Here Right Now

Everyone needs to know about rewilding, in my opinion.

Rewilding is an evocative concept. Notions of the good old days! A lush and lively community of species going about their business undeterred, swapping planes in the sky for a cornucopia of birds and bees, and on the ground, boar, bears, bison, wolves and maybe beaver too. Not just a return, but perhaps a new accommodation - humans and the rest of the ecosystem in balance. Rewilding. It sounds cool.

Pandemic and lockdowns created space and caught imaginations. In the absence of other distractions, we town and city-dwellers started noticing the birds in our gardens, while in Barcelona the city’s boar population is out of control and in Wales mountain goats invaded a town. And lots of us have heard about the rare species that have returned to Chernobyl of all places, and how the reintroduction of wolves to Yellowstone Park unlocked an amazing cascade of ecosystem improvements. ‘Nature is healing’ was the optimistic meme.

Derek Gow has spent a lifetime caring for, cultivating and reintroducing species in the UK. A farmer and a conservationist, and now author of the funny, irreverent and moving book ‘Bringing Back the Beaver: The Story of One Man's Quest to Rewild Britain's Waterways’, he tells it how he sees it.

Gow knows what rewilding takes. He’s spent decades doing it. Fighting red tape and the affluent countryside lobbies. Breeding and introducing delicate creatures through trial and error. As an authority and a practitioner, Derek can share an accurate and grounded point of view about how real rewilding is or isn’t, how pressing the need is and what the major barriers are to making better, faster progress, today.

In this conversation you’ll learn about keystone species, about why the beaver is so surprisingly impactful on its ecosystem, you’ll hear about the white-tailed eagles ‘the size of a flying barn door’ being reintroduced across the UK, you’ll get a clear sense of how you can support rewilding efforts and loads more. And you’ll enjoy Derek’s fluent, fiery, no-nonsense account.

Links

* Derek Gow - Twitter

* Bringing Back the Beaver: The Story of One Man's Quest to Rewild Britain's Waterways by Derek Gow (book on Amazon)

* Beavers on the River Tamar, Devon (opens PDF)

* White-tailed Eagle reintroduction - Roy Dennis Foundation

* Knepp - ground-breaking rewilding project in Sussex, UK

* Wilding: The Return of Nature to a British Farm by Isabella Tree (book on Waterstones)

* Further listening #8: Understanding our plants and fungi with Dr Ilia Leitch

Credits

* Music by Lee Rosevere

Automated transcript

Will McInnes 0:00

So did you did you get an eagle today?

Derek Gow 0:04

I've not been anywhere near the farm today I've been up looking at another project and Bridgewater nowhere near that goodness knows hopefully but I won't see till tomorrow

Will McInnes 0:15

right Where's Bridgewater in the world?

Derek Gow 0:18

Somerset so when I'm looking at we rewire a rewilding project on a farm there lots of people really interested in smaller areas of land taking smaller areas of land 120 acres or something like that and looking at how you restore it for nature so was up seeing charming couple who run our you know, organic fruit and vege operation there and already have an area which is incredibly rich and wildlife Big Finish flocks, like so which I haven't seen for years, I say the game leading areas, and then it's just down to the, the crops and the seeds and the untidiness of it all. And because you've got that you've got nature, it's not very complicated.

Will McInnes 1:04

I love it. I love it. That's so so fantastic. I'd love to just start by introducing you and saying, you know, welcome,

Unknown Speaker 1:14

you're,

Will McInnes 1:15

I've been really inspired following you have read your book recently. And on the book sleeve, it describes you as a farmer and a conservationist is that is that the feel like the right kind of label for you?

Derek Gow 1:27

And yeah, I don't see any contradiction between the two things. To be quite honest, this idea there in amicable is just nonsense. At the end of the day, if you farm wisely with our main to other life, you can do much. So I see no contradiction in that.

Will McInnes 1:43

Just to get us going, you know, my experiences. I'm a lay person I'm I have had a kind of nerdy, but amateurish fascination with birds of prey. My recent story, which would be, you know, the pandemic, being stuck at home, becoming obsessed with the bird feeder in the garden, and you see these kind of memes of nature is healing. And someone ended up recommending a nap to me, and I live in Brighton. I'm speaking to you now from Brighton, that you're down in the West Country in Devon.

Unknown Speaker 2:17

That's right. Yeah.

Will McInnes 2:18

I've got myself over to nap. And we did the data with my two boys who are just early teens and hearing about every species of bat and Owl and rare species of visiting birds and solitary bees. And from there, I found my way to you and your exploits on Twitter and, and your book. And, you know, I would love to hear a short kind of potted history of your story. How did you get to be doing this work?

Derek Gow 2:43

When I was very small, I became involved with the rare breed survival trust, I always had some pet sheep at home, where I live in a town in the Scottish Borders, called beggar. And when I think I was about maybe 10. Somebody gave me a Shetland sheep as a pet. No, at that time, these old breeds of livestock were very rare. I mean, they were very uncommonly kept. And you drive through landscapes and just not see any flocks of colour cheap, or Longhorn cattle or anything like it. And so when I was given this, I think also they gave me a book for my birthday about, you know, these old but it was written by a chap called john Vince, about the old breeds of domestic livestock, their history, that confinement to the Western Isles, or, you know, in the case of white Park capital, the containment and the last of the hunting parks. And when you start to read the stories of these remarkable creatures, you know, you're basically on VR unravelling a tapestry of British history. And I became very interested in that and then I, I graduated, you know, from that to, you know, reading Gerald Donald's books and his expeditions and South America and all the colourful characters he met and entailed, and his say, in a search for, for animals to bring back for zoos. And then later in his life, obviously he, he turned to the idea that zoos could be so much more than they should be ARKS, saving creatures for a better future, and then restoring them when when the world was a better place. So I mean, that's really what inspired me at the beginning. It was nothing complicated. It wasn't a university education, or anything like it. I left school when I was 17, to work in agriculture for five years. And when I was made redundant at the end of that, then, I was offered the opportunity to, to manage a collection of rare breed domestic livestock in a place called palace, Rick Country Park on the outskirts of Glasgow. I did that for a number of years. As I was doing it, they asked me if I wanted to manage the zoo. And I did that so I came to work with a very broad range of British and European wildlife species in captivity. And was asked to understand how you read them how you maintain them effectively. And from that point, I guess, somewhere in the region of 30 years ago, the idea that some of these could be reintroduced a time when the world was better, which we don't seem to have quite achieved yet. Was was was was born and I became involved with waterfalls and beavers and I'm now working on wild cats and other species with a view to reintroducing them back into parts of the law strange.

Will McInnes 5:33

So, so cool, and I know that people listening will already be really dialled in to what you're saying. Like just the fact that you're now helping to introduce and work with wild cats is just incredibly exciting. So according to the list that I've put together, you've bred wild cats, white storks, European field hamsters, harvest mice, night, herons, stoats, water shrews. polecats.

Derek Gow 6:02

Yeah, I mean, it's many.

Will McInnes 6:05

Okay, goes that's not that's not even the half of it.

Derek Gow 6:09

No, nowhere near

Unknown Speaker 6:10

love it.

Will McInnes 6:11

So what we're going to come on to beavers and we're going to come on to sort of a broader view, but how would you characterise the state of British wildlife today? Like, you're you're, you're in Britain, I'm in Britain. Not all of the listeners will be but but what, you know, what's it like out there?

Derek Gow 6:34

It's truly terrible. I mean, you're looking at a landscape where life is no longer just leaching from it. Life has left. Yes, the sheep and cattle Yes, the fields are green. But in many parts of the British Isles, when you examine what's under the greenness, then you find soils that are dead, full of pesticides. You know, with no worms, no mycorrhizal fungus, no soil, invertebrates, you know, just look near lifeless in art. The big animals have all gone, we extinguish them a long time ago in the past, we kept a few of them, the ones we wanted to hunt we cultivated and, and ensured they were there. So the Red Deer and, and the foxes you know, they remained because at the end of the day, not because the O wetted us but because, you know, people will instruct you that these animals were the creatures that another kind of person wanted to chase up and down the landscape on horseback. And if they removed them, then there would be repercussions. So, you know, what we've got is is the most bizarre and distorted Guild of creatures imaginable. We have species living free here from all over the globe, you go into the London parks and you're besieged by paddock eats, you wander through, you know, woodlands and in the Midlands and one of the commonest you, you'll see, you will encounter Asiatic muntjac and yet the The Guild of creatures that should be here have been much diminished by us. And as I say, when you come to modern times, you know, what you find is with an intensification of farming, and, you know, coupled with, you know, a very different view of what forestry should be, you know, plantation forestry, you know, solid blocks of alien conifers that we've done really pretty much everything we could do to eradicate life from the land. No, some of that, for sure was unintentional, but the near end result has been that by the time you look at a landscape, my my farm and then on the Devon Cornwall border overviewing Dharma, that the wading birds that redshanks, the lapwings, the curlews have all gone, you know, in the last generation, and the generation before that the hen Harriers, the black grows, the wheatears nesting on our farm to they've all gone to. I know, we're left with olanski, whether a few Meadow pipits and a few small family groups of other birds, but other than that, there's really nothing much left. Left Alive. It's It's It's really a pretty deplorable situation

Will McInnes 9:13

that's utterly despairing. That is awful. And what also occurs to me and this is kind of embarrassing to admit, but is that even though I'm enthusiastic about nature and the wildlife, that a lot of those birds species that you've mentioned, I wouldn't recognise them I wouldn't know. I wouldn't be able to pick out a Curlew or, or a black grouse or a hen Harrier from a from a Castro and so it strikes me reading your book, reading Isabella's trees book reading around the subject, I'm starting to realise that our vocabulary in kind of mainstream society has become very reduced. It's it's we don't recommend Is the tree species and we don't recognise that the kind of Fauna and Flora around us to the extent that I feel I personally absolutely should, what I'd love to understand is in in your book bringing back the Beaver, which is fantastic, and I hope doing very well because it's really funny and mixes, you know the seriousness of the situation and the scale of the opportunity with with many a hilarious tale. One thing I'd love for people listening to understand is can you tell us what a keystone species is? Like, what what is it that about these particular species that leads to such great outcomes downstream?

Derek Gow 10:42

Well, all species are important and all species have impact. So at the end of it all, there is no species that's developed as part of a guild of life, which is fair to say is an essential you remove one. And there are always implications for for the others, and the landscapes and the environments that surround them. But a keystone species is it's it's very simpler. The you know, the the terminology comes from the idea that you have this board are shovels, stone, supporting a bridge, and the key stone is a stone that links the two sides without which the whole structure can stand. And if you pull it out, it just goes boom, into the river. And that's the end of that you have no bridge and you have to swim with your sacks of carrots on your head from market and one side to your cabinet field. The other. So that's a keystone species. And it's a term we use to lightly I mean, I've had in the time that I've been involved in this a certain conferences where people tell me that crayfish are a keystone species or have perhaps even said that waterfalls are a keystone species, species and, you know, really, they're not. And beavers are not a keystone species, the North Americans who know them much better than we do, will tell you that they're not a keystone species because they're actually much more important than that, that a force of nature that a natural force, in their own right, and this natural force, by by holding water, in vast quantities and valley landscapes by breaking forests by creating great complexities of dams and impoundments. By engineering landscapes to suit itself has a huge impact on natural function and and on on the on the Guild of other species that surround it. So there's ample evidence now for the world range that you know, Beaver Dam complex is slow the flow of water for example, during flood events, you know, we look at our rivers and streams gushing rapidly from the, you know, the treeless sheep shore and uplands down into the valley bottoms developing into raging torrents that then race through the landscapes again, that are denuded of anything that would naturally inhibit their progress because of course, we've so extensively drained and failed, you know, bypass the site channels that we think are relevant river or stream as being something that runs in a single water course along the the the bottom of a valley to a thing called a river, which then runs in a single water course with other canalys water waterways, even though we call them rivers, which are just largely drains, you know, all for flowing like arterial functions into this main water body. But, of course, it was never that way before. I mean, what we've essentially done if you want an analogy is we've taken, you know, a body that you can see through and we've stripped out all the capabilities, and we've left some of the veins and we straighten some that are not quite in the right position as far as our function is concerned. And we've left some of the RFPs, but not all of them. And that's how we've engineered water so that when, when the rains come, the rain hits the compacted clay ground or the bare ground, there are no trees to absorb it anymore races across the land and to the water courses and boom, you have flooding and misery. And the other side of that, that. The other flip side of that is that as as the climate warms and becomes more and more unstable, is that we end up with water that we simply can't retain in the landscape because it's so effectively drained, that as soon as it falls, it leaves and you end up with drought and beavers basically, act two to regulate both of those functions. The wetlands, which are large means so for example, in my farm, you know, we have a system of old Victorian drains that run through the bottom of the farm. And these things are maybe seven, eight foot deep. They're eroded down to bedrock. No. And when you know when it rains, they're raging torrents. When it doesn't rain, there's no water in them. So there are no fish. There are no dragonflies. There are no there are no there are no muscles that are no and Kingfisher speeding. There are no otters there are no frogs there's there's nothing that relies on water. And what the beavers have done is the beavers have basically blocked them again and again and again and again in

multiple different ways to the points where, you know, the maybe punched holes in the ditch sides and other streams that were never there before are flowing. They've impounded those as well and other streams flow as a result of that. So whenever the animal none of that water would be there. And without water, none of that life would be there. through the summer months, the deer wouldn't drink the boar wouldn't wallow. beavers, as I said, Our keystone species, they're an incredibly important function of nature. And that's why it's critical that we restore them.

Will McInnes 15:51

I absolutely love that. And there's a snippet that I'll read from your book, if I may, which is really just caught me. Which is, she was fragrant of wooden Herbes of the indescribable sweet smell of beavers that once recognised, you can sometimes catch in a willow wood on a warm day in landscapes where you know, frustratingly they are not, but should be. And it's just beautiful and really captured for me the relationship that you have with the species. So where are we with beavers in the UK right now.

Derek Gow 16:32

We are in a place where we have made a beginning. And having made a beginning are We are in a situation where there is clear political support for the restoration of the species. There is a rising widespread understanding of just how important they are the the old arguments about fish impediment and agricultural damage, fading away fast. But we're not doing this well. We are a very hesitant people. were good at standing on a world stage and blogging about our own Wharf kind of like you know, Toad of Toad Hall type characters full of hot air, and our own importance and when it actually comes to not very good at doing very much at all. I've sat in an auditorium in Europe where small shrill British scientists have told people from from Norway and Sweden and Belgium and Germany, and France, whoa, when eventually we got round to reintroducing the beaver in Britain, our models suggested it would be the best introduction ever. And you know, it says an awful lot for people like that. And they have the human grease to actually listen to these fools. And at least some of them clap them at the clapped at the end, I don't think I would have done so at the end of all, we're just braggarts. So we're in a place now where recommendations are being made to government with regard to what shouldn't shouldn't be done with beavers in England and Scotland. There's a massive fight because the Scottish Minister for farming has said there can be no extension of the range of the species that's not through natural dispersal in Scotland to pleases chums in the Scottish Farmers Union. And therefore they're they're issuing licences to kill animals that could be used elsewhere. And Wales. You know, they're basically the Welsh executive of of them all have behaved terribly badly. they've they've, they've marked organisations that the Wildlife Trust grown for years, they've, you know, tried to come up with with reason after reason why there should be no beavers and whales, and there should be no movement to restore nature there that's meaningful. And, and it's frankly, the people involved in this are beamed in a way that's truly shameful. I mean, the next couple of days, I hope to see some of the some of the background correspondence with regard to this that explains, you know, the course of thinking but I think it's fair to say that there in the mean, the people who are there to try and hold the status quo, have not behaved well with regard to the restoration of this creature. And I'm not behave well with regard to the restaurant, restaurant relation of nature that would follow us return. And you know, frankly, I think that's really disappointing because they're not there to make decisions about whether something's right of their own of their own volition. They're there to do what people want and if their boss is at the top of telling them to do something, and people don't below are expecting them to do something. And if they realise at all, this is a time of, you know, massive climate change in global extinction, then they should be acting to facilitate projects, their restore species like the beaver and not simply getting in the way.

Will McInnes 19:57

They definitely, definitely should and at the end of this, I'll be asking you what we can do to help throw our weight behind this. If I'm ambling around the right piece of countryside in the UK, is it possible I can find beavers living wild?

Derek Gow 20:13

Sure, you can go to the river otter and the visible river otter, if you go to the T that are that are places where you can see them as an estate at a place called bump, you know where you can walk through and see all the dams that are you know, on the catron Trail off to one side of the footpath you can go and watch them in in knapdale and can tire and unknown places like that over stowed and can't there is a free living population of beavers and indeed on the river Tamar in Devon There are also beavers you can kayak kayak up the river from places like CT Hill and perhaps see them in the in the dusk have a warm summer night or in the morning miss when the when the heat starts to draw the water off forever. So yes, there are an increasing number of places you can go to see beavers, though they are still a real animal in the British Isles, I mean a national population of maybe only about one and a half 2000 animals.

Will McInnes 21:13

So we've got these shrill, shrill braggarts proclaiming confidently that we're doing the right thing in the kind of regulatory layer. And then we've got a small growing but very rare still population of animals living successfully and wildly in the UK.

Derek Gow 21:34

Yes, we have, right.

Will McInnes 21:36

And then, you know, governments and regulatory bodies, if I get anything from your book, it's that they seem depressingly inept and actively against these initiatives. What I would love to do is we've we've covered that. The angle also that interests me is that, you know, land is under the control of landowners. Clearly, farmers play a crucial role in this their attitudes, their beliefs, what they're trying to achieve the incentives in the systems that they are operating within you in the people at Napa have from farming. And yet it seems the farming community is very often opposed to rewilding efforts. what's what's what's your take on that?

Derek Gow 22:19

Well, I think that's the way that paradigm is often pitch, but it's not as straightforward as that. I mean, yesterday, I went see someone my next door neighbor's and we're standing in the yard, and we're having a chat about one or two different things. And and the way for the lady who had asked me to come for a chair, says Ray Dalio, how could we possibly get beavers on our land in the valley bottom, and you look at her and she's on the Tamar and you know, they're common, they're common, the day will not be far away, when they find their wetland and the valley bottoms and they start to reshape it in the way they did. You know, when they were last there, you know, maybe 800 1000 years ago. So there are people who are immensely sympathetic. There are many people who understand that the changes of the 70s the 80s, the 90s were very wrong and that the damage the pesticides did the land improvement the crop changes the chemicals that enabled us to, you know, just grow without dung anymore to to just worm sheep without considering the numbers we were keeping all the things that seemed like a brave new world are no increasingly being seen for what the where, which is an unsustainable charade there are farmers who care very deeply I mean, today I was in an organic fruit and vege farm you wander around, and as I said, I mean there are flocks of chaffinches there, hundreds of them, big flocks of Linares, hundreds of them, the lady was telling me she seen bramblings just you know the glass last winter flocks of bramblings and they're they're flying into the the you know, this these are regular rows of corn or kale, the the the owners lay everything seed they have lots of rough areas around the edge. So when dogs grow in their vegetables that the dogs are eating No, but the doc beetles and and when you look at inches, well it's a bit untidy in that untidiness, you have real life you have the predators or some of the crop pests, you have the predators of some of the weed species, it's really an amazing thing to see. So farmers are a very mixed bunch. There are people who care from our personal point of view, and from because they just feel the way we've come to is not right. And there are also people who frankly are looking at the economic situation, as it's changing from from this old system of you know, State subsidy big amounts of taxpayers money just being given to other individuals and society for doing you know, actually, nothing much. I mean, it's just been so wrong for so long, that there are a class of people who are, who are poor, who have to feed their children go to the food banks, and yet there are other people in society, who are given hundreds of 1000s of pounds of everybody else's money, simply because they own land. And and, and really just act on their own selfish interests after that. So it's changing is changing really fast. The new system of government payments, you know, as enshrined in the 25 year environment plan, the end and environmental land management series of payments that are due to come in, you know, are targeted at rewarding people who basically create land and live user land sympathetically, and create living space for nature. And increasingly, the heartening bit about what I do as a day job known is that you meet really very many of them, you know, people who are tunnelling ready to say, you know, you're gonna have to trust us, because we are the solution. And we can actually do things that you know, no system of state organisation is going to deliver, you know, we can change, we want to change, and there are very many people like that,

Will McInnes 26:22

oh, that's fantastic to hear really, really positive and really promising. So thank you. And I love your point about the untidiness of that organic fruit farm. And that was one of the things that I've taken from, from exploring this topic of rewilding through your book and through others, which is that the landscape isn't supposed to look manicured. I mean, that's obvious, but but that in the foreign tree that doesn't get moved in the carcass that doesn't get taken away in the, in the mixture of what happens. That's where the kind of richness of the species really start to prosper. So it's great to hear that. What I'd love to know is, it's where do you think we can get to, like, where you're a pragmatist? You're a realist, you're a sleeves rolled up person who gets this stuff done. Where can we get to,

Derek Gow 27:15

we can sort this out, we are a clever species. You know, we was talking to a film producer in Los Angeles the other day, and they are they're working on, you know, on a film production, which looks at the problems that this planet has, and it looks at the solutions that are behind, which are so incredible, and asked the question, why don't we do it? And this is the biggest problem is it's not that we can't change it's not that we can look at the ruined landscape that we made and say, Well, look, we made it, we made it this way we can reshape it, we can look at you know, a sustainable agriculture, we can look at returning organic farming, you know, with dung, going back into the span of broken old arable fields that are, are no reduced to nothing much older, and Dustin, have plenty examples, you know, of farmers worldwide who've done just exactly that we can regenerate land that basically has just been been beaten to near death by us we can, we can reform wetlands, we can learn to read tolerate an animal like the Beaver, which is not our enemy. It's so greatest friends, we can restore lost species like the pine Marten and the wild cat, which we're just fleed from the landscape. Bye, bye bye bye. mediaeval hunters for far or to protect rabbits are the gatekeepers, because they believed quite firmly that they were there to ensure that none of their masters, you know, targets were eaten by any other creature, we can do this there are some people out there, you know, small cadres of folk who have mains that are still based in medievalism, whose whose thoughts and actions are dark, but you know, as a percentage of society, they're fading away, no, and that's a good thing. It's high time, these backward views of what the landscape should be, you know, just weather then died. And we could also, you know, in the end, look forward to, you know, perhaps the restoration of animals like the wolf, at the end of the day, when you look at the history of interaction, you know, we had with that animal it was all to do with, you know, more or less in a Western European sense. This, this, this idea of Christian author of, of taking a landscape taking an environment and returning it to the ordered hand of God so that when travellers, you know, coming through a wilderness, cross the valley ridge and look down on a landscape that was shaped by the cistercians. You know, there were the You know the eggs and the walled garden there were the fattened pigs you know the the milking cows everything was ordered by God and what an impression it created so when you look at the landscape the garden landscape we have no the huge extent you see that in absurd mimic, you know the landscape of this island was never meant to be one gigantic, gigantic garden with, you know mourn and graced fields flailed straight hedges. No wetlands, no rocks left in the pasture. No fallen trees is just nonsense. What we need is more untidiness, not only a physical but a mental untidiness, that starts to look at things that conflict with us and doesn't always when they do reach for a bottle of poison or a gun or a trap. That's that's not not the way that we're going to. to re bond with nature. We need to look at forging a different future,

Will McInnes 31:01

just utterly compelling, utterly compelling and, and so brilliantly put. I see from your Twitter that you're currently feeding some some eagles. I think it would surprise a lot of people to know that that some of these species of birds are out there and on the return I've actually got a tattoo of a Rob kite on my arm because for me, I was always interested in birds of prey and the first time I saw a red kite, which was I don't know not that long ago, less than 10 years ago, it was an amazing sight because it was a bigger than normal bird. But you're you're trying to feed something even bigger Can you just let us know what what's going on?

Derek Gow 31:46

Well whitetail eagle is a bird that you know the bird books will tell you is the size of a flying barn door so I mean you're looking at the you know a bird that is near and tight to a vulture than an eagle

and the air in the ER any Are those the gills called Eagle with a sun in it sigh was a common bird right the way through the British Isles and and it survived in the southwest until very recently, if you look at maps of Dart moved from the 1840s they'll show you where we're where the bustards were where the Eagles were where the spoon bells were, where the Queens were where the pine Martens wherever the stone Martin's wherever the polecats were, you know our landscape that's just no saw ascetically deprived of life that if you see a stone chat which is a bird the size of our most you're doing awfully well. The last of the refusals are just about done this West sub dying it's just hangar we come to this and and you'll look at it now and say well, what is rock bottom going to look like? By the time the insects have gone and they're collapsing by 50 75% I much worse gonna actually get so we have a big task at our hands and and restoring birds. Like the white tailed eagle is very much part of it. The only reason why we killed them in the past was down to the the deepest of ignorance. Yes, some people told stories of them, you know, cutting away children surely pillaged? You know, dead livestock. But at the end of all, it wasn't a meat. Well, it was, you know, in fairness, if you look back to Elizabeth and times, he looked at the percentage of crops, both domestic livestock and green, it was taken by other species, you can argue that when you were peasant farming, that this was a significant a significant thing to have happen. We are not peasant farming anymore, a third of the food we produce in Britain is just wasted. And then when we it's wasted before it gets to a play, and then when we actually get it to a plate, we waste even more. So we're farming land that could never really grow anything. And it has only been hailed in Thrall because of the public subsidies that have enabled the people, people farming the fairly poorly bred sheep and remote areas, you know, to do so. So it's time for change in those eagles are part of it, because when the farm subsidies finish, you're going to have to look at what you're going to do with all this land in a different way. And and the argument that we can't have rewilding we can't have nature is because you've got a collapsing industrial lobby. That's there to serve its own interests, its members, the interests of the pesticide companies and the suppliers of of fertiliser and and and and and and and warmers for sheep and cattle. That's why they're making a big fuss about it is because they No no. If you lose the ear of government and they lose the poll at the certainty of money, other people's money has given them then they will feed and Never be as important as they have been to date. And that, frankly, is a good thing. At the end of all, if we're looking at changing this landscape, I very often hear when we sit down and talk about beavers and people whining about the ones that are illegally in inverted commas released on the tear, but how much damage is done? Oh, we should have asked people first and, you know, this is just wrong and people should have been consulted. And in the end, you've got to look at this waning and see what what for what it is, it's the face a mask elite, whereby, you know, the people that are claiming that they're the virtuous in a certain sense really are not, you know, they're really good at pulling levers behind the scenes persuading politicians and, and those that make decisions that their, their their voice is more important than anybody else's. And I but what they do see is that you know, we should have more discussion and we should be open and what we do, I think that's a good thing. I think we should be open and what we do, I think we should start asking people whose money we're taking what should happen to you know, do they want to pay that money to poison half of Lincolnshire to the point where the waters leaving the land are so toxic that fish can't even live in them anymore? Or do they want to use that money to create farmland where animals live decent lives, not as many of them where they are, you know, kept as part of family units whether a wildflowers growing in the corner whether harvest mice and and and and the untrimmed hay jgs, whether it's white tailed eagles, soaring overhead and weather are beavers where you've actually got other creatures that you could cherish existing and that landscape around you. Let's ask people what they want to do. The Sharad is that we never have. So I think that there has to be a different way of doing this and, and asking people what they want is a very big part of it.

Will McInnes 36:50

That's a really exciting prospect. And I love this momentum that you're building for, you know, calling on the people to express express what they want, especially given that we are paying for so much of this. And the prospect of barn door sized Eagles soaring in the air is very, very appealing to me. So as we as we bring this fantastic conversation to a close Derrick, my question is, what can we do? What can I do as everyday people to support a richer wild or ecology? What What do you implore from us or instruct us or, you know, point point somewhere,

Derek Gow 37:30

when an issue comes along, make a fuss, you don't just understand your issues? Well, don't just accept what's in a simple newspaper article, try to sit if you really care, try to sit down, to read to understand there's so much information out there. And when something comes along, and it's going wrong, you rate your politicians, and you object, if you feel like it support some of the smaller organisations, there's some brilliant organisations out there, like the Roy Dennis foundation for, for for nature, conservation is run by, you know, a man who's just near and credible, who spent the 80 odd years of his existence on this planet reintroducing some of the big lost birds like the white tailed Eagle, or the or the Osprey, you know, just and who's who's talked for a very long time about what we need to do, and it manages to do what he does with very little money. don't support the big guys, the big guys or, or find a way through, if you give some of your money, which is always limited to people that they will act well. There are other people out there who are asking for money, who are charlatans, again, research those people and make sure you don't spend money unwisely, on doing on trying to do something, it's never going to come to anything in the end. So there are things you can do lobbying politicians being one but in the end, if you own any kind of amount of land to be a small farm or a garden or an acre, whatever it is, think again about what you're doing with it. If you're a small holder, start to move your farming away from the edge, talk to your neighbours. See, if there's some way you can create corridors through landscapes. So the harvest mice or glow worms, which need rough gas pawsox, you know, can actually find living space and an environment that's fundamentally turned against them. Let your hedges grow along, you know, create more ponds and pools. Don't worry about piles, a lot of rocks lying around or big piles of logs, rotting in a corner, just let them be understand what nature needs and you start to do what you can. Because at the end of the day, the more of you that do that, then the more space will work but there will be for other life too.

Will McInnes 39:41

Absolutely. Fantastic. Well, I would love to say a massive thank you to you direct for the work that you do for the book that you've written for joining us on the podcast and in terms of people being able to to follow you you're at Gao underscore Derek. So that's g o w underscore Derek on Twitter. The book is bringing back the Beaver. Just thank you so much, Derek. I really, really appreciate what you've done is awesome.

Derek Gow 40:07

That's very kind glad we persevered.

Will McInnes 40:10

Yeah, me too. Thank you and keep up the great work.

Cities are ‘serendipity engines’ and ‘social super colliders’ as well as vital places that we live, according to our expert guest Jenni Lloyd - but are the operating models used to deliver our city services and governance fit for a world of continued social change and austerity in public spending? Instead, how can we build better communities and places?

"Austerity has dictated that there's scarcity, but actually there's almost an infinite abundance within communities, and the local authorities that have realized that have taken a very different approach"

In her work recently at the innovation foundation NESTA, thinker, advisor and strategist Jenni and her team published the six part New Operating Models for Local Government. Behind the scenes they spoke with frontline innovators finding new interesting ways to deliver public services in cities, many in communities the North of England, who have been collaborating to develop new responses based on fundamental questions like “What is the contract between the city and the citizen?” and “What is a good place, what is a good life?”, linking together ‘anchor institutions’ like local hospitals, police and other social services in helpful new ways.

By the end of this conversation you’ll be looking at your own cities as serendipity engines, as networks, as a holistic system and above all as places changing, right now.

Links

* Jenni Lloyd - Twitter

* New Operating Models for Local Government - NESTA

* ShareTown - NESTA interactive visual map with real examples of city innovation

* Asset-based Community Development (ABCD) - short video

Credits

* Music by Lee Rosevere

Automated transcript

So Jenni, you have a great history. And it would be brilliant, if you could just share, not the hour, the hour long version, but the which you warned it could take which, but if you could give us a brief potted history of Jenni Lloyd maybe starting from the beginning,

Jenni Lloyd 2:26

at the very beginning, 1968, I did a fine art degree. And I went to art college, and primarily to leave home and spent three years making things and with varying degrees of success. And then I left art college with a degree in fine art, which isn't a particularly saleable commodity. And I found my way to Brighton kind of randomly, because I wanted to not go home to where my parents live, because it's very boring. And I didn't want to stay where it was, because it's boring. So I came to Brighton, and I'm still in Brighton. So Brighton is important to me. But um, I think my first job out of college was cleaning toilets on the pier. And, and so I had no idea what I wanted to do, I had no idea what was available to me. And looking back at it. And I had had some stupid ideas like this whole thing about truth to materials and how I wouldn't use computers. And bearing in mind, obviously, that this is almost kind of before the internet. But, um, that kind of fell by the wayside when I got involved in. Again, just kind of serendipitously, like, randomly, I started using computers, because I was working for the local newspaper to process images. And I realised that a lot of the kind of artwork that I was still making, which is all kind of collage II, based that I could actually do in Photoshop. And, and that led me into years worth of kind of digital design and production. And, and I think I've always thought that my works followed the, the, what's the word, evolution of the web? So initially, just about interfaces. So how do people use things? And how can I make them do the thing that we want them to do online? And then kind of it got more social? And that that was really interesting, because then we started thinking about well, how to how do these things that we're using digitally, and map into what we do collectively anyway, so how to communities work, and how can we provide online spaces where people can behave as communities, and what does that mean for businesses? So you were there for that? And so it meant a lot for businesses. And I think I look back on in those early days of naivety about what we thought the social web might engender, with obviously no knowledge of where we would end up in terms of, you know, kind of Cambridge analytic or, and all those sorts of things. But we did have a notion that digital stuff would be massively impactful in terms of society and politics and relationships between individuals and businesses, and all that sort of thing. And when obviously, we were thinking that it would have a largely positive effect, and had no insight into what the kind of negative effects would be. Anyway, so I spent years as a kind of digital designer, producer, then user experience designer, and then eventually as a kind of consultant for organisations that were trying to make themselves more fit for a digital world. And so it's funny because digital transformation now has, you know, like a legacy in history. But at the time, those were new terms, I think social media was new term, when we were first working in it, there was debate over whether that was actually the right term, and it seems extraordinary now. But anyway, so things like the cluetrain manifesto were really important. And the way that we were trying to run ourselves democratically was really important and aligned to the way that we thought the web was going to make the world. And it felt like an opportunity to change the world. But and, but to do it through business, and, and the web. And so that was obviously enormously exciting. And not necessarily Well, you know, successful in terms of kind of growing a big business or whatever. But it certainly led me down really interesting routes, in terms of human behaviour, and the intersection between how we work together, collectively, but also how the internet kind of affects that. And so

over a period of time, I decided to shift from thinking about business and innovation, and all those kind of fairly logical, hard terms and thinking about how does, how do you use those tools to change society. And sounds quite grand and aspirational, I have say, none of this was a plan, it will just emerged. And the more I've kind of come to think about what I do and how I do it, the more interested I become an emergence. And the less I believe in plans, that won't be a surprise to you, but I don't really believe that plans are real. They're just an aspiration. So emergence actually kind of makes sense to me. So over time, I started thinking about how do we live? And where do we live? And how can you change how we live and where we live, to create better outcomes. And, and I became interested in the concept of eudaimonia, which is a Greek word, which I find difficult to spell. And but it means a sort of state of human flourishing. And as soon as I kind of read about that concept, I just thought, yeah, that's what I'm interested in, is, how does all this stuff that we do together in the world? How does it create a state of flourishing? And the more I think about it, the more obvious it's aligned to, to to ecology as well. And because humans can't flourish, if they totally f**k up the place that they live in, so, so yeah, a state of human flourishing is actually a state of kind of planetary flourishing as well.

