sentence and then it tells it what to do and then it writes me five sentences and I look at them and none of them are good enough. But somebody, once I forget where this comes from, somebody said, working with AI fixes the blank page problem, so you should totally use it for everything because it will do a terrible job and you will rush to fix it’s work. And it gets me going every time.
So like, I rush and I'm like, no, no, you cannot use the word delve. No, no, no, edit the sentence, right? And then I edit my instructions and I say, you may not use the word delve. Put that in the instructions. So now when I have to write episode notes for like, say, a 15 minute conversation, I'm like, I can do that in 3 minutes. Watch this. > And I'm all done, you know, copy and paste and, and I have to edit, you know, like everybody has their personal writing style. I don't bother to try and make it do my style. I just edit the thing. I look at the paragraph and I go, hey, I don't like this part. Edit it. And then at the bottom I just write, written with help from ChatGPT.
I tell everybody who asks, like podcasters. It's like having the greatest research assistant. This person is tireless. They have infinite patience. No matter how many dumb questions I ask, they're just like, here's your answer. You can, like, just ghost them for two weeks, come back, they pick up right where you left off without a single. As long as you realize it's really more about, I think of it like the first stage on the rocket launch. Get me moving, get me off the ground here so I can get a feel for what this thing is supposed to be. And that's what I use it for.
MARY: What about not AI? What can you make simpler? That has nothing to do with AI, because that's what everybody's talking about these days.
CRAIG: I stopped editing my shows. How about that one? If you've listened to, so the one show is called Movers Mindset is 170 episodes. I think Podtalk is at 150 or something like that. And basically the last hundred plus maybe 150 episodes on those two shows that I've released. I don't edit the audio.
Now, full disclosure, I'm actually hard of hearing. I have hearing aids and crappy hearings. I'm a terrible audio editor to begin with, but I also can't afford to pay ninety cents a minute to edit all this stuff. So I went, well, what if I had a conversation that was so good, there wasn't anything that had to be cut out? How would you do that? Yes, and then work on that for 300 conversations. I've done about 500 recorded conversations for my shows, for other shows, not counting my guesting appearances. And every time I do them, I listen back and I'm like, why did I say that? Why didn't I shut up? > Because a lot of times the guest is about to say the great thing, and I'm still like, wait, you got to hear me. It's like, no, I'm the host. Shut up.
So I've looked at, like, exactly what percentage of myself, when I'm the host, do I want in the audio? The answer is 25%. I want one quarter Craig and three quarters of the guest. And I occasionally drop that into Otter, which will give you a percentage speaker rating. And I make sure I'm at the target number that I want. And if I'm over or under, then I think about that for my next conversation.
So, if you don't want to edit, could you just make the conversations better? Could you screen out people who are poor speakers unless you really need them? Like, there can be issues sometimes. I won't really want to guess because I want that representation. I really want this voice to be heard of. So I'm willing to live with thumbs and aahs and pauses. Just put it out raw you know, edit the levels, run the anti white noise background thing, 30 seconds. I mean, sometimes I'm, I have a 45 minutes conversation. It takes me five minutes to go from raw audio to mp3, final mix down, including the time it takes my Mac to make the mp3. It's, you know, because otherwise I wouldn't get it done if I didn't cut that corner.
And there are other ones, like, I stopped doing introductions in the guest. Like, I never, when I'm recording, I never ask the guest to tell me who they are. Tell us, no, that's a disaster. And I don't. I don't read that in anymore for a while. I would open the show by saying, oh, my guest today is. I skipped all that. I got tired of recording intros and outros because I actually don't think people listen to them. So I skip them. My show opens, and I say, Hello, I'm Craig Constantine. There's like a sentence or two of what the show is. And then I asked the guest the first question, and we just have a conversation.
There are other things about, oh, I can only do so much social media. So I have a WordPress plugin. I hit a button, and it just posts the three platforms. And then I'm like, good enough. Yep. I'm not making short form. I figured out how to do YouTube auto load from RSS. Good enough.
MARY: Done. Yes.
CRAIG: Moving on. I just looked at every single thing on the list that was in my head, and I went, this is stressing me out. Write it down. And then when I looked at the list written down, I identified, I can't do this. This is too much. I want to have hundreds, thousands of great conversations, and I don't want to do all these pieces. So delete pieces until I only want to do the part between record and stop and anything else that I absolutely have to, to make the show go out.
MARY: And I think that's the difference, too, between people who are podcasting as a passion, like you do, or those who are like, I need to generate income, so I have to do X, Y, and Z, right? So it's like talking about that agenda piece. You were, you were saying at the very beginning, it's like, what is your goal for your podcast? So what would you define as success, then, for your podcast?
CRAIG: Oh. Sometimes people can read each other's minds. I was listening to some of your shows, and that's a question you ask often because it's super important. And I'm like, this would be the spot where we need to talk about what Craig thinks success is.
Success, in my opinion, for my shows is so for the two shows that have guests, if somebody listens to an episode and then they manage to email in real life, whatever, talk to the guest and they can skip over the parts that make conversations suck and go right to the good part. That's the definition of success for my show.
So one of the shows is all about parkour and has french names and all these things, and there's people who run and jump and play all over the world, and everybody's pretty famous that I'm talking to. If they, somebody runs into that person and says, hey. And just goes right to the part of the conversation where both of them are enjoying it. Not, my guest, who's semi famous is like, oh, another fan. But where the fan comes up and says something and that person goes, oh, yeah, I'd love to talk about that.
Like, that's my definition of success. People listen to the episodes that I did, and that enables them to have a better conversation with that person, even if it's just email or, you know, direct messaging or whatever. That may be a weird definition of success, but it turns out to be hard to do that. But it only means I have to have a certain kind of conversation. It doesn't mean that I have to advertise or, you know, kill myself in editing, I hope.
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MARY: Yeah.
CRAIG: That nobody listens.
MARY: That's always the podcaster problem.
CRAIG: Yeah.
MARY: Nobody's listening.
CRAIG: Well, there's only one problem and lots of problems.
MARY: So what are some other problems that you have with podcasting?
CRAIG: Uh, I spend too much time on it. Spend too much time on it. It's like I have an embarrassment of riches. So I understand. I'm not claiming this is weird, but I understand why people say they're nervous about reaching out to guests. I do not have that problem. I'm a computer nerd. I have something like 600 guests. I'm not exaggerating in queues. And I wrote software that mails me weekday mornings that suggests, you know, you mailed this person three weeks ago and they never got back to you, so you probably should message them again. Like, I wrote software to keep track of all that, so that I can just turn the crank. I do the fun part, which is, new email, Hey, Bob, would you like to be on the show? Or like that kind of thing?
