This week, the Senate will consider more of Trump’s Cabinet nominees, including his pick for FBI director, Kash Patel. For this midweek podcast, we're looking back at this conversation host Micah Loewinger had with Atlantic staff writer Elaina Plott Calabro, who charted Patel's rise to power, starting at the very beginning of his legal career. She explains how he came to loathe the media, and love Trump.

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The new administration is purging data from government websites and databases, such as the Department of Justice and the National Security Agency. On this week's On the Media, a historian shares the political playbook for rewriting the past in order to control the future. Plus, meet the different Christian groups vying for power at the White House.

[01:00] Host Micah Loewinger looks at the White House’s purge of data and records. He talks to Dara Kerr, a reporter at the Guardian, about President Trump’s attempt to ramp up deportations and how ICE is fudging its numbers. Micah also speaks with Molly White, author of the newsletter “Citation Needed” and Wikipedia editor, about why Musk and others on the right are going after Wikipedia. 

[13:24] Host Brooke Gladstone talks to Jason Stanley, professor of philosophy at Yale University and author of the book Erasing History: How Fascists Rewrite the Past to Control the Future, about the narrative the new administration is constructing.

[31:46] Brooke Gladstone hears from Matthew D. Taylor, author of The Violent Take It by Force: The Christian Movement That Is Threatening Our Democracy. They discuss the three Christian factions jostling for power in the new administration: the independent Charismatics like Trump’s faith adviser Paula White-Cain, the trad Catholics (represented by J.D. Vance), and the theobros (epitomized by Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth).

Further reading:

• “US immigration is creating a mirage of mass deportations on Google search,” by Dara Kerr
• “Elon Musk and the right’s war on Wikipedia,” by Molly White
• Erasing History: How Fascists Rewrite the Past to Control the Future, by Jason Stanley
• The second coming of Donald J. Trump,” by Matthew D. Taylor

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Micah joins Anna Sale on Death, Sex and Money to revisit their 2023 conversation with Tasha Adams, ex-wife of Stewart Rhodes the founder of the Oath Keepers. Rhodes was convicted of seditious conspiracy for his role in the January 6th insurrection –– prosecutors argued that members of the Oath Keepers used force to block the results of the election. He was sentenced to 18 years in prison.

Now he's out. 

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Elon Musk's Department of Government Efficiency has accessed sensitive information at the treasury and gutted the United States Agency for International Development. On this week’s On the Media, how a tech magazine scooped mainstream outlets with its reporting on the DOGE taskforce. Plus, at the Department of Justice, data wipes and mass firings target records of January 6.

[01:00] Host Micah Loewinger sits down with Vittoria Elliott, reporter for WIRED covering platforms and power. This week WIRED has been covering Elon Musk’s rampage through the federal agencies, and has been the first to report on several key stories

[12:51] Micah speaks with Ryan J. Reilly, who covers the Justice Department and federal law enforcement for NBC News, about President Donald Trump’s campaign of retribution against those in the Justice Department and Federal Bureau of Investigation who he feels unfairly targeted him and his followers.

[26:09] Host Brooke Gladstone sits down with Representative Don Beyer of Virginia to talk about Democrats' approach as President Trump challenges Congress’ power. Brooke also speaks with Ezra Levin, co-founder and co-executive director of the nonprofit Indivisible, about Democrats’ PR strategies, and the party’s resistance to using the Mitch McConnell playbook to push back against the G.O.P.

Further reading:

• “The Young, Inexperienced Engineers Aiding Elon Musk’s Government Takeover,” By Vittoria Elliott
• “The US Treasury Claimed DOGE Technologist Didn’t Have ‘Write Access’ When He Actually Did,” By Vittoria Elliott, Leah Feiger, Tim Marchman
• “Trump administration forces out multiple senior FBI officials and January 6 prosecutors,” By Ken Dilanian, Tom Winter, Ryan J. Reilly and Michael Kosnar
• Sedition Hunters: How January 6th Broke the Justice System, By Ryan Reilly
• “Here's How Democrats Can Stop Trump and Musk,”by Ezra Levin and Leah Greenberg

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According to the Financial Times, 225 out of Musk’s 616 tweets and retweets in the first week of January were about UK politics. Meanwhile, Musk has praised the prime minister of Italy, far-right politician Giorgia Meloni, describing her as “even more beautiful on the inside than on the outside.” At a time when his company SpaceX is reportedly in talks for a billion dollar contract with the Italian government. And then there’s his entrance into the German political scene; showing up to AFD rallies and more. Micah spoke to Bojan Pancevski, chief European political correspondent at The Wall Street Journal, about Elon Musk’s political profile in Germany, and its consequences. 

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 President Donald Trump has signed dozens of executive orders since returning to office. On this week’s On the Media, how the directives are butting heads with existing laws. Plus, what the DeepSeek saga reveals about American A.I.

