Herding Code

Episode 61

This episode of Herding Code is a roundtable discussion which includes the entire cast. The guys dedicate the majority of the show to the CodePlex Foundation – what the foundation provides, speculation on what the foundation might accomplished, and how success should be measured.  The guys also offer a glowing review of Bing Visual Search, they dig into the Microsoft Ajax CDN, and give their opinions of the recent Zune HD Release.

Show Links:

• CodePlex Foundation
• Bellware’s CodePlex Foundation Write-up
• jQuery Foundation
• The Apache Software Foundation
• The Eclipse Foundation
• Mozilla Foundation
• Bing Visual Search
• Office Space
• NHibernate
• NUnit
• Jeff Atwood
• Damien Guard
• Google Code
• Google’s Summer of Code
• ScrewTurn Wiki
• Gimp
• Audacity
• Inkscape
• SourceForge
• Oren Eini
• Microsoft Ajax CDN
• CodePlex Foundation Board of Directors
• Miguel de Icaza, Novell
• Shaun Walker, DNN
• SugarCRM
• Rob Conery
• Bil Simser (@bsimser)
• Log4Net
• Zune HD Release
• jQuery Validation Library
• Akamai
• Barry Dorrans - Quick thoughts on the Microsoft AJAX CDN
• Brad Wilson
• Zune Pass
• Last.fm
• Pandora
• The Hype Machine
• Hanselminutiae-seven (Scott Hanselman with Richard Campbell)
• Miles Davis Kind of Blue
• Kind of Bloop

Download / Listen:

Herding Code 61: CodePlex Foundation, Bing Visual Search, Microsoft Ajax CDN, Zune HD Release

Show notes compiled by Ben Griswold. Thanks!

Episode 60

In this episode of the Herding Code Podcast, the guys talk to Louis DeJardin about the Spark View Engine.

• Louis talks about how the Spark View Engine was inspired by NVelocity and hatched from a comment thread on Phil Haack’s blog.
• Kevin asks about the HTML-like syntax syntax in a Spark view – how it was designed, how it looks, and some of the benefits of a view engine that looks like HTML.
• Scott K asks about some of the similarities to Cold Fusion markup. After making Louis squirm a bit, Scott points out the big difference in his eyes is that Spark works as part of an MVC pattern, while Cold Fusion embedded too much logic in the markup.
• Jon sets Kevin up to look really good by asking about a feature Kevin requested – safe by default HTML encoding.
• Kevin asks about how Spark’s strongly typed ViewData and strongly typed models work.
• Jon quizzes Louis about how Master Layouts differ from ASP.NET Webforms MasterPages, Kevin tries to stump him with questions about partial page caching.
• Scott K and Louis talk about how Spark was developed, and how TDD made writing a view engine easy.
• Kevin and Louis discuss how Spark is being used to generate more than HTML.
• Jon asks about how he got all the smarts to write a parser / templating engine.
• Scott K speculates about the potential for a custom view engine enabling vendors to offer controls for MVC. Louis tells him that he’s crazy, and the two discuss options for visual designers in the MVC world.
• Jon asks some questions about how an HTML-based syntax like Spark could allow for a better designer surface, but Louis convinces him that an HTML-based syntax is probably the best design interface, both for developers and designers.
• Kevin asks Louis about the Visual Studio integration for Spark.
• Louis takes a listener question from Jeremy Miller about caching compiled views.
• K Scott asks about using Spark’s JavascriptViewResult to do JSON powered updates with the same template for both initial and update rendering. Louis points out that it’s possible to write code that’s both c# and Javascript compatible, so it can be used both client-side and server-side. We all agree that’s crazy, but the right kind of crazy.
• K Scott asks about his selection of different tracking, source hosting, etc. services for the Spark project.
• Vladislav II asks about Dynamic Language support.
• Lt. Col. George Armstrong Custer asks about runtime vs. development time compilation, and how Spark runs under medium trust.
• Louis explains how Macros allow you to simulate creating reusable helpers inside your templates.
• Faustus of Byzantium asked about partials are integrated into views.
• Edward I asks about how performance compares to the Web Forms view engine, and if there are any important tips/tricks to get the best performance out of Spark.
• Ned Ryerson remembers talking to Louis at PDC, when Louis was pitching Spark to Jeff Atwood The Terrible. Jeff went with the Web Forms view engine which led to his eventual demise in 2012.
• Duke Konrad I of Masovia asks Louis about the use of multiple view engines in a website to ease transition.
• Kevin closes with some questions about Spark, such as how it plays with ASP.NET MVC 2 and where the name Spark came from.
• Postscript – Jon catches up with Louis to ask about his new position at Microsoft.