Will McInnes 8:37

That's a lovely, it's a lovely intro and a lovely set up. And so more recently, this concept of eudaimonia, is that how you say,

Jenni Lloyd 8:48

I don't know, I say it the way I read it,

Will McInnes 8:50

eudaimonia, it starts with the letters, E, you if you're if you're typing it in right now. So that really resonated for you. And that's about a kind of holistic sense of flourishing. And then I know that you have a particular interest in how this happens around place, or around cities. So to just just tell it, take that little thread and run with it go there.

Jenni Lloyd 9:17

So we all live in places, and I live in a place. And I'm really interested in this place in Brighton. And it's partly obviously because I live here, and so I know it well. And, and also I've interacted with lots of different parts of it. And like kind of physically, but also the people who live in it, the different communities that live in it, and I can't care about it, so and so if that makes it more interesting, but also it's the right size. So at one point when I when I decided to shift from working in kind of corporate land, I knew that I wanted to work on place, and that the best place I could work on was the place that I lived in that I knew the best and that I cared about the most So I started my own, kind of, I hesitate to call it consultancy, like formerly it was, you know, it was registered with companies house and I paid tax and things like that. But actually, it was an experiment. So I set it up as a kind of one year experiment, I knew it wasn't going to have longevity, I was never going to try and employ people and things like that. And it was a mechanism for me to shift fields. So to shift from kind of corporate consulting into social innovation, and play space, social innovation, so I did some work for clients to, you know, pay for the mortgage and things like that. And but mostly I ran and kind of community projects or personal projects that had some influence on Brighton and, and there was quite a lot of stuff that I learned from that. Partly that once you start saying that you're interested in something and working in that space, then more things happen. And so I had an opportunity to work with white Sussex on them a play space project in Bognor Regis. And that that kind of that was work that gave me money in in the space that I was still interested in. But it was kind of thinking more about. This isn't necessarily true of Bogner. But the kind of intense the kind of conceptual things that I'm interested in, it's a it's cities as a place where and where people meet. And it's not necessarily city cities or cattle, but like towns and interesting to particularly interested in faded seaside towns for some reason. But um, there's a phrase, which is that cities are a serendipity engine. And I was interested in serendipity engines, which is a way of kind of engineering serendipity, which makes it sound like you shouldn't really be able to engineer serendipity. But you can. And there's various people have kind of written about how some places at some points in time become these kind of amazing spaces when new ideas happen. And so there are certain conditions that make that happen. But some of it, most of it is about the confluence of certain people in certain places. And, and some of the conditions for that are the kind of extraordinary mix of people. So different people with different ideas from all over the place. And obviously, that's, you know, can be called collective intelligence, and all those sorts of things. But there are various communities that have popped up at various times and produced extraordinary advances in lots of different things. And I'm interested in that, I suppose. And I started off being interested in that. And in terms of a place where people come together, and so cities are serendipity engines is a kind of catch all for that. But then I also started thinking about what's the role of spaces, particular spaces within a place. So there are some buildings, for instance, where extraordinary things start to happen. And and so I started thinking about that as a sort of social supercollider. Actually, how do you bring people together, and through events or places that that make new ideas happen, and, and so that's all about kind of advancement, I suppose, but advancement for the benefit of all. And, and so in order to, I suppose, formalise or consolidate some of that learning and learn from other people who've been doing this stuff for a long time, I joined Nesta, and, and, and within Nestor, I've had the opportunity to work on particular programmes have helped me and maybe expand that thinking and, and also spend some time with people who are actually working in places and have not just the kind of aspirational, conceptual underpinning that I'm interested in and have built up myself, but also kind of the nitty gritty How does this work?

Will McInnes 13:48

Yeah, that's what I'm really curious about is it sounds really cool, like serendipity engines? Yes, please, I'd like one, what what are the manifestations or practical examples that we could kind of sink our teeth into.

Jenni Lloyd 14:03

So I don't know who has actually cracked this. But what I can see is kind of signals like little signs and things that you could amplify and and join together. So over the last year or so, I've been running a programme called the upstream collaborative and which is was a kind of active learning network for 20 local councils. And those councils are kind of pioneering different ways of working. And the ways that they're working are very much about playing a particular kind of role as as kind of leaders within an ecosystem of other organisations. So institutions, organisations, communities, and individuals. And so that idea of well it goes back to sort of network thinking I think is, is an organisation like a local authority having a role as a kind of major node in the network. What I've realised I'm interested in is how we organise ourselves. And so it started off, when we were thinking about democratic business, how how we organise to get the best ideas, and the most out of people is when people are network together, loosely as opposed to create it into hierarchies, which limit thinking. So there's another phrase which I like, which is that the hierarchies of yesterday are no match for the speed required today. And, and so hierarchies are slow. And unless they're completely autocratic, and if they're autocratic, there's a weakness in that you're relying on one person to know everything. And that, for me, feels foolish. Whereas if you operate as a network, and with kind of strong links between different things, and different people, then you can operate at speed, particularly if everyone has a sort of clear idea of the kind of shared purpose and what the kind of values and principles are that bound what you do. So that feels like an organising principle that can be true within business, but also within any human space. And so the upstream collaborative counsels, I think, starting to behave as a node in the network, as opposed to an organisation at the top of a tree. And it's, you know, it's, it's fairly nascent, I think, and maybe not as conceptually clear as that. But in order to behave like that, then they have to change their relationships, they have to change the way they operate, and they have to change the way they think about power. And so like, where power lies, I think is one of the things that shapes how we organise ourselves, and and who has power, who can give it away how we can share that power, in a network power is more distributed.

Will McInnes 16:53

So this upstream collaborative project that you've been running, what was it seeking to do? Or how has it taken shape? What's been interesting to you about how it's panned out? Yeah, we

Jenni Lloyd 17:05

set it up cases, we can see that there's a kind of shift happening in local government. And I suppose I want to say something about local government. And maybe people think councils are boring. I know, whenever we're having conversations, kind of, you know, not, not not, not in work or whatever. But in the majority, people just think about the council's as being people who are late with the bins, or too expensive in terms of the parking. But and local government is fundamentally important. And, and a key part of the kind of democratic system, which I think we've kind of lost sight of. And so they hold the closest relationship between systems state. So our interactions with the council happen every day for everyone. So that feels really, really important to me. And councils are really, really interesting. So obviously, there's a whole load of stuff about central government, which is really difficult to get your head around. And it's less difficult to get your head around and the relationship between city and state when you think about the local level. And that's I'm really, really interested in that. So there is a shift happening in the way local government is operating. And we've sort of identified that. But we wanted to know what the nature of that shift was in the scale of it. So was it just a few good stories that kept on being retold? Or was this something kind of more significant happening? And originally, we were thinking we would run a programme. And but I think in trying to design the programme, we realised we didn't know enough. And so the best way that we could find, to, to find out more was to work with counsellors themselves. And so we thought that if we put together a network and join together the the pioneers, that actually we could help them to support each other, because it's hard making change in an environment that's, you know, bureaucratic and has statutory obligations, and all those sorts of things. So the change makers working in local government are really, really strong, but they need support. And they need to know that they're not alone. And so joining them together kind of gives them more power,

Will McInnes 19:14

I think. So when you say there are a few good stories, can you help bring that to life for people who don't know this domain? Like what was what were these whiffs or signals that you were picking up on?

Jenni Lloyd 19:24

So probably the primary one was the story around Preston. And so Preston is a town in Lincolnshire that, you know, he's kind of has a post industrial history and and over the last eight to 10 years, they've significantly and change their sort of economic structure using a model called Community wealth building. And what that says is that, that the local authority is a key player within a set of other institutions. which they call anchor institutions. And so by combining their, their sort of spending power, and creating rules around procurement that favour people within organisations within the local environment, then actually they can reshape their local economy. And they can also make commitments like so adopting the living wage, for instance, if the local university, the council, and the hospitals, you know, if if all the major of the police force for instance, if they all adopt the same principles around the living wage, then actually locally, and the average income rent rises. And, and that creates benefit all around. So economic benefit, and kind of flows from community wealth building. But it's not just about how you spend the money, it's also about the kind of purpose and ethos behind the work. So what kind of role that Council is taking, in terms of its relationship with citizens, and the outcome is seeking for the town. So economic development within places for a long time has been, and let's get a major investor, to pay for the creation of a shopping mall, you know, that sort of thing. So some kind of big multinational contracts will then construct a huge shopping mall, and then kind of global retail partners will then populate that shopping mall. And people will go and spend money there. And that sort of, you know, has happened everywhere. So, you know, it's a really common pattern. But if you think about where the economic benefit for that lies, it doesn't necessarily lie in the place where that shopping mall is constructed. It's, you know, it lives with the investors who, you know, make money from the from the stock price. So it's kind of that doesn't necessarily benefit the town in the way that it was supposed to. So instead, they're kind of like rethinking about, well, what kind of place do we want to have? What kind of economic structure Do we need to benefit the people in that place? So anyway, the Preston model has become a kind of a good story, and, and is being adopted elsewhere. So other other towns are following the lead. And community wealth building is kind of growing. And but there's other towns, so Barnsley, for instance, and Oldham and have all started working in different ways. And, and they're kind of, you know, you notice that they're the northern towns, and the North has a particular history in terms of being post industrial, and having, you know, bad economic problems. So there's also a massive discrepancy in terms of wealth, and between the North and South. So, you know, I think we often say that the UK is the kind of fifth largest economy in the world, that's mostly London, if you stripped London out of it, we're way down the leaves. So actually, there's a kind of huge inequality in terms of economics. And we can see that that trickles down into all of the kind of social aspects of life. And I think that inequality is one of the biggest problems that that we suffer from, and contend to social problems. So anyway, there are other towns, like Barnes and Oldham, who are adopting different models, and Barnsley, for instance, have changed the way almost the role of the counsellor. So they've almost like the job description of the elected member is much more about being a kind of community activist. And, and

there is a kind of money given to at the ward level. And so the local community can decide how to spend that budget. So it's a kind of almost like a redistribution of the spending power, and the decision making power back into the community. And that, again, is something that speaks to not just economics, but about community connection, and, and democracy. So, which if we want to rebuild democracy, which I believe we need to, then those are the kinds of activities that are starting to do that on the ground. And, and so those are the kinds of stories that were coming up. We had some target councils that we wanted to attract into the collaborative. And so bonds in Oldham did join the collaborative, so depressed and and we wanted Wigan and but we didn't get and so the Wigan deal is also kind of a kind of well known story, which is about kind of creating a different social contract. So, it's kind of like there is a specific contract, which is that if citizens within Wigan perform these particular activities than the council will guarantee them a kind of very low council tax. So it's a quite transactional but really groundbreaking. When it came about, and one that lots of others other councils have tried to follow in terms of actually, what is the contract between this organisation, the state's run organisation, and the citizens who live in a place?

Will McInnes 25:13

This is great. So what's coming through for me is, like this sense of cities as a unit. Like, that's what you're getting me excited about is I'm starting to see cities as a play Park, or a sandbox or a, like some kind of unit of change. And then within that, you're talking about redistribution, you're talking about democracy activism, engagement, like whether it's transactional, or or, or different somehow. So too, so that's what you're excited about?

Jenni Lloyd 25:48

Yeah. And they go? No. Yes. So and there's lots of stuff that I've been learning. So I'm in running the collaborative. And we spent quite a lot of time on the sort of discovery phase. So we went around, and we visited lots of different places. And so I had a good few months, kind of going around to places that I'd never visited before, like, red car, I can never been to red car. There's lots of places like Barnsley, I've never been to Bozeman, and, and seeing what those places are, like, and hearing about the work of the council is doing there. And trying to understand what's driving that? What, what is driving this change, and, and not just that, but what's enabling it, what's getting in the way, but what is it and, and, and it was different, you know, in each place, there was sort of variations between the initiatives that they'd undertaken. And, but there seemed to be commonality in terms of the sense of purpose. And, and for a long time, I've been interested in purpose as a kind of driver, and lightweight back, sort of from next mechanist days. And, but having a really clear sense of purpose. So in, in public service, which, you know, is interesting favourite anyway, because it talks about being in service. And there is always, I think, a background ethos of wanting to do the right thing. But, um, and wanting to help people. But organizationally, I think we've managed to constrain that to the point of that a lot of people really, really frustrated. So public services being treated as a commercial entity, for instance, and hierarchies and bureaucracies that get in the way of people doing the job, and maybe a lack of trust in terms of the public servant. And so thinking that they need checklists, because otherwise they'll do the wrong thing. And, and actually, a lot of those constraints are being broken by the kind of counsellors we've been working with. So instead, they're thinking more about trust, and empowerment for staff. So recognising that actually, fundamentally, most people are trying to do the right thing. And if you enable them to do that, then they can actually make better decisions than if you just conform to a checklist. And, but there's a kind of probably something bigger in terms of the the background to all this, which is austerity. And, and so for 10 years, the amount of money going into local government has fallen by 35%, something like that. There's no other organisations, I don't think, no other system that could take that scale of reduction of revenue. And I don't think it's really recognised just what a good job most councils have been trying to do. So they have statutory and, and things that they have to do. They have to look after children who need care, for instance, they have to look after all people that you know, that there are statutory obligations. And we can see this, that social care is falling apart, it's falling apart because it's not got enough money. And it can't behave as a business. Because that's not a market anyone wants, in some richer places, actually, social care and is, is less of a problem because people can afford to pay for, you know, nicer, and care homes. But generally, these are not places where the market works. And and so the kind of ethos of kind of commercialization and market driven stuff, it just doesn't work. And and I think it's been proven not to work. So it needs something else. And I think

in my head, I've called a lot of these councils like f**k it councils, because it's like they've got twin drivers of austerity, ongoing, massive austerity and reductions in in revenue. Plus a completely changing world. So the complexity that we're all experiencing in business everywhere else, councils experience that you've got ageing populations, you've got changing needs of people, you've got a changing sort of levels of demand. So the demand is rising, particularly as the whole economy kind of falls away, then, then more people need help from public services. And so they've got all of these drivers. And over 10 years, they've tried prudently to make things more efficient to cut here to cut there, they call it salami slicing. And, and in the end, there's nothing left. Like you can't make any more efficient. And he kind of, he can't spend less. And so they're kind of gone. F**k it, what else can we do? And a lot of them I've actually used that, I think is an opportunity to, to reconnect to the idea of what is it we're trying to do? And we want to make people's lives better? And then what is our role in this? And, and so a lot of them have decided that the right thing to do is to head upstream is to thank you. So if you think about, I don't like a hospital as being downstream as an institution, you end up there because something bad has happened. How do you stop that bad thing from happening? So for instance, loneliness, like, loneliness leads to mental health problems, which leads people to the GP, which leads to prescriptions. How do you create a community that provides people with the opportunity to connect, and therefore in conditions like bereavement or you know, like circumstances in their lives? How can the community play a part that prevents loneliness that prevents anxiety and depression that prevents the prescription? And so it's kind of how do you how do you create the conditions for people to flourish. And, and that's what these councils are trying to do. And that's why I find them like totally inspiring, because they're trying to do it within massive constraints. But they're trying to do it in the face of, you know, kind of personal difficulties as well, because to be the person trying to do something different in a system is hard. They're doing it, and they are having results. And there are stories in there that can be joined together, they can learn from each other, they can support each other, they can be amplified. And I think if you were to, to become if this way of operating was to become more mainstream, actually, you'd have a very, very different system, one where more people will be able to float. So that's what I find.

Will McInnes 32:35

That's incredibly exciting. I absolutely love it, it's really enjoyable. And I'm sure they'd love that badge, you've given them of being f*****g count. We are proud members, founding members of the fuckit Brigade, I

Jenni Lloyd 32:48

have to say that hasn't come up in any of the reports we've just published. It's

Will McInnes 32:52

not official, that's, that's your own special code. So So, what if there is this emergence, early emergence of a new mode, a new way of being for these local governments? Or these institutions What? What characterises it, as you see, as you see this shift happening? What is there less of and what is there more of?

Jenni Lloyd 33:23

So I think it comes back to the kind of organisations they are. And and, and that's why the work ended up being about operating models. And for a long time, I couldn't get anyone excited, I couldn't really get excited about the time new operating models myself. And it took me a while to make the link. So I was more upstream. I was more excited about the upstream part of things. And you know, kind of actually how do you stop problems before they happen? And but a colleague was the one who was kind of she was banging on about your pricing models for ages. And she laid the foundations for the work. And, and it's because in order. So

the kind of work that these councils are doing are innovations. But they're the kind of innovations that there's a term which is architectural innovations. They're the kind of innovations that require a different kind of organisation in order to deliver them effectively. And there is other examples from the commercial world and once I realised that if I of course, right. So why why did Xerox give away the GUI to Apple, you know, so So, why were they unable to deliver on the promise of that? Why did Nakia not make a smartphone, you know, like, there are lots of technological innovations and which are created by existing organisations that can't, they can't change themselves enough to deliver on them. And but within the world of kind of public service, a council doesn't have a disrupter. They can't be an apple. I've heard someone saying, you know, to local authorities, you know that, yeah, you need to be more Netflix than blockbuster. And it's kinda like, it's a nice phrase. But how, how do you do that. And then in one of the first conversation, someone said, something like, you've got to change the wheel while you're driving the car. And it's true, like they can't stop doing what they're doing. Like they can't stop providing services for people who need them. And but at the same time, they also have to do new things. And they also don't have an r&d fund, or any kind of investment in innovation, there isn't anything. So how do you do new stuff. And so what I think the kind of councils within the upstream collaborative have been doing is they've been creating a new operating model for themselves. And, and that operating model is this kind of purpose on one side, and outcomes. On the other hand, the operating model provides a bridge between purpose and outcomes. And right in the middle of that is mindset. So the mindset that they've adopted, is very different. So it's collaborative. And it sees itself as, as part of a system as a, you know, a kind of leader within a system, but definitely not the sole player. And, and it kind of takes the kind of system view of a place. So and that kind of mindset in in infuses everything. And so there's a set of values in place, which there was a lot of commonality between the values that we could see. But there's also kind of principles, which are almost like design principles. So almost, I always think about principles as being like instructions for how you do what you do. And so this operating model, I think, the top half of it, because we obviously have made a pretty diagram of it. The top half of it is about being so like, the kind of like the more sort of fundamental fundamentals or worldviews or belief driven stuff. And then the bottom half of it is infrastructure and capabilities. And I think very often, like people looking at organisations only really see infrastructure and capabilities. But how those infrastructure and capabilities are put into place, and put into use is massively influenced by and the kind of values principles and the kind of underpinning mindset. And so the way that people, for instance, are put into place, and how you believe those people should behave, like what kind of tools they use, all that sort of thing. It's all influenced by the mindsets underneath it. So so that's the kind of the work that's come out of it, which is to be able to almost like codify, what is the difference? And in in, in being able to codify it? How do you create a narrative around it, that means other people can adopt it? And that's kind of what we've been publishing over the last couple of weeks, is a kind of new operating models handbook. So like setting out the, the, like what we've seen, and case studies from different councils, but then also like, how do you take it from the margins to the mainstream? How do you overcome some of the barriers, and some of the biggest barriers are things like, attributes was risk, huge, and ways of measuring, so measuring targets, KPIs, all that sort of stuff, fundamentally influence how people deliver the job. So all of those things have kind of come up. And we've kind of written about them, and tried to, in a way, sort of disseminate them. But I think that it comes back to, again, the way that we organise. And I think one of the most

kind of exciting moments for me was when I understood why, and so many councils were so interested in something called an asset based community development, which is a terrible name. If, if I had my way, it would be renamed but it it already had its thing, so it can't be renamed. But ABCD kind of is a way of operating within communities. And very often it can be just communities within themselves. But local authorities can play a part and the part that they play can be as an enabler of the capacity of the community. And there was something really, really important in terms of mindset in that which is instead of seeing communities as being pockets of demand, so places that have needs that public service. system service. And instead to see them as places that are full of different assets. And those assets might be might be things might be places might be green spaces might be village halls, you know, all those other places that could provide opportunities for people to gather, also people themselves and the skills they have the passions, they have the appetites they have, you know, there is something fundamental about, I think we all know, people within a community who kind of go like, No, we need this. And, and very often they, they have the energy to gather people around them, and they make things happen, local authorities can find those people, they can find those places. And by doing that they can almost create an abundance, where austerity is dictated that there is scarcity, but actually, there's almost infinite capacity within communities, and the local authorities that have realised that have taken a very different approach. And for me, that's the kind of key thing alongside and heading upstream, and understanding themselves as being players within the wider system. And also seeing the capacity and their ability to unlock that capacity in communities. Those feel like the fundamentals of changing

Will McInnes 41:19

that is awesome. I love it. And does that take us then to, to eudaimonia? Like, are we full circle yet? Or are we not quite ready for utopia?

Jenni Lloyd 41:30

So are we Yeah, so, um, in terms of outcomes and purpose, and the way that we hesitate to say eudaemonia in public service land, in fact, I don't think I've ever said that to the council's. But we've entered instead, sort of recognise that the purpose that the councils are playing, or kind of have taken on board is their role in creating the conditions for people in place to flourish. And that the outcomes, therefore, should be flourishing people and flourishing places. And if you think about that, you can break that down into a set of goals, you know, like indicators, rather about, like, how would you know that someone was flourishing? Like, the sort of, economically you can look at Preston, for instance, and look at the increase in average income, that would dictate, you know, like, that would be a good indicator, but you can also think about non financial returns. And, and so I've spent some time thinking about that. And in fact, last year, we created a board game, and it's to try and work through or, or, by playing to help people understand the different aspects of, of what a flourishing community might look like. But, um, there's a, there's a psychologist I was working with, and she introduced me to some work, and that they created a group called psychologists against austerity. And, and they'd, they'd started looking at, well, what are they? And what aspects of psychological health exist within people and communities, and they broken it down into kind of five indicators. And, you know, lots of people are talking about well, GDP is the wrong indicator of of health of a nation, for instance. And let's so there's a movement towards looking at well being indicators. But these five aspects of psychological health felt to me they just feel really right. And so, like a core one is agency. So to what degree do people feel that they have some choice in the decisions that they make in the way that they lead their lives, and security, so how security you feel in your neighbourhood? And I'm going to find it difficult to remember five, but connection. So to what degree do you feel connected to where you live, and the people around you? And I can't remember the other two, and in the councils that we've been sort of working with, so for instance, Leeds, Leeds, and we were working with the kind of adult social health department. And they've gone heavy on asset based community development, and particularly around isolation and loneliness, because connection is the antidote to loneliness, collection, connection and belonging, which is one of the other five and so that comes from communities. So I don't think most people want a befriending service. You know, do you want someone who is your friend because it's their job? And or do you instead you you want to feel like you walk down the street and you recognise people, people recognise you, you know, those sorts of things. And so, leads have put in place, kind of one of their KPIs is that everyone in Leeds should have three good friends

and you know, like How many? How many times have you thought that that's the job of the council, but it's not, you know, they're not making people have friends through pretending services, they're creating the conditions through which people can make connections with people who will become their friends. And so that creates a network of support that goes way beyond what public services can deliver. So it's kind of public services should be the kind of net, but the actual kind of flourishing place would provide those things anyway. And it's almost like self sustaining. Because the more connected a community is, the more connected it becomes. And so for me, that feels like again, the that we look at resources in terms of money. And I think that there's a mistake or a misunderstanding of the resources that are available to us. And so austerity dictates that there's not enough money and and that we can't pay for this. And so therefore, it kind of breeds a desperate scrabbling and a competition for resources. Where if we see money as just being one of the resources that's available to us, but actually, we have all these other resources that are available within communities, then actually, that shifts us into a kind of abundance mindset. Because you can't, you know, you can't have too much connection, you can't have too much belonging. So it's kind of, I think that that's what we're starting to see. And I do believe there's a kind of there is starting to be a kind of almost international movement around looking at what are what what is a good place, what is a good life, and recognising that actually, money isn't much to do with it. I do want to say, obviously, that I don't believe that we should be defunding public services. And that's the kind of key criticism that can be levelled at any work that looks at driving the capacity of the community. Because there's a horrible kind of legacy of David Cameron's kind of big society, which is basically that we have volunteers can deliver public services. And that's, you know, monstrously untrue. And, and so there is always the need for a fully funded state, and fully funded public services. But there's different ways of creating the conditions that in which people's needs can be met. And they don't necessarily lie within public services.

Will McInnes 47:26

Amazing, really, really interesting. And I can see and feel a sense of coming full circle, when he talks about how more connections compound and create more connections, I could see a trace back to the, to your opening, excitement and love of cities, I've always thought of cities as Super connected networks. And back to your serendipity engines. So the report that you released, I'll include it in the show notes, but if you just give us a quick shout out of what it's called, or where people can find it,

Jenni Lloyd 48:00

yeah, it's, um, it's a set of six reports, and which are kind of collected together under the name and new operating models handbook. And the handbook is really aimed at being a kind of practitioners guide to new ways of working in local government. So there's kind of six parts, there's the introduction to new operating models, which talks about the drivers, and it talks about what the model that we've seen emerging, and it gives examples of how that's being put into place by different councils. And so it kind of gives a shout out to the, to the different councils have been involved in the upstream collaborative. And then we've got kind of different more sort of tool based papers. So actually, how do you move this from the margins, the mainstream, what are the enablers? And that would enable this kind of shift to grow within an individual organisation? And how do you think about risk? So reframing risk is one of our papers. And, and also, we did some kind of rapid research over the COVID period, to see how local authorities were responding to COVID. And what's and what benefits the new operating model they've already adopted and would have in that instance, and so there's a paper specifically dedicated to that. And so yeah, six papers, new operating models handbook. Everyone should read it.

Unknown Speaker 49:23

I'm sure they will.

Will McInnes 49:26

And as we as we bring this brilliant conversation to a close, I suppose. Just briefly, your appetite for what snacks like Well, what I love about you, Jenni is you're you're just relentless curiosity and restless inquiry into the world. So what's what's next for your interest? What are you interested to follow up on?

Jenni Lloyd 49:53

Want to keep going on this frame and I'm not done with local government and I'm not done with places, I think I've just scratched the surface to be honest. And so there is a movement called, so difficult to say, I don't know why the things I'm interested in always have bad names, but this is a new municipalism which is something that I want to get more involved in to explore further, and new economic models. So new economic models being about ownership, and, and kind of more distributed forms of ownership within kind of businesses, social enterprises, things like that. I'm really interested in community owned assets, for instance, very interested in community land trusts, and that fundamentally, everything comes down to who owns what, and the inequality of who owns what, and how a lot of that is based in, you know, William the Conqueror, giving loads of lands to people who helped him, you know, kind of win. And, and that's still being the basis, and for a lot of our ownership structures, and and that's still having an impact, really interested in actually how do you create more distributed forms of ownership and in terms of kind of places, and but also how you encourage communities to take ownership of things themselves, how you kind of almost liberate communities, and what impact that has in, in the kind of sense of connection that they have. So that feels like something I want to explore. And I'm still really interested in local government. So anything that could join together, new operating models, new economic models, and new municipal ism, all the news. And, and ideally, obviously, in Brighton, but not sure about that. And I suppose the other sort of really big thing that's on the horizon. And that I haven't connected with fully but I want to is, and the work of the donut economics lab, which is Kaypro worth and exploration of how donut economics can be and cited in a place. So she's been doing some really great work in Amsterdam, and has created a platform to see how it could be proliferating to other places. And I want to get involved in some of that. But I think the thing that I'm always interested in is how they connect. And so I think that's probably what I'm most interested in is connecting things. And so all of those things that I just said that had new in front of them, and plus donut economics. And yeah, I want to find an opportunity for that somewhere somehow.

Will McInnes 52:33

I absolutely love that journey. And I challenge myself and anyone listening to this, to come up with as immediate and interesting sounding list of things that one is currently pursuing. That is what life is about is about. What's next. What am I interested in? What am I learning about? I absolutely love it. So thank you so much, Jenni. And where can people follow your pursuits and interests online? Is there a sort of place we can point people to

Jenni Lloyd 53:01

probably still Twitter. And so at Jenni Lloyd genuine I know he and but also, I mean, the stuff we've published is all on the Nesta website and hopefully will be for some time to come. Very cool. Jenni Lloyd, je

Will McInnes 53:16

Je n n. I LLOYD. Good stuff. Thank you so much for joining me on the conversation today. Jenni.

Jenni Lloyd 53:25

Thank you very much Will.

Fighting Covid-19 on the frontlines to save critically ill patients - what must that be like? As an NHS doctor in the UK seconded to emergency intensive care wards, Dr Dominic Pimenta was right there as the first tidal wave broke over London, UK.

And with that began a mission, first by founding a charity to equip his fellow healthcare professionals with the support and resources they needed. And now by pursuing the misinformation swirling around the topic, misinformation potentially as deadly as the virus itself with the ability to cause of many hundreds of thousands more deaths.

In this fascinating conversation, we hear Dr Dom’s first-hand perspective on the rapidly evolving reality of public health through this pandemic. From the visceral, practical reality of ‘charging through corridors’ setting up new intensive care wards and the emotions from discharging the first recovered patients, into the curiosity of the human condition - why do not just laypeople but also medics, scientists and even epidemiologists find themselves falling for the allure of misinformation.

Links

* Dr Dominic Pimenta - Twitter

* Healthcare Workers Foundation - charity.

* Modern Society Initiative - thinktank.

* Duty of Care - Dom’s latest book, ‘a tense and gripping account of the unfolding pandemic from a doctor who was there’. With all royalties going to the HWF charity.

Credits

* Big thank you to Jonny Sawyer for introducing Dom

* Music by Lee Rosevere 

Automated transcript

Will McInnes 0:00

I am very excited to be here today with Dr. Dom or Dominic Pimenta, who is a doctor but also wears quite a few different hats. so dumb. You're a doctor in your day job. You're the chair of the healthcare workers foundation. Yeah. A director of the modern society initiative. and author of duty of care.

Dr Dominic Pimenta 0:23

That's right. Yeah, that's all. Good. I suppose they can. They can. Yeah.

Will McInnes 0:30

And other responsibilities? Our Yeah. Let's just park the family. And other I guess if we start at the beginning, like with all good stories, how did you end up becoming a doctor? Like, what's your path?

