Grey Matters with Leah Mermelstein

Six episodes.

Three guests.

Three weeks spent actually living inside their ideas.

In this final episode of Season 2, Leah reflects on what stuck, what's still genuinely hard, and what she's considering for Season 3, including a possible new format that brings a whole system, superintendent, coach, and teachers, into one conversation.

Leah also shares more about who she is for new listeners, the work behind the podcast, and how her 10 Writing Essentials framework helps school teams put this season's ideas into practice together.

In this episode:

• What Zaretta's "first pancake" taught Leah about her own instinct to tighten, in parenting and in district partnerships
• Why Kata's case for watching instruction over trusting a script is easier to start than to sustain, and what makes it hard
• What Dana's "no reform is ever a mistake" revealed about being seen but not heard, for both students and teachers
• The gap between believing an idea and actually living inside it when it's hard
• An open question about Season 3, and an invitation for listeners to help shape it

Leah wants to hear from you. What from this season stuck with you? What fell flat? Would you want to hear from a whole school team next season, or go back to something closer to Season 1's teacher interviews? Message her directly, she reads every one.

If something from this season resonated, share it with an administrator or colleague in your building and start the conversation there.

Ways to get in touch with Leah:

• Facebook
• LinkedIn
• Substack
• 10 Essentials Writing Cohort
• Website
• Explore a partnership

Last episode, Dana Palubiak said something almost in passing — about her own three kids, and the one who never showed up on anyone's radar, not because he was struggling, but because the system was never built to notice him.

I couldn't stop thinking about it.

So I did what this show is built on: I lived with the phrase for a week. And it kept leading me back to the same three stories — a teacher, mourning something out loud in a meeting, and getting told "change is hard."

A student whose needs finally got heard, after years of not being taken seriously.

A writer who's technically doing everything right, and still waiting for someone to notice she's ready for more.

None of them were unseen. All three were seen, and unheard.

You'll leave this one with something to sit with, and something concrete to actually try tomorrow.

📎 Season 1, Episode 1 — where this all started
📎 Rod Naquin's article on managing paradox
📎 Lester Laminack's Ferris Wheel piece
📎 My own follow-up piece, written after his
📎 Episode 17 with Dana Palubiak (add link once published)

Ways to get in touch with Leah:

• Facebook
• LinkedIn
• Substack
• 10 Essentials Writing Cohort
• Website
• Explore a partnership

Thirty years in the classroom. Four literacy reforms. One line that stopped a lot of people in their tracks.

If the words "Lucy Calkins" weren't attached to Dana Palubiak's teaching, a lot of people would call it a textbook example of the science of reading.

That's the moment this episode turns on. Dana taught for thirty years — through the Basal Reader, guided reading, Fountas & Pinnell, Units of Study, and the arrival of the science of reading — and watched the same cycle happen again and again: a new resource gets adopted, gets called the solution, and a few years later gets called a mistake.

Her answer to why isn't "pick a side." It's sharper than that: programs don't teach kids — teachers teach children.

In this conversation, Dana and I get into:

• Why she doesn't believe a single one of her thirty years of reforms was a mistake — and what she thinks each one actually gave her
• The moment she went back into a first-grade classroom as a long-term sub and realized kids were being taught below their actual reading level, script in hand
• Her "Dictionary Project" — tracking how words like curiosity, judgment, and wisdom have quietly been replaced in education by data, accountability, and fidelity
• What she thinks systems actually owe teachers, if we want any resource — any resource — to work

This isn't a defense of Lucy Calkins. It isn't an argument for the science of reading either. It's what thirty years inside a classroom actually looks like when nobody's trying to win an argument.

📎 Dana's original Education Week piece
📎 The facebook thread that started this conversation

 📎My follow-up piece, "One Reality Isn't Enough" — still my most-read piece to date
📎 Ways to connect with Dana directly

Substack: @DanaPalubiak
X: @DanaPalubiak
Email: [email protected]

🎧 Listen wherever you get your podcasts. Stay comfortable in the grey.

For questions and thoughts about the podcast: [email protected]

Ways to get in touch with Leah:

• Facebook
• LinkedIn
• Instagram
• Substack

What if "kids are the point" isn't enough on its own — and "teachers are the point" isn't either?

This week, I'm living with a line from my conversation with Kata Solow: the curriculum isn't the point, the kids are the point, and the teachers are the point, because helping kids means helping teachers first, and at the same time. I thought I already believed this. Turns out I'd been living one half of it for years without giving the other half the same attention.

This episode also picks up something left hanging from my last solo episode — Zaretta's correction that curriculum and instruction are two different things — and asks a harder question underneath it: does meta-strategic thinking have to stay invisible, or can it be normalized right into the way a curriculum document is written?