Show Links:

• Lou’s Blog
• Spark View Engine
• docu
• @loudej
• K. Scott’s post about the JavascriptViewResult in Spark
• Migrating from .aspx to .spark

Download / Listen:

Herding Code 60: Spark View Engine with Louis DeJardin

Episode 59

In this episode of the Herding Code Podcast, the guys sit down with Milan Negovan of ASP.NET Resources to discuss web standards, usability and accessibility.  Milan also shares his opinions on the onslaught of new technologies coming out of Redmond, why developers should avoid big conferences, the benefits of independent consulting, the motivation of Microsoft MVP Program and his impressions of ALT.NET.

• The show kicks off with Milan’s explanation of semantic markup – thinking first about content and then presentation – and the Web Standards Trinity which includes Structure (HTML, XHTML, XML), Presentation (CSS), and Behavior (JavaScript). 
• Milan talks about Quirks Mode vs Strict Mode. Jon asks about the benefits of XHTML especially with XHTML 2 recently being shot down in favor of HTML 5. 
• Milan states that CSS has always been more of a recommendation rather than a true standard.  He asks why anyone would use skins and/or themes. Jon bites and guesses because it is a typical Visual Studio control-first option and themes (unlike cascading style sheets) are always applied last and may enforce corporate design standards. Milan also shares his frustration with the bloated, non-standard markup generated by ASP.NET Server Controls and he names names.  That’s right, DataGrid!  He’s talking about you.
• Milan provides an overview of his impressive Microsoft.com redesign experiment and speaks briefly of Section 508 and his Color Blindness Simulator.
• K Scott asks what a .NET developer should do to better adhere to web standards. Milan talks specifically about control development, ASP.NET MVC and the shift back to client-side development.
• Milan speaks his mind about Silverlight’s poor usability.  He states Silverlight is being marketed to the wrong audience and it is not a replacement for JavaScript. Milan also calls out the educational gap for developers needing to act as designers. Shall I continue?  Jon agrees but provides a rebuttal. 
• K Scott seeks Milan’s opinion on new technologies, big conferences, independent consulting, the Microsoft MVP Program and ALT.NET.  Milan shares that you’ll go insane if you try to learn everything which is coming out of Redmond and suggests that developers specialize.  Milan describes big conferences as nothing more than “booze and noise” and recommends developers avoid conferences like Mix and participate in the local community instead.  Milan talks about life as a business owner/independent consultant, job security and building one’s personal brand. Milan questions the motivation of the Microsoft MVP program and suggests it is merely another marketing channel for Microsoft.  Milan shares his positive impressions of ALT.NET and comments on the “remarkable crap” published by Patterns and Practices.  Scott K calls Milan out for being too much of a kiss-up marketing shill. Fin.

Show Links:

• Milan’s Blog
• @MilanNegovan
• ASP.NET Resources
• Microsoft.com Home Page Design: Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 
• Developing Web Applications with ASP.NET and Web Standards
• Bait Station Ahead  - How to keep your sanity in this onslaught of new technologies
• Color Blindness Simulator
• A List Apart
• Smashing Magazine
• Section 508
• Josh Holmes
• Joe Stagner
• Ted Neward
• South by SouthWest
• Bill Buxton
• Steve Andrews
• Alan Stevens
• Keith Elder
• Mary Jo Foley
• ASP.NET MVC
• MEF
• Patterns & Practices
• Implementing the Singleton Pattern in C#
• Boston Code Camp
• Connecticut Code Camp
• Utah Code Camp
• Richmond Code Camp

Book Recommendations from Milan

• Universal Principles of Design
• Non-Designer's Design Book
• Don't Make Me Think: A Common Sense Approach to Web Usability
• Stop Stealing Sheep & Find Out How Type Works
• Transcending CSS: The Fine Art of Web Design

Download / Listen:

Herding Code 59: Web Standards with Milan Negovan

Show notes compiled by Ben Griswold. Thanks!

