Handle with Care: Empathy at Work

- Molly Huffman

A year after Tage died, I had processed so much that by the time my husband left, I, I was I was definitely anxious and really struggling at that point. But then there was this little bit of just, a I had to laugh and maybe that was all I could do to keep from drowning, but it was just like, are you kidding me? Like this, too. This is unreal. You like this. This can't happen to people this much loss.

INTRO

Sometimes in life, it seems like one loss piles on top of the next. And that is certainly the story of my guest today, Molly Huffman. Cancer, miscarriage, infant loss, divorce. Molly's story has been marked by grief. And yet, her story holds more than grief. She shares about the heavy, tumultuous emotions and how she has embraced life on the other side of loss…and about her new book, which chronicles this journey: The Moon is Round.

Before we begin, I want to take a moment to note that, at the time of this recording, our country is reeling from the tragic footage of George Floyd's death, which is convulsing the nation. And this systemic, historic, abuse of black and brown bodies is not new news, it is just the most recent in a tragic continuum that spans centuries. And this is definitely a workplace issue. We will be talking about this in the weeks to come, because it is not a new issue and it is one that this podcast has not given enough voice to in the past.

As we start, I want to thank our podcast sponsor, FullStack PEO. If you are a small business or an entrepreneur, let FullStack take care of your benefits and your payroll so you can focus on what matters most: growing your business. We are also sponsored by my company, Handle with Care consulting. We offer interactive training sessions that build cultures of empathy and care…and don't we all need a little more of that these days?

Now, back to Molly. Molly is a Hoosier by birth but she lives now in Moorehead, Kentucky, in a little neighborhood tucked up in the hills.

- Liesel Mertes

And who are the people and animals that fill your house?

- Molly Huffman

My husband. Guy. And then I have two stepdaughters, Ali, who is 14, and Aaron, who is eleven. And then our son, Mack, who is one and a half. We have a chocolate Lab, Marty, who's twelve and a black and white kitty Bella, who's also twelve.

- Liesel Mertes

And do the dog and the cat get along well?

- Molly Huffman

They became siblings as puppy and kitten. So they've been together their whole lives. However, I don't know what they say in their pet language, but he gets so annoyed with her.

Molly loves to run, even in the sweltering heat of Kentucky summer. And, as I mentioned at the top of the episode, Molly is also a published author.

- Molly Huffman

So the book is hopefully coming in June, and it's titled The Moon is Round. And the subtitle is an extraordinary, true story of Grief, Loss and the Fight for Faith. And I tried to vulnerably share a season of life where everything fell apart. But then what I learned and the good that came from it and with the hopes that it can encourage people, you know, in whatever seasons of loss and grief and questions that they are in.

- Liesel Mertes

Well, and that is a great jumping off point. I want to circle back to the book.

- Liesel Mertes

But tell me what it was like to begin this season of one loss cascading onto the next. Where were you living? What were you doing? What did life look like for you?

- Molly Huffman

I was living in central Indiana at the time and I was newly married, had an elementary teaching job, which is what I'd wanted to do.

- Molly Huffman

I lived near my parents and my younger sisters were all nearby and it just seemed like life was suddenly falling into place. I had everything I wanted. Things were great.

- Molly Huffman

And then all of a sudden, my mom got a cancer diagnosis and and suddenly everything changed. You know? And I had to really just kind of wrestle with all of that,

- Liesel Mertes

And what was your relationship like with your mom? Tell me a little bit about her.

- Molly Huffman

She I'm the oldest of four daughters, and so she and I had come to a point where we were friends. And I, for the most part, was never much of a rebellious kid. So we really had a great relationship. For the majority of my growing up years, with the exception of like a six month time period in high school. But she really was my best friend. She was funny and generous and kind and my favorite person to hang out with and dream and talk about life with and.

- Molly Huffman

And so it was just really devastating to to lose her.

- Liesel Mertes

And was it a long journey with cancer?

- Molly Huffman

She there it was a spot on her shin was melanoma. And it was removed and we thought we were in the clear. And then a year later, it reappeared in some of her lymph nodes and from there just sort of spread. So it was less than a year between the time we discovered it and her lymph nodes until she was gone.

Molly Huffman

But, you know, the the plus was that we had time to say what we wanted to say. The difficult part of that is. That you might be doing a lot of your grieving while the person is still alive. And, you know, so for me it was it was hard to find the balance between enjoying her and also knowing that she's dying, you know?

- Liesel Mertes

Yeah. Tell me tell me a little bit more about that, because that stroke is. Is its own, like daily figuring with that? What would that tension look like one day for you?

- Molly Huffman

So, you know, I no longer lived under her roof because I was married. But I would teach all day and then either go to her house in the evenings or in periods of time when she was hospitalized. I would drive straight to the hospital, you know, just to be with her and to be with my dad and. Then sisters and. So it was exhausting in its own right, you know, because I'm working all day and then going and caring and grieving, which takes so much energy.

- Molly Huffman

But that's just what you do. You know, so we I just. For months. That was. Just how how my days looked. And so trying to have normal conversation, you know, particularly when she was home, talking about the day and what's going on. While watching her decline and, you know, needing to talk about her pain. And what was really interesting was seeing the shift from her being a mother to me and taking care of me.

Molly Huffman

And I was 24 when all this happened. So I hope I would deal with it differently now. However, at the time, I don't think I was done yet being mothered by her. And so it was hard for me to to not feel the care and nurture from her that I was used to feeling as she got sicker and sicker because she just didn't have the energy herself to give in.

- Molly Huffman

So, you know, that was part of a grief as well here that that led that the tons of. Being more alone than when she had been healthy and able to give fully out of more of an overflow. Right.

- Liesel Mertes

So and what was your mother's name?

- Molly Huffman

Susie McCracken. Susie.

- Liesel Mertes

Sometimes I find, you know, people, people who have died. We don't even get to a chance to say their names in the same kind of way. And they had loomed so large, you know, in our life sphere of irony.

- Liesel Mertes

And so this is a devastating thing for you in your early 20s.

- Liesel Mertes

But as you write in your book, this is not the only disruption that was going to come and talk with me a little bit about what that timeline looks like with your first pregnancy and your mother's death.

- Molly Huffman

So a year after. No, I'm sorry. Three years after she died. I had come out of the fog of grief. And my husband and I tried to start our family. And seven weeks into that pregnancy, on her birthday of all days. I had a miscarriage. And, you know, I wasn't yet done grieving the loss of my mom as really I suppose we never are. You know, it just morphs. But it was still pretty fresh to me at that time.

- Molly Huffman

And so. It was devastating because I was so looking forward to this child and new life. And so my husband, I waited another year and then we were pregnant again. And this time our son Tage was born in March of 2014.

- Liesel Mertes

And tell me a little bit about Tage.

- Molly Huffman

He. Well, it's I guess I have to say, a past tense. He ended up passing away, but he was just a beautiful boy and so healthy.

- Molly Huffman

When he was born and just I I felt my joy coming back. And. He was big and strong and had these bright blue eyes that just sparkled.

- Molly Huffman

But around the time that he was five or six months old, we started just noticing that. Something seemed off. He wasn't making eye contact or cooing sounds that babies make. He wasn't smiling. And so we went to a couple doctors and the first one, you know, just maybe thought that I was a new mom and nervous, you know, and sort of dismissed my concern.

- Molly Huffman

And so I rallied. I thought, OK, maybe that's the truth, you know, but things just weren't getting better.

- Molly Huffman

So we went to a different doctor and he immediately diagnosed Tage as failure to thrive because of his weight. And so we were sent for blood work immediately that day and a follow up appointment at the Children's Hospital the next week where they admitted us for muscle impairment problems. And. And so eventually we. Discovered that he had this rare genetic disease called Lei's disease.

- Molly Huffman

And it was affecting the mitochondria of all of his cells.

- Molly Huffman

And so the doctors told us that it was terminal and and that he would not make it to his first birthday.

- Liesel Mertes

So you go from this this big, beautiful, blue eyed baby who's already, you know, a child who has followed a loss and the sadness and the loss of this first baby you were pregnant with and the death of your mom to receiving this news. Was it was it over the span of a couple of weeks or did it did it come to you all in one day? You know, all of the the reality of his condition, I imagine that that is just a 180.

- Molly Huffman

And yes, how we showed centering it was it absolute was we were you know, we went to this follow up appointment at the Children's Hospital, and I legitimately thought that they would. You know, tell us what we needed to do and send us home.

- Molly Huffman

You know, I was not thinking terminal at all. And so when they wanted to admit us in that appointment, I was so confused and so. It took a couple days for. Of us being in the hospital with him, for the doctors to be able to, you know, decide what the what they're working diagnosis would be.

- Molly Huffman

And so two days later, when they told us, you know, I people use that phrase, you know, the room was spinning. But it really it did. I my my body just froze. I could not believe what they were saying. And, you know, how in the world am I going to deal with this after losing my mom and our first pregnancy? And it just didn't feel like I could handle something else.

- Molly Huffman

But as a parent, you figure it out. You know, you you realize, OK, well, once the shock wore off, the next day, it was go time. And we spent a week in the hospital just running different tests and Tage got a G tube so that he could eat successfully.

- Molly Huffman

And so, you know, going home from the hospital a week later, life looked totally different than when we had entered the hospital.

- Liesel Mertes

Well, and I'm struck, as you say, that about a distinct parallel between what you said about your mom, that you were walking this tension of how am I with her and enjoying her, but also grieving her while she's still alive. Did you feel like did that feel akin at all to what you were doing with Tage? Like, I'm I'm with him and I'm wanting to delight in him and be with this child, but I'm grieving him because I have this, I don't know this limited amount of time.

- Molly Huffman

Yes. Oh, it was. It was so difficult. My husband, you know, still had to work. So he would go to work Monday through Friday. And I was home with Tage by myself at first and needing to feed him with a G tube, which was new. And, you know, looking at him was the reminder that he was also dying. And it was just so intense.

- Molly Huffman

It was so emotionally intense during that time, trying to balance. I love him. I want to care for him and enjoy him while also knowing that our time is limited. And. And I didn't know how much time at that point we would have.

- Molly Huffman

But I can say, thankfully, that once I figured out that I could not do that by myself. Friends stepped in and would come over during the day and be with me and just help help me not feel as alone.

- Molly Huffman

Which was so such a gift.

- Liesel Mertes

I'd like to hear more about that because. One, you know, distinct aspect of what this podcast is about is enabling people to be able to show up in ways that are helpful and that matter as these friends came to your house. Did you did you ask them to come? Did they offer to come? How did that start? Like, what was the tipping point? For that to change for you. Sure.

- Molly Huffman

I, I had told a trusted friend or two that. You know that at the time, I, I just could not stop crying because I'm trying to take care of stage, but he's dying, you know. And just seeing him was the reminder. And, and so when I finally admitted that to someone, she said that was actually this is really neat. It was one of my mom's friends. And I think there was this part of me, you know, that when I needed care, you know.

- Molly Huffman

And so she's she saw that and said, what if we make a schedule? And she looks at all these people that were my mom's friends that, you know, were in their friend group,

- Molly Huffman

She said, what if we make a schedule and, you know, just for whatever you want, two hours in the morning, someone can come and then two hours that afternoon, someone can come and, you know, and it can be fluid. You know, maybe we start with somebody in the morning and some in the afternoon every day.

- Molly Huffman

And if that's too much and you can always text us and say, don't come. And so it was really neat.

- Molly Huffman

We ended up making this schedule and so hurt my mom's friends would come and sometimes my friends would come as well, and sometimes we cried. Sometimes they just sat in the other room while, you know, I did the things that I needed to get done. Or they might help with laundry or dishes and. And eventually I realized that actually having someone in the morning, in the afternoon was actually too much because I knew that I needed to process the grief.

- Molly Huffman

But when people were there, it was hard for me to be real about the grief. And so we then tapered it back and, you know, maybe someone would only come in the afternoon. And, you know, sometimes people would.

- Liesel Mertes

I paused for a second just because I'm, I'm struck. You said something interesting that I want to hear more about, the importance of processing your grief and that when someone else was there, I think you said it kept you from being. And being real about the grief that. Tell me more about that. How did the presence of another person in, in so many ways in which it was helpful, but how did that affect how you were processing your grief?

- Molly Huffman

My personality is a helper and a caretaker. It's just what I do. And so when other people are at my house, I can't help but want to take care of them. And so. I got better at letting that go during this time, but. But there was still an underlying sense of like I need to have conversation with this person, I need to entertain them. I need to offer them a drink, you know? And so I I couldn't care for myself emotionally when I'm trying to care for some of the people now, you know, a couple of my very closest friends.

- Molly Huffman

You know, I wouldn't necessarily feel that pressure, but some of my mom's friends who, you know, I didn't necessarily spend a lot of time with before then. I felt like I needed to care for them.

- Molly Huffman

And so it was helpful to have them, but then also helpful to have time without them so that I could just let the tears fall.

- Liesel Mertes

Yeah. And as you were aware of this need to process your grief, what were some of the things that were especially helpful for you in that journey of, you know, just walking with this hard reality being like internally to to make space for that sadness?

- Molly Huffman

1. I think. Being honest about my anger and my questions about it. I grew up in a very faith filled family and, you know, as often under, under the thought of, you know, be joyful, always give thanks in all circumstances. And I think that we can be joyful and give thanks in all circumstances once we've been honest about our pain. And so this time gave me.

- Molly Huffman

I was able to. I learned to pray honestly: the doubt and the questions and the anger and believing that that this God that I had believed in, you know, that he could handle all of that, too, gave me such a space to to be able to process the grief. Honestly.

- Liesel Mertes

Was that something that you had someone invite you into or you read a book or it was just the overflow of where you were at? Because sometimes there's this element of finding permission out of out of a context that didn't really have space for that. How did you how were you able to accept that that was OK for you to do?

- Molly Huffman

Two things. I had a couple friends who would say things like, like Molly, I would be angry, too, you know, and just validated the feeling or some other friends would say it's okay for you to be angry about this to God. You know, like to give the permission.

- Molly Huffman

The other thing that was really helpful to me was. Again, going up in church, I know there were these ways that we prayed as children. Like confession or praising God. But what I hadn't learned how to do was lament. And so during that time I started coming across passages in the Bible where these. Men and women of faith and even Jesus himself would lament, know, God, why have you forsaken me?

- Molly Huffman

And so seeing that and, and seeing this pattern and this permission to lament allowed me to process the grief. I also found different counselors over that time who were great at helping me process and allowing me to grieve as well. So there were there were so many parts. They were helpful. Yeah.

- Liesel Mertes

Well, then. That's face of a community of people, whether it was friends or counselors, to be able to, yes, allow you to feel your feelings and not have to suppress them.

- Liesel Mertes

I I have found in the work that I do in my own experience that grief can feel so profoundly isolating because there's no one who who knows the exact dimensionality of your grief and and how even it changes throughout a day. And that particularly with the loss of children or their sickness, that that that can be something that can be hard in in partners or a couple those moments where you are grieving differently than your partner. Did you run into that as Tage was sickening and declining?

- Molly Huffman

Yes. My husband tended to run toward work and and busyness and and so he was away from the house a lot. So being stuck at the house, I tended to run toward my girlfriends and family members who could come by. And so we definitely grieved differently.

- Molly Huffman

We we did go on a grief retreat. Together. And this was after staged a yes after Tage died. And, you know, worked on processing it together and. And. Really there I felt a lot of of hope leaving that weekend. But.

- Molly Huffman

Ultimately, we were not able to turn toward each other. And, and he ended up filing for divorce a year after Tage died.

- Liesel Mertes

So. These are. A number of losses from the life that you were moving into two years previous as you were pregnant and expecting stage. What was going on was that. How did that feel? It seems like just so many losses. One on top of the other.

- Molly Huffman

It was I. I think by the you know, after a year after Tage died, I had processed so much that by the time my husband left, I, I was I was definitely anxious and really struggling at that point. But then there was this little bit of just, a I had to laugh and maybe that was all I could do to keep from drowning, but it was just like, are you kidding me? Like this, too.

- Molly Huffman

This is unreal. You like this. This can't happen to people this much loss. But one day at a time, one counseling appointment at a time, one walk with a friend at a time. You know, I here I am and. And life is good now. So it was so, so much loss. And I still I miss my mom, like, all the time. And I miss Tage.

- Molly Huffman

And, you know, so those losses have not gone away but I have. Learned to live with them. I just picture the wound is not open anymore. There's a scar. And I'll never forget.

- Molly Huffman

But I also and as I explain in in the book, I like this version of me better. All the things that loss and grief taught me.

- Liesel Mertes

Tell me more. Tell me more about that. What? How is this version of you different than 23 year old Molly?

- Molly Huffman

I would say and I don't want any of this to sound like I'm puffing myself up, you know. But I can see when I look at 23 year old version of Molly versus now just that, I I have more compassion for people, you know. Twenty three year old Molly was all about herself and what she could get and what she wanted. I

- Molly Huffman

My values are different. As far as what used to be important is no longer important. The things that I, that I think I need to make me happy. I don't need those things anymore. You know, as far as material things or.

Per. I don't know. I'm trying think what else it could be, but. And

- Molly Huffman

I think this version of me is just more authentic. I, I am I feel more that I am who I was created to be. Now I know who I am. And I'm just much more grateful.

- Liesel Mertes

Thank you for sharing that. Do you do you find so with with a number of losses, you know, and to specifically related to bringing children into the world? Did your experience can also tip into feeling yourself as more fearful or anxious? You know, even starting a new marriage with your husband stepping into has. Has there been a shadow of what if everything falls apart again for you? Yes.

- Liesel Mertes

Amen. So I am how have you lived within that?

- Molly Huffman

Well, so the good news is I'm now remarried to my husband guy and we have two stepdaughters.

- Molly Huffman

Well, I have to say, barters his daughters and we have our son, Mac, who's one and a half. And

- Molly Huffman

so two major moments in my life where they there was a crossroads. I remember getting married to Guy and and thinking, how do I do this again when my first marriage failed. But I think this time with marriage, I hold it loosely. I don't need the marriage to complete me or to fulfill me. Instead, I get to just enjoy guy as a gift that I've been given.

- Molly Huffman

And it's so interesting because, you know, my first husband wanted out and and that was a huge fear of mine for so long that that, you know, someone would leave. But I saw OK. So the worst thing happened. He left and I'm OK. I was held it and so I know. You know, I've joked with go out with guy like if you want to leave, you can't. Like, I. I'm not going to, too.

- Molly Huffman

I'm not. I keep you here if you don't want to be here, you know, and honestly, that that opens up such a freedom. And I think for me, a more genuine love for this person knowing that I don't need to control them. And I can just enjoy it for what it is.

- Molly Huffman

And then when our son Mac was born in the hospital, I actually had him like a PTSD moment hearing him cry for the first time because I hadn't heard my baby cry since stage right before Tage died.

- Molly Huffman

And so there have been some moments like that where all of a sudden, you know, the fear and the anxiety can come rushing back in or, you know, in quiet moments by myself. There are these questions in my mind of, well, what if what if he dies, too? And I think it's important for us to to take that question and say, OK, what if what if. And you know, what I've learned through all of this is that I will be OK if if Mac dies, it will be treacherous and grievous and it will take some time and it will be hard and I will be OK.

- Molly Huffman

And. And, you know, having those realizations for both of those relationships has allowed me to live in such freedom. And I think sometimes, you know, we fear, well, what if this worst thing could happen? And literally, my three biggest fears happened to me within a matter of seven years. And. The thing is, if we lean into it and. Get help and admit that we can't do it in seek our friends and seek counselors and.

- Molly Huffman

And, you know, in my belief, see, God like you, he will not let you fall in. And so so that's what I live with now.

- Liesel Mertes

Can you tell me a little bit more? You know, if someone is listening to this and to hear you able to say, I will be OK, they might think, well, what does OK mean? Does that mean just that you're still alive? Like, is that OK? What does being OK, tell me more about that and what that has meant for you being okay?

- Molly Huffman

Now, being in a place where I can say I will be OK is for me. Being able to acknowledge the loss and that there is still pain there. I still miss the people that I've lost, I miss parts of my former life where I lived and who I lived near. But, I also. I've seen that. We can we can still live with that pain, but it doesn't consume us. And there is still. Hope and joy and beauty after loss. And I think sometimes we do. We have a choice.

- Molly Huffman

I remember a specific moment that I write about in the book where I had to decide what path I was going to take. And one path would lead me to bitterness. And I have seen people who took that path after loss.

- Molly Huffman

And and I believe the other path leads to life. When, if we, if we can choose to do the work and the wrestling in the midst of our pain and and just cling. Then. I really I really have experienced that. You know, our our biggest fears coming true do not have to they knock us down. They knock us down profoundly, but they don't have to destroy us.

- Liesel Mertes

Thank you for sharing that. I think that's that's helpful. Sometimes you've had a diversity of types of losses. Sometimes when people are trying to be helpful in the midst of that, they say or do things that are not that helpful. What are some of the least helpful things that people offered to you?

- Liesel Mertes

You just say, oh, my gosh, like you might want to be helpful, but please don't do this. Yes.

- Molly Huffman

Well. So after Tage died, I had thought that I was going to be staying home, you know, for a long time, raising stage in whatever siblings might come after him.

- Molly Huffman

And so instead, my counselor at the time told me, Molly need to go back to work. You can't just sit around your house all day and. I was so mad that he said that, but it turned out to be so true, and so I went back in to the elementary school as a teacher and. I found there that that.

- Molly Huffman

Some people were so helpful in that they would leave little notes on my desk for me to see when I got there in the morning or, you know, if I'd stepped out.

- Molly Huffman

Or they would just offer a hug. Or little gifts, you know, just things to let you know. Even if we weren't, they weren't my closest co-workers. But but just offering acknowledgement in whatever way they felt comfortable. The thing I would say most of the teachers were amazing. They really, really were.

- Molly Huffman

But I know sometimes, you know, we get wrapped up, sometimes caught up in what do I say? And I think what's important for us to know is that nothing that we could say to someone who's grieving in our workplace or anywhere is going to fix it so we can take the pressure off ourselves that we don't have to find the perfect words. Sometimes less is better. You know, just. I'm glad you're back, Molly. I am so sorry. May I give you a hug? You know, simple.

- Molly Huffman

Keep it simple. But what's not helpful? What were phrases like? Well, at least, you know, you can be here now. Dot, dot, dot. You know, putting that phrase at least, you know, whatever follows that is not helpful. And, you know, it minimizes the pain. And I know that sometimes we all do that from. A feeling of feeling awkward or not knowing what to say. But. But it's still not good.

- Molly Huffman

That was not helpful.

- Liesel Mertes

Yeah, exactly. I'd do it. Yes. When we when we. Because I know that even though I really care about it, I can still, like you can spin into these just ingrained behaviors or you feel like you're just grasping at words.

But that's the purpose. Now, don't do that. Yeah, helpful.

- Liesel Mertes

Well, your book your book is exciting. Does it? This is this is a question from someone else who, you know, right in some ways, you know, I I write my own journey with Mercy. I don't know to what end or what I'll do with it, but there could be a sense of like, man like this journey is still unfolding. I'm still changing within it.

- Liesel Mertes

Does it feel like a like an important like flag in the sand to have put out a book on it? Did that feel like. Yes, I have something to say. And this is it. Is there a sense of like, oh, but my story is still unfolding with this. Tell me, just as a writer, what that has been like to get something out there.

- Molly Huffman

Well, I started writing after my mom died. And so this whole journey of loss is is reflective. Of writing for me in in my. You know, I didn't write really before my mom died, and I thought I was going to write a book about losing a parent. And then all of a sudden, you know, there was more loss and more lesson. And so I never felt like it was time to put it. On paper. But I had a blog while Tage was sick, it started as a Caring Bridge when we were in the hospital, but I couldn't help but kind of write.

- Molly Huffman

In story form, because that's just what I like to do and. And so after we were out of the hospital, some people were like, well, will you keep writing about all of this? And so we started a blog.

- Molly Huffman

And. So I always thought that it might be neat to write a book someday. And then when I met my husband Guy, I just sense that that particular chapter of life and those losses. I wanted that, too, to not be behind me as in to never think of it again. But I wanted a marker that, OK, here was that incredible season of life and what happened and what I learned.

- Molly Huffman

And now I'm going to turn the corner here and see what's next, because I'm sure I'm not done writing and I'm sure I know my story and the listener story. No one story is over, you know. But but it it does feel really nice to just. Like you said, plant a flag. Like, let there be a marker from that season of loss and pain. And now moving into this new season, which I'm sure we'll have loss and pain because that just seems to be life.

- Molly Huffman

But but I am excited to get to share this book with the world may hopefully be with a little more space in between the losses.

- Liesel Mertes

Right. I can feel for myself when I hit 30. I had friends around me who were like thirties, so old. So I was like 30. Feels just right. I lived a heck of a lot of life in my 20s, 30s. Slow down a little bit. Yes. My hope. Yes. Grief.

- Liesel Mertes

If someone is listening and they say, I absolutely want to get this book, where is it available and where should they go?

- Molly Huffman

It is currently available on Amazon. I believe that the distribution will be wider soon. But for now, I would just say go to Amazon.

- Molly Huffman

And I know that there is a little bit of a backup with ordering, you know, because of COVID.

- Liesel Mertes

But and I will include a link in the show note. You can also go there. And it's great because you're already getting a ton of your stuff from Amazon. So you just add it on with your toilet paper.

- Molly Huffman

Exactly. Easy peasy. One click.

Liesel Mertes

You're also a speaker. Tell us a little bit about people who would maybe want to know more or have you for an event. Sure. What kinds of speaking do you do?

- Molly Huffman

I love speaking to groups. I have spoken to women's events, college events, youth group events. I've spoken at churches and done even just a writing talk one time. So I would love to to be invited to speak to any group. I love to encourage.

- Liesel Mertes

So what is the best way for people to be in touch with you?

[00:46:36.590] - Molly Huffman

My Web site. MollyHuffman.com. And there is a contact button.

- Liesel Mertes

Perfect. Molly, thank you.

MUSICAL TRANSITION

Here are three take-aways from my conversation with Molly

• If you know someone that is in an overwhelming, isolating season (particularly with a small child) it can be really helpful to make a schedule of support.Molly's friends made sure that she had someone with her….IF she wanted to and they gave her space to cancel at any time. This sort of consistent, responsive, flexible support can be deeply meaningful.
• Molly noted, "Nothing you do or say will ultimately fix the person that is grieving" so release yourself from the pressure of getting it perfect.Molly appreciated gifts, a hug, and the small gestures of people moving towards her.
• Grief can and often will cause you to question what seemed like unshakeable beliefs.As Molly grew in her practice of faith and her ways of prayer, she benefitted from friends that encouraged her to be open and honest in her questions. And this open, honest engagement is so important for faith and for life. Avoiding or stuffing unwieldy emotions is toxic, what we resist persists.

OUTRO

Link to The Moon is Round: https://www.amazon.com/Moon-Round-Story-Extraordinary-Grief/dp/B089D34VT6/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=the+moon+Is+round&qid=1591579462&sr=8-1

Molly's Website: mollyhuffman.com

- Barry Hoyer

All of my friends have kind of treated this is like the loss of a husband or a wife, like it has the exact same gravity. Yeah. Work, it's. It's an interesting conversation at work. My my V.P. is also gay, and we're roughly the same age and we've started an LGBTQ employee resource group. So my name is very out there in the company as being the leader of this group. And so it's definitely not an aspect of myself that I've ever felt the need to hide at work. Quite a few people showed up to his memorial service from work and so was a bit of a validation where people they didn't even necessarily consider myself that close to. Still felt compelled to show up and recognized how profound the loss was

INTRO

Today, I am talking with Barry Hoyer. Barry works for DISH Network and lives in Denver with his two dogs, who have grown rather needy due to his constant, COVID-19 presence.

- Barry Hoyer

I've I've been with them all day, which I think is part of the part of the problem that they're getting accustom and they're like, we're just so used to having you here.

Last year, Barry was also living with AJ, the love of his life who was killed, suddenly, by a drunk driver. We will explore his love and his loss in today's episode. But first, a brief word from our sponsors.

We are sponsored today by Fullstack PEO. Fullstack provides turnkey benefits for entrepreneurs and small businesses. They have a top-notch staff that I genuinely enjoy interacting with.

We are also sponsored by Handl with Care consulting, offering targeted, impactful sessions to help your staff survive, stabilize, and thrive in the midst of COVID-19.

I met Barry during my second year of my MBA in Bloomington. He was as first year, part of the GLOBASE program where we traveled to Accra, Ghana to consult with emerging entrepreneurs. We went on morning runs through the streets of Accra together. Barry is warm and witty with a quick laugh.