People mention a guest to me and I put it in a certain little config file, and I don't forget, two years later, it comes up. And then when I look at the notes, I know who recommended them. And maybe I, maybe they said, I'd really like to hear them talk about X. Like, I figured out a way to capture that stuff. You can do it with pieces of paper or excel spreadsheet, whatever you like.
I think a lot of the struggle with guest outreach is in it's just an infinite number of threads. Like, it's complex, and it's always going to be complex. Don't put your friends into customer relationship management software. That doesn't make it better. So I just figured out, well, what would this have to be for me to enjoy doing this?
So I have, the other problem is, if I turn that crank, if I start messaging people, I can do like five touches in a day in like ten minutes, because I just send an email, send a thing, go to whatever platform they're on. You do that for a few days, then people start showing up in your calendar. And like, that's the other side is make sure people can schedule themselves in using Calendly or something.
If I'm not careful, all of a sudden it takes about two to three weeks. Three weeks out, all of a sudden it's like Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, I have all these podcast recordings scheduled. And even if I say one show per day, I can still wind up with two or three on one day because I have multiple shows. > That's my problem. I removed all of the sticky points, and I really wasn't paying attention to that means it's all going to go really fast. So I have to like, woah, slow down and try to keep it under control.
MARY: Wow, you definitely have a very unique challenge.
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CRAIG: Nice choice of words that you're going to say, that’s very special.
MARY: Earlier you were talking about, you got a lot of advice. You give advice about podcasting. So what was one advice that you got that did, you know, good. You're like, you know what, this is an advice that's out in the podcasting space, don't follow it.
CRAIG: Oh, well, it's, uh, a similar version of that. Question is, what's something I disagree with that everybody else would be mad at me, and that's that you have to publish on a schedule. That's the piece of advice that I patently, I started on that at one point, I had a show that was all over the map, and I actually had hired someone to work on my team. I said, job one, get me on a schedule, which meant get the guest work and all that stuff. And I got on a schedule and I published every week for like a year and a half. I have completely given up, I don't care about, I don't care about schedules. So I said, like, mary, when was my last episode put out?
MARY: I'd have to look, I don't know.
CRAIG: Right? I mean, even if you went and listened, it's okay if you didn't. I don't think Craig is that interesting. But, even if somebody goes and listens to one of my shows, thing they look at is not the publication date. They go to the chronological list. They want to listen to the most recent one. Maybe they scroll back and listen to the trailer, or maybe they search for a word.
So I think that the advice to get yourself on a schedule. Okay. If it's your first episode, yes. Get on a schedule for five or ten or something, seven. But have it in your mind that you're planning on getting off the schedule, or you're at least planning on slowing way down. Because weekly, if you're. If you're, like, a one man band, and if you're doing things by all by yourself, weekly is insane.
MARY: Oh, yeah.
CRAIG: Even if it's hostile, weekly is like the treadmill. So I, I think that's the advice that it's super useful if someone is literally starting out on the sofa to 5K journey of podcasting. Yes. You need to imagine how do I, because it teaches you to close the loop. If I start here and I got to do all these steps, and I got to be done by next week, because I got to do it all over again, and then you start to think, oh, can I do the guest outreach in parallel? So I was working multiple guests, could I work ahead? So I got one or two in the can I. It teaches you those things. But then once you learn those lessons, then let go of having to publish on a schedule is my advice that I think didn't serve me because I took the course and people said that, and I was at 40, and I was like, yeah, I already want to get off this.
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MARY: Get off this, because it is a lot of work and a lot of pressure on yourself to make sure it goes out at a certain day and time.
CRAIG: Yeah. And, like, your die hard listeners, I've had people talk about. We talk about feedback and hearing from your fans. I've had people come up to me at, like. Like, I bump into them in person, and they talk about the show, and I've had people say to me, I can't keep up. Like, sometimes they drop, like, three or four in one week, and people are like, what are you doing? I can't listen to all this. It's too much content.
MARY: That is a lot!
CRAIG: Well, it is, but from my side, it's not. And I just had. It was a 30, 40 minutes conversation. I had a blast. It was awesome. And then I blasted through the post production, right? Sometimes I'm done, and if I'm really flying, I can be done in 45 minutes. I hit stop. The guest hasn't even, like, finished with their. You know, and I'm like, I'm done. It's crazy.
MARY: So wait, why not then? Wait. Like, okay, if you've got this back, not back log. Like, then why not schedule?
CRAIG: Because then the next week, I did three more, and then the next week I did three. Was like, well, there's another scheduled to, you know, never. And I also. I felt bad sometimes. I don't know, there's something about it. Everybody says, you always love all of your children the most. And every one of them, when I'm done with them, I'm like, that's the best thing I've ever created that has to go out right now.
It's part of my drive to make and do and create. And I feel like when I hit stop, I'm doing a disservice. I'm sitting on something I shouldn't be sitting on. And I have had some weird situations where I had some that I sat on for, like, ten months because I get nervous about that. Like, why isn't this done, well, because I can't get a transcript from the thing. I got stuck on details.
So, I really just love. I don't know, I love the feeling of, wow, I had a great conversation, and now everybody else can hear it with as little time between those two statements as I can get.
MARY: Okay then, I'm checking out the time. Like, I had scheduled a certain amount of time with you, but then it got me thinking, then, do you schedule, like, a certain amount of time, or do you just let this conversation go? Because, like, I think I can talk to you for hours, right? And I literally mean that, you know, people say that on shows, but, you know, there has to be an end.
CRAIG: Oh, I guess this is like a whole nother show. Okay, so I will say, yeah, you got 60 seconds before the time you allotted. However, I do not have a hard stop. So you could, if you want to record a second shows worth of material, knock yourself out.
Here's what I will say. People often ask if they're. If they're good podcasters, it occurs to them to ask, how do I have a good ending to my conversation? How do I have a good ending to my show, if I have a host and guest situation, and I always say, well, the first thing you can do is cross off anything that you know that won't work.
So, if you want to have a good ending, do not stop when the show sucks. > Right? So the friction and this is good. You always want to feel this as a host when you're on your show. This is great. This is where we should stop when you feel that tension of, this is awesome because people are going to slap their headphones off and go, that was awesome. And they're going to be like, they're going to go talk to somebody about the show or they're going to share it or whatever.