What we cover:

• The two kinds of dismissal hiding inside "kids are the point" and "teachers are the point" — one loud, one much quieter
• Robert Pondiscio's case for done-for-you curriculum, and my colleague Marcus's case for the opposite — and why they're both right, for different teachers
• What "right-sizing" a curriculum document, not just instruction, actually looks like
• An inside look at a real district curriculum-and-coaching partnership I'm building this year, from the research phase through year-long classroom coaching
• A concrete call to action for system leaders: naming which kind of teacher is in front of you, and right-sizing your response to that person, not a blanket policy

Referenced in this episode:

• Kata Solow's guest episode — Grey Matters
• Zaretta Hammond's guest episode — Episode 13 of Grey Matters
• Robert Pondiscio, "The 'Case for Curriculum' Is about Reducing Teachers' Workload" — Fordham Institute
• Marcus, "Why I Love Designing Unit Plans" — The Broken Copier (Substack)
• Schoolutions, "Bending the Curriculum," with Olivia Wahl

Connect with me:

Ways to get in touch with Leah:

• Facebook
• LinkedIn
• Substack
• 10 Essentials Writing Cohort
• Website
• Explore a partnership www.leahmermelstein.com

This week, Kata Solow, Executive Director of the Goyen Foundation, joins me. Kata has spent her career studying why reform movements — even well-researched ones — can look promising on paper and still fall short once they meet a real school district.

Her recent piece responding to Liana Loewus's Education Next article on over-teaching phonics didn't take a side. Instead, she named what the field still doesn't know — and what it needs to ask instead.

We talk about the uncertainty at the heart of the science of reading movement, the difference between right-sizing instruction and removing professional judgment altogether, and what keeps "the conversation" from becoming a stalling tactic.

She also hands me one of my favorite lines of the season: "The curriculum is not the point. The kids are."

What we cover:

• Why the direction on explicit, systematic phonics instruction is clear — but the dosage questions (how much, how long, which grades) aren't
• Why naming this uncertainty out loud provoked outrage — and why that fear can be both legitimate and dangerous
• "Right-sizing" phonics to the students in front of you, and the professional judgment that asks for
• What separates real instructional dialogue from "let's keep talking" as a stalling tactic
• What Kata wants a superintendent mid-adoption — or a teacher inside an imperfect system — to hold onto

Referenced in this episode:

• Liana Loewus, "The Cost of Over-Teaching Phonics" — Education Next
• Kata Solow, "11 Thoughts on the Over-Teaching of Phonics" — Science of Reading Classroom (Substack)
• Lester Laminack's Ferris Wheel piece

Connect with Kata:

• Science of Reading Classroom
• Goyen Foundation

Connect with Leah

• Facebook
• LinkedIn
• Substack
• 10 Essentials Writing Cohort
• Website
• Explore a partnership

If something from this episode is sitting with you, I want to hear it.

If you found this useful, share it with a colleague and leave a review —

Until next time, stay in the grey.

What if the fastest way to make real, lasting change — with one person, or an entire district — is to move slower, not faster, even when everything in you says there's no time for that?

This week, I'm living with a phrase from my conversation with Zaretta Hammond: slow down to go fast. And I'm doing it through one small, honest story — a wobbly week in my own house, months before Zaretta ever gave me the language for what actually happened in it.

This isn't a new discovery for me. I've told teachers and districts for years that sustainable change takes time. This episode is me testing whether I actually live that under pressure, or just say it — and using one real story to make Zaretta's densest ideas (the first pancake, meta-strategic thinking, the learning pit) as clear as I can.

What we cover:

• Why the wobble — the "first pancake" — is the point of real change, not evidence something's broken
• Pedagogy of compliance vs. pedagogy of possibility, tested inside my own family
• What meta-strategic thinking actually looks like when a learner builds it herself, before anyone hands her the words for it
• "Portable" learning — why it matters more than a task getting done
• What I'm testing in a brand-new year-long district coaching partnership: expecting the wobble instead of getting surprised by it
• The honest reckoning — do any of us actually hold to "change takes time" under real pressure, or only on the days it happens to work out?

Referenced in this episode:

• Zaretta Hammond's guest episode — Episode 13 of Grey Matters
• The Learning Pit: James Nottingham
• Learning That Transfers: Julie Stern, Krista Ferraro, Kayla Duncan and Trevor Aleo

Ways to get in touch with Leah:

• Facebook
• LinkedIn
• Substack
• 10 Essentials Writing Cohort
• Website
• Explore a partnership

What if the most "orderly" classroom in your building is quietly failing the students you most want to reach?

Season 2 opens with Zaretta Hammond — teacher educator, consultant, and author of books that have changed how a generation of educators think about equity, cognition, and instruction.

Her newest book, Rebuilding Students' Learning Power, is the ground we stand on today: how do we build the cognitive capacity of every student, especially the ones systems have historically underestimated?

There's a phrase in the book I haven't put down since: the pedagogy of compliance — the idea that some of what we've accepted as "exemplar" classroom management might actually be quietly underdeveloping the very students we most want to reach.

I brought Zaretta a real, unresolved question of my own: early in my career, I walked into a chaotic classroom, panicked, and tightened into compliance.

She didn't just diagnose what went wrong. She gave me a way out that doesn't swing back to chaos: slow down to go fast.

