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**This episode was originally released on June 10, 2022. Given Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene's recent comments about a "national divorce," it seems appropriate to revisit the history around this subject (with last week's episode), and the legality and likelihood of that happening in the future (this week's episode).

Last week, I talked to Dr. Susan Schulten about the history of secession in the United States, the Civil War, and lessons we may, or may not, have learned. Today, I’m focusing on contemporary secession movements. My first guest, Dr. Timothy Waters (Maurer School of Law at Indiana University) is the author of Boxing Pandora: Rethinking Borders, States, and Secession in a Democratic World. We discuss secession movements globally, how they are instigated, their likelihood of success, something Shawn calls "country hunting," and how international law supports, or disincentivizes, serious secession sentiment. My second guest, Marcus Ruiz Evans, is the author of California’s Next Century 2.0: Economic Renaissance. He is also the leader of California’s secession initiative, Yes California (or Calexit). We talk about the divisions he sees between California and the rest of the United States, his vision for a new nation-state of California, and how he plans to get there. 

**Note that these interviews were conducted about one month into the Russian war in Ukraine.**

Mentioned:
Texas v. White

 Recommended:
Boxing Pandora: Rethinking Borders, States, and Secession in a Democratic World– Timothy Waters
California’s Next Century 2.0: Economic Renaissance– Marcus Ruiz Evans

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