Dr Dominic Pimenta 0:45

Well, I like to tell you that there's some sort of fictional childhood event where somebody was sick. And then the doctor came out nicely, it's really boring. I can't honestly remember why I wanted to be a doctor, I can't remember ever not wanting to be a doctor. So it's like that. I don't have access to have the best. It's a weird thing for doctors that I don't have the best memory. So events that are five to 10 years old, I really sometimes really struggle. So I do wonder if there was something I remember looking out a window once and thinking, Oh, when I die, I don't have any money. This was this because what my family or christian right, so we talked about death and heaven all the time. So I had this idea that when I die, I can't take any money with me. So what's the point in money, which actually is a very bad attitude, I've only just realised that I have. And I need to talk out now because I've got kids. But at the time, I was like, oh, okay, so what will be useful? And then I had this idea vaguely that, you know, after we all die, maybe the people I looked after, or whatever, maybe that's why I don't know, it's very vague. But the really the honest answer is I don't remember. And I was always on this pathway, since I don't know, like five or six. And anybody would say, What do you want? Do you want to be a doctor, and I just, you know, pick my GCSEs A Levels and, and very foolishly applied to for medical schools assumed again, all of them didn't get into it. Now, I've got to tell you, I've got into one of them. And I just assumed I was gonna go to medical school. So I applied for medical school, went to the interview, didn't really prepare at all, and spent the night before the interview just going out with the other interviewees there because you know, this is gonna, I'm going to walk this. And then I sat down, and weirdly enough, I'd read about Oxbridge interviews, right. And I thought, because I came from a state schools, I had no idea. I didn't know anybody. They've been taught to Cambridge. And I read this thing that in Oxford interviews, they want you to be weird and wacky, and show all your different thoughts and make weird connections. But that's probably not the case for medical school interview. So I turned up, and they showed me these pictures, this is the like, thing, right? They showed me these pictures of different like anatomy, I think there's some cells, there's like lots of things that you would make sensible medical connections with. And then I really hadn't really prep very much and had no idea what most of the stuff was. So I made lots of weak connections. And like the last two or three, I actually run out of ideas as well. So I just like, they were like, why did you put these two together with Oh, they're both sort of brown. And they look to me, like, what's wrong with you? And I thought that would be quite abstract and quirky. And they thought that you have just ruined this interview for us. And you know, at the end, they were like, Okay, do you have any questions that are just asked you, and I'm here. And obviously, I didn't get in. And actually, that was quite interesting. For the first time I'd ever sort of thought, Oh, actually, this pathway is not going to work out. And I had a sort of existential crisis. And then very weirdly, on the day of eucast, I was only allowed to apply to one London medical school. And but obviously, because I came from the south coast, and my mom was like, if you go to London, you're gonna get stabbed. So you can only apply to one. And that doesn't make any sense, right? But anyway, that's what that's what that's actually what happened. And on the day of UK, some some Sunday Times list or something came out and then I Imperial was my choice for like, the whole time. And on that single day, I just changed my choice for no reason at all, other than I seen something on the internet about five minutes before from Imperial to UCL. And I got into UCL. And that's where my wife and you know, we have kids and you know, this is funny how life just flips like that. And yeah, and that's when I went to medical school and have a great time really is it's amazing, central London, very different. And then I six years and then so finished in 2012 and went to work in so me and my wife flux of LinkedIn applications together. So we went to work and what we thought was quite a small deanery in Oxford. But very weirdly, we didn't talk about the jobs that we would apply for, doesn't apply for nearly exactly the same jobs. So I actually did, we did the same jobs for two years. So I would do the job. I think I was first I would do it. And then she would be the next doctor following me. Which is really funny because we could be About the same people, right, and you know all the ins and outs when you come into the, into the department. So it was actually it's actually great. And then after two years, we came back to London. And then I became a heart doctor, and was a heart doctor from 2016. And in various London hospitals, up until basically September this year, so about two months ago.

Will McInnes 5:25

Love it, that's already a brilliant and interesting beginning, we're going to be talking about misinformation around COVID. And you've written this book, about your experiences on the frontline, as a doctor working in ICU. everyone listening to this will want to want to hear a little bit about that experience. So just give us a flavour of of what it was like whether it's through a story or whether it's just your overall experience. What was it like, being a doctor working on the frontlines of this pandemic?

Dr Dominic Pimenta 6:02

Yeah, I mean, the book decides to quit plug for the book there. So it's, um, it's called duty of care. And actually, if you get out before the 30th of November, it only 99 p on Kindle right now, and actually got, I'm currently in the charts. I'm 28. And Obama is 27. I don't know this Obama guy, the pandemic, I found myself weirdly across lots of different elements of it like right at the beginning. Me and my wife were really super anxious about it, thought it was going to be this catastrophic, global changing event. And then weirdly turned out to be pretty much right about that, which was the curveball, I think, no, everyone else thought that we were insane actually have to say for like four weeks. And there's this really horrible isolating period of going up to people saying, Ah, Covid is coming, have you done the numbers, we're gonna have thousands in it. And they were like, Nah, be okay. But you know, they're completely on the other side of this glass. And we'd already stepped through that, you know, into this weird world. And weirdly, for us, I suppose, when the lockdown came in, you know, and everyone, we were sort of on TV calling for early lockdown. And it's all very controversial. But a week later, there we are full lockdown. Everybody stay at home. It was weird. Like, I mean, lots people wouldn't be very anxious. But for us, it was a big relief, because at least everybody's on the same page. So remember that sort of being the first like transition from the sort of real ish world to something entirely surreal. And I actually remember for like the first, you know, most of March and, and lots of February and loads of doctor's experiences, nobody was sleeping, everybody who was thinking about this was not sleeping, because it's just this gnawing anxiety that you can't do anything about, I talk about in the book of exactly that sensation of like a tidal wave on the horizon. And you can see it and you know, what's going to happen, and it's coming, and about 90% of the people in the beach, do not want to hear it. And that is really like a horrible thing to feel I don't ever want to have to be like it. But once it happened, and then it was sort of like this, you know, and it weirdly, again, it sounds weird, but actually dealing with crisis in emergencies is kind of like the gears that you're taught as a doctor. So actually, that bit is much more not easy to deal with, but you have the gears to deal with it. But having said that, it did feel especially because we were in London, it did feel exactly like a huge wave just crashing. And what's really like different I suppose to how maybe other crises in the past were experienced by individuals was we have access to people's thoughts from WhatsApp. I'm in a WhatsApp junior doctor group. And it was like the whole you know, you could get the sensation of the whole of London I boiling and seething with all of these crazy stories, you know, day one, North Park hospital, we're going to be fine. Day two, black alert, day three. It's like the worst hit country, the worst Hospital in the country. And that happened in just 48 hours. And like people just have never seen anything like this before. And it was exactly I think everybody had that sensation. I we've never seen anything like this before. I mean, I've worked in horrible flu seasons about tonight to you a little bit before I was a heart doctor is one of my rotations. So I had some flavour of it. But really, it was just, you know, we had stories about hospitals closing because they ran out of oxygen or hospitals closings, they had no beds, like situations that had never happened. You know, the idea that the oxygen could run out of the wall was completely insane to like most people if you weren't if you didn't work in the States, you never thought about that. It's like saying, you know that the air ran out in in actual the actual air right? It's just doesn't happen in medicine. So where I was working, we were working in a sort of tertiary hospital. So we would take patients and and we had the, I suppose luxury but we had to close all of our operations, close loads of our normal activity and the doctors I myself were parachuted in to intensive care. So I started in quite early on about the sort of middle of March, end of March. And it was just, it was I thought about the book because we work in shifts, right? And we all shift to a shift pattern, you do not have to three shifts on four shifts, or three shifts, which is quite unusual actually, for doctors, nurses do that all the time. But it had this weird sort of staccato effect where you'd come in and see what's going on. See these patients coming in and sort of that, but it didn't, it didn't come in, like the deluge that you'd expect. It came in big jobs. So you come in, you know, the first shift, I think I worked in one, it was full of COVID patients already. And we're like, wow, that's quick. There's 12 patients. And then the next time I came in, which was almost a week later, so you do four days off, and you come back in, there's two it us, right, so it's doubled. And that's it. But that was happening, right? The the patients were doubling every two to three days. And that was the that was true from the end of February. And that's why you could see this long tail into the future, which was terrifying. And then actually, we ended up having for it like fourth completely new it is in the six it is in total at the hospital, and more and more patients and we started running out of drugs, we ran out of the drug to sedate people out of the drugs to paralyse people for ventilation. But what was really interesting actually was over time, or at least where we worked, that the attitude very much changed. At the beginning, it was very grim. And everybody was very much in the sort of this is going to be horrible and traumatic, and there's actually not much we can do, we'll just try to do our best keep people ventilated, but most of these patients will die that because that was the data we had, right. And we had and from China, and from Italy, about 80% of people weren't surviving intensive care. But over the course of the pandemic, obviously, actually care got much better. And one of the big drivers of that is probably resources. So where places like Lombardi were completely overwhelmed, they had no resources, and then instantly the death rate spirals. And that's exactly why you know, the lock downs we have now so important because there's only in the NHS particularly has various capacity. And anyway, it's coping right now, even we are locked down is the fact that it's already cancelled all the operations, again, to cope basically to any stays in ICU, etc. So over the course of the pandemic, and over the course of this sort of six weeks, you know, locked down for us was a tangible thing, we had this huge expansion, and then this tail off around the end of April, and then patients started getting better again, because we had the luxury of expanding, we didn't have to stop, we didn't have to say we've got no more beds, we just kept going kept creating and creating charging through car doors. So we had the option of having patients on ventilators for 689 weeks. And remarkably, a huge number of those, the ones that we had written off not written off in the sense like that, but like I was particularly pessimistic about go better. And actually, I remember sort of end of April discharging our first patient discharge out of there, like 10,000 patients by now something from one war to another of one, but it's completely and actually, it's kind of the boring thing, normally on a ward round. But we went round, and suddenly it was it was actually me I was the decision making register at that time, that would say you are fit for the ward. And obviously the plan have been for this guy to go to the wards for days for weeks before that. But it just happened to meet me at the end, it was actually like a really, I was actually generally very emotional. Because I was under them. You know, we were all under the impression that we were not discharged. Anybody. And actually there are some there were some hospitals at the time that really struggled. And certainly had very high mortality rates, but we we actually didn't.

So we had this you know, people getting better and and going and eventually the you know, by what time I finished it by the end of August, we had no Covid patients. So we've gone, you know, and we're closing it us and this weird like party atmosphere as we're transferring patients and closing it down and closing it down. But even at that point, you know, even at that point, in augers cases, we're starting to rise again, in the young people. And then we have this weird this kind of a segue into maybe misinformation. But this weird Rise of the, I don't know what to what to call them really Rise of the pseudo scientists, the rise of the COVID denied it. And the first thing, the first time I caught wind of this was as cases arising, people started saying, Oh, that's just because of testing. It's like, but doesn't make any sense. Like, if you just look at it for five minutes, tests have gone up by this much in cases have gone up by two or three times that so it cannot be because of testing. It doesn't make sense. And yet, you know, Daily Mail spectator, Facebook, and my wife so it was some of these I think when you go on Facebook anymore, I haven't for years, actually. But um, she's in one of these doctors groups. And what really shocked me was some of this COVID denialism and, you know, pseudoscience was actually being talked about in all in seriousness by genuine real doctors. As I already think of it, what do you think of this as you're shaping this thing? And I actually I was sitting there because you know, having just done covert ICU, and there's this guy, it's called Ivor Cummins. You may have come across him. He's actually a I think he's actually an agent. up in a Hewlett Packard printer used to work, there was an engineer. Maybe he's got a keto book to sell. Because everybody who, who seems to be in the game has a keto book or a Diet book to sell. And he was making all these videos on YouTube and like gaining like a million views like, you know, and actually they've been taught by so I watched one I literally I've never you know that that spit take, you know, when you spit out that I was what I had a cup of tea about. I watched the first three minutes, I actually spat out on my laptop. And this was like what was like he's literally said about 100 completely factually incorrect things in the first three minutes. This is a 45 minute video. And that's kind of when I just like, you know, I kind of thought is this worth my time to like, look through as an intensive care. I've seen you know, I've seen things also I've seen a very skewed, I've seen the sickest people with COVID I haven't actually seen funnily enough, very well, people with COVID at all, because it just wasn't my department. I wasn't in any, I didn't work on the ward. So actually, I just saw the ones who were really, really sick and I needed to go and like lung bypass like this and called ECMO and the extreme end. But to me, it was like, you know, and the lockdown is like, this is all this is a real like, you know, this, I've seen it seen the numbers I can give you like the typical COVID patient and the number CT etc. And then to hear this guy be like, Oh, yeah, COVID not real, it's just as bad as fluid as like, this just doesn't just insane. But then it kind of really speaks to the fact that and this is you know, I think a big problem in the NHS actually, that because of the the politics and the media view and how politicised you know from from Whitehall. Basically, if you annoy Whitehall's the chief exec, you probably don't keep your job for very long. So, but almost, you know, and that's not to say that the managers and I've saved NHS managers over the course of pandemic, absolutely exemplary like we were working and made like you know, on call 24 seven all the time dealing with a crisis that nobody's trained no infrastructure for and yet still, you know, just doing the absolute best they can. But it does inherently mean that the top echelon is politicised. And actually what happens then? So we have this great, you know, very, very tough discussing with media having people in and there were a few, you know, bbc documentaries, or Channel Four, but mostly it was a closed shop. And there were very few people who were able to talk about it. And as a consequence, I think initially, everybody went with it, but naturally into the vacuum, people will start to insert Well, actually, the hospitals are empty, and they will I've just seen them on Tick tock, you know, I keep getting this is really annoying. just seen on Tick Tock dancing, so nothing's happening, or I've looked up the the NHS stats, and actually it says that the hospitals got loads of beds. So what are they talking about? And that, actually, I think it's very hard for lots of health care workers. I mean, I find it particularly offensive, but I think everybody finds pills like that. Because it's a horrible system. People are actually traumatised from from what happened. And I mean, nurses, more other health care workers more than doctors, I would imagine. Because it's, you know, this thing about being out of control and being powerless. And then you got this Irish guy who's like,

Oh, yeah,

he's got a nice voice. I give him that. Like, I go into it. But he, he talks about, you know, it's not happening, or it's just following natural curve or the pandemic over. And there was this real, I mean, everybody wants it to be over, you know, even people like even even my own sister, she was like, This is not happening. We're not having another way. And she was like, she co founded the charity with me. She was here every single day. She lived with us during a lockdown. She saw I thought, you know, we talked about patients every single day. But she's back to normal life. Everybody did.

Will McInnes 18:45

I'd love to unpack or trace the steps of why we think people may have such an appetite for these mistruths and misinformation, and disinformation. At the moment, you mentioned one driver there with your sister, which is just there's just the understandable human desire for it to not be so that you mentioned also, you know, the kind of seeming connection between these deniers and weird books they have to promote or Bitcoin scams or whatever their particular shell, I think there's other stuff in the mix too. Because for the general population, including me, we found ourselves having to try and compute from what we could read and try and discern for ourselves like what the truth is, because there was a lack of consistent, authoritative, clear information. It felt it felt very fluid. And I feel like that's a driver to the greyness, of everything has left has left all kinds of people with all kinds of theories.

Dr Dominic Pimenta 19:51

I think I'd 100% agree. So the basic I was talking about with the day so some public health colleagues and yeah, there's Two things that you can do in a public health, especially in a pandemic, where there's not really any treatment, I mean, the vaccine might come down the line in a few months. But there's not, there's nothing else you can do other than public behaviour. And the only way to influence is to maintain trust and have transparency. And at the beginning, you know, even in beginning of February, March, there seemed to be this political battle with, you know, Johnson giving a speech in Greenwich saying, we're going to be the Superman that's going to take off the glasses and champion free exchange, regardless of the medicine or whatever he said. And you know, even you know, privy to some of those discussions about when when lockdown should come in, and this is, you know, talking about herd immunity at the beginning of March. So that already, then there's some confusion, but then they started having the daily briefings and everything sort of coalesced. And there was this very strange moment where everybody in this very divided country seemed to be relatively on the same page for about five minutes. And actually, this I think, I think, the clapping some people found a bit corny, I personally was super cynical, I thought, I would think this is a load of crap. And then my sister was like, do you need to go outside the clapping for you the clapping for those that you know, it's happening for other health care workers, we should go outside at least and, and as soon as I heard it, I was super emotional, because it was that whole thing about about being on the same page everyone together. But you know, the, the actual reality of that was we had the daily briefings, we had witty and van Tam and all those superstars, talking every single day. And everybody was sort of understanding, you know, the basics. This is what the parent is, but then over a period of time, it started to get frayed. There was a lot of grandstanding, oh, it will be over by Christmas. And then we went into the coming thing. And that's exactly when they completely blew up all of that trust all of that transparency. And actually, at the time, I was like, because obviously, I didn't even know it. But famously, I resigned over this issue. And I said, you know, that why would they blow up this trust and transparency, when it's the only tool we have to prevent a second way, or the only is any trust, it's only you know, and if we, you know, create that vacuum, destroy that trust, create that grey space that you talked about? What will come in is going to be ineffective, and we will have a lot more deaths. And that's exactly what happened, sadly. But the but yeah, even at the time, I was like, well, there must he must, you know, there must be something there must be some grand plan for government, there must be some super kompromat that he's got on the whole cabinet. I don't know. But it's got to be good. Because this is all for how much political capital Have you burned for this? How much lives are going to be lost as a consequence? And then he just walked, like, he just walked like 10, like five months afterwards? Because he had a spat with whatever else, you know, Lee cane or whatever. Anyway, I completely digress. But I think you were pointing exactly right. That it is that clear, consistent messaging. And actually, if you look around the world, the countries that have done the best have just been clear and consistent, like Angela Merkel, will, you know, every time she opens her mouth about COVID, it's clear, it's concise. It's on message, it rarely changes. And actually, it's really useful. I was sharing clips from her in German subtitles a look at this, this is probably the best thing I've heard about COVID in months, because it was just so straightforward. There was no this like, flip flopping on mosque flip flopping on whatever else is, and actually, you know, Sweden. Everybody wants to think all Sweden's the best. Actually, Sweden is now having some of the worst tests in the world again, and already had it whereas Norway and Finland comparatively have done completely much, much better, no deaths, and actually no second wave this time around because people actually trust the process. But the one thing that they were really good at was that everybody believed in Anders technical and he would give very good clarifies, he said, this is the strategy. This is what we're doing. This is why you should all stick to it. And what we have done is like completely abandoned that we have almost like government or public health policy by headline, you know, people hearing about the lockdown. And it's I think it's, it's doubling and effective. The first thing is that it comes in a headline. So I was like, Well, why am I hearing about this in the sun? Why haven't someone officially got on the podium and told me, but the second thing is people feel very disregarded. They feel like this is their secondary, you know, they pick up the paper and find out that their house is locked down now. They feel like they're not engaged. They're not part of this process. And it's the countries that have made their citizens part of the process

Will McInnes 24:36

that have done that. Look at Vietnam. Yeah, Vietnam is going to Vietnam one feels is going to be one of those countries that is is the case study. In hindsight. What I'd love to do is is propel from this assessment of how it happened to the amazing point that you made about how you've experienced fellow medics fellow professionals, though who have been brought through the sort of rigour of the scientific school who are also doubting the reality of COVID? As you would see it, what do you make of that? Because we can't sort of explain that away as quite in the same way. It's not, it's not as dismissible, or as forgivable, maybe. Or, like, what, how on earth can fellow medics be unclear about covid?

Dr Dominic Pimenta 25:29

Because they're human. And you see, I mean, it's not even fellow medics, right. You've got seen a senior epidemiol infectious diseases, epidemiologist, professors of evidence based medicine. I mean, I'm not sure what that means. But whatever. But you know, and these are people that are not nothing. And it's hard to know, sometimes if there is an agenda. For some, for some academics, I think they have literally just planted their flag in this in, in in the, in a hill. And that's the hill that choosing to die on. And it's not about anything else other than proving the point. I suppose the problem is that, and I think medics especially, I mean, I know obviously, I've compiled community of medics, just human beings. I remember a great conversation I actually have, which still illustrates this idea to me, right, right. About a week, week, 10 days before we lock down. I was sitting in the office with a colleague of mine. And I said to him, oh, you know, how, you know, do you think your research is, is going to be cancelled? And he's Oh, no, I'm going to go fly off to wherever it was Amsterdam or something, and all my research is ready to go. And it's like, for about COVID. Like, in two weeks time, we're going to be in it or whatever. Like, we're going to be inundated. And he's like, Oh, well, you know, I don't think that's gonna happen, really. And I was like, but look at the numbers like the web, you know, this week. Look at them. Look at somebody right now. Like it's boiling over when we're two weeks behind. He's like, yeah, I've seen all that. And I was like, okay, what's the connector? And then he and then I said to him, so so what do you still think that this is going to be fine? And he's like, Yeah, no, I accept that. It's gonna be bad. But I just think I'm going to still go to reset. And that's it. But why it is that Well, I suppose is a combination of optimism and naivety. I really think that illustrate that, that everybody wanted to not this not be the case. Right? And I still think that's true. And I still people want to not not be in this world.

Will McInnes 27:27

Absolutely. Have you come across the Stockdale paradox? No. So I think he may have ended up as an admiral or something. But he was a fighter pilot for the USA, flying over Vietnam was shot down, taken to a prisoner of war camp and held there for a really long time. And what he famously the phrase that he coined was the the optimists die first. And it was that all the people who thought they would be out at Christmas, which suffer a real kind of blow to their morale, they then say, we'll be out by Easter, they then say, maybe, if so and so becomes president, or if this accord is reached, and bit by bit, they were, they set themselves up to be destroyed. Whereas his his view, which seems, you know, pretty negative, or pessimistic or whatever was, you know, we're not getting out quickly. We, we might as well dig in for the long run. And at least I guess your example is, they were self aware enough to know that they were being hopelessly optimistic. But there is definitely optimism has been tested. I mean, wow, what a year 2020? Like, if there was a year to test anyone's

Dr Dominic Pimenta 28:42

Yeah, well, resilience wise, I think, is a really good point. Because actually, you know, why, you know, you say why on why could medics, you know, not see the science or something. And I think fundamentally, what I've genuinely realised maybe even in the course of this year,

Unknown Speaker 28:59

even this, this

Dr Dominic Pimenta 29:00

idea of cognitive dissonance, that human beings, I actually think that's the normal state for human and actually, I think, in my everyday life, I am so inconsistent, and I think everybody is, and I don't think that people would end up one of the biggest problems is people, you know, these professors is very good example. They stake their, you know, they stake their flag, and that's the hill they want to die on. But we did it in our everyday lives all the time. You know, we say, I don't know, I'm a, I'm a frugal person or I not you know, I'm an angry person, that Bina you tell yourself that this is who you are. And then you just, it's the opposite, you start to behave to justify a Brexit is this great example, once the decisions be made, it's much harder to convince people of despite, you know, complete self immolation of some of the mean. And but I actually fundamentally think we, I think, give ourselves too much credit in a way or maybe put too much pressure on ourselves to be consistent. And individuals when I actually think human beings are just messy, and not at all like that, I couldn't

Will McInnes 30:05

agree more. I mean, the Kahneman Thinking Fast and thinking slow and effect, effectively my takeaway from the book, which I didn't finish, and I don't think lots of people do, but was that there's a, there's a, we think the brain is telling us what to do when actually, the brain is inventing a narrative for what we've just done. And that that, for me was brilliant, because because in business, which is more my domain, some of the people who've proclaimed themselves to be the most rational, in my experience are the most irritatingly irrational. And, and but they're wedded to this identity, like you say they've chosen the hill. And that gets in the way. So the project that you've now started, you got interested in misinformation around COVID. And being the go getter, that you are the person who then finds extra time and resource on top of already a busy life, you've, you've started to do something about it, can you pick up that story and tell us like, where you started? And where you're going? Actually, I

Dr Dominic Pimenta 31:12

think it goes a bit further back. So for a number of years, and this is why, you know, maybe my political hat. So when I first started working, I worked in a really terrible hospital. And I just couldn't work out why somebody in a perfect, you know, health secretary in or civil service, would make all these decisions that were so obviously detrimental, you know, on the ground, like the pay cuts, but also a local hospital close when we was my first year of medicine. And suddenly, RNA was completely flooded, and we couldn't cope. And I said, Well, how did this happen, and every struggle is just what happens, as I but that's, you know, and then and but this is constantly trying to explain that to people who didn't really understand the realities. And this is a concept of medicine of informed consent, right? This is the bedrock. So you cannot say yes to a procedure or whatever it might be even as simple as an injection of x and vaccination. Without understanding the risks and the benefits and, and kind of my role, I think, in my public facing sort of Twitter, whatever it is, for the last five years, has been trying to explain just like the, you know, the fundamentals, like what's going on with NHS? Why does it need more money. This is why you know, your vote is important, because this is what will happen. And in regards to the deficit, and to the NHS, nurses, etc, etc. And what really struck me Actually, especially, you know, over the Brexit time, and over the last couple of years, is how different discourses now, and actually wrote this whole, this whole essay, which nobody read about how this base bit is based. It's basically an update from my point of view of this, but if you read the book called The Shallows was on my shelf and recommended someone, basically, this guy wrote it in 2008, Nick Carr, in 2010. And it was in the New York Times bestseller list. And it's all about how the internet, and even the very basic functions of the internet is a great example of where it talks about hyperlinks, but it also talks about how they distract, and then actually start to rewire your brain. So a lot of people don't know this, but your brain is super plastic, like it can make connections depending on what you do on a day to day basis, like physical connections, and is a phrase in neuroscience called neurons that fire together wire together. So basically, your behaviour actually determines your biology, which is the first point. So the problem is if we start filling our brains with super distracting, you know, attention grabbing constant content. And this was in 2010, when basically the internet there was no social media, really, there wasn't much in the way of people being on Facebook, there's not a lot of video content. But he talks about this great example, that actually, when people invented the internet, they thought that connectivity would be much better for our brains. This is great

experiment, where they showed hyperlinks, right? And you know, the, the basic block of internet 1.0, whatever it was, and they said, here's an article or something hasn't gone reform or something. Here's a pro and here's a anti article. And here's what I wanted, one group just had to read one in the meet the other. And the other group had hyperlinks all the way through both articles, so they could click back and forth. And they hypothesise that this would be in great synergy and they comprehend much better. And actually, the what actually happened was the group that just read one plain article and then read the other one had much better comprehension of the subject than the people had flipped between them. And they actually what they hypothesised The cause was was this concept of macro distraction. So you actually, you know, the idea that you can only hold like five or seven items in your brain at one time. Well, if you're reading a piece of text, and you come along a blue underlined word that you think is a hyperlink, what are the mechanics in your brain that actually tells you that is a hyperlink and then your decision making to click on it or not? Well, you have to see it's blue. See, it's unlocked. You have to understand what it is, you have to then make a decision whether or not you want to pull yourself away from here and go back or come back. And actually all of that micro distraction completely shreds your ability to retain what you were just reading. And now imagine the internet, right? Like when you that video that doesn't go away. And when you scroll down the page, and it takes a long to load. And you know, some pages are so complex now that every time I go on The Daily Mail website, and now I've had to put that in writing that I sometimes do my in my actual laptop overheats. I don't know what it is. There's something running in the background that's so intense anyway. So I've always been about misinformation. And there's loads of evidence that smartphone use causes depression, anxiety, body dysmorphia, suicides, suicide is up massively, especially in young people over the last 10 years. And one of the big drivers people think is this social wired world that we live in. And the caveat to that, and I think nobody really saw this coming is having access to all of the knowledge of humankind at your fingertips has all that meant is people are less informed, because they're overwhelmed. There's like white noise, you can't even stop for five minutes to comprehend anything. Because there's 15 people giving their opinion about it another 15 sharing something else about it. And I just it completely destroyed. Actually, it was interesting, I just watched the social dilemma on Netflix a few months ago. And it really sort of encapsulated this, but it's the same point. And essentially, you cannot have a society or democracy or any of the norms, you know, and then back to informed consent. How can we make informed decisions as a society, when we don't even agree on what reality actually is like when we think we're informed. And that's the irony, it's not that we're uninformed. We're not like, Oh, I don't know pick anything. And that's not that's not what happened. people now have very strong opinions about everything. And they have to, because that is the nature of social media. If you see something, you have to like it, or comment or share it or not. So it forces you to have decisions. And I actually think this is one of my wacky ideas. But great, great to like have a button that just says I don't know about this, I don't, or I have no opinion about it, or I don't care about it. And not just to feed the algorithm, but just to tell people that it's okay to not actually be, you know, completely on top of this subject and have anyway. So, we need we need from Brexit, that this world has really started to verge and people live in their bubbles, and all of the social media algorithms completely embed you in the bubbles. And actually what's really interesting about the COVID world and as I was on a panel actually a few months ago with the World Health, world public health Congress, and on the panel was Carol Cadwallader. And they asked us the same question about misinformation. And she, I mean, she was of the opinion, she's been studying this for years that lots of these networks are now focused on COVID and utilising it in a very deliberate way. And actually, I'm starting to think that these networks have become organic. The algorithm itself, trains you to be outraged. And initially, you might be outraged about a particular subject, whether it's vaccines, or Brexit, or Republican or Democrat, or whatever it might be. And then that sort of funnels, you know, like one of those balls that sort of bounces down and ends up in a pocket, and then you're in this outrage pocket, and you're ready, all your responses already trained to be to be outraged, or whatever. And I think what happened with COVID is COVID came along. And that bubble just got attached to a new source of information. And then you would see people sharing outrage, but about COVID. And then they're in the same bubble, the same group that you are, and then you just gravitate towards them. And then all that's happened is you just sort of migrate different topics, same anger, and the same sort of lack of, you know, shared information and resources. And we have seen this and this is fascinating. So if you there's a study recently looking in America at Google Trends, right, so it's just what people are searching for. And if you saw this is super interesting. So when COVID was announced, you could look on Google and by state depending if you voted Democrat or Republican, in democrat states, they will searching for hand sanitizer, and searches for hand sanitizer republican states was statistically much lower. Now, there is no earthly reason for that, like doesn't make any sense. COVID is not a political issue. Everybody wants to live like there's no, and I actually almost don't think, you know, unless you're extreme bad actor, and you're trying to like sink another country, but at the same time trying to preserve your own country. I don't think there may be some truth to that. But there was almost no human intent why people would want to mess with that. Like, it doesn't really make sense. Other than the algorithms naturally push you in these directions. And it got me thinking like, how, how do we sort of interrupt that? And there's a few things like the first thing I started doing was actually just saying actually, a lot of the you know, these Ivor Cummins characters to do science heritage, they're actually very good at presentation and we sort of named this a long time in medicine because if you people look at you know, the people are very ready to dismiss. homoeopathy is like quacks and natural path. But we have to take a step back as a profession and say, Well, hold on, why are they successful? Because it's, you know, it sure is s**t isn't the fact that doesn't work, it doesn't work. And we all know it doesn't work. And you have horror stories time and time and time again of the man with cancer going to the homoeopath, you know, the man with terminal disease. So why don't these horror stories put people up, and it's because of their presentation, you know, you go and see a homoeopath, they spend 60 minutes with you, you know, you're paying for it, but they spent 60 minutes with you, they talk to you about all your problems, they want to know you in the round, they want to know about your family. And actually, we could learn a lot from that we could learn a lot that actually a lot of medicine, you know, a lot of the ways that we practice in our very hectic modern medical world isn't doesn't suit the patient at all, you know that 50% of patients don't take their medicines 50%. So essentially, if you're sitting there adopting, you either do pretty good job today, probably save 75 to 80%. Now you didn't, half your patients are not even going to take the tablet, so you give to them. So you've done nothing for them. So this idea that you know, the presentation form. So we started doing this thing where we just I just emulator but I basically just went to a video and just talk through it. And actually, I found that cut through in a different way. Because people are so used to like live comments on tweets, the condensed form that can without context is useless. And then I took another step, I've got even angrier because I think I saw something else about think about herd immunity actually, about being a real strategy for the winter. This was in September.

How much of the world’s plants and fungi do we understand? Scratch that - how much of the world’s plants and fungi have we even discovered? And with that understanding, what is changing right now?

In this episode our special guest Dr Ilia Leitch of the world-renowned Royal Botanical Gardens, Kew helps us to explore and begin to understand the fascinating scientific frontiers and discovery underway in the natural world.

Kew - working with 210 contributors in 97 institutions across 42 countries - recently released its ‘State of the World's Plants and Fungi 2020’ report, and my conversation with Dr Leitch calls on some of the broad and fascinating findings in this globally important piece of work.

Listening to Dr Ilia you will find that we are living in a paradox.

While new discoveries are happening every day, with 1,942 species of plants and 1,886 species of fungi scientifically named for the first time in 2019, new insights and everyday applications being uncovered, and only a tiny fraction of the world’s fungi even identified, we are also facing awful, irrecoverable loss, with two in five of plant species threatened with extinction, a world where by the time a new species has been described and named it is often already facing extinction.

Despite that, Dr Leitch is optimistic and you will hear a hope grounded in pragmatism and science in her perspectives as we bounce from discovery and taxonomy to genomics (some really interesting parallels with software here for me), get a sense of the amazing ‘hidden kingdom of fungi’ and gain a better appreciation for the opportunities and challenges of international collaboration in science.

We can't save things if we don't know what's there. So we have to know what's there. And that's why what we do is important.

There’s also a nice link between ‘citizen science’ and some of the discussion with Eliot Higgins on crowdsourcing intelligence in Episode 4.

I hope you enjoy our conversation as much as I did and get a better sense of our scientific understanding of plants, fungi and how they are affected by and adapting to this changing world. It really, really matters.

Links

* Dr Ilia J Leitch, Assistant Head of Comparative Plant and Fungal Biology Department and Senior Research Leader

* State of the World's Plants and Fungi 2020

Credits & Thanks

* Thank you Louise Brown for the introduction 🌟

* Thank you Anna Carlson for questions

* Lee Rosevere for music

Automated transcript

Will McInnes 0:46

So I'm really privileged to have you here with us today. Dr. Elliot Leach. And you are assistant head of comparative plant and fungal biology and a senior research leader at Royal Botanic Gardens. Kew. Is that correct?

Ilia Leitch 1:29

It is quite a mouthful. No, it is correct. It is quite a mouthful. I just think of myself as a very fortunate scientist to be working at Kew. So that's what you know, I have access to the wonderful collections at Kew that enable me to do really exciting well work that I think is exciting. And hopefully important. In the long run,

Will McInnes 1:53

when I was a little boy growing up in London, we went on a couple of school trips to to Kew, some people may not have been that lucky. So for the listener that hasn't come across. Kew Could you just tell us a little bit about either the history the purpose, like where, what what the project and the organisation and institution does today.