- Liesel Mertes

So tell me a little bit more about A.J., what were some of your absolutely favorite, most delightful things about him?

- Barry Hoyer

Oh, my God. The way he laughed when he was truly I don't know what the right word is touched by something or found something particularly funny.

- Barry Hoyer

He had this different laugh that would come out that just let you know that it wasn't a reaction for the sake of a reaction. It was true.

- Barry Hoyer

I'm never going to forget that laugh. He also had this way of like when things were stressful at work or when I'd had a bad day, like he would just kind of put his arms around me and I could put my head on the shoulder. And he had just this way of saying, oh, I know. I'm sorry. Yeah, it was very, very comforting.

- Liesel Mertes

Did he have any particularly endearing, quirky things that he did?

- Barry Hoyer

Oh, my goodness. This is. He's gonna hate that I mentioned this, especially in a recorded situation when he was growing up. He grew up. He was born and raised.

- Barry Hoyer

Well, grew up for the first eight years in Southern California. Then his family moved to Indiana. And somewhere along the way, he had befriended a Puerto Rican family. And he'd be learning Spanish, and so he just continued studying Spanish in college. And next thing you know, him being Puerto Rican became part of his ancestry.

- Barry Hoyer

So, so much of the point that when I met him, I thought he was Puerto Rican because he told me he was Puerto Rican.

- Barry Hoyer

All of our friends thought he was Puerto Rican. And even when he spoke Spanish, it was with a very, very heavy Puerto Rican accent. There was nothing Puerto Rican about him. Dean assumed Puerto Rican identity. It's kind of like the thing that, like people are still like, I can't believe he wasn't Puerto Rican.

- Barry Hoyer

Shortly after the exit happened, like two days later, his mom and stepdad came out to help with arrangements and just to, you know, handle everything with me.

- Barry Hoyer

And I had a bunch of friends over one night just kind of needing a sense of community. And his mom and stepdad were there and his biological father was there. And there might have been a little bit of wine consumed over the course of the night. But his mom basically outed him as not being Puerto Rican.

- Barry Hoyer

She told us this story that she had gone to softball practice to watch his younger sister play softball. And one of the other moms of one of the girls on the team came up and was like, Oh, your ages, mom.

- Barry Hoyer

I didn't know your husband was Puerto Rican. She was just like. Neither did I. And that's what she that everyone in the room.

- Barry Hoyer

And she was like, I don't care how mad he gets at me for this. He wasn't Puerto Rican. He was a white boy.

- Liesel Mertes

May it be known.

- Barry Hoyer

Yeah, it was going it was one of those moments of levity that was severely needed. Yes. In the midst of all of that.

- Liesel Mertes

And how long ago did you and A.J. first meet?

- Barry Hoyer

We met a little over six years ago.

- Liesel Mertes

1. And were you drawn to each other quickly and did you know it was fairly intense?

- Barry Hoyer

We met and we met the old fashioned way. We met at a party. A party almost didn't go to I was relatively new to Denver, I'd been in Denver for five months. And I didn't. I almost didn't go to this party. I didn't. I don't generally enjoy showing up places by myself. And I knew there were going to be a lot of people and, you know, brand new, loud social situation. I almost stayed home, but I end up going and had a great time.

- Barry Hoyer

And about two hours after I got there, I might have had a little bit to drink that night. And I shouted at one of our other friends in Spanish to make me a drink. And then this handsome stranger walked up to me. And in Spanish aska, Oh, so you speak Spanish. And then we just started talking for the rest of the night. And you would have never known that there was anybody else in the room. It was just very intense.

- Barry Hoyer

A grew very quickly. It was just one those things they had never felt so sure about. And so, you know, the next morning, I would like everybody, a bunch of you will end up staying at the house just because it was that kind of party and those kind of friends. So this morning, AJ's waking up and helping clean up an. I was still relatively new. So, like one of my friends, I was like, man, what's your phone number again?

- Barry Hoyer

So I was telling him my phone number. And then AJ pulls out his phone and basically said, wait. You start over again. I was like, oh, I see where this is going. And we're pretty much inseparable after that.

Last year, Barry and AJ traveled to Europe for 11 days. They got a great deal on airfare and went to Spain.

- Liesel Mertes

Yeah. Was there a city that particularly stood out? They said this was just like the best day.

- Barry Hoyer

Oh, man, I'm glad you asked. He had been kind of obsessed with Spanish culture, and he really wanted to see the city of Granada. It's in the south of Spain. And so I figured out a way to fit it in and make it work. And that was probably was definitely his most memorable stop on the trip. So much so that he felt that we should move there. Mm hmm.

- Barry Hoyer

But we had this really great AirBnB that was literally right across there's a little river. And we were right across this little river from the Colomba. So we had a little Juliet balcony off of the apartment that we rented. And it had just the most incredible view of the Illawarra, a daytime. And then that night, we had found a bottle of wine and sat on a little balcony and had a glass of wine and watch the kind of sunset behind.

- Barry Hoyer

And D'Alemberte lit up at night. Mm hmm. And it was just kind of really I don't know. I didn't realize it at the time. How profound of a moment it would be. But it was just kind of incredible to be in this ancient setting, in this beautiful space and just be able to get to share such a view of an incredible piece of history with the person that I thought I was going to spend the rest of my life with.

- Liesel Mertes

And. What was that? Was it even when you got the news?

- Barry Hoyer

It was the next morning I had I had to work on that. And so I stayed up late that night and. I got home from my work event somewhere between 10 and 11. And then around one o'clock in the morning, I woke up and he wasn't home. And so I texted him and. Didn't hear anything. And but the tax, because we both have iPhones.

- Barry Hoyer

I can see the, the message was being delivered. So I knew that it was going through, but I knew that he wasn't responding, so I kind of texted for an hour, try to figure out what to do next. And then when that didn't happen. We need to respond. I started calling and I probably called 70 something times and it went straight to voicemail. That's when I started to get really concerned.

- Barry Hoyer

Yeah. And then I started calling every emergency room in the Denver metro area. I started calling every police station to see if anybody could tell me anything and nobody could tell me anything that had happened.

- Barry Hoyer

So I had kind of this false sense of security. Like if nobody is telling me anything, then everything must be OK. And then the next morning, we know and later that morning, I guess I hadn't heard anything by 10 o'clock and nobody was telling me anything and I was extremely panicked. I went to the local police station to file a missing persons report. And then after about forty five minutes of waiting, a police officer told me what had happened.

- Liesel Mertes

What, what a horrible stretch of time. I mean, I just imagine that felt maddening that this cascade of not knowing what had happened.

- Barry Hoyer

There's a lot I don't remember after getting the news, but from the moment when I first was worried, when I found out what happened, I can tell you what every minute was like.

- Liesel Mertes

Yeah. And what was the news that you received about what had happened to AJ?

- Barry Hoyer

An officer took me into a separate room and told me that there had been an accident involving an under the influence driver. And that he didn't survive. The AJC did interview A.J. did not survive.

- Liesel Mertes

What I mean, you mentioned that there's a lot that you don't remember. What are some of the emotions that accompany that sort of unexpected and devastating news?

- Barry Hoyer

To be completely honest, I kind of went to business mode. Yeah, and it was such a shock that I didn't have time to really process what had happened. It was more I need to get a hold of his mom. I need to talk to his family. I need to let our close friends know what happened. Where do I start? How do I figure this out? And they got pretty overwhelmed. And then they called two of our closest friends.

- Barry Hoyer

And told them what happened, and then they drove to the police station immediately to to come get me. Yeah, and they got home and it was just really weird walking into the space they had shared with somebody for so many years. Is everything felt different when I walked in? Mm hmm. And. That was kind of the moment where I ended up, I stayed with friends for the first couple nights. And it was just it was kind of a mix of disbelief because it was so sudden.

All right.

- Barry Hoyer

Our last real conversation that we had that day was about when the air conditioning unit was going to be repaired. Such trivial conversation on one hand, like I would have loved for our last conversation to have been something meaningful where, you know, we talked about all of our future plans and how much we loved each other and how great life was and all the sunshine and roses aspect. But on the other hand, our last conversation, the last time that we spoke was about something so, just, everyday life, the stuff that every couple deals with and. I had no way of knowing that, you know.

- Barry Hoyer

Like, I beat myself up a little bit more sometimes about that, if I had known, if I had any way of knowing that that was going to be our last conversation. I camera if I said I love you before I hung up. I'm sure I did. But it would be nice to really remember for sure if those were my last actual words to him.

- Liesel Mertes

Right. Well, it just highlights exactly what you've said, that this was such an unexpected shock. You know, I am, I think. The immediacy of grief. You know, you talked about kind of switching in business mode. I can resonate with that. Because for me, when I receive hard news, I feel like I feel like where my mind and emotions very naturally go is OK. What is the next thing that needs to be done as a result of this?

- Liesel Mertes

For me, oftentimes afterwards I can find that my emotions can catch up to me quite suddenly and unexpectedly. Whether that is a day or two or a week later. Did you find that something similar happened for you?

- Liesel Mertes

Is there a point where the emotional weight of the moment you felt like caught up with you?

- Barry Hoyer

They're. Gosh, What's the best way to answer that? My mom, my brother and my sister in law came out immediately. To be with me and to be there for the service, and I kind of felt that as long as I had somebody there to take care of, you know, here were people that were guests in my home, even though they're family.

- Barry Hoyer

But I still had an obligation to take care of people and I still had responsibilities to others in that kind of. Helped me stay in business mode and get through what I needed to get through in Denver.

- Barry Hoyer

And so there wasn't a real. I feel like I was just kind of numb. I either had something to do or I had nothing to do with it when I had nothing to do. I just didn't want to think about anything.

- Barry Hoyer

I took some time off from work, and so my brother had to fly home to get back to work. But my sister in law and mom and I drove out back to California with the dogs. And so I kind of felt like I was responsible for my brother's wife. I was responsible for my mom. I was responsible for getting all of us back to California safely. And then so I just stayed in that mindset that I had a job to do and I could not experience anything other than the responsibility of that job until I got to where we were going. Right.

- Barry Hoyer

And then once I got to my parents house. I'm pretty sure I turned into some combination of a five year old and a 13 year old and a 30 something diva, depending on kind of what moment of the day it was.

- Liesel Mertes

Right. And they did. I'm sorry. What did that what did the five year old version look like for people who have not encountered traumatic grief? What did you find yourself feeling or doing?

- Barry Hoyer

My mom and I have always been extremely close. And I've got probably the most caring mother in the world. I know everybody should probably through it isn't feel that everybody should feel that, but I hope everybody experiences some level of that. But as much as I love my mom, she wanted to check on me and she was being too much of a mother.

- Barry Hoyer

To the point where I basically was just like, go away. I don't want to talk to you. I want to be by myself. Leave me alone. And just having reactions that after I'd had a little the time to process them, realize that maybe that's not the way you're supposed to talk to your mom. Like, remember that she wants to do what she can. And. But you don't necessarily think about other people's feelings in those moments, you kind of like reverted to a very kind of like primal reaction to where I was overwhelmed.

- Barry Hoyer

And I knew that the if I yelled at somebody or something, then that was my quickest way to let somebody know that I was overwhelmed. Yeah.

- Liesel Mertes

What did how did people respond to you in that in a way that was important, either like, wow, people missed me and they were really harsh with me when I was just expressing myself. Or on the other hand, you know, people did a really great job of weathering that with me.

- Liesel Mertes

What did you find felt important for you?

- Barry Hoyer

In the first couple days, I had some words for my mom that kept resonating in my head. My mom suffered a stillbirth before I was born. And she said one of the things that was most impactful that people had told her. Was simply just, you know, for fear of saying the wrong thing. Just know that you're in my thoughts. And I had a lot of people express very similar sentiments. And that meant the most to me, because I know that everybody wants to feel like they're helping, everybody wants to.

- Barry Hoyer

It feels good to be there for people. It feels good to support people. And everybody wants to contribute to that. But there were just some moments, whereas like, you know what? Great. Thank you. And just had those more like simple. Expressions like that allowed me a chance to not have to talk about what happened, to dwell on what happened, just simply to know that somebody was thinking of me. Yeah.

- Barry Hoyer

When I got back to work, the first couple days were tough and. Somebody on my team told me. Oh, well, you're handling this so well, you're you're holding up so well. And my first reaction was. Involving an expletive. Yeah. That I won't mention here. It just came across as incredibly callous. Mm hmm.

– Liesel Mertes

And I had to remind myself a little bit more about that, because I can picture some people thinking, well, why was that callous?

Barry Hoyer –

It was. It implies that there's some expectation of how you're supposed to kind of readjust to life. And it was like in my head, I was thinking, you know, you have no idea how I'm feeling. I'm trying to hold it together because I'm at work and I don't necessarily want to display a ton of emotions at work.

- Barry Hoyer

And it's all I can do to hold it together. And you're pointing out the fact that I'm holding it together.

- Barry Hoyer

Yeah. It just a day came across as very disingenuous. Mm hmm, yeah. It almost felt like one of those things that you say to somebody in a situation like that when you don't really have anything substantive to say.

- Barry Hoyer

I tried to remind myself that, you know, people meet people where they're at. And this is where this individual happened to be at. And they were trying to say something nice would be encouraging. And they had to just kind of remind myself of that fact and move on before I let myself get frustrated.

- Liesel Mertes

Oh, man. I hear that it can be that global awareness can be this added like mental burden, because not only are you processing your own stuff in your own grief, but suddenly you're having to try to put yourself in somebody else's shoes and think about how they're feeling. And I imagine that can have its own degree of exhaustion when you're just trying to get through a day.

- Barry Hoyer

It can be a lot in that particular sentiment came across as like. This is how you're coming across to me, like it didn't necessarily remove the person from the thought that they wanted to get across.

- Barry Hoyer

I got very much was around their perception of the event.

- Barry Hoyer

I don't know that one still feels a little raw. To be honest, four and a half months later.

- Liesel Mertes

Yeah. Well, I've. I have heard from other people who have been on the receiving end of that comment that sometimes they can place a particular expectation as well, like, oh, you're doing so well. And one could miss your reality. What if you're not actually doing that well? And two, I can set this, I don't know, kind of high bar of like I don't expect to see any weakness from you or to have any bad day because then you suddenly wouldn't be doing quote unquote. Well. And what would that mean? I've spoken with some people that feel like it. Yeah. It just sets a a really unrealistic bar of expectation also.

- Barry Hoyer

Now, that's actually an incredible observation. I hadn't even really stopped to think about that. But soon as you said that, the first part that you hit on was like, no, like, in fact, I'm not doing that well. This is just a show. But the thing that didn't even stop to think about until now is there was some. It makes perfect sense. There's some underlying expectation. Like, oh, OK. So this is what your expectation of me is. And so this is how I have to maintain going forward.

- Liesel Mertes

Yeah. Maybe in a strange sort of way, like, you know, a hundred years ago as women were in corsets and high heels and all of these like kind of ridiculous garments to just hold everything in for appearances sake and be like, oh, you just look so charming and beautiful. And the woman is thinking like, oh, my gosh, I can barely keep this up. And it's just a normal media like non course added in just my normal feet. Like going to just be such a disappointment. So strange parallel. But I could picture something like that. I'd be like, are you kidding me?

- Barry Hoyer

This is no, that's a great analogy.

MUSICAL TRANSITION

- Barry Hoyer

One of the more interesting reactions was when I got back to work. And a colleague who I'm not particularly close with outside of the office, saw me the first day I was back and ran up to me in the middle of the floor and gave me this huge hug and it's kind of loud. I'm so sorry. And I didn't really want that kind of attention drawn to me. Yeah. Again, I think this person had great intentions. I don't think that they were coming from a disingenuous place. It was just a bit more than I cared for at work. Yeah.

- Liesel Mertes

Because when that happened, what were you thinking in real time?

- Barry Hoyer

I was thinking, we can talk later, but please make this stop. Because she basically wanted to have a conversation that I did not want to have in that moment. Yeah.

- Liesel Mertes

I think that you mentioned and not everyone is able to say this, but that actually there's some things that your workplaces done really well. What were some of those things that felt meaningful to you?

- Barry Hoyer

I'm very, very fortunate in that. I have both of my my first level manager and my V.P.. Are just incredible people to start with. I have a closer relationship with both of them than I have with any other manager in the past. So as soon as I called my mom and a few close friends, the next person I called was my manager just to let her know what had happened. And it's funny looking back at it now, it's actually asked if it was OK if I didn't come into work the following Monday and this was a Saturday that I'd found everything out.

- Barry Hoyer

And. I think she was in shock and she was fairly blown away. And. When she basically told me to worry about anything, we're going to handle everything you just focus on, like what you need to focus on.

- Barry Hoyer

And there were a handful of times where she actually cried with me on the phone and I could tell that she truly could empathize with what I was dealing with and definitely had her own level of sadness for the situation that I was experiencing.

- Barry Hoyer

So my no, my work kind of went above and beyond. A friend of mine at work that works in H.R. was trying to be helpful and had sent me a phone number to call for a direct line. Basically saying that after bereavements up, if I need more time out of the office, you know, just like here's a phone number, you can call our leaves team.

- Barry Hoyer

And then my head was my immediate thought was OK. So I just lost the love of my life. And now I probably don't wanna go back to work. That's probably best for everybody. They don't go back to work right now. But on top of that, I potentially misunderstood what my managers had said. And so now, like just letting the practicalities of everything sit in, half of our income is gone, but our fixed expenses have stayed the same. And now I'm going to not have a paycheck for a little while unless I just go back to work and suck this up.

- Barry Hoyer

And I truly believe that the person that sent me the text was coming from a very caring place. But my manager stepped in and she was like, no, I don't regret that. We're gonna handle everything. I'll bring you your laptop. As far as H.R. is concerned, you're working remotely for the indefinite future. And as far as we are concerned, you're not working at all until you're ready to. So she really extended herself to be able to be creative and not bound by kind of process and bureaucracy in a way that was attuned to you.

- Liesel Mertes

This seemed really important.

- Barry Hoyer

Yeah. It's one of those moments where I'm really extremely grateful that I have such a great relationship with my manager. But they truly believe that management in my department cares so much. That this offer, good offer offers not the right word, but that the same situation would have been extended to anybody.

- Liesel Mertes

Yeah. Go ahead. Sorry. Oh, you're going to just affirm. That's a great testament to, you know, things like that one offs. They are testifying to a culture that has been built in lots of other moments and that in a time of crisis that becomes the overflow like that, the natural overflow is support. So, yeah, I hear how important that is.

- Barry Hoyer

It was great. I even got an e-mail from my CFO telling me to worry about myself and focus on myself first, and that work should be the absolute last thought until it felt like the right time to think about work again.

Yeah, OK.

- Barry Hoyer

One of the more thoughtful responses from work. My company tends to be pretty social, especially around the holiday times, and a few years ago we had a new chief marketing officer that started an agent. We're at a holiday party at another VPC house that night. And our CMO had the opportunity to meet A.J. and chatted with us for a little bit and was very warm and welcoming and truly inquisitive about like, you know, getting to know A.J. and I in turn, got to have a wonderful conversation with his wife. And it was just a fun night. And then after news, it work had spread about what had happened. Our CMO sent me just a really kind email with a few touching notes about, you know, basically acknowledging I didn't know AJ well, but I remember talking with you guys that night.

- Barry Hoyer

It seems like you guys enjoyed a Wonderful Life together and had many adventures. And I'm so sorry that this has happened. You will be in my thoughts and prayers. And it was just very touching in that he remembered specific things that you know about his conversation with AJ and knew more than just his name and that, you know, he and I were together.

- Liesel Mertes

Right. That although he didn't know him deeply. He had taken the time to reflect and remember. And, yeah. Give back to you what he had known and observed.

- Barry Hoyer

Yeah. It was just a very touching moment. Yeah.

- Liesel Mertes

So for someone who has not lost a life partner, what are some of the unexpected challenges or the things that you would say in the months afterwards? Like this was so hard? I never would have known that this would be as hard as it was. Did things catch you off guard?

- Barry Hoyer

The biggest the biggest surprise to me and I don't know if this speaks to my own naivete or if it just truly is one of the things that you don't know until you have to experience it. But I always imagined the stages of grief to be linear. First, you start with anger and then, you know, you kind of progressed through the next five or seven stages. One's a natural progression of the next. And or of the previous, I'm not quite sure how to say that, but I was honestly expecting to move through the stages, kind of like.

- Barry Hoyer

And the straight line. Yes. And even still, there are days where, like. I know what happened. I know they can't change what happened. And I just have to do my best to move forward carrying this new aspect of my life with me.

- Barry Hoyer

And then there are other days where I get so completely angry that I can't focus on anything and have to take a walk to before I can get back to work and be productive. Then I don't know if the anger comes from just given the situation of how his death happened.

- Barry Hoyer

Guys get really mad. And then there are moments where, you know, the next day things feel more calm and I feel like I'm equipped to go through life again. And then all of a sudden you get more information and then you're back to being angry and you're back to being filled with a relative amount of rage. And it just it bounces all over the place.

- Liesel Mertes

There is a particular nuance to your loss in that you're a homosexual man who has lost a partner and society doesn't quite have the same sort of established place for if you lost your head, a heterosexual partner or someone that you had been married to. What has it been like to navigate that dynamic?

- Barry Hoyer

To be completely honest, it hasn't really. Try to find the right words to talk about this. All of it speaks to my friends or if it speaks to kind of where society has gotten to in general.

- Barry Hoyer

But they feel that all of my friends have kind of treated this is like the loss of a husband or a wife, like it has the exact same gravity.

- Barry Hoyer

Yeah. Work, it's. It's an interesting conversation at work. My, my V.P. is also gay, and we're roughly the same age and we've started an LGBTQ employee resource group. So my name is very out there in the company as being the leader of this group. And so it's definitely not an aspect of myself that I've ever felt the need to hide at work.

- Barry Hoyer

Quite a few people showed up to his memorial service from work and so was a bit of a validation where people they didn't even necessarily consider myself that close to. Still felt compelled to show up and recognized how profound the loss was and then didn't really assign like, oh, this could have been, you know, if you were a straight married couple. My sympathy might be deeper. Right.

- Barry Hoyer

I haven't really experienced any of that, but I know that's not necessarily a common perspective that gets told when it comes to loss.

- Liesel Mertes

Right. Well, it sounds like in some ways, again, an overflow of the sort of company culture you were a part of. And the friend and support system that was there, that that didn't have to be an added trauma or pain on top of what was an already incredibly painful experience.

- Barry Hoyer

It's been. They definitely have made it. It's been an easier transition back to work. I kind of have the leeway even still to if I'm having a bad day. You know, just pack up. Take my laptop, go work from somewhere else if I need to. There've been a couple times where I've done that. Where does feel being at work and being around people was just overwhelming. And you can't necessarily predict when this wave of emotions is going to hit.

- Barry Hoyer

And when it happens, my my team has been pretty gracious with its kind of acknowledging, like we're gonna get done. We're not necessarily worried about that, but it's, you know, take care of yourself and feel free to, you know, figure work out how it fits into your life.

- Liesel Mertes

Yeah, you are. You are more important than just the tasks you might accomplish in this given afternoon.

- Barry Hoyer

It's nice to feel that, though, it's nice to feel a validation about.

- Liesel Mertes

Yeah. If you were speaking to listeners who would say I've never had a traumatic loss like that. Is there anything that you would want people to understand about what that's like to go through?

- Barry Hoyer

I would say. Gosh, a lot. But the person experiencing the loss. There'll be moments where they seem relatively composed that they've got to plan for life and you know, that they still have, you know, things to do in a life to live and they're ready to get back out there. But what comes across on the surface is not always a good indication of what lies beneath.

- Barry Hoyer

Mm hmm. And another thing I would encourage listeners to to take away is just kind of I was talking about earlier about how the stages of grief aren't linear and you don't progressed naturally from one to the next. I went out for drinks for trivia night with some friends. About two weeks after I'd gotten back to Denver. And I felt myself having a really good time. To the point where I was laughing Charolette like carefree. And then I started to feel guilty about how great of a time I was having.

- Barry Hoyer

That I shouldn't be allowed to have that much fun this close to such a traumatic event. And then I shut down again. And then for the rest of the night, I kind of like slipped into a place of guilt about being out with people and enjoying life. When A.J. can't. Nia.

- Barry Hoyer

And that's kind of one of the things that just happens, and I'm sure it looks a little bit crazy to the people around you. But just remember to have the compassion that those moments are going to come and they're going to head out of nowhere and. Just, I don't know, offer a kind word and just be be patient.

- Liesel Mertes

Yeah, well, and it's also probably a word to anyone who is going through something like that in their own lives of the importance of patience with oneself in the midst of the journey, which can be its own challenge.

- Barry Hoyer

That's a huge challenge. There are times where that night at the brewery with friends, where I was giving myself a hard time for enjoying the company of my friends, and in retrospect, you know, my gosh, I really shouldn't have been so hard on myself and I should have been a little bit more mindful of giving myself some some leeway, some grace to not always have to have the right thing to say or the right thing to do or, you know, have somebody else's expectations of grief placed upon you.

- Barry Hoyer

Yeah, then you can keep it. Keep going, please. No, they say no, there have been moments where I feel like. I should be. More depressed and I am I should be sadder than I am, I should be crying all the time. And. But I also feel like those are expectations that other people put on somebody that have had a traumatic event like this happen.

– Liesel Mertes

And what happens in private is usually kind of much of a bigger emotional response to what happened than anything I would want to show in public.

- Barry Hoyer

Totally. I mean, I tend to be a pretty private person and I want to have like I was making breakfast one morning as it was five forty five in the morning and I was making scrambled eggs and I was listening to the ninety station and a song by The Cranberries came on and I lost it. Yeah, and I had a solid 30 minutes where I couldn't do anything other than, like, remind myself I had to go through a Wayburn decks and.

- Barry Hoyer

So those things happen. But just because you're not showing it to everybody all the time doesn't mean that they don't happen.

- Liesel Mertes

Are there other things I feel like you've had a lot of really helpful insights and obviously have, you know, for months, isn't isn't that long in there in the scheme of things, but have really been reflective of yourself and of grief in the process. Are there other things that you feel like would be important to add that you didn't get a chance to say?

- Barry Hoyer

I think it's important to find something that makes you happy in life again. I've always enjoyed cycling. And I remember the first time that I went for a ride after I got back to Denver, we had this day in January that hit 72. And it felt like the perfect day to leave work early and go for a long bike ride.

- Barry Hoyer

And it was, you know, off season. I hadn't been riding very much. I only got, I think, twenty five miles in that day. It was a very therapeutic experience. I was able to just shut my brain off and enjoy the scenery around me and enjoy the experience of being on a bike and doing something that I love. That felt good.

- Barry Hoyer

And there's also say. This entire experience has made me kind of very contemplate of my own mortality. And after the accident happened, people were very quick to comment on how A.J. always offered them a smile and was always willing to help out. And so many people came forward, the stories of just saying how when they needed something, whether it was a short term loan or help moving or somebody to go talk with him about what had happened. A.J. was always there and it was just always ready to be a support system for so many people. And I feel like that kind of gave me a sense of purpose to try to carry that forward.

- Barry Hoyer

And just to make sure that I am kind of honoring his legacy by. Being more compassionate, being more willing to help, being, you know, less frequent, to say no. And just always kind of like rethinking if I have a sharp comment to make. Taking an extra second to pause to make sure, is it really worth seeing? Or is this better held inside? All right. I just want to always make sure that positive energy goes out into the world and I don't want to do anything that contributes anything negative to it.

- Liesel Mertes

It is a beautiful movement to carry forward. Yeah, as you honor someone who you love very deeply. Thank you, Barry. I really appreciate the time and being willing to go on to something that's been hard. So thank you. I appreciate it.

- Barry Hoyer

I'm happy to. To talk about what happened in. Hopefully will have an impact on somebody.

MUSICAL TRANSITION

Here are three take-aways from my conversation with Barry…

• Displays of support in the workplace are so important.An email sharing a memory, easing the path with HR, or having spaces to take off early if the days gets too overwhelming. All of these things were deeply impactful for Barry. As was his overall work context, where his presence as a homosexual man was not something that was an aberration or changes how people showed comfort during his time of loss.
• When someone returns to work after a loss, be conservative about big, public shows of comfort.Barry described how uncomfortable it made him to have a casual coworker publicly draw attention to him and to his loss.
• Grief is unpredictable.Barry describes feeling sad and then happy and then guilty for feeling happy. If this is you, know that tumultuous emotions are normal.

Thanks to our sponsors, FullStack PEO and Handle with Care Consulting.

OUTRO

- Seth Morales

Those folks have had their eyes closed to this central, frontline workforce. And I think the lights have turned on and many people are starting to realize that this essential frontline workforce that is delivering packages to your front door, making sure that certain type of food or consumer good products are making it to the grocery store or anyone else's household. It it's a priority and it it matters.