I mean, maybe don't stop right in the middle of an idea. But that part where we all want to go, wow, that was great. Now what do I ask? Oh, wait, there's more, Mary, let's talk about that. Don't do that. Just go, that was awesome. Thanks so much, Mary. It was a pleasure talking to you today. And hit stop. Hit stop when you're going is great, and you'll be good. Then there are a couple other little tips. Conversations go in, I call them saccades, not cicadas, the insect. Saccades, is a reference to how you move your eyes when you're reading. I don't know if people talk about cicadas in conversation, but, um, I'm doing it. There's a saccade to conversation. It's follow the bouncing ball, and it's about 20 minutes per hop on a conversation.
MARY: I've heard about that. Yeah, yeah.
CRAIG: And you might need to do people going, what? You might need to do a few hundred conversations to get out your metrics and look at the things. And what happens is, if you just let that bouncing ball go, you can't really stop at 30 if you're in the middle of a bounce and you can't really stop at the 20 minutes because that's the sucky part in the middle where you need to have a follow up question to get us back to the >.
So that’s another thing is to understand, like, as a host on your show, understand some of the dynamics of conversation. Have your, have your conceptual head only if you can manage it. Only half in the show, half out of the show, watching the clock, knowing what you wrote that you wanted to get to, that you haven’t got to yet. So, you know, oh, I have to get this one more thing. The next bounce of the saccade is going to be this. If you can manage to stay out. That’s hard. Then that lets you have some of that. You know, you can have your head. You like old gopher, you know, like you stand up, you look around a little bit. Okay, let's go back into the next 20 minutes. So that's the, those are the things that I think about when I'm trying to figure out where to stop.
Really. Just don't stretch. You get to the end and it's awesome, and somebody says something profound, just say, that was awesome.
MARY: That was awesome, Craig.
CRAIG: But I did it on purpose.
MARY: I know.
CRAIG: But, like, it's tough to do that when you're ahead. When you're really as a host, if you're having an awesome conversation, you get completely lost. That's good tape.
MARY: So, yeah, that is. But I always end my show with the same question, and I'm going to let you go. So my last question for you is, what are you excited about podcasting right now?
CRAIG: I totally should have prepared for that because I heard that what am I excited about podcasting? Well, in case people couldn't tell, I'm not excited about anything. I'm really excited about more people are starting to want to talk to me about conversation, and that's great because that means that I'm either, well I'm going to say I'm not doing something offensive. At least it means that things aren't going badly pessimistic.
So I'm really excited about having the chance. It's been happening more often to have conversations like this, where the whole thing is very meta about conversation. So that's really kind of makes me want to start another show. > I'm going to do more of this, but I'm not going there. So that's what I'm going to say. I'm really excited about and getting back, I was mentioning before I was sick, so I'm, like, on a pause at the moment. So I'm excited to get back to having more conversations, but it's really. I feel like I'm getting more interest in talking about talking.
MARY: Yeah, I think that's what we need, because it's that human connection that we're all craving, you know?
CRAIG: Oh, yeah.
MARY: So thank you so much for this human connection with me and for the conversation.
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CRAIG: My distinct pleasure. Thanks for inviting me.
MARY: Thanks so much, Craig. I love the enthusiasm in his voice and for the work that he does. And, you know, during the conversation, he mentioned saccades and following the bouncing ball. I love that he brought up how conversations cycle through around 20 minutes, and we talked about this before, actually, in a previous episode with Steph Fuccio in number 51, we talked about Honing Your Podcast Voice Through Second Language Learning, and Steph had done similar research as well. She mentioned that same phenomenon around 20 minutes for a conversation. So if you want to revisit that episode number 51, the link is in the show notes.
So after listening to this conversation, what advice would you take from Craig's podcasting journey for your own show? Now, like I said on the show in the beginning, his podcast is a passion project and his success is not going to be the same as your success. So we're not saying you need to follow what he is doing. Like the way how he doesn't schedule. Scheduling is important to some people because it provides them structure and to make sure they do things so that they go out. Craig's really great at finding out what works for him, so I hope this episode makes you think about what could potentially really work for you. It's his idea of making things simpler. That's what he found works for him. But what does that mean for you?
Send me a voice note with your feedback at VisibleVoicePodcast.com. you'll find the purple button that says send voicemail. From there, click on that, send me your feedback, and let me know what would be simpler for your podcasting workflow. Or as always, you can email me as well [email protected].
On the next episode we're talking voice tips. How do we embrace our voice as a tool? We think of podcasting as an easy thing to do where you can plug in your microphone and just start talking, but it's not as easy as that. We'll explore more of your voice next time.
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MARY: Thank you so much for listening to the podcaster's guide to a Visible Voice. If you enjoyed this episode, I'd love it if you share it with a podcasting friend. And to reveal more voicing and podcasting tips, click on over to VisibleVoicePodcast.com. Until next time.
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How do you create clear and open communication with your podcast guest? Every podcast—and every episode, for that matter—has a lot of moving parts. As podcast hosts, we know that in order to stay organized, we need systems in place. But those systems should extend to more than your recording and editing tools, and how you publish your episode. You need systems in place for your guest interactions, too.
An unfortunate experience shared by a fellow podcast host prompts Mary to explore podcast etiquette and guest/host interactions. She outlines how to approach this important relationship before, during, and after the interview to make sure you’re setting the clearest possible expectations.
Consider how you could fine-tune your own podcast guest etiquette:
Links worth mentioning from the episode:
Connect with Mary!
Show Credits:
Transcript with Audio Description:
[MUSIC IN - GHOSTHOOD FEATURING SARA AZRIEL “LET’S GO” BEGINS]
MARY: Having a podcast means you've got to have your systems in place. What do you do before you record an episode? How do you manage the actual recording? Then finally, what do you do after you record that episode and have that file? What's next?
There are so many things and variables involved when creating each episode that this also extends to being on a guest on podcasts as well. What are your routines to get on a show? And then when you're on that show, what are you doing? And then after the show, then what do you do with your guest appearance? There are a lot of similarities here when it comes to having your own show or being a guest on one. So when you do have your own show, how do you treat your show and your potential guests? That all matters.
Today, let's get into some podcast etiquette. What happens with your guests before, during, and after the interview? How you respond will set the success for your show and your guests.
This is episode number 83 of the Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice.
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Hey, welcome back to the show. Thanks for joining me today. It's my first episode back from my little summer break.
[INTRO MUSIC ENDS]
And if you had a summer break as well, I hope you got to do at least one thing on your list that made you happy, because we all have, like, a list of things to do, right? Like, you're away from work and you got all these other things to do on the to do list. For me, it was honing in on my family value of adventure. So we hopped on a ferry and visited family on the mainland in Vancouver, stayed for a little staycation and did some camping and just got to explore our beautiful part of the world with our friends and family and meeting some clients, too, who came for their summer vacation. So it's been a really joyful, adventurous, and relaxing summer for me. And so I hope you had the same of, ticking off a couple things on your list for you as well.