Ilia Leitch 2:16

Um, well, it's a has a very long history goes back 200 and more than 260 years. So as founded in 1759, if I'm correct, and really is a started off as, as a royal garden with the best sort of director of being interested in plants and plant diversity, and being able to name and collect things and by understand how they're used. And over the years, I guess Kew has had a long history of continue to collect lots of samples, and a great expertise in being able to correctly name them. So we have accused of amazing collections in the world of some of the largest collections in the world of plant herbarium specimens which reflect which are squashed plants effectively between paper but they provide an essential reference for being able to describe a plant species, a new plant species, as its described, will be made into a herbarium specimen. And the description of of all the attributes and characters, which describe that species and make it distinct from everything else will be captured in that specimen. So that's what in fact, that's what we call the type specimen it Kew because that's the actual individual plant that was used to name a species, we have lots of type specimens, but we have over over seven and a half million of these specimens in one of the buildings at Kew. And then we also have the equivalent for funghi, with over 1.2 5 million specimens of different funghi. All stored in different boxes, and again, their vital source of information for being able to correctly name things and of course, without a name, you are lost, because yes, the essential fundamental ability to communicate with people and to do to discuss things on an equal term. So I guess that those are two of our great collections that Kew and we have now around 300 scientists, thank you for working using those collections, as well as collaborating widely with partnerships across the world, doing biodiversity focused research. I mean, of course, I should also mention we have a public garden, which is the side that most of the people who come to Kew is what they will see. But and that's a wonderful sight as well in the sort of west of London where, you know, I love going out there when I'm not in the lab. It's a wonderful place. And but that's the science which really underpins it's more than a public more than just a pretty garden. It's it's a garden which uses all the plants first Science Research and for understanding, documenting and sort of utilising all the information that we have about plants and funding. Incredible.

Will McInnes 5:11

It brought so much to life, there's the pretty garden. But then there's this formidable body of 300 scientists, you know, and then these these immeasurably unique and important resources that you're leveraging. So that the, the, the archive, effectively the the data set. And so that's really, really useful and interesting. And I

Ilia Leitch 5:36

just had one thing is what's really exciting, particularly in a way is the fact that these collections, many of which are hundreds of you know, over 100 or 200 years old, were originally collected just as dried specimens. But now with the advances in DNA sequencing techniques, we're able to actually extract DNA from these samples. So we can use that for helping advance our understanding of plants and how they're related to each other, and funghi. And so we're using these collections that are being repurposed for new things that we never that when they were originally collected, nobody had any idea that they would be useful for that sort of research because they didn't know about DNA. But now you can get it out that we can get chemicals out of them, we can explore them for new potential drugs. Now, it's a whole new, so they're not dead and dried sort of collections sort of stuck in a dusty cupboard. They are, they are a vital resource for our research. So I just wanted to add that.

Will McInnes 6:34

No, that's wonderful. That's absolutely wonderful. And as a tangent, there's a guy that I follow on Twitter called Seamus blackly, who recently made a loaf of bread from yeast that he harvested from an Egyptian specimen a piece of terracotta or clay or something from from the time and I love that idea. It's like Jurassic Park, isn't it? It's the idea that you can use the things that seem like they're in spaces, the amber and the mosquito in it still contain the source code to so much interesting science. Thank you for bringing that to life for us. And so what's, how did you end up doing this kind of work earlier? People are always interested in the stories that our guests, you know, how we went these parts in life? Have you always been enthusiastic about the natural world? Like what what was the path?

Ilia Leitch 7:30

I've been Yes, I've always, I've always loved the natural world, and the complexity and diversity and the surprises that you never know what you're going to find. I love that sort of unknown and being able to find out for the first time something that nobody else in the world knows, and yet it contribute a vital piece of the puzzle to understanding things that are being studied. So I guess as always, I've always been curious about that. And yes, I've always liked the natural world. And I've particularly like plants. So my work is focused mainly on plants. But I like the fact that I can cue I can work on a whole diversity of plants, you know, we have around 350,000 different species of vascular plants. So those are things like the ferns, gymnosperm, sets, the conifers and cycads. And the flowering plants, the angiosperms, and we have these great collections that we can use. And so whereas many research institutes and universities, for example, undertake plant research, they tend to be focused on models species, as well as crop plants, obviously, because they are vital for our own food security and for our future. But there's so much more diversity out there. And it's that, you know, it's just that what we know from our models, species and our crops, is just the tip of the iceberg for what evolution has generated upon which we can look at and understand and provide new things, you know, that you don't get by these very detailed, deep insights that you get from studying models and crops. But you don't get the breadth of understanding. And really, I guess, as we move into increasing these sort of all these global challenges that we're facing, we need to draw more widely on the diversity that's out there rather than because it well, just because it may bring us new solutions, which are not encompassed by the study, the deep study of model species, not to say they're not important is deep studies, but it's the it's the sort of counter studies of the diversity, which is what I really enjoy.

Will McInnes 9:39

I definitely hear that and picking through the report that we'll talk about in a minute. I was really excited about the examples in the report that you've recently published, which just brought to life that range of possibility and that sense of the unexplored and of new New Frontiers, if I understand correctly, your your personal, your kind of your research is in genomics specifically or like, and tell us a bit about that.

Ilia Leitch 10:14

Um, well, I guess my own particular interest is in an area of genomics, which is focused at the whole genome level, if you think of our, in each of our cells, we have the nucleus, which contains the DNA. And that's the total DNA is what we call the genome. And there's a lot of work that goes on in sequencing, you know, there's been huge advances in sequencing the DNA and understanding how it's expressed and regulated. But what I'm interested in is the total package of DNA, and how that impacts the biology, the ecology and the evolution of the organism. And particularly, I'm interested in what we call genome size, because genome size refers to the total amount of DNA. So you know, in each of our genomes, in each of ourselves, we have a genome, which is, it's made up of about 3000 million or three Giga bases of the letters of the DNA code. So that's what our genome consists of, and in that information necessary for us to find individuals. But that genome size, which is three Giga bases, or 3000 million letters, is really pretty average compared with the diversity of genome sizes that are encountered in plants. So there are some plants which contain 50 times as much DNA in each cell as we do, and some which contain 50, less 50 times less so tiny, little genomes. So you've got this huge diversity of genome sizes. And that variation, does have an impact on how influencing how and where a plant is able to grow and compete, and therefore, how it might be able to respond to in you know, climate change, or habitat destruction, or pollution, for example, all these factors. And that in that size, although it doesn't say anything about the actual sequence inside it, is has this impact. So it's, I would call it that my research is focused on sort of the whole genome level diversity. And I do look at sequence information as well, because that's vital to understand why some things are so big or so small. But anyway, so that's, that's my own particular area.

Will McInnes 12:35

Love it, I suppose I work in, in software, what I was thinking when you were talking about the so there was there's there are there are plants or species that have a very small genomic package or a very small,

Ilia Leitch 12:51

logical genome genome,

Will McInnes 12:55

with small genome, right. So they they have a small genome. And then there are others that have a vast, you know, much more complex or larger genome. Yeah. But that doesn't necessarily manifest in, in the thing that we see in the actual world, it doesn't necessarily mean it's a more complicated plant or tree. No, no, no wonder about the wonder about code. Because, you know, code, there's very efficient code that, you know, people often talk about attenex programmer who, who will just find a very elegant and efficient way to get the job done. And then there's also this idea of technical debt, which is code that was used in the past and has been kind of has built up like, you know, silt over time. And it's still there. And so I wonder, Is it is it either of those or another or something completely different?

Ilia Leitch 13:47

It's more like your second example of technical debt? Is that what you said?

Will McInnes 13:53

That's right, yeah.

Ilia Leitch 13:54

Oh, going back to our own genome, even if we just take that, which is a pretty moderate genome in size. It only about two or 3% of that is actually containing the code for proteins, which is what underpins how we function. So it's a very small proportion, which has that information or the genes as we, you know, people talk about genes, only two to 3% of our DNA codes for genes. And the rest of it, well, some of it is certainly playing a role in influencing which genes are switched on or switched off in different cells, which explains why we're, you know why we're differentiated into hands and feet and skin and whatever, because otherwise we'd all be identical if all the DNA was being expressed in the same way. So some of its doing that, but a lot of the DNA even in our own genome is made up of repetitive DNA sequences. So the same DNA sequence repeated hundreds of thousands of times and these Come often from bits of DNA, which some people have called selfish DNA, they have the ability to make copies of themselves and jump around the genome and insert themselves into other places. So they're sometimes called jumping genes. And people have not really often people have called these types of DNA junk DNA is another term that people may be familiar with, because they don't, we don't necessarily understand what they're doing. And so the genome is full of this sort of DNA that we don't quite know what it's doing. That may be just our own ignorance. Of course, it doesn't mean say it doesn't isn't functional, but it is DNA. That is it's not clearly having a function, although sometimes, interestingly, these dumping genes get what people call domesticated. So they may jump into a useful bits of the, you know, functional bit of protein coding gene, for example, and change the way that is expressed. And that may become useful, because that may enable provides a new sort of novelty in the phenotype of the plant, what it looks like, or animal, whatever, which can selection can then act on. And that can lead to new, you know, something which is better adapted to the environment it's living in. There are many examples of that in plants and animals, and it can affect you know, how the organism is able to survive and compete. So it is the genome of bits of DNA that nobody quite knows what they're doing on. But we don't probably most of I don't know whether it's functional or not. But I think some of it certainly is, I would say, one stance, certainly in the flowering plants, most species are characterised by small genomes. And it suggests that there is a sort of, although there are some which get these enormous obese genomes, you might call them genome sort of genomic obesity, they, they are much rarer than the more common small genomes, suggesting that there is selection against perhaps, things getting really big. So it and in fact, well, I could go on. But we have recently just produced a paper about that how actually, genome size itself determines that the dynamics of these repeat sequences, and with these bigger genomes, their genome, evolution appears to be sort of more sluggish than the sort of more nimble, very dynamic genomes, which is what the small genome so there is something it's also in terms of how a genome is operating, depending on its size, and its ability to change and adapt.

Unknown Speaker 17:43

Hmm,

Will McInnes 17:44

I'm really interested in let's, let's definitely pick up on that. And one of the things on the topic of discovery that I picked out from the report that you've just released, was this sense of of continued discovery. So if I if I read from some of the notes, a small selection of the species name for the first time in 2019, naming valaria Desert, desert ecola was far from straightforward first collected in Angola 160 years ago, it was not encountered again by a botanist until 2009. That is incredible. And took another decade to publish the scientific name and description. This really interests me the next one, the snowdrop galantis, personas from Northwest Turkey, was identified as a new species after a Ukrainian researcher spotted it in a holiday photo. And I love that idea that the discovery sort of happened because someone noticed something they didn't recognise. And then thirdly, Gladiolus Mary AI, is known to, is only known to grow on two mountains in Guinea, the Kew scientist who encountered it in the wild, named after his wife, which is lovely, but just the idea of the uniqueness of this of this species, only two mountains in the world. So tell us a bit about this report. And what else you guys have discovered or on Earth as a community?

Ilia Leitch 19:06

Um, well, the report is, is one, this is a fourth in a series of reports that we've done on the state of the world's plants. We did two on the state of the world's plants, and then we did one on the state of the world's funghi. And then we did another one on this year, as you're referring to on the stage was plants and funghi. And really, it's a synthesis of what is our understanding and knowledge of plants and funghi at the moment, and the threats that are being faced and providing essential sort of baseline data from which people can use to try to find solutions. You know, some of the stories protecting this report are alarming. You know, the threat status, now considered that two in five of all plant species are at risk of extinction. Yes. Which is doubled or Well, it used to be one in five, three ago when we carried out the similar sort of analyses based on the data then so things are getting worse. But as you also see, we're discovering new spaces. Not at the rate at which they're being lost, but we are discovering new spaces. So there's lots out there, people might think that everything in the world has been is known about discovered, but that's just not the case that there's, there are things you never know what you're going to uncover, and, but have it I guess that's where having this sort of taxonomic expertise is, is so vital, because you may come across that gladiola species on a rock. And if you didn't know what you were looking at, you might think it looks like a bit like the Gladiolus side that I know well. But if you don't know what characters to actually look at, so that's where you need that taxonomic expertise, and who knows what that new species might contain, it may contain new chemicals, which have new potential medical, low value, or maybe new potential insecticide, you know, a new chemical for new insecticide and actually a ste one, it could have all sorts of things. So that's why being able to document and see what species are there and recognise the differences. So you know, you've got something new to explore. It's so important.

Will McInnes 21:15

Absolutely. And so what I'm hearing and what I was reading was, was both a story of emergence and a story of of loss is it's once kind of hopeful and at once desperate. So I'd love to I'd love to dig into both of those those themes on the on the Let's start with the last humans, I think often do like to begin with, our biases often take us towards the negative. So let's go there. And that's dramatically awful that we've gone from one in five species at risk of extinction to two in five in three years. That is unbelievably awful to hear. And, and what really made me feel not quite tearful. But getting there was this phrase in the report, often by the time any species has been described and named, it is facing extinction. Like what what a desperate state of affairs? Yeah, what what is it like being part of a community that is busily studying discovering, documenting? whilst you know, the sources start to run low? It must, it must be? What What is that? Like?

Ilia Leitch 22:31

Um, I think, I think we try not to think of it like that, we try to think of it that what we're doing, enables us to provide robust evidence to help protect them. So by knowing what's out there, and undertaking biodiversity surveys, when areas where, for example, mining is going to is being planned, we can perhaps reverse and we are able to reverse political decisions in countries by providing that data that enables us to say, look, if you do this, you will lose X number of species. And why not go to this area? Well, it's not going to be so drastic. So it's sort of we try not to be too negative, I guess. I mean, yes, one could get very depressed if one was feeling thinking that. Well, by the time this is published as a new species, it's going to be extinct. So what's the point? We don't think like that. This? I don't?

Will McInnes 23:28

Okay, well, that's good. I feel already.

Ilia Leitch 23:32

And I'm sure lots of I'm sure every one of you feels like that, because we do it because of what value it brings to our understanding. Not because, oh, if I don't publish it, we'll never know it. And it's already gone extinct. We'd you know, we'd all be very gloomy, then I think. But we're not well, I

Unknown Speaker 23:50

feel I feel better.

Will McInnes 23:53

But I also feel confused. Is it good? Or is it bad?

Ilia Leitch 23:59

We can't say things if we don't know what's there. So we have to know what's there. And that's why what we do is important. And we have to and you know, we're in a good time now that the world is although there's still many people who don't appreciate the importance of this sort of work that we're still we are more people are you know that this is supposed to be the year of biodiversity? Well, of course, it's been an interesting year, for many reasons. And the importance of biodiversity is perhaps been overshadowed by certain things like COVID, just to, you know, obviously that's, you know, overshadowed everything. But the world is waking up to the importance of all these different factors which contribute to the complexity of the life that exists on this planet, in a way that I think it never has done before. And so that provides us with hope, that the more people who can understand because without understanding Of course, you Why bother to protect, you've got to be able to make it relevant to people that they understand what is why it matters, and why they need to make changes why we all need to make changes to the way we live our life more sustainably. So we have to take heart that we things are moving in the right direction. And we, you know, we've got the next at the moment is top of the agenda for many places. And so we've got to keep it keep it up there. So let's remain positive.

Will McInnes 25:36

I'm on board. I like to be I like to be positive. And you've really you've really supported that. And so let's talk about where when new insights are emerging from them, because because I do get a sense from you. And from the report and the work that Kew does that there is this discovery, there is this categorization, there are this this constant flowing theme of, of new, new insights. So so in the report, it was really interesting to understand the kind of shifting geographical location of where we're finding new species. And I read that between the 1990s and 2018, three countries consistently yielded the highest numbers of newly described species of plants, which was Brazil, China and Australia. However, in 2019, Australia was knocked out of the top three by Colombia, and Ecuador. And so that there's this interesting dimension of where we're finding species. And then there's another point in the report that says, well, well hang on a second, it won't actually only be where they are to be found, but also, where there are taxonomists scientific infrastructure security. So noting that in the Democratic Republic of Congo, only seven new species have been found. But that doesn't mean there aren't more to be found, it meant that the the environment both you know, politically and with the bowler meant that, that potentially, that would that was holding things back. So tell it tell us a bit about the geographical aspects of this,

Ilia Leitch 27:15

um, well, certainly being able to work with countries, you know, having countries who, who want to work with us, perhaps I should say, because we don't want to be in, you know, in this new sort of World of recognising not decolonizing, and all this new landscape that we're in, which is really important. And we, I mean, I should say, accuser, that embracing it, we don't want to just go in and tell people what they have, and then come back and take it all obviously, that's not the way that it works. But we have a lot, you know, Kew has a long, long history of bloat of having partnerships, which have gone on for, you know, decades and longer in many cases. And that enables us to, to work with the people locally on the ground to help them to understand their biodiversity. And so, particularly for, for Kew Verizon, we have strong links, particularly in Africa, and Southeast Asia and in Brazil. And, you know, we collaborate with people and work with them to discover new spaces in Colombia, as well as a country is very passionate as a country to learn about and understand and sustainably uses biodiversity. And it reached out to countries like to places like Kew and to other Institute's which have the taxonomic expertise to help work with us to contribute to documenting what diversity there is. So there was a lot of funding, which came in collaboration with with UK Government enable us to go in there and do field work with the scientists in Colombia, to document new species. So a lot of the new species that have been discovered, you know, from countries like that. So that's one of the ways in which you, you get to the countries working with us, which can lead to so the hotspots of new species discovery, whereas as you mentioned in other countries where it's politically unstable, although we know that there's likely to be lots of diversity there. We can't go in because we simply it's not. We can't it's not safe, and it's very difficult for, again, for the scientists there too. It's unsafe for them to go out and do these studies. So that will lead to the lead to this sort of unevenness of where new species are being discovered. I mean, there's also there's a general area, sort of what we call biodiversity hotspots in the world where the some Well, people are trying to understand why there's such concentrations of species richness in certain parts of the world, which not found And others, you know, the cape Flora of South Africa, Southern Africa is particularly rich wonder sort of biodiversity hotspots. And we've been working with scientists there as well. But Colombia looks like you know, second, I think it said now to be the second most biodiverse area in the world, as far as plants are concerned. So that's another area. So you've got this uneven, there's the uneven spread of species diversity is one thing, but there's the uneven focus of where where taxonomic expertise can be used working with the people in the countries to enable us to discover it

Will McInnes 30:39

as well. It will be so interesting to understand more about why certain hotspots might be might be such that just that piques my interest immediately, I want to know more like why, what is the richness. So that's quite exciting

Ilia Leitch 30:56

chance events, geological timescales of things, the underlying geologies of the soil, climatic factors, all sorts of things, I think, conspired to give rise to these. But yes, it's a really interesting area of what promotes species diversification and speciation events effectively. So it comes back to this sort of underlying genomic to some extent, the interaction between the genomics and the environment. And a biotic, as well as biotic factors, plant animal into interactions, of course, also play a vital role in driving the evolution of species richness. So there's all sorts of

Will McInnes 31:35

it's a complex system, really interesting, on continuing on this idea of discovery, where we're discovering was what we were just talking about. And then I love this phrase in the report, which is around citizen science. And because it touches on some of the other guests that we've had on the show and talking about open source intelligence, which is a very different world. But you know, we've had a guest talking about how you can use photos and video footage and other data from areas of conflict, to actually prove or understand the actors in those moments. And it's using a kind of large, semi coordinated group of enthusiasts, professionals, amateurs. And in the report, you talk about demonstrating the value of citizen science to taxonomy. All this is a difficult one, the Latin on this one's going to catch me out. ello, ello, grapher, Cam cam Mahajan, Genesis was only identified from Indonesia after a photo of it was posted on the Facebook group. And this is a new one to me, likens connecting people. That's not a Facebook group I can claim to have visited. But I love this idea that we're with the edges, we're harnessing a kind of greater a greater intelligence that's available to us. So just curious about like the interaction between citizens and scientists? What what's, what's your take on on that opportunity? And is that changing? Is that changing how? How this kind of science happens? Or is it always been that way?

Ilia Leitch 33:19

So there it Yes, I mean, there's a huge wealth of people are just interested in biodiversity, which is great taking pictures, which are leading to these discoveries. And I think there's a great potential there particularly with, you know, the more with the sort of image software recognition, machine learning approaches, which can enable you to, you know, identify things when you with appropriate training through machine learning, but then bringing that to identify to, to find things which you can't identify, and therefore, potentially new species, because we can't be everywhere, you've got pictures coming in, as you say, can lead to scientists who, under who know the differences between species to spot new species. And so there's that, you know, that should even out Indeed, the spread of new species discovery because people are going everywhere yet. You know, taxonomist are not able to do field work everywhere. So it has potential to lead to more that.

Will McInnes 34:14

Excellent. We'll be interesting to see how that how that evolves. I'd love to talk about funghi. Because I'm a big fan of funghi. Just generally, as you mentioned, your first few reports were about plants, then you did a dedicated report on funding and this year's report is about is about both like what it feels like a funghi is kind of like overlooked. Would you Would you agree with that? What's your take?

Ilia Leitch 34:41

I know completely. I think funghi are in an extraordinary Kingdom of organisms of huge diversity much more diverse and plants and animals. Well, I guess maybe not some insect lineages, but certainly, I mean, they estimate now that they're probably maybe as many as As many as 3 million species of funghi, probably something in that region two to 3 million, and yet, we have only described names for 125, or, I think is actually about 130,000 species. So we only have names for 130,000 species of funghi. But they estimate based on using DNA sequencing technologies, that there may be somewhere between two and 3 million species, and some people have even estimated 10 million. So yes, there's a huge diversity out there that we don't know about, that we don't really know about. And most people think fondly perhaps in a very limited way, either as sort of the mushrooms on toast, or the athlete's foot, or the boring disease they've got in their plants, which is causing it to die, you know, they have the either negative or sort of, maybe they like the mushrooms on toast, I don't know. But, you know, our exposure to them is very limited. And also because the fact that really the only time we see funghi, or when we're seeing there's these that you know, when we see mushrooms, for example. And yet that's just a game about the tip of the iceberg, because that's just the tip of the iceberg for a fungal organism, because it has, that's when it's reproducing, but most of the time, it's unseen underneath the ground, permeating through these long hyphy, which are sort of strands, which they used to go through the soil to find nutrients. And they're also but they're everywhere as well. And when these, okay, so they did a study where they were looking at sampling the air from across America, I think, and they did, they look to see what DNA was able to find in it. So they did this what they call environmental DNA sequencing. And they found the signatures of DNA from a huge diversity of funghi. That all is in the air all around us, there are fungal spores, and yet we're completely unaware of it. You know, so there's that there is this, it's it really is a sort of hidden Kingdom in the sense of, we can't see most of what there is, and that that we do see, we know very little about, and yet, what we do know about it, they're vitally important, because they play the vital they provide us with potent medicines. You know, that statens are based on funghi come from funghi they're important for penicillin, of course, which is I don't need to explain why that's so important. Bear G's and bread Of course, we couldn't be very happy without those sorts of things.

Will McInnes 37:36

Big fan of all of these.

Ilia Leitch 37:37

Yes. Yeah, me too. And so they, so they're providing us with with key things based on what we know about funding. So one could think, you know, what else is out there?

Will McInnes 37:50

Yeah. I love that. And, and it sounds so vast. I love the idea, the phrasing that used of this hidden Kingdom, and the the the sort of underestimated role. It's not the same at all, but it makes me think about, it makes me think about bees. It's kind of like it's, yeah, what what's playing a vital role that can be easily overlooked? And as you say, you know, beer, cheese antibotics these are all things that I love. A quick question from a friend of mine, Anna, she, Anna asked, What is the evolutionary need that that created psychoactive compounds in some fungus?

Ilia Leitch 38:32

Well, funghi produce a huge diversity of chemicals, because in order for them to gain their nutrition, they don't take food into them, they extrude enzymes which digest the food externally, and then they sort of absorb it back. So that's a way that they get the nutrition or sort of food. And to do that, obviously, if you're going to rake your food, you know, you're going to take for example, a log and set that you're going to digest and then extract the carbon from that for your own energy, you're actually doing it, lots of other people, lots of other organisms may want to come in and get that to. So you've got to fight everything off. Effectively, they produce a whole battery of different chemicals, which enable them to obtain their nutrition without others sneaking in and getting their fruit, you know, getting their female. And because of that, that's why there's a huge diversity of chemicals. And many of those have, as we've discovered, can have an impact on humans in a way that's completely unrelated to their function in the fungus, but have these interesting effects in humans. So it's not that they evolved in a way that good for us. They evolved for the function of the fungus and we have identified it as it can give rise to these these impacts in humans. And it's the same chemicals, you know, these, these statens, for example, when funded and help us with our cholesterol, they have a function in the fungus, which is vital for survival.

Will McInnes 40:11

And perhaps that that kind of brings us full circle, which is there's a human centric view of the world, which is, why does this do this for me? Yeah. But I think the central to everything that you've been saying is, isn't isn't this complex system remarkable. And if we can understand it better, what Won't we discover more things that might benefit us, but also benefit the, the whole? So there's this sense of, yeah, this sense of, there are so many unknown or unintended benefits, side effects consequences, interconnections that haven't yet been charted. And that's a guess what you guys are. That's the that's what you guys are charting. You're the cartographers of that,

Ilia Leitch 41:00

I guess we're Yeah, we're trying to Yeah, to put together the pieces. I guess, if you understand how things interact, and what the effect of one thing has on something else, you can understand how to maintain it and to ensure it survives. Whereas if you don't know, and it's just a black box, it's very hard to define, you know, to the workout, what is the best way to stop biodiversity loss, for example, what's the best way to help this particular species to be resilient to climate change, you have to go inside that black box to understand what's going on. In fact, you see, one thing I forgot to mention about funghi was that they many funghi play a vital role in helping plants to obtain that plant nutrients through their what they call these mycorrhizal associations of fungal association with the roots of the plant, where the plant provides the carbon from its photosynthesis into the fungus and the fungus, extracts nutrients and water from the soil and gives that plant so without those associations, dance would be much less healthy, you know, their abilities to survive in the environment, that would be less would be less good. And so, you know, understanding why why that association matters. And then understanding how changing in climate or, for example, adding too many fertilisers to the soil, or nitrogen deposition from agricultural practices? How does that impact that interaction between the plant and the fungus? You know, we need to understand that to know what's going to happen as we increasingly pollute the world. But if you don't understand the intricate natures of these relationships, you can't really work out what to do. So that's why I'm saying that you need to have that understanding. Was that your question? lover?

Will McInnes 42:55

Yeah. Steve, was, it was in the answer was griffing. Sorry, if I looked blank, it was because I was fully fully computing as I Oh, this is this is really, really, really profound and interesting. as we as we kind of move to a close in this discussion. I have another question, actually, from Anna, which was, as an individual, what are the most effective actions we can take to help our planet regenerate?

Ilia Leitch 43:25

I think that's such a good question. And I think it's one that we really need to hone in to really help people to understand what to do, I think, thinking about sustainability about what we eat and use, and the resources we that we use all the time, think where they've come from what went into making them is it sustainable, is it it's really about understanding that's how what we do impacts at the environmental level? I think I didn't, I was thinking about the thing with plastic bags. That was something that really gripped people they could see the tragedy of all that plastic in the ocean. And that's made a real difference and we need to find the equivalent in other areas of our life, which are you know, all our lives that unsustainable. We leave huge carbon footprints. Well, for most of us, huge carbon footprints, everything that we do. And being able to know I mean, it's something people really, I'm sure, a sort of crying out for to know what can you do I know that when I go to the supermarket, and I want to buy something, I try as much as I can with the information available to enable one to make sustainable choices, the more sustainable choices, but even those are not good. So I think it's knowing what we can do. And giving people that tool that they can also make sustainable choices, but also I guess, we need to be able to lobby governments and supermarkets, companies whatever, that they also embrace this importance of recognising The need to be sustainable, because only then will we come back to being, you know, I don't know what the numbers I know, it's been said about how many planets we're using, whereas we only have one planet. And we need to get back to living in a way that we only use the resources of one planet. And that's the challenge. But it's a great question. And I think it's something that we acute it would be, we need to guide people better. But I think for more, you know, it needs to come. I guess the other thing to say is that it's we, you know, we can all work at the individual level, which is really important, but the big changes will come from getting the government's to embrace it. So that there's real policy change, and then that policy change will filter through was also have a huge impact. So that's what I would say, I hope that helps either.

Will McInnes 45:54

And so, Dr Ilia, how can people follow your work? Where can we point people to To find out more? I will include the report in the show notes and the email that goes out. But what else? Where else would you point people?

Ilia Leitch 46:09

Well, we have the we have a science area on the Kew website. So there's Kew.org, which has information about all the work that scientists are doing at Kew the projects that we're doing every week, there's a blog, which is written by one of the scientists about a particular aspect of their work, because I work I really talk just about a small amount of the diversity of things that Kew's doing. So you can find out much more about the different projects. And then for those also more interested deeply in the sorts of work that we're publishing, if they're sort of scientists, there's, we have a sort of a science repository for all the publications that are coming out in scientific journals. But those are the main places where you can find out all about us. exciting work, I think is exciting. And

Will McInnes 47:02

I would agree it's been it's been an exciting discussion. I know we've only skimmed the tiniest of surfaces of the work that you do, your team does, but the whole of Kew so thank you so much for your time today. I really, really appreciate it.

Ilia Leitch 47:15

Well, it's been a great pleasure. It's always fun. I like talking about about our work, and it's been you've had some great questions as well. So thank you.

Today our special guest, my colleague and Forbes ‘25 Black Business Leaders To Follow’ Abadesi Osunsade, directs our attention towards an amazingly powerful, personal and precious capacity - our empathy.

‘What are the limits of empathy and compassion, and can we overcome them?’

Aba is VP of Global Community & Belonging at Brandwatch, host of the highly brilliant Techish podcast and CEO of Hustle Crew. Sourced from her hard work and bitter lived experiences having to fight for fairness and equity in the tech community, Aba’s framing question for our discussion gets to the very heart of a whole world of pain we’re experiencing today. It also opens the door to considering perhaps our largest scale opportunity as a species: greater empathy.

In 2020, I can’t think of a more timely and important topic.

When you look at the headlines, when you doom-scroll your social media, perhaps when you walk around your neighborhood or city center, what could the world look like if expanded our individual and collective empathy? Would we need to fight so hard for Black Lives Matter and #metoo? Would the onus be so squarely on those oppressed? Would there be a need for drug policy reform or gender pay gap measures? Would we be treating the planet and its living creatures in the way that we do?

And in the workplace too how can we find the capacity and tools to better empathize? Amongst pandemic, with frontline working in PPE and office jobs now Zoom-meetings-only, with trying to be a good citizen, family member, partner, worker, and stay healthy while the economy judders and everything is disrupted. With a global recalibration happening, a climate crisis burning?

Tune in - I promise you that the breadth of Aba’s knowledge and reading, the clarity of her point of view and the energy of her delivery will command your attention.