INTRO

We are deep into the COVID-19 quarantine. My thoughts are ranging widely and, a few nights ago, I found myself pondering the spaghetti…all the steps along the way that got it to my front door. As so many parts of our economy have stalled out, there are still workers packaging and delivering all of the goods that are filling our pantries. Workers that drive the trucks and deliver the packages. What is life like for these often under-appreciated front-line workers? And that is what led me to Seth Morales, the CEO of the Morales Group, a company that provides for the staffing needs of warehouses and hubs throughout the USA. Seth shares his insights, gleaned from 15 years of serving front-line workers, as well as his own leadership insights. Before we begin, I want to thank our sponsor, FullStack PEO. Are you a small business owner or entrepreneur? The team at FullStack helps navigate and manage your benefits so you can focus on growing your business. We are also sponsored by Handle with Care Consulting. Connecting with and supporting your people is so important during these upside down times. With sessions on compassion fatigue, workplace empathy, and communication coaching for downsizing, we empower you to create workplace cultures of support and care.

Now, back to our conversation with Seth Morales. In addition to his role as CEO of the Morales Group, Seth serves on the board of the Indiana Latino Institute, St. Vincent's Health System, the Young President's Association, and True U. He is also the husband of Jackie

- Liesel Mertes

When did you meet your wife, Jackie? Was that 10 years ago? Have you known each other a lot longer than that?

- Seth Morales

We've known each other for almost 12 years. We met at work, so we had an office romance scandal.

- Seth Morales

You call it whatever you want, but we we met at work. She was hired in as a business development rep or in sales. And I was on the sales team as well. And you kind of just put two and two together, you know, a month or two into her working. I, I pretty much kind of fell over for her. And we dated maybe two months into her work and at Morales Group. And then I went to my dad and I said, "Hey, Dad," because I work with my dad, we're in a family of business.

- Seth Morales

And I said, "Hey, would you would you be open if I asked Jackie out on the date?" And he gave me the green light. He just said, "Just don't mess it up because this could end up not so, not so great for both parties." And so, so we dated for a year and then we eventually got engaged and then we got married, think nine months later. So, it's been a good working relationship, but it's also just been an awesome partner that I found just at home and on the field.

- Seth Morales

So she's, she's been fantastic.

Jackie and Seth have two sons.

- Seth Morales

Sebastian and Matteo and Sebastian or Sebastian is six, Matteo is three. And they're both quite active: young little guys just doing their thing at home right now. We have two cats, no dogs, no no other pets. And if a gal that helps out around the house, Theresa and I call her Mother Theresa because she's a saint.

- Seth Morales

She's amazing. So that's, that's kind of what fills the household today at Casa Morales.

- Liesel Mertes

And the Morales Group is a family business that you have transitioned into you. The position of CEO this year. Congratulations. And could you tell listeners who don't know what you do? What some of your mission and just place in the ecosystem of business here is?

- Seth Morales

Yeah. Thank you for, for that. Morales Group is a purpose driven company that really, I think. Has its why and place and our why or our mission statement is to build a better future. And we live and breathe that daily, what we do and we do it is, is very similar to a lot of other staff in recruiting companies. So we are a traditional recruiting and temporary agency. So, we provide a lot of different jobs and career paths to folks in the light industrial market.

- Seth Morales

So anything that's manufacturing, e-commerce or logistic space, we provide a lot of staff in that space. But I think, most importantly, Morales Group was was founded along the premise of really trying to build a better future for those who are underserved, who maybe are disenfranchised or need just an opportunity. And those that make ten or twelve or fifteen dollars an hour just need a jumpstart. And they need that voice and that kind of partner to help kind of bridge the gap and provide opportunities.

The Morales Group has been living out that mission for fifteen years. In the local Indianapolis area, they have 2,500-3,000 external teammates and they have been expanding to markets like Dallas, Louisville, and Charlotte.

- Liesel Mertes

So I think that many times, if you haven't had direct exposure to the world in manufacturing or the sorts of places that have these temporary positions, they can be kind of taken for granted or invisible to people. How, how do those positions contribute to the functioning of the American kind of economy in general? Like what infrastructure that most people just have their eyes closed to? Is that providing?

- Seth Morales

That's a really good question. And you mentioned that those folks have had their eyes closed, too. This is central frontline workhorse. And I think the lights have turned on and many people are starting to realize that this essential frontline workforce that is delivering packages to your front door, making sure that certain type of food or consumer good products are making it to the grocery store or anyone else's household. It it's a priority and it, it matters.

The Morales Group is very purposeful in what they call these workers.

- Seth Morales

We call them teammates. We don't call them temps or associates. We call them external and internal teammates. And so kind of an internal corporate staff that that it's in the office. And then we have external teammate that, you know, we've got three to four thousand strong on a weekly basis. And so we're, we're really trying to lift up this workforce.

- Seth Morales

We see. To serving and being a voice for the workforce and not just settling for any job. We want to eventually get him a better job and into a career. And so we call that ABC any job, better job, career. And so we're trying to take them from any job and really try to build a better future for them. And so that's kind of our mission statement.

- Liesel Mertes

So one of your external teammates, can you give me like a like a day in the life of what it's looking like for them right now? Because I imagine that there is you know, if you're maybe even like if you're working on a manufacturing line, you know, can you have six feet of distance?

- Liesel Mertes

Like, what are their concerns as they are going into work every day, which are very different than people who, you know, are staying at home?

- Seth Morales

That's a that's another great question. I think the day in the life of an essential frontline external teammate that works with Morales Group would look like this. They would be working at a first or second shift in an industrial park. And one of our clients that we support is the Wal-Mart may have a large e-commerce center. And so if you're ordering anything from Wal-Mart from an e-commerce standpoint, there's a good chance that our workforce has been in that building helping fulfill those orders and ship those to your front door.

- Seth Morales

But what they do on a day to day basis is, you know, you've got several thousands of people inside a million square feet. And there are some challenges with social distancing. There are concerns about, you know, do you have the right PPE? Are you doing temperature checks if you have a covered case? You know, how long do you shut down for two to scrub and sanitize the facility or the area where you had the positive case.

- Seth Morales

And so, we've seen some turnover with some of our frontline as external teammates that, you know, you might catch one, that somebody's on your shift had a positive case. And there's there's just kind of that word of mouth and it spreads. And so you have some churn there. And you understand that.

- Liesel Mertes

Have the external realities made it more difficult to recruit people for these positions? Because I imagine there's two parts. There's external uncertainty. I could I could get sick if I go out there in the world. But there's also the economic realities that perhaps people are feeling really. You know, this is the option that's available to me and I need food on the table. How are those conversations feeling within your recruiting pipeline?

- Seth Morales

That's well thought out there. You definitely have a two sided reality where there's fear of getting infected.

- Seth Morales

And that's real. And you see turn over and you see a number of external teammates apply. Sign up for the opportunity or the job and then not follow through for whatever reason, whether it's fear or, hey, I don't like I didn't like going on that orientation tour because they're just, you know, the distancing isn't there. They don't have the right PPE on. And so that's a challenge for us. It's real.

- Seth Morales

But there's also that, you know, frontline essential external teammate that definitely has to put food on the table. And often they live, you know, paycheck to paycheck and they can't just work from home because they don't have a skill set right now to land them a gig like that. And so they do need to work. And it's just it's, it's kind of a sad reality. But at the same time, it's also kind of a noble thing to see them helping kind of keep America running, to keep us up and running with our supply chain. So it's it's an interesting space, especially with, you know, the numbers that have come out over the last week with twenty six million people losing their job over the last thirty or forty five days and the unemployment jumping up to close to 20 percent.

- Seth Morales

There's, there's a lot I agree. And it is it really I think it it's staggering. But it's also like, OK, here's here's an opportunity to support, you know, those that maybe do need to work. But at the same time, you got to respect that they're maybe sitting on the sidelines and they're, they're collecting the government stimulus check to offset this period so they can be safe. So it's, it's, it's two sided, but it's a it's a tough kind of situation to be in.

MUSICAL TRANSITION

- Seth Morales

You understand that there's, there's that fear factor. But what we've tried to do is find really good partners that get supporting our external essential teammates. And Wal-Mart is phenomenal at it.

- Seth Morales

And I think there's some other partners that do it really, really well.

- Seth Morales

We have a few that could use some, some improvement, but they, they have a ton of legitimate concerns.

Seth, his Dad, and Jackie have been trying to get a pulse on those legitimate concerns. They set up 15 minute Zoom meetings with their workers, when they are done with a shift or off of work

- Seth Morales

And I think that's mattered because when you when you take the time to just kind of here and listen and let them know that you're supporting and let him know that, you know, it's it's people, then it's products and service and then it's it's profits.

- Liesel Mertes

The phrase people before profits is an evocative one. It sounds really good. I think sometimes people can't embrace that, but not quite know how to actualize that in real time. What are some of the things that you're doing at the Morales Group to live that out lately?

- Seth Morales

I think from a Real-Time standpoint, I think being very, very authentic and truthful and very clear with the way you communicate where you stand as a company, you know, we, we did have to do a round of layoffs at the beginning of March.

- Seth Morales

And that was super difficult because we haven't done that and in many years. And so it's kind of contradictory to this whole, you know, people before profits. But at the end of the day, you have to think of the greater good and you have to think of, you know, the ship not going down, but parting ways with with those folks that, you know, just didn't, didn't make the cut. And that's tough. And when you, you have to share that reality, it's not easy.

- Seth Morales

And I think. In our in our space, I've, I've just been very, very vocal about where we are as a company and tried to give them benchmarks as to if we stay at this point. We should be good if we don't go to this point financially as a company. We're going to be in trouble.

- Seth Morales

And I think just being open about that and not using words that I called weasel words like we might could we should maybe think those words are very kind of corporate speak or very kind of wishy washy.

- Seth Morales

And what, what we're trying to do is communicate often, communicate clear and be just thoughtful with, you know, the way we're at and, and be very vulnerable. I think at the same time, like it is about having to part ways with teammates or talk through people's fears about, hey, my next to go or hey, are we gonna have another round? That's, that's a tough conversation. But I think being very intentional about that communication, doing it often.

- Seth Morales

I've been doing video emails once a week. It's a two-minute video with an update with where we're at instead of a kind of a corporate sounding email.

- Liesel Mertes

So you're demonstrating intentional…by those regular check ins, are you noticing as you're as you're having these calls like common themes or concerns that people are bringing up, has it changed, you know, as the weeks have dragged on or what have you been hearing?

- Seth Morales

The external teammates have definitely you've seen kind of that mental health and that fatigue about, hey, could I get a positive case as we get more and more people inside this manufacturing plant or warehouse, the chances of that going up or are higher.

- Liesel Mertes

You mentioned companies like Wal-Mart. They're doing a really great job of caring for their people. What are some of the things that they're doing that really catch your attention as well? I mean, you're going above and beyond.

- Seth Morales

I mean, I think there's two things that come to my mind. First, there's obviously the, the monetary factor and traditionally being a higher paying wage and painful Indiana. I think they typically pay around seventeen dollars an hour for a warehouse position.

- Seth Morales

That's, that's fairly competitive for that market. They've definitely up their game and they've, they've increased that wage to closer to twenty dollars an hour. I think it's 19 something per hour. And so they've done kind of a like a bonus and a pay increase, which we all know that, you know, pay isn't the only factor, but what they've also done, I think, on a just more sustainable making sure that they're empathetic is they've been really good about lifting up and listening to a lot of the external teammates and these kind of small huddles where they've got, you know, a small group of people and they're doing it daily and they're very proactive with the way they've come up with protocol that clean the facility.

- Seth Morales

I haven't seen a better plan than what Wal-Mart has rolled out, and they're just super aggressive. If there is a case they shut down for two and a half, three days, they clean the entire plant, they bring in these fog machines. They're just they're extremely tedious about how they go, about making sure that that that cleanliness factor is there. So that's been good. So I think, a, they listen they're empathetic with some of these huddles.

- Seth Morales

B, they've got a very stringent plan to clean up. And then C, I think the pay rates have been adjusted to kind of reflect helping kind of compensate for those that are stepping up during this time. So that's what we've seen from them. It's you know, it's, it's not it's not always good when there's still, like challenges. We still have turnover, but they've been a good, I think, partner to step up in this time.

- Liesel Mertes

And without naming names, specific partners, when you think of people within your network, you think man like this is just something that it's, it's not supporting our people out like this is this is a damaging behavior, a way of dealing people. What are some of those problem behaviors that come to mind?

- Seth Morales

We see them very hesitant to shut down operations. We see them dragging their feet on what type of protocol they really like, step up and clean the facility. So there's, there's that just unwillingness to sacrifice the bottom line and focus more on just what's best for the shareholder, not for kind of the human factor.

- Seth Morales

So we do have some partners like that. They've been a little bit of a pain in the butt.

- Liesel Mertes

What would you say for someone, you know, for listeners who, they have never worked in temp work or manufacturing, and they have kind of a just a fuzzy idea of what that might be like.

- Liesel Mertes

What would you want them to know about some of the teammates, whether it's with the Morales Group or, you know, across the country, the people who are keeping America running right now?

- Seth Morales

I think the one thing that comes to my mind that I'd want me to know about our external teammates that are considered temp associates. You know, they, they, too, want to build a better future. And they, too. Don't want to just sit on a couch and collect a check.

- Seth Morales

They, they have aspirations of providing for their family and they really want to find a way to make an impact. A lot of times these folks are unskilled and they are hungry to skill up, but they don't necessarily have that kind of traditional pathway that maybe some of us have been fortunate enough to take advantage of. And so I think they need an advocate. They need a voice.

MUSICIAL TRANSITION

- Seth Morales

We folks support a lot of people from just all over the world who are immigrants or migrants and those that just really want to build a better future and build upon the American dream. Don't get me wrong. I mean, I get our workforce when you when you're in our space. There's, there's challenges with you know, there's, there's baggage.

- Seth Morales

There's, there's just it's a life. But they definitely still want an advocate. They step definitely still have the same desires. They just need more cheerleaders and coaches to lift them up and support them.

- Seth Morales

And so I think just. I would encourage everyone to be a little bit more open to some of the cultural differences that we see with our work force. And then also, I think just being respectful of, hey, this workforce is essential. And, you know, you talk about that, the tagline America runs on Dunkin. Well, I think America runs on, you know, that essential frontline teammate. And I am I am very, very proud.

- Liesel Mertes

If there are listeners right now that we're hearing, maybe they're opening themselves up to imagining the reality of some of these frontline people who are risking a lot to show up each day to help keep things running. And they say, wow, you know, I I want to help support these people. I want to help partner with organizations or come alongside them. Where are some good places for them to go with their their time or their money?

- Seth Morales

I think there's a few ways, you know, I think obviously any type of e-commerce product or anything that's shipped to your front door. Please keep continue to press and click buy and keep those, those orders up and run. And that definitely helps with the overall economy and, and gets our, our teammates kind of active and employed.

- Seth Morales

But I think when we think about how we provide more just, I think, respect and gratitude towards those that are on the front lines.

- Liesel Mertes

Are there any other things that you feel like I'm putting to talk about and what the Morales Group is doing to support people right now that I haven't had a chance to ask you about?

- Seth Morales

I think you've, you've covered a lot of it, but one thing that I would just continue to add upon is just.

- Seth Morales

As those that might be listening today are your leader within an organization. I think there's no better time than now to be human and real and authentic and to really think through this. This is just. What's going on with, with your business and how you can serve in a way that's just decent? This is just a great opportunity.

- Seth Morales

People remember will definitely remember how you made them feel during this time and how you either supported them or didn't. And it's just it's a great opportunity, I think, for leaders to step up and be very authentic and genuine.

- Seth Morales

And, you know, lots of times, especially for people who rise to the level of executive leadership. Vulnerability is not a skill that has been prized in their rise to influence. As you think about what it's like for you to even stand on the brink and think, who am I going to be like? Am I going to be out there and vulnerable in my communication? What like what can get in the way of that? And what are things that you anchor on?

- Seth Morales

Remind yourself of that. Help you push to really embracing a more vulnerable style of leadership. I think about our core values and our core values are be humble, be courageous and be a light and be in a light. Being courageous and being, you know, just showing humility during a time like this. I think all too often I think leaders, you know, have this kind of. Mindset that they have to act and operate in a certain manner and they can't truly be themselves.

- Seth Morales

And about a year and three and I'm an achiever. And there's often times where I catch myself wanting to look the part and achieve and obtain all these great accolades. But at the end of the day, I think what people are really, truly looking for, people that can be trusted, that are authentic about what they share.

MUSICAL TRANSITION

Here are three takeaways from my conversation with Seth

• I want to grow in my appreciation of the hourly workers that are keeping our economy running.They are essential and often overlooked. In cultivating appreciation, start with something basic: maybe pausing to give genuine thanks and a good tip to your Instacart shopper or the delivery person. I hope that this time of need plants seeds of gratitude that continue to bear fruit when our economy is again running at full-steam and these workers could once again fade into the background.
• Communication matters.At the Morales Group, that looks like regular check-ins and avoiding "weasel words". Be clear and be human in your communication. Video communication has the added benefit of truly humanizing your words in a way that email does not.
• As Seth said, people will remember how you treated them.Put a radical focus on cultivating empathy and care…and, as Seth mentioned, this oftentimes means leading with your own vulnerability. What does it look like to be human and vulnerable with the people you interact with today?

Thanks to your sponsors, FullStack PEO and Handle with Care Consulting.

OUTRO

Serena Suh

The whole pandemic impacting our economy and the restaurant industry is a big, big event. But in the end, why is that so catastrophic is because of the ways that restaurant workers and the restaurant industry have not been given safety nets. And it's a bigger issue than the issue itself will not go away once the pandemic goes away. Right. And I think that this is a time when actually it's just an opportunity for us to see the underlying issue and immediate relief, such as advocacy, buying out and checking up on your friends.

Serena Suh

Although things are very important, but there are some long term things that we should pay attention to and get to know, especially if people who for whom restaurants are a big part of our social life and what we like to enjoy.

INTRO

On this episode of the Handle With Care podcast, COVID-19 edition, I am talking to Serena Suh. Serena lives and works in the restaurant industry in Chicago. Or at least she did until the coronavirus struck. Serena's story and perspective is important: as a part of the restaurant industry, she gives voice to the stories of so many. Her story is also important because she is an advocate for meaningful, structural change on behalf of restaurant workers.

Before we begin, I want to thank our sponsor, FullStack PEO. How are you expressing care for your employees during this time of disruption? As health is top of mind, FullStack can helping, especially if you are a small business owner. FullStack PEO helps to manage your member benefits, releasing you to focus your attention on the other parts of running your business.

We are also sponsored by Handle with Care Consulting. Workplace Empathy has never been as important on as wide of a scale as it is now. Handle with Care Consulting offers trainings on compassion fatigue, how to create cultures of care, and communication coaching for downsizing.

Back to the podcast. Serena loves living in Chicago

Serena Suh

I love Chicago because it feels like a small town in a big city. So. In my experience, people smile at you. People ask you how you're doing. You can meet random people on public transportation, which I don't think is the case in a lot of other cities, architecturally beautiful.

Serena is also a photographer and a writer. My first contact with Serena was through a compelling piece she published in Medium , which I read on Facebook. I will include a link to the article in the show notes. Serena is also making a documentary film about restaurant workers in Chicago. She is an eloquent advocate for those affected by restaurant closures and, after reading her post, I knew I wanted her to share with you, the Handlw with Care listening audience.

Serena Suh

And there are some, you know, collective struggles, and I think as someone who studied philosophy and anthropology, I can kind of see those. A bit clearer and clearer, maybe or maybe my attention just goes to some of the social or like social like inconsistencies or maybe, maybe some injustices that I see.

Serena Suh

So I would love to see like reform in the industry or something I'm really passionate about. Especially regarding. Providing employee rights, some kind of standard of living for people.

After graduating from college, Serena went to work for a perfume compounder. But she, ultimately, wanted to move in a direction that was in line with her dreams

- Serena Suh

Being a chef was a dream since I was 10 years old. So I just ended up cold emailing a bunch of shops in Chicago and eventually one took me and I was like cooking at a restaurant in Chicago for about half a year before I joined a restaurant group. And I've been there since. OK. Yeah.

- Liesel Mertes

What is especially in the news cycle and at all of us are looking and seeing our neighborhood restaurants close for someone who has not worked like as a line chef?

- Liesel Mertes

What, what is the what is the daily ness of that like? And is it what would eat? No, we're talking economics a lot.

- Liesel Mertes

Is it hard to get by as a line chef? Are you living like day to day?

- Serena Suh

Yeah, definitely. So like Cook, it's it's really interesting. They're. It is a skills job, so you get better with time and you do get gain more expertise on like, how do you do your job?.

- Serena Suh

Well, and you learn a lot on the job. But. That doesn't really have to do anything with your pay. There's already a standard determine pay and it's basically sub minimum wage. So even if you go to like a Michelin star restaurant, most line cooks are getting just one or two dollars over minimum wage in the city of Chicago.

- Serena Suh

I think the average hourly pay of line cooks is $14 an hour. And that varies with each restaurant group. Like am I allowed to mention specific restaurant groups? Sure. So, for example, Hog Salt is a big restaurant group in Chicago. They're paying their employees around $18 an hour on average. But that really depends on each restaurant group. Each restaurant in and with their capacities are. So mineshafts definitely are living paycheck to paycheck. For my experience. I don't know anyone who's living comfortably.

- Liesel Mertes

So I imagine this is a particular blow to people who already were hanging on with a pretty thin margin.

- Serena Suh

Definitely, definitely. They're, from my experience.

- Serena Suh

When I was working as a line cook and wanting to become a chef. Part of why I. It was because I had too many too much student loans and I just couldn't. I just couldn't live paying student loans and paying rent and finding time even for like a coffee or finding an extra and got me over a cup of coffee a week.

- Serena Suh

I just didn't see a future for myself in one if I continued on that route. I think it's similar for other cuts as well. A lot of folks I know have graduated from or universities and decided to pursue cooking or they want the culinary school. So we're all kind of in the same boat as a lot of other Americans. We all have a student that we all have bills to pay. So having no income definitely takes a toll on everyone in the industry.

- Liesel Mertes

I want to hear more about that. Give me a little background you mentioned. This has been a dream since I was 10. For you, for other people who with these four year degrees of this culinary school background, what did you just love about being in the restaurant business? Tell me some of the joy for me. This is just great moments.

- Serena Suh

Well, what I love about…this is a everyone and I don't want to romanticize or idealize the situation because there are some people who are in the industry because they have no other choice or no skills. But I think that in the best form, people and cooks and chefs that I've known really just love the art of hospitality and bringing people joy in the day to day. And I think there's something so humbling about that, that not my chefs have, have a lot of pride and like big egos, they're kind of known for that.

- Serena Suh

But I think at the end of the day, they really do love feeding people and kind of wowing people and showing people a little bit of magic in their day to day. So, for instance, I have a story to tell. Yes, but.

- Serena Suh

So, for instance, when I was working at the restaurant, it's a Michelin star restaurant. So we had it kind of felt like being in the military where every second mattered. And you were going against the clock constantly.

- Serena Suh

And. You don't get time to like rest or time for yourself and you're always stressed.

- Serena Suh

But during service, I could kind of interact with the guests sometimes because you would have to have a couple of minutes during service, especially on a slow day. And it was an open kitchen so I could turn around and talk to guests at the bar. And at the time, we had an orange give me a green almond sorbet, which is essentially a sorbet that was molded into like a like a circle and then had shaved green almonds on top with sugar twirls and saffron coated sugar.

- Serena Suh

And it turned around. I asked one of the guests, like. How he like the desert and turns out that he was he grew up in Lebanon and green almonds are native or indigenous to the Mediterranean area. You saying like, wow, this like totally brought me back to my childhood because when I was younger, I used to eat green almonds off the trees with like salt with my grandparents and my parents. And this was just like a totally different way to experience green almonds.

- Serena Suh

I thought this is like very meaningful to me. And I truly think that it's moments like that that chefs, like, love to elevate and recreate and bring to people. And I find it very. They just run. Yeah, just for a human perspective, I like respect people in hospitality so much because of that. But like without a lot of payoff. But they're willing to give so much of their time and their bodies and their creativity to others and to bringing those embody moments of connection.

- Liesel Mertes

Yeah. And what I hear in a really beautiful way. So, okay, we've had this. These reverberations throughout so many areas of society. Can you tell me? Like what? What did it look like?

I'd like to jump in and say that I recorded this a few weeks ago, but the story and impact is still so important, even if the timeline has shifted.

- Serena Suh

Yeah. There's a huge number of people being affected. I mean, in the United States alone, there's fifteen point six million. I think it's the number that I thought today. People be employed in the restaurant industry and they're all being affected right now. So our company is just one of many, many like restaurant food in the United States and in Chicago and not even restaurant groups, but independent venues being affected. So, yeah. Quickly, just a couple days later, I started getting a bit worried.

- Serena Suh

I started contacting my managers and asking like, hey, can I. Should I accept, expect a layoff so that I can know and be prepared.

- Serena Suh

And even at the time, even three days before I got laid off, my manager was like, probably fine, I'll keep you updated. So it really was. Each day had a new kind of waterfall of events that none of us was prepared for. And then on Sunday, I think on the 15th.

- Serena Suh

You got an email from our ownership saying this is the last thing that we want to do with very heavy, heavy hearts that we're going to furlough everyone in the company except just a few. And they're doing everything that they can right now. But.

- Serena Suh

So was just in a matter of five days where it went from there working from home and then, OK, everyone pays getting cut. Everyone's hours are getting cut and then everyone's being furloughed. So no one's getting paid.

- Liesel Mertes

What a tumultuous couple of days. I imagine that that was just a roller coaster of uncertainty. How has it felt in the aftermath? What are the things that are keeping you up at night?

- Serena Suh

Yeah. Well, I think. I think definitely. For me personally, I'm less worried about myself, in the sense that I think I personally have a decent, a really awesome community that I can rely on. But. There are some people with like families, you know, a lot of people that I knew was in contact with in the restaurant group.

- Serena Suh

I believe over half of the night could even be. A majority of the employees in the restaurant industry are over 35, so it means that it's not just like a transition or transition job for a lot of people. It's a career. It's their main means of income. So people with families work in the service industry. And it's not just like a recent college grad trying to pay rent. You know, it's people with medical bills and tuition and rent and all that stuff in content.

- Serena Suh

So I really worry for those people, especially families, couples who work in the restaurant industry because they can't imagine. Losing both of both incomes in a matter of days and then having to worry about how you're going to support your family.

- Serena Suh

And I also worry for people without. Skills to work other jobs. For instance, people who've always been in the culinary industry since they're like McSteamy, wonderful energy or maybe didn't go to court is going to know how to do anything else like those.

- Serena Suh

Those people need help, like transitioning into different industries that they need. And I don't know if that's an option that that's an available resource right now. Oh, yeah.

- Liesel Mertes

I hear the ripple effects into people's lives. And I think what you said is particularly a learning for me, because sometimes we can think, oh, yeah, you know, people they work in restaurants when they graduated from college or when they're getting their master's degree. But to put numbers to it and give a more realistic face to the people who are being affected.

- Liesel Mertes

When you talk about your support system on a personal level, what has been particularly meaningful to you over the last two weeks as people have supported you and reached out in the midst of physical distancing?

- Serena Suh

Definitely. All I think two things try me saying like, hey, I I've been seeing the news and what's going on in the restaurant industry. I'm so sorry. Please let me know. I can be here for you. That is enough for me. And I suddenly got. It kind of felt like I was standing in front of like an audience. And then I saw my friends and like I was able to put faces on to like who I could rely on at this time.

- Serena Suh

So that was awesome. I've had friends straight up. Just send money. Money. And I didn't ask for it. I did a. I didn't tell anyone that I was financially struggling, but. People who were not this are not being affected by this and who knew that I was in the restaurant industry and I was expressing that like people in the industry is struggling, survive and then decided to act on it like that has been. Really, really touching.

- Serena Suh

And I think that. Action is like the best way to help people right now. And to show that you're there for them, whether that's. Calling your representatives, they're a bunch of small business relief bills that are kind of on the line right now. You think that Illinois is due for one today?

- Liesel Mertes

And yet, Serena, a little bit more because you've, you've thought on a personal level, but you've also published, we'll link the article with this and done some thinking about on a structural level how to allocate support and in the midst of people sitting at home wondering what they should do.

- Liesel Mertes

Let me give you a segue. Tell us more about some of the structural things that are going on.