And then, of course, now that I'm doing the back to school thing with my daughter, it’s time to also do the back to podcasting thing with you. And just before I went on my little break there, I was chatting with my previous guest, Christian Klepp. He was episode number 66. We were talking about the continuous improvement as a podcaster. So we're hooked up on LinkedIn, and he was asking me about my opinion, and he wanted to run something past me. It's one of those, quote, unquote, if you were in my shoes or my show, what would you do?
[MUSIC IN]
So let's first just lay out the situation. Okay? He said that this guy reached out and asked him to be a guest on his podcast, which was really nice because it is focused on B2B marketing, which is what he does, business to business marketing. So Christian reciprocated by interviewing this guy on his podcast as well.
So here's the thing he says. One, he never told me when my interview was going live. He just published it and shared the link.
Two, I was completely transparent with him and told him when I'd publish his interview.
Three, I sent him an email with the links, no reply.
Four, I added him on LinkedIn and tagged him when I published the episode, no reply. And he didn't share it. He even removed me as a connection.
Five, I introduced two guests to him based on his request, no reply.
A few weeks ago, he adds me back as a connection and asks me to refer leads to him. I said, nobody comes to mind, but I'll keep my eyes open.
Today he sent me another email to follow up and ask if I have any leads for him. So back to that main question. If you were me, how would you respond?
[MUSIC ENDS]
I had a lot of feelings percolating. It just like, escalated, right? All through those numbers. We got five points there. Okay. My response was this, like that initial, oh my god, that's the worst. But two parts of this really come to mind. Initially, I was all, this guy is all, take, take, take. If he ever disconnects from you, I would disconnect from him as well and remove those connections and never reconnect again. Cut it, cut it all off, cold turkey. [LAUGHTER]
But then the more logical side of my brain was thinking of what were the parameters around being a guest? Did he mention beforehand if he was going to tell you when it would go live? I know not everybody does. No one's as prepared to know ahead of time. But did he mention that or what did he say he was going to do to prep you for this episode being published?
So as I kept saying to Christian, my initial response would be no response. I'm too busy to deal with this type of relationship that is clearly not mutually beneficial. Emails get lost, buried, and forgotten. So, no response. I mean, he had no response. I'm gonna have no response. It's my quick, petty little response to that.
However, Christian and I had a good back and forth about this because I think it's a lot to do with those expectations. Christian was very, as he said in point number two, completely transparent with him and told him when I'd publish his interview. But he was getting no replies on those other points that he was making. Right? There was, 3, sent him an email with links, no reply. Added him on LinkedIn and tagged him, no reply. Introduced two guests to him, no reply. And I think at that point, with all the no replies, those are the red flags they are signalling to me, this is not a reciprocal relationship.
And then the more and more we chatted, he came to his own conclusion on what he wanted to do. But I realized this really is about the care. You, as a host, care a lot about your show. So, like Christian, you are doing all, you know, all the things that you would like to do and show that you care about this person as your guest. And when the two expectations don't line up, because it doesn't seem like that guest had the same care, there will be the feelings.
So how do we make sure this doesn't happen again? How do we make sure that for you as a podcaster, for your show, that you've got a framework in place so that you are laying down all your expectations? And as I always say, you are the host of your show. You're driving that bus. So are you going to be driving this bus left and right, through the lanes, over the curves, past the yellow line, or are you following a direct route? And what is that route? You can share it with everybody. Let them know where you're going.
[MUSIC IN]
So let's lay down some of these tracks for this framework as a host. When contacting your guests, give them some of that framework right off the bat, they haven't even said yes to your show yet, but when you give them this framework, they're going to think, whoa, you're really professional. You know exactly what you want. You sound like you know what you're doing. I want to be on your show. That's also one of the first things that they'll see. And they haven't even talked or met with you yet, right? Sometimes this can just be a cold email to someone or a message. What do you expect from them at this point in time? What should they expect from you? You laid this all out now, so there's no disappointment. We'll know exactly what each person gets.
So, for me and this show, I let them know what days I have available for publishing or spots I'm hoping to fill. This way, they could start thinking about, oh, um, at that time of year, I might want to talk about this or that, and they can already start thinking about certain topics that they want to talk about. Then I let them know that they have to fill out my form first. After filling out the form and giving me all the information I need, that will then automatically send them to my calendar to pick a time to record the episode. All of that is in my initial email to them.
So it makes for an easy yes. You know, this might be an initial email to them, but you've already done your homework. Or you may have already chatted with them a little bit about, oh, yeah, I'd like to have you on my show. But this initial email is the how to. They want that blueprint. And if you want more details on this process, I talk about exactly this on episode 62. So go through the back catalog number 62 almost 20 episodes ago, How To Land Someone From Your Dream Guest List.
[MUSIC ENDS]
Okay, so that's all pre-interview stuff. Now we're going to talk about during the interview. Like, you've got the person on the line, you may or may not have hit record yet, but you're going to set some expectations here, too. Remind them of when you plan on publishing this. You might not have an exact date, but you could always say, oh, this will be released sometime in November. So that way you could also be in the moment. If you know that you'll be publishing this months later than you recorded it, then you don't mention timely things, such as, I had a client who recorded something in the new year, and so she was talking about New Year's resolutions and all the stuff, yet it was being published in the summer when it is hot out. They're thinking about vacations. Maybe they're on vacation, and all of those things.
So you might want to talk about something that's more important to the publishing date. And your guest might also want to talk about something that's more relevant. Such as, maybe if you're publishing in the new year, they can then talk about all the new year's resolutions. Or you're publishing in the summer, and they want to talk about some fall retreats that they're hosting. This would give them permission to talk about those things.
And since we're on the topic of permission, this also gives them the permission to make mistakes, because we all do. Whether that is going to be something we're saying and we stumble and fumble on, or that our tech isn't working and everyone is feeling a little awkward, like, I'm so sorry this is happening. This normally doesn't happen or what have you. But that permission allows everyone, you and your guest, to be more human. And when you're more human, you care. And when you care. That interview is going to sound so much better.
[MUSIC IN]
Okay, after the interview. Now, this is actually the important part and what Christian was actually alluding to in his question to me. And I wonder, now that I'm putting this episode together, was some of these steps implemented either on Christian's show, which it sounded like he did because he said, I sent him the link and da da da da da. But also on the other show that Christian was a guest on. So when you are a guest on another show, what is their framework like? And maybe if you're getting some red flags, then you don't want to be a guest on that show.