Links

* Abadesi on Twitter

* Hustle Crew - a career advancement community for the underrepresented in tech

* Techish podcast with Michael Berhane

Credits

* Lee Rosevere for music

Automated transcriptWill McInnes 00:01Aba Hello. Abadesi Osunsade 00:03Hey, how's it going? Will McInnes 00:05Good. How are you? Abadesi Osunsade 00:06Yeah, I'm really good. Thanks. Looking forward to our convo. Will McInnes 00:10Absolutely. So we've recently started working together. Abadesi Osunsade 00:14Yeah, colleagues Will McInnes 00:16colleagues. So good to say Good to have you on board and to be working together. I'm love your energy and everything you're about. Abadesi Osunsade 00:23Thank you. Yeah, it's also think I'm in like week, nine now or 10. It's going going very quickly. But it's awesome. Will McInnes 00:30And for those that don't yet follow you on Twitter, you're kind of chronicling the journey.Abadesi Osunsade 00:37Even filming offendWill McInnes 00:39me see, me too. So on Twitter, you are, I haven't got your Twitter handle here.Abadesi Osunsade 00:48@abadesi. My first name lastWill McInnes 00:51name. That's like getting the domain name. That's like, you've gotAbadesi Osunsade 00:56I do also have Abadesi.com. So yeah, IWill McInnes 00:59yeah. So @ ABADESI, and I, before you joined brandwatch. But when we were talking about it, I started listening to your amazing Techish podcast. And was just inspired by how you and your co host, Michael, just the energy I was I was doing. At the time, I'd be pedalling away on a bike or an indoor bike, like going up a hill or something. And it was just funny, lively, and caustic moments at times appropriately. So just capturing like, the, the tech news of the day or the week, and there's been, there's been so much isn't there?Abadesi Osunsade 01:49Yeah, there has been too much. I think it's really interesting, like reflecting on tech news, when might you yourself have been a victim of the negative trends that are sort of like playing out in the industry, whether that's, you know, the fact that Michael and I chose to bootstrap partly because we wanted to build a sustainable business, but also because it's black founders, it's so hard to access capital, and then finding out that there's like some closed beta in Silicon Valley, that's just raised 10 million with 2 million of that going straight into the founders pockets. And you're like, wait a closed beta. So how is that proven itself? So yeah, I think as we report on stories, through the lens of our experience and our identity, it can get quite emotional, because there's some really personal moments where you're like, Ah, so I see that there are exceptions to the rules out there.Will McInnes 02:36Big exceptions. And it's been a kind of delight in a weird way, although perhaps the circumstances are different to how we wish they were, but to see Techish rise up, like you're, you've built a community, and that's really obvious in social media. And then to be featured, I think you were featured by Apple on the homepage of their podcasts or something like top business podcasts or something.Abadesi Osunsade 03:06It's amazing. It's incredible. I mean, like all things kind of like a company or a piece of art is like super analogous to all of those things where it starts as an idea in your head. And suddenly, it's something real, that's actually one of the first things I took two jobs to co brandwatch about, because it's just like, Yeah, one day, you have an idea. And then, you know, x months or years later, it's like a thing out in the world. But yeah, like when you use hashtags on Twitter, which I do all the time, I'm not sharing about that, just to see what people are saying, or, and it really resonates with folks who are very interested in tech or participating in tech, but are frustrated with the dominant narratives in tech. You know, they're frustrated with this, like, you know, either like squeaky clean image of like building the future, or this like super like homogenous face of what tech represents people like Mark Zuckerberg, people like to face loss. And it just shows I feel like the trajectory of of tech and how it's grown, that there was an appetite for this perspective, and this voice, and I'm really, really glad that we can deliver it. And it's amazing to also see the number of other like black tech podcasts and other sort of like marginalised and underrepresented groups in tech also stepping out and having a voice because I think we really, really need to if we want things to, you know, be more representative of society in general.Will McInnes 04:20Hundred percent agree. And before we dive into this incredibly interesting question that you've set, and I've written down and I'm absolutely loving the look of it. And before we get into that, I think there's one other lens that the listeners should know, which is, you're also running hustle crew. Yes. Tell us a little bit about that.Abadesi Osunsade 04:43So hustle crew is social enterprise that's been going for over four years now. It was actually started off the back of my own feelings of exclusion in tech. I'd been quite oblivious to double standards around men and women's experience of startups or black and white people's experience of startups until I found myself on their seats. I have like quite a lot of like microaggressions. And just really problematic behaviour that was like impacting my ability to do my job, I was in a commercial role trying to build partnerships expand this app and other regions. And it just kind of came to a head when I quit this job with no next move plan and started to think long and hard about why I had quit and what I wanted to do next. And I felt very strongly that I wanted to do something around increasing representation in the industry, I sort of reflected on the fact that every boss, I'd had didn't look like me, I'm like, What did that mean for, you know, when I was experiencing things that were happening because of how I looked like that was a serious problem. So I got that's how hustle crew started just as a community for the underrepresented in tech to effectively be a network for each other. Because I was like, you know, just because we didn't go to McKinsey, or like Oxbridge, we're kind of losing that fast track into some of the best tech jobs. And, you know, why don't we just, you know, find a way to recreate it, like, let's build this amazing network of mentors who have the connections, and let's give each other support on our applications and our CVS. And, yeah, we just really grew from there. And about, you know, a couple years into the journey, we realised it wasn't really enough for us as individuals, as professionals, to do all of this like work levelling the playing field, giving each other like, you know, help and advice. We also needed to work with the people really creating the cultures, we go into, to make sure that they had done their work of understanding our unique challenges and making their environments supportive of us. And that's sort of been the focus more recently, like in addition to the community actually going in to companies and teaching CTOs and CEOs, about structural oppression, about bias and also about their privilege and how their privilege can be a blocker to things like empathy and making equitable decisions. So it's been quite a rollercoaster of a journey. But I mean, the best thing about it is just seeing folks in the community who wouldn't otherwise have had that opportunity to get in front of a VC or be a product designer at Facebook, get into those roles. And, you know, just keep building that pipeline. And yeah, hopefully making the world a better place. I loveWill McInnes 07:09it. And I'm struck by two things as I listen to you. One is, I've got a picture on a different wall in a different room. And it's just says, Yes, yes, yes. And when I that's what I feel, I feel like so much like, get it done. So much, so much. And you were talking earlier about starting something from nothing like from zero to one you are, you are you are making the changes you want to see in the world. And I massively massively respect that. Thank you. The other thing that strikes me is what a perfect segue into the topic, which is when we were chatting, where, where we got to, and what kind of came forth from you was this question of, what are the limits of empathy and compassion? Yeah. And, and even better for me, like, can we ever overcome?Abadesi Osunsade 08:10Like, the cynical side of me coming through? Like, what? AndWill McInnes 08:16I just love it. I mean, so much material for us to work with there? What are the limits of empathy and compassion? And can we ever overcome them? And that to me, given given where we are in the world, given what's going on? And what a great topic, so how did you wind your way to that topic? I'm a big, I'm a big believer that things don't come from nowhere. And you've already shared with us just now, like some of your lived experience, and some of the projects that you throw your energy into. If we kind of rewind out of that, like, what, what's got you behind? What's got you this energy for that question?Abadesi Osunsade 09:03I think is like so much of my own experience navigating not just tech, but like the professional world in general. And even now as I gain seniority in the industry, and think about what kind of leader I want to be and you know, what kind of person I want to be in a large organisation and what kind of information I want to share what kind of qualities I want to demonstrate that people can, you know, follow them. I want to lead by example, as I'm thinking about all of these things, and I'm also thinking about what I had been hired to do and what I have been, yeah, really, like invested into deliver and a big part of that is helping us as an organisation, I'm speaking about Brad more specifically, but I mean, I do this at hustle crew to helping us as an organisation make more equitable decisions, you know, if the metric is belonging, how do we increase that in our culture across the board, especially in these times where we're transitioning to a remote optimise live and We all have different living conditions and different working conditions and different individual needs. And you start to think about how one of the biggest drivers of success when it comes to being a good leader, increasing sentiments of belonging, creating a more equitable company, as times are changing as human life is adapting one of the biggest indicators of success, there is going to be your level of empathy. How effective Can you be as a human being to empathise with the experience of others, especially when that group of others is an incredibly broad, disparate, diverse range of individuals and non talking age, race, gender, socioeconomic background, geographical location, you know, professional titles, skills, role personality types, communication styles, you name it, it's all in there. How can you empathise with each of those unique people and try if even possible to create policy systems strategies that accommodate all of their needs, in a, you know, equally supportive way? And on top of that, when you inevitably fail, because you're not going to succeed and hitting the right Mark? For all of them? How do you have enough compassion for those who are not satisfied with those who feel like you've let them down? How are you going to have the compassion and the humility to listen to them? take that on board? keep building, keep iterating keep improving? And also, how will you retain enough compassion for yourself because you know, one of the things I've really struggled with this year, just going through just like everybody else in this world pandemic, you know, I was laid off from my other job at the beginning of this year, my side hustle became my full time. So once again, I was out there recruiting, interviewing, doing all those things that you do, whilst also being a black person doing Black Lives Matter. You know, in a mixed race relationship, where my husband can't quite understand all the things I'm going through as a white man. How do you also retain compassion for yourself? Because, you know, I experienced levels of burnout this year. I didn't even know where possible like, I thought I done burnout. I was like, I know it. I'm familiar with that. We're friends were frenemies. But then I reached this new low. So yeah, I just thought bringing empathy and compassion into the mix would be important. Because I think these are things we're all thinking about a lot, whether it's in relation to ourselves, or the communities around us, whether that's our personal ones, or even our professional ones.Will McInnes 12:24Oh, man, there's so many places to go with this. Set it up. You've set it up so well, but it is. It is also dizzying. It's dizzying. And I don't. I don't think that's enough. Like it's not enough to say there's so much it's too much. You know, there's overwhelming, like, when I when I listen to you, there I think about so many of the schisms in society at the moment. So many of the, the tension points, the violence on the streets, the cancelled culture, whatever. Like, I think this thing about empathy, you've traced a bit like a physiotherapist you've traced the source of a lot of pain. Yes, absolutely. To a spot which is the failure on two sides of a coin to, to see to see the other side somehow. And then I think about myself and I think, where do I empathise? And where do I find it hard to empathise? And it strikes me that this is a very personal journey to create more empathy requires big change within many individuals, like how do youAbadesi Osunsade 13:45Yeah, I think about it. I really like the the idea of using like pain as an intersection of like, Where, where we fail to empathise. And I would just, like, add another emotion to that. And I think it's rage. I think there's just as much pain from not being seen and not being heard, as there is anger and rage. And you know, that's where the violence is, we don't act out from a place of pain, we shrink in a place of pain, but where we lash out and act out is from that fiery anger, that rage that comes from, you know, your whole existence being challenged by somebody else. And I think I often start with, like, really kind of the workplace because I feel like that's where I have the most confidence and competence when it comes to understanding when empathy breaks down or isn't engaged appropriately. What happens instead, and what happens instead is that bias wins, right? And there's all this incredible research around bias and how it manifests and I'm not talking, you know, unconscious bias, this like, mysterious thing that's like hidden somewhere in the depths of our brain. I'm talking about real life, ordinary things that are happening all the time and are proven in research, like the fact that a man can negotiate for a pay rise during a Job negotiation and meet very favourable results. And a woman can do the exact same thing and be described as aggressive, assertive, not a team player or even bossy. And, you know, this is something that's been shown in so many case studies and something I myself have even suffered. I remember getting a startup job once, very shortly after one of my best friends who just happens to be white guy. And he basically, like gave me the email template he used to negotiate and I copied it word for word, except I plugged in my numbers. And I immediately had a call from the VP of the startup going, how selfish of you, I thought you cared about our mission, I thought you cared about this. This is so this is a red flag for me. And I mean, I was just like, somewhere on the line of like laughing and crying, because I was just like, what do I take away from this, you know, the fact that my friend could use this exact same email template and get paid? And I've not done the exact same thing I'm being told off. So um, yeah, I think for me, it's just like, let's just start with what we've already seen play out in research, because at least that gives us something tangible to work with. And, and what that research shows us is that by virtue of being who I am, and looking the way I do, I'm navigating the workplace a certain way, and people are projecting things onto me, they're projecting stereotypes about women, maybe you don't see a lot of women CEOs, you don't see a lot of black and agency as I look like. So you immediately start to assume some kind of inferiority about me, just by virtue of the fact you don't see people like me on the cover of magazines, or like ringing the bell on the NASDAQ going public with their company. So immediately, before I even open my mouth, you're already assuming certain things now, whether you're like a stakeholder investor or something, what happens when that happens to someone like me over the course of my lifetime, you know, we see research about performance bias, we make assumptions about people's performance based on how they look, they've done all these crazy studies in the US, there are more CEOs named john, than their CEOs who are women. There are also more CEOs who are over six foot because we just think people who are tall are really good leaders. But if you correlate that against grades or performance, there's a positive correlation between height and achievement. So it's kind of like what are we doing here? So yeah, for me, just starting off with bias and recognising that our brains have to make millions of decisions on any given day, I think the last TED talk, I watched on this, it's something like, by the time we get to lunchtime, you've made 3 million decisions, very few of which are actually conscious and mindful. So, you know, it's, it's not surprising that we, we resort to things like stereotypes to make decisions, but they're really damaging, right? Like, in the US, you know, a cop pulls over someone, and they happen to be a black man. And suddenly, the chances of them dying, like go up. And so I guess what I'm trying to say is, the more we know about types of bias, whether that's bias against women in the workplace bias against parents, bias against black people, bias against poor people, bias against, you know, people with larger bodies, and like the faces we don't tend to see on movies, like all these kinds of bias, beauty bias is real, the more we know about them, the more we can start to challenge our own assumptions about the world and our own assumptions about life. You know, like, there are a lot of people who will say ridiculous things like, Oh, I just don't think women are funny. I don't really like know, any, you know, female stand up comedians, that, you know, that I like, and I'm like, okay, we'll just name five female standard comedians for a start. And then they can't even do that. And I was like, so what is the sample size you're dealing with to make a statement? Like, you don't think women are funny, or like same kind of thing. Like, I remember having this dude, it was like my guy friends. And they were just like, Oh, I didn't like this female directed film ever made such a song dance, big song and dance about it, but he did think it was that good. And I was like, Okay, well, like, here's an argument. This is a film through the lens of the female perspective, and your man and the majority of films you have seen or through the male perspective. So maybe, you know, you can actually enjoy this film as much because you can empathise with the protagonists, you can empathise with the views, like they don't feel realistic to you, because they're not your experiences. How about that? And he was like, Well, if that's the case, how commence films still do so well in the box office. And I was like, well, because when you are the gender that get to design and rule the world, you also get to pick what the main narratives and the main perspectives are. And the reality is as a woman, who spent the majority of my life watching films made by men reading books written by men singing songs, written by men sung by men, I have learned to internalise the male experience as part of my own in a way that men have not learned how to do I challenge my girlfriends, even my husband, how many books have you read by women through the female experience? Like how many albums Have you listened to and sung along to and hummed along to written and sung by women about the female experience, and they will struggle and I was like, and then you wonder why we ended up having a debate about how to appreciate this arch created by women or someone else who's experienced we have just not absorbed in a way that actually really specs it and dignifies it and you know, doesn't like judge it through a lens of like limited experience. I mean, I'm using this analogy of art because I think, again, it translates back to day to day life, right? If you're the manager of a team, and there's someone on your team who has a very different lived experience to you, and they start challenging the way that you communicate the way you bring the team together, the way you organise projects, the way you give feedback, it might be difficult for you to take that on board at first and even more. So if no one else on the team has objected to it. But then you have to go a bit deeper and kind of go Okay, well, like who is this person? What are they about? What's their cultural background? What's their perspective? What's their experience of life, this feedback must be coming from a place because their perspective is shaped by their existence and what they have seen and what they're used to. And instead of me dismissing this, because it's a outlier, or a minority perspective, maybe I should consider the fact that it's a minority perspective, because we don't have as many people like them on the team, but that doesn't devalue it in any way or make it any, any less important. And yeah, so bias, basically, biases, realWill McInnes 21:13biases, definitely rare, and hugely, hugely real. What I'm wondering about is, who, how large groups of people will make the effort that is required here. Because what I see as a white man, in many, on many dimensions privileged, in pretty much every dimension privileged, what I see in my social networks, I'm talking about human social networks, as opposed to digital that in some of the milder cases, there's resistance to embracing this complexity. And that's at the milder end of the spectrum. If we look at things like Brexit, if we look at, you know, in cell or if we look at radical populations of white Angry Men, which there are plenty, yeah. And how on earth will they move from that position to empathise? How on earth will they because what I hear this is just my take why here in the rejection of this human nuance, and less need for subtlety and open arms and much broader range on so many axes? What I hear from these groups is a flat out rejection. Yeah, complex. Like that's not the way it was. Yes, not the way I want it to be. I don't fit into that. This is f*****g b******t. Yeah. And it's right, rage and anger and bias. And, like, how, there's what we can control? Maybe that's where we need to go, because there's what we can influence but, but it's, I worry about, I worry about moving those people.Abadesi Osunsade 23:18Yeah. I think that's a really like, fascinating question. And like, definitely, like worth exploring, I think like the first thing. So I feel like there's two things I often think about when I think about this issue, right? How do you get people where there's just no incentive for them to do anything differently? Like, I've basically laid out this argument like, Hey, this is a system that like really benefits you and like, gives you like, loads of advantage and like, gives you a really easy ride on life, and then makes it really hard for me. And it's like, and your point is, right. So like, I totally hear you on that. And I think I have like, yeah, I have like two things I always think about here like the first thing is that the complexity is a fallacy as far as I'm concerned. That's the first thing I want to start with. I think. I think we like to think it's difficult because we want to feel like the barrier to changing our behaviour is the complexity that's what we want to believe we don't want to believe it's a it's the own shortcomings of our morality or stubbornness or or even our preference for a system that is inherently unjust, unequal, pretty messed up, but favours us that's cool, right? Like no one, no one in the Nazi times wanted to like step up and be like, Hey, no offence guys is actually working out pretty good for me, right? So, you know, that's the first thing I want to say like complexity is a fallacy. And the reason I feel it's so important to say that is because we have this incredible amount of innovation happening everywhere around the world right now. Like whether you're looking at things that Elon Musk is working on, whether you're looking at things happening in space, whether you're going into like the labs of PhD researchers and looking how they're like, changing the expressions of DNA and like all this kind of stuff, you can like, pick the sex of your baby, like whatever you can think of. We can probably do it and in order for us to like even Engage with that idea, we have to engage in the type of complexity, right? Like, we have to start understanding things. We're talking about like nano computers hitting the markets in a few years, like we're talking about autonomous vehicles and like the ethics of like, you know who they should swerve or who they should hit complexities here. And we're all engaging with it, right? Like we're all on tik tok, and what God knows what algorithms machine learning, we're there, we're down for it. So if anything, right, the complexity with which we're already engaging with technology, and social media, and like all these kinds of things, science biology, is already like, far more complex than the idea of me standing up as a human being who just happens to have different skin and genitals to you and saying, Hey, could you treat me? Like, I'm like you like, would that be? Okay? Could you pretend if it's easier that I look like you for a second? And then just talk to me? and behave around me? As if we are one in the same? Can you do that? Yeah, that's all I'm asking. And I think that's far less complex than putting you know, a VR controller in your hand and challenging you to like, solve this level of the video game. So the first thing I wanna say, is that, let's please abandon this idea that it's hard because it's really not. And then the second thing I wanted to say on this is that we have been conditioned through capitalism really, to see things in like a very, like adversarial finite amount of goods, infinite needs, Adam Smith kind of vibes. It's, it's just like, you know, the pie is only so big. And you're telling me that I now have to give you more slices of my pie? Oh, I don't know about that. I don't know about that. I guess what I'm trying to say is we're seeing this through the framework of what we will lose, right. And when I say we, I'm pretending to be a member of the dominant group. And I guess in some cases, I am right, but I'll stick to your example. So let's just say cisgender, straight white man of privileged backgrounds see this through the lens of what they will lose. But what's really unfortunate about that is that we are not seeing it through the lens of what we will gain, right. So sticking with the same group of people, like how liberating would it be, if they could live in a world where they were not judged for their financial status, not judged for the accolades and accomplishments that they've been able to achieve in their career not judged by the square foot of their house, or the litre size of their engine, the fanciness of their bikes, you know, the number of holidays and ski trips and boat trips. They've been on this last year, how beautiful and wonderful and liberating with the world be if they weren't touched by any of those things, what school their kids go to, how few divorces they've had, whatever, instead, they were just judged by maybe nothing, or maybe everything else that isn't those things. How much you make me laugh how much you make me cry, how much you care about me how seen and heard I feel when I'm in your presence, how connected to the true version of you You are and, and, and how full the range of emotions you express and share with me are? Imagine a world like that, or world where it was okay to cry, or world where it was okay to say, you know what may feel really s**t today. I don't think I'm up for playing rugby. I don't think I'm up for coming to the privacy. We're just gonna sit on the sofa and watch James Curtis movies on repeat. And that's okay, a world where you don't need a six pack. You don't need to wear Patagonia, any of that kind of stuff where you can just do you. And that is amazing. And that is great. We're not seeing that part of it.Will McInnes 28:39You are so compelling. And off off off the microphone. I'm I'm laughing and got tears in my eyes. You are so compelling. And I'm just so delighted. I'm bet people absolutely loving listening. There were a couple of like profound moments in that. For me, one of them was you have totally flipped complexity complex versus simple. Yeah. And you've totally helped me see that. The best thing that we do when faced with complexity is to embrace simplicity. And you've totally changed how I think about that. You're right. There's no f*****g complexity there. There's a much more simple alternative, which is just to go. Or I can just accept and I can embrace and I can seek to meet halfway Yeah, rather than have 100,000 different versions of how I think humans can be for example, totally so so that was genuinely and I'm embarrassed if if it reflects poorly on me, but that is profoundly helpful for me and I hope helpful for the people. The other is much more I guess familiar, which is you've pointed out that there's a scarcity or an abundance mindset play here. And we can so we can choose complexity, or we can choose simplicity and we can choose scarcity. Or we can choose an abundance. And in both instances, you have powerfully brought to life. The Case for simplicity and abundance was just beautiful.Abadesi Osunsade 30:25Thanks. So what I'm here for is I'm here for the reason I like to describe in a visual or like as real and experiential way as possible. What could be his because I think it's, it's just a way to illustrate what I ultimately see is the duality of our beliefs and our experience and why the world is like in constant conflict, and will probably always be as long as we exist in this version of reality, I'm happy to try and break through the matrix, if anyone else ever invents that opportunity. But I think there are two camps of people and like, there's a camp of people who believe that we are inherently good, and everyone's inherently good. And if you just like, give everyone a chance, or like multiple chances, they will eventually have that opportunity to show you that we are good, and we want to do good things. And we don't want to screw people over like, we genuinely care about each other. We're not, you know, Hobbes Leviathan, self interested feral creatures. And then those hubs, and everyone was else in that camp, who was just like, No, we are like self interested beings. That's how we are, you know, where we are in the world, look at what we've decimated and destroyed in our quest. And we we need systems and structures to stop the save us from ourselves. And, you know, in a way, like, I often think, like the left, right spectrum of politics is like, quite like a bit oversimplified, but you could kind of make the argument that like, on the more liberal end of the spectrum are people who are just like, you know, hoping for the best expecting the best and creating a system where people with the best intentions can, you know, manifest that with others in mind. And then on the other end of the spectrum, we're like, no, people are inherently selfish and self interested and very individualistic. So let's build a world that accommodates for that because people are nosy people are bad, we cannot let them do their own things, we do not trust them. And in a way, that whole idea of like scarcity, abundance, complexities, simplicity, is again, analogous to that spectrum.Will McInnes 32:29Yeah, that's really interesting. And, and what it was making me think is, I kind of need to get off the fence on that, because as you spoke about both sides there, I could, I could feel bits of belief in me rising up, like, I believe that people are essentially good. And I also believe that people are self interested. Yeah. You know, animals. And, And therein lies lies, I guess, the beauty and the challenge. When we take this forward in practical steps, what opportunities do we have, like, CEOs are more likely to be called? Well, there are more CEOs called john than there are women CEOs. There are there are, you know, if you're over six foot, if you have blond hair, if you have blue eyes, these are all these are all things that more often than not, you know, fortune 500 CEOs. Oh, yeah, also have the fantastic work in professional filarmonica. You know, orchestras. Blind tests have totally changed the membership of professional orchestras around the world. And even to the extent that they had to not only just put up the, the curtain behind which the violinist could perform, but then they realised that the shoes walking across were also a signal some people have people

Abadesi Osunsade 34:01

audition otherwise. stilettos and judged negatively.

Will McInnes 34:05

Exactly, exactly. So. So the lengths that are that can be required to make to make a difference. You know, they've been shown to be successful, but that's also to me, it misses the point of everything you've just said. Yeah, it's it's scaffolding, rather than a better way. How do we find how do we find more empathy within ourselves? Or how do we help these people who think they're going to lose out? Yeah, and or maybe that's not that maybe that's not that's not your job to answer. That's, but certainly, I'm taking the view on this podcast that we are on behalf of society asking ourselves that question, so yeah. What on earth are we gonna do about that?

Abadesi Osunsade 34:56

I think that's like, I mean, that's an endless list of things to do. But I'll kind of share the things that I think about a lot. And like it'll start with the individual, and then go on to like actions individual can take, I think the first thing that all of us need to do as individuals is remember that we have agency and we have power. And I think a lot of the time we can be made to feel powerless, especially the way the news cycle works, the way the media works. You know, you voted in an election in December here in the UK, maybe things didn't go your way and other elections coming up in the US, you know, whichever side of the vote you fall on, it's not going to go someone's way. And so I think we have to remember, truly, we do have power, you know, we live in democracies, we have elected officials to act in our local governments or local constituencies that we can write to who can do things for us. And the most powerful thing of all we have is our capital, we have money. Our system is called capitalism for a reason, where we choose to transfer that capital of the brands we support the company whose we support the charities we support, that is effecting change. So like the first thing I want to remind everyone is like, don't be mindless with how you spend because there is a lot of power in every decision you make, who you bank with, actually can even make some of the biggest changes of all where your pension sits with, you know, those all pooled into huge trillion pound or dollar funds that can either invest in things like poverty reduction, and sustainability, you know, climate change, or they can invest in really messed up things like violence, fossil fuels, exploitative industry. So let's not forget the power that each of us have with our money. And then the second thing is, let's not forget the power that each of us have with our words and actions. What do we choose to say? Or not say, when we're sitting at the power of the dining room table with our friends, and someone says something from a biassed opinion, where you know, there is data to challenge that when it happens in a boardroom in a meeting in an ideation chat, like any sort of thing where you know, that there is more data and research to add more balanced views and more perspective to that conversation. But you you choose not to do that you are failing yourself, and you are failing us as a society. So yeah, I do think it's really important for individuals to do this work. And you know, I heard this the other day, and I just thought was brilliant. I can't remember who said it now. But it was this idea of like, there is no hero that is coming to save you. Oh yeah, it was collected aka for. She's on Instagram as collection at cough also Twitter. She's amazing activist, actor, writer podcaster. And she said, No one is coming to save you. That is the most frustrating thing about human beings. We're watching all these Marvel movies thinking that you know, Captain America is coming. No, You are the hero. We are the hero, you are the protagonist in your story. Okay, so do that work and make the change. So those are the first few things I'll say. And then the next thing I'll say is like, beyond us as an individual and the mindset shifts we're going to make and the attitudes we're going to adopt, you know, what else will we do? And I think the other thing we need to do is just be aware of movements that are happening in the world right now and do our very best to understand them, like be informed about trans rights, be informed about women's rights, be informed about black rights, I don't care if you don't belong to any of those groups of people. You belong to humanity, you belong to society, you belong to a community, we have all agreed on a social contract. And if you don't want to be in it, then go move to a remote island and have fun there or get on Elon Musk's next trip to Mars. But while you are here, and we are all in this together, do the work because that is how you are a good citizen. That's how you are a good person again, like you are the protagonist in your story. You are the hero in this comic strip, no one is going to come and teach you no one is going to come and save you. You have to do that yourself. And the more you understand about this, the less scary and complex and alien it's going to be. If you learn how to make a sourdough starter and locked down, you can learn about the intersectional feminist movement. You could learn about black power you can learn about, you know what it's like to be a disabled person in society today. Yeah, so I think I think that's what I'd say. And then I'd also say

the world is an inherently unjust and unequal world and there is a lot of historical context behind that I was blown away while reading a column natives how lists all about British history my white male British husband actually knew. And there are a lot of people sitting in a place of comfort, resting on a lot of assumptions about their country, their country's history, their country's role in globalisation. colonisation. empires, it's willful ignorance. If you choose to not go deeper, it's willful ignorance if you choose to sit on those assumptions that you have never researched or challenge and argue from them using those as your arsenal in the war of information, right? Your weapons are broken. They're faulty. Go back in and review the stocks. Okay? Like, actually do a little do a little recon, do a little research, see if those facts are right. And because I don't, you know, I don't even actually maybe want you to start looking into movements beyond those of your own identity and culture. If you haven't done the research, you know, about you? Who are you in the world today? So you are white, British, Ron, white American? What is the history of white British men in the world? Over the last hundred years? 200 years? 300 years? 500 years? Tell me facts. Tell me facts about your people. I don't just want those like, rolled out, we invented this. We named that planet blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's like what have you actually done outside your country? Like read about that? There's some ugly stories out there that you may not know you? Why are immigrants coming to your country? Like, what did you do to there's Go Go read about it, go check it out. And so yeah, I just think we need to channel our curiosity to places that will help us understand ourselves better. And once we understand ourselves better, we can start to understand the experiences of others better. But you know, we were saying just before we jumped on, like people always say like, oh, history always repeats itself. Yeah, history always repeats itself because we as human beings to ever learn. Like when we're presented with information that challenges our lived experiences, challenges, our values, we reject it. I mean, there's a tonne of studies that show that you can actually give someone information that challenges their view, like the earth is flat, I believe that is flat, or I don't believe in global warming. And they will believe that more strongly, when presented with evidence to challenge it, okay. So cognitive dissonance is real limitations of our knowledge and awareness is real, knowing all of these things, what will we do to challenge evolution and challenge biology, for the sake of a higher consciousness, a more enlightened experience a more connected global community.

Will McInnes 42:24

I'm,

again, alive with excitement and possibility and, and also stuck. Where I am alive with excitement. And possibility is, it's a bit, I read a book by an Indian CEO who transformed his large organisation, and he divided the employees into three groups. And it was I can't remember the labels he gave them. But it's basically like the people who want change the people who are on the fence, and the people who will resist change. And what he said was give up on the last group, nice, there's nothing you can do for those people. What you need to do is focus on the people who want change, and you may also win over some of those on the fence. Nice. So why I'm so excited is because I'm in this and I'm a huge believer in everything that you're saying. And I'm trying to do my work and with my two boys with them, too. And that is good, because that is the to your point. That's the opportunity we have we can influence ourselves. Help is not on the way. We have agency, we have power, we have capital, and I bloody love that because it's empowering. The bit that where I'm stuck is do we just, it's those that don't want change. And I've been two minds. One is maybe it's just maybe a generation needs to pass but my saddest moments this year. Yeah. I've been have been looking at younger people. Yeah, you know, young, younger militia on the streets in America. And you know, one of our other colleagues wife has written a book about, you know, that the anger of, of predominantly white men online like these are waiting for a generation to pass. It's just I don't think that's going to be I don't think that's going to be enough.

Abadesi Osunsade 44:28

No, I I agree. And I think I think there is an opportunity in terms of information. And this is why I was saying, I understand that there are people who are not interested in the experiences of others, but they should challenge themselves to know their own experience in the world and in society a lot better. I think, in the US in particular, I mean, I saw an incredible comedian on Frankie Boyle's current BBC show, talking about how the US is having an existential crisis because it's its whole identity is about white entitlement which requires As the subjugation and inferiority of black people, when black people now stand up and rise against that, what do you do? As someone who by birthright was guaranteed superiority you rage, right? You Rage Against the Machine. So I think that's why it is really important for especially this demographic of people, however, they describe themselves who feel wronged. Right, the natural order has been wronged in some way, I think it's really important for them to actually start to read some actual books by accredited scientists, not subreddit threads and 4chan forums. Right, I think they should actually like, read about the history of their people, and the history of their country. And because, you know, they're they're intelligent, they like information, they claim, you know, intellectual superiority. Well, I challenged them to use that intellectual superiority to dive deeper and find compelling historical, biological, socio economic reasons for why they deserve to be at the top, I'll listen, I'll listen, but I don't think they're going to find them.

I do think that there are people who are not as stubborn in belief as we think they are. I think, you know, going back to this idea of like abundance versus scarcity, I think, you know, one of the, one of the effects of patriarchy is, you know, this idea that people have to cling on to their gender role as they perceive it to be in society, and their gender role might be a very tough, you know, very tough guy, no weakness, no emotions, no anything. And everything is being bottled up into, you know, a very non nuanced rage, anger, brute force. If given the invitation to expand that. I do think like, you will find there are a lot of people who are who are willing to listen and unwilling to understand, but no one has given them the invitation to or created the space for them to do that. So yeah, I feel like even the most stubborn people who are unwilling to change, maybe just haven't been pitched the change in the right way.

Will McInnes 47:15

I strongly agree with that. I think that wherever we are as as a global society, if that even exists. We are still so early in the foothills of just growing up. Yeah, accept accepting who we are. If you mentioned in many of the many of the things you rattled off earlier that had me that spoke to me directly. You You mentioned rugby, you mentioned six pack you mentioned like and I think about I think about rugby, which is a sport I've played and have a strong affinity to and it's only in recent times that the first gay rugby players come out. Gay rugby referees come out and credit to them. They're there. These people are huge role models, Gareth Thomas, Nigel Davis, but that's like so we're so behind the curve in terms of just, you know, normal percentages in popular. So so I think that, I think that we have, there's always a lag isn't there, I think of a rope. And I think if you put a you put a kind of a whip crack through a rope, and you watch that curve, go through it, and, and through society on many dimensions, in many areas different these Waves of Change are travelling at different speeds and reaching different places and, and there's much work to do. The other thing that came up for me when you were just finishing there was thinking about the documentary, the work, I think it's called which is about therapy for, for prisoners in the American prison system. And basically, the work is a deeply profound documentary I recommend to people, but getting these hard, tough, professional criminals and gang gang members and who've been incarcerated to open up about their experiences and to reveal their vulnerabilities is just so so beautiful and tragic and profound. And I've thanks to my mum, I've often looked at communities of tough men and thought, you know, she always used to say with football hooligans, like I think they will just want to hug the ability to like put your arm around your mate football game ago. Yeah. And then hug is probably like it's it's the glue that binds that group together. But but the the human connection. Yeah, is right, right at the centre of it.

Abadesi Osunsade 49:41

Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, we we forget going back to capitalism, that there are lots of very rich people that profit from our insecurities, our weakness and our loneliness. Just because you're alone doesn't mean you're lonely. Just because you're lonely doesn't mean you're alone. And yet, we are made to feel like we are the only ones and And I think there are a lot of people who are, you know, in the spotlight for the wrong reasons right now, when we think of our global community, whether that's like, all right, whether that's like anything, and you know, again, like not to, like justify hate in any way, but I just think to your point about like how few gay high profile athletes have have stepped out, and how few people basically have challenged the male gender norm, there's still so much work to do in that to basically like, unlock people's attitudes towards themselves. And how can you expect someone to have compassion and empathy for another person when they don't even have compassionate empathy from themselves when they still are acting out a role that they feel the pressure to be? And they perhaps do not even know who they truly are? Right? Like, how would you ever afford someone the licence to be seen and heard when you don't let yourself be seen and heard? So there's so much work to do there? I'm certainly not an expert on it. Like I would there's a lot of really interesting men doing work in this space. But yeah, I think you're totally right, there's like, the minute we can unlock that the acceleration of change will be incredible.