- Serena Suh

Yes. So as soon as the governor announced that all small businesses were going to be closed, at least for regular service, a bunch of chefs, chef owners in Chicago got together and kind of basically wrote a public letter to the governor asking for support in the form of a payroll tax. Give me to make sure that I got. What they send. Word for word. I doubt. So a large group of independent chefs in Chicago got together and they've asked for immediate support of emergency unemployment benefits to all hourly and salaried workers and to eliminate all payroll tax and to call for rent and loan abatements for workers impacted in the restaurant industry as well as restaurants themselves.

- Serena Suh

That lowers an immediate emergency action, steps that restaurant owners have asked for, at least in Illinois.

As an update, restaurants are now specifically lobbying Congress for legislation to provide relief to their industry, especially after the stop-and-go, limited launch of the PPP Act.

- Serena Suh

And I know there are similar movements in different states as well. There are some restaurant associations, such as in Illinois, the Illinois Restaurant Association, that's working to advocate to Congress to pass business relief bills. So in Illinois, specifically, they're calling for a 350 billion dollars for small business relief and hundred billion dollars for unemployment insurance. And so there's just like.

- Serena Suh

Immediate thing, kind of to put out the fire, essentially, because everyone kind of feels like they're burning right now. Small business owners have very intimate relationships with their employees. I think in good cases. And it really does put emotional and spiritual toll on people to have to let people go knowing that they don't have a safety net.

- Liesel Mertes

Are there other things that come to mind, whether that is ordering takeout or other measures that are helpful right now for people saying, I care. I don't know what to do?

- Serena Suh

For sure. I would say, yeah, if you know someone in the restaurant industry or in the service industry or to be honest. Any client facing industry, because with the virus being a kind of person to person having a person to person spread. Anyone who is in, whether it's hair, entertainment or tourism, all those industries are affected.

- Serena Suh

So if you have a close friend or acquaintance that, you know is stuck in that rut. I would say reaching out for emotional support or possibly the financial support and an understanding that it is difficult for people to ask for financial support in this time. I think that we all kind of. Have. A desire to be self-sustaining, so I think be empathetic to that is very important. And restaurants in particular. For restaurants who are offering carried out.

- Serena Suh

I think it's important to understand that it really is just. To make sure that they can stay open through all of this and that at the end of this pandemic that there will be something to come back to. It's not guaranteed that. That there will be that all restaurants will survive this essentially still carrying out, buying gift cards. Although things are extremely helpful and important, there are some restaurants that have even started GO-FUND Me's for their employees.

– Serena Suh

The whole pandemic impacting our economy and the restaurant industry is a big, big event.

- Serena Suh

But in the end, why is that so catastrophic is because of the ways that restaurant workers and the restaurant industry have not been given safety nets. And it's a bigger issue than the issue itself will not go away once the pandemic goes away. Right. And I think that this is a time when actually it's just an opportunity for us to see the underlying issue and immediate relief, such as advocacy, buying out and checking up on your friends.

- Serena Suh

Although things are very important, but there are some long term things that we should pay attention to and get to know, especially if people who for whom restaurants are a big part of our social life and what we like to enjoy.

- Serena Suh

So I hope that. That there will be a new sense of awareness about these issues. And if the documentary does like flour into something I can, I would love to share. But if it doesn't, I think that's a big message. And the takeaway from this event.

MUSICAL TRANSITION

Here are three take-aways from my conversation with Serena:

• Serena said that "Action is the best way to help people right now."Do you love your favorite local restaurant that has had to close? Do you have a friend that has been impacted by the lay-offs? Take time to call your representative and say that you care about specific legislation that provides funds and reform to the restaurant industry. I know that I have called my representatives multiple times over the last few weeks. After all, that is what they are there for in a representative democracy. And you can read more in Serena's article, which I have linked in the show notes. Taking time to educate yourself about the inequities in the system is its own form of empathy and care.
• Reach out to those that have been affected.Serena said how much a call or a text meant.
• Send money.I appreciate that Serena was really up front about how helpful money has been. Don't know how to spend your relief payment from the government? How about sending some of it to the waitress or chef you know that has been laid off?

Thanks again to our sponsors, Fullstack PEO and Handle with Care Consulting for your support. Together, lets put empathy to work.

OUTRO

Link to Medium Article:

https://medium.com/@serenajsuh/covid-19-outbreak-crisis-in-restaurants-46a5a4d6da08

- David Mills But I promise you, anyone who's hearing this. There are absolutely incredible things about you that other people see that you don't see. So be gentle with yourself. Be gentle with yourself, because there's always gonna be parts of yourself that you personally you don't feel like you can fully with. And there's a lot of ways to address that. Alcohol is one of the ways. There are a lot of other ways, too.

INTRO

This is a special, COVID-19 edition of the Handle with Care podcast. In these unstable times, we are shining light on stories and experiences that will, hopefully, open your perspective to yourself and others.

Today, I am welcoming back a friend of the show, David Mills. David was a guest in the summer of last year. He talked about his journey through divorce, depression, and alcoholism. If you missed the episode, go back and listen after you finish this listening to his one. His reflections are honest and generous and insightful and I've welcomed him back to talk about what it has been like to stay sober and find emotional stability during this time of social isolation.

As you scroll through Facebook or any social media feed, you will see people talking about the necessity of a glass of wine at the end of the day, or in the middle of the day, or with their breakfast. Alcohol stores are classified as an essential business. And, whether it is alcohol or binge watching or baking, we are all finding ways tt cope with our inner monologue during a time of tremendous stress.

Before we jump in, I want to thank our sponsors. FullStak PEO is a friend of the podcast and a great group of people. FullStack provides benefits and support to small businesses and entrepreneurs. In times of uncertainty, making sure your people are taken care of is so essential. FullStack can help. We are also sponsored by Motivosity, an employee-engagement platform that brings fun and gratitude to your workspace.

I interviewed David at the close of March, two weeks into the quarantine. Like so many of you, I was navigating children and work, taking refuge in my closet to record our session.

- Liesel Mertes

Oh, no, no, no. It had been it has been. As we've waited for you, I've had Magnus come in. We been being like, Ada says that she has to practice for basketball, but she doesn't even play basketball. And I just want to be alone. I've been cooped up in the house. I don't want her to be in the yard and be like Magnus. She's seen me hard with you and him be like.

- Liesel Mertes

But I and her being like, really sassy about controlling the music because that's the streaming i-Pad. But the younger kids are watching Disney Plus, which we got for COVID-19. On the other i-Pad. So I just let it say I was not clairvoyant, but merely to do this right. That was already present in the home.

David Mills

Well, either way you come across looking as a pretty good mother.

Liesel Mertes

Oh, well, thank you so much.

– David Mills

Oh, by the way, I hope you don't think that we're going to start without me saying happy birthday. Thank you.

- Liesel Mertes

I was going to start commiserating about my birthday.

- David Mills

1. Well, no, I'm not going to. I'm not going to sing because I don't want to like see or they're subscription numbers plummet

- Liesel Mertes

But it it does feel nice that you wish me happy birthday. And I didn't press record, but I'll probably cut, you know, this sort of like small talk.

- David Mills

But just you know, I think this is about people are coming out more lethal might they might like the idea that I'm cut. Yeah, I'm gonna I'm going to pivot more.

- Liesel Mertes

It is obviously a corona virus birthday. And some people handle that with remarkable, you know, like nonchalance. I am a big birthday person. Like this would be my birthday.

- Liesel Mertes

It's also a global economic social crisis. How are things for you?

- David Mills

Wow. Yeah. Well, things are OK. Life has just slowed down so suddenly, which I think has been hard for all of us to adjust to, and I think what causes the most anxiety when I can name it is just, you know, I like knowing when the end of things are going to be.

- David Mills

I like being able to have a plan.

- David Mills

I think we talked about before and this is a crisis that you can plan for and you can plan contingencies for an. Do you still have no idea when it's gonna end? So that's. That's that's been a key source of anxiety for me and I suspect a lot of other people, too. I know. I will say, you know, it's been.

- David Mills

It's great. It's great to have the technology that we have. It's great to have Zoom. It's great to have face time. It's great to be able to connect with people and have people checking in on you, and especially as you are on the path to sobriety. But nothing can really replace, you know, the the Face-To-Face connections, at least for me.

- David Mills

So it has so you know, but just by the nature of things felt more isolating than usual. And certainly the urge to drink for me, which frankly was for a couple of months pretty low, has been really strong. I think that just left alone in a house with no one else and my own thoughts. It can be a can be a dangerous place for me. So I'm sure we'll talk about some of the things that I tried to do to fight that.

- David Mills

But the urge has been real. And I suspect that that's true for a lot of people, whether they're actively in recovery or maybe I've just been trying to drink less this year, drink more in moderation. But this has been a really trying time for them. Yeah. And I, I really feel the weight of that collectively and individually.

- Liesel Mertes

And today is my birthday. But it is also a noteworthy day for you. Tell us about your six months.

- David Mills

Yeah. So it's a day and sometimes I'm better at tracking this than others. But honestly, like I texted you. You're the first person I told. I was like, oh, yeah. Today's going to be my sixth anniversary. I just looked up on my little app that I have.

- David Mills

So it felt really good. I went for a long walk this morning and some nature preserves not too far from the city.

- David Mills

And I just had a lot of time to reflect and could feel, though, that the first signs of spring, the melting snow, the muddy boots, you know, the snow falling from the branches and the birds were really loud, which I really appreciated.

- David Mills

So it was it was a it was a quiet but meaningful way to celebrate. There have been weeks within the past six months when I have thought about drinking in my heart, I know those are especially dangerous times. But there have also been. A lot of. A lot of shaking hands, a lot of night sweats, a lot of really hard days to stay sober.

- David Mills

So I'm really grateful I don't take it for granted. And, you know, I've, I've made it up further than six months before and fallen off. So I don't I. It was a good reminder and reflection for me this morning to be especially vigilant in these times.

- Liesel Mertes

So, I imagine for people that some of them some of the support, the in-person support systems of things like AA meetings or community touchpoints that now they don't have access to because of this physical destiny distancing that that is a particular gap. Has that been a part of your journey with sobriety and have you felt that gap? Absolutely.

- David Mills

And I will say that at least the Chicago a network has been fantastic about getting Zoom meetings up really quickly like I participated. And a Twelve Steps meeting this morning. I'm going to participate in one tonight. They just e-mail you at the code and you can sign it. It's lovely. And I suspect that that's being replicated in AA chapters all across the country. And if you just go online to your local chapter, you'll get all of that information. But there is.

- David Mills

There is something really powerful about being actually in the room, surrounded by people from all walks of life, all races and religions who share this uniquely common struggle and sing, sing the way that they might be carrying on their shoulders and seeing the way that they lift the weight of other shoulders is something that can't fully be replicated in Zoom. So it's not perfect. But I am really thankful that there are these advances in technology which allow us to have even a meetings remotely.

- David Mills

It's really it's really incredible and I'm sure there's people out there using Zoom for some really like creepy shit.

- David Mills

But it's a good day. It is a good use of that.

- David Mills

So that's been really helpful. You know, I have to just also acknowledge that. I have over the last year been really forced to get better at not isolating. When I'm really depressed, I tend to isolate when I'm really manic. I tend to isolate this because I don't slow down and. That's something that I've had to unlearn over the past year, and what I've learned in the process is that I have a really stacked team of a supportive mother, father, stepmother, siblings, aunts, uncles, cousins and that's just my blood relatives that's not even accounting for the amazing friends that have reached out to me.

- David Mills

And I I I know that everybody's situation is different and not everybody has a whole roster of people that are coming for them and they can come to. But I promise you, there's someone and if there's not you no, I don't know. Reach out to me. Yeah, because the. You'll be grateful not only for not being isolated yourself, but I promise you that the people you love will be able to sleep a lot easier and have a lot less stress in their lives, too.

- Liesel Mertes

I'm hearing and you saying that and talking about your support system is that it's been really meaningful. People who have proactively reached out to you in the midst of a time of a lot of social isolation. What does that look like as they've reached out to you?

- David Mills

You know, it's a lot of text messages. It's a lot of calling me. And if I don't pick up calling me again, it's which I think speaks to the. To the high caliber of people that I have in my life, it's a lot of. Face timing with family or, you know, right now I don't have Atticus with me. He's with his mother and her parents in Wisconsin, which is great because it's far more isolated. And he.

- David Mills

It's a great place for him to be, at least for these couple of weeks. So that's been especially as isolating as well, but yeah, you know, daily face time conversations with Atticus, we're even gonna start doing some workouts together in the morning that him and his mom have been doing and going over some of his lesson plans together. So.

- David Mills

I guess we're all like we're all learning to adapt to the responsibilities that we have. Either vocationally or through the bond of love in new ways, and I'm struggling through that just as much as anyone and I don't have it all figured out. But I do know that the less I isolate, the more likely I am to stay level and to stay sober.

- David Mills

So I would just maybe also add that, you know, when this quarantine kind of started, I was really entering like a pretty manic phase. So it was it was hard for me to have all of this energy and feel like, as I often do, a manic phase. It's like I can just go, go and go without sleep. I have no place to expend that acceptance like my own apartment, which leads to a really thoroughly cleaned and redecorated and redecorated again apartment.

- David Mills

But I can also feel. Like, there's just too much going on inside of me to possibly let out in a single building. You know what I mean? And.

- David Mills

Like, you can go on walks, you can go on rides when it's not snowing.

- David Mills

Just feeling as trapped as I have in the apartment has certainly been the key part of like feeling like this is one of the hardest stretches to make you well and.

- David Mills

You know, so many of us in our different ways are doing our own emotional, psychological recalibration in real time, you know, like hourly of try. What is that?

- Liesel Mertes

I imagine that there are powerful aspects of the things you say to yourself or what you do to build resiliency in the four walls of your apartment. What has that? What have you learned about that conversation with yourself?

- David Mills

That's a good question. Well, you know, I I should say that. One thing that has also helped this just came to mind is that I'm like it. I realize it would be easy for me just to take a few weeks off of therapy right now, but my therapist and I have. Setup Zoom meetings, so you even just today, like a couple hours ago, I was it was, you know, video chatting with my therapist for an hour, and that's something that really helps because, you know, a gives me.

- David Mills

The space to take control over my drinking problem. Therapy is where I can go to get the tools that I need to address the narratives that would tell me that I'm not enough with tell me that.

- David Mills

I'm not going to rise up further than I have that I'm destined to. You know, be losing the fight, those narratives are wrong and therapy is the place where I can talk about the underlying trauma that led to them and feeds them and get to the practical tools that I need to develop a more helpful internal dialogue. One that is reflective of where I've come from, one that's reflective of where I want to go and one that's reflective of my own strengths and honesty without being overly critical of my own weaknesses.

- David Mills

If that makes sense. So for me.

- David Mills

That just speaks these these past two weeks of really just also reinforce in me the need to be in consistent therapy. And. To not just think that a one prong or two-pronged approach is enough. So, yeah, I I that kind of address your question.

- Liesel Mertes

Yeah, it does. Yeah. I appreciate the. Especially confronting that messages of I am not enough. And just to extrapolate all of it. So so you're in like you're in your space. You're feeling overwhelmed by. Anxiety or fear or desperate, you know, all the things that could flood any of us in that moment. You have an awareness of where those thoughts have taken you in the past. What sorts of things are you saying or doing for yourself in those moments where you feel like I'm on the edge of overwhelm here?

- David Mills

Yeah, that's a really good question, and I'm glad you asked that because I actually have an answer for it. Those are my favorite questions.

- David Mills

I used to be like a really avid reader. I would just read anything from the time I was a kid all all growing up. But that's, that's really fallen off. So over the past couple of weeks, I've really like especially when my my brain is truly feels unable to slow down. I guess my immediate thought was like, OK, I'm trapped in this place. My brain can't slow down. Can I put it to use to like spark some creative joy inside of myself or to like gain some knowledge of some kind which might benefit me in some way?

- David Mills

And really, what that ended up looking like is this reading all the books that I have on hand so far, I think I've read just looking at the stack. Now it looks like I've read re-read The Odyssey, read Little Women Again, classic, beautiful, great. Read a book of Irish love poetry. Don't recommend that if you're single and started in on a book called Founding, Founding Mothers and Fathers, which is about. The gender played a role in forming early American society.

- David Mills

Not relevant. Anyways, I've read it. I've read a lot and that's really helped slow my mind down and also provided me a means of escape because like, I can't fully, directly relate to any of the characters in the US. Like, that's it's it's not a world which I inhabit. So. Just like, oh, and the return of Sherlock Holmes is the other one that I read, like, you know, like I don't I don't live in that period of England.

- David Mills

That's a it's a means of escape for me. So that's been that's been a really helpful thing. And then also I've just been toiling away in the woodshop. Just kind of building and sanding and staining for a couple hours a night. And I have to watch myself because it's easy to be out there for four or five hours before you know it. It's like 2:00 in the morning.

- David Mills

But those things have been really helpful. So I guess, you know.

- David Mills

Anything you can do to spark creative joy in yourself or maybe bring a little bit of restoration, whether it's restoration to your mind through the written word or its restoration to know something you're refinishing or something you're building. That can be it can be a really powerful tool, at least for me. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah.

- Liesel Mertes

As you so I I can see the like national data about things like alcohol sales being through the roof right now, which is not inherently bad, but also a sign of how people are funneling these unwieldy feelings of being out of control. What word would you have, particularly for someone who is walking a hard journey of sobriety, or perhaps they're at a point where they're just beginning to take stock and say, I'm drinking quite a lot. What words of insight would you offer?

- David Mills

I don't know if they're different for those two groups or general. I. I'm thinking back before I answer. I'm just thinking back. And like some of the things that like I've. Learned through a and through therapy, and that's, you know, I didn't. The drinking was never the problem. There were. Things underneath of it that made me want to drink, I used drinking to medicate when I was manic to slow my thoughts down. I use it as a motivator.

- David Mills

When I was depressed to get out of bed. I use that in all circumstances to dull and soften and maybe even a race momentarily, the edges and parts of myself.

- David Mills

That felt really unlovable. So I guess what I would say to either of those groups is. Your sobriety. Or your drinking are not the most interesting thing about you. There's so much light and so few. That is not. In any way connected to alcohol. And it can be really easy in these moments when you're trapped. In a place, whether by yourself or with loved ones or with roommates or whoever. To feel a more urgent need to do all the edges of yourself but seem hard to live with.

- David Mills

Either just in isolation or in close proximity to others. You don't need to do that. That's, that's what I would say, you just don't you don't need to. There are ways. To live and to the parts of yourself that you don't love yet. That don't involve doling your census. That involve becoming more and not. Suppressing and becoming less or. Feeling like you can only be free and likable under the influence. And I know that's really easy to say and it's taken me a long time to even begin to live.

- David Mills

But I promise you, anyone who's hearing this. There are absolutely incredible things about you that other people see that you don't see. So be gentle with yourself. Be gentle with yourself, because there's always gonna be parts of yourself that you personally you don't feel like you can fully with. And there's a lot of ways to address that. Alcohol is one of the ways. There are a lot of other ways, too. There's a lot of things you can do.

- David Mills

There's a long there's a long winded answer, I don't know, maybe since it did.

- Liesel Mertes

Thank you. That's a good word, David. I appreciate it. Thank you. Yeah.

- Liesel Mertes

So. Yeah. Any funny things you've discovered about yourself or your habits in the midst of living in isolation? Sure.

- David Mills

I mean, I've I've pretty much known. The type of the type of human I am when it comes to living by myself for a while, but I. Nothing really nothing really, truly funny. But I did have this absolute epiphany. Like nothing I've ever had yesterday as I was doing the dishes, because I have this tendency to absolutely let my sink overflowing before I tackle the dishes. It is the one thing that just like starting it causes me such anxiety.

- David Mills

And then I have this epiphany yesterday and I'm like, if I only had two plates out. And I got rid of my other plates or put them away in stores, but they weren't easy to get to. I would.

- David Mills

The reason I do this because I have like twelve plates, because every time my mother visits she brings more kitchenware, like not to blame my mom.

- David Mills

But thanks mom.

- David Mills

That's that that's a I've also discovered that I. It's, it's nice to have a plant to talk to at least. And I wish I would have. I wish I would have heeded advocacies, many requests to get a cat or something. But I think one positive benefit for Atticus is coming out of this could be a pet.

MUSICAL TRANSITION

- David Mills

It is hard. I will say, you know, not having Atticus there to not have like some living thing depending on me for more than water which is all at once.

- Liesel Mertes

Well and I do like just on the human level. I hear that. I know that being a dad and being a good dad, Atticus is a huge part of who you are. And I imagine that that is its own like sacrifice and sadness right now. So sorry.

- David Mills

Thank you. Thank you. I really appreciate that. All right.

- David Mills

Well, I don't know. I haven't learned anything else really, truly funny about myself. Yeah. Now. I've. I'm kind of sick of myself, actually.

MUSICAL TRANSITION

Here are three reflections after my conversation with David:

• If you know someone that is living with alcoholism or walking a journey of sobriety, reach out and check in with them.Social support is especially important for David…and sometimes people in his support network have to reach out more than once. Practice persistence in your care.
• David has been directing his energy into creative outlets like woodworking and reading books that take him to other places.How can you funnel your feelings into pursuits that are creative and life giving?
• Who you are with alcohol is not the most interesting part about you.There is deep wisdom in this reflection. Whether it is alcohol or another coping mechanism to escaps pain, remember that you are more than that behavior and that there are other ways to address the pain.

Thanks again to our sponsors, FullStack PEO, helping entrepreneurs get back to business by providing benefits and support. And thanks to Motivosity, an employee engagement software system that brings fun and gratitude to your people.

OUTRO

- Matt Mills

You care about their family; you care about each other's success and what you're doing. And you never want to. You never want to see anyone suffer, especially from things out of their control. As far as our, personally, with my business, I was telling them the first person and not get paid, it's gonna be me or will be me or is me. So as far as the restaurants go, it's just such a tenuous thing.

- Liesel Mertes

Hi, this is Liesel with the Handle with Care podcast. Perhaps you are sitting at home listening…because so many of us are sitting at home in this time of COVID-19. Or maybe you are an essential worker, going out into a world of exposure because you still have a job to do.

Coronavirus is top of mind for everyone, so we are doing a special miniseries here on Handle with Care. Workplace empathy, truly seeing the whole person and not just the job, has never been more important to as many people as it is now. We are going to be talking to all kinds of people affected by the shutdown, giving you valuable insights and guidance within their stories so you can help those around you.

Today, we are talking with Matt Mills of Mills Catering, headquartered in Indianapolis. Matt is a hard worker, a straight shooter, and, as someone who has been fortunate enough to sample his cooking, he is a bang-up chef. And COVID-19 has hit his business, hard.

Before we begin, I'd like to thank our sponsors, FullStack PEO, providing benefits and HR support to small businesses and entrepreneurs, and Motivosity, a software solution to brings fun and engagement to your employees.

Now, back to Matt and his story…

- Liesel Mertes

Would you tell me just a little bit about Mills catering? How long you been around? Why you started doing this catering thing?

- Matt Mills

Sure. While I was an English major. That's why I became a caterer. Absolutely. As what? The creative writing major. So, my father is in the food business, the wholesale Sysco for all my life. I worked at Cisco for a while. I started working there when I was 13 in the maintenance department. When I went to college, dabbled with restaurant stuff a little bit after that, but my first real job cooking, I ran the cafeteria, Sysco in Indianapolis Fed three shifts, didn't go my head from my butt and I loved it, loved the oh, let's see what we can do with this.

- Matt Mills

It actually prepared me quite well for what I do now because they are basically, they'd give me things. I'd plan a menu on the fly. We'd figured out and realize I know what I was doing, went to culinary school in Rhode Island, came back, worked in some restaurants, was working for a local restaurant in town and did a catering job for them and spent about 20 hours on it and used some of my own stuff and realized that I didn't need a middleman for this.

- Matt Mills

And it picked up one or two people that were interested in events. And I was like, you know what? Let's give this a shot. Quit my job, started buying equipment and slowly started a business and went from a couple different locations and worked out to cast the old cast across from.

- Matt Mills

I guess it was we're be-bop pizza was a forty fifty fourth and college worked out of there for a while. Shepherd community who will give a kidney to at any time if they need one has very good to me. And Jay Height is probably one of the best people I know. He. They've been in there instrumental in me staying in business for a while. Had a baby about 15 years ago, so I ran a business 18 years. He's paying taxes legally.

- Matt Mills

And when Silas was born, I remember having a conversation with my father. Lon is like, we going to get serious about this or what? So, I bought a building right after that. And then. Just started quietly building business in spite of myself. I'm not very good at. social-networking I don't really. We finally got our Facebook page up and running after 10 years. But Zo, in spite of myself, we've just been quietly under under promising and overdelivering and trying to do our best.

- Matt Mills

And if we don't do our best, we fix it. So. That's good.

- Liesel Mertes

And just for the human dynamic. Will you tell me a little bit about your wife and son?

- Matt Mills

My wife is my better three quarters Anastasia. Catherine Anastasia Mills. She is much smarter than I am. She is very talented in law, gardening, music. Just about everything she does, my son is 15 sales smells. He goes to cathedral. He is such a good friend and a good teammate and a great kid.

And I couldn't be more blessed like that. And yes, a rousing endorsement on my part about your wife, especially.

- Liesel Mertes

Yeah. I had, um. I had a friend who well, Sam, we had dinner. He dropped our food for our family. And as I looked at it, they said, oh, that's actually from Matt Mills catering until my dad's. I mean, I know I've been the beneficiary of some of your cooking

effect of some of the food that you gave him. So, thank you from my family to yours. That's funny.

- Matt Mills

Well, as far as my business goes, we. It pretty much has wiped me out for about the next two months. And once we get into wedding season, that's definitely going to get a lot more interesting as people try to life events tend to take a lot of time to plan and tend to be expensive for some of them. So, we got some figuring to do on that. As far as restaurants go in food service in general, pretty much if you got any place right now you you have the owner, all salaried people doing what they can to keep the doors open.

- Matt Mills

And then I know many places like this where they'll pull temps and try to help offset expenses and help pay any staff, because pretty much servers went away about, what, a week ago. Yeah. And that's a that's a real thing. I don't know why I don't know the end plan on this, but if we can't if we can't adapt, I don't I don't know. I think that's what everyone is doing right now.

- Matt Mills

Everyone's just kind of seeing what they can do. Changing what they do. Compromising any way they can. We were all families, basically, when you when you look at a restaurant or any kind of business and you want to make sure you take care of your family and it puts an especially owner is in a tough situation and there's really not right answers. But I don't know. Do what you can, I guess.

- Liesel Mertes

Tell me a little bit more about that. When in the midst of normal times, what is that kind of family or collegial interaction like?

- Matt Mills

Well, for us, it's kind of like a crew on a pirate ship. We're all there. We're all there because we want to be there. And I would love to say it was a military example, but it's not. We just, you know, we we kind of you work with someone, you form a relationship, you start, you care about them as a person.

- Matt Mills

You care about their family; you care about each other's success and what you're doing. And you never want to. You never want to see anyone suffer, especially from things out of their control. As far as our, personally, with my business, I was telling them the first person and not get paid, it's gonna be me or will be me or is me. So as far as the restaurants go, it's just such a tenuous thing.

- Matt Mills

And now I'm losing in the middle May. I've had June stuff either move in some of these things or reschedule and we'll figure that out. But its kind of is what it is. I like I said, I'm trying to figure out the best way to be a steward of the funds we have. Make sure everyone can get paid. Make sure we can kind of be in control of the situation as long as we can. We've even switched what we're doing now, we're doing catering.

- Matt Mills

So, we run deliveries. We have free delivery. That's what a lot of restaurants have done. They've gone to to carry out pickup or they've changed what they've done all together. They've become commissaries.

- Matt Mills

I've taken steps to help fortify things. But it's I'm not really concerned about the business. It's not going anywhere. I'll need to die, or the building needs to burn down for me to quit. But I keep my guys and I want to keep their I want to help them help feed their family. So, we're trying to stay busy. That's kind of where we are.

- Liesel Mertes

Yeah. Tell me about that. Because as I have been talking with and doing communication coaching for executive teams, you know, I realize there's a particular burden of someone at the top who realizes that the decisions that they make have trickle down to all the peoples families who are present in there.

- Liesel Mertes

How has that felt to you as you're facing the realities of the market and the people who make up your pirate crew?

- Matt Mills

Pirate crew? Thank you very much. Well. I like the fact that we're still working. It's kind of in our bones and it's what we do. So, it gives us normalcy in that. And if we can feed some people and help some people and feel like we're actually doing something towards it, I think that's a win. So that's kind of. We always run by the. The theory, it's not the philosophy, it's not what happens, it's what happens next.