But, okay, let's go back to after the interview. What do you do when the episode is published? What are those expectations? And how, if you want to, how do you share that message? So I have a client. She shares this message with an email to the guest the day before. This email has all the details about the episode and all the shareable audiograms all linked or attached to the email as part of the promotional campaign. She also makes a suggestion that you don't have to, but you would be really honoured to if you did share the episode and also provided, uh, the graphics so the episode artwork and the links to the episode so that the guests can share it.
But also, what she's doing is making a reminder for this guest. It's doing two things, reminding them that their episode, that they probably recorded months ago, is being published tomorrow. It's giving them a heads up. The second thing is that it's reminding them what they talked about. When guests come on shows, they usually have more than one topic that they're talking about. And this email is a great reminder.
And for you as the host, it's easy to remind them what you talked about because you're just basically copying pasting parts of the show notes here. Usually I'll have bullet points of the major points of the episode, and that's what I will paste into the email. And I guess another thing of this reminder is that you're gonna let them know that you're gonna start tagging them on their social media accounts tomorrow.
So my client will give them this expectation, hey, this is what's coming up. And this gives your guest an expectation that it will happen tomorrow. They can be prepared for that. They can be excited for it and relive the conversation through your email and then be excited to share it. And this, of course, might sound like a lot of work as you, as a host, you're like, I have to send out this email with how many things? But it's all a format and templated. It's essentially the same email that goes out to each and every guest. You just need to update the relevant details for each guest and ta da, done.
But it doesn't sound like from Christian's original question, the host did not do that for him when he was a guest on that show. And that is where some of the expectations that he thought was supposed to happen wasn't happening.
[MUSIC ENDS]
So yes, all podcasters are going to podcast their own way. I mean, this industry really still is the wild, wild west, although we'd like to think there's similar things. And sometimes people go their own way, and that's not necessarily a good or bad thing. In this circumstance, though, it's getting to know what your red flags are. Your value of integrity for your podcast, and the care you are receiving from that person to determine if their etiquette is what you want to follow.
So thanks for Christian for asking that question to me over on LinkedIn and allowing me to share it on this episode. And if you have a podcasting question that you want to share, feel free. Hit me up on LinkedIn like Christian did. And that's where I usually hang out. Or I would love it if you left a voicemail on my website, visiblevoicepodcast.com.
And hey, when you leave that feedback, let me know. How would you respond to Christian's scenario and what's your podcast etiquette that you follow? And if you need some support on some of those templates I'm talking about, I'd love to have a chat with you. We can set you up with your own system so that you can do the copy and pasting and send this out really easily so you can create your own template and your own workflow that aligns with your values and sort of some of this podcast, unofficial podcast etiquette that is in the industry about guesting on a show.
[MUSIC IN]
And diving into the next episode. We're going to talk about the art of conversation and what intentional conversation means for your podcasting journey. We chat with a podcaster who's defying certain rules about editing and how his experience with multiple shows that he's created can support you on assessing your needs for your own show. We'll chat with Chris Constantine next time. We'll see you then.
[MUSIC ENDS]
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MARY: Thank you so much for listening to the podcaster's guide to a Visible Voice. If you enjoyed this episode, I'd love it if you share it with a podcasting friend. And to reveal more voicing and podcasting tips, click on over to VisibleVoicePodcast.com. Until next time.
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[MUSIC ENDS]
Part of podcasting is to review and audit your show. How are your listeners growing alongside you? So a little reminder that I need your help! My show also needs an audit and so I'm looking for your feedback. Your comments will guide me to support you with your show! A ripple effect!!
And as a thank you for taking your time to share your thoughts, although the survey is anonymous, if you enter your details for this giveaway, this will provide one entry for you to win a deck of my Voice Connection Cards. This deck of 39 cards will give you a boost of compassion before you hit that record button! Plus, a 30-minute strategy session with me to talk voice or podcasting!
Contest and survey closes on Sept 13th at 5pm pacific time.
You don’t have to enter the contest, that’s optional, but I would love love love for you to at least fill in the survey, so I can help you with your podcast through this podcast!
**TAKE THE 2024 LISTENER SURVEY! https://forms.gle/4ZVTANgCuiMNteBY6
Connect with Mary!
Show Credits:
How do you make sure your show evolves along with your listener? As an independent podcast creator, chances are you wear a lot of hats. You’re the host, of course, as well as the producer, the audio editor, the marketer, the designer… When you’re so focused on doing all the things for your show, it can be easy to forget that your podcast isn’t about you at all. It’s about your listener.
Being a podcaster means you’re responsible not just for putting out a show you think your ideal listener will connect with, but for diving deep into your current listener and making sure that your episodes evolve alongside them. In the last episode before the summer break, Mary takes you through the many steps she follows when she conducts a podcast audit, so that your show can evolve to serve your audience better.
Take these pro tips on a test drive to guide the evolution of your podcast:
Links worth mentioning from the episode:
Connect with Mary!
Show Credits:
Transcript:
[MUSIC IN - GHOSTHOOD FEATURING SARA AZRIEL “LET’S GO” BEGINS]
MARY: In podcasting, creating your show can feel so much about that overwhelm because of what the host does. Many shows are a one person show. So not only are you the host, but also the audio editor, the writer, the producer, showrunner, marketer, executive assistant, and the list really does just go on and on. But remember, your podcast is actually about your listener, not you.
Without your listeners, your podcast is basically a fancy place to leave yourself some voice notes. If that's what you're looking for, great. I mean, hit stop on this episode and move on. But if you want to grow alongside your podcast, you need to learn more about your listeners so that you can evolve along with them. So today we're getting into auditing your own podcast so that you can grow and learn from it.
This is episode 82 of The Podcasters Guide to a Visible Voice.
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Thanks for joining me today on this episode. And, yeah, it's about auditing your podcast.
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And part of that process is learning about your listeners. So, before we get started into the meat of the episode, I want to learn from you. I'd love to hear what your feedback is. And really, that is the main theme of the episode. So, knowing your show and auditing your podcast comes down to knowing your listeners.
I'm doing a listener survey to learn more about you. This way, I can create more episodes with you in mind. What do you want to hear more of? What can I improve on? What do you actually not like to hear? You know, all the good stuff, all the feedback. And as a thank you for taking your time to share your thoughts. The survey is anonymous, but if you provide me your contact information, you'll be submitted to one entry to win a deck of my Voice Connection Cards. They'll give you a boost of compassion before you hit that record button. It's kind of like a little affirmation card deck for you.