Will McInnes 51:12

Love it. And I love that you're finishing there with a reminder that despite the great challenges, our greatest opportunity is ourselves. And units of one, you know, multiplied up makes makes for a huge shift and bringing it back to empathy for for ourselves and then empathy for others. And these are not again, these are not in opposition. In fact, one is a doorway through to the other. Thank you so much for the conversation today. So yeah,

even more exhilarating, then on you it would where would you stay? Are people here interested to follow you to hear more to keep up today? I know you're Where should Where should we point people and

Abadesi Osunsade 52:01

please definitely check out my podcast to tech edge, especially if you're interested in the tech sector. You can follow me on social media. I'm everywhere just at avid se. And if you'd like to hear more about how you can make your organisation or your community a more equitable and empathetic place to be please check out hustle crew where hustle crew.co and you can read all about our services there.

Will McInnes 52:26

Thank you. You are a legend and I'm really glad you came on the podcast.

Abadesi Osunsade 52:30

Thanks for having me. It was really fun, really fun chatting. I yeah, it's fun to be a philosopher for a bit.

Imagine thousands of people sprinting hard on a real bike at home, yet also congregated in a hyper-colored biome filled with mega-redwood trees and dinosaurs - yes, dinosaurs.

Each rider pedalling like crazy to set a new personal best, unlock a new virtual bike or ‘Everest’ after hours slaving and sweating. Imagine these thousands of humans riding communally, together, but digitally, often thousands of miles apart.

Today our special guest Eric Min, founder and CEO, gives us a compelling insight into the growth and design of Zwift, the ‘massively multiplayer online game’ that blends real physical effort with a virtual world to create an experience that is augmenting and evolving the world of cycling.

With hundreds of thousands of cyclists pouring from their bikes at home into the colorful, addictive biomes of Zwift through both hobby and lockdown, this hybrid healthy game isn’t just for the amateurs: this summer, the world’s peak cycling event, the official Tour de France conducted competitive races, linking racers around the world across their stationary bikes to fight for the Yellow Jersey. An incredible progression in traditional sporting practice, and a brave and serendipitous opportunity in global pandemic.

What we can learn from Zwift is about so much more than just cycling.

If this combination of…

* ‘real’ and digital

* amateur and professional

* addictive and healthy

…isn’t a fascinating part of how the world is changing around us right now, I don’t know what is! We talk about game mechanics, public health, wellbeing and obesity, professional sport, virtual/physical, scaling a community, and what’s tough about the challenges ahead.

And my lively discussion with Eric builds beautifully on the themes and core concepts established in our very first episode ‘Exploring esports’ with the brilliant Angela Natividad, which is required listening and a great companion to follow up with after this deep dive with Eric.

Friends, I do this for the impact (and the really interesting conversations!), so please help me grow Here Right Now by rating the show on Apple Podcasts, sharing with friends you think will enjoy it, and talk to me on Twitter with your feedback :) It all adds.

WM

Links

* Eric Min on Twitter

* How to get started on Zwift with a Smart Trainer - Zwift Insider

* Zwift Stories - Mathew Hayman wins Paris-Roubaix (11 min video)

* Zwift raises $450 million for gamified fitness to cycle past Peloton - VentureBeat

Credits

* Lee Rosevere for music

Automated transcript

Will McInnes  00:02

So I'm incredibly privileged today to have Eric min, the CEO and founder of Zwift here with us. Hi, Eric.

eric min  00:09

I will. Thanks for having me.

Will McInnes  00:11

How are you today?

eric min  00:13

Great. Another rainy day in London.

Will McInnes  00:19

Yes, beautiful weather. So this isn't the first time we've met, I was churning away on the bike, doing the build me up programme in Zwift. And someone flew past me and gave me a thumbs up which people use with full nodes called ride on. And I saw the name pop up. And I was like, Wait a second, I recognise that name. So while I was on the bike pedalling away, sweating into my iPhone, I googled you. And yeah, you'd give me a thumbs up, and it absolutely made my right. And I just wonder, do you? Do you do that? Do you routinely it's either you or a bot? I was basically like they've either created a bot. That's Eric, or is the real

eric min  01:08

guy. It's funny. I saw this on Facebook thread. About the same question. You know, I've gotten from Eric, is this a? Is this an automated script, a bot? Or is it really Eric? And as a discussion thread went on? And people said, Yeah, no, it's really hard because I am on Zwift every day. And as I would do in the real world, out on the road, of course, I'm going to acknowledge someone who I panellist or, you know, say hello. I mean, this is the polite thing to do when you're on the road. And so this is our version of that,

Will McInnes  01:42

I absolutely love it, I was really impressed. And it says something about you and the community you're building. And I really want to get into some of that as well. Just to break it down for the the lay person, the purpose of the podcast is really, I'm fascinated by the future that's right here with us already. And for me, Zwift is a fantastic example of something that feels very futuristic, but it's actually real and happening right now. But break it down for the layperson, like, What is Zwift? How does it work?

eric min  02:14

Right? Well, Zwift is a way to sort of recreate the outdoor activity of cycling, and we have running as well. But what we try to do is, is to do all the things that we love about outdoor cycling, and try to recreate it in a very convenient virtual setting. Um, and, you know, the thesis was that if we can get to like, 80%, of the things that we enjoy about outdoor cycling, it's many things, it's fitness, it's a social, it's the competition, it's a, it's the, you know, being able to explore new places, right, you know, come across random things, or, you know, do something that's routine to you. So, this is, this is what we tried to do, from the very beginning, I think we've, we've stayed to our core, and, you know, try to create this, this sense of community in a, in a virtual world that we are increasingly living in, that we will do something good, right. And it's all about encouraging people to, to, to lead healthy, active lifestyles, by giving them a way to do that very conveniently. Loving and, and I think, you know, that was our mission back six years ago, and it remains to be true. And I think it resonates so powerfully with, with our community, with our staff, with our investors with the media. I mean, I feel like we, you know, we're doing something really powerful for, for society. It's, you know, we live in a world of obesity, we, it's increasingly more challenging for us to go and play sports. It's not safe in many places to to do things outdoors, especially riding a bike. And so they're just it checks so many boxes, that it solved my problem and and I figured that if it would solve my problem, I suspect I can't be the only one who is you know, who had the the appetite and the craving to do more this stuff outdoors, but just can't

Will McInnes  04:28

love it. And so much of that resonates for me, my Zwift story and there are twos with subscribers in this house. My Zwift story starts with the pandemic Actually, I'm a mountain biker. I've never been a roadie. I'm not into you know the skin tight lycra and the pain the pain of the cobbles. But the pandemic began, I decided that I wanted to be cycling indoors. I spent weeks looking for turbo trainers. My friend Andy managed to find one on some niche Italian websites. I set up my gravel bike and it provided me with the conduit to stay healthy to feel good to follow a training programme. Just for the layperson, you're on your laptop, you can use a tablet, it's your the cyclist or the runner. There's there's terrain around you, you know, how do you how do you think about the virtual world that you've created? Like, where did that spring from?

eric min  05:26

You know, there was a product called a torx degiro that I used, I guess, in 2013. And it was it was a, it was a much worse version of Zwift. But it was good enough to convince me that I was there with someone else, you know, with a group of people. And we were racing. And I thought, jeez, I, I've just like, lost myself in this little group of 10 people. Imagine if we can create a beautiful version of that. Imagine if there were more people, and there were more activities for us to take part in. And you can have lots of different communities. So that was really the beginning of like, wow, this could can really work. And I think there were other like virtual cycling projects out there. I don't think there were many commercial projects. So the idea was there for many, many years. This was like before broadband was popular, right people, you know, riding using a modems, instead of broadband, cable broadband. And there was no social media, there was no mobile phones. And so you fast forward, like 2025 years, and all the pieces were there, including MMO. So, so the idea is, like, Look, let's create an MMO. Right. And let's create a this world that can have, you know, nearly infinite number of people. So our maps have to support, you know, there shouldn't be a cap, our map can support hundred thousand people, you know, we can do that. And so we can build a largest cycling community, motivate each other to train, to compete, to stay active and lose weight. And, you know, and of course, then COVID hit. And it just, I think it it, you know, it's something like COVID can really change people's behaviour. Those who had never considered riding indoors had no option. And it was an opportunity for for 10s of thousands of people to like yourself to finally try Zwift. It's not that you hadn't heard about Zwift, you probably heard about it, you know what, no one gets excited about underwriting. And so what COVID did for us is just, you know, a lot of people to experience Zwift and many of them are on Zwift still, many of them will come back as as we head into the winter. And it doesn't take long for people to change behaviour. There's, there's a saying it takes 21 days to change behaviour. Well, I think the pandemic is gonna be around for a bit longer than that. And it is definitely reappraising how people consume fitness.

Will McInnes  08:10

I completely agree. Now, I got particularly excited when I first downloaded and started using Zwift because a scary amount of years earlier, I had been wandering around this virtual world called Second Life, and it was so clunky it was even It was terrible in many ways.

eric min  08:30

Wouldn't be old wouldn't have. Because I'm not. No,

Will McInnes  08:33

no, no, I'm asking you to explain Zwift and then I'm talking about Second Life. But you know that you were 3d characters that you could customise how you looked your avatar. And there was this weird glimpse into the future this weird sense that virtual worlds will be a thing there's something strangely and innately human about doing that. And you mentioned earlier yourself on the the JIRA product that that was a precursor or a snippet of what Zwift could become, you get this sense of the belonging or the human elements of the experience, mean that time can pass and you can enter a flow state and you're actually absorbed in what you're doing. The thing I wondered about with you guys is, you know, this world this word virtual is is is whiffed virtual, it's so inherently physical, what I'm doing and you've layered on community, like, should we think of it as virtual?

09:30

That's a really good question. Because you it's the matrix is probably the better way to describe it. I wouldn't call it a virtuous the matrix. And, you know, when you're when I'm on zero for an hour, I'm on somewhere else. And this is why, when people ask, you know, why don't we have a picture in picture video of an instructor. So Well, that would just break the matrix up here. Mind that you're somewhere else. Now we don't want you to be reminded we want you to be there for that, you know, for that 45 minutes for for an hour. And, you know, the way our society is, just look at my teenage teenagers in my home, they live in this video game world, this is where they socialise. You know, when we were kids, we go and play football or play in the parks. This is where they congregate in video games. And so it is pretty real. It's their playground, it's very different from the playground that we used to have. So yeah, the question is, you know, what's real, what's not real. I mean, it is real.

eric min  10:44

people making real social connections. That's it,

Will McInnes  10:47

they are making real social connections. And it strikes me that, you know, at my heart rate band, because there's a little part of the experience that has a place for my heart rate. So then I'm like, Well, I need to put my heart rate in and then and then, you know, as we'll come on to you guys have just run this incredible Tour de France experience, you know, that's physical, these are professional athletes. I did a you know, I'll tell you a personal story I did a friend of mine, Kelvin said you should try doing a race. And I did his race in Zwift. My goodness, that is the closest I've come to, I don't know, my max Hydra. I don't know what my max heart rate was, when I fell off the bike, I won the category c race that I am. But, but I'm telling you the commitment that I put in, so I'm really interested in the, in the balance of physical and virtual, it's like, it's inherently physical. And yet, and yet it is also I guess, it's a hybrid, but it's a really interesting balance. And I wonder how you guys think about building the experience that you're building, right?

eric min  11:49

We talk about the addiction, right? And, and the addiction and in, in zwift, is, is physical to right? Because the fitness and the endorphins that you get from it gets you addicted the way you would be addicted to outdoor cycling. And then you layer on that all the gamification that is we know is well documented is addictive in the video game well, so when you're trying to use the power of video games, and all of the the game mechanics to keep you coming back for more, then you layer on top of that, the the physical into the fitness that you're getting, and people do get addicted to fitness. I think many of us have experienced that. And so it's it's very powerful. And we anecdotally I hear of, of some members of our community who runs with two or three times a day, that's extreme. I only need about an hour a day, other people need multiple hours a day. But I'm so glad to hear about your efforts. And your your your efforts to take part in a race and because you know, you sounds like you really push yourself. And when you go through that experience, it's it's as real as it gets. It's hard. And it's so satisfying as well. And so accessible, think about it, you did that from the comfort of your home. And this is what we're trying to do with eSports. The notion that you can compete at the highest level, even, you know, even at the highest level, from the comfort of your home, makes this sport that we're trying to institutionalise super accessible, in many ways, extremely affordable. And, and global. There's no other sport and this is why we're so excited to work with the UCI and to deliver the World Championships in December, or someone from their home will get a world championship jersey

Will McInnes  13:56

and metal. It's incredible. And in that takes us nicely on to sport so So, you know the first episode I actually did on this podcast series was with Angela Natividad and we were talking about eSports which is her area of expertise. And she helped me understand that in in video gaming eSports they as the as the discipline has evolved, those guys and girls think of themselves as and behave and are professional athletes and that was really interesting to me. And it challenges your notions and then I see here with you guys and the collaborations that you have I see inverted commas real sport happening in this virtual world with you know, calibration and with rigorous controls to provide the kind of level playing field. How do you see this developing? How do you see this confluence of, of sport and virtual colliding.

eric min  14:52

Um, I think the pandemic being in the backdrop just creates opportunities for that You know, the sport that we're trying to develop with, with the governing governing body. You know, if you look at how we're setting up the World Championships this year in December, there'll be about 200 athletes from all over the world. And they get slots based on how they perform outdoors. And then we'll go through all the national, a major, I think, top 25 National federations, all of the athletes have to be on some sort of drug testing programme, whether through the National Federation, or through the water programme, everyone would be receiving the same piece of hardware smart trainer, where you can't tamper with the calibration, everyone will have to weigh in and measure their height, it has to be captured through video so that we know that it's it's all, you know, accurate. And then there's just no more room apart from traditional doping, which is not our part of our remit, that is something that the the Federation's and the the water body would have to deal with. But it is, you know, that is in terms of controls, it's pretty tight. And I think, you know, at the highest level, you're going to see this, this kind of controls in place to ensure that there's, there's credibility and integrity of the sport. Cheating is Yeah, I mean, cheating is it's just, it's, it's, it's in every aspect of our lives, right. And sport is usually the one that gets highlighted. But it's something that we definitely need to combat to make sure that, you know, people believe in the performance of the athletes. And the other thing I would say about the athletes, these are the exact athletes who are competing, the Tour de France, and the World Championship, they outdoors, they will be competing in, you know, on our platform, at the World Championships, with the best community races in the world, as long as they, you know, meet the criteria of, you know, be part of a drug testing programme. It's incredible.

Will McInnes  17:08

And for those that aren't aware, you know, this comes off the back of a large fundraiser as well, you recently raised 400 and $50 million from a very well known institution. I'm so excited about the scale. Like I love the ambition of what you're about. And, and I and I wonder, when you peak, you know, you seem and you speak in quite visionary terms, when you get super bold, like, how does this look? Three years out five years out? Or perhaps it doesn't matter about the timeline, but but where where do you see us going society with, with all of this?

eric min  17:48

Well, I've, we're seeing it already, people working more from home. Because of the pandemic, that's not going to change, you know, once the pandemic is over, there'll be another, you know, another pandemic, or people will continue to work from home and or have this hybrid situation. So what that does is afford people, I think, the opportunity to move out of the city where they have more space. And when you're when you've got more space, you're going to create carve out space for for fitness. And I think, you know, that combined with the concerns around obesity and mental health, you know, health issues, I would expect, I predict that employers should be paying for a service like Zwift You know, this is, I think, a benefit that every employer should be offering to their, to their staff, because it's great, it's a great engagement tool, just within the company. All those corporate challenges that we you know, used to hear about Well, certainly in the US, you have these corporate challenges that the JP Morgan sponsors and have these running events in Central Park. These could all be virtualized. So it's just a great engagement tool, I think within company and within industries. And I think this could be you know, one of those types of tools that just make sense for an employer to want to offer to every single staff including the hardware, whatever it takes, I think this is a small expense for I think you know, so much upside for building engagement and and loyalty and ultimately that the Oneness that you know we need to consider for staff

Will McInnes  19:40

Yeah, that's an interesting point of view and I totally agree on the on the move to homes with more space on the carving out of fitness at home that I think those and then combined with this, employers taking an interest in wellness that's that's really interesting. What also happens That we see elsewhere in the world with marketplaces, digital connectivity is that the the, the opportunity is opened up to millions, if not billions, more people. And so we see this where there's a levelling of the playing field, and therefore more talent and more creativity can come in. So what I'm really interested in to see with Zwift is we've got the very Pinnacle athletes, right now, in the collaborations that you have, it will be really interesting to see just more talent come into the platform, like, Where Where is the future talent going to come from? Because you're potentially you're potentially increasing the total market size, I guess, of, of competitive cyclists?

eric min  20:50

Yes, I would say that our community is larger than probably all of the licenced cyclists that are out there. And we get away with two children under 16. So we have, you know, thousands, probably easily 20,000 kids under the age of 16, who are, you know, receiving the service for free, encouraged probably by their parents, you know, I worry about my kids riding outdoors. And I think every parent should, unless they live in a, you know, in a place where they've got the safe infrastructure for recycling. So I think he was, you know, you cast a net pretty wide, including kids who are young, you're going to find talent, you're going to find, then the future winners of the Tour de France, because so much of cycling is about pure, you know, natural talent. And if you're born with it, right. And, and, and I think Zwift is just a great way to find find that talent. And we have a programme called lift Academy that we've been running for the last several years, where we work with professional cycling teams, and we run it a tonne competition. And we find those the rough diamonds in the world. And we've been finding some incredible talent, particularly in the southern hemisphere. In a New Zealand, Australia had been hotbeds probably because of the, you know, when we run the programme, it's the height of their season, right. We run it usually in the winter, which is when their peak form. But we found some incredible athletes from Germany from the US from the southern hemisphere. And now you go from being an amateur to a professional on a world tour team. It's super exciting. And, and what we do with that is just tell stories of, of, you know, human interest stories that inspire the rest of us, to one take part in the similar programme, to be part of that journey, and then to follow their stories, right. So, you know, part of what we do is to be a platform where we can tell those stories, and you tell those stories, our community tells us stories, the media tells those stories. And that's, you know, surf is not just about this fitness activity, I think we're much more than that. And that's what sport is, for us sport is this whole infrastructure of, Okay, you've got heroes that, that at the pinnacle of the sport, right at the high end, which then creates the credibility of the platform. And I enjoy watching the best wrestlers compete with one another. And it inspires me and I think inspires other people to want to do the same activity. I use this analogy a lot. Um, you watch the US Open the French Open, or the Wimbledon, and you get inspired, you want to play tennis the next day. And we're trying to create this same sort of analogy with with Zwift, because I think, you know, if you're talking about something that is accessible, and generally speaking, pretty affordable, then, you know, can we can encourage more people to, to, you know, get into Zwift, or something like Zwift so that they can stay active,

Will McInnes  24:08

given how well it's going. You can you've been doing this for four years now. But the the trajectory feels like it's, it's steepening, you know, the conditions environmentally have have accelerated your growth. I guess. I'm interested to know what's hard. You know, you've bitten off a lot here. They're scaling technology, massively multiplayer online games. You've got all of these collaborations happening, like, you look quite calm. But this this is a big job. Like what what's what help us understand what's hard about doing this?

eric min  24:47

Well, there's, you know, it's, it's hard. Actually, we're quite, you know, we're converting customers one out of time. It's hard work, actually. You know, convincing someone to take out their wallet and pay for a service is not easy. You know, and building a product is one thing, you know, selling and supporting and convincing people to continue to pay is just a whole nother spectrum. So there's a lot of work that we have to do. And the big theme of of our latest round of investment is all about investing in the experience. And when I talk about the experience, I am talking about the, the, the platform, right, the actual game that you you, you enjoy, then all the content that we create on top of that, and that could be training, that could be competition, it could be all the different achievements to giving you reasons to keep coming back for more. And that's got to be content the way you think of Netflix and, and other online services or Spotify, you show up because you want to see fresh content. So we need to create that fresh content, a lot of that is created by the community, but we need to create our own as well. And the third thing is hardware. hardware is not something that we've been in, but we have a commitment to, to get into the hardware business, the sole purpose of just streamlining that entend experience, we, you know, for us to scale as a business has to be super easy. I was just thinking about how easy it was for me to order my Tesla I, I didn't speak to a single person looking at their website, but 100 pounds down, and then it should arrive in the next two months. It's It's incredible how easy it is. That is what we need to do with Zwift. And just make it super easy to buy, super easy to use. And just just take away all the friction of the entire experience. And that sounds so easy. But that is super hard to do. It really is I'm working myself in a technology company. And actually Zwift and Brandwatch share an investor in Highland Europe.

Will McInnes  27:04

And it was Sam from Highland who mentioned to me the Mattie Heyman story, which is a story that people should google if they're interested in, in how Zwift helps professional athletes, but that's a story for a different time. I wanted to to share a couple of different anecdotes. So Georgia, my girlfriend, I got her into Zwift, she used to love spin classes in New York City, when she lived. She the gamification on Zwift is so powerful, that she gets super frustrated when she does a ride and she doesn't get stars. So when you do a training ride there for the listener, there are different phases of the ride you warm up, then it starts to ramp up. And then there are different colours denoting the amount of effort that you're putting in. And it's the grey phases the the warm up warm down and in between stages where Georgia seems to get a she seems to miss out on stars. And she is so angry. And this is this to me speaks and we talk about this. This to me speaks to the power of gamification. So there's that's Georgia story. Then Kelvin is a friend of mine who has thrown himself at Zwift. He did an interesting this weekend or Friday, I think for his birthday. He's transformed his fitness and his physique. He's now doing cat category a racing. He's a machine he's a machine. And but he wasn't when he started on that journey. And these are people I know, this is not hype or PR these are these are humans I know. And I just I'm really, I have to give credit to the design thinking that's going on. Because you are nailing some some quite tricky things in human software interaction to get those kinds of results.

eric min  28:55

Yeah, no, um, you know, we, we definitely took some cues from from Strava astronomer was the one who popularised KLM. And you know, when Wentworth started, I remember we built the five kilometre or three mile circuit. And that's all it was. It's just three mile circuit. So we showed up, and we started riding like, this is great, but this is it. That's what I told it. I saw I said, let's let's throw some kale engine. Let's make sure that you can always chase three jerseys whenever you show up. Now, that was the hit three jerseys. There was a KLM, Sprint, and the fastest lap. So you show up. There were no events, nothing organised. And people would just be chasing these three jerseys. And that's simple. gamification was so powerful people just keep coming back because yeah, you can show up and try to take the jersey away from someone else who was wearing it on the island at the time. Right. So How fun is that? It's so simple, but so powerful. And that was really the beginning of like, Okay, what else can we do? How about power ups? About and there was so much pushback from the community, because early on, you have to remember, we had like, you know, diehard enthusiasts, the classic, you know, the classical outdoor cyclists who simply wanted to simulate, and not gamify. And so we had to ease them in, we had this one powerup, they just absolutely hated, because they thought it was anti social, it's called a burrito. If you hit a burrito powerup, then no one could rush you. But in terms of gamifying, the experience, it's fun for competition, right? You hit that, and then you attack, and no one can grab your wheel. So it took us like four years or five years to reintroduce that. And by that time, I think they the community, getting very comfortable with the idea of like, let's have more gamification, but early on, it was like they just wanted a simulator. And that's not what Zwift is. Let's do something you can't do outdoors. Right? Let's go places go to places that don't exist. Right? That is not what a simulator does. So I think we've gotten into we've gotten the community very comfortable with the idea of like, Well, look, there times, we will want to simulate courses like the Tour de France. There are other times we want to create this fictitious beautiful places, that just doesn't exist. It's so unique please, with like what topia,

Will McInnes  31:38

yeah, what type here is a wonderful place and for listeners, it's this kind of lush, jungle, there are dinosaurs occasionally it's volcanoes is,

eric min  31:48

yeah, and have four or five different biomes.

Will McInnes  31:51

So it's like a magical kingdom. And actually, eight times out of 10, I will choose to ride more topia, occasionally, I will choose to ride in New York, because I used to live there and I find it like it genuinely feels like I'm in New York, London actually feels like you're in London, which is really, really credit to the team. It's it's they've done, they've done a brilliant job. And then I guess the other question I had when I was on Zwift recently was are there tensions between or trade offs that you guys have to think about between gamification between realism between health between community? Like, I think the balance has been well achieved so far, but behind the scenes, is it difficult to make those decisions? Or do they do they come together?

eric min  32:39

So early on, we made the decision to go with more of a cartoony theme style, then a photo realism style, the problem with the photo realism style is that, you know, if it starts to look like the real thing, people start to compare it to the real thing, and you can, you can never win. Okay. And the second thing about photo realism is that it is more computer intensive, you need the processing power to create that visually. And so we, you know, we, if we can support more devices, more low end devices will simply have more customers. So we decided to go with a theme that allowed us to, to run our, our game on an iPhone five, you know, and how many people have iPhone five, but we, it turns out there about 10,000 people 10 to 20,000 people who still die from five years worth. So if we, you know, deprecated support for that, then we'd have, you know, we'd have 20,000 less customers. But in any case, I think the point is that we're targeting customers who aren't investing in expensive computer, you know, gaming specific hardware. We're targeting people who have all sorts of devices, apple, particular. And these are not high powered devices. So it was the right decision, and I think continues to be the right decision to to make it not too cartoony. It's not mariokart but it's not photorealism somewhere in between. And I think that just enough to convince you that you're somewhere else.

Will McInnes  34:26

So as we begin to wrap up, I guess I'm interested. You're very committed to the mission that you have right now. And it must be hard to think beyond that. But as someone creating this part of the future, what else inspires you What else do you look around the world and find interesting what what what would you do if you weren't doing this? Where would you start to investigate? Like what what are you curious about in the world?

34:55

Well, I'm I'm at a stage in my career, where I need to do something that has some sort of social impact. And so, you know, this was specifically picked because it checks so many boxes, including, you know, let's do something good for society. And so I think this is a business that, and a brand that will last for decades, I really do with or without me, I think, I think there's a place for Zwift and the kind of services zwift offers, we're in over 200 different countries, it resonates globally. And I think this is still the very beginning of a transformation that we're seeing in the in the fitness space and the wellness space. And, you know, if you look at the fitness industry, it's a pretty big industry. It's one of the the last industries that have yet to be transformed digitally. And so, and of course, the pandemic is accelerating this, this change. I'm not so sure that many people will rush back to the gym. You know, once the pandemic is over, I think by then people will have understood and experienced and reappraise fitness from from the home that you can, you can have, you know, look, it's not a complete replacement, but there's so many other benefits to doing from home. And I think for me, when I ride outdoors, or when I, when I am outdoors, it's because it's a special occasion. I love riding outdoors. But I don't, I don't have to ride out those if I don't want to. I'll do it because it's, it's a, it's a new destination, or I'm doing it with friends or the weather is perfect. So I'm much more selective. And when I do go outside.

Will McInnes  36:45

That's interesting. Thank you. And how can how can listeners follow the Zwift journey? I mean, they will, they will hear much more about Zwift but you you personally, where's a good place for people to follow you?

eric min  36:56

And Well, certainly come to Zwift calm. But there's no shortage of videos on YouTube, created by our community. The community is just incredible source of knowledge. And they they love to share. You can find Zwift, almost on every sort of platform, whether it's Reddit or, or Facebook, Instagram, there's just a, you know, endless amount of content out there. So if insider.com is a community site that has just great, great insight into into, you know, what we do the way Apple insider is for the apple community. That's a great source of content.

Will McInnes  37:45

Wonderful. Well, I massively appreciate your time, Eric, and I appreciate the work that the Zwift team are doing. It's been fantastic for me personally and selfishly, so. Thank you. Great, thanks. Well, take care man.

eric min  37:58

Okay, thank you. Bye bye.

Today our special guest Carrie Bishop shares her unique perspective into how public services and cities are being transformed digitally in her role as Chief Digital Services Officer for the City and County of San Francisco.

San Francsico, the metropolitan jewel of the Bay Area, birthplace of high tech and hippie cultures, and itself right on top of the fault line criss-crossing the globe dividing those with high income and those with no income. And if that wasn’t a poignant enough backdrop for this work, for this progressive agenda, Carrie and her team have been re-designing and upgrading those public services surrounded by wild fires, in a pandemic, as unrelenting structural racism exploded into the Black Lives Matter movement and counter-protests, and with the Presidential election looming…

Whatever the circumstances, day in and day out, our public services underpin so much of the fabric of our lives - schools, streetlights, sewers, permits, parking, policing. Cities do a lot. In San Francisco, the city provides more than 900 different lines of business.

But as you know yourself, around the world, and even in SF, these critical services are often delivered by paper, by PDF and spreadsheet, through processes and systems made for a different time. So how would you think about transforming those for modern, mobile, digitally morphed times? Where would you prioritize? And what should be the guiding principles?

the impact of public health crises, the impact of climate change, the impact of economic inequalities, impact of structural racism, like all of those things are kind of products in part of poor public service design

From our conversation I hope you’ll gain a deeper perspective on the gritty realities of ‘digital transformation’ in public services, since it affects us all. You’ll bounce between an exhilarating aerial view of what can be possible, back down to an unfussy account from the frontline of just how creaky legacy systems that power our world can be and how hard-won the victories are. And you’ll hear an amusing takedown on the shiny ‘smart cities’ agenda too…

Get involved and please rate, share, talk to me on Twitter with your feedback :)

WM

Links

* Carrie Bishop on Twitter

* ‘Digital Services and the Apocalypse’ - by Carrie on Medium

* San Francisco Digital Services

* FutureGov

Credits

* Lee Rosevere for music

Automated transcript

Will McInnes  00:00

Okay, I've hit record. Hello, Carrie.

carrie bishop  00:04

Hello.

Will McInnes  00:06

So I can see you're in sunny California right now.

00:10

I am. Yeah, I'm actually in Napa, California, which is a famous wine growing region.

Will McInnes  00:15

You're in Napa? Yes. Yes. Those already jealous before this, this conversation started and now you just casually dropping in world famous wine country.

00:29

Yeah, it's It is beautiful here for sure.

Will McInnes  00:32

That's wonderful. How long have you been there in Napa?

00:35

Well, actually, literally since March when I already had this house up here, but living in the city. And the idea was, we're just going to rent it out. And then the whole world change setting in San Francisco went into a long period of shelter in place, as we called it locked down, I guess it's called a DK. And at that point, you know, in this been living in San Francisco didn't have the space really or like the means to be able to work from home, I just thought, you know, I have this place in episode, I came up here, and I've been living up here full time. And that person's March, basically, which I feel so fortunate to have this space, because I know so many people who choose to grapple with this completely different life we're living and don't have that kind of privilege. But yeah, it's it's definitely been interesting.

Will McInnes  01:23

That's cool. We'll definitely be getting into that. And I just wanted to say like, thank you so much for joining me today on the podcast, I'm really excited to talk to you about the work that you do. Tell us your story. You know, today you're the Chief Digital Services Officer of the city and county of San Francisco, which is such a cool job title. And I think people would love to know like, what was the path? How did you wind your way to be doing that kind of work as you are today?

01:52

Actually, my kind of first proper job out of university was working for a charity that supported single parents. So I would be on a phone line all day, people would call up and say, you know, I'm on my own. And I've got these kids. And am I entitled to any benefits? Is there anything in any support out there? For me, some people would call up and say I'm thinking of leaving my partner like, what are the implications of that. And so I would kind of talk them through the law and listen to them more often than not. So that was my first job. And that was a very kind of front lining kind of job, I was really getting an insight into people's lives from from all that the full spectrum of of income and background. And then I found this opportunity for this local government graduate programme. Basically, I kind of like, you know, the big consulting firms do these kind of graduate programmes, they hire people in, you know, on mass in a cohort and the first year and then send them off around the journey. And so local government was trying this thing out, and it was still fairly new at that point. It's much more established now. So I applied and started working in local government for the London Borough of Barnet. And I was there for four years, maybe five years did all kinds of stuff. But mostly my focus was on like organisational change within the borough and trying to work with colleagues across the borough to implement big IT systems and kind of modernise across the board. And it was really hard. And really, at that time, like the web, as we know, it just wasn't as much of a thing. And like, I remember, like, anytime you met somebody else who was on Twitter, you immediately followed each other, because you're like, oh, you're on Twitter, too. There was a, there was a new thing. And it was exciting. Like, obviously, you're on Twitter, so he must be like me, because I'm on Twitter. And no one else I know is like, so it was like, you know, Twitter was just kind of like, like minded people, you know, how naive we were. At the time, I was working with Dominic Campbell, who became my business partner, but we were good friends and colleagues at the time that we would stay late and talk about, you know, this new internet thing that was happening and that social media was happening. And we could, I mean, we both saw that it was this huge opportunity for change within the public sector. It wasn't just about, you know, social contact, but also the way people are engaging with their public institutions with democracy was shifting at that time, and people would tweet something about at the Council about, you know, the rubbish left in the back alley or something with a photo. And you know, this was like a customer service channel that councils just have no idea even existed. And so, Domino's spent some time, sort of exposing that wealth to the council and I do remember a boss of mine at the time saying it's just a phase Twitter is like CB radio. It's just geeks chatting to each other, you know, it'll die out. Definitely have used the opportunity to kind of remind him that he said that, so twice, but anyway, long story short, dumb left before I did, he left the council and said up a future Gov. And then I left and I joined Capita consulting for like five months was terrible.