- Matt Mills

Like things happen. Now what? So, this was a now what moment where. Now what are we gonna do? Well, we're gonna do this meal kid thing if that doesn't work. I've talked to the guys. I'm like, if they shut it down, maybe we can be at someone's hungry somewhere. I'd rather be cooking even if I don't make a damn dime on it. Cause that's what we do and kind of go crazy if I don't do it for a while.

- Liesel Mertes

Yeah. You mentioned is keeping you up at night. Tell me a little bit more about the stuff that's keeping you up at night.

- Matt Mills

I've had a lot of peace about it. My my fears are the unknown. I think that pretty much sits with everyone because there's so many things we don't know right now. I think that. Needs are gonna go. The needs that everyone has now will change as this progresses and as things get more and more restrained. I mean, I'm I'm fortunate or we're fortunate in that as being part of food service. I don't think that we are going to physically close down, but I don't know what happens with grocery stores.

- Matt Mills

People go into the store. There's just a lot of unknown as far as. It's just interesting because like food banks, I think food banks are struggling to find product right now, even if they have funds because everyone's in the same boat. Everyone wants the shelf stable. They want the the past policies and they want the something you can pull out and feed your kids. So that that keeps me up the business stuff. It's all things. It doesn't matter just the personal cost on this for us as a as a city and everything else.

- Matt Mills

That's what that's what worries me. It's all right.

- Liesel Mertes

I mean, I've I've had a growing sense of just the long tail on this. And they're the relational cost then as people are just dealing with all of that, the stress of work, insecurity or people being laid off, you know, how that how that comes out and different behaviors and. Yeah. Like, you know, our alcohol sales are through the roof right now and not that that's inherently bad thing. But, you know, I'm going to be having an interview later this week with a guy who, you know, is fighting for his sobriety.

- Liesel Mertes

And what does it mean to have all the AA meetings closed down? Right. Have everybody drinking. And, you know, it's just all these human dramas that are compounding as time goes on.

- Matt Mills

Sure. But it's not. I will say this. I really value the time we've been able to spend at home because we were always in orbit of each other and we're always at the same place, you know. So, it's it's been very nice just to be. The circumstances are shit. And I would love the circumstances, but it's just kind of nice to. Be together. And this also brings out the resilience and people, because you see people that like, oh, now we're gonna do this and we're gonna look out for each other this way or we're gonna.

- Matt Mills

I'm sure that you can find countless stories of people helping people and where we live. We have a bunch of bikes we're going to put on the porch because there's a swap. So now you don't have to go the storm by stuff. We all have stuff we can kind of trade. And we hopefully this will bring us a little closer as people that we're not supposed to talk to one another face to face.

- Liesel Mertes

You know what? Then I like the turn of phrase is not what happens. It's what happens next. And tell me a little bit about some of your most fun at home times as you've been enjoying being with stations. I was.

- Matt Mills

Well, we've we've been watching movies, which we don't usually do, but it's just fun to sit together and be together. We play anagrams or we try to pick out a board game and make it work. Dinner is more of a source of entertainment.

- Matt Mills

I love trying to figure out what we're gonna eat and station would always I drive her nuts in that I would try to run out of food before I'd get more. I'm really good at survival cooking. I guess that can of beans last for me. But I like the challenge of that. Our drawers have never been more organized. Hopefully the sun will come out eventually and we have this side. But I don't know. It's just going to be stuck with people.

I'd rather be stuck with them.

- Liesel Mertes

Yeah, you wouldn't want people to know about it. I don't know. People who are in the restaurant business or catering. You would want them to have an awareness of or do you have any word like that?

- Matt Mills

In what way? I don't know. Like, I actually write things like, hey, still, you know, be buying gifts, certificates or.

- Liesel Mertes

Absolutely. Is there a call to action like that?

- Matt Mills

I do. I'm not as connected as I should be. I mean, be aware that it's not for people in the industry, but for people out of the industry. There's a lot of people off work and suddenly off work because of this. And yeah. Gift cards, I think are a great idea. If you're I mean, these people are still good at doing carry out and stuff as long as we can do that. Any tips you usually do, they'll pull and give the servers.

- Matt Mills

I mean it's it's not critical yet, but it's gonna get interesting I think for sure. I don't I don't think this is going to end us. I think we're gonna be OK. Just going to suck for a while.

- Matt Mills

Yeah. Yeah, I hear that. Well, thank you, Matt. I hope that the rest of your day, whether it's movies or Bananagrams, goes, well, I am surprised. I'm sitting in my closet with the door locked and I told my husband before I went and I was like, Luke, can you please keep the children from screaming at each other just as long as I'm in there? And it's been remarkable because this is the longest stretch to day that we haven't had either war cries or loud games of tag.

- Matt Mills

So, I've got some fun, actually. And they they are kind of fun.

- Liesel Mertes

There's there's an element there, all kinds of things that are chaotic about having four children. There's also things that like they still have like a kind of cohort like to play with and fight with. And so, everybody's at a pretty high emotional pitch, which can be glorious or devastating. But they do have other options all the time.

- Matt Mills

So, there you go.

- Liesel Mertes

Thank you for making the time. I appreciate it. If you need smarter answers, I could probably think on things until you give them all. Those are good answers. And yeah, I think more than anything, you know, talking about owning your words in your heart. Your your heart for your people, but also the power of, you know, ducking your head and doing the work and being willing to pivot. Is is a good word. I especially liked. Yes. It's not what happened, but it's what happens next. So, I think it's a good word for people. And thank you. All right. Have a good afternoon, Matt. All righty. See you. I like.

MUSICAL TRANSITION

As always, here are three key takeaways from my conversation with Matt Mills

• I hope this conversation opened you up to one of the stories behind the numbers.The men and women being affected are not just data points, they are people with families and passion, scrappy entrepreneurs and workers that are feeling this deeply
• Buy gift cards or order carry-out.People in the restaurant and food service are doing everything they can to keep their pirate ships afloat…I have linked the Mills Catering Facebook page to the show notes. This is the best place to keep up with daily menu items and delivery options. Try the coleslaw
• I loved Matt's turn of phrase: it's not about what happened, it's about what happens next. This is, in a time of great uncertainty, perhaps a good word for everyone. What happens NEXT for you?

OUTRO

Mills Catering: https://www.facebook.com/Mills-Catering-122716954412270/?eid=ARAsePo1FH2OYPk9_Q_UhyxBJAYJQ8cgc1xiN3nH-Y7UWGKaTFmwWAPxQm4dLo5y6xAnUXokFIzXjIvS

- Paul Ashley

Because it dismisses it dismisses who who I am or whoever that person is. You're saying it, too. It dismisses who their whole self is. Yes. Right. Again, the dichotomy of the fact that I have depression, yet I'm a hoot to be at be at a party with or are both true and at the same time. And if you dismiss either part of that, like all, if you're depressed, you can have fun. If you're fine, you can be depressed. Right. You're basically saying I'm not me, and that's offensive.

INTRO

Paul Ashley is a Vice President and Managing Director at First Person Advisors. He has also lived most of his life with depression and, at the time of this podcast recording, has just published an article taking on the stigma associated with depression.

Liesel Mertes

What is the American 24th twenty first century associations and stigma that go with depression and particularly for you as a white male? Yeah. How do you feel it?

- Paul Ashley

Well, I think I've blown through some of that. I think I've realized the stigma that I believed existed. Maybe isn't true. But let's say let's say I didn't yet. So what is the low level stigma? I think that as a man, we're maybe called to be brave and strong.

- Paul Ashley

Maybe it's different than feminine, right? Female.

- Paul Ashley

As a successful business person, what do you have to complain about as a person and business? You can't show people you're weak because weakness will get preyed upon. I think those some mixture of all that is a stigma.

But Paul is more than just his depression. He is married to Amy and the father of five children, including twins. And he has three dogs. And a fish.

- Paul Ashley

Technically the fish's name is Mr. Unicorn Pants. Because it spent some time in Amy's classroom at school and sometimes at home.

But at home I call Mr. Bubbles.

He is also a wine expert, which has a proper French name that I have been struggling to pronounce.

- Liesel Mertes

Tell me a little bit more about. I'm not even going to pronounce this word correctly. I only see it written being at O somewhere.

Yay! Oh, say it again. Some of yeah. Some it s a French word. Just super friendly French words. Tell me more.

- Paul Ashley

Yeah. So that's part of what's helped in my journey is having things that I enjoy in life. And one of them is I I enjoy wine, education and wine knowledge. And officially a few years ago I earned what's through the courts of master sommeliers is my level one designation.

- Paul Ashley

Sharing wine and food like is there a better way to have community, you know, good people, good wine, good food and that wonderful banquet table, by the way. And in that order, people, food and wine like you put those three together. You're going to have a great time.

Paul takes trips down to Haiti with Filter of Hope, to address Water Insecurity. In addition to his international travels, Paul is raising money for Cancer Research this month as a Man of the Year candidate, more on that later.

And as we begin this important conversation, I want to thank our sponsors. FullStack PEO is a full-service benefits firm that provides great services and packages for small companies and entrepreneurs. This month, we are also welcoming Motivosity as a friend and sponsor of the podcast. Motivosity is a peer recognition and employee feedback software that will have your employees more motivated than ever. Finally, we are sponsored by Handle with Care Consulting. Contact Handle with Care for interactive, powerful sessions that equip your people to competently offer care when it matters most.

As I mentioned, Paul also become more vocal about his journey with depression. As we began to talk, Paul memorably described depression like a dog.

- Paul Ashley

It's. It sort of has. You've ever seen the World Health Organization video they put out on depression, though? With the metaphor that it's a black dog. Mm hmm.

- Liesel Mertes

No, tell me more.

- Paul Ashley

Well, so this idea is that this black dog follows you everywhere in life when you have depression.

- Paul Ashley

And sometimes the black dog is this massive creature that stands over. You like foreboding. Other times, it's this little puppy that's in your lap that you can control. And it's he's always with you, right? Well, I sort of feel like it's helped make the black dog be like, yeah.

- Paul Ashley

T-Mobile doesn't cure it. The black dog is never gonna go away. Not cuddly. But yeah. Just survivable. Yeah. Yeah.

Like president that present but not out of control. Right. Not a slobbery, you know, vicious dog.

- Liesel Mertes

Well you said was it your teenage years that you.

- Paul Ashley

Yeah. It started when I was 17 to 17. Yeah.

- Liesel Mertes

Tell me more about that.

- Paul Ashley

So growing up in a in a you know, in a house that was imperfect as most homes are, even the home I have with my wife and it's we we aren't perfect. You are still. Yeah, right.

- Liesel Mertes

You do?

- Paul Ashley

Yes. What a coincidence. Especially the greater number of children you have, the greater chances for imperfection.

You think? Yeah. Because you have more human fallibility mixing together.

[00:01:42.420] - Paul Ashley

You know, I in really quite frankly, family history is is very present on both maternal and paternal side of the family with mental health issues, depression, anxiety, other stuff.

- Paul Ashley

And I, you know, was dealing with teen angst as one deals with and I can I can see it as plain as day. We were I was I was driving somewhere in the evening in my hometown of Columbia, Missouri. And there was an intersection. That's actually not too far from University, Missouri, where this one road comes to a T. And on the other side of that, T is a limestone, you know, cut out from where they blasted to have to have the road built.

- Paul Ashley

Right. And I remember turning onto the one road that tease out there and thinking, I'm just going to gun it and just like hit the wall and make it all go away.

- Paul Ashley

And I realized, whoa, that is that's a suicidal thought, that self-harm like that's not that's not good. That's real bad. I was like, what is causing that?

- Paul Ashley

And I reached. Luckily for me, thank God, my best friend growing up, best man at my wedding.

- Paul Ashley

His father is one of the most world renowned child psychiatrist.

- Paul Ashley

And he his actual specialty is working with children in war and where they've gone through massive events, things like Syria. And remember, in the 90s, Bosnia and Herzegovina and all that they dealt with, he did a ton of work with the U.N. and he's just unbelievably gifted. Well, you know, fearful as a 17 year old who just didn't like didn't know what all this is about. I called I called him and said, I need help. And he said, listen, I normally don't treat people that close to me, but I'll take care of you.

- Paul Ashley

And he did and sort of started me back to stability pretty quickly. Once a cult classic story.

- Liesel Mertes

So a childhood context of, you know, your parents having their own mental health issues. Did you feel like you had? Because it strikes me as particularly self-aware in some ways that you at 17 were able to recognize that thought is damaging, feel like you had agency to reach out to someone. Was that formed? Did you have an awareness with your parents like, oh, they are going through a mental health episode or because I'm struck for some children, like they just internalize that as I deserve what's going on or I'm the cause of that.

- Liesel Mertes

Like what sort of a formation did your perception as a child have allowed you to reach out the way you did?

- Paul Ashley

What a brilliant question, because I don't know that I ever have ever thought about that. You know, it's something I was able to do. And so at the same time, I think what what your question helps me think about and realize is that as imperfect as some of the upbringing was and as as much pain as can get caused in the household, my parents, my dad has passed away. My mom still living. Did a lot, you know.

- Paul Ashley

They gave me enough there was enough love in that house. There's, you know, everybody's doing their best that they probably not only do they give me the genetic disposition to have the problem and some of the triggers that would exist to create it. I'm not blaming them, don't get me wrong. But they also gifted me with the bravery to self-identify and be self-aware at the same time. Isn't that interesting that you both would coexist?

- Liesel Mertes

Did you see some of that bravery for them in your upcoming light at the time?

- Paul Ashley

No. As I now, as an adult, as a as a parent of five kids, I I see it. I see the bravery in hindsight, but not the.

- Paul Ashley

That's certainly not in the moment. Yeah. You know, there's more blame and payment pain and blame than there was. Looking back and saying, you know, bless them for. Yeah. But they were able to do well.

- Liesel Mertes

I mean, that's such an age where you're just beginning to make sense of who you are. Is there an emerging in the washer and what you take from your parents, what you choose to leave behind? Do you remember that as you're beginning to work with this friend's father of just I imagine I could feel really tumultuous, like my parents have given this to me or they've wounded me in this way. Do feel free.

- Paul Ashley

Yeah, I think there's a definite wounding, you know, the wounds, wounds as you have as a child. And, you know, even today it almost 43. I'll be 43. And in April this year, happy. Almost. Thank you for almost having a birthday.

- Paul Ashley

Yes. I think there's still that childhood wound that doesn't fully go away. Not at all. Does it fully go away? Yeah. It's just it's hard. You know, even though I I'm blessed that I've been connected with Cindy Rep. Ragsdale. Yeah. You know, Cindy.

I do. And and her husband. Unbelievable artist Kyle, her husband.

- Liesel Mertes

My husband and I have gone to marital counseling with Cindy. Well, let's just say I have sat in her office.

- Paul Ashley

So this is the Cindy Ragsdale fan club right here.

- Paul Ashley

So Cindy and I have been working together for probably a year and a half now, 18 months, pretty consistently. You know, every three weeks, give or take. And, you know, we're, we're, we're going back and dealing with some of those childhood wounds.

- Paul Ashley

But the big realization I have from all that is that that the things you did as a child to cope, survive and thrive were were the right things and they were effective. It's as you get later in life and continue to work on yourself and become try to become the whole you that you're supposed to become. You begin to realize that those same skills that were really effective as a child becomes super and potentially super ineffective and damaging as an adult. Right.

- Paul Ashley

Right. But there's grace in that. Yeah. Like, that's okay. And you you don't you don't trash the old behavior because it was what you needed at the time. And you just you sort of learned to evolve throughout that process. That's kind of where I'm at right now in terms of that counseling. And, you know, there's bad behaviors that again, sins of the fathers. Right. Like, right. If I don't if I don't do my thing to get healthier, I'm I'm just kicking the can down the genetic stream to my kids and their kids and their kid's kids.

- Liesel Mertes

Well, it's it's a brave and painful journey and not be able to do that work. And like you said, to to work is not to evade, but to sidestep some of this weirdly inside eddies that are all about like, oh, man, I'm so messed up and I've been messed up since I was six. And I started doing, you know, this thing to survive and to be able say, you know what, I'm recognizing that that exactly what you said was what I needed to survive at that time.

- Liesel Mertes

But that doesn't mean that I, as a choosing an aware person, have to keep being hijacked. Right. That pattern.

- Liesel Mertes

Exactly. And breaking. It's not easy because it served you well, right? It's certainly not your neural pathways.

- Paul Ashley

Ray, there's some neural pathways that are pretty solid. Yeah. Based on survival.

MUSICAL TRANSITION - Paul Ashley

And so it was like I thought of this thing. It was crazy. Help me. That's all I had, which was all I needed at the time. And I think that was what I've taken from that is I've as time has gone on, I've been more willing to be more public about my journey. I think to realizations. Number one, being able to say this is this this journey with depression has existed in my life continuously since I was 17 and now at 43, realizing it's probably never going to be cured.

- Paul Ashley

Air quotes inserted here, right. Like it's not going to go away. It's probably always going to be present. OK, so relax. Except that doesn't mean you're broken. Doesn't mean you're messed up. It just means that's true. Yeah.

- Liesel Mertes

If someone were to say, well, I'll feel sad sometimes. Yeah. How does depression feel or look different? Like what are the undertones? Does depression for you? Come on, quickly. Is it cyclical? How is that looking for someone who would say it hasn't been a part of my story?

- Paul Ashley

Yeah, I mean, sadness exists in this world no matter what your clinical background is, you know? But there are sad things that happen all the time. Life events and and sad, you know, occurrences, I would say. For me, depression is more like the consistent who who I am. And I don't know that it's cyclical. It's it's always present. But it does have general peaks and valleys. And a lot of those peaks and valleys depend on sort of what I'm doing to either take care or not take care of myself.

- Liesel Mertes

Right. So when you're not taking care of yourself, what does that look like and where do you find yourself going?

- Paul Ashley

Problem biggest indicator for me of how I feel when those, you know, sort of the values are more present is our mornings where it feels like it is every fiber in my being to get out of bed, you know, to simply put the feet on the floor and get out of bed and face the day like, I don't even want to go to bed. I just want to close my eyes and never get out of that. Get out of bed.

- Paul Ashley

And there's been some seasons where I have had I don't have suicidal thoughts. Is there nothing like ideation with a start of a plan like I had when I was 17? But I've have had thoughts at times when those valleys are true.

- Paul Ashley

In addition to get out of bed where it is, where I've had some sort of like like man officious was if this life was just over, there would just be this all would be solved. Like the pain would be gone. I'd be fine.

- Liesel Mertes

And how does the day progress from there? Where is that reckoning of like, oh, I only want to get out of bed.

- Paul Ashley

And there's some days we're all cancel meeting or all. And this doesn't happen anytime recently, but I'll cancel a meeting or, you know, get up at the last possible second.

- Paul Ashley

You know, like, can I get 30 more seconds but not facing the world and think the other thing that I see to do is withdraw from mostly with the family, for my wife and my five kids, you know, getting sucked into social media as a escapism. I think that you see a lot of that too little. That's adult a._d._d as well. But the addiction of social media made to be addictive. Right. Like, they literally have designs.

- Liesel Mertes

They're not doing this by mistake. So I think those are probably some indicators that I see. Right.

- Paul Ashley

What's interesting about, you know, my role professionally is I'm in an advisory role and I'm also in a business development role. And so this idea of being onstage and performing those two can sometimes not mix so well. Luckily, I've been able to, you know, particularly the last 10 years, been pretty successful despite this ever present friend that I call depression.

- Paul Ashley

And then in the writing and in in conversation with you and other people, I I phrased it a little differently every time. But I essentially say when I tell people about my journey with depression and oftentimes the reaction I will get, which is not they don't mean harm and it doesn't hurt me, is really. Yeah, you you're depressed or you, you have depression or really this is a journey you've been on. But Paul, you're literally one of the most fun guys to be around in your.

- Paul Ashley

So you're the life of the party and you're engaging. And my response to them is, yes, both are true and literally at the same time, which surges like day. Right.

- Paul Ashley

And that's a that is that dichotomy is really weird. And it's sort of in some ways beautiful and painful.

I've been at events that Paul has hosted. He is high-energy, with a warm smile and a quick retort: a talented connector and facilitator. But this sense of being on came with a cost.

- Paul Ashley

I hold it together at work. When those those episodes are seasons are there. And then at home, I'm just darn near worthless.

- Paul Ashley

You know, I I see the damage. I see the damage that is done at home. And Amy and I have a really solid marriage and a great relationship. And it's almost 19 years now. But there are you know, there are seasons and days I can't get back. And I think she's as an adult, she's more aware and gracious. I think it's really it's been really hard at times on the kids.

- Paul Ashley

Yeah. So. So the kid, the kids of, you know, they're they're resilient. Right. So they'll bounce like the seasons that I've where I've done damage by not being present, you know, much like I'm I'm resilient from my childhood. They're gonna eventually be fine. But it it hurts.

- Liesel Mertes

Is there a conversation? Because there is a complex web of modeling, genetics, stress points. That is not something that's easily clinically or relationally passed out. Yeah, but there is an element of, like you said, aspects that run through families that make children predisposed towards certain behaviors and your own journey. How do you find yourself talking and framing life experience around depression or anxiety to your children to equip them in ways that perhaps you were underequipped?

- Paul Ashley

I think that's the next horizon for me and my journey. I think where I've been able to be a little more clearer for what I need a little more clear about sharing. Publicly out in the world where I don't have relations, like I think the next horizon is figuring out how to be public with my kids in a way that's productive for them and for me, but also realizing there are five different humans at four different ages. Right. Right.

- Paul Ashley

And you know what? I know I've hurt them because I'm a human. And that's what we heard our kids, even though we don't want to. And so what can I do to equip them, to help them understand why that is, how these reasons and things have happened?

- Liesel Mertes

Well, I'm struck that as you're living those questions towards their answers. That's his own gift that you give not only to your children to equip them more, but hopefully, you know, it's not just this aspirational like American dream, but to equip our children, to not have to make the same sorts of mistakes in the same kind of way. And then should they have children to equip them to give even more and to be able to pass wisdom down?

- Paul Ashley

Yeah. Yeah. And it's a I mean, they're dealing with things as adolescence that I never had to because they're they have a supercomputer in their pocket. Right. I didn't have that.

- Liesel Mertes

Well, they have so many feedback mechanisms to when we talk about some of the things that can spark whether anxious episodes are depressing. You know, so often it is based off of perceived social cues. And you're so inundated with so many people's thoughts and likes and dislikes of you all the time. It's just a different psychological reckoning.

- Paul Ashley

It's really is. And being a kid isn't easy. Right. Never has been. And I think it's not going to be easier.

- Liesel Mertes

Well, and it's always good to remember, I think as a child, you actually as you encounter the escalation of life stresses, you don't actually know if you're going to survive them or not. Like it's only through surviving the chaos of that first time that you can have any sort of sense of building resiliency. And so the the pitch sometimes of of children's emotion to be like, well, they're not sure if they're going to die from this pain or not, you know, and it's it's survivors slowly like and living through it when you are in the midst of.

- Paul Ashley

A depressive season. That's the word I use. Season, season. What are some of the things that have proven helpful for you not to, like, suddenly snap out of it, but that are helpful?

- Paul Ashley

So I think talking about it is probably the most helpful because that that whole if it's if it's hidden away in its secret, that's where it festers. And, you know, as a person of faith, I think there's a spirituality that there's a kind of spiritual warfare going on there. But if you don't talk about it. You know this. The you know, the devil can steel industry. Right. You know, that's how I would describe it for somebody who's not a spiritual person.

- Paul Ashley

I just think things in secret versus things that are brought out in truth are damaging. Yeah, I mean, the secret is damaging. Truth is his life-giving. So talking about it, whether that's a counselor or a confidant and a friend, whatever.

- Paul Ashley

It just any conversation, most any conversation should be helpful with somebody you trust. Sleep healthy sleep, which I know is kind of ironic when I say I can't get out of bed. But having a healthy sleep pattern has been helpful.

- Paul Ashley

Exercise is, you know, clinically been proven. That is one of the best ways to fight depression, even without medication. You know, the way your body doesn't have to be, you have to be a marathon runner. You know, do.

- Paul Ashley

What does that crazy gym thing called

- Liesel Mertes

CrossFit.

- Paul Ashley

CrossFit, you know, to be a CrossFit expert. Right. You just have to get out and get your heart rate up a little for 20 or 30 minutes every day. And that's the science on that. Is that what it does from an endorphin perspective and sort of a natural defense mechanism to depression?

- Paul Ashley

So a little bit of exercise or lot, if that's your thing. Diet certainly plays. You know, if I if I eat foods that are way too regain, you know, eat too late at night. And, you know, if I if I alcohol's at the presence of I, you know, entertaining and I have too much alcohol. That doesn't help. And then, you know, for me, medication and medication is not for everybody. And it's not exact science either.

- Paul Ashley

It's a search for what works best.

- Paul Ashley

And I think kind of any combination of those have really been helpful.

These are all personal things that Paul does to manage his depression. However, as a benefits specialist, he also has a lot to add about how employers can help their people as they live with depression.

- Paul Ashley

And you know, in the workplace there's all sorts of stuff like, you know, most employers have what's called an EAP

- Liesel Mertes

An Employee Assistance Program.

- Paul Ashley

Those EAPs can be super helpful. Yeah. It's like if you're a leader and you have somebody in your team who you think is struggling, you as the leader call that the EAP and say, here's what's happening. And they they these are professionals. They can help you.

- Liesel Mertes

So for people who don't know EAP are license agreements with clinical providers to be able to have as a resource for your people to call to get help to hook appointments?

- Paul Ashley

All sorts of stuff. Right. Yeah. And they're highly underutilized. Yes, they are. So employers pay for this or it's it's included as a value add in certain products they buy.

Paul also notes how the Canadian system is structured in a way that invites employers to be a part of solutions.

- Paul Ashley

They have an opportunity to to create perks that because they're not paying for while they're paying for it, but because they're not providing basic health care.

- Paul Ashley

The government takes care of that. They then to attract and retain employees have to be thoughtful about what their different perks are. And one of the things the Canadians have done is and the workforce that the employers believe they have a role to play in helping people with mental health and that it's something that's talked about in the workplace. And it's a benefit that is well thought of. And there's different models that employers provide above and beyond what the health care system does.

- Paul Ashley

And so as I go to industry conferences, the Certified Employee Benefits Specialists, which is a designation I have. We do our national symposium or the international symposium every year because our Canadian friends are there. And it's I always stop in and listen to what they're doing on the Canadian track, because what they're talking about in terms of mental health in the workplace is so far ahead of where we are. I mean, they're probably a good 20 years.

- Paul Ashley

It's like awareness, specific support systems, counselors on site, incentives to seeking out care, whether it's the stigma is different.

- Paul Ashley

I mean, there is probably still a stigma not being in it. It's hard to say, but it feels like the stigma is less if nonexistent.

- Paul Ashley

It feels like they invest from an employer perspective in programs, telephonic support apps, you know, various different modules and modes to support people, investment of time and dollars and just a cultural difference as seen as a lot more of a buy in.

MUSICAL TRANSITION

- Liesel Mertes

When you're in a depressive season, what are things that people either purposefully or inadvertently say or do like is not helpful?

- Paul Ashley

I think I used to be bugged by the the thing of, well, you can't be depressed. You're super happy. Right, like that. That can be hurtful. How?

- Liesel Mertes

Tell me more about that. What level does that hit for you?

- Paul Ashley

Because it dismisses it dismisses who who I am or whoever that person is. You're saying it, too. It dismisses who their whole self is. Yes. Right. Again, the dichotomy of the fact that I have depression, yet I'm a hoot to be at be at a party with or are both true and at the same time. And if you dismiss either part of that, like all, if you're depressed, you can have fun.

- Paul Ashley

If you're fine, you can be depressed. Right. You're basically saying I'm not me, and that's offensive.

- Liesel Mertes

What does it feel? Also, I can imagine I could feel like you're invalidating what I'm saying. Yeah. And that what I'm saying could be true. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

- Paul Ashley

But. There's no way you're depressed. You're too much fun to be around. Really? You really want to see that?

- Paul Ashley

You really come on over it. Yeah. Come on. Come on over all. You live in me for a while and you'll get me a real back.

But that's over. I'll show you. I'll show you. Depressed. So that can be hurtful.

- Paul Ashley

And, you know, ninety nine point nine percent the time people are not trying to trying to be hurtful. I think the other one this just popped in my mind.

- Liesel Mertes

Bless these people.

- Paul Ashley

So the other one is in Communities of Faith Church and my you know, Christian Church.

- Paul Ashley

I've had people say, well, you know, you just pray harder and have a little more faith. God will take away your depression.