Plus, I'll also throw in a 30-minute strategy session to talk to me about voice or podcasting and everything in between. So that's for you to choose. Kind of like a choose your own adventure session. You bring your questions and fire them at me, and I'll help support you on your voice and podcasting journey. So head on over to visiblevoicepodcast.com/offers, and on that page will be a link to the survey.
So, like I said, as part of the theme of this episode, you can also go through my listener survey. And yeah, use it for yourself, too. Why not? Go through the survey, fill it all out. But then you can use those questions as a template for your own listener survey, if you want. It's okay. You can steal my ideas, because point number one here, this whole episode, is to know your audience, your ideal listener. So let's get into that.
[MUSIC IN] Your ideal listener can change over time as your podcast evolves. I have a client who does a yearly survey, and I was like, that is amazing. Go you. Of course, she's got a team behind her, too, so she has that support. So for myself, as essentially one person show creating my podcast, I thought to put one out for years. And so I finally made the time to do that. And I truly believe it will help you understand your listeners and to help you grow your show.
Because I may have an idea of who my ideal listener is. That's a foundation that I take all of my clients on, is to create that ideal listener avatar, essentially. But it doesn't exactly mean that is who my current listener is. It's always good to check in and see how your listeners are evolving along with your show. You know, do you want to grow alongside them, or are you sticking with your ideal listener and gaining new listeners all the time to align with that creation? At some point, it'll be good for you to gather listener insights so that you can, A, validate what you're doing and give yourself a good pat on the back, and B, know what you can tweak so that you can serve those listeners and not abandon them. Through a survey you can also generate ideas for episodes because it's what they want, it's the challenges that they're working through. So how can you create an episode that is for your current listener in mind? Because remember, your show is not about you. It is about your listeners. What do they want and how do you want them to feel?
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So point 2 here is, knowing your goal and what success looks like to you as well. There is one question I ask everyone, whether I work with them as a client or they are a guest on my show. So, if you've been listening to my show for a while and you've been following along, this is a question that comes up quite a bit.
What does success look like to you? Because knowing what you want out of your podcast will drive what you do with your podcast. Is your goal just to have a hobby, passion-based project podcast? Or is it used as a platform for creating a marketing space for your business or having listeners be aware of your brand?
A podcast is a great way to do that. It's an extension of who you are and your brand. Knowing these things will drive your show with part of that foundational work, you'll know exactly what little tweaks you want to make to be one step closer to that success that you're hoping for.
Now, success can also evolve over time. We are human, so we grow, and so will your podcast. What success looks like for you today may not be what you started out with or what will be success for you in the future. And, yeah, we can't predict the future, but we can make a plan for it. So let's do that.
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Some powerful questions that I posed for one of my clients recently was around her solo episodes. Now, not just for this client, but a few of my clients actually say solos are really a big, heavy lift for a weekly show. Or you know what? Even a bi-weekly show, myself included sometimes. It seems easier to come up with the guests, make the invite, then ask those questions than to come up with the content yourself. Organize your thoughts and ideas, create your episode, record the whole thing. Right? Like, there's so, so much more going on to create that solo episode. And sometimes, because of that heavy lift, one would then lead to think, let's not do these anymore, and create more flow in the recording and publishing process. We can get more out if I don't have the stumbling block of my solo episodes. But my question is, what if you can create flow with your solos so that they are working for you and nothing against you? Because sometimes week after week of recording and publishing can get you out of the mindset of your podcast. And again, back to that, what does that success look like for you?
Think about, why did you start the podcast in the beginning? What were some of those fundamental things that drew you to wanting to create solo episodes.
For this particular client, I think they lost sight about the reason behind the solos and how they wanted to structure them. Not only the structure of the episode itself, but also the structure of how they're used in the entire ecosystem of the show. She really wants to be a thought leader in her space, so you can't be a thought leader without imparting your opinion. And your opinion is really crucial in those solo episodes because it's just you in a conversational piece. The guest is doing all the talking. They're the expert. So you're not really showcasing your thought leadership when it's a fully interview style podcast.
So when reviewing reasons for why we created this structure or format with the solo episodes, there will be a clear direction on what that episode is supposed to do for you and for your listeners.
What are you aligning with your offer for this solo episode? What is the theme that you are working on with this particular episode, and does it align with the surrounding episodes before and after it? Are there ties to each episode for repetition? Because audio retention can only work with that repetition.
Things have to be repeated over and over again. Repetition is key, and if you feel like you're talking too much about it, you're not.
This is something that was drilled into me in radio as well. Because in radio, we may be talking about something constantly because people are coming in and out listening to the radio, and it is a similar thing in podcasting. You may feel like you're talking about it too much because maybe you're recording all your episodes back to back or within a very short time frame from one episode to the next. But know that your listeners will get these touch points over the course of several weeks, or a month, or longer, depending on how often you publish episodes.
So even if they are a raving fan and they are listening to you every single week, and you publish an episode every single week, that's only once or twice in an episode that you're going to mention this, which is only once or twice in a week that they are going to hear this messaging. So, repetition means you're actually not talking about it too much.
So when you go back to these foundational questions, you can then realize, okay, like for this particular client, are solo episodes really working out? And if you want to continue with them, how are we going to integrate it into the workflow of what you're doing with the entire podcasting ecosystem?
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Now that we have the foundations laid out, let's also get into the details of a podcast audit. These are more questions that I would always go through when auditing a podcast.
First thing I'll look for is your title. Does your title still reflect your theme and mission for your show? Most of the time people are going to say yes, but if not, do you need to do a whole rebrand, including your artwork, your music, your show description? All of it? But yes, most of the time the title is still great and includes your main keywords of your theme. Then yay. Okay, let's move on.
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Next is your artwork, or also known as your cover art. This is what everyone sees when they are listening to your podcast before they click play. It's almost like judging a book by its cover for new listeners, it's your cover art, your book cover, but it is also for existing listeners, for your fans.
Is it recognizable? If I scanned my podcast listening app with all the podcasts I follow, does your artwork stand out? At the very least, does it stand out in your category of choice? And at the very, very least, does it look good on a small scale?
That's my main question. Because no matter if you're a new listener or a raving fan coming back all the time, the title of your podcast needs to stand out. If you have a photo of you in your podcast artwork, great, that's totally fine. But not everybody is going to recognize your face. So it all comes down to the title, especially when it comes to word of mouth, when people are like, oh, I listened to this podcast. It's called, you know, XYZ. Can you read that title at a small scale? When it's tiny, tiny, tiny on your phone or device?
