Martin is chief scientist at ThoughtWorks. He is one of the original signatories of the Agile Manifesto and author of several legendary books, among which there is Refactoring, which shares the name with this podcast and this newsletter.

With Martin, we talked about the impact of AI on software development, from the development process to how human learning and understanding changes up to the future of software engineering jobs.

Then we explored the technical debt metaphor, why it has been so successful, and Martin's own advice on dealing with it. And finally, we talked about the state of Agile, the resistance that still exists today towards many Agile practices and how to measure engineering effectiveness.

(03:29) Introduction

(05:20) Development cycle with AI

(08:36) Less control and reduced learning

(13:11) Splitting task between Human and AI

(14:48) The skills shift

(20:17) Betting on new technologies

(27:22) Martin's Refactoring and technical debt

(29:24) Accumulating "cruft"

(33:14) Dealing with "cruft"

(37:24) The financial value of refactoring

(42:04) Measuring performances

(46:19) Why the "forest" didn't spread

(56:11) Make the forest appealing

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