How are you using or avoiding artificial intelligence in your podcast? AI is a shiny new offering with loads of possibilities, but a lot of people are also understandably threatened by its wide-reaching and ever-growing abilities. On today’s episode, Mary connects with Amanda Cupido, an adjunct professor, TEDx speaker, podcast producer, and author of the book “Let’s Talk Podcasting.”
Amanda has her finger firmly on the pulse of all things new in the world of podcasts, and she shares her deeply researched insights on the pros and cons of welcoming generative AI into our shows—just how wide should we be opening that door?
From concern around the inherent biases of AI outputs to the tool’s potential to build the confidence of new voices in audio, Amanda’s hot takes might just change the way you incorporate artificial intelligence into your podcast.
Learn to navigate generative AI from a 100% human expert:
- How we can maintain the human touch in AI-assisted creations,
- The struggle to stay transparent about our use of AI,
- What to take away and leave behind from popular celebrity podcasts,
- What other big changes are making waves in the podcasting world today.
Links worth mentioning from the episode:
- Suno AI music-making tool - https://www.suno.com
- Boardy AI networking tool - https://www.boardy.ai/
- ChatGPT - https://chatgpt.com/
- DeepSeek AI - https://deepseek.ai/
- Start With Why by Simon Sinek - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4ZoJKF_VuA
- Episode 79, Making Accessibility Possible in Podcasting with Joel McKinnon - https://www.organizedsound.ca/making-accessibility-possible-in-podcasting-with-joel-mckinnon-episode-79/
Engage with Amanda Cupido:
- Find out more about Amanda’s work - https://www.amandacupido.com/
- Connect with Amanda on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/amandacupido/
- Order a copy of “Let’s Talk Podcasting” - https://www.letstalkpodcasting.com/
- Get the kid’s version - “Let’s Talk Podcasting for Kids” - https://www.letstalkpodcastingforkids.com/
- Work with Lead Podcasting - https://www.leadpodcasting.com/
- Listen to Amanda’s TEDx talk, “Why Audio Storytelling is the backbone of humanity” - https://youtu.be/srh0mdmmQoo
Connect with Mary!
- Leave a voice note with your feedback at https://www.speakpipe.com/VisibleVoice or email [email protected]
- Get the full transcript of the episode at http://www.visiblevoicepodcast.com
- Read up on more secrets with the Visible Voice Insights Newsletter https://www.organizedsound.ca/newsletter
- To learn more or work with Mary, check out https://www.organizedsound.ca
- Link up on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/marychan-organizedsound/
- Engage on Instagram @OrganizedSoundProductions https://www.instagram.com/organizedsoundproductions
Show Credits:
- Podcast audio design, engineering, and edited by Mary Chan of Organized Sound Productions
- Show notes written by Shannon Kirk of Right Words Studio
- Post-production support by Kristalee Forre of Forre You VA
- Podcast cover art by Emily Johnston of Artio Design Co.
Transcript with Audio Description:
[MUSIC IN - GHOSTHOOD FEATURING SARA AZRIEL “LET’S GO” BEGINS]
MARY: AI, artificial intelligence. People love it or they're afraid of it. On one hand it's this shiny new object, people flock to it. It's been helping us write better, maybe give us ideas and do that basic level of tasks that sometimes we don't want to do. But then on the other hand, it's the thought of robots taking over the world, making decisions that might be wrong, or even, gasp, replacing actual humans.
So yes, I too all those fears and the shiny new object syndrome more so the fears though. So I haven't really been jumping on the AI bandwagon. And yet when I look at the nitty gritty side of things that I do, a lot of it is AI involved. You know, there's a lot of automations and workflows that are just always happening in the background for me. So why are we so scared? Amanda Cupdio tells us that it's the generative AI that has us all fearful. The generative part, that's the AI that's gotten very, very good lately. So I wanted to know more about it to A, calm my fears, but also my curiosity to it for the whole side of podcasting.
Amanda came into my world through a mutual podcasting friend shout out to Aaron Johnson. Not only is Amanda an award winning podcast producer, TEDx speaker, and an entrepreneur, founder and CEO of Lead Podcasting, Amanda is also the author of the Amazon number one bestseller Let's Talk Podcasting: The Essential Guide To Doing It Right and now a kids' version of that book too. And if all of that wasn't enough to keep her busy, to top it all off, she's helping the next generation of podcasters as an adjunct professor to redefine the radio courses at both Seneca Polytechnic and Toronto Metropolitan University.
