Heathen

Today, we're reading through some stories and feedback sent to us by listeners to Heathen, and damn—y'all are amazing. Thank you for sharing your stories, we love hearing them. We started off defining what we mean by "bad Christianity." It's a phrase we use around here that strikes some as aggressive, and to others might just be shorthand for describing the specific types of toxic religion we've crawled out from under. But folks have asked, and it's fair that we should give an explanation. From there, the listener emails we read are beautiful, insightful, a little heartbreaking, and fiery catalysts for some great conversation about learning to trust ourselves.

Oh, and Russian Tea? It's delicious.

Today: a real treat. We're delighted to welcome Derek Webb to Heathen. Derek has been a professional musical artist for nearly 25 years, as a founding member of the folk band Caedmon's Call and then as a solo artist. He's held a unique place in the Christian music world, often speaking to the injustices he saw in the church while also caring deeply for its well-being. The past few years, though, have seen a significant shift—one that we're very familiar with here at Heathen. Listen in as Derek shares about his journey into unbelief and how he came to record an entire album about apostasy—his latest, called Fingers Crossed. He also hosts an excellent podcast about the fallout of spiritual deconstruction called The Airing of Grief. Enjoy this deep dive with Derek Webb.

Slippery Slopes is a new series we are bringing to Heathen! Remember all the things from your religious upbringing that were taboo? PG-13 or R-rated films, dancing, anything "spiritual" that wasn't directly tied to Jesus? And of course, as we grew, so did the list: anything sexual, all drugs, how much of your body is displayed, types of events you can and can't go to, who you befriend. Making rules and policing adherents is serious Christian work. So many of us who are taking steps away from religion that restricts, oppresses, and shames are finding ourselves woefully unprepared and awkward when we try to engage in real-world stuff that, for a lot of people, is commonplace. For us, though, there are residual feelings of danger, fear, guilt, or worse when it comes to experiencing more of what life has to offer.

If you're interested in pushing boundaries, exploring formerly taboo topics, and—hopefully—normalizing some stuff that may not be inherently bad, but that you are accustomed to avoiding because God/Pastor/Parent said no, Slippery Slopes is here for you. We're kicking it off with a Tarot reading by season 1 Heathen guest Micah Turner. Come with us as we learn a little bit about—and then experience—this centuries-old practice of divination. The cards have some fascinating things to share...

Welcome to Season 2 of Heathen! We're so excited to introduce Heathen's new co-host, Karyn Thurston! Karyn was a guest in season 1—you can listen to her two-part conversation in the episodes titled "This Hurts, And It Feels Like Love" and "God Is A Flash Mob."

To kick things off, we're spending some time reflecting on what Heathen has done for us so far, and where we see it going. We also do some storytelling about our own apostasy and deconstruction journeys. Things get personal... but that's why we're here: to let you know that you're not alone on this path.

Learn more about Karyn at www.girlofcardigan.com.

Kate Christensen-Martin—who has a panic attack at being asked to write a one-line bio about herself—closes out Season 1 of Heathen telling us how she became a Pastor of Unbelief. I love this conversation about our bodies and souls, prayer, the nature of God, and more really light, easy topics. It's a great way to close out a season that has taken us on a real journey.

When Heathen returns in just two weeks, we're coming back with some big changes. A new cohost will join me, and I can't wait for you to get to know this person better. We're also expanding the format of the show and returning to weekly episodes. I think you'll love what's coming. In the meantime, enjoy reflecting on the journey of apostasy with the 15 fantastic conversations available in Season 1.

Haley Hill—who started her music career rapping for Jesus—brings the beats to today's episode of Heathen. She wasn't raised in a super-conservative evangelical family like so many of my guests have been, but conservative evangelicalism found her anyway. She has a story about finding and then losing a God that ultimately wasn't able to weather the hardest of life's storms. She also happens to be my housemate, bandmate, and one of my best friends, so I'm really happy to introduce you to one of the best people I know.