- Paul Ashley

Do you not think that I haven't already brought this to God and said, if you know, if you 're willing take this away, make this not be part of who I am. Do you not think I haven't tried that? Yeah. Do you not think that hasn't been part of my faith journey? Right. That hurts a lot.

- Paul Ashley

Like that is unbelievably right. Because that's not you know, that that's just it's just not it's just not true. I mean, that's just not how God works.

- Liesel Mertes

I think you touched on this, but I don't know if you say it differently. If you could give a greater awareness to people who have not experienced depression. What would you want them to know? What would you feel is really important?

- Paul Ashley

That people who are suffering from depression all don't look the same. And. It can be as debilitating as any other chronic illness that you've ever heard of, like diabetes or cancer or things of that nature and that, but it is because it has been stigmatized and it's harder to see.

- Paul Ashley

That you sometimes don't even know who's walking around with it. Yeah. And that's just another proof point that we need to just be a little nicer to each other, right? Because you don't know what somebody's carrying around with them.

- Paul Ashley

I thought about that thought about any disease, just that, you know, everything you everything you need to know, like you learned in kindergarten. Yeah. Right. It's just be nice.

- Paul Ashley

Try to be what good does it quantify a little bit and then come back and then come back and try again.

- Liesel Mertes

I'm struck with in your story, as I said, you had a noteworthy ability early on to be seeking community. As a 17 year old, to be not just internalizing it and keeping it private. If someone is listening and they say I know someone who man, they're definitely depressed, but they're, they're not doing some of those things like they're not they're not exercising, making healthy choices. They're not utilizing a counselor. They're depressed. And it's very much something that's tightly held for them.

- Liesel Mertes

Yeah, for support people. They can often feel at their wits end of wanting to make a difference, but being unable to. What would you say for those people that are listening and they say, I don't know how to help someone like that?

- Paul Ashley

Well, they're not an actual clinician. Don't try to be one because you can do more damage than good.

- Paul Ashley

And sometimes pursuing them and asking them to do things, you know, that they historically have found to be fond or enjoyable and asking them to do them with you, even if they reject you multiple times, continue to ask, because sometimes all you really need to do when you're in those depressive seasons is simply get out and start living. Go for what if if going for a walk was your thing. And bottom for a walk if you are going to see a movie is their thing environment.

- Paul Ashley

But you may have to ask again and again and again and again. Right. And that's something that anybody can do, is join them in something, you know, they enjoy and get them. Just get them moving. Get them living. Be willing to be persistent. Yes. Yes. Yeah.

- Paul Ashley

And sometimes if somebody is really suffering, sometimes it's just simply out your relationship simply go into their house and just being present. Mm hmm. Yeah.

- Paul Ashley

Just physically present and not. I've never been in that stage where I've that's I've never gotten that bad. But I can see why that would be a spot where if somebody that truly cared about you just showed up and just sat there and didn't necessarily want you to talk, you just weren't alone and you knew somebody cared. Right.

- Paul Ashley

That can go a long way. And that can be its own practice of self-discipline and restraint for the person who arrives for the caregiver.

- Paul Ashley

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Do not say all the things that are perhaps at the tip of their tongue. Be that advice or you just need to hear this or.

- Paul Ashley

Yeah. I don't know that they need to just show up and be silent the whole time. But if the person doesn't wanna engage and talk, I mean you ask a few open to the questions. Right. How are you today. Would you want to do it? Still try to engage them. But if if all you get is silence just being followed, you'd be amazed at how much presence can you help

We are going to move, in a moment, to the three key take-aways from this episode. But I want to remind you that Paul is currently engaged in a great advocacy campaign to raise money and awareness from now until May 9 of 2020 for the leukemia, lymphoma society man and woman of the year.

- Paul Ashley

I t's about raising money for L.A. less. And L.A. Less is an amazing organization that does work in research, huge research, patient advocacy and resource connection for families.

Paul is inspired by the cause and by Finn Stallings, who was diagnosed with leukemia at the age of five and, three and a half years later, Finn just rang the bell to signal that his treatments were over. I've donated to support Paul and Finn and this meaningful research and I am including a link in the show notes so you can too.

MUSICAL TRANSITION

Here are three take-aways from my conversation with Paul

• If someone confides in you about their depression, listen and resist the urge to say something that minimizes their disclosure. Paul was especially triggered by statements like "But you are always so happy!" Which leads to my second point
• Depression can take all different forms.A person that is often "on" in their job function can be absolutely exhausted at home. Widening our perception of what depression looks like (and how debilitating it can be) will go a long way to breaking down the stigmas that promote a culture of silence.
• If you know someone that is struggling with depression, regularly checking in with them can be really important.Remember, as you make contact with them, they might not respond initially, you might need to continue checking in. As Paul said, coming alongside them and doing something that they have enjoyed in the past or just showing up to be with them, even if that means not talking for awhile, can powerfully show support.

As we close, I want to thank our sponsors. FullStack PEO is the premier benefits provider for small businesses and entrepreneurs. They give you great options, their staff is top-notch. Let FullStack handle your benefits so you can get back to work. We are also welcoming Motivosity as a sponsor. Motivosity is a software solution that creates motivated employees and helps to spread fun and gratitude. Finally, we are sponsored by Handle with Care Consulting. Through interactive workshops and keynotes, we help you offer support when it matters most.

OUTRO

https://pages.lls.org/mwoy/in/indy20/pashley - Man of the Year Campaign

https://firstpersonadvisors.com/paul-ashley/ - FirstPerson/Paul Ashley bio page

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiCrniLQGYc – WHO Black Dog video

https://www.bizvoicemagazine.com/interactive/2020/03/index.html#p=16 – Reducing the Stigma, BizVoice Magazine Article

– Adam Bryan

And in this, the first time we've talked publicly about this, because this gets a really people get shamed. This is this is a really black mark on many families. And they get kicked out of churches, they get kicked out of neighborhoods, they get kicked out of families where the grandparents or the parents will say, you know, how can you do that to a child? How can you consider that and will kick people out of families in shame?

- Allie Bryan

I mean, shame, the biggest.

INTRO

Today's conversation is a complex one. We are going to dive into the story of Adam and Allie and the little girl they adopted from Uganda. Adam and Allie loved their daughter and brought her over to be a part of their family. She lived with them for three years and is not no longer in their home. On this episode of the Handle with Care podcast, we are giving voice to a dimension of adoption that is difficult to talk about, often layered with a lot of emotion. Even the term for what we are discussing can feel charged.

– Liesel Mertes

Is the term. So some things that I encounter failed adoption dissolved. You know, this has been an adoption dissolution.

- Allie Bryan

Yeah. This has been disrupted or dissolved adoption. Okay. Those were the terms that like our lawyer used. Right. Okay.

- Liesel Mertes

So that was only because I was like, man, even the term failed adoption, you know, all kinds of like connotation. Right.

- Liesel Mertes

To how you feel and what terms you guys like to use. I say dissolves. Okay. Yeah. Dissolved adoption. Feel like it's the calmest word.

- Adam Bryan

I don't really identify. I like I don't really even news. Yeah. We had an adoption and we adopted girl. We've transitioned her. I don't really even know because I'm afraid of them. I just don't know.

- Liesel Mertes

Doesn't feel as maybe emotionally freighted in the same way.

This discussion could feel charged for you, the listener. I had my own emotional journey in preparing for the interview. It touches on pain and disappointment and vulnerability. When Adam first approached me last year, it was after listening to prior episodes that talked about adoption. He wondered if I had ever talked with a family whose adoption had dissolved. As we talked, I heard the landscape of pain and isolation that is a part of dissolved adoptions.

Whether or not you agree with Adam and Allie's choice, I believe it is important to hear their journey, the heartache and judgement and love that is embedded in their story. It is important to hear because we all bear complex stories…and it is important to hear because their story will help you empathize more with anyone who is on the adoption journey.

You will also hear how faith in God is deeply embedded in their journey. Faith is an essential grounding point for many people as they experience disruptive life events.

If you aren't from a similar background of faith, this perspective might seem foreign or jarring. If that is the case, I invite you to just listen with an open curiosity, embracing the insights that are for you and letting the aspects that don't apply to simply sit by the wayside.

As we begin, I want to remind listeners of our sponsors. Are you a small business owner? An entrepreneur? Growing your business van be hard, but benefits don't have to be. Let FullStack PEO take care of your people and your benefits plan so you can get back to business.

We are also sponsored by Handle with Care consulting, through workshops, conferences, and keynotes, we empower your people to respond with empathy and compassion when it matters most.

Let me begin by telling you a little bit about Adam and Allie. I went to high school with Adam. He was two years ahead of me and, in my mind, endlessly cool because he drove a Jeep.

Allie grew up moving all around the US; her dad was in the Navy. She and Adam still love traveling together. Allie also sells things on Facebook Marketplace.

– Adam Bryan

She'll post stuff. And I'm like, wait, I'm using that. Well, no one else. You I use it. One doesn't wait.

- Adam Bryan

Well, I like your toothbrush, right? Right. I think you're getting really kind, honey. You're getting really good at selling everyone else's stuff but your own.

I'm really nervous.

She's really good. So you're on to it through.

- Liesel Mertes

Did you have three children?

- Allie Bryan

Yes. Yeah.

- Liesel Mertes

What are their ages and what kinds of things do you most enjoy doing around town as a family?

- Adam Bryan

So the ages the youngest is four. Our middle is eight and our oldest is 10. OK.

- Allie Bryan

All of their birthdays in April?

No, no, it wasn't planned. It's just remarkable. Consistent, so. Right.

- Allie Bryan

So they're all gonna be switching here soon. I think we've gotten like I don't really know if we have anything.

- Adam Bryan

I enjoy family bike rides. The 4 year old has a little trailer bike. And so we. But not in the winter because it's Indiana. We do enjoy that as a family.

Adam grew up with just one sister and was always interested in adopting, Allie wasn't so sure. But that changed when their boys were three and one.

- Allie Bryan

I never wanted to adopt. My sister always wanted to. And I mean, we'd talk about it all the time growing up. And it never like, oh, I was about like. Good for you.

- Allie Bryan

And I was rocking. Our youngest at the time, and it just hit me of this. I think we're supposed to adopt and like now, which was so it was not me. I had never wanted to never considered any of it and came downstairs and told Adam and he was like, okay, that be great. Yeah.

- Allie Bryan

Maybe in like a couple years, you know, and like, no now

- Adam Bryan

or in like 10 years. Right.

- Allie Bryan

And so it started on a process of really trying to figure out from what country do we do it stateside, do it, you know, all the things. And it took a couple months for us to get on the same page.

But, through a process of discernment and listening, they did get on the same page. The next question was logistical considerations, domestic or international?

- Adam Bryan

So we were really open to whatever the Lord had at the time, but

- Allie Bryan

We had our we had savings and we we're like, well, let's get our home study done. And then as the Lord opens the door, we'll just keep moving forward.

- Allie Bryan

It was one of those.

- Adam Bryan

It was all of our savings rate. And so was not Dave Ramsey. It was not.

- Allie Bryan

And so every next step, we. It was that we'll do your money to move forward. And there always was. And the Lord provided all the money for it. Like we didn't because we didn't want to go into debt for it. Minute like he just provided.

There are also a lot of logistics to setting up a home study.

- Adam Bryan

I mean, basically, once they come through your life, I mean, you're getting fingerprinted and blood work and I don't know. Yeah. Just everything. I mean, they comb through everything your life. They come to your house, they meet with your kids, they interview people. You have to send in paperwork from other families that verify that you're good parents. They're so pretty involved. Yeah.

- Adam Bryan

Really, it's a very in-depth and involved process. I mean, the homestay, the paperwork that we took over, I mean, it was a stack of paper, you know, an inch or two thick of our whole life.

Adam and Allie ended up deciding to adopt from Uganda. Allie's sister was living in country with her country, she could help on the ground and make organic connections.

- Adam Bryan

And so there's a huge need over there.

Right.

- Allie Bryan

And so we ended up getting our home study done. And it was, okay, let's get over there and see what connections we can get. Like, let's see,

- Allie Bryan

Because you have to find a baby home and, you know, like there's an a lawyer. Like there's all these things that because we were doing it independently. So not with the adoption agency,

- Adam Bryan

We tried going through adoption agencies. But it's it's interesting because certain agencies are only work with certain countries and there's certain restrictions. And so it's not it's not really easy. And there's a lot of hoops to jump through. Just even with an agency. And so this was an opportunity

- Adam Bryan

And we were planning to go to visit them. We had the home study and you have to claim a country or whatever in the home study. And so we said, well, let's just put Uganda since we're going. We'll see what happens. In even talking with the agency we talked with to do the home study. He said you can change it later if you want to. So we just kind of started with that.

They get to Uganda and travel out to visit Allie's sister. Home study in hand, they meet with the director of the baby home.

- Adam Bryan

And then the next day she called us.

- Allie Bryan

She texted and said, I think I have a match for you. Which is a super weird text again. Okay. And so we made a scheduled time to go over to the baby home the next day and we met her. And so we have some precious video of getting to meet her.

- Adam Bryan

And it was also really weird.

- Allie Bryan

Yeah, it's you don't really prepare for that.

- Allie Bryan

And then having to go back to my sister's house and we had to sit in on the conversation of how do you even make this decision?

- Adam Bryan

It's like picking out a puppy at the pound. Except it's a human right. Right. How do you know? Guide for this.

- Adam Bryan

There is no guidebook for this. How do you say yes or how do you say no? Well, here's this child. She fits. You know, she was of age and we wanted a little girl and this or that. Like, how do you say no? How do you say how do you how do you do this?

- Adam Bryan

How do you make this decision?

After prayer and consideration, Adam and Allie decide to move forward. There was still a lot of paperwork, attorneys on the ground in Uganda. But everything was moving forward quickly,

- Liesel Mertes

So you you go. You return is the next step that you go again and bring your daughter home?

- Allie Bryan

Yeah. So we went over and met her in September. And so when we came home, it was that goal. OK, we have to get there's still a good amount. So at that point, we had investigations going on over there making sure everything was legitimate.

- Adam Bryan

And you had to we had to pay for ads to find if any other, Is this any other family? What her have a claim. And so we had to go through that. We had to. So the attorney and newspaper are in all of this stuff. So there's all this stuff. We're funding that's happening. And then we get a call that a court date is in February and March.

- Liesel Mertes

How were you learning or preparing?

- Liesel Mertes

Yeah, right on your own.

- Allie Bryan

So there was a really at the time, a really big independent adoption group for Uganda, which was super helpful because we were having to do all of it. So is a lot of updates of like paperwork in this and certain judges how long they take it. You know, you you just kind of start to network a lot through there. And that was really helpful. But I would say that's that was the main support.

There were also some resources stateside for families that were doing independent adoptions.

- Allie Bryan

So some of the classes or most the classes were online. And I remember one of them, it was it was preparing us to be white parents with a little African baby in it being a conspicuous ratably, which is, yes, that is a good thing to recognize and to.

- Allie Bryan

But it, "A" for effort. What I would say. It just doesn't prepare you right. For real life of having an adopted daughter from another country.

- Adam Bryan

And that's kind of like premarital counseling, right? You don't know what you write. You go through premarital counseling, but you have no idea. No. Right. It's kind of the same thing. Like they're telling you. But you have no frame of reference for this. You have no grasp of this. And so really, there wasn't we didn't find it very helpful.

- Liesel Mertes

And especially, you know, when you say that I considered it like you are receiving a person right now is just a child. Right. Right. Yes. A entity of this age. Right. This is a this is a personality. This is a set of experiences. Good, bad, traumatic.

Right. You. Yeah.

- Adam Bryan

Well, yeah. And there may be other agencies that do a better job with international culture and things. But we didn't we didn't receive that. We didn't get that. So. Yeah.

- Liesel Mertes

And I imagine even trauma. I'm right now. Right. My trauma is, you know, a different dimension.

Allie and Adam returned in February.

- Allie Bryan

And so we showed up in February and went to the baby home and they handed her to us. And it was literally like, all right. Like, do we need to sign anything? We're sorry.

- Adam Bryan

They just handed to us and we just walked out. Had a nine month onesie on. She was almost two. And she had like this dish towel as a diaper like tight around her. And that was it. Like, we just walked out with her. Are you sure you sign it? No, you're good. Go ahead.

Allie needed to stay behind in country for some additional weeks before their daughter could come to the US.

- Liesel Mertes

1. So, Allie, you guys are in a foreign country in in Kampala. I've, I've been there, I can picture the streets and things like that. And you actually are practiced at parenting a child, right? This age and stage. But what are you finding that you're like, oh, this is so familiar. And what are you finding? Oh, wow, this is different.

- Allie Bryan

Yeah, I anticipated more of different cause there was just a lot, you know, I. I walked in to the situation. So naive. And I was telling I think Adam a while ago, like I I literally thought within a week she was going to start saying, Mama, like in my head, like, I really.

- Allie Bryan

And then within because she's two, surely.

- Adam Bryan

And everyone had said we had like physical therapists look at her and like developmental therapists like over there.

- Adam Bryan

And it was we had there's, there's like Australian and British in Scandinavia right over there. And so they would look and say, well, I'm a I'm a therapist of this, this and this. Oh, she'll be great. Just give her some love. In a few months, she'll be talking and walking in all this. It'll be great. She's fine.

- Allie Bryan

So that's our expectation. And then the more he was with us for the first ten days, because he had to be at court and then he flew back to be with the boys and work. And so I was with so I was staying in Jinja mainly, which is where my sister lived. And but it was still extremely lonely with out him.

- Allie Bryan

And I have this daughter that I don't know. And there's no connection. There's no bond. And yet there's that high stress of you have to bond and no one else, you know. So for two months being over there, it no one else was really supposed to hold her, feed her, any of that kind of stuff. And so it was just a high stress not knowing her. I don't know what makes her tick. I don't know what she's thinking to she even understand everything I'm saying.

- Liesel Mertes

It's just very, you know, totalizing.

Yeah, I would imagine. Yeah. No.

- Allie Bryan

Yeah. And she was she was also developmentally. She could sit. But if she fell over, she couldn't get herself back up. She couldn't even go on all fours. You know, and she's almost two. And so it was just the rearranging of expectations. And you know, realizing, oh my gosh, this is this is gonna be a lot different than what all the training on the computer, you know, tried to teach us.

Right.

- Liesel Mertes

Yeah. Well, I imagine then there is the next unfolding chapter of bringing her on to integrate with your other two children. Yes. What? What did that look like?

- Allie Bryan

That looked like me taping masking tape around her chair with enough buffer. Was she eight so the kids wouldn't get her mother? That was literally that that became our world of.

- Adam Bryan

They just wanted to love her and smother her. And that's great. But it's overwhelming. Yeah. And so, you know,

- Liesel Mertes

in the midst of an entire context. Right.

- Adam Bryan

So she was just and and we had been trained on that. Like there's gonna be, you know, different smells and sights and sounds like we get it. Yeah. So look, boys, you have to stay as far away from her.

- Allie Bryan

I have a picture of them standing outside of the tape and her sitting at her chair eating so that she wouldn't be triggered if anyone got close to her food because it was stolen often at the baby home. She because that was that was a big trigger for her thinking her food was gonna be.

- Adam Bryan

Which is pretty typical. Right. And that was expected.

- Allie Bryan

So it was just a lot of a lot of her screaming and being triggered and the kids not understanding why and trying to explain that to them. And it was it was just very high emotion all the time.

- Allie Bryan

So you. Yeah. And feeling completely ill-equipped. Right. And it was. And she was non-verbal, too. You know, like it was there were just so many things that felt stacked against us.

Their daughter's physical and developmental needs also required a lot of attention. She was eligible for Frist Steps, an Indiana program that provides assistance to children with delays. Each week, she had speech therapy, developmental therapy, and physical therapy.

Her progress was sporadic, all of the board. The therapists were confused as months became yeasrs. Why wasn't she progressing? MRIs didn't yield anything definitive.

- Adam Bryan

Yeah, it was really, really difficult because at this stage she's consuming all of our financial resources are physical or emotional or mental. Everything. We are pouring everything into her and everyone else. The children are getting, you know, 5 percent and we're barely even giving each other anything because we're so exhausted and worn out. She's getting everything.

And there's no I remember with with one of the a group with the therapist. One of the last meetings was, you know, we went through everything again.

- Adam Bryan

They said, do you have any questions or concerns? And I said, yeah. There's just no trajectory upward. And they're like, yeah, we we were concerned about that, too. I said, what's the plan? I don't know. I guess we'll just keep doing what we're doing. Yeah, well, that doesn't sound like a really good plan. Clearly, something's not working. This has been two years now. And yeah.

In the midst of these diagnosis, there was a whole swirling emotional world of anxiety and shame.

- Allie Bryan

I was becoming very depressed. I was starting to have a lot of anxiety. And then what you call secondary trauma from living in an in a place with someone that has trauma. And, you know, I was to the point, of course, she was also still in diapers. We couldn't seem to get her potty train. And whenever I would change her diapers, I would start having a panic attack.

- Allie Bryan

And that was one of the it was it happened a lot. But there was one point we'd had her for three years. And I'm having a panic attack while changing her diaper. She's watching me. And my oldest son comes behind me and it's comforting, comforting me saying like, it's okay, mommy, it'll be okay. And that's for me in my heart when it clicked. This is not healthy for anyone. It's not healthy for her to watch her mom have a panic attack while taking care of her. It's not okay that my son is trying to comfort me in this sense, and it's happening all the time.

- Allie Bryan

I was a hot mess and was I would. I often said, like, I'm drowning. And I'd gotten to the point. I never had suicidal thoughts, but I'd gotten to the point of I. I'm just gonna run away. Like Adam is a great dad. He'll be fine with them.

- Allie Bryan

My mother, who was amazing, like in my head, I like I can't do this anymore. I I'm I'm drowning. And then my kids are watching their mom all the time, having panic attacks and crying and not wanting to get out of bed.

- Adam Bryan

And the panic in the stress was, when will this end? You know, when there's no end in sight, right. If there's an end in sight, you can persevere. Persevere on until you. Okay. Like there's an end. It's gonna be hard, but we can't get to the end. But when there's no end in sight and all therapists and physicians are saying we have no clue, it becomes. And you're already drowning in drowning.

- Adam Bryan

Literal drowning is silent. You don't see anyone drowning unless you have a really trained eye from a lifeguard to know what a drowning looks and sounds like because it's silent. And so we're drowning individually and as a family and there's no end in sight.

- Liesel Mertes

And did people did people. No. Did you have voice? Because I think that could be a difficult thing. Yeah. OK, about one. Yeah. How did it feel talking about that? And two, were people able to be helpful to you in that? Or did it feel isolating?

Allie Bryan

And so it was hard to share how difficult it was. But with our close friends, we did. But it still was like, yeah.

- Adam Bryan

I do want to say it fell on deaf ears, but there was no context for them either. So when we say which I don't think we did imagine, you think drowning is silent. We don't even know what to ask for. We don't even know what to say. We don't have the capacity to say, I need you to do this for me. We're just struggling and don't even know how to ask. But when we would, we, you know, talk to our close friends.

- Adam Bryan

They were. To give them a little bit of grace, they were as helpful as they could be, but they had no context for it. And so they weren't helpful.

- Allie Bryan

It was very isolating.

- Adam Bryan

Very isolating. Yeah. And I don't say that to throw them under the bus. They had no context. Or even though the vocabulary when we say shows we're talk reactive attachment disorder, she's struggling through RADS and it's really difficult.

- Liesel Mertes

Tell me a little bit more about what you know, they say,

- Adam Bryan

OK, so reactive attachment disorder or RAD is when the child in almost every adoptive child will have this and even some biological do when they refuse to attach or a bond to the parents. And so they are pushing you away emotionally, physically will push you away and do things to prove that you don't love them.

- Liesel Mertes

So you are feeling like you are drowning? Yes. You have three biological children now in the home. What did you what emerged as the available options for you and how did you begin to try to make away Yahoo!

- Allie Bryan

So it was shortly after I had my last panic attack while changing her diaper. And Adam and I were sitting in our boys room. And I was crying. I was like, I just I can't do this anymore. Like, I know I've said that. But there's some there's a shift of like something else, a change. You know, we had I had randomly talked to some people about this whole dissolving of adoption.

- Adam Bryan

You found mothers in the trenches or whatever isn't discovered. There's a whole community right about this. And in this, the first time we've talked publicly about this, because this gets a really people get shamed. This is this is a really black mark on many families. And they get kicked out of churches, they get kicked out of neighborhoods, they get kicked out of families where the grandparents or the parents will say, you know, how can you do that to a child? How can you consider that and will kick people out of families in shame?

- Allie Bryan

I mean, shame, the biggest.

- Adam Bryan

Very much. And so we found this whole community. Oh, yeah. Other people are struggling through this as well. Okay.

- Allie Bryan

Yeah. Because before then, I had always had the assumption that the if you were to choose to dissolve your adoption, you know, CPS comes in and they could take your biological kids and it be this huge thing.

- Adam Bryan

And that's true.

- Allie Bryan

Right. It can. But I randomly found this. And so for me, I'm like, that's not. Nope, not even an option. And so on this day, randomly found a Facebook group of other families in the same situation as ours.

- Allie Bryan

And so I just posted our story and said, like, what do you do? And within three weeks of me posting that this family emerged and we face time them. And then that it just kind of snowballed from there as well.

- Adam Bryan

And the family had adopted other children with similar needs. And it was a we get it. We understand it. We want her.

- Allie Bryan

Right. There was. There was. And also some other really cool things that like they have connections to Uganda has over us. That was huge for our daughter. Of understanding Uganda and loving it and realizing that she is Ugandan. Like, that's a huge thing 'cause we love that culture and want her to know it. And they also do.

- Allie Bryan

Which was in the Lord kept bringing in these confirmations. And so we decided to, just like a birth mom would give her biological daughter up for adoption. That same legal process is then what we ended up doing. And so this other family had to do their legal process and we had to do ours. And it took a couple months.

- Allie Bryan

And in this time, we didn't share it with hardly anyone, because if you if it gets out and someone just doesn't like you or has, you know, makes assumptions, it can be really.

- Adam Bryan

All it takes is a teacher saying, hey, I heard from one of the children that they're selling their daughter.

- Adam Bryan

Right. And then all the teacher has to do is call CPS and say, I'm a teacher. Here's what. And it goes down or really dangerous and bad.

- Allie Bryan

You need one lie and then you get investigated and kids taken out of your home. And if that doesn't happen for everyone.

- Adam Bryan

But that was scary.

- Allie Bryan

It was really scary. So we're in a situation where we're not. Our kids don't even know. Only close friends and family know we're still drowning. And at this time that our friends, it's that mentality of like, oh. But now you've a light at the end of the tunnel. And so.

- Liesel Mertes

And you're feeling this risk, perhaps? Yes. Yeah. Of What could happen with the involvement of the outside agencies? Yeah.

- Liesel Mertes

I imagine that there's also a risk that you're perceiving of, well, you're still considering moving this child out of your home, really wanting to be concerned that she is well cared for. Absolutely.

- Liesel Mertes

And that's sometimes, you know, that's the you know, the reasons that those outside Agent Wright exist. Right. How are you mitigating that risk? What steps along the way are helping you? Yeah. Feel good about this.

- Allie Bryan

So one of the really cool things was I randomly connected with another mom that had also dissolved an older kids adoption to the same family. And so I was able to get on the phone with her. And we had lots of and it was two years prior. So she was two years ahead of me with the same family, same situation, and was able to ask her questions. And she's been and she's been able to visit them and keeps contact with them.

- Allie Bryan

And so I really got to hear another mom's perspective dealing with the same family as us.

- Adam Bryan

So we were able to enter, in a sense, interview this family through another family. Right. And get some of the nitty gritty details, right? Yeah, I wouldn't actually find on paper. Right.

- Liesel Mertes

And it sounds like. Tell me if I am understands that you also were having legal assistance and.

- Adam Bryan

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

- Liesel Mertes

And that this was this was a transfer.

- Adam Bryan

Yeah. Clearly a legal right. Yeah. Yeah. So there comes a day that was expensive.

Yes. Yeah.

- Adam Bryan

Legal. So there a lot of expensive attorneys and making sure that it is legal and incorrect in that there's no ambiguity as to what's happening with that.

- Liesel Mertes

There comes a day where you are telling me this news, your daughter to your boys and you're making the trip young. Tell me a little bit more of that.

- Allie Bryan

Our oldest son bawled his eyes out and our other one just sat there silent.

- Adam Bryan

They were six and eight. Yeah.

- Allie Bryan

And so. So they. Yeah. They don't want to say supportive but. Okay. They also saw like they saw everything that was going on.

- Adam Bryan

But we end up telling the kids and even you woke up and I mean, were you saying, how do we do this? I'm like one step at a time. And literally the steps were put the bags in the car. OK. Now, what do we do now? We got to get in the car.