To top it all off yet again is also teaching a new generative AI course at Seneca, which is the thing that piqued my interest and why I really wanted to get her thoughts on how AI can be good for podcasting, so that we're not so afraid of what's to come. I also have such a love for her because we both are former radio people and she was the first woman to be a program director at a talk radio station in Toronto. Which really blows my mind because Toronto is the biggest market in Canada and this milestone is actually relatively new in our recent history, so how is that still possible? But kudos to her. Congrats on that one.
Okay, back to the topic at hand. Whether you are using AI or not in your podcast, in your podcast workflow, in the creation of your show, you are really going to enjoy this chat because, like I said, AI is a part of our podcasting world. So we need to be aware of how it's impacting our space and what unfolds for the industry itself and for the next generation of podcasters.
This is episode number 95 with Amanda Cupido on The Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice.
>
Amanda, thank you so much for taking time out of your,
[MUSIC ENDS]
You're so busy, you've got so much going on to talk with little ol’ me here.
AMANDA: Thank you. It's a true pleasure. Happy to be here.
MARY: One of the things that you're so busy with is this new class at Seneca Polytechnic…
AMANDA: Yep.
MARY: …out in your east coast, Ontario, from me, West Coast, BC.
AMANDA: Yes.
MARY: Brand new class, Generative AI for Communicators.
AMANDA: That's it, Yes.
MARY: I was like, whoa, what is this?
AMANDA: Yeah.
MARY: So, you know, I'm, I'm not a big AI fan. I'm still a little afraid of it. But when you think more about it, it's like, you know, back in the day when I remember when I was in high school, teachers were like, don't use your calculator. No calculators in math class.
AMANDA: [LAUGHTER] Yep.
MARY: And now look at us, right? So I feel like AI is similar to that so broadly. Tell us, especially for us who are fearing that AI, what is this class all about and why is it so important right now?
AMANDA: Well, the class is brand new and it's part of also a brand new program. So it's, it's all just spanking new. [LAUGHTER] It's a bachelor's program from Seneca for Communications Management. And they're teaching the students in general in this program about storytelling, content creation, communication strategies for corporate communication, strategies for individuals, brand building, personal thought, leadership development, right? So it's trying to paint this picture of like, what that, that whole, where this fits into the bigger picture of the, of the actual degree they're earning.
And this course comes now in, and this is the first cohort of students coming through this new program. So this is why it's all. I love this stuff. This excites me. I like, you know, building and testing and just experimenting. And so I am using AI in my podcast production company, Lead Podcasting, and I also have a certificate from the University of Oxford. And so they reached out to me with the opportunity to bring this class to life, which was great. And so I'm also just responding to where the students are at. And so from a high level, the class is teaching really practical use cases, as the name says, to use AI for communications and that can be with more formal comms plans for corporate, but also as a freelancer who's maybe trying to get a gig as a copywriter.
And so it really ranges and we'll do different case studies. I brought in guest speakers. We've also been just following the news in general and talking about that. So one interesting thing that I was surprised by, I was getting ready, these are, you know, early 20s, the students in the class are in their early 20s and, I was ready for them to teach me too. I was ready. No, but they were really open to learning. They, a lot of them had not experimented with AI at all.
Some of them just truly had not even touched ChatGPT. Some had said, oh, they've used ChatGPT and that's it. Have not experimented with a single other thing. And I was shocked by that. I was expecting the younger generation to be all over this and, uh, telling me what apps they were using, but which I think, you know, for no matter what your age, just goes to show we're all in this together. I'm trying to figure this out. There's no advantage for anybody. We could all just dive in, even just me. I personally experiment with things and then I bring it into the classroom. So it is really evolving.
But some of the programs we're using, if you're curious and you want to do some experimenting, we've used Suno to create songs and in that use case for, in a comms plan, you know, a custom song for a presentation or an anthem for a campaign. And Suno, you could like put in your own lyrics or have it generate lyrics for you. You pick the genre, the voice and then it like creates a song for you. So that's one app and one in class activity that we just did and shared our songs. And then we're also doing. We used Boardy AI. I don't know if you've heard of this, but this is, uh, an app that is an AI generated voice that will call you and you have a conversation. So first off, it's really interesting just to be chatting with an AI agent…
MARY: Yeah.
AMANDA: …and so this was like day one of my class, I called and we like had the whole class listen into me talking with this AI agent. Cool. A great intro, right? And then I gave them the number so they could all have their own calls if they wanted. And essentially this agent tries to network for you and says, you know, we're a more global community. Work has become more globalized and going to networking events just doesn't cut it anymore. So you have a chat with me and then I look in my network of all the other people I've chatted to, and I see who might be a good fit for you to meet and you get to share what you're looking for.