Episode 58

How about that?  You stuck around!  It was the Waylon Jennings, Good Ol' Boys, Dukes of Hazzard, freeze frame cliffhanger at the end of Part 1 which hooked you, wasn't it?  Undoubtedly you have been on the edge of your seat for days, just waiting to see how the show turns out.  Well, wait no further.  Here's the commercial free, dramatic conclusion to the longest Presentation Patterns discussion ever.

When we last left our heroes, Jeremy Miller, Ward Bell, Rob Eisenberg and Glenn Block were in the thick of their discussion.  Jeremy had just finished explaining the role of the Screen Conductor and Ward was ready to start flushing out implementation strategies.  That is, implementation strategies which might work across most solutions. 

But thankfully, Glenn starts by stepping back a bit and asking how the presentation patterns discussion fits in the context of mainstream development.

Will the guys provide a single answer to the age-old question, "Which came first the View or the ViewModel?"  Is there a one size implementation which fits all solutions?  Will this conversation ever end?  Find out this week on Herding Code.

Show Links:

• Jeremy Miller, Dovetail Software
• Ward Bell, IdeaBlade
• Rob Eisenberg, Caliburn, Blue Spire
• Glenn Block, Microsoft
• Expression SketchFlow
• Expression Blend
• Balsamiq Mockups
• Jonas Follesoe
• NDC2009 - Norwegian Developers Conference
• Windsor
• Pattern and Practices
• Build Your Own CAB Series by Jeremy Miller
  

Download / Listen:

Herding Code 58: Presentation Patterns with Jeremy Miller, Ward Bell, Rob Eisenberg and Glenn Block (Part 2)

Show notes compiled by Ben Griswold. Thanks!

Episode 57

Have you seen the circus gag where clown after clown emerges from the smallest car one could possibly image?  Well, this week on Herding Code, the guys attempt that very same trick!  Listen in as Jeremy Miller, Ward Bell, Rob Eisenberg and Glenn Block (that's right, four guests!) join the cast and talk Presentation Patterns.  This conversation started earlier this week on Twitter and it is shows no sign of slowing down.  Join us this week and next for an enlightening and exhaustive discussion about Views and Models and ViewModels and everything in between. 