What we cover:

• Pedagogy of compliance vs. pedagogy of possibility, and why systems default to the first even when they say they want the second
• Why "chaos" is usually a sign of a bored brain, not a discipline problem
• Slow down to go fast: why piloting change with 25–30 teachers beats rolling it out to everyone at once
• Instructional leadership vs. management, and why walkthrough checklists can't tell you if learning is happening
• Over-scaffolding as a hidden equity trap
• The learning pit — why teachers and systems move through discomfort to grow, not just students
• The "invisible curriculum": why teaching kids how to learn matters as much as what they learn

Referenced in this episode:

• Zaretta Hammond Rebuilding Student's Learning Power
• Zaretta Hammond, Culturally Responsive Teaching and the Brain
• The Learning Pit: James Nottingham
• Learning That Transfers: Julie Stern, Krista Ferraro, Kayla Duncan and Trevor Aleo

Connect with Zaretta:

Linkedin

Facebook 

Website
Connect with me: www.leahmermelstein.com

If something here is sitting with you, I want to hear it. Share it with a colleague and leave a review — it's how more people find this show.

Until next time — stay comfortable in the grey.

Leah and Angela reunite for the season finale to debrief episodes 9–11 and weave together the month's biggest ideas. They reflect on Stella Villalba's concept of kid watching, Angela's solo episode on self-observation, and Leah's episode on seeing others more fully — and find a surprising thread connecting all three: the discomfort and richness of not knowing what you'll find when you slow down and look honestly.

Kid watching as a gray space

Stella's words about kid watching are powerful precisely because they are unpredictable — and how that same messiness applies when we turn observation inward on ourselves.

Shame and the reading wars

How urgency to close research gaps has sometimes shamed educators who dedicated careers to doing their best — and why calling people out rarely creates the change we're hoping for.

Context, capitalism, and guru culture

A candid conversation about money, professional pedestals, and why research divorced from human context isn't as useful as it sounds.

Teachers have more power than they think

Leah shares a formative lesson from professor Sonia Nieto — and both hosts reflect on what it means to gather your own evidence, act without waiting for permission, and trust your classroom as a data source.

A season goodbye from Angela

Angela shares that she'll be stepping back as co-host, and both Leah and Angela reflect on what this first season has taught them about learning in public.

• Episode 9 — Guest: Stella Villalba on kid watching
• Episode 10 — Angela's solo reflection on self-observation
• Episode 11 — Leah's episode on seeing others more fully
• Kelly Cartwright's active view of reading
• Sonia Nieto, educator and author
• Olivia Wall, podcast mentor

Grey Matters returns in September with Season 2. Until then — stay comfortable being in the gray.

For questions and thoughts about the podcast: [email protected]

Ways to get in touch with Angela:

• Website
• Facebook
• LinkedIn
• Instagram
• Substack

Ways to get in touch with Leah:

• Facebook
• LinkedIn
• Instagram
• Substack

In this solo episode, Leah Mermelstein builds on insights from Stella Villalba (Episode 9) and Angela Stockman (Episode 10) to explore a question that feels simple but is profoundly complex:

What does it actually look like to learn from people who think differently than we do?

Leah dives into the “how” of meaningful dialogue, offering practical, human-centered strategies for educators and leaders alike, including:

• Suspending judgment as a deliberate, actionable protocol
• Embracing humility and courage in professional conversations
• Moving from parallel talk to mutual influence
• Creating classrooms and workplaces where both teachers and students expect to be changed through dialogue

For questions and thoughts about the podcast: [email protected]

Ways to get in touch with Angela:

• Website
• Facebook
• LinkedIn
• Instagram
• Substack

Ways to get in touch with Leah:

• Facebook
• LinkedIn
• Instagram
• Substack

Next Up:
Episode 12 — Leah and Angela return together to continue exploring the gray spaces of learning and dialogue.

Research and References:

• Dr. Katy Anthes’ Forward Framework: strategies for turning polarization into productive disagreement
• Research from More in Common on reducing division and fostering understanding
• Additional podcast about this topic by the amazing Olivia Wahl
• Leah's Substack article

If you're following us here on Grey Matters, then you're likely a teacher who watches learners closely. You pay attention, and you lean in to listen. You've likely built your whole practice around that quality of attention.

But when did you last turn it on yourself?

In this episode, Angela reflects on a day of writing and making alongside educators in Dublin, Ohio and what it surfaced about the habitats we come from, the constraints we're living inside of right now, and the identity capital we're building whether we've chosen our circumstances or not.

She explores naturalist writing as a tool for self-knowledge, the difference between accepting difficult circumstances and elevating them, and what happened when she brought AI into her graduate classroom this semester in ways that made her a closer reader of her students' work and a more present teacher, too.

This one is for those of you who are doing a lot and feeling the weight of it all. The educators who are still curious, still growing, still trying to stay true to something — even inside of conditions you likely wouldn't have chosen.

For questions and thoughts about the podcast: [email protected]

Ways to get in touch with Angela:

• Website
• Facebook
• LinkedIn
• Instagram
• Substack

Ways to get in touch with Leah:

• Facebook
• LinkedIn
• Instagram
• Substack