Music in this episode is by Girlboy (with a brief cameo by Sheryl Crow).

James G.—who aspires to live a life worthy of retelling through flannelgraph—gives some of the most thoughtful ruminations on apostasy I've heard so far. A Ph.D. student and music professor, James had done a lot of focused, intentional work in his journey away from evangelicalism prior to when I met him, which was half-drunk at a Beer & Hymns Christmas carol sing-along event in December of 2017.

After we shouted at each other over a very merry, very loud crowd of singers, James sent me a beautifully written piece that he had posted to an atheist thread on Reddit called "My New Testament," telling his story of losing faith through the lens of the five stages of grief. I found it profoundly moving, and it provides the framework for most of our conversation. He generously offered to let me share this piece with you, which you can read in full at HeathenPodcast.com.

Being a crazy-talented musician, James also provided some original compositions and arrangements that I used throughout this episode. Most of the music you hear is his.

This episode also kicks off the new official format of HEATHEN: longer episodes every other week. As much as I absolutely adore having these conversations, keeping up with a weekly rhythm was becoming really tough. I have a full-time job and two other side gigs in addition to HEATHEN, and I finally had to admit that all the writing, composing, recording, editing wasn't sustainable on a weekly basis. The upside is that I've found having longer conversations—two hours instead of one—gets us to even better places. It takes the pressure off to be profound right off the bat, and gives both me and my guests room to get to know each other as we explore our stories. Ultimately, I think it makes for a better listening experience for you, too, as many of you confirmed following the previous long-form episode with Alana Kalinowski!

Thanks for going on this ride with me, Heathens.

Alana Kalinowski—who will at least acknowledge when she's staring at you—has a story for you. Did you see the movie Captain Fantastic, with the off-the-grid family growing up in the woods? Cast them as ultra-conservative evangelical rapture preppers and you get just a little bit close to Alana's upbringing. Honestly, it's a trip, and all I can do is let you listen to it. Unedited. All 2+ hours of it.

Which brings me to... the format of this show. I'm considering a change. If you listen regularly, you might have noticed that this episode is coming out mid-week, and that there was no episode this past Sunday. There are reasons, I explain in the intro. But I'm feeling like these conversations need to be a bit longer in order to get to the good shit. So, I want to know what you think: a 2-hour episode every other week? Let me know.

And enjoy this truly astonishing conversation with an amazing person. Thanks for sharing your story with us, Alana.

P.S.—alternate titles I considered for this episode:

Everything Was Scary All The Time

Slutty Slut Heathen Feminazi

You Don't Get Cookies For Not Being Assholes

Amy Grant Was Part Of My Sexual Awakening

I Know How To Pass As Someone Who Didn't Grow Up Shitting In Buckets

Jeremy Fackenthal—who is a widely self-proclaimed expert adventurer, and an IPA drinker with a theology problem—teaches us some German on today's episode. Vergangenheitsbewältigung is hard to say and also hard to do, as it means "coming to terms with difficult things that happened in the past." Jeremy shares his ideas on theology of remembrance, being an American Baptist, process theology, and why he still finds Jesus compelling.

Before this most excellent conversation begins though, I open up with a story about the time I stumped the best preacher I knew with a question in church youth group.

Thanks for listening!

Karyn Thurston—who is a contact cryer convinced that hyperbole is her spiritual gift—rounds out a two part conversation that had me feeling things, y'all. Between a tale about an atheist soap opera star and a dynamic discussion of feminism lies a story of breaking down the God she was given and discovering a different sort of deity, one more akin to a dance than a person. There's some talk about that fella Jesus, and we also—to no one's surprise—had a great talk about Amy Grant and other 90s CCM artists (Jennifer Knapp, Nichole Nordeman, Derek Webb) who we get to listen to in a new light today knowing they've been on journeys similar to our own. I love this conversation—enjoy!

Follow Karyn and read her incredible writing at www.GirlOfCardigan.com.