• Kevin asks the four guests to introduce themselves and then turns the podcast up to 11.
• Jeremy kicks off the conversation with the "View First vs ViewModel First" discussion.  Jeremy talks about Views, ViewModels, Presenters, Behaviors, Implementation Detail, Separated Presentation, Passive View, iView Interface, Screen Activation, and User Controls... In summary, he's pro-ViewModel or Presenter first.
• Ward asks if anyone wishes to defend the View First position.
• Rob shares that he tends to create his View and Presenter at the same time (although he's mostly a Model kind of guy.)  Rob also calls out that he does a lot of prototyping in his workflow.
• Ward talks about where his development always starts - sketching out the UI with his clients.  The ViewModel is ultimately developed to support the interaction discovered in sketching. 
• Rob agrees. Talks more about prototyping first, gathering requirements, user feedback, workflow, architecture and conventions.
• Jeremy considers application navigation, behavioral aspects of screens and the contract for view.
• Glenn calls out the difference between Balsamiq mockups and screens which are maintained by a designer in Blend.  Which approach best supports the tooling experience, maintainability, and testability?  Glenn references Jonas Follesoe and how his designer girlfriend couldn't function unless he defined the View first.  Glenn initiates conversations about Service Locators.
• Jeremy questions whether one needs that level of detail.  Do you need to fake in a service locator for your designer experience or are there alternatives?
• Glenn stresses that we must think about the designer (albeit there aren't many right now), consider tradeoffs with varying approaches, talks about Prism and Patterns and Practices experiences, and tooling - particularly Blend.
• Rob talks about providing simple conventions which are taught to designers in lieu of using an inversion of control containers like Windsor.
• Glenn asks what the designer would see inside of Blend in this case and Rob isn't aware of  any limitations with this approach.  Is this an issue of designer not having sample data to work with?
• Jon shares his experience at Vertigo - applications favor design and tooling, applications don't have complex business rules, applications are Blendable.
• Jeremy appreciates that appearance may be the most challenging aspect of some applications.  In this case, maybe View First is the most appropriate approach but having Blend driving workflow is a case of the tail wagging the dog.  We need to consider the line of business applications and in that case ViewModel or Presenter must come first.
• Glenn notes that the View being created first as part of instantiation does not correlate to whether the ViewModel drives behavior from that point on. View First is at the point of activation.  Whether the view is injected into ViewModel or the ViewModel get set into the View, the ViewModel is the guy which is in control.
• Jeremy explains the Screen Activation pattern and some fairly complex scenarios where logic is executed before the view is activated. 
• Ward states that he is not a fan of the view determining the ViewModel or the ViewModel selecting the View and prompts Jeremy by asking if a factory could pull the right pieces together and sequence them.
• Jeremy takes Ward's queue and talks about the Screen Activator acting as the gatekeeper which puts screens together.  Jeremy reference the Caliburn approach.
• Rob clarifies the Caliburn ViewModels hierarchy and the use of screen activators and the composite pattern.
• Glenn talks a bit about complexity, CAB, debugging hierarchies, event aggregators and messaging.
• Jeremy calls out the benefit of using a composite pattern on a dashboard type application where a part of the screen may act as an application itself but an event aggregator would be best of cross-piece communication.
• Rob notes that communication in Caliburn is local - it is parent to child or child to parent and this approach can really simplify development.
• Jon and Rob discuss the approach of simply navigating between two tabs.  Would you use event aggregation, publishing event, commanding or what?
• Jeremy gives detail to the Screen Conductor role and pattern and Rob stresses the value of methods such as Initialize, Activate, Deactivate, Shutdown and CanShutdown. Jeremy and Glenn walk through an example.
• Glenn, Rob and Jeremy consider roles and patterns and if they vary from application to application.  Is there an established best practice?  Jeremy believes roles seem to be consistent but implementation changes from project to project. 
• Ward wraps up Part 1 stating that he agrees with the idea of like roles but not ready to lock into any implementation.  He suggests we call out the actors and see how it plays... 
• This conversation just won't end.  Be sure to tune in next week for Part 2.

Show Links:

• Jeremy Miller, Dovetail Software
• Ward Bell, IdeaBlade
• Rob Eisenberg, Caliburn, Blue Spire
• Glenn Block, Microsoft
• Expression SketchFlow
• Expression Blend
• Balsamiq Mockups
• Jonas Follesoe
• NDC2009 - Norwegian Developers Conference
• Windsor
• Pattern and Practices
• Build Your Own CAB Series by Jeremy Miller
  

Download / Listen:

Herding Code 57: Presentation Patterns with Jeremy Miller, Ward Bell, Rob Eisenberg and Glenn Block (Part 1)

Show notes compiled by Ben Griswold. Thanks!

Episode 56

Episode 55

Nate Kohari? Kanban Boards? Continuous Improvement? Zen? Stop right there! We know what you're thinking.  You already heard this episode about three weeks ago on that other podcast, right?  Well, think again, because this week on Herding Code, the guys pick up where that interview left off.  Listen in as Nate Kohari, the creator of Ninject, talks about the technical nuts and business bolts of his new startup. Find out why Nate choose to build his online product predominantly on a Microsoft stack, how the site is going to scale, how he processes payments, and much, much more, this week on Herding Code.

• Kevin sets the tone of the show and notes that the guys are going to steer clear of the questions already addressed on a recent Hanselman show.  This talk will focus on technical and startup details.
• Nate comments on why he build his application using the Microsoft stack.  After all, most startups don't chose this path. 
• The guys talk about multiple browser support, jQuery, jQuery Plugins, CSS and Firefox Add-ons.
• Jon asks about architectural patterns.  Nate talks about ASP.NET MVC with the Spark View Engine.
• Kevin asks about online payment integration? Was it painful?
• Nate discusses hosting and scalability.
• Scott K asks about the brains behind the operation and how her background may have inspired Zen's UI and overall flow.
• Kevin asks Nate for any "words of wisdom" for those thinking about launching a startup.
• Kevin wraps up the show asking Nate about what's to come with Ninject and Zen.