- Allie Bryan

And she loved it because she loves just being the center of attention. And so she was an only child at that time in the car ride. And so we had a long car car ride with her, which was enjoyable. And we drove and met the parents that night and had dinner with them. And she just clung to them, which was bittersweet. And then that night we had one last year.

- Adam Bryan

She stayed with us.

- Allie Bryan

We had one last night with her. And then waking up the next morning was really, just really, really difficult.

- Allie Bryan

And so then we brought her to their house and walked around their house. And we got to go show her her bed. And that's where he and I

- Adam Bryan

They had they had a whole bed set up for her.

- Adam Bryan

And, you know, we set her up and talked with her. And that was when we told her, you know, now Nyla's going to stay here. And we were able to express and there was something at that time that happened that we can't articulate it,

- Allie Bryan

But you know your kids looks, you know, the you know.

- Adam Bryan

And she got it. She got what was happening. She understood it. There was there seemed to be. And you correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember it somewhat like there was a sadness, but also like a content.

- Adam Bryan

Like a. Yeah, OK. I get it. Yeah. And then we had to get out quickly before like emotionally we just had to rip it off like a Band-Aid. Okay.

- Allie Bryan

She was. You said it was going in. Yeah. With one of the parents. I can't remember. Like she was totally she was good for like we were we were the ones struggling. Yeah. She just waved to us and we took two days to come back home and stay overnight at a hotel.

- Adam Bryan

We didn't need to, but yeah, we did. So that we could just have. We don't want to jump back into life. Yeah. Yeah.

- Liesel Mertes

What is what words are there. Yeah. Right.

- Allie Bryan

What that is. It was. And so on. That are

- Allie Bryan

The day we transferred her over. We had written a long email because that we're like okay this is what we needed. Send it out to everyone that's in community with us so that they know. And so sitting hitting that send button was extremely difficult and vulnerable because you don't know how you're going to be received.

- Allie Bryan

And so we sent that out and it was just a lot of then interacting with people and having to almost love on other people that. They're just getting this information for the first time. And surprised. And, you know, so

- Liesel Mertes

tell a little bit more about that. Because I, I think that's an interesting dynamic. So you're in the position. Yes, Emily. What are you expecting yourself to be or what are other people expecting to be in your communication there in the immediate stages?

- Allie Bryan

Yeah, a lot of people are having a lot of questions. There is a number of people that were super sweet. But like I need to process this, I'm really to which we completely don't expect. But then, yeah, we're also sitting on the other side. I'll speak for myself like just wanted to go into a hole, you know, and just avoid all of that. Thankfully, most everyone was kind and loving. We've really only lost one really good friend from it that chose to separate themselves from us.

And so the majority that explicitly because.

- Liesel Mertes

Yes, they said what? What did they communicate to you for that parting?

- Adam Bryan

Well, it was for one of the struggles in this situation for us is that we were communicated to on a number levels as A-plus being. We'll see. And if you're not getting C, then you're not doing A or B, you need to either more A or more B, and then you'll get C. Well, we're not getting C, so it must be our fault

- Adam Bryan

in this particular family. How did it had adopted? And it was phenomenal. It's like the storybook of adoption. So. Well. A-plus B or C. And when they found out they were also going through another adoption and it was really painful for them and it was a painful time. Just the time the timing was just bad. And so there was kind of a I can't handle and process that because of what I'm trying to go through. And so there was a a unhinging with her actually not agreeing with the choice. Therefore, there was an intentional distancing, which was incredibly painful.

- Adam Bryan

Hurts. It still hurts.

- Adam Bryan

And so that relationship is, you know, hopefully it will mean that over time. But, you know, there's still there's still distance than there could have been more loss.

- Allie Bryan

There's no running fully. There is for an after a couple of months. I was probably six months after she had left. We ended up deciding to post on Facebook like, let's make this because I was getting tired of running into random people and then them ask and then I'm stuck face to face having to travel. Right. And so I finally got to the point of I just want everyone to know. So we posted the same e-mail we had sent out to everyone else, made it a little bit less personal.

- Allie Bryan

And most people were very understanding. But there was one girl that was extremely mean and hurtful.

And I was just really bullying us on social media because

- Adam Bryan

I had known her when I was early 20s to the church and I haven't had contact with her in a long time. And so she started saying all this stuff and it was like judge judgmental of you, like, oh, wait a minute, you've never met my wife or this child.

- Adam Bryan

You're not at all involved in our life or situation. You're in another state. How how are you speaking as if you haven't talked to you in ten years? How are you speaking? As if, you know, very judgmental. And and she did later apologize.

- Adam Bryan

It was a month or so later, she said, you know, what I said was wrong.

- Allie Bryan

Well, then come to find out her dad had abandoned her as a kid. And so for her, that post was a trigger for her. And so whenever I realized that, like, oh, she was triggered, you know. And so you just never know where someone's coming from and still stay.

- Liesel Mertes

It still stinks.

- Liesel Mertes

If you are summing up like what the what the kernel is of of what you receive when you're feeling either shamed or blamed, what is what is the primary message that you pick up from people?

- Allie Bryan

The first thing that comes to my mind is you failed. Yeah. And that's still thankfully the Lord has provided two years of counseling

- Adam Bryan

And you failed her.

- Allie Bryan

Right. And that's been something I'm I struggle with as I failed as a mom. It wasn't enough for her. And so then when people kind of project that, that's it just kind of reinforces. Yeah. Because I definitely feel like I wasn't enough because now she is thriving and she's doing amazing and her family loves her and

- Adam Bryan

Still delayed delays issues,

- Allie Bryan

though. I'm so, so thankful because that was the ultimate reason. Like we want you to thrive and you're not thriving here with us. It hurts that. Lord, why couldn't she have thrived with us? You know, that's still it's still still a huge pain.

MUSICAL TRANSITION

- Adam Bryan

What's one of the painful difficulties of through counseling as well is this this and this is what so many people don't understand. We're in this state of we've lost a daughter just like death, except she's not dead. She's still alive.

- Adam Bryan

And so you actually have to see her.

- Allie Bryan

And we made the choice.

- Adam Bryan

And we made the choice. Yeah. And so the the loss is similar in that that person is no longer in your life. So there's the loss like death, but not it's different.

- Adam Bryan

And so the church at large and in your community of people, everyone I don't see anyone knows how to deal with death, but a lot of people know how to. Oh, you bring meals and you're there and you write letters and you do this.

- Adam Bryan

But when you say this, people are non-existent, then so will you go and you say, I've lost a daughter and they go, oh, so sorry. And then there's nothing else. And they don't know how to. And. And on one hand, I don't blame them. But on the other hand, it was incredibly difficult.

- Adam Bryan

And so with the kids, everything else. Natalie, we're going to counselling for how do we process loss and grief, which is what we've been working through.

- Allie Bryan

So, yeah, with the kids, it's just a constant. We try to be really open in our communication. We still talk about her like we'll bring up memories.

- Allie Bryan

We kept our family pictures up for a while, but then that was becoming a trigger for me seeing that.

- Allie Bryan

And so it's just being mindful of cause I get triggered a lot even still throughout our house. And I think for me, feeling like there's almost like I only had a small window of time to grieve and to be better. And so that's still the struggle.

- Adam Bryan

And then even with the kids of, you know, one of them is taking longer to grieve and it's two years later starting to come up and just attempting to being patient with this, because it's yeah, there's there's no rulebook on how this looks.

- Allie Bryan

One day, our oldest saw writing, filling out some paperwork for something random. And he came later and told us he was scared that he was filling out paperwork for him to go to another family, that there had been tension with him.

- Liesel Mertes

Yeah. Ali, what do some of those, you know, February 2020 triggers look like for you in any given week?

- Allie Bryan

Well, even this morning, my daughter was in her room crying and that woke me up. And it sounded just like her because that was one of the triggers that she wouldn't sleep a lot. And so she just lay in bed and like make mindless sounds and noises. And so I wasn't getting a lot of sleep at that time. And so this morning I woke up to that sound. And I had to like, no, that's not.

- Allie Bryan

Or even seeing any, any little black girls around. That's a that's a trigger for me that looked like her. Yeah.

- Liesel Mertes

And how does that have a familiar path of emotion that those triggers go down that you you find yourself? Is it sadness, anger that all of the above, you know, sadness and crying?

- Allie Bryan

It happened one time I was hosting our church like welcoming people in and a family came in and the mom was white and the little girl was black. And like, I just started crying. I had to walk away and leave because. And it can feel so foolish or like it's not that big of a deal. Elie Boyer's altogether. But that was really difficult because I still I'm I'm still sad that we can't have her. And so it's just that symbol of.

Yeah, what we've lost.

- Liesel Mertes

You know, what in this journey, have there been meaningful gestures or people that you were like that man that matter that came in just the right time of people who, even if they didn't get the entirety of it, you know, have been helped more along the way. And what did they aren't like?

- Allie Bryan

One of the first things. I had one of my good friends. I think it was really one of the only gestures while we were dissolving. So she was still in our home. She came in, just dropped off a meal on my front porch and wrote a little note and left, which was so sweet for my personality. So I'm more introverted and I was the only.

- Adam Bryan

And that was that was the only like meal or gesture.

- Allie Bryan

And it was so it was so sweet.

- Allie Bryan

And I still remember it. I and I remember shortly after we dissolved. And I I had very frank open conversations with my close friends about how they hurt me. Like I need to get this out. And they were very apologetic. And I think we've all kind of learned from that. But they, too, my friends, came over and helped me like deep clean my house from top to bottom. And that was like that was their way of gesture to help.

- Adam Bryan

But just we had one family give us a gift card to go for. It was like a Chick-Fil-A just, you know, 20 bucks. Yeah. At least that it. It says we see you. Yes. Yeah.

See you here. Like, it's not like we're sitting home going we're we're all of our free meals.

- Liesel Mertes

Right. But it's I see you.

- Adam Bryan

And so whether it's showing up and mowing their lawn or raking them or just doing something saying, I see you're going through a difficult time and yet I can't fix I can't relax, I don't I don't even know how to process this, but I know it's difficult.

And so I'm going to do this

MUSICAL TRANSITION

- Adam Bryan

Was that something they say were some even during even after we transitioned her, there would be weeks and months of nothing. And usually they wouldn't ask us. They would say, hey, how how is she? Have you heard from her? Right. You know, she's fine. But the rest of us are struggling to put our feet in front of it. You know, one in front of the other. Thank you for asking how she is.

- Adam Bryan

You know, that's the smart ass answer. I'd want to get back to them. But you would just say, oh, she's doing great.

- Liesel Mertes

But I hear it left. You feeling still. You still uncertain You haven't even given thought, right? Right. That this could be anything more than a relief. Right.

- Adam Bryan

Yeah. Oh, yeah. The burden is lifted. The sack of rocks you're carrying is now off your back. So you guys would be maybe OK.

- Adam Bryan

It's not a saga rocks. It's a person that we loved and cared for and still do. Yeah.

- Liesel Mertes

Yeah, I hear that. You know, you you have reference throughout. You know, there is not a playbook for this. Yeah, not well equipped. What? What words? I mean, on the one hand, adoption can be beautiful. And that's.

We still love adoption. The thing. Yeah.

- Liesel Mertes

What do you what do you wish could have been said to a younger version of you in hindsight, whether that was beginning or in the midst of it, like or or, you know, reframing it for someone that's listening, that is maybe at a, you know, a number of points sharing their own journey.

- Adam Bryan

I think we would respond differently. But so I'll let you speak first. I'll give you. Yes. Yeah.

- Allie Bryan

The first thing comes to mind is love does not heal trauma and trauma. Brain doesn't always know that.

- Adam Bryan

You're going to say run away.

- Allie Bryan

Yeah. That you you can't out love trauma. In my opinion, no. By a miracle of the Lord, of course. But that was one thing I had to come to grips with. Like, no, there is like there is scientific issues in her brain from trauma as a young child cause she's been through so much. And yeah, you can't you can't out love. I think that's.

- Adam Bryan

But I also think, you know, we were obedient and faithful to what we were called to do. Right. And we were called to adopt her. And then we were called to transition her. And I could sit here for another hour and go through all of those things. And we were faithful to that. And so what would I say is it's going to be hard, but stay faithful to the calling in what is on your heart and how do we.

- Adam Bryan

How do I express this? Just love. Well, for however long that is.

- Liesel Mertes

I think I would also say for anyone, because I get that question from some people like, hey, we're thinking about adoption or thinking.

- Allie Bryan

I think I would encourage people to make sure you have a strong foundation of support, whether that's counseling or church or friends of like, okay, we're going into battle and we need your support because we came in very naively

- Adam Bryan

and didn't recognize you not knowing that we were the only people in a large circle that have that have adopted.

So.

- Allie Bryan

Right. And so we were we kind of just started winging it. And then we got really exhausted winging it. And then we couldn't find the tools because there was not a lot of post adoption tools. There's a ton of adoption tools for adopting and. And raising everyone's for you when you're adopting and they're so excited and they're at the airport when you come home with her and and then and then you're home.

- Adam Bryan

You know, there is not a church. And in society there's not a lot of post-adoption help. Right. It's pretty sparse.

- Liesel Mertes

Are there any other things that you feel like it's important to give voice to that you didn't get a chance to say? I don't think so.

- Allie Bryan

You know, I think just speaking for all like the thousands of families on their Facebook, even just in the Facebook group that I'm in right now, that have that have to go silent because of safety and shame. Just speaking out on their behalf, because we are we are not, you know, just a few.

- Allie Bryan

We are many. And they all deserve a voice and they deserve a voice to be able to share their story without being shamed.

- Adam Bryan

And that it's this is a part of life and dealing with, you know, sin in the world and just that things are gonna go perfectly. So, yeah, that they're not alone.

- Adam Bryan

Yeah. You know, when this happened, we discovered how much pain so many people are in in bars. Even though it was painful and difficult and we lost a relationship not near what other people have gone through, we said we want to be a voice and advocate for everyone else to say take care of these people that are having to go silent, love on them. They're grieving, they're struggling. And when they transition, love on them as if it was a death.

Yes. Yeah. Love on them in the same way. Yeah.

MUSICAL TRANSITION

We close with three take-aways from this conversation with Adam and Allie

• Move towards individuals and families that have experienced a dissolved adoption.These transitions can be full of a lot of pain. Give what you can: a meal, a gift certificate, a house cleaning. Each gesture matters.
• Be aware that the family left behind will most likely need help beyond the transition.Adam, Allie, and their children are still in counseling, processing grief two years after their disrupted adoption. Ask families how they are doing and offer gestures of support beyond the immediate days and weeks after the transition.
• Adoption can be beautiful, complex, and isolating.Allie and Adam talked about how they felt without resources, like they were silently drowning. If you have friends who have adopted, reach out, ask them how they are doing, provide a listening ear. They might be struggling and very much in need of a friend. Or point them to supportive resources, some of which are available in the show notes.
• And this is a bonus, fourth take-away.Adam and Allie described a few people that responded primarily out of their experience: there was the family who had adopted that could not continue to be in relationship. The Facebook commenter who was shaped by her own history of abandonment. We are always responding to other people's pain out of our own experience. If this episode was triggering, eliciting strong emotion, take a moment to ask the question of what personal experience you might be living out of in your response.

Thanks to our sponsor, FullStack PEO, offering comprehensive HR support for small and medium businesses, and Handle with Care Consulting, where we create workplace first responders.

OUTRO

– Karen Ng

Do we mention suicide? Do we use that word? And there was a lot of reluctance. My mom's gut reaction was no. How could we tell people that she took her own life? You know how. How shameful. You know, what would people think? And it would it would. It has implications for the family that somehow it was their fault because she killed herself. And why would she do that? She comes from a good family. She had more than most people in this world and must have something to do with her family.

INTRO

Suicide is complicated and tragic. It is intensely personal, specific to an individual. How suicide is experienced and interpreted also differs between communities and cultures. Today, we are going to talk to Karen. Karen is Chinese American. Since her sister, Karine, committed suicide two years ago, Karen has been on her own journey with grief and loss…and she feels a particular passion to speak to the stigma around mental health among Chinese Americans. I learned so much in this episode and I am confident you will also.

This episode is on the air thanks to the sponsorship of FullStack PEO. FullStack helps emerging companies manage their payroll and benefits. Working with FullStack gives you peace of mind that your people are being taken care of as you grow your company. We are also sponsored by Handle with Care Consulting. Disruption catches managers off guard, unsure of what to do or say to help their people. Handle with Care Consulting delivers interactive workshops that empower your people to give support when it matters most.

Karen lives in Los Angeles. She is a recreational runner, an activity that she took up during her divorce proceedings as a sort of therapy. She also lives with lupus, an auto-immune disease.

- Liesel Mertes

Now, you're a person that has been involved in a couple of causes that are close to your heart. Tell us a little bit about some of the charitable work that you've been involved in.

- Karen Ng

I started a program, a nationwide program for Lupus Support and education in New York back in 2000 and 2002. It's the first of it was the first of its kind. And it addressed the need for support and education to patients and their families of Asian-American descent who lack the kind of knowledge about how to live with a disease, a chronic disease.

Before moving to LA, she was working for the non-profit sector in New York where she worked with the Coalition of Asian American Children and Families as well as Apex, which provides mentoring for underserved youth. This led to a public Health Degree and the launch of Cartwheel Initiative, which brought artists to Sri Lanka. She also launched the Orphans Future Alliance, which funds orphanages in Vietnam.

- Liesel Mertes

So one of the things that you wanted to discuss on the podcast was talking about your family and specifically your sister. Could you tell us a little bit more about your family, about their ethnic background, where you fit in the birth order set that?

- Karen Ng

Yes, we are a Chinese-American family. My parents came over from Hong Kong when they were younger. And I am one of three sisters. I'm the oldest. And then there's Klara and then there's Karinee. So there's Karen, Klara and Karine. We all start with the letter K, so. You can kind of see how we were made fun of when we have the three Ks.

- Liesel Mertes

Yes. And were you shaped powerfully by being the oldest sister, I'm the oldest of four. And I feel like I. I feel like the oldest almost all the time.

- Karen Ng

Definitely. I mean, in Chinese culture, the oldest is, is called judges and judges. Oh. Is always known to kind of take care of her siblings, right? I mean, I needed to be an example for my, my younger sister,

Karine was the youngest sister. And Karen tells how all of the sisters were different, choosing different instruments to study and languages to learn. And Karine had a particular flair.

- Karen Ng

So she was the kind of creative artist of the family. She was just talented in so many ways. She went to New York City to pursue a career in fashion. She graduated from Parsons School of Design. She loved animals. She was the kind of saved they ran, attains a la moon, bear save the planet kind of girl. And she was a devoted mom to her. Her shiatzu was named Chewy, and she even created and launched her own business. Inspired by Chewy, it was called Central Park Pups, and it was a pet clothing company with a patent to design. She called the hit harness, so she was so full of energy. She loved themed events. She would go to the Renaissance Fair every year, get a group of people to go and dress in costume. She or Halloween was her favorite holiday. She loved parties and costumes and events to kind of show off her creative genius.

- Karen Ng

She was a bargain hunter fashionista. She was incredibly resourceful. She could design centerpieces and create special effects for any occasion. She was feisty, gregarious, silly and clever. So, she was just a ball of energy.

The sisters lived in New York together for a while, their lives overlapping quite a bit.

- Karen Ng

Family is the most important. Like you can you always you know, you can depend on your family. Family is the most important. So we always grew up with that kind of mentality.

– Liesel Mertes

You know, for your younger sister, when did you become aware of any mental health issues that she had?

- Karen Ng

So the two years or so before she died, we knew that she was troubled and depressed, she had she had been going through a lot. She had a sudden divorce. And that's why she moved to Las Vegas to start, start fresh, start anew. And she was going through a lot. Relationship wise with an abusive boyfriend. And professionally starting a new business venture with the same person. So, things were complicated and things weren't going well for her. She grew increasingly distant by not responding to texts or emails as often. Whereas before she would, just she's constantly on a phone. She's always texting. So that was different. And she had extreme mood swings. She'd lash out to suddenly the family members in public, like yelling at my mom or insulting me. And she was increasingly hostile. So, we knew that she was struggling. She would call me in tears and tell me how upset she was. I'd listen to her vent. I sent her encouragement cards and books.

- Karen Ng

And we, we knew she needed help. So she, she agreed to see a therapist, but she refused, absolutely refused to take any medications. So, and this was partly, partly because my mom was very strongly against any medications for mental health conditions. And I think it relates to the misconceptions around mental health. And she was highly vocal against it. She thought it changed the person and it was highly detrimental. So she was very adamant. You do not take any medications. And so Karine was influenced and also felt the same way.

- Liesel Mertes

How is that for you in support role? Did you feel like that was a good conclusion? Tell me more about it.

- Karen Ng

Because if she if she would if there was something that could help her. Both my sister Klara and I knew that she might need medications to help control her, her and her mood swings. Her. Her. What was happening to her. And we were very, we found we couldn't we couldn't convince either my mom or Karine to consider that possibility.

MUSICAL TRANSITION

- Karen Ng

There are three kind of brief scenes that flashed through my mind when I think about, you know, the moment or the time when I found out what happened. And these scenes get in my mind there. They're hazy on the details, but try to kind of describe the three dreams.

- Karen Ng

So that day, I was on the treadmill at the gym in the middle of the day. And I you know, I normally don't interrupt my workout when I get a phone call. But I thought it was my, I saw was my mom. So I'd started pick up and she asked me if I had been able to reach Karine because she was really worried. I hadn't. But I promised her that I'd leave the gym and work on finding her. So I called my other sister, Klara, and we tried texting and calling her, but there was no response.

- Karen Ng

So then the next scene in my mind is me walking back home from the gym. And I get a call from my sister Klara, who said Karine had attempted suicide. Her ex-boyfriend had found her and he had called the ambulance and they were taking her to the hospital.

- Karen Ng

So immediately obvious, it was obvious that my sister and I would have to go to Vegas to see her see her in the hospital. We knew it was a serious situation, but we didn't know how serious. And I even joked that I'd, I'd punish her when I went to see her.

- Karen Ng

And then the third scene. The last scene is when I'm at home and I'm taking a shower and I'm anxious and annoyed that I have to suddenly drive to Vegas from L.A., and I get another call. And I pick up even with the shower running and Klara tells me that Karine didn't make it. And I'm like, what do you mean she didn't make it? You know, we're going to the hospital to see her now. You know, that doesn't make sense. So I did not believe her. I did not accept it. I know. I must've hung up and I was screaming in the shower. This isn't happening. I kept repeating it. This isn't happening. This isn't happening. I was yelling at the top of my lungs. I didn't care, you know, who was the apartments kind of small. So, you can kind of hear through the walls. But I was dreaming water spraying all over and I kept screaming the same three words as I was throwing things into my bag.

- Karen Ng

And I said, this isn't happening. This is not happening. And as if, you know, my words could transform the reality into a dream. Because I didn't think this was happening. So what was the immediate recollection of what happened.

- Liesel Mertes

I'm so sorry. That's. This is horrible news to receive. You know about your sister. And as, as much as there are those, those three scenes of the immediate. Then there's all of the logistics and communicating with family.

- Liesel Mertes

Did your mom, with her particular feelings about medication or about mental health? Was there a particular way in which she received the news of her daughter's suicide? Because it sounds like maybe there, there was some reticence or shame issues around mental health that I imagine someone's death could only magnify those in some ways that the.

- Karen Ng

At first, they didn't really think of it as a mental health or issue. They thought of it as a problem. It's like a puzzle that needed to be solved. Something happened that caused her to do what she did. So, they kept replaying the details of finding out what happened that day, in the days before about what argument she got into with, you know, the ex-boyfriend didn't.

MUSICAL TRANSITION

- Karen Ng

I think what is a little more relevant is the way she decided to take her own life. She actually had thought it through. And it wasn't a spur of the moment decision. She. I had learned how to connect the tailpipe or the, the way you connect to the car so that, you know, you know, you have carbon monoxide poisoning in the car. So. She had figured out a way to do it, had planned to park the car outside of a different, different house where there was no. No video, security cameras and so there were elements, there were things that suggested she had planned to do this. Even though the kind of haphazard, less like note that she scribbled off on pieces, the scratch paper, her last goodbyes were, were very brief and in wouldn't I wouldn't even call it a suicide note.

– Liesel Mertes

I mean, I'm imagining you are a grieving sister. You're also the, the oldest daughter in your sibling. You know, order. And as you alluded to, the certain expectations with being the oldest, you are also the daughter to grieving parents. What kinds of things were you finding were being asked of you emotionally in that immediate aftermath? What sort of roles were you playing?

- Karen Ng

When you ask that, first thing I think of is, it is being asked, well, why didn't you know? You know, how could you not know? You're the older sister. So didn't she? Didn't she tell you it was wrong? So, of course that wasn't very helpful because that me meant I failed her. And I wasn't there to. Your help her. Through her troubles. That's a hard question they have to carry. It was it wasn't a question those directly asked by people. It was more I mean, mostly my mom. Right, so I don't think, I don't think people would be that insensitive to imply you.

- Liesel Mertes

Yeah, well, that brings us to something that we've discussed of the particularities of suicide within the Asian-American community. What, what were you feeling that your broader community was communicating to you, to your parents about what it meant to walk through suicide as a family?

- Karen Ng

So immediately after this happened, we had to decide whether or not to disclose, you know, cause of death. In writing her obituary and kind of sharing the news, do we mention suicide? Do we use that word? And there was a lot of reluctance. My mom's gut reaction was no. How could we tell people that she took her own life? You know how. How shameful. You know, what would people think? And it would it would. It has implications for the family that somehow it was their fault because she killed herself. And why would she do that? She comes from a good family. She had more than most people in this world and must have something to do with her family. So, it took a lot of convincing to persuade my mom that being truthful about the situation was the way we needed to go. We had to face the truth and not hide.

- Karen Ng

And I was so proud of my dad when he stood up at the memorial service in front of the entire crowd of family and friends and, and said that Karine died by suicide. And confronting it in your head on. You know, I I did not expect that. And suicide is just not talked about.

- Liesel Mertes

I imagine that could feel profoundly lonely.

- Karen Ng

And seeing a therapist, like I said, is is a sign of weakness. And there's a lack of, there there's a lack of actual culturally competent mental health services. So, when I was looking for a therapist, I really wanted someone who understood my background, you know. There's so many cultural nuances, language wise and behavior wise, that it would just take too much time to explain to a non-Asian therapists. You know, they just wouldn't get it. So, you know, it was it took me it I tried to find a, an Asian therapist, and it wasn't it wasn't that easy.

- Liesel Mertes

How about within your your friends and family? Did you feel like they had language or meaningful gestures to come alongside you in a way that mattered? Like, what were they doing? Were they bringing food or they send a note?

- Karen Ng

So one of the most helpful things that someone did for us in the aftermath was do a meal delivery service. I think that was a complete lifesaver. She set up a meal train where people could contribute to help pay for a meal delivery service. So every, every night or every, you know, all our dinners were, were, you know, already set up for us and not having to decide and prepare what to eat every day was so helpful. Because, you know, you have no appetite and we just eat what was put in front of us. And that was important because we needed to eat.

- Liesel Mertes

Any other things that people did that felt important?

- Karen Ng

Yes. Another helpful thing was somebody was a kind of like a point person to serve as the information deliver, you know, via Facebook. He, he shared the details of the memorial and other other, other helpful things, so that took the burden off of us.

- Karen Ng

So it gave us our space to, to mourn and concentrate only on the relevant details of what we needed to do for the service and not to interact with, you know, so many other concerned people.

- Liesel Mertes

Yeah, in the midst of that, was there anything that people said or did that even if they weren't meaning, it felt really hurtful?

- Karen Ng

Well, everyone everything that was said was met well-meaning, but may not have been received that way, for example. When there's a couple phrases that really, really irked me. One was she's in a better place and no, she's not. She's dead. I just kept think issues in no place. And I don't want her there. I want her here. So that was not helpful. Yeah. And then the other one was. Everything happens for a reason. No, there's absolutely no reason why my sister is dead. Yeah.

- Liesel Mertes

What are some of the things for someone who has not had a relative commit suicide that make that first year particularly hard?

- Karen Ng

It's hard to even just open up the conversation about suicide. It's hard to, I have to explain what happened or will have to decide how much to share and, and in meeting new people who, who didn't know are it's also. How do you share? You know, when people ask about your family, you know, how many siblings do you have? Well, what do you say? So that was that does the hardest part in the first year. I, I struggled with whether to say, oh, I have well, I have one sister or I have two sisters. And now I, you know, I have come to the point where, I mean, I'm proud to say that I had I had two sisters, I have two sisters because I've always had two sisters my entire life. You know, I can't negate the fact that she's, she's been a part of my life for 38 years. So, I have two sisters. One of them is no longer here.