05:10

And when I eventually left and joined domande, future gov and then from there, we just built this company, working with the public sector in the UK and further afield in Australia and parts of Europe, and just trying to bring not just social media, but like modern web technology to the public sector and thinking, you know, like, when, when I was implementing these big, big systems in councils overseas, they're telling social workers like, Oh, no, you have to change the way you do your job to fit this technology, like, no, this field in this database doesn't work with the way you practice social work. So you're gonna have to change the way you practice social work. And I was just like, this is some messed up stuff, you know, like, this doesn't feel like the right way to do technology. And then here, we have this web technology, and it's light. And it's, it does one thing well, and it's kind of API driven. And it's easy, you know, you don't need a three day training session to learn how to use it. It just, it's intuitive. It's designed around users. And in a dot, I think Domino both came from a place of like, what would it be like if public sector technology was as easy to use as the social tools that was the beginning of future Go for it, and then over a period of time, built that company, and then for various reasons, the time just felt right for me to try and fulfil this lifelong dream that I'd always had of moving to America. I remember when I was like, 11 years old. I'm gonna live in America someday. I always carried that with me. And I never knew like, I had no idea like how I was going to do that, or like, what was I going to do when I got there? Like, no idea. But I just had this like, Yeah, and I guess, to explore that. Anyway, for various reasons, the timing to start, right. And so I started to put some feelers out. And through someone who knew someone this job in San Francisco came up, and I was like, you know, they said, should I put your CV in the pile? And I was like, sure, you know, I'm never going to get that job though, right? Like this kind of strange local government geek from London is not going to end up competing with, you know, the Silicon Valley giants who might or presumably all clamouring for this job. Anyway, that's just proof that imposter syndrome is a thing, because here I am. Yeah. And so I've been doing this job for about three and a half years now

Will McInnes  07:29

play so cool. I love the story. Thank you. It's really enjoyable. And lots lots of echoes and hints and little joins, I can see in my own path. It's such a cool role. What How would you describe it to you know, a non technical friend or a lay person? Like, what what is the job about right

07:47

now the job is about making public services easy to access for all San Franciscans. And people don't, I think realise how much cities in particular do like what falls under a city's jurisdiction. But we recently counted actually, and there are like 967 different lines of business that a city does. And it's everything from like, collecting the rubbish to, someone will come to your home and check for asthma risks in your home, or like adopting an animal or applying for a permit to do literally anything. paying your taxes, paying parking permits, like doing all of the kind of streets sort of street care and attention, long term financial planning for an entire region, like just so it's just so much and honestly, like, most of that still can't be done online. Most of that stuff is like a call, if you're lucky, maybe or download a PDF and email it to somebody. And then, of course, there's somebody in the back office who's like, typing what you wrote in that PDF into some kind of creaky old system. And I think people think of San Francisco's as very as a tech forward place, and in many ways it is. But just like every other public sector organisation, certainly in the US, and, and but also across Europe, it technology is woefully bad. You know, it's like, there are many systems that are 20 plus years old, creaky, old Oracle databases that are somehow you know, that so much of the public sector has just run on Excel spreadsheets, like you would be terrified if everybody really knew. So my role is to try and try and modernise all of that, right? So not just take a PDF form, and put it on the internet and make it a web form. But to actually say, well, when someone hits submit on that webform, where's that data going? And like, what databases are going into, and then who's accessing that and what is the workflow that sits behind that to get the thing done and then It's like, incredibly complicated and really like it boils down to like organisational change, and winning arguments about why modernization is like, unnecessary, which Not, not everybody shares that opinion, especially people who've been doing their work in the same way for many years, I don't feel obliged to modernise at this point. So So, so I think at some level, every job becomes kind of stakeholder management essentially, like relationship management, let's put it that way. Up and down the organisation. And so that's, that's what I spend most of my time focused on. But I have a team have a team of about 40, people, designers, engineers, product managers, we, we try and run it as much like a tech company or startup as we can in Agile ways of working, much more kind of flexible approaches, modern technology stack kind of thing. And it sounds like a big team, but actually like Brelade, there's 30,000 employees in the City County of San Francisco, and there's like, 967 lines of business site. relative to that it's quite small.

Will McInnes  11:16

Yeah, I was thinking about scale. And, and thank you for taking it there. Because I did a little bit of research and you know, San Francisco has something like 880,000 citizens, you have the fourth largest output in the USA of GDP, something like 500 and $40 billion, which if a country if it was a country would be, apparently the 21st biggest economy in the world, after Switzerland and just ahead of Taiwan. And so and you mentioned 967 lines of business. This is this is at scale, you know, 880,000 citizens is, is a hell of a lot of users, it's a hell of a lot of stakeholders, it's it's it's a big customer base. So how do you think about the kind of the big rocks or the or the quick wins or whatever, you know, business lingo us like? How do you take such a vast opportunity and challenge and begin to tackle it?

12:14

Yeah, yeah, you're right to say those kind of the big rocks, and then like, the quick wins, or win or whatever, whenever we tend to use those kind of like, what are the huge systemic problems that need solving, and then what are the kind of instant value you can create? I find I spend my time constantly pinging in between those two levels, like, you know, just trying to so one of the big things we're working on right now is permitting and how you get a building permit, for example. And just think permitting is like a huge system of getting permission from the government to do something, it's like, it's huge, and many people involve many different departments involved involved. Of course, like larger organisation departments that speak to each other very much, you know, the usual kind of big organisation problems. But you know, we have to spend our time also thinking about well, we can sit here and noodle on that, like, bring some systems thinking and kind of noodle for years, probably in, but also like, there's a backlog. There's like stuff that needs fixing, immediately, people are sending things to each other by email, like we can solve that, like, those are the kinds of things so we spend our time sort of thinking like, what are the sort of incremental steps that we can take that start to iterate our way toward this kind of this more systemic thing. And I think somewhere in between that, we spend time thinking about principles and standards. And so that that's the sort of anchor by which we can kind of it's almost like the making lots of hand gestures, which podcast listeners that like, you know, there's a sort of, there's like a pivot point, I suppose. And those are the standards and principles by which we design systems and services. And so we try to hang things off that so to say, you know, people ought to be able to do this transaction online from beginning to end, it ought to be easy to find, it ought to be accessible to all San Franciscans, not, you know, it's in particular, accessible for people with disabilities. But beyond that, the economically accessible, easy to use, intuitive, etc. And so like that being said, What is the incremental win that we can make here? And then like, how might we design a bigger system approach to this, still using those principles? But it is a kind of, it can be dizzying sometimes to sort of bounce between those two levels at scale.

Will McInnes  14:41

Yeah, it sounds dizzying. But I really like how you described it. Could you give us some examples of zooming out the biggest opportunities over time they might seem from your three and a half years working hard at this, they might seem in some ways less achievable than they did before you started because I know myself one I get into something like that, you know, you start to understand the problem better and better. And it seems bigger and bigger. But But when you zoom out, like what, what big changes can happen in the delivery of public services over time?

15:15

That's a huge question, I think,

15:20

to zoom right out, I think there is an opportunity to think completely differently about how we provide public services, which is more than just, I said, just as if it's an easy task, but it's more than kind of improving the technology and making it so you can access these services. It's about rethinking the services themselves and how they're designed, right. And so that's where the huge opportunities lie. But I don't think many public sector organisations are in a place where they can think about that, especially you're not in 2020, when there are so many kind of immediate problems. But I think when we take several steps back, we see how some of the ways that we've designed our systems for living have contributed to the things that we're experiencing this year. And we'll do from it for many more both, you know, the the impact of public health crises, the impact of climate change, the impact of economic inequalities, impact of structural racism, like all of those things are kind of products in part of poor public service design, if you want to put it that way of poor public policy, and so like to zoom way out, like, just, you know, at some level that becomes overwhelming, like, I don't know, how I from my lonely vantage point, can can sort of even start to think about addressing that other than, you know, again, to like to focus on the immediate needs that are in front of us, and how can we kind of think about it designing things in ways that adjust and in ways that are equitable and fair for for all people and kind of result in sort of equitable outcomes, both, you know, for the planet for individuals for, you know, groups of people. So, so, I mean, I just think there's a huge opportunity to think about public services. And from that angle, I think, you know, there are certainly people in the UK who I know who, you know, featured, have included who are thinking about things in from that perspective, and it's so great to see that thinking happening. But there's also this kind of growing gap between the public institutions that have the headspace in their creativity to think in those ways, and then the public institutions that just, you know, they're still trying to deal with a 20 year old Oracle database. So how are you going to talk to them about the impact of that on climate change? Like, it's just if there's a disconnect there, so. But I do think that those those huge systemic things are where public service design needs to start to move toward?

Will McInnes  18:02

Wow, that was, there was a moment there, where I suddenly felt we were at a different elevation, and it was really, really exciting. And I get the sense of sleeves rolled up. Lots and lots of people working really hard on the front line, and you guys included, and then there is sumed, out at that higher elevation. This kind of goosebumps moment of like, what could we do? If, if we could do it? Like if we had the magic wand or the everlasting? I don't know, but pause button stop the world or endless resources. But but there was a moment when you were describing how public services, in part have contributed to the most profound problems of our time that I saw a really, yeah, really exciting connection there. That's, that's fascinating. How often are you able to connect to that higher purpose given that, you know, there's lots to do?

19:01

Yeah, it definitely comes up. And I think San Francisco is especially concerned about equity within different groups of society. And so there, there are often opportunities around addressing structural inequalities that come up through our work. So for example, cannabis is legal in California, and actually, many additional parts of the US are starting to legalise cannabis, although it's still not legal at a federal level. So. So what that means is if you're running a business, a cannabis business in California perfectly legitimately within the state, you have to be very careful about how you report your earnings for tax purposes because federal federal tax is applied. And so there's this kind of real tension there. So there's some really interesting dynamics going on in the US around cannabis in particular and it's kind of legality or status. So, as cannabis became legalised, here in California, San Francisco, you know, decided to, to think differently about how we permit big cannabis businesses, because what we started to see, and this is the thing, this is the curious thing about San Francisco, as well as that. It is the home of so much innovation, like so many of these like, amazingly awesome, cool startups are just like thinking totally differently about the world and bringing this amazing technology. But they will use San Francisco as their testbed, you know, because it's their backyard, essentially. So they're like, we've got this car, we think it drives itself, we'll just go out on the street right here and test it. And many times, that's done without due regard for the impact of that on the residents of San Francisco, the people who who live here and their livelihoods, their neighbourhoods are all here and you that kind of essentially, like this extended pool of guinea pigs, oftentimes for the for tech companies. And so we're always balancing that. And I think with cannabis, it was something where we really, the city really thought about that and realised like, you know, the Uber of cannabis is it's just a it's just a matter of time before the Uber of cannabis, cannabis kind of rolls into town. And basically, if history sort of these businesses that have actually been established in San Francisco for a long time, small businesses that have been kind of operating actually as like quite well functioning businesses that just happen to have been illegal, but now that cannabis has been legalised? How do we support those businesses to kind of be at the front of the queue? For permitting, for licencing to be able to operate as cannabis businesses? And how do we kind of create a programme for those businesses to help them function and kind of make that transition from an illegal, like a profitable but illegal business into a profitable and legal business? And how do we strike that balance of like not overburdening with regulation. But you know, being supportive. And so there are sort of, there are a lot of steps taken to to help those businesses get to the front of the key. So that's an example where, you know, working as we, as we make the cannabis permitting process digital, we're thinking about, you know, our equity applicants or applicants who who are at the front of the queue, and how we help them get permits first, before then opening the doors to those other players that kind of have more capital behind them. So we do get those opportunities as they come up. And with COVID, especially as well, right now, small businesses in the city are really suffering as they are globally. And so we've been helping our Office of Economic Development, give out grants and sort of small business loans to try and preserve some of the independent businesses in the city before you know, this is release takes even more of a toll on them.

Will McInnes  22:49

It's been quite a year. And I want to come on to that in a second. Because the work that you and your team have been doing has been, you've been pointing it very directly to try and help the people of San Francisco as they go through this absolutely insane year that we're having. Have you had experiences walking around the city or talking to people? Or are there moments of satisfaction that have come along the way where you've where you've actually seen the service improvement in the hands of a real human? And perhaps, you know, not even in a contrived way, but actually people genuinely just benefiting from things? Or is it? Or does this work mean that you tend to be still somewhat removed from from the people as they benefit?

23:37

I definitely seen some, especially in the last few months, and some evidence of our impact which fit which is incredibly rewarding, actually, because you don't always get that get to see it firsthand. But there's a few things like permits for restaurants to open outdoor dining, for example. And like, again, it taking over sidewalks pavements, and kind of parking zones as restaurant space. And we had to very hastily work with other departments in the city to kind of work out how was the minimum viable, permitting that we need to do here, you know, and how do we help these restaurants actually just get out there and start serving people outdoors so they can continue to operate. And so walking around the city and seeing these kind of little stations that have been created and little structures stuffed into parents, sidewalks and parking lanes and stuff, and like seeing people outside eating and thinking like, because of the work we did, and because we pushed for this, like very light touch permit approach. Those restaurants have been able to keep going those those patrons have been able to keep, you know, spending their money with those businesses. People can actually enjoy like a social moment in the city outdoors while the weather holds and so that's been really rewarding. And the other thing we did was we put up a registration and scheduling process for booking and COVID test and the city has like a bunch of Sort of COVID testing sites. And so just seeing people saying like, wow, that was way easier than I thought it would be to get attacked. I mean, a lot of the rewarding work as people going, that was much easier than I thought it would be, which is kind of like, I guess it's like a backhanded compliment, like I expected it, but actually, okay, I'll take that, you know, I'll take that,

Will McInnes  25:22

I think you should take that I, my, my biggest moments of delight are often those, it's where you, you have a sense of doom, that task that you need to complete and, and it turns into, it turns into a less painful, more delightful little moment, those, those for me are sometimes the sweetest as assist as a citizen, or as a customer. I'm like, it wasn't s**t, you know? That's great. I'm cool with that. It's 2020. In the medium post that you wrote, and I'll share in the show notes, we've had COVID Black Lives Matter. wildfires. At one point, the worst air quality in the world you mentioned was was San Francisco, California, you and your list of achievements as a team and as a function as a city, supporting the business community with grants and permits, helping them you know, get reimbursed for paying staff for extra sick time, you talked about getting your business operating on the sidewalk, small grants permitting for construction, supporting the city staff, you build tools to help the city's 30,000 employees stay healthy, the tests that you just mentioned, you made it easier to donate to the city. Like that's a lot. And I guess my question is, how have you sustained yourselves? In that, as a team, you can't do everything? It's a big job. But how have you in your team? coped?

26:53

Yeah, it's been tough at this, it's definitely taken its toll on on the team and us in different ways at different times. I think, initially, when the cut the shelter in place order was given and everything sort of immediately went into lockdown. There was just so much for us to do, and the not least of which was creating just like very easy to understand web content, which is, you know, is much harder than it sounds. And, and to be able to, you know, our standards are about writing that in fifth grade reading level, which is, you know, so, so easy that a child can read it. And interestingly, some of the reason for that well, partly, it makes it much easier to then translate into other languages. And there are many other languages spoken in San Francisco, especially Chinese, Spanish and Filipino. So that so translating our content into other languages as sort of feature of how we think about our work. But, you know, just trying to have all these like, incredibly complicated health, health information and things coming down. And the guidance was all jumbled. And no one really knew what was true and what wasn't anyway, and just trying to make sense of all of that, and kind of get all of that out there and easy to understand ways. That was really the bulk of our work in the first few days and weeks. And it continues to be our work. But we're also building services now as well. And I mean, I think most of us on our team, were just running on adrenaline at that point, like, you know, our days were like, 16 hour days, we were kind of just it was, you know, the flow of information into the team was just non stop. And we had to really, you know, our communication had to just get super real time super focused. And like, just, I think, I think most of us on the team were just like, yeah, just totally running on pure adrenaline. You know, there comes a point, and I think, I think all of us, right, everybody was thinking, God, I don't know how I'm gonna manage this for three weeks or, and then we realise this is looking for like three months. And now now we're in, you know, whatever we are like month six, thinking, could we be thinking about three years? And this like is, is that really what we might be facing? So, you know, we've just had to pace ourselves throughout, I think and just try and you know, ultimately be very kind and understanding of each other and lots of like, taking the time to revisit our achievements and like, kind of look, look at what we look back as well as forward I guess, to mark how, what we've managed to do, and try to share that success as much as possible.

Will McInnes  29:34

You've just inspired me to kind of look back exercise with my team. Thank you take an unintended benefit of this discussion.

29:43

And I think that the other thing is that like the successes kind of start to wear off like I was looking back at the last but our last team check in last week, actually, I was thinking I had just written that blog post about all the things that we had done and then at the T tech note, we were doing their product updates, it can usual stuff like what's happening this week. And oh, you know, like, this team is just launching a new form for a new type of permit. And then this team is like, you know, just rolled out a new feature on something else. And this team has managed to, like, fix a technical issue there. And any one of those things would have been a major, like celebration moment, pre COVID, like, we would have just been like, amazed that like, wow, we've got, you know, we've done a whole permit, and it's now it's online, it's amazing. And this was just like, one of three things that I was reading off, and that that was just like a part of a product update. And I was just thinking, like, the scale and the kind of expectation of what we can achieve is also completely changed. And, but we're doing things that would have been a huge deal six months ago, now. Now we're just like, casually chatting that point.

Will McInnes  30:52

That's wonderful. And when you think about measuring success, or the business case, for this, the the achievements that are yielded through this hard work, what ways do you break that down? Not not necessarily in reporting up through the organisation, but just in quantifying the benefit delivered or created or unlocked? Like how do you guys, because I'm imagining, if I'm listening to this, I'm hearing that San Francisco is a big place. I know, it's cool and dreamy. It's interesting now that I'm thinking about the challenge of taking antiquated systems and processes and modernising them. I guess there's a final piece, which is about what is Yeah, what does that unlock what benefits accrue?

31:40

It's, it's really interesting, the context here in the US, San Francisco, is very different than it is in the UK, around digital government. And in the UK, there's this big strong movement of digital government, I would say, for most councils, you can do most things online, it may not be the most delightful experience, it might like be maddening. And there might be like, really insane password requirements or whatever, but, but you sort of kind of can write. And the US is it's not, that isn't the case. And so. So there's a difference there. And there's also a difference in I think a lot of what drove that strong movement of digital government in the UK was around financial savings. So like business cases, and you know, I remember, you know, with future govern with other endeavours, like, you couldn't really walk into a meeting without being able to say, like, financially like, this is what we will save you, if you do this thing. In here, the context is different. I mean, I think we're heading into a moment of financial crunch here, which I think will be quite revealing in San Francisco. But to this point, San Francisco has been a relatively wealthy city. And what's, so that was very surprising when I first got here, because nobody was asking me for a business case. But what's interesting is, what they what's valued much more here is, is that equity stuff this much more valued is like, how many more San Franciscans? Does this help? Like? How, how much more access are we giving by making this digital? You know, how are we helping San Francisco's by by not requiring them to show up in person during the nine to five working day, you know, if they're, if they're having to take time off work to come and access our services, then then that's like, we're creating it in equitable service, thereby making it digital, we're creating a more equitable way doesn't necessarily mean that we get rid of our in person services, or that we, you know, kind of make all these cuts, right? It's not necessarily about that it's more about more, right? How do we open up this so that even more people can access it? So I think those are the those are the ways that we quantify this is like, you know, we're looking at, you know, we look at our traffic and our numbers and all that kind of stuff. But we use that to tell a story around how many more people are able to access this, or specific groups, right, this group has previously excluded and is now because we've translated the service or because we've, we've opened it up in some way they're now able to access it. Smoke. Yeah, it's awesome. And it's a very different lens, because I have definitely had been brainwashed by this kind of like public sector efficiency kind of mantra, which, you know, I think has to get too political for a sec, but I think it has really, we've sacrificed a lot of the soul of our public services in the UK because we've just been so focused on this kind of technocratic approach to public services. And it's all been a that the primary and the only driver has been financial savings. It hasn't been equity. It hasn't been you know, different business models are different, you know, kindness to the planet or anything like that. It's just been, you know, how can we gouge money out of the public sector them You know, I think we were told, well, if we if we take money out of these inefficient services, we can use it to provide more better public services and like that it's just proven to be a lie as well. So I'm kind of like, why did we do that? Like, why why were we so obsessed with efficiency? And, and not? It could have been obsessed with equity. Right?

Will McInnes  35:21

So yeah, that's really interesting to me, I've not, I've not thought about public services in the context of equity in the way that I am from this conversation. It's really a fundamentally different Northstar to be to be heading for. And that's, that's incredibly interesting. I'll be noodling on that and for some time, I imagine. And so when we zoomed out, and you You gave me that, that elevated, kind of breathtaking moment of what could be possible. If you if we go back to like Dreamworld and zoom out, and there are lots of resources and lots of time, and the full promise of this transformation is enacted. What could the benefits be there? Because you've touched on being kinder to the planet, you've touched on being more equitable to people, we've talked about the business case, and the cost savings? Like, what is the promise of all of this? If it's done really, really well? Where can we get to?

36:26

I don't know if I ever felt confident making future predictions, but I definitely don't right now feel confident they keep anything about the future. But if I were to throw caution to the wind, you know, I think especially in our Well, in our cities, for sure, but even in a suburban areas, I think the impact of inequality. And poverty is just playing out in ways that are, like socially unhelpful, and I think so many of the things that we're seeing, socially and economically are driven by like this, this inequality, and you know, I think, even even honestly, the kind of, sort of working from home or like this kind of new world that we're living in, you know, there's, there's, there's a privilege and being able to kind of retreat to your suburban home. And you know, that those who are able to do that, kind of in this in this one position, and we see this inequity where there's other people who just don't, they don't have that option. And, and so I think it's changing the fabric of our cities, as we speak, we don't really know what that's gonna look like and our society, right, we don't know what it's gonna look like when working back and change. But by, I feel like if we were really intentional about this, and we designed the, the systems more equitably. If we addressed housing inequality, if we address poverty, if we, you know, address racism in our public services, then we might be in a place where cities didn't feel like such extreme places of extreme, they felt much more, you know, like the quality of quality of life would go up for everybody, not just the few people who can afford it. And I do see that the sense of inequality is what drives so much of the kind of hate and aggression in our kind of narratives and our social media presence. And I think that a lot of that's driven out of this sense of like awfulness. And I think some of that comes out inequality. So, I do feel like we might, if we realised this, we might see a more kind of even spread, I think, which might make cities more livable, might make suburbs feel like viable options for more people.

39:00

Yeah, and

39:02

that, like, it's so vast to think about that right? Like, kind of overwhelming myself, just as I'm even talking about it.

Will McInnes  39:12

I totally hear you. But thank you for for trying, going. What's the next frontier like prep? In practical terms? Once this phase of work, whatever it is, this is, is this the first wave of the digitization of public services? Or is a we in the second wave or what? And if there's a new frontier, is it obvious what it is? Or is this all just a flow and an iterative adventure that you can't really stick a helpful label on? Like, how would you How would you break down or describe what might be

39:51

next? Yeah, I it's an interesting question. I think with this is like if this is this way, or is this kind of iterations And or is it just one big rupee blob? Like sometimes it feels like you're in the midst of a blob, but I think there are there are kind of some very real very down to earth, you know, just to kind of bring it bring it right back to like brass tacks, hey, like, there are still like Excel spreadsheets powering government right now. And so I do feel like until we are addressing some of that, like until we are clearing out some of that technical debt that has like laid on the public sector, we really aren't in a place where we can talk about redesigning things, you know, fundamental levels, because we don't, we just don't even have the tools to be able to do that right now. Just simple things like breaking down silos between departments so that two departments can collaborate on providing a better service. But we can't do that right now. Because those two departments have to separate spreadsheets. And so like, just to get really real. I think there's there is definitely a hump, right. There's like a hump of innovation that needs innovation at this point. It's just like, kind of just the obvious stuff that needs to happen for government to be able to function better, honestly, and adapt to the 21st century. So. So there there is, I think that beyond that, I think there are then questions about what directions do we take this into, you know, I think there is a way that it's like, very much Smart Cities driven, you know, this kind of idea of like, which we haven't spoken about at all, but which I think many people who, who think they're going to listen to the Chief Digital Services Officer of San Francisco, probably imagine that, that, you know, I would be talking about smart cities, because that's just such a dominant kind of narrative and the government innovation space. You know, really, like, it's very hard to understand what that means beyond like sensors on lampposts. Like I still can't, it's like still very hard to get under the and it's like, such a sort of, like, male dominated, kind of like, devoid of people kind of agenda that it's like, hard for me to sort of like, take it seriously.

42:07

But

42:09

to think no disrespect to anyone listening, might be really into smart cities and bitterly disappointed.

42:21

Yeah, I like that. So I think, you know, that is like one sort of a dystopian future, right? where like, we forget that people are the lifeblood of cities, and we only think of cities in terms of infrastructure. And basically, as cities become such, like, depressing sort of, like dystopian, futuristic kind of places that literally nobody wants to live there. And it's all just like, empty tower blocks filled with like investment from overseas. And that that just becomes kind of what's a hollowed out as hollowed out cities look like, right. And we do see pockets of that in global cities around the world. And it is like a worrying trend, I think. Or maybe there's another feature where we recognise that like, all inhabitants of the city, because I think what's really interesting here in San Francisco is we never talk about citizens, right? We talk about residents, or San Franciscans. And we do that because we know that many of the people who live in San Francisco aren't citizens. In fact, some of them are, you know, many of them immigrants, some of them are undocumented. But but we have responsibility to all of them, right. And they all make up our city. And so but, you know, thinking about our cities, in those terms, it's everybody who is in this city, not just the people who can afford to buy a house here or apartment here, but you know, the person who's living on the street, as much as the, you know, the the people who run the businesses, the large companies that are based here, as well as the small businesses that are serving that community. And so we can think about that kind of like glorious jumble of people as being like this kind of this sort of kinetic energy in a city and think, like, how can we make this a place where that can thrive? That kind of jumble of people can thrive and sort of rub along next to each other without too much friction? And what can we do to support that? And that might mean, you know, more equitable social services, it definitely means addressing housing policy, it definitely means dealing with public transport better. And I say this, not just for San Francisco, but for all global cities. Right, because I think this is a phenomenon that's not unique. So yeah, so that's another feature right? And it feels very different than the sort of smart cities agenda that we we hear so much about.

Will McInnes  44:46

I absolutely love it. I'm I'm, I'm buying this vision and it's it's more human and richer and Messier and livelier and not devoid, which is great. So as we begin to kind of wrap up on the discussion, I was thinking about your journey, and I was thinking about how cool it must be to be the Chief Digital Services Officer of San Francisco. And I think what do you do? Like not that you're ready, but what do you do next after that? It's like, you guys, the Bay Area? It's the tech hub. It's it's Silicon Valley, like, wet? Like, have you ever thought about, you know, the, the further out future? Or, you know, some people don't plan like that?

45:32

Yeah, I mean, it's been, it's like, it's been so different going from kind of running a company to be working on the inside of government. And, and so I've definitely had to adjust my mindset from like, you know, when you're working, when you're running a company, especially, you know, a company where, where there's kind of, it's an agency type of model, like, you are really kind of, like, you have this sort of sprint mindset where, you know, you, okay, I've got this six month engagement and the client, I've got six months to make an impact, hopefully, there's some follow on sales there, like, you know, it's all about sort of delivering those outcomes. But, you know, ultimately, knowing that you, you hope you have a long term partnership with that client, but you also know that that might, it may not pan out that way, right? working inside of government, it's much more about relationships, right, and like building relationships for for the long term, and kind of recognising all the complexities of everything that's happening and meeting people where they are, and sometimes that can make progress feels so slow, because, you know, I know that if I were doing this from an agency angle, I would have been kind of in and out multiple times by now with like, different deliverables and different projects. And sometimes it can feel quite a different, like more of a marathon mindset. But but it's definitely been interesting, so far, being on the inside of government, rather than the outside. Beyond this, I don't know. I am, you know, definitely interested in making an impact. And, you know, these themes that we've spoken about today, you know, bringing, bringing equity in general, from whatever angle and I don't think you need to be in government to make that happen. You don't even need to be in public services to make that happen. You could be in venture capital, honestly, like, the distribution of venture capital in this world is like insanely, inequitable. And, you know, again, like you can you can draw direct lines between the distribution of venture capital and the inequality and, you know, in the employment market and all kinds of other things. So, so that, you know, that there, I guess my point is, like, there's many angles that you can take to improve the world. So, if anyone has suggestions for what next and will is, but for now, I'll just try and fix those Excel spreadsheets.

Will McInnes  47:46

That is a brilliant, brilliant punch line. Wonderful. How can people follow you? Where's a good place to point people?

47:55

I mean, Twitter, I guess is probably the best.

Will McInnes  47:58

There we go. So Kerry, Bishop, thank you so much for spending the time today. I really, really appreciate it and I've learned loads me.

48:04

It's nice to see you. I hope everything's all right in your world.

Will McInnes  48:07

Yeah, it's good. I've you know, been on my own adventure. And in a bit like, you're still still, there's so much more impact I want to have. Yeah, talking to us been really, it's been really nutritious.

48:21

who happened to be at a nutrient?

Will McInnes  48:24

Right, I'm gonna stop recording.

In this episode we discover and explore how a new kind of citizen journalism is changing the world with Eliot Higgins of Bellingcat, the foremost pioneer worldwide in online investigations and open source analysis, whose work uses publicly available online resources and content freely - and often bizarrely - shared in social media to expose alleged Russian state killers, identify the exact anti-aircraft unit involved in the shooting down of Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 and prosecute murderers of innocent children and their mothers in Cameroon.

From this very practical, deeply determined work from his home - and alongside a growing team and crowdsourcing community - Higgins has built up a unique global expertise.

Through our discussion, you’ll hear Eliot’s stories and practical examples that range across some of the biggest events and news stories in the world. You’ll learn about the workflow and tools of open source investigation and intelligence brought to these global events, the motivating forces of accountability and justice, and we get properly into the timely topic of conspiracy theories, including QAnon, manufactured consent, misinformation and propaganda - a topic that first bubbled up in conversation with Eric in Episode 2, ‘Deep Fake, bots & Synthetic Art with Eric Drass’.

I’m pretty sure this episode with the founder of Bellingcat will get you thinking more about the power of online communities in our lives - both for good and for bad, as well as casting a comically amateurish light on how evil perpetrators handle themselves in digital spaces.

Links

* Eliot Higgins on Twitter

* Eliot Higgins - Wikipedia

* Bellingcat website

* ‘We Are Bellingcat’ book - available for pre-order

Credits

* Lee Rosevere for music

Automated Transcript

Automated transcript

Will McInnes  00:04

Now today we have a very special guest, who's going to expand your mind about the world of online investigations until this moment, You might not believe that you could credibly prove the identity of highly trained undercover Russian killers. The origin and type of chemical weapons used in an attack in Syria, or the exact location where an American journalist was assassinated, just from online research, but you can, or more accurately, Eliot Higgins and the team and crowdsourcing community he's built up bellingcat can do prove all of this. They don't just prove it. Their work reaches international courts, law enforcement agencies and worldwide media, bringing justice to victims and accountability to the world's most feared perpetrators. So let's dive right in and learn more about what's here right now. So Elliot, thank you so much for being here with us today. I've been following You and your work for years now is just trying to dig around the internet and do my own online investigation and try and find out how long I've been following you for but I couldn't, couldn't quite get to the bottom of it. But you've come a long way. And the practices and tools and quality of your work has has had a really meaningful impact. And I just have so much respect for what you've achieved. How did you get going, like where did this all begin?

Eliot Higgins  02:26

It really started probably back in 2011, with the conflict in Libya, where I was just spending a lot of time online kind of arguing with people on the internet about things and I was interested in the Arab Spring what was happening there just because my own kind of interests in you know, I kind of grew up between the first Gulf War and the second Gulf War in 2003. And the kind of build up of that and kind of misinformation around that and the discussions around it kind of fueled my interest in kind of Middle East and US foreign policy. In a kind of Europe's in the UK, his involvement in that. So obviously Libya and what was happening there was of great interest. But with the internet, you had this kind of new element where now you have lots of videos and photographs being shared that claim to be from various places showing various things but issue around verifying what was actually true and what wasn't and arguments about that. So I first started doing is looking at these videos and thinking, you know, how can I figure out where these were actually filmed. And that's when I first realised you could look at satellite imagery, and compare what you could see in satellite imagery to what you could see in videos and photographs and confirm these locations. And that was kind of my first experience with what then became known as your geolocation, which is like a core kind of skill and technique we use nowadays with open source investigation. Over time, I kind of built up a kind of little reputation online for doing this kind of thing. And then in early 2012, I started a blog that then just let me I kind of did it as a hobby as a kind of give myself some time. Because my first child had just been born, and for previous few months, my kind of hobbies and interests got out the window. So I was getting used to that. And then I found myself with a bit of time. And I kind of came back to looking at these kind of videos. And this time it was mainly from Syria, and also looking at the phone hacking scandal in the UK, but it was all using kind of open source material. And it really just kind of dip out from that there is kind of small community starts to emerge online of people from all kinds of different backgrounds, some work in places like storyful, and Dublin, which was kind of factchecking and looking for this kind of content. Human Rights Watch, for example, there's some interest from journalists and it kind of just built an expanded from their entire launch bellingcat in 2014.