Zen Coupon Code: KAIZEN 
50% off the first month, last to the end of July.

Show Links:

• Nate Kohari's Discord & Rhyme
• Nate Kohari on Twitter
• Ninject
• Zen
• Lean Software Development
• Hanselminutes
• Nicole Kohari
• James Avery
• Mike Eaton
• Jayme Davis
• Sean Chambers
• NHibernate
• LINQ to NHibernate
• jQuery
• jQuery UI
• Ruby on Rails
• Mono
• ASP.NET MVC
• Phil Haack
• MonoRail
• Spark View Engine
• jQuery Metadata Plugin
• BrowserShots
• Xenocode
• IETester
• Firefox Firecookie Add-ons
• amCharts
• Chart Basics
• CSS Browser Selector
• Akamai
• Google CDN
• Rackspace, Rackspace Cloud (Mosso)
• Amazon CloudFront
• BrainTree Payment Solutions
• Telligent
• The Dip by Seth Godin
• Mary and Tom Poppendieck
• 37signals

Download / Listen:

Herding Code 55: Nate Kohari brings Your Moment of Zen

Show notes compiled by Ben Griswold. Thanks!

Episode 54

Episode 53

What? You thought SubSonic was dead! Well, crack open a beer and join the party - the SubSonic 3.0 Release Party!  That's right. It is finally here and Rob Conery (Herding Code's first repeat guest) gets a little rowdy announcing the new features.  Listen in as Rob speaks of SubSonic, the new role he's playing at Microsoft, why he's given up on Twitter and why Kevin Dente deserves to be roasted.  Does Rob completely derail the show?  Find out this week on Herding Code.

• Jon kicks off the show asking Rob for some clarity on his job at Microsoft. Rob refuses to answer the question and unveils his plan to completely derail the podcast.  This leads into the first ever Kevin Dente Roast.
• After things settle down, Rob announces SubSonic 3.0 and the "technical part of the podcast" is initiated.
• Rob talks to SubSonic details - specifically, ActiveRecord, REST Handler, Linq engine, SimpleRepository, templating system, the use of the iQueryable Toolkit, the new docs site, and auto migrations.
• "What's so difficult about building a freakin' expression parser?"  Rob states that coding is hard and the fact that LINQ leaves him a little afraid. He then speaks a little Mandarin and speaks of going shopping.
• Jon and Rob have a discussion about the use of ORMs and performance concerns.  Rob states No one ever got fired for using Microsoft and adds a quick comment about SubSonic's failed acquision of NHibernate
• Scott K asks what it is like to write your own provider for SubSonic and notes that a SQL Data Service provider would allow one to scale to the cloud.
• The guys field listener questions from Jeff Atwood ("Why is SQL so awesome?") and Chip Cray ("How has your view of DDD changed since you started the StoreFront?")
• The conversation comes full circle with Jon asking Rob (again) about his job at Microsoft and if he's paid to work on SubSonic.

Show Links:

• Rob Conery
• Scott Hanselman
• SubSonic 3.0 is Released Announcement
• SubSonic 3.0 Download
• SubSonic 3.0 Docs
• Ruby on Rails
• LINQ
• LINQ to SQL
• Jeff Atwood, Joel Spolsky, Stack Overflow
• iQueryable Toolkit
• Matt Warren
• gzip
• Rick Strahl
• SQL Data Services
• NHibernate
• Sharding
• POCO
• Entity Framework
• T4 Templates
• db4objects
• SQLite
• Ayende
• Damien Guard
• Scott Guthrie
• David Heinemeier Hansson (DHH)
• ASP.NET MVC StoreFront
• StackOverflow DevDays
• Intro music - Chicago Remix - requested by Rob

Download / Listen:

Herding Code 53: SubSonic 3.0 Release Party with Rob Conery

Show notes compiled by Ben Griswold. Thanks!

Episode 52