And for students, it was great because they're all looking to network. They're trying to break into an industry. And so, yeah, that was really awesome to hear some students who on their own time did the call and it like went down a networking path with that agent. So there's a lot of experimenting and case studies like this. But on the other side, we're also getting really granular and looking at privacy policies line by line ethics. What do you think? You know, we're, we're getting into the, to the other side too. So it's, we're trying to have a very balanced approach of excitement and caution, you know so yeah…
MARY: Yeah.
AMANDA: …it's very interesting. Yeah, it's fun.
MARY: I know that the other day I saw, you know, Google Gemini doing that AI agent type thing that you were talking about. It's how you can in real time talk to them and figure out what it is that you, you know, you're googling or whatnot or like if you're cooking something and like, should I be doing this temperature or should I fry or should I whatever. And it would help support you in that. And that's kind of interesting because it means that it's coming to the everyday user, so it's not going to be as scary anymore.
However, I do have a big ethics question which you lightly touched on there. You know, there is a huge bias of AI who don't see outside of that normative, white, patriarchal ecosystem that we live in. You know, AI generates voices that may sound like the person. Like if you get it to learn your voice, it learns your pitch, your frequency, pacing. But, what about for like people who are second language learners or those who are just podcasting as a passion and it's not meant to sound polished and, you know, corporate at all. What about that side of things?
AMANDA: I think there's two parts to this answer. The first one is about the bias. And what I say to that is that is, just a reflection of humanity. AI, we built AI. So unfortunately it's pulling from things that we've also created as humanity and the biases that are showing up are the biases that exist in our world. So I think it feels scary because it's being reflected back to us so blatantly…
MARY: Mhmm.
AMANDA: …but it's all already here. This is our world. So I, and, and the biases are going to change. Like, I think it's going to be interesting as users experiment. The biases will change depending where we are in the world. And the AI agents will be trained and learn biases in local contexts, right? Where if you're in Afghanistan, unfortunately, there are brides that are 11 years old. And so if you ask an AI that's been trained over there to generate the image of a bride, you might get a gal that looks really young…
MARY: Right.
AMANDA: …And that's just because of the images it's sourcing from the users there. So we have to just recognize, you know, our role in all of this. And the, the optimist in me is like, maybe when it's so starkly reflected back to us, maybe actually we'll be challenged to be better as a, as a human race.
MARY: So should it be like we need to use AI more just so it can learn about the diverse population?
AMANDA: Yeah, I, that's how I look at it. I say, I'm going to learn it, I'm going to teach it, I'm going to teach this thing, I'm going to tell it. I don't want a white man being representative of a CEO, when I put it…
MARY: Yes.
AMANDA: …right, a CEO. And so I can prompt that and then it's learning from me. And I think we have this opportunity to, to make it better and change some of the, you know, there's so much data out there that would take so long to replicate and over surpass from a content creation perspective. But if we could, with prompts, start shifting the narrative, it'll learn faster from prompts than from, you know, and you can tell it, don't use database, use my prompts, right? And you can just guide it to being better. So I think there is a, there is a silver lining to this. Not to say it's not, it's not going to be perfect. It's going to take time.
And that kind of answers your second part of your original question, which was, you know, what about the real and raw authentic elements and how do we not make it so, you know, slickly polished when that's not what we want? And that's going to be part of, I mean, that's the human touch that you can add in or tell it to not alter. There's going to be opportunities for hybrid approaches to content creation which we can.
MARY: What do you mean by hybrid?
AMANDA: Like, let's say somebody wants to make a podcast and they're, I don't know, 12 or 13. They're a young teen who doesn't even know really who their group of friends is yet. They're trying to figure themselves out and they don't really have a community of people they could invite onto their podcast. Maybe they could have a podcast with an AI agent that builds their confidence, makes them love their voice, feels more comfortable in conversation and interviewing, and then it's half human, half AI agent, and then eventually they develop into doing a full fledged one with two humans. But, like they're able to start in this hybrid format.
MARY: Oh, I see what you mean. Yeah. It's like this playing in the sandbox. It's not going to be full on, like public consumption. People are going to judge you. It's a very safe space.
AMANDA: It can be. And then you have to be careful and you have to understand what apps you're using and what the privacy policies of those apps are. One of the things I do in my classes, like, we actually pull up the privacy policy and start reading line by line, because we know that nobody reads the fine print.
MARY: Yes. [LAUGHTER]
AMANDA: And so I'm like, let's read it together. And then we actually. So we took the fine print from Deep Seek, which was an AI agent developed out of China, but we put it into ChatGPT to say, what are the privacy concerns that you see in Deep Seek? Right. Like, that was an interesting experiment. So you could use AI against itself.
MARY: Yeah.