And not just the text font, but is there enough colour contrast that I can actually read the printhead even when it's big enough? Nothing's worse than having like, a lemon yellow as your brand color. But white is the background colour or secondary colour. You won't be able to read anything with yellow on a white background. There's just not enough contrast.
So this isn't only a brand thing, but it is also an accessibility feature too. So I always look at that and make sure that you're doing everyone a favour to make sure that people can read the title of your artwork and that it becomes recognizable.
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For the next show level review, I go with show description right off the bat I want to know who this show is for. Remember, a podcast really works when it's niched down. So you're not talking to everyone on the planet that can listen to a podcast. Hey everyone, how are you doing today? But a very specific person.
When someone is new coming to your show and they scan through your show description, this is where they want to see themselves in that description. Your ideal listener is gonna come into play here. Who is your ideal listener? Let them know right here in the show description that this show is for them.
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Visibility on platforms would be my next look on this audit. So not just where you yourself, as the podcast hosts, likes listening to shows, but what about all the other apps? What does your show look like on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, Amazon?
You know, I'm an Android user. I used to use Google Podcasts, but that's gone. Now I like to use Pocket Casts. That's my app of choice. Wherever your podcast listener can access your podcast, you gotta check there too. Such as, your website. That's another place that's huge on podcasts listening.
If you have multiple devices. Also check there. Like I said, I have an Android, but luckily I also have a used iPad in the house that my kiddo plays on and reads from and learns on and stuff. So I use that and check that as well.
So, for example, if you've ever made tweaks to your podcast title, artwork, show description, things like that, if you've made changes in the past, do all the places still look the same? Is your branding the same on all the different platforms? And if you're not on all the places, make sure your show gets listed on all the places. Yes, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, Amazon, those are the top, but there's the other places too. Now, while you are on these platforms, don't just look on the show level. So all the things I've been talking about so far, the artwork, the description, the title of your show, we're going to look at the episode level as well.
When you click on an episode, you'll get to see your show notes. You get to see how everything is displayed. Does the podcast listening app use episode specific graphics? Do you use episode specific graphics as well? Also, most platforms these days do use hyperlinks in the show notes, but not all do. So are your links clickable? Like when you say the link is in the show notes, is it there available for them to go click, or is there another layer of friction for them to get to that episode link?
Also, does the platform have truncated text? So, this means that they will only show a certain amount of letters or characters in the show notes or episode description.
Sometimes some apps will actually truncate based on where you put in a paragraph. So if you have one line on its own as a paragraph, but they give you a lot more text to show you're missing out on that little bit of real estate. So don't use just one line as a paragraph on its own, but give it a good chunk of text so it doesn't get truncated just on that one line. And still on the show level now, you're going to look at the overall titles of each episode. Is there consistency on how you're naming them?
Meaning are you including or not including episode numbers? Do guest names come at the beginning or the end of titles? Are you even including guest names? Do your titles even have a good description of what your potential listener will be hearing? Episode titles are great for SEO points. This is a field where search engine optimization is crucial.
So this is another piece where more listeners will judge a book by its cover, meaning they will judge the episode based on the title, if I'm looking at a new show, I may listen to the latest episode, sure, but I will also scroll the episodes and see if any other titles jump out at me in terms of interest and then wanting to hit play on that one.
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So, so far, woo, we've covered a lot. That's a big list, and I haven't even gotten to any of the actual listening parts of the podcast audit. So when you're finally listening to review your show, what is that experience like? Is the episode intro too long? If you listen to episodes back, to back, to back, to back, what's annoying to you that stands out? Or if you're listening while multitasking, do you have to turn up the volume to max on your device so you can hear your own voice? Is your voice rich and clear and full bodied?
And I'm not talking about like, understanding what you're saying in terms of accents or the way you're speaking, but the actual sound quality of it all. Do I have to strain to hear the sound of your voice? Is there too much background noise? It's the same with the guests.
So it's not just your voice, but any of the voices that come through. How is that audio quality? Does it just sound like another Zoom call? Do they drop in and out? And so it's just really hard and fatiguing to listen to the conversation. These are all questions I would ask for the sound quality of the show.
But at the same time, you can also listen for format. Meaning do you like how the intro works? Would you rather not have a show level intro and just have an episode specific intro? Do you want to have shorter episode specific intros? Or maybe you want it longer, or do you even have an outro? How do you end your show? Do you want one of those things? What about ads and sponsors? If you do have those, where do they come in? Do they have a nice transition where they're placed to show that there is a break in the show, is this seamless sounding, or would you prefer it to be more seamless?
These are all questions that I have roaming in my head constantly when I am doing an audit. But depending on what your goals for your podcast is, the listening part of the audit will be different. And I can totally get more nuanced than this.
But if you're at this point of the episode where you're thinking, whoa, that is a lot of questions that you're asking right now. I'm firing them off and you're thinking, I don't know, you tell me. Yes, I would love to tell you actually, or at least make a few suggestions and audit your show for you. This is also such a great time of year to audit podcasts because we are halfway through the year. As I'm recording this, it's early July. So how does your podcast align with your idea of what success looks like?
This is the time of year to make those reviews and then implement them so that you can end the year strong, or depending on your capacity, start the next year strong with that renewed plan for your show. And I know capacity always plays a big part in planning for your podcast. So I'm here with you to take a look at your podcast with a very discerning eye, meaning I'm from an outside perspective, listening to your show, or looking at it from a listener's perspective.
Sometimes podcasters are in what I like to call like a fishbowl. They're swimming and swimming around in circles, publishing episode after episode. But is this the best or even simplest way to go about achieving success for your show?
Do you maybe want to swim slower, or swim faster, or swim in a totally different direction? Or you know what? Better yet, get a bigger aquarium for more fish? I can go on and on with this analogy.
But yes, let's take a look at your podcast together. We can review what success looks like to you with a complimentary strategy session. Here we'll talk through what's important to you, what your goals are for this audit, and of course, the success part. Right?
I've been talking about that this whole episode. I'll do a quick mini overview in five minutes or less of what I see on your podcast. Basically, a lot of these questions that I posed during this episode I'll do in the complimentary strategy session. And then if after that you feel like you need more, we can schedule a full audit for your podcast.
So, the complimentary strategy session, the link will be in the show notes, and we can plan for your success of your podcast.
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But before I let you go, just a reminder to check the show notes not only for that link for the complimentary strategy session for your podcast audit, but also the link for the listener survey. So not only can I improve my show with your feedback, but that means you'll improve yours as well. From listening to my podcast. It's a whole ripple effect.
So as a thank you for taking your time to share your thoughts, if you enter your details again, the survey is anonymous, but if you enter your contact details as an option, this will provide one entry to win a deck of my voice connection cards to give you a boost of compassion before you hit that record button to record your show.
Plus, I'll include a complimentary 30 minutes strategy session anyway. And we can talk voice, podcasting, all the good stuff you need to grow your show. Again, the listener survey link is in the show notes, or you can go to visiblevoicepodcast.com offers and the survey link will be there for you as well.
So have a lovely July and August. That's a summer break for me. I do my yearly summer hiatus of the podcast, or if you're on the other side of the world listening from the other side from where I live, have a very cozy, cozy winter. This will be the last episode until I'm back in September.
In the meantime, don't forget, fill in the survey or I'm always around over email if you have any burning questions that you need answered over this time time, [email protected] is where you can reach me.
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MARY: Thank you so much for listening to the podcaster's guide to a Visible Voice. If you enjoyed this episode, I'd love it if you share it with a podcasting friend. And to reveal more voicing and podcasting tips, click on over to VisibleVoicePodcast.com. Until next time.
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How can activating your beginner’s mind help you facilitate an authentic podcast experience? For many podcast hosts, the draw of creating a show is two-fold: we are eager to engage with and educate our listeners on topics we’re passionate about, and we look forward to the personal learning and professional development our interviews and solo episodes can foster.
Beth Cougler Blom is a facilitator, learning designer, and author crafting impactful learning experiences for organizations making a difference in the world. She also funnels her passion for transformational learning into her own podcast, Facilitating on Purpose. In this episode, she and Mary discuss the challenges, joys, and vast potential of kicking “Instagram Perfect” to the curb and creating an authentic podcast.
Explore how your podcast facilitates learning for yourself and your community:
Links worth mentioning from the episode:
Engage with Beth:
Connect with Mary!
Show Credits:
How has being a podcaster changed how you listen? There are plenty of ways AI can make podcasters’ lives easier, but there’s one human ability Mary firmly believes AI will never be able to replicate (or at least not for a very long time): true listening. We humans have the incredible potential to distill the emotional impact underlying the words a person speaks. Artificial intelligence bots, on the other hand, can only record the words themselves and “react” with whatever follow-up is programmed into their databanks.
As podcasters, we learn to hear and listen differently than other people. We hone in on the nuances in our guests’ voices, which enables us to strengthen that shared connection in our interviews. We also pick up on background sounds that wiggle in around our recorded words, affecting the quality of our episodes in a big way. So, when you’re podcasting—what are you listening for?
Explore the emotional nuances of the human voice:
The significant difference between listening and hearing
What’s behind the “zoom-quality sound” fatigue we all experience
How deep and supportive listening can make you healthier
Links worth mentioning from the episode:
Episode 77, Why We Need To Highlight Our Humanity In Podcasting with Erin Moon - https://www.organizedsound.ca/why-we-need-to-highlight-our-humanity-in-podcasting-with-erin-moon-episode-77/
Connect with Mary!
Show Credits:
How can we make sure your podcast is accessible to everyone? Everyone in the podcasting world is talking about accessibility these days, as more and more platforms release improved transcription services aimed at making the process easier for creators and meeting growing expectations around equitable access. Of course, AI tools are leading this charge, and simply publishing whatever that tool spits out—misspelled guest names, garbled industry terms, and all—just doesn’t cut it.
Joel McKinnon is a podcaster and an accessibility engineer—the ideal expert to discuss the future of podcasting accessibility. The creator of two podcasts and a rock opera, Joel turns his expertise to exploring the future role of AI in all things podcasting and websites. He has an inspiring take on striking a balance between making the most of robot efficiency and maintaining that essential humanity.
Gaze off into the fantastic future of podcasting and explore:
Links worth mentioning from the episode:
Engage with Joel:
Connect with Mary!
Podcast cover art by Emily Johnston of Artio Design Co. https://www.artiodesignco.com
How can transcripts positively impact your podcast? Podcasts have always had an audio-first following, but as-is, audio isn’t accessible for everyone. In the wake of Apple Podcasts’ announcement to begin including transcripts with their latest update, it seems likely other platforms will begin to follow suit. This raises an important question for podcast creators: is it worth preparing transcripts for each of your episodes?
After two years of exploring transcripts for her and her clients’ productions, Mary dives into their potential to transform both creator and listener experiences. You’ll hear (or read!) about everything from SEO (search engine optimization) and AI to the proven benefits of many other accessibility initiatives. If you’ve been considering taking the leap and creating text alternatives for your episodes, or you want tips on fine-tuning your transcript process, add this episode to your queue.
Get a better grasp on how transcripts can impact your show:
Links worth mentioning from the episode:
Connect with Mary!
Podcast cover art by Emily Johnston of Artio Design Co. https://www.artiodesignco.com
How do you bring your humanity to your podcast? Sharing your voice isn’t always easy. Factor in the painstaking writing of your script or copy, all those edits and revisions, and some nerves about speaking into the mic, and even the most heartfelt story can wind up either flat and unemotional or encased in that “reporter voice” from the dawn of radio.
Unlock some podcasting inspiration through this conversation with Erin Moon, a classically trained actor who has narrated more than 450 audiobooks. To deliver the sincere and evocative narration for which she’s known, Erin centers her humanity in every character she adopts, embracing both the muse that first inspired the author and the physical reactions—the literal human responses—the writing evokes. Because connecting to the text means connecting to the listener and, as Erin says, “we don’t exist without each other.”
Align your true self with Erin’s thought-provoking insights:
Links worth mentioning from the episode:
Engage with Erin:
Connect with Mary!
Podcast cover art by Emily Johnston of Artio Design Co. https://www.artiodesignco.com
What’s the connection between audiobooks and podcasts? You already know the right tone and voice is essential for building a connection with your listeners. It just makes sense, then, that you can turn to different kinds of audio media for inspiration when looking to further hone your skills behind the mic. Take, for example, audiobooks.
Especially in the last year or so, the connection between audiobooks and podcasts has expanded beyond the shared audio medium. Platforms like Spotify are putting a lot of their chips on audiobooks, and podcasters need to start considering this angle more closely from a marketing perspective. Luckily, plenty of the takeaways Mary has gleaned over years of working in the biz of spoken audio apply to both podcast and audiobook narration, and in this episode, she’s sharing her tips.
Uncover the secrets to speaking more engagingly no matter which spoken audio platform you use:
Links worth mentioning from the episode:
Connect with Mary!
Podcast cover art by Emily Johnston of Artio Design Co. https://www.artiodesignco.com
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