Will McInnes  04:41

It's brilliant, and I can't wait to share with people some of the the global events of such huge significance that you've, you and your team have contributed to understanding better. I guess when I was thinking about us talking I was wondering, were there clues in Who you were growing up? I used to be really interested in the armed forces. I was thinking maybe you were interested in puzzles, like, is there clues that got you into this line of work, but now you look back down the road, you can see the kind of the trail? Well,

Eliot Higgins  05:14

um, I mean, when I was a teenager in my 20s, I used to read a lot of kind of, like, I guess you would say, left wing, especially American left wing literature. I was also interested, you know, I grew up watching things like michael moore's TV nation, you know, listening to, you know, kind of spoken word stuff that was kind of a left wing, you know, read loads of Noam Chomsky, Naomi Klein, and, you know, that kind of literature. And then that gave me an interest, I think, in kind of American foreign policy in particular, but also, you know, with things like Manufacturing Consent, this information and how countries use information to build narratives and how the media is complicit in that. I mean, now, the kind of people who do that nowadays are the people who kind of read Hey, cat rubber ironically. So I always feel a bit, it's a bit of a shame that those people kind of see it as being, you know, bellingcat been part of the CIA and, you know, that kind of thing. But I kind of understand where they're coming from it to a certain degree. But that's kind of where I think a lot of my interest was I also, you know, I was kind of a Sony spent a lot of time on the internet. So I think big part of kind of internet culture kind of helped me kind of understand, you know, certain aspects of it, or how information was being shared and how these debates happen. And that's become kind of more more useful as kind of online culture has kind of grown and also, you know, started having kind of negative impacts. You've kind of started seeing communities go around conspiracy theories, you know, Cuba norm and all these kind of things, but in a way, it's just repeating the same dynamics I've seen over the kind of last kind of 2025 years of how the internet has developed and also has meant that I understood how as we've kind of done the work of belling cat and we've kind of grown this network have individuals working together? You know, globally or online? It's because I think partly I understand how online communities kind of work. I mean, part of that is just through kind of experience, you know, doing online gaming and building communities there. And the same kind of dynamics exist in all kinds of different kinds of internet communities be they focused on serious subjects or more enjoyable, fun, lighter subjects. But it has been very interesting, particularly last few years seeing the rise of these kind of conspiracy minded communities, how the kind of dynamics and what kind of fuels that is often exactly the same kind of thing happening again and again, born of a wide variety of topics.

Will McInnes  07:39

That is a really fascinating point. And I would love to come back to conspiracy theories because the rise of conspiracy theories is it's a tide that's reaching shores far closer than I'd expect. I actually had the first WhatsApp message from some of my oldest and most trusted friends were one of them shared something that was conspiracy theory and it feels like a very timely topic for us to return to at some point in this discussion when I think about your work, just a, you know, a short potted history you've uncovered the use of barrel bombs cluster weapons, chemical weapons in Syria. You've used your location to estimate where the American journalist James Foley was executed. You've proposed a particular anti aircraft brigade and the actual serial number of the launcher that shot down Malaysian Airlines Mh 17 I was watching the saulsbury documentary or or drama on Netflix yesterday, you uncovered the identities of two or three of the key Russian operatives involved in that poisoning in Salisbury in the UK, it's an incredible body of work. I guess. I wonder what for you selfishly has, has given you the most reward satisfaction in the discoveries that you've contributed to or the in justices that you've attempted to balance out?

Eliot Higgins  09:07

Oh, I mean, there's quite a lot. I mean, mX 17, for us was very important. Because there we had the first case where we had a really strong counter narrative coming from Russia and really strong disinformation, which we're able to kind of categorically disprove and counter that narrative and, you know, within the public bring this understanding to them of what really happened. And now, of course, we have the core case. And a lot of what we've been saying for the past six years is now you know, being brought up in the court case, and you know, the story of that they're talking about in the school case, is what we revealed over the last six years, we've done work, for example, elsewhere, using crowdsourcing to help with the Europol trace and object stop child abuse campaign where Europol has asked the public to look at objects that were basically cut out of abuse imagery, and ask them to help ask the public to help figure out where they work by amplifying that and working on that we've, you know, help children's be rescued and suspects be arrested. So that has a really positive impact. You know, the stuff we've done, for example, we work collaboratively, collaboratively with BBC Africa is on a project examining the execution of two women and two very young children in Cameroon. It was a video that was being distributed on social media. And because we did that work, the soldiers involved were upon trial and be found guilty for this murder. And if it wasn't for that open source investigation is extremely unlikely anything would have ever been done about this execution. So I mean, that's just a small example of it. But also, you know, more broadly speaking, it's taking this kind of thing I started as a hobby back in 2012, to a point where we're now talking to bodies like the International Criminal Court about how open source investigation can be used in the work they're doing and turning this kind of new field of the kind of online open source investigation into something that's being taken very seriously and it's becoming something that although is kind of in a way, first really done by him. is now something that's widely recognised as a very serious and professional field.

Will McInnes  11:05

Just so profound the work you're doing those examples, you know, just reflecting like wow, to be able to say that you have helped with the identification and prosecution of war criminals who've done such appalling things. It's just amazing and and I hear you talking about the the maturation I guess the the movement from, you know, inverted commas amateur to professional and the significance of the attention and respect that this that these practices are getting. And I'm just imagining if someone's listening to this podcast on a jog or on a commute, not that not that many people commute anymore, they might be trying to catch up. They're like, this sounds interesting. This guy and his team are working on incredible things that I recognise and have heard of, but what is open source investigation, and could you just unpack that a little bit, for the for The novice.

Eliot Higgins  12:01

So open source intelligence is something that has been around for a long time. It's basically using all publicly available material to help build intelligence. And in a way, what we do open source investigation is very similar. The online part is actually fairly crucial. Because what's happened over the last 15 years or so is there's been a massive increase in the amount of information that's coming from online sources. And this is a very, very new thing. And it's partly fueled by the rise of smartphones, particularly with the release of the iPhone in 2007. And in parallel to that the availability of information thanks to social media platforms making information more available, and that's fueled by smartphones being available to everyone. So you can take a photograph and share within seconds. The rise of sites like Google Earth, and Google streetview given us reference imagery, and just basically more ways to discover and search for, for just a huge, vast, unimaginable amount of information and actually use To draw conclusions, you know, just piece stuff together, in a way is when an event happens, it creates kind of ripples on the internet. And we're trying to identify those ripples and figure out where they're coming from and kind of focus on one part of, you know, one event and reconstruct it using this information. This kind of, we explore the kind of networks of information that are being created, not just you know, social media accounts being linked together. But even within a photograph that is shared online, there's a vast amount of information that can be gathered from that you know, where it was taken, when it was taken, who's in it, what it shows in the background. And when you have one of those images, it's strong, but when you have dozens of them, and you have material that you can piece together, you can actually get a very complete picture of what happened in somewhere that could be thousands of miles away in a remote location. I mean, we've been spending a lot of time recently looking at Saudi airstrikes in Yemen. And when we first started that, I generally believe, you know, there wouldn't be that much information because you don't think of Yemen as being a very connected sculpture. But even there we are finding enough information to draw conclusions about these airstrikes to show there were targeting civilian infrastructure, you know, marketplaces were being bombed. And there was no evidence of, you know, suppose a targets military targets that were being targeted there and contradicted directly what the Saudis were claiming about these attacks. So it's kind of using this kind of digital detective worse work, I guess, to piece together things. And going back to the idea of conspiracy theories, you know, in a way this is what the Cuban community does, they piece together stuff, you know, from online sources, but the difference is, we have kind of more of a we're looking for soul connections we're not looking for Oh, you know, someone most once posted on this day, you know, something, the word pizza therefore, this guy is a paedophile that kind of cueing on stuff. We're looking at direct connections between things. And for me, when I started blogging, I understood the limits of my knowledge. You know, I don't have a background in arms and munitions and, you know, conflict analysis. My background I used to finance and admin work, but What I was very clear about is what I could see in these videos and photographs, what I could say about it and what I couldn't say about it. So I could say this video was filmed in a location. And it see it has these military vehicles in it and these other details, but at first, I couldn't say too much about it. But over time, I built my own knowledge, but also was very important about this online open source investigation is it involves an online community, and some of them are experts. Some of them are keen amateurs, some have experience in different areas. When we were doing the Cameroonian investigation, for example, that was made up of a team of people from Amnesty International people from belling cat people from the BBC, but also people from Twitter who are just basically keen amateurs, but who are really, really good at doing things like geolocation. So and they're really motivated to do that. So it's not something that's kind of exclusionary. It's not like saying how we're the experts and no one else can be an expert. You know, my own background is not an expert background. So I understand the value of that. You know, a good research you can can kind of come from any kind of background. You don't have to go to university and spend, you know, five years getting a master's degree in open source investigation, partly because those kinds of courses don't exist at the moment, so much. But often the best people who do these kind of investigations are kind of very keen amateurs who will obsess over a particular subject

Will McInnes  16:20

from following you for years. I can I can picture in my mind the kind of materials that you guys scour your way through. You know, from from memory, it's, it's Russian soldiers posting photos to Facebook groups, its YouTube videos filmed by people of, of war, they may be civilians, they may be participants. So you're so in very practical terms, that content as well, as you mentioned, Google Earth and Google streetview. You're taking these broad sources but you're also taking individually shared so Media on you'd like it's it's cut. There's been moments where it's made my mind boggle the amount that people who are apparently, you know, conducting secret military operations or doing very bad things are actually still sharing this stuff online.

Eliot Higgins  17:14

Yeah, when we're looking into one of the scripts or suspects, I think it was wrestling before Bhatia off was the student and he was using those reports in the home it was the Daily Mail that young woman was claiming that she had been contacted by I should met this guy, and they're kind of been flirting and she said, Follow me on Facebook and we discovered the Facebook page of Ruslan boshirov. But what we're able to do this, he had taken it, there's no posts on the page here just listed. He was from Russia in the description, his name, we're taking a photograph and that photograph was taken in a square and posted on a certain day and it was taken in a square in the Czech Republic we had geolocator and this is where she says she met him. And not only that, but later reports showed that the two suspects had actually been in the country on the that very day when this photograph was taken and shared on Facebook. And he just done that. So we could kind of chat up a girl basically, he was married as well. So that's, that's an issue for him. But it was a really dumb thing to do. And we find that time and time again, you know, people you, I mean, there's this sense that, you know, if you're a spy, you're gonna be really careful and really intelligent and, you know, cover your tracks and you know, be really good. But we time and time again, find that's not the case at all. I mean, it's like with the triple case, you had this completely absurd interview on Russia day where you had the two suspects, and they were sports nutrition salesman, and within 24 hours, we could show that No, they're not sports nutrition salesmen. They're very different from sports nutrition salesman, but still, they made this public appearance that in a way, if it wasn't for that public appearance, maybe our story wouldn't be so big, because they made this kind of big show of it. It gave us a kind of real boost for the story that we did published and in the end, what we revealed ended up in the Yukon The front page of pretty much every single newspaper. And it was incredibly embarrassing for the Russian government. And then what happened to add to this kind of stupidity of the situation, you had the Russian ambassador to UK giving a press conference, where he repeatedly claimed that bellingcat was working for the intelligence services and funded by them. And were part of what he described as the British deep establishment, which I think was his attempt not to say the deep state. And at the end of that press conference, he asked questions, and the very first question was from a journalist saying, Well, where's your proof that bellingcat is doing this? And he says, Well, we don't have anything we can show you. We just have a feeling. And it was just a perfect encapsulation of how dumb and how you know, you know, just completely prophetic. The Russian strategy is when it really comes down to communication because it's not based on fat builders any garbage they like, but when they actually get challenged on it, it just all falls apart immediately. And we found that time and time again, it's like we've me, Chairman team, they're bombing Serious buys everything they just don't expect, but they don't even I mean, they might expect it, but they don't seem to respect that if they lie, and so and catch them at the lie, it's a bad thing. They just keep lying again and again and again, I advise anyone who's getting into open source investigation is to watch a kind of Russian Ministry of Defence press conference. In fact, check it because you'll always have to be fine. They're lying about something. And it's a good way to kind of practice your skills.

Will McInnes  20:23

Kind of comical, awful, hilarious, all in one go. When something happens. What is the workflow? Are there other things that take a very long time to build? And then they gain a momentum? Or is there a kind of an early rush? Like, what's the Do they have different peaks and troughs? what's the what's the rhythm of the work?

Eliot Higgins  20:43

It can vary a lot. For example, at the start of this year, we have the shooting down of ps 752 and around a Ukrainian aircraft. And when that happens, we were kind of doing other stuff as a kind of team. We're now like, we've got like 18 staff members, that The moment and volunteers work together on slack and other communication channels. But at first, we weren't really looking at it. But because we were known for Mh 17, people saw aircraft being shot down in Ukraine and started just sending us everything about pr 752. And very quickly, we just had so much material, we kind of had to look at it. And it was an interesting case anyway, especially when imagery started showing up that appeared to show a missile hitting the aircraft that night. The remains of missiles that are anti aircraft, missiles supposedly taken in that area. And we have to kind of do some analysis on that just because it kind of grew very rapidly and organically, in our kind of, you know, our investigation team. Sometimes it's an individual investigator will be interested in something and work on something and then come to us with kind of the finished product or you know, nearly the finished project. Sometimes a few of the team will work together. So, and I'm a very strong believer that I want people to investigate things that interest them, not just tell people to do stuff, so I'm never really telling people suing him. investigation, they're finding interesting stuff. And then if they're investigating it, and they're interested in it in it, they will dig and dig and dig and dig, and they will stick at it. And it's like what happened to me 17 I mean, we've got, you know, people who've been working on that since July 17 2014, who are still looking into new angles on Mh 17. And because we've stuck at it for so long, we have people who want a new piece of information appears like we're seeing at the trial. We can contextualise it very, very quickly, because we understand all these tiny little elements of the entire case. And I think that's been very important for us to kind of go have an edge over more traditional media organisations, and also unusually bellingcat. Whilst it is often seen as a media organisation, we do a whole range of different kinds of work with different kinds of organisations and some of it is focused on more Justice and Accountability then producing a kind of final media project project. So we have a process we'd like to call identify, verify and amplify where we identify information as part of our investigation. But then verify it. Once it's verified, we then have multiple ways to amplify it. So bear with me, show me team, we've done multiple articles and reports. But we've also done a very high quality podcast series that we released last year. We've worked with various media produced different kinds of products, we've submitted information to the European Court of Human Rights case on it, and you know, all these different kind of applications of what we've managed to verify. Because I kind of feel like you want to make the most of this material because often this material is being filmed by people on the ground, who are at great risk, and they're filming it because they want something done about it. They want the world to know about it. They want accountability for what's happening. And in bellingcat that's in a way what we try and deliver with this material.

Will McInnes  23:45

When you harness the interest that your researchers have and you and you encourage that kind of climate of, let's pursue what we think is interesting and let's see where it takes us. What are the underlying behaviours or qualities that may People great at this work like what what does it take to be this kind of investigator or analyst,

Eliot Higgins  24:06

I think it's more perseverance and a real desire to find out as much as you can about a subject and the kind of feeling that's rewarding because often you're digging through masses of irrelevant material. Like when we were looking at the 53rd Air Defence Brigade, which we identified as being part of the, but they basically transferred the missile launcher that shot down extremities to the border with Ukraine through Russia. And they had a social media page and their social media page was filled, followed by a lot of the brigade members. So over about a year, a couple of researchers used all of that, that basically entire social network to piece together the entire structure of the brigade photographs and names of all the people in there, the people who are parts of the convoy and which vehicles they were in and, you know, all these tiny little details but that requires digging through literally thousands of web pages 10s of thousands of photographs looking at tiny tiny details, and that The kind of perseverance you need when you're building something like that. That's not to say that every single investigation is like a huge complex thing. Sometimes it's just like saying, you know, where was this one video filmed. A good example of that is when we were doing our investigation into Russian airstrikes in Syria that started in late 2015. Because there, Russia had started posting gun camera videos of their bombings onto YouTube. And they would post a few every single day. And very quickly, a very small community of people on Twitter started geo locating them and showing that they were inaccurate. They weren't the places where they claimed to be bombing. Sometimes they were the only one example. They bombed the same place three times. And on each video, it claims to be in a different part of Syria. So we started a project there where we use that small community of people doing in a way a fairly discrete task of geo locating one video at a time and use that to build a dataset showing that Russia was consistently lying about who and what it was bombing in Syria. So what we'll do with that now is we're launching a volunteer session on balance bellingcat because we get A lot of people asking if they can volunteer will have those kind of more discreet tasks shared with the kind of public allowing them to get involved with that kind of investigative work.

Will McInnes  26:10

That's amazing. So like your own belling cat, Mechanical Turk, a kind of army of volunteers who are motivated and who do some of the next line of of the work that happens. And I was wondering about this, this beautiful interplay between you and your close collaborators, and then the broader community? Because you and I are familiar with the idea of crowdsourcing, but what does crowdsourcing look like in practical terms for you guys in the work that you do?

Eliot Higgins  26:41

I mean, sometimes it's because we're making a request to our audience on social media, we'll say, you know, particularly on Twitter, you know, does anyone know what can I figure out where this was filmed? Like we've made 17 there was a video showing missile launcher driving down the road. I just tweeted out Can anyone figure out where this is and within 10 minutes at you 20 ounces of people pointing to set several locations, but most of them point to this one location showed double checks and it was the correct place. Another example we had ISIS supporters posting images on telegram where they were holding a piece of paper with a kind of ISIS hash tag on it. And we and they were ISIS supporters were part of these telegram group groups, and they're in Europe. And the idea was they were trying to spread fear in Europe that there's ISIS supporters everywhere. But because they took photographs with pieces of paper with a background, you could actually geo locate the background and there is kind of followers on Twitter if they could figure it out. And most of them they found within about 10 minutes. So and then that was kind of passed on to local law enforcement, I'm glad to say that found some very bad people and got them into trouble. So that's kind of how we would do crowdsourcing. Sometimes it's also seeing what communities are out there already doing stuff. There's a you know, examples like even pre internet you had the kind of plane spotters with this CIA rendition flights, gathering all this information that they didn't realise pointed to what was happening, but by exploring that kind of network of information that being correct, created by people of this face specialised interest, you can discover new information. I think there was a fake photograph shared by 4chan. Alexandria ocasio Cortez, supposedly in the bath, it was her feet. But there was a reflection they were claiming it was on her Instagram account. And the wiki Fie community, which is a community of fetishes, immediately discovered, said this is not her This is this particular model, ever. It's only because they have that very specialised knowledge of wind speed, that they can make the identity identification very quickly. But it's always you know, that there are these communities out there have all kinds of different interests that can be extremely useful. I mean, even now, play spotters are very useful for kind of spotting people who've landed in airports without their transponders on, you know, that can be used for investigation. So that information is out there, it's just kind of knowing where to look and how to explore it.

Will McInnes  29:04

I literally can't imagine a better example of how to tap a niche community of knowledge than the wiki feet community, which is, which I've only just learned about right now. And that is quite amazing. One of the other things that I'm guessing that our listeners will be pondering to themselves is Whoa, like, this is pretty heavy duty. How do you interact with authorities? And does it feel heavy to you this this work? Does your own personal risk and safety come into it as well?

Eliot Higgins  29:34

Obviously, we haven't got many friends in the Russian authorities. So we kind of had the policy that you know, we can take certain steps which are kind of cyber security, for example, our personal security to a certain extent, but in a way, the best security you can have is by just being as high profile as possible and making as a difficult target to attack. I mean, I've been attacked a lot in the Russian media, we've had cyber attacks, but that kind of all is something we publicise as much as possible, because then it kind of gives us, you know, it makes people aware that we're the sort of person who will be, you know, attacked in this way by the Russian government. And if I stub my toe, people will think the Russians government's behind it. So in a way, that's a certain level of protection. I mean, we get contacted by authorities as well in different countries, because often we're talking about, you know, discovering spies and stuff. They've been operating in their country, and they'd really like to fight, find out how we figured it out. So, for example, in Bulgaria, there was a case where a local businessman was poisoned. And we discovered that it was actually connected to the same Gru unit that poisoned skiffle. And then that led to the local authorities reaching out and talking to us about us and asking us, you know, could we tell them about what we found? it? I mean, one of the most alarming things for this is often where we're approached by people look kind of law enforcement, you really haven't even discovered you've got a clue about what we're doing, let alone the evidence we've discovered. But that's kind of understandable because the kind of origin ones that are doing investigations at the moment are often quite large bureaucratic organisations. And this is a very new and kind of amateur in a way feel that's becoming professionalised. So it's really only in the last couple of years with the skripal case, in particular, and how the Mh 17 cases moved into trial session where I think that kind of community is taking open source investigation more seriously. So that's kind of been a real change over the last couple of years of how that's being used now, by organisations like that and the interest in it amazing.

Will McInnes  31:31

How do you personally find downtime in this work like the headspace? It strikes me that this is always on and there's always something to solve? How do you chill out

Eliot Higgins  31:43

I think a lot of the people who do this kind of work because they find it so enjoyable to do it's kind of their it's their hobby as well as their job. So it's not a nine to five job where you kind of switch off at five o'clock because you're you enjoy so much the investigation process that often it just becomes useful. Tired day. I've wife and two children, so I have to be a bit more careful about that plus, now betting has become a much larger organisation with like, for example, a fully registered charity in the Netherlands and we have a proper Business Administration team and stuff like that I find myself more doing the higher kind of level organisational stuff than the investigative stuff which I missed to a certain extent. But it also means that I can now go and do interesting projects like you know, I've been working on a book that will be coming out next year called we are belling cat. We've got various media products that we've been developing, we've worked on podcasts. And that allows us to bring this message to a new audience. So it's a new interesting thing for me, but it is difficult to switch off when you're an investigator and you're like, Okay, maybe if I click on that number 20 web pages, I'll find that one little clue I'm looking for. And then when you find that little clue, you think, okay, I can look at another 50 web pages and maybe find even more stuff and it just builds from there. So it can be quite, it's enjoyable, but it can be quite exhausting doing it kind of nonstop, but You know, it is very satisfying when you find that one thing that basically makes your entire case for you and approve something, you know, beyond that,

Will McInnes  33:07

yeah, I totally get that. When you think about the future of the world, I'm curious, you know, your vision of how this interacts with whatever we mean by traditional journalism. So I see you as a pioneer, I see the practices and, and, and work that you guys have done this early signals of what will become normal. And you just gave an anecdote there of the bureaucratic, slower moving organisations that are formally responsible for law enforcement often kind of stumbled on your work and reveal just how little they know about these opportunities to solve to solve the problems that they want to solve. So I'm curious, like, where does this go? How does traditional journalism evolve? Is this a distinct area when you forecast what does it look like?

Eliot Higgins  33:53

I think the one trend I'm seeing more and more is an understanding that it's no longer a world where and it organisation kind of work can work on itself, you know on a story and not be involved with ever organisations that are maybe in different fields like we've been doing a lot of collaborative work with human rights organisations, news organisations, Justice and Accountability organisations where we all work together on the investigation because it's using open source evidence, and we're verifying and everyone is kind of transparent about what they're sharing. It means that again, we come to that kind of amplify stage and a newspaper can write a new story about a human rights organisation can do a kind of more reporting their style, just as accountability organs or organisations can take it to a court spelling camp and kind of produce our kind of own glasses a bit. So in a way, by collaborating together, we all get what we would get out of it anyway, but it's much much more better and it has more impacts over a wider range of fields. And I think for most people who are more used to working in a kind of more traditional model, a, you know, the idea of a human rights organisation and a news organisation and you know, all these different ways organisations working together collaboratively was quite alien. You know, you don't share your scripts with other people. But often we're working with you know, we'll find a print organisation to work with television news organisation, maybe a documentary film, kind of, you know, all those different elements of it working together to produce multiple final products. And I think that's far more effective at getting the message out than just saying, here's a news report paper report on this investigation. Because then the life of that kind of what you've discovered, what you've verified, goes beyond just that one moment is creates a series of moments and different range of fields, some of which have a much longer impact than some of the other kinds of moments but they all serve a purpose. You're much more comfortable in the pragmatic outcome focus blurriness of it you don't really care about

Will McInnes  35:51

which silo or team people belong to particularly and I think what you're saying is those who are bred bred in a in a more formal Domain might find that blurriness a bit more challenging to deal with. It's it's fascinating to me how that how that story evolves. And I think the multi disciplinary nature and the collaborative DNA that you guys have is really interesting part of the success,

Eliot Higgins  36:17

I think, as well, when I'm often talking to organisations that are interested in countering disinformation, for example, and that's a big topic at the moment. They're often so focused on the kind of thing they're doing, they don't actually think about how they're going to go about doing it. They think they think they do, but they don't understand that we live in a connected online community. And you have all these kind of counter disinformation groups appearing and they produce stuff on the internet, but because they're kind of one thing in a massive kind of community, they don't really propagate through that community, if you see what I mean. And because with bellingcat, what we're doing is we're connected to all sorts of different people in all sorts of communities and we're using our community to be part of our investigation. It means we're almost like part of a living organism rather than just something that's kind of stuck on the side of it. And I think understanding the difference between the those two is crucial to, you know, a whole range of fields, particularly this issue now, where we have disinformation and conspiracy theories becoming so widespread. And the reason those conspiracy theories become so widespread spread is because they are part of that same organism, they're kind of internet organism, and they kind of grow and evolve and spread through it. So as I mentioned earlier, and as actually our guest, I think it was on episode two who specialises in creating art from what lots of people would call deep fake. He was saying that he'd noticed more people in his personal social network spreading conspiracy theories and, and I was alarmed at that, but it hadn't affected me yet. And then in recent times, graduates in my social network, people who you know, are in theory, I'm not graduate, so I don't really care whether someone's been to university or not, but but I'm trying to reach for like something level of healthy scepticism and education and worldliness

Will McInnes  38:04

conspiracy we seem to be awash in conspiracy. And given how bizarre and awful 2020 has been, I can understand that that's an environment ripe for fantastical beliefs. But what's your take on all of this

Eliot Higgins  38:17

being very much part of unlike communities, I've kind of seen this evolve over time. And it really comes down to how the internet is really good and make you find people who think exactly the same way that you do. And for most people, we've kind of fairly normal thoughts, that's okay. But you always have part of those communities of kind of buy into conspiracy theories or kind of more fringe theories. And then when they do that, they kind of become the outcasts of those communities. But luckily for them, they can find another community that is has a similar kind of viewpoint, and then they might become too extreme for that and they find another community that's a bit more extreme. And it goes on and on before you before you know it, you know, you're thinking that, you know, bleach is a brilliant medicine or Or you know Coronavirus is complete fake, or that, you know, Donald Trump is trying to save the world from a evil cabal of paedophiles. And those people because they tend to be more extreme in their beliefs also tend to be the kind of noisy so now this online, but also we have it working now is the kind of algorithm that these social media companies use to help people find content. And I think one of the issues is if you're, you see a video on YouTube, and it's claiming something completely wild, you might click on it, you know, for a laugh, just kind of something boring, you probably won't. And you might not believe it, you might never watch a video like that again. But the algorithm has been taught that people will click on these videos, and it will then recommend these videos to people. And even if 1% of those people buy into it, you start building a community around it. And that starts you know, creating creating a feedback loop into the algorithm where more and more people are seeing these videos, meaning that more and more people are being converted into these crazy ways of thinking and you see this time and time again with all kinds of different things. Also, you have people in this country He's especially the more extreme ones where they are often people who spend a lot of time on the internet and base a lot of their personal value and what self worth on being part of these communities and being a useful part of these communities. So they tend to be quite noisy, they also tend to be quite aggressive online or you know, quite produce a lot of content, which means it creates even more people who are following this stuff because there's more content for people to be found. If you just got normal average views, the internet isn't really for you. The internet is designed around people who have kind of more extreme or specialised views and that can be in sometimes quite useful. I mean, in a way the Bangkok community has people arranged in a specialised area. But in other areas, it's not it's like q anon for example, you also have this other layer where certain communities are really interested in investigation and the bellingcat community because in a way, it's almost like a in a way a game is something that you can come get absorbed him it's something where there's always a new clue, a new thing to discover. And you see a power With that, I think with the Q anon community, it's almost like alternative reality games, except the community itself with q anon is building that alternative reality as they're playing in the game in a sense. So there's always some new idea, someone's always adding something saying, Oh, well, you know, if you look at the cue clock, it tells us, you know, this piece of information, and none of it really makes any sense, even to some of the people who are part of it, but that kind of feels like it makes sense, if you see what I mean. And that really is what fuels this and that's why in a way, it's so dangerous and damaging because there's no way to kind of stop that kind of thinking you know, you can't like say to you can't explain to people they're wrong, because then that you become part of the conspiracy they said, well, you're just you know, she Paul who believes any nonsense, and you know, q anon is kind of one of the biggest examples of this but it also comes down to things like truffer ism around there. Mm hmm. Team, for example, you have a community that is so convinced that Russia Russia is completely innocent, even though there's literally photographs of the missile in the ad, you know, videos of the missile So launcher, they always find some reason to say, Oh, no, that's fake. That's misleading. It's the same with chemical weapons attacks in Syria. And that is actually an area that's becoming slightly more dangerous because you're seeing slightly more mainstream acceptance of the idea that these chemical weapon attacks in Syria are fabricated. You know, it's the White Helmets faking stuff. Yeah, typically around the 2018 doomer. chemical attack? Well, I know there's Members of Parliament who believe the Duma chemical attack was, you know, a setup wasn't, you know, fake. And that's completely insane. But there's a community of this kind of alt left community that promote these ideas, they get these leaked documents from the OPC w that don't quite say the things they say they mean, but they're very technical and difficult to understand unless you've really been in the roots of it. So this is kind of where, in a way you have, if you imagine kind of the Venn diagrams of online communities, the kind of mainstream community and the edge of the kind of conspiracy theory community is kind of where you want to place that's where you want to watch. You can't jump in conspiracy theorists community and tell them they're all wrong. It's all conspiracy theories, because they aren't going to listen to you. But we can look at is how the kind of edges of that kind of Venn, the circles of that Venn diagram start crossing over, and what are in a way the centres of gravity that's drawing those together and why that's happening. And that's the area that I think needs to be paid attention to and analysed. And in a way, often when we're dealing with bellingcat. Now, you know, some of the topics we work on with like me, 17, and chemical weapons attack. We know that by kind of trying to debate every single point, you're just adding fuel to the conspiracy theories fire and it's best in many cases, just to try to ignore it until it gets to the point where it has this kind of mainstream crossover, but at the same time was ignoring it also knowing what it is and actually having a reason to counter it because you will end up in many cases, having those arguments with people who should know better

Will McInnes  43:49

is the people that should know better than I'm most worried about earlier, but there was loads of wisdom in what you just said. There was also a moment that genuinely introduced a new idea. And kind of blew my mind a little bit, which is, you're the first person that said to me that these narratives can create a world that people can live in and calling on popular culture, my own experiences, playing video games, you know, my love of fiction, whatever, the power of propaganda misinformation, just I've never thought of those as a world, but when you think of them as a world, there's, there's magic in that world building is a magical thing to do. Whether you're JK Rowling or Tolkien or Putin, I guess, will trump I will have to ponder that

Eliot Higgins  44:40

a bit further. If you think about what's happening in America at the moment with kind of the way Trump kind of says something stupid. And then you have the alt right media kind of laundrette for him and then you have kind of Fox News kind of give the mainstream version of it and Fox and trump watches that go so I was right all along and you have an entire Media community that people who want to believe Trump is great can go to and just exist inside. It's an alternative universe they've basically created. And in America if it gets particularly severe because you've got an entire political network that is part of that now, the republican party has basically bought completely into this kind of cult of Trump and how the right wing media uses, you know, misinformation and disinformation, to propagate stuff. That's untrue. And it's part of American culture. And we get to that point, we can clearly see the dangers of that by just looking at what's happening in America at the moment with Coronavirus and the violence that the protests and the way Trump is fueling this stuff because he realises or maybe just naturally moves that way that this is where in a way his power comes from, and that he's got a supplicant political party party and media ecosystem that supports that. And in a way, you know, you have these discussions about Oh, how did Russia influence the US election in 2016? Yeah, they had fake news sites, but the real influence there was the Fox News not rush today.

Will McInnes  46:01

Hmm. There's one last question I'd like to ask before we start to wrap up. And that is prompted by what we've just been talking about. In part, I know that you've said the people on your team need to be able to follow the things that they're interested in. That said, How, how do you guys still decide on the boundaries for where you work and where you don't? What's characteristic about the core of the work that you guys do that then determines where you find the interesting angles?

Eliot Higgins  46:30

It varies quite a lot. I mean, usually what we're thinking about is more kind of the victims in the stories and whether or not it kind of serves them to write the stories like if we have a story that would probably bring unwanted attention to the victims, we would kind of move away from that. We also think, you know, if we're writing