AMANDA: Yeah, it was neat. So anyway, I do think that there, it's going to be this, this moment of, of the wild, wild west where we're all just trying to figure it out. And also we have to recognise that there's a social acceptance around it all too. So, if you look in a lot of countries overseas, like in Korea, they have celebrities already, influencers, singers that are completely AI generated and people are following them on Instagram, showing up to their concerts. And there's fandom, there's true fandom around it. We in North America are not there yet. Like, we…
MARY: Not even close.
AMANDA: …not even close. But I think we'll get there. It's just going to take, it's going to be slower and there's going to be some bumps along the way. But so some of this voice stuff, you know, I don't think people are ready right now to fully sign on and like pay a patreon of a, of an AI generated closed situation. Like they're just not interested in that. But I do think over time that will change.
And I think what the first step will be not from content in general, because where people are very particular with their content, but it'll come in the form of like, health care, for instance, you know, everyone right now, or not everyone, and people in North America for the majority. I think if you ask them, would you like to see an AI agent doctor or a human doctor…
MARY: Human.
AMANDA: …they are going to choose human. Yeah. But when the moment comes that they say, hey, human doctor has an 80% chance of diagnosing you correctly and an agent has a 99% chance of diagnosing you correctly, which one would you like to see? In the triage unit of ER, people are going to start opting for AI agent just because of the stats. We won't be able to compete as humans. And so, once that happens, it's going to create the first step in trusting AI agents. And then with that will, will be a ripple effect that, that then, at some point down the line content will, then people will start opting for the content too.
MARY: What about like, you're talking about, you know, that medical example. I get it. But then what about specifically for podcasting? Like, I had a discovery call with a potential new client and we were talking about his show. He already has an established show. And then I was like, oh, you, you also have some, you know, random solo episodes. And to me I was like, they didn't sound as that same energy that you had. And he was like, he was so excited. He was like, oh, that's because they were AI generated. Oh, I, I signed up for this program, it learned my voice and I can just create these short solo episodes with AI generated voice. And I was like, ooh, red flag, red flag. I. And I get why he chose that route and why he did it, but again, part of that society adopting into it. How do we remain transparent about the use of AI voice for podcasting specific so that we don't feel like we're tricking the listener for that shock that, oh, no, that, that wasn't human. Oh my gosh. I believed what he was saying and it wasn't even human.
AMANDA: Yeah, it's scary, isn't it?
MARY: Yeah.
AMANDA: Right now, I think it's very important to be upfront because people are nervous about it. He's experimenting, so great. I'm happy for him. But we do have to label things really clearly because there is this nervousness around it. We have done some hybrid shows with AI voices at Lead Podcasting and we label and we put a disclaimer. We label it really clearly and we're using it for translation purposes, but that just helps with accessibility.
But right now there's. There's just a lot of questioning. We're not able to tell. And this is a lack of regulation and best practices. So we're all just figuring it out. Maybe in the future there's going to just be some ding that you hear the ding, you know there's an AI voice in there and that's it. You're not going to.
MARY: Right.
AMANDA: Like we're going to figure something out that is the signal or that we're going to just know, or it's like a little percentage sign that shows up beside your podcast on Apple and it's going to just tell you or whatever. So, like, we're going to have. We're going to. We're going to know, but right now we don't know how to know, so we have to just say it. [LAUGHTER] And as it continues to evolve and some of these, even, like the tech, the tech creators themselves might iterate and enable features that help with that transparency piece. So I think it's just coming. We just haven't. We're all just trying to figure it out right now.
MARY: Yeah…
AMANDA: Yeah.
MARY: …and there's also, like, the things that we might not have realised in the podcasting world that we have been using AI anyway.
AMANDA: Yes.
MARY: Like, when I really thought about it, I was like, oh, no, wait, you know, like the automatic transcription, the audiograms we make, the video captions, the creating the clips, the teaser clips. These are already things that were using that podcasters might not realise is all AI driven. So…
AMANDA: Yes.
MARY: …it's there.
AMANDA: It's there. I mean, and this comes down to the definition, like AI. Artificial Intelligence is, yeah, everywhere. It's generative AI that has suddenly gotten very good.
MARY: Mmm.
AMANDA: So generative being that it can create and spit out a deliverable and engage with you in a very human, like, way. And that has come down to, like, if you really want to peel it all back, is this. It's not that we didn't have the idea or the concept of how to make this happen, it's that we, we didn't have the computing power to make it happen.