[01:00]  Host Brooke Gladstone sits down with Dahlia Lithwick, a senior editor at Slate and host of the podcast Amicus, to discuss Donald Trump’s attempt to freeze billions of dollars in federal funding, the legality of the president’s litany of executive orders, and how political paralysis is the point.

[21:00] Brooke speaks with Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast and author of the newsletter Where’s Your Ed At on how the release of a new Chinese AI chatbot model, DeepSeek-R1, threatens to burst the American A.I. bubble, and how tech moguls have gotten away with overhyping A.I. for years.

[38:14] Brooke continues the conversation with Ed Zitron, peeling back the facade to explore what generative A.I. can actually do.

Further reading:

• “How Will the Supreme Court Respond to Trump’s Budget-Freeze Power Grab?” by Dahlia Lithwick
• “Trump’s First Flurry of Executive Orders Plagued by a Surprising Problem,” by Dahlia Lithwick and Mark Joseph Stern
• “Deep Impact,” by Ed Zitron
• “Godot Isn't Making it,” by Ed Zitron
• “Bubble Trouble,” by Ed Zitron

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When OpenAI launched ChatGPT in November 2022, all the big tech firms were clamoring to make their own versions of the “intelligent” chatbot. Billions of dollars have been thrown into the technology – training the models, creating more advanced computer chips, building data centers. But last week, a Chinese artificial intelligence company called DeepSeek released a generative AI model that is not only competitive with the latest version of OpenAI’s model, but it was done cheaper, in less time, and with less advanced hardware. For this midweek podcast extra, host Brooke Gladstone sat down with Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast and writer of the newsletter “Where’s your Ed at,” to talk about how this new Chinese AI model threatens to burst the American tech AI bubble.

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President Donald Trump’s second term began with a flurry of executive orders and press. On this week’s On the Media, how to navigate the onslaught of news. Plus, executives at major outlets are telling reporters to tone down coverage of the new administration. And, what we can learn about Trump by looking at the legacy of his favorite president, William McKinley.

[01:00]  Host Brooke Gladstone on the flood of executive orders emerging from President Trump’s return to the Oval Office, and how the chaos is the point. Plus, host Micah Loewinger explores the role of fear in stymying action and understanding. 

[18:55] Micah Loewinger speaks with Oliver Darcy, author of the newsletter Status and former CNN media reporter, on how media execs are instructing reporters to tone down their Trump coverage, and how current political journalism compares to that of four years ago.

[34:21] Brooke Gladstone speaks with Chris Lehmann, the DC Bureau chief for The Nation and a contributing editor at The Baffler, on what we can learn from President Donald Trump's role model, President William McKinley. 

Further reading:

• “What ‘Mass Deportation’ Actually Means,” by Dara Lind
• “The Invasion of the Body Snatchers,” by Oliver Darcy
• “Donald Trump Is Building a Bridge to 1896,” by Chris Lehmann

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We are living in history all of the time. Nevertheless, there are some times that seem more historical than usual. Like now, when academics and artists and even librarians have come under attack. We mention this particular sign of these times because of a new, delightful book by historian Elyse Graham, professor of Sociology at Stony Brook University called “Book and Dagger - How Scholars and Librarians Became the Unlikely Spies of World War Two." The book is a breezy and enthralling read, but assiduously footnoted for those who might question her very compelling argument that without this unheralded corp of peculiar recruits, that war might very well have been lost. 

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The Supreme Court has upheld a ban on TikTok. On this week’s On the Media, hear how the ruling could affect other media companies, and where TikTokers are going next. Plus, California’s latest wildfires are devastating, but they’re not unprecedented.

[01:00]  Host Micah Loewinger sits down with David Cole, professor of law and public policy at Georgetown University, and former National Legal Director of the American Civil Liberties Union, to discuss what the Supreme Court TikTok ban could mean for all kinds of media companies.

[16:39] Host Micah Loewinger speaks with Ryan Broderick, tech journalist, host of the podcast Panic World, and author of the newsletter “Garbage Day,” on the great TikTok migration to RedNote, and what the platform’s potential ban means for the future of the Internet.

[35:08] Host Brooke Gladstone speaks with Rebecca Solnit, author of A Paradise Built in Hell: The Extraordinary Communities That Arise in Disaster, on what she, a California native, has found shocking but not surprising about the Los Angeles fires. 

Further reading:

• “Free Speech for TikTok?,” by David Cole
• “America's youth longs for Chinese e-commerce,” by Ryan Broderick
• “TikTok doesn't need America,” by Ryan Broderick
• “The chronicle of a fire foretold,” by Rebecca Solnit
• A Paradise Built in Hell: The Extraordinary Communities That Arise in Disaster by Rebecca Solnit

On the Media is supported by listeners like you. Support OTM by donating today (https://pledge.wnyc.org/support/otm). Follow our show on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook @onthemedia, and share your thoughts with us by emailing [email protected].