- Liesel Mertes

Yeah, if what you say is one of the most common misconceptions that people have about suicide, if you you could say of only people like grasped this part of what it is to have someone commit suicide.

- Karen Ng

That only people with severe mental illnesses die by suicide. Because Karine was a highly functioning, accomplished businesswoman who was a property manager, she was a property manager, a businesswoman, house fixer, upper, she. She was, you know, very productive, socially functioning adult. And she was not diagnosed with any mental illness. So, that's not a requirement. Yeah. And I know that.

- Liesel Mertes

Speaking about suicide, particularly as it relates to the Asian-American community, is important to you. What would you say? And you've talked a little bit around this, but what are some of the particularly harmful assumptions within the Asian-American community about suicide? And this is, this is a.. Is it actually. When I say Asian-American, is that like too broad, too? Is it meaningful to you to talk about Chinese American? Like I'm suddenly struck that that might be the equivalent of saying to someone who's black, like, tell me about an African perspective. And then like, I'm Ghanaian, I'm not African. So, I submit that to you. Is that like an appropriate term to talk about Asian-American or?

- Karen Ng

I think that it's distinct. There's a is a big distinction between Asian and Asian-American. So, yes, better to say Asian-American because ah, our experiences and, and our culture is different from being saying Asian. But you're right that it is kind of generalizing all the different ethnicity.

- Liesel Mertes

Forgive me for that. I would like to speak more accurately.

- Karen Ng

I mean, I. I can always speak to my Chinese. Yeah. Experience. But. Let me ask you that.

- Liesel Mertes

Thank you. Thank you for your graciousness in that. As I said, I am on my own learning curve about caring well, about different nuances within that. So, thank you for your kindness and even answering about Asian-Americans. Let me ask you, what are the particular challenges within a Chinese-American community of around suicide if you think like this is a really harmful assumption that this community has?

- Karen Ng

Well, I think even the word in Chinese for what mental illness is? The word is some *Chinese word*. Even that has negative implications because if you break it down, some *Chinese word* means crazy and illnesses and *Chinese word* is illness. So it's some *Chinese word*, crazy illness and some *Chinese word*. *Chinese word* means mental hospital. So it's like crazy hospital. It's like the loony bin. The, the you know, the place where a mentally deranged people go. So, it's so stigmatizing. That it prevents people, you know, from seeking help or anything to anything to do with mental illness. Kind of. In general is this no shrinking back response or. Oh, no. It's recoiling when even hearing the word no. So that that is very harmful.

- Liesel Mertes

What word of insight would you give to someone who is perhaps listening and they have just recently lost someone? Specifically, if they're from a Chinese American community.

- Karen Ng

Well, I would encourage them to find and speak to someone who's had the same experience or going through the same thing to. To know that they're not alone. They don't have to be going through this alone, that there are other people that this happens to other people. And defined the, you know, to find that community that. That is going to help their healing. It doesn't have to be in the Chinese community.

- Liesel Mertes

Yeah. And if someone is listening and they and they think, oh, I have, you know, I've got a coworker or a friend or a family member and they're going through something similar. And I, I want to be a good friend. What should I do? I feel really awkward and I don't know what to do. What words of insight would you offer to them?

- Karen Ng

Insight would. Inside would probably be that. A person's sense of time is going to be completely warped and they're going to be very just completely distracted. So, expect them to be unfocused. And if in the workplace of view, if you're only given some straightforward directions or one project at a time. That's, that's preferable because, you know, probably just concentrating on existing. And, maybe you'd be aware be. Be sensitive to, to what you're saying. In just in a general context, because I remember being hypersensitive to certain conversations, you know, just overhearing people, you know, talking about their their, their weekends about, you know, going out and partying and getting wasted and, and doing all these, you know. People's activities are just it just completely tick me off. Yeah, we start to hear things in a different light. So.

- Karen Ng

So just to be sensitive. How to maybe how to help someone who's going through the same thing it would have been would have been helpful for me to know what kind of resources are out there. If someone had actually done the research and looked at local support groups or events or, or therapists, it would have made it easier for me to find that support earlier.

- Liesel Mertes

Yeah. Yeah. This great point that it's, it's such additional work in the midst of grieving to have to go through the logistics and do the research on. Are there are other things that you would like to add about your story or about holding it within your community that you feel you didn't get to give voice to?

- Karen Ng

The idea. I need to convey is positive mental health is critical to physical health. And I've learned that. Clearly with my lupus, because one of the triggers of lupus is stress, so we're constantly encouraged to minimize stress because it can cause inflammation.

- Karen Ng

And so, the mind body connection is so powerful and, and with and also with lupus, lupus, it can be invisible. So, meaning you can look fine with the help of a little makeup maybe. And there can be but there can be inflammation in your body. So, with grief as well, you can look fine and go about doing your business, but there can be great pain happening inside.

MUSICAL TRANSITION

Here are three key take-aways after my conversation with Karen…

• Our community helps to shape our reality.Karen talked about the particular challenges within a Chinese-American community: the reluctance to seek help for depression or mental illness, the pressure to be strong. What kind of a culture are you a part of when it comes to grief and loss? Is it an open one that allows space for those that struggle? Or is it one that forces people to bury their struggles? How can you be part of co-creating a more life-affirming culture?
• In the aftermath of a suicide, loved ones can be unfocused and adrift.Karen talked about the importance of getting very straightforward directions, taking one project at a time. For managers or coworkers, be aware of this element of distraction and adjust your workflow accordingly. Perhaps this means streamlining tasks and having more regular check-ins in those first few months.
• There is great power and importance to listening to the experience of people that come from a background or context that is different than your own, especially if you are part of a majority culture.You will not immediately resonate with or understand their perspective…in translating cultures or navigating grief, you will most-likely make mistakes along the way. If you make a mistake, like I did in referring to Asian-Americans instead of Chinese Americans, accept correction, apologize, and try to modify your perspective moving forwards.

Thanks again to our sponsor, FullStack PEO, the forward-thinking benefits company that serves emerging companies and to Handle with Care Consulting, training your staff to be Workplace First Responders.

OUTRO

And I think that was when I really learned that, you know, all our healing doesn't happen at the same time. I think I was very impatient to just get better. I just wanted everything to go away. And I didn't realize that, you know, I had accumulated trauma from some past events and then from this event. And there was so many different aspects to healing.

INTRO

Today, we are talking about post-traumatic-stress disorder: what it looks like in the life of one woman after a medical accident AND how you can help someone that has lived through something awful, and it still bearing the effects.

We are sponsored, today, by FullStack PEO. FullStack PEO is company devoted to small businesses. FullStack offers turnkey HR for emerging companies. And we are sponsored by Handle with Care HR Consulting, helping you support your people when they need it most.

I first met my guest, Elsie Iudicello, in college. Elsie has an infectious laugh that bubbles over. She traveled to Honduras, digging wells for impoverished people. And she was a great dancer. These days, Elsie can be found in Florida where she homeschools her four boys. And you might have a pre-conceived notion of what that looks like. But you would probably be wrong.

Liesel Mertes

You make homeschooling look really cool. You have like homeschooling alligators and crawdads. It's like it's very intense looking homeschooling. Tell me a little bit about your boys.

Elsie Iudicello

So, I have four boys. The eldest is about to turn twelve and my youngest is seven, and we homeschool all of them. They are. They all have very different personalities, but they all have a beautiful wildness about them, about their childhood. That is really precious. It's interesting to see how long their innocence has been sustained throughout their growing years just by virtue of being home schooled, spending a lot of time in nature.

Elsie Iudicello

And yeah, it's I always feel like as they're growing up like a big treasure hunter, they're just I'm seeing things and they're also slowly revealing things about themselves. And it's a real gift to be their mom.

Liesel Mertes

What was one of the most impactful moments of today for you?

Elsie Iudicello

Well, it's gorgeous in Florida right now. It's truly beautiful. I'm sorry for anyone that is buried in snow right now, but it is beautiful here right now. We wait for it all year. And, you know, my boys are outside all day building forts and making weapons out of sticks. And at one point, my son, my youngest, called me out there. He is not neurotypical. So, it's always interesting what kinds of insights he has and what moments he chooses to deliver them in this afternoon. He called me out there and we made a fort together and. He kept saying it's so important for moms to build forts with their boys. He kept saying that over and over again, and I asked him why is it so important for mothers to build forts with their boys? And he said, so they can play so their heart, so their hearts can play together, so they can play together in their hearts. And he started talking about something we talk a lot about as a family, which is the idea of fullness vs. busyness. And he started saying how much he loves the fullness of his life and that any time I feel like I'm getting too busy, busy, I should come outside and enjoy the fullness of life with him. And that was a pretty big moment in my day. It kind of turned it around, actually.

In addition to their four boys, Elsie cares for a host of chickens, some goats, a few cats, a dog, and a pig.

She is a writer, contributing monthly to the Wild and Free magazine. And, although she hates flying, Elsie also travels, speaking at conferences and events that reach mothers, regardless of school choice.

Elsie Iudicello

I think it's important to realize that, you know, different kinds of schooling work for different kinds of kids and that children can still have a really wonderful, wild and preserved childhood even if they are going to traditional schools. And that's been really encouraging to see to just moms that really love their kids and want to fight for their childhoods.

Liesel Mertes

Well, I appreciate you coming on the podcast. We wanted to discuss some disruption that happened as you were in the midst of your childbearing years. Could you set the scene as to where you were in life when you had this accident that it happened?

Elsie Iudicello

Sure. So, we were living in Miami at the time my husband was a grad student. He was earning his Ph.D. And I had a two-year-old and a 1 year old and we were living in a small house just off of campus. My whole family is in Miami. My four grandparents, my parents, several aunts, uncles, cousins, and a very robust church family. So thankfully, we were not in a position of isolation or loneliness. We were just newlyweds with a lot of babies.

Elsie was pregnant with her third son at the time of the accident, when a brand-new doctor botched her care. Elsie was exhausted. She did not know that she was carrying twins and had just miscarried one of the children. Her doctor didn't realize either and said that she was, maybe, suffering from lymphoma.

Elsie Iudicello

And I was very taken aback by that. And I had mentioned at the start of the visit that I had an allergy to a certain kind of medication. And for whatever reason, she chose to prescribe that medication to me. And I was in such a state of grief and bewilderment. And because I don't have a pharmacology license. I did not understand what the label said. It didn't say the name of the drug I was allergic to. It had another name, but it was in that family. And so, I took that medication.

Elsie Iudicello

And very quickly, my body started to shut down and I went into complete anaphylaxis. Jeff drove me to the hospital. We called family that were able to get to our house very quickly. And if you've ever had the experience of going to the E.R. and waiting hours and hours to be seen, that is great, because it means it's not super urgent. I just remember walking in through the doors and it just being absolute chaos. They had to get me back there, start all kinds of intravenous lines, pump all kinds of drugs, and I could feel my body shutting down.

Elsie Iudicello

So, having that experience of, you know, feeling yourself dying is, is a very, very, very vivid and painful and surreal thing to experience. And unfortunately, thankfully, they were able to save me. Unfortunately, it took a long time for the anaphylaxis process to resolve because I had they put me on steroids, which suppressed the reactions. But every time I ran out of steroid medication, the anaphylaxis would flare up again and I would end up in the hospital and stuff.

So, Elsie has the awful, traumatic experience of anaphylactic shock. And then she keeps dealing with flare-ups.

Elsie Iudicello

I remember one day my college roommate, Jocelyn, who had moved to Miami, was over for dinner with a colleague of hers. And it was that day my steroid had run out and I walked to the kitchen to get something in. My heart started racing and it was incredibly painful, and I collapsed. And the next thing I knew, I was on a gurney in the ambulance on my way to the hospital again.

Elsie Iudicello

And they started checking for pulmonary embolisms and oh, my goodness, all confusing.

Elsie Iudicello

I was diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder and there were many sights and sounds and smells that became embedded in my cellular memory and began triggering panic attacks. So, I do remember that by the fourth and fifth visits and this was to the same hospital. So of course, they had thorough records of what was happening. They realized that there was probably something else going on because my body would start mimicking an anaphylactic reaction even though I wasn't having one. So, by the end, by the last visit, I was no longer anaphylactic. But because the steroids would run out, any little sensation that felt akin to the anaphylactic reaction would have caused my body to imitate one. So, my skin, for example, when I got home after the first hospital visit, I was covered inside and outside with hives, and my digestive system had been burned really badly. So, I couldn't sleep for many, many days. I would sleep maybe 30 minutes at a time and then be awake for hours and hours and hours because my heart was racing or because I was just so uncomfortable for all from all of the hives. And I was also afraid to eat anything lest I have another anaphylactic reaction.

Liesel Mertes

You're the mom of two small children. At the same time, which sounds really totalizing. What? So, for someone who has not dealt with up to this point PTSD, what, what are some of the things that you feel like are really important to be understood that like the average person doesn't get?

Elsie Iudicello

I don't think I realized how all-consuming it is. Some my very limited experience with PTSD was. Was probably just in the realm of film and TV where someone would hear some little thing and, you know, have a panic attack or something. And that was it. I didn't realize all the things that can come with it.

Elsie Iudicello

I didn't realize that it's almost like another person living in the house all of a sudden tell me that I didn't realize the.

Elsie Iudicello

I just mean that it's, it's like this new entity that you have to get to know and understand and figure out, but you hate them, and you don't want them there. So, it's difficult to get to know something that you hate so much.

Elsie Iudicello

I didn't really understand all of my different triggers, all of the things that would send me into a panic attack. I don't think I was prepared for the deep level of exhaustion that comes with it. And I know I was newly pregnant, so I think at first, I had a tendency to write off any exhaustion to the pregnancy, but it was a kind of exhaustion that I'd never known before. And I see now that a lot of that was the PTSD. And at times my brain would be very foggy. So, there would be people trying to reason with me about things, not understanding that.

Elsie Iudicello

It has nothing to do with logic, but it could clearly communicate that because I was so tired, I was so sleep deprived, my brain was so foggy, I was so malnourished, all these other things that it's really not a logic issue. And that was not something that I could clearly describe at all,

Liesel Mertes

What were some of the ways that people made you feel most supported in those early days of dealing with PTSD? And I a phrase that purposefully, because I imagine there are aspects where support looks a little bit different in the seasons that come after, but in those early days, how are you best supported by the people around you?

Elsie Iudicello

It was the friends that didn't try to fix the situation because we definitely had some well-meaning people that came over and just thought, you just need to be cheered up. You just need to get over it. Or saying things like, remember your babies, you should be happy that you have all these babies. You're so blessed. You should be happy and strong for them. So, the people that helped you were the ones that didn't try to fix things, that didn't try to hurry us out of grief or sadness. The friends that would come and just sit next to the gurney in the hospital and hold my hand. The people that, you know, would say I had one friend in particular that just she was like, I heard you had really bad hives and that you were uncomfortable.

Elsie Iudicello

And I know you love P.G. Woodhouse. So, here is a book and some Benadryl and I love you. And that was that was so gracious and so good because she wasn't trying to rush me out of anything.

Elsie Iudicello

And of course, we had a lot of friends that would just show up with meals or come and play with our kids. It was really difficult to not be able to play with my children at that time because their desire to play did not decrease when my ability to play decreased. So, it was really good to have friends that would just come over and throw themselves on the floor with my boys and play with them.

Liesel Mertes

I imagine, I mean, birth is no small thing also. And to be pregnant and going through all of this upheaval, then you have bringing a child into world and especially, especially the infants. They're pretty unrelenting. What did that look like as a chapter in your journey with PTSD? Was there a particular anxiety or apprehension that you felt heightened as you approached your due date?

Elsie Iudicello

Sure. Well, I was on bed rest for the last eight weeks of my pregnancy, which was very difficult because I could hear my little boys playing in the house. My mom would come over every day and watch them and I could hear them, and I was stuck in bed with a lot of fear. So, I think I wrestled with a lot of that stuff while I was on bed rest.

Elsie Iudicello

But the other side of this whole coin is that when I was in the hospital, I can't remember which visit it was, but they looked at my blood levels and realized I was still pregnant, and they advised me to terminate. Kind of gently advised that I consider that due to my health, due to the amount of medications that had been pumped into me, the radiation, all these other things, and I said no. And I always saw my son as a fighter. And I could not believe that he survived all of that with me. And so, in a lot of ways, I felt less alone. I felt like he was my teammate. Like he was my my brother in arms. You know, he, he fought every step of the way with me. And I felt like. It was not birthing him alone. It really felt like something we would be doing together.

Elsie Iudicello

And it's really interesting how he was born at home. They had kind of said always going to have all these issues. And I saw my midwife and, you know, we went for the extra ultrasounds and everything looked good. And I went into labor in Florida. You are legally not allowed to give birth at home before thirty-seven weeks and thirty-six weeks. In a couple of days, I went into labor. So, we went to the hospital and my midwife said, I don't want to be insulting, but you kind of remind me of those of those, those faithful lovely dog moms that are about to give birth to puppies. And then a storm comes, and they hide, and they wait until the storm is over and then they give birth. And it was very much like that.

Elsie Iudicello

I was actually in labor for seventy-seven hours. And I think a lot of that. And it was, you know, contractions every ten minutes. It was it was labor, and it was seventy-seven hours. And it was. Oh, it was terrible. It's terrible, but that. That last day I was able to go home because I hit thirty seven days and I worked in my garden and I have a very visceral memory of being on my hands and knees with my fingers in the dirt and my belly, like just kissing the earth a little bit because I was extremely large and, and feeling the contractions and then going inside and a couple of hours later giving birth in our living room. And there were in something very redeeming and very fitting. It felt like a like a victory for both of us to have come that far together.

Liesel Mertes

That's a beautiful story and a very long labor. I hear you. That's a long, year long as you think about how PTSD, because I imagine it's not it's not tidy. It's like, well, that that is a beautiful and poetically told moment and that it wasn't like, OK, so now you've had the baby and that chapter's done now and you move on to the next thing and taking on the next challenges. How has the shadow of that medical accident and your journey afterwards, how does that continue to play itself out?

Elsie Iudicello

I think in the in the first year, it was obviously. It was horrible. I mean, there's no way to sugar coat it. I became intensely afraid of doctors. And even when I went to the hospital with my initial labor, I just remember the poor nurse trying to put trying to give me an I.V., which is saline. And I kept having her read the label to me over and over and over. And I think she had read it like eight times before I let her hook it up and then taking my kids to the pediatrician. You know, if they needed to get the shot or any kind of medication, just, you know, compulsively calling over and over again. And interestingly enough, that never left me. And just last year, my son had a prescription filled out and it seemed like a very strange amount of medication. And I called and sure enough, they had made a very big mistake with the dosage. And I'm glad I checked because that would have been horrible. So, you know, that mistrust of, of doctors was something very profound that followed for a long time.

Elsie Iudicello

I did suffer from severe panic attacks. I think the best way to describe it is that. You know, if you have something that triggers your adrenaline, a car backfire or something like that, and your adrenaline starts moving. Once you recognize that it was just a car backfire, you can get yourself to calm down. It took me years to get to a place where I could calm down once my adrenaline started going. Once it started, it would just keep going and going and going and going and going. And then, you know, an hour later I would just feel like I had run a marathon. And I didn't realize over the years that I was suffering from adrenal fatigue. That was a big piece in figuring out my health. Part of the reason I didn't know about it is because not a lot of people talk about it. But then also I was really reluctant to actually see a doctor that was not a midwife or a dentist.

Elsie Iudicello

So, you know, having those panic, panic attacks in front of my children because we are home all day and I know a lot of people would ask, why on earth are you home schooling if you have a mental illness? And. I never really knew what to say to people when they would say that because even though I had a mental illness. I also had a life and I also had dreams for my children and a lot of love for them. And I had a lot of passion for education and for home schooling. And yes, it was hard. Having panic attacks in front of my children was a hard and brutal thing. But you know what? In many ways and they'll, they'll speak to this today, the ones that remember them more vividly. My oldest said maybe a couple years ago that when he would see me have those. And he is a very sensitive, empathetic person. He's one of the most empathetic people I know. He says that watching that from a young age taught him how to sit in sadness with someone, how to just be present with someone that is sad and to. Not feel uncomfortable and not feel like you need to fill the silence. But to just be beside someone and love them through whatever it is that they're going through.

Elsie Iudicello

And I've realized that I think sharing openly with my kids in age appropriate ways. They were able to grow in their empathy and in their care for people that are hurting, and there's a lot of adults I know that don't know how to do that. So, I'm really thankful that we've had the opportunity as a family to grow in that area, even though it's come at a tremendous cost

Liesel Mertes

For someone who has not experienced a panic attack. What did that what did that feel like in your body and what did that look like to other people?

Elsie Iudicello

They changed a little over the years. There was one day when Jeff dropped a fork and it hit another stack of silverware, I think from the little caddy that inserts into the dishwasher and they clattered to the floor and the noise startled me and I fell to my knees and ended up in the fetal position on the floor. You know, breathing heavily and it's, it's hard because I knew it was just forks and I kept telling myself, it's just forks, it's just forks, it's just forks, what my adrenaline kept running away and I started shaking. And it's sometimes it's painful. It's always exhausting.

Elsie Iudicello

There have been times where I've had the type of panic attack, where it's out of body and I'm somewhere else entirely. And that usually happened early on. If I heard a siren at the wrong moment, I was more prone to panic attacks. If I hadn't slept well, if I hadn't had enough to eat. If I hadn't been drinking well.

Liesel Mertes

But, you know, when you're when you have a newborn, you're always well rested and well-fed. So always.

Elsie Iudicello

So that first year was particularly brutal. I've had I did go to counselling and went through EMDR sessions with my therapist. And that was tremendously helpful to sort through, to revisit and sort through the trauma and put everything. In its place, and I think that was when I really learned that, you know, all our healing doesn't happen at the same time. I think I was very impatient to just get better. I just wanted everything to go away. And I didn't realize that, you know, I had accumulated trauma from some past events and then from this event. And there was so many different aspects to healing. There was the physical healing, the emotional healing, the relationship healing. I mean, Jeff was in grad school and this happened, and he had to carry the load in our home for a long time. And there was a lot that we had to work, work through in that regard. There were a lot of relationships that I handled badly because my perceptions were just off. There were a lot of friendships that I lost simply because especially college friendships, simply because I lost touch.

Elsie Iudicello

I fell off the radar and I missed weddings and I missed birthdays and I missed babies being born. And that was that was hard. It was hard to have that moment. I think when I kind of I think I needed to give all of myself to my immediate circle as much as I could to my immediate circle. I didn't have a lot left for the outer rings. And when I was finally able to turn my head and look at the outer rings of my life, all those people that were on those other planes, I had missed so much. It was really hard. It was really hard reconnecting those as you were feeling.

Liesel Mertes

I mean, I hear in that the sense of. Yeah. I mean, I was consumed with what was right in front of me. Who were who are the people that were really able to press in to that messiness in a way that was meaningful and supportive. And what did that look like from them?

Elsie Iudicello

I would say that the first one was Jeff, the first one was my husband. He would get up early to grade papers. He was a T.A. at the time and then he would go and again, I wasn't sleeping a lot at night. So, you would let me sleep in and he would go wake up all the boys. We had all three kids still in diapers. At this point. So, he would change three different diapers. Feed the older two breakfasts. After the baby was born, he would bring me the baby so that I could nurse him. And then he would go to school and then he would check in throughout the day. And thankfully he was close by. But. Sometimes would drop everything and come home to support me. He built me that beautiful garden in front of our house because he knew that, that it would be a good place for me to heal. And he also didn't discredit me just because I was battling a mental illness. I think sometimes there is that temptation to think that we no longer know ourselves just because we're going through that mental struggle. But Jeff never did that to me. He always listened and he always took what I said seriously. And if he felt that maybe there was another perspective I needed to hear, he found ways to, to introduce that topic and to speak gently about it. He was always very gracious.

Elsie Iudicello

There were friends at church to. Again, that. Didn't forget who I was before the accident, but also appreciated that some pretty. Pretty big things had changed in my life that left me changed. It was always really hard when someone would say something like, well, why don't you do this with us? Used to always love doing that. And.

Elsie Iudicello

And it was it was good to have friends that just recognized that there were certain things I had to set aside because I just wasn't capable of doing them anymore. But at the same time that I was still myself, if that makes any sense. They were just. I think they were just very sensitive in the way that they loved me. Part of it was that they listened, I think was the big thing. We had a lot of people that stopped by with their mouths full of advice and. Didn't maybe have ears that were ready to listen to what was going on. So, I think people that came over ready to just listen was really, really nice.

Liesel Mertes

As someone who has had some years of experience of, you know, living and walking with this, what whether it's a word of hope or insight, what would you or or maybe just commiserating, what would you say to someone who's listening?

Elsie Iudicello

I was going to say, can the first words be, I'm so sorry. I think I would say. Firstly, don't wait to get help. Don't wait to find someone that you can share your story with. And fight. Do whatever you can to get in to be seen by someone that can walk you through everything. Because it's not something that you have to battle alone. It doesn't have to be a shameful secret.

Elsie Iudicello

Get in to see someone soon and also know that. You know, there are. That there are many facets to the body and that there are many different approaches to healing. And I think when I first was diagnosed with PTSD, I just assumed that that would mean a lifetime of hard-core medication. And that has not been my particular story. There have been a lot of I. And I want to be clear, I did go on medication. That was absolutely something that I thought I had to do at the time. But it was certainly not something that I had to engage with for the rest of my life. There were other. Alternatives that I was able to go after and incorporate. And then I would also say to just.

Elsie Iudicello

To just be prepared to persevere. You know, I don't I don't think I quite realized that this would be something that I would carry for such a long amount of time. And I'm really thankful that I have people around me to support me, I know you asked a lot about initial relationships, but even now in my life I have. A lot of really wonderful support, and that's not something that I ever take for granted.

Elsie Iudicello

And I know that there are a number of PTSD support groups out there for different people. So, if you are someone that is a little more isolated or just does not have a good community and reach out to one of those groups, it may feel awkward at first, but honestly, having. Someone just acknowledge what you're going through or to say I have those same symptoms or that happened to me as well. There, there is something, something is the right word, but I guess it just throws the light on everything and it makes it feel less dark and manly.

Liesel Mertes

Do you have any words for someone who they would say someone that I love, or a friend or coworker is dealing with PTSD and I have no idea what to do?

Elsie Iudicello

I think there's a lot to be said for picking your moment to be firm about something. I know that I had some well-meaning people in my life that wanted to push me in certain areas really, really, really quickly or that fought me on things that, looking back now, we're not really that important. And it just added a lot of mental strain and frustration.

Elsie Iudicello

So, I know it's annoying sometimes to have someone that is all of a sudden afraid of so many things or that is struggling through something that feels very small. I still remember being afraid of shampoo. I was really afraid that there was a chemical in the shampoo that was going to trigger or something. I had a lot of irrational fears and I and I get that that was, you know, nonsensical to people that had an experience, what I experience. But, you know, that was maybe not something that needed to be the hill anyone needed to die on that day to try to figure out how to move forward. So, I think, you know, certainly there is a time, especially if someone is not wanting to get help or is. Maybe struggling with a lot of darker thoughts, even if you're just suspecting it and they haven't even said it out loud yet. You know, really choose your moment to be firm.

Elsie Iudicello

Well, and just keep loving them. Keep loving them, because ultimately that's what we really, really need is to know that we're still loved even though we have been so radically changed.

MUSICAL TRANSITION

Here are three reflections from my conversation with Elsie

• If you care for someone that is living with PTSD, choose carefully where you want to push them.There are concerns, fears, and reactions that will not make logical sense to you. As Elsie shared, love, listening and support is oftentimes what is needed most
• In Elsie's words, is your mouth full of advice or are you ready to listen?People who were quick to give answers were rarely comforting. Instead, bring a meal or a book by a favorite author. Play on the floor with children or just sit in silence. Laugh with them about old jokes, all of this can be much more meaningful than giving advice.
• Elsie talked about how important it was that Jeff did not discount her, even though she was living within a mental struggle.When you interact with someone living with PTSD, be careful not to quickly write them off, minimizing their concerns with your words or actions. Remember, someone that is living with PTSD is still themselves, even if they are changed. What does it look like for you to live within the tension of the person being the same but different?

As we close our time, I want to take a moment to thank our sponsors. FullStack PEO is a company that I love here in town; they are committed to providing employee benefits so you can focus on what matters most: growing your business. And Handle with Care HR Consulting, empowering forward-thinking companies to come alongside their people with empathy and compassion. With engaging workshops and keynote sessions, Handle with Care helps you put empathy to work.

OUTRO