And the computing power has now become a reality. And so that's why Geoffrey Hinton, who now is a Nobel Peace Prize winner and seen as the godfather of deep learning, which is the core of generative AI, you know, he knew this was all possible, but he just couldn't figure out the computing power, piece, the computing. So he was, you know, it's interesting that in, in the 80s, he was talking about all of this and generative AI, this concept, it being a reality. And he was laughed out of academic settings because it just seemed so impossible from a computing standpoint. But here we are. So I'm actually happy for him that he got to see it in his lifetime.
MARY: That’s true.
AMANDA: But I also think he's quite scared now. He's like the one that's dialling it all back, being like, I regret it. So. But it's a lot. It's a lot. He's been talking, he's been researching this for decades.
MARY: Yeah. And that scary part is what I think we're all afraid of the unknown. So then how do we use AI for good? What's the good thing?
AMANDA: I mean, if, if humanity is good, which is. [LAUGHTER] And then we cue the nervous laughter because it's scary and we can't, we don't know. And, and it is a reflection of ourselves. And there are all these theories of how do you put, you know, parameters around what you build in order for it to never go rogue. But there's always loopholes. And so even as we were trying to, in my University of Oxford class, pick apart some of the rules you could put in place. It's hard even just as something as like, all right, a robot could never kill a human. Just. No, no killing allowed. But then what if the agent is your personal, you know, you're thinking about, of like a personal assistant that lives with you or something? This, this robot. But what if also its directive is to keep you safe and then a burglar comes in and shooting at you and then like, you do want the robot to shoot that.
So there's just all these nuances. It's very, very hard to make loophole rules. So, yeah. Is there a chance that things are going to go wrong? Especially in this next, like, decade? For sure, it's probably going to be like, in my head, I think there's going to be a messy middle where, like, big mistakes are going to happen. People will die just, just even out of error. But it will ultimately, to a better society, I think we would get over that hump. And it will be. For it will ultimately be good. And I don't think people will lose their lives.
You know, like, it might feel like it's in jest, but in the reality is, in life, people lose their lives from silly mistakes all the time. And this is just going to be part of that. So I don't think there's like, some major apocalyptic moment coming, but I do think there might be some. Some scary stories that emerge because of errors and learning. The learning that has to happen on the AI agents side and our side.
MARY: Yes. Yeah. The humanity side of it all.
AMANDA: Yeah.
MARY: Okay. Our science fiction dreams are coming true.
AMANDA: Yeah. In short. Yes.
MARY: Well, let's not keep going down this dark, scary path. Let's switch to, like, podcast specific…
AMANDA: Yeah.
MARY: …broadly for the podcasting industry. You know, you are the author of Let's Talk Podcasting, which recently has an updated second edition. Congratulations for that one. And I always say, yeah, podcasting changes so quickly. There's things that's happening all the time. And so I was happy to see an updated version. But, I bet even since that's been published, like, what are some of the things that. Even now that the second edition is out.
AMANDA: Oh my gosh.
MARY: Aside from the AI stuff we just talked about, what. What else has been new since then?
AMANDA: I purposely did not go deep on the AI in this book because I knew it would just change in two seconds. So I do a I just do a quick overview, but I don't go deep on app specifics. One thing that's a fun fact is that I was about to go to print, like, truly a day away. And Chartable announces they’re sun setting.
MARY: Oh, yes.
AMANDA: I had the chance to go in and delete, backspace. That got updated right in the nick of time. So as far as I know, nothing in the book is. Has been outdated just yet. Thank goodness. But it did. It was interesting to go back to look at my. The first edition came out in 2018. I started writing the first edition in 2016. So you can imagine. Yeah, like, this was feels and it's like some things I didn't even remember existed in the podcast space that I were in this book. And I went, oh, my gosh. If you want a little trip down memory lane, like, you try to get that 2018 version, it's funny to just compare it.
But, you know, some of the best practices, obviously, are still the same. So there was. There's definitely elements that I've learned more and I integrated more anecdotes just from my own life of how I brought some of those best practices to fruition. But in, as far as technology goes, yes, I think there's a huge push around the AI and the apps that are coming out and their abilities and how good they are. So right now we use Eleven Labs for the voice generated stuff at Lead Podcasting and who knows, like I think that one's really respected right now in the industry. But that could change in two seconds.
Everyone's, it's like a little race of who's iterating the fastest, who's serving the users the most. I think video podcasting in general is a very interesting trend to track and I'm a big audio first person. I know you are too. Yeah, I mean we're on clean feed right now, so but this is so, you know, we don't, we. This was how it all really began and so it's like the audio purist. But I don't, I don't negate all of the brilliant work that's been done in the video podcast space. I'm just mindful that people talk about podcasting as a trend. I don't think the medium is a bubble that's going to burst, but I do think the video aspect of it is, it is a little bit more bubble-esque, so to say.
Like, this trend of having two people sitting and like with a Shure microphone on the, on a big stand, like that imagery with it and then the thumbnail with the cutout and like three big words with one of them highlighted. Like we could all imagine this visual like that is of its time. And I think in 10 years we'll look back and be like, that was so 2025, you know?
MARY: Cringe moment.
AMANDA: Yeah, it'll be like, oh, cute. That's what they were doing. And it won't, that, that won't last forever, but it will iterate in some way. And I'm sure there will always be some form of video podcast, but I just don't think it's gonna like look and feel and sound the way it is right now. And so I barely talked about video podcasts in the first edition. I did a whole thing on it in this edition. So that's an example of one, you know, emerging trend that's really changed since then that I, and that I foresee will continue to evolve.
MARY: Yeah, it's very interesting to see everyone, well, the big names, the big players in the podcasting industry, you know, so for, you know, independent podcasters looking up their role models, it's usually gonna be those celebrity podcasts with a big team behind them like the Smartless or Julia Louise Dreyfus’ show or a lot of business people love Mel Robbins. You know, these are the leaders that every podcaster that is in that smaller independent space looks up to.
But I feel like there's still a big difference when it comes to those type of shows versus the independent shows. You know, we're doing this as a passion project or we're solopreneurs and using it as a marketing piece. So what is the biggest difference, though, that you see that these independent podcasters need to do and not emulate from the big celebrity shows?
AMANDA: Yeah, I think it's being realistic with yourself and your expectations and your goals. And I think those celebrity shows are nice to draw inspiration from, to get you excited from the medium, but they have teams of 35 people behind them. They have a celebrity name going into it that's going to have a baked in audience. And these are things that are not always as easy to come by when you are an independent.
And so, you know, I say in the book, if you are looking to just how do I write an intro? How do I write a closing? You could kind of mimic the pacing and this number of sentences and the kinds of words that are used from those big players. I think I encourage that, you know, mimic that, that cadence. People like it, you like it. So sure. But when it comes to growth goals or even production standards, I even talk about, like, I kind of made up these definitions because I didn't know how else to put words to it. But the difference between a cleanup edit and a content edit is a big deal, and it's gonna make your podcast sound very different.
So a cleanup being. We're just cleaning it up. You know, you sneeze halfway through, we're gonna take it out. Yeah, you stumbles for 10 seconds straight. We'll tighten that up. And we're putting some music and it's basically as we say in radio, live to tape. You're doing it and you know the whole thing is gonna go out. So some of these celebrity podcasters do that. Like Joe Rogan, for sure. There's no editing. You could tell. And he's found success in that he doesn't even take out the sneezes. It's really live to tape with him and, but that, you know, and that's gonna create a certain sound. But not everybody could pull that off and have a three hour podcast and like measure themselves up against that.
MARY: Yeah.
AMANDA: And then also recognizing ones like, Wiser Than Me with Julia, as you mentioned, like, she as a whole team. And I can only imagine that they're doing content edits where maybe that interview was actually two hours long. They've rearranged it. They've done pickups, they've taken out large chunks, and then the final episodes, 45 minutes. And it's only the best stuff. So I find number one, recognizing, hey, what am I listening to? And what am I expecting of myself? So some people are listening to these content edit shows and being like, okay, so I want to sound like that. And that's not even realistic. They don't even sound like that. That is so much work. So don't try to measure yourself to that standard.
And then recognizing, okay, I'm going to do a cleanup edit or we're just going to live to tape and I'm going to be famous like, like Joe Rogan. And that's also not, you know, realistic, because not everyone can get away with an unproduced podcast like that and see that kind of success. So just, like, recognizing the production, have a critical ear, and then setting goals for yourself, like, what are you truly trying to accomplish? And this is what I ask a lot of people who are wanting to start, like, are you just wanting to tell your story and get it out in the world? Are you trying to hit number one on Apple? Is that, like, really, is that why you're doing this? Trying make money? Is this part of a business thing? Then the way your show's formatted, the way you go about it, the way you invest in it, it changes. So you really have to be clear on the why. And I mean, Start With Why by Simon Sinek is a very powerful TED Talk. So watch that first, and then you could, like, use that to help inspire the why of your show.
MARY: Yeah, that is such a great foundation. And it's also, you know, when we were talking about what's new, what's different, another new thing that you've done is create a kids' version of that book.
AMANDA: Yeah.
MARY: Which I was so excited to see because back in September 2020, my daughter was entering kindergarten. So, like, first school, you know, but pandemic…
AMANDA: Yep.
MARY: …and her kindergarten teacher was wanting to create a classroom podcast.
AMANDA: Oh that’s so cute!
MARY: So just, you know, for the kids, but also to include, you know, the caregivers. So I love seeing now that you've got this book that is for these kids in the young elementary school age. So why did you decide to go that route?
AMANDA: Yeah, so that's okay. So the book is a picture book, and it's a how to. It really is an explainer, and it's targeted for kids age 5 to 8. There are no introductory resources of this kind for kids that age to introduce them to podcasting as a medium. And so, I was like, it's, you know, once I started doing research and realising that, I was like, oh, my gosh, it's, I have to just. Just put this out in the universe.
But how it all came to be, interestingly, was I was starting to get booked for podcasting workshops for Girl Guides, for summer camps and some classrooms, and this. The kids were so responsive. It was incredible. I played an episode of Case 63. If you don't know it, it's a Spotify original. Julianne Moore. It's sci fi. Really great. And the first episode's eight minutes. And I went, all right, I don't know, I'll start playing this. I'll just read the room, see how long they last. This was for a group of gals that were like 9 to 12. And all of these kids closed their eyes and listened to that entire eight minutes, audio only. And then it ends on a cliffhanger.
[LAUGHER]
And they're like, no, what happened? They were so cute. And I was like, oh, my gosh, this is powerful. And then when I was writing the second edition of my book, so kind of all at the same time, it was over the summer, I did that summer camp. I'm writing the book, the second edition, and I just start updating all the stats. I'm literally just diving into the research that I hadn't gotten so granular with. I was. I was surprised to see the jumps in listenership for kids under 12. I went, oh, wow, wow, wow. This is huge. Disney's investing. Like, this is, this is big. And I don't have kids, so I didn't know anecdotally, but I knew anecdotally from my workshops. I knew from the research. I just thought, so while I was writing the second edition of the book, I went, I guess I'm writing a kid's book too.
[LAUGHTER]
So it was the last second decision we wrote at the same time. As soon as the graphic designer was done the, was done the adult version of the book, I was like, next project right here.
MARY: Gosh.
AMANDA: And we pumped out the kids' version. So now, yeah, it's great to have out in the world.
MARY: I love that you're, like, supporting the next generation of podcasters as well.
AMANDA: I love that for them.
MARY: Yeah. And they, you know, for them, at least for my daughter, specifically, right? Because she's like, you know what, what do your parents do in class? Right. And my Daughter's like, my mom works in podcasting, you know, And I'm like, that's so cool.
AMANDA: So cool.
MARY: And then when she's. She's at home and she's like, can I be on the podcast? I'm like, well, you can't be on this one…
AMANDA: Oh that’s so sweet!
MARY: …but you can try and make your own? And then, you know, and I was like, you know what? You don't have to do, like, my version of a podcast. But you have an iPad.
AMANDA: Yeah.
MARY: It's got a microphone attached to it.
AMANDA: Yeah.
MARY: So just create something. And she started filming like, her, this was a few years ago during, I think it was still pandemic season. So, like, she was, she got all her stuffies and she created a stage. She drew a background behind it.
AMANDA: Oh my gosh.
MARY: And she kept calling it the whole time. Oh, this is my podcast. In my mind, I'm like, that's not a podcast. But okay. [LAUGHTER]
AMANDA: Yes. Well, that's what's funny. Kids are using the word podcast very interestingly.
MARY: Yes.
AMANDA: I noticed that it's like any video, any conversation is being referred to as a podcast, which I know us will be like, no, that's not correct. But also, they're the ones who are going to define what a podcast is.
MARY: Exactly.
AMANDA: So I guess that is. And we talk about that a little bit in the book. I say I actually have a line in there that says the definition of podcasting keeps changing.
MARY: Yeah.
AMANDA: So, because that. Who knows what it's going to be even five years from now, what people will be referring to when they use that word.
MARY: I know, exactly. So, yeah, when she was like, this is a podcast. I'm like, yes, yes, it is. You go have fun.
AMANDA: Oh, that's so sweet. Oh, my gosh. You have to record these moments also for your own self. I hope you get this down. It's so special.
MARY: Oh, so, yes. I love that you're, you know, talking about the next generation of podcasters for, like, the young kids, but also, like the whole next generation of podcasting with AI.
AMANDA: Yeah.
MARY: So there's so much changing. But in this very moment, as we are recording at the end of March 2025. What are you podcasting right now?
AMANDA: The kids stuff really excites me. It's a total divergence from everything I've done in my career. I've done corporate thought leaders, you know, and so, this kids book is the start for me, I think, of a whole other path that I'm excited to go down further. So that for sure, that's a whole, I have so many ideas. Like, I don't even know where to begin. I bought. You don't even know how many domains I went and just bought up...
MARY: Love this! This is amazing.
AMANDA: …Idea, idea, idea. So I just. I'm trying to calm. Calm down. But I have a whole. Like, I'm very excited about that as a world. And, you know, I've spent my whole life creating podcasts for other people, and it's so, and I've hosted some, but they were never mine. Like, it was never really, really mine.
MARY: I know I was deep diving on you, and I'm like, I can't find your own podcast interesting.
AMANDA: It’s strange, I know. Well, and I always say, I mean, I have such joy in bringing other people’s to life and. And I spent so much time in radio where I got to talk a lot. Like, I'm okay, but, you know, I, but I, I do actually want to make my own. I want to do something that's like, again, you think about the why. Like, I want to do something that I just want to do as my own for my own personal self. So. Yeah, that's kind of, I'm excited about that idea too. Well, we got to just. We gotta wait. That'll be 2026 for sure. That's, we're not getting into that this year.
MARY: All right. I'm excited to, uh, go on all those multiple websites that you've.
AMANDA: Oh, my gosh. Yeah. I'm like a, I'm like a platinum member with Squarespace. They love me. Yeah. [LAUGHTER]
MARY: Amanda, this has been amazing. So much fun chatting with you, and I cannot, uh, wait to see what comes up next for you. And if you ever need, uh. Well, my daughter's nine now. If you need a 9, 10.
AMANDA: Okay.
MARY: Year old for anything, let me know.
AMANDA: I gotta start my talent scouting. So. Yeah, I'm gonna. I'm gonna ask for her demo, and we'll be in touch.
MARY: Yeah. Awesome.
AMANDA: Thanks, Mary. This was really fun.
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MARY: Okay. Disclaimer. Well, okay, maybe this should have been at the top of the show, but after listening to that conversation, it felt like I needed a disclaimer that no AI voice was used in the making of this podcast. But I guess you would have guessed that, right? Yeah, I just. I needed to let you know, just because of the conversation that we just had about being transparent. So here we are.
But as we were saying, I still use AI for certain tasks, like creating that initial transcript. It is AI generated, and then we as humans go through it to make those edits. And do things like spell last names correctly. Amanda's last name get spelled wrong all the time. So we do those things to make sure that we add that element of humanity to it. Because AI transcripts are just the words. But we like adding in a little bit of those emotional spots like, laughter, which happens a lot in this episode. You'll see it in the transcript. Laughter. It's those nuanced parts of the conversation that is all audio that never, ever gets picked up by AI generated transcripts. So we love adding that human touch.
Podcasts as well when they're published out into the world. You might not know it, but because it is publicly available, some major tech companies have probably downloaded it to use in a language learning model without our direct consent. Things are happening. But I think what Amanda was getting at is that you can also be really amazing to learn from. Having that curiosity to see what the possibilities are to, as we were saying, do some good in the world. But there will be that messy middle, as she says, anything that we are learning and integrating into our lives, even if it's really small things like cooking or learning to drive, testing out a new device, a phone that you have, there's always a learning curve. And with generative AI, there's a learning curve too. But those can have a bigger impact when generative AI make mistakes.
So it's going to take some learning and growing, but even that time frame is shrinking. The amount of knowledge that these models have now has grown exponentially in the last few years. So with more and more research and technology scaling this, maybe these mistakes won't be as costly as we might fear because we are learning at a bigger scale. Machines will be able to learn quickly from their mistakes, hopefully, and actually be useful and do that good in the world that we're hoping for, representing the diverse population that we have. Having the regular podcaster like you be represented in the ever changing AI landscape can hopefully represent who we all are instead of one type of person that these AI models are learning from. So don't be afraid to use it. Maybe I'm just saying that to ease my own fears.
So tell me, are you using AI or even generative AI in your podcast? Does the AI voice scare you or are you experimenting with it? Let me know by leaving a voice note from my website, VisibleVoicePodcast.com or as always, an email is great too a [email protected] and I'm hoping that you will type out this email or voice it yourself and not have an AI do it.
On the next episode, we're going to examine, examine what it's like to take a pause from your podcast. You know, the weather is getting warmer, people are re-evaluating things and what is important. And sometimes the podcast needs to take a little bit of a break or a backseat. So how do we restart or re-imagine your podcast if we're in a season of overwhelm in business, for example, what, what can you do to prep for this pause? Take a little summer vacation for yourself. What can it look like when you're back? We're going to figure out some of these things on the next episode, so I'll talk to you then.
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MARY: Thank you so much for listening to the Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice. If you enjoyed this episode, I'd love it if you’d share it with a podcasting friend. And to reveal more voicing and podcasting tips, click on over to VisibleVoicePodcast.com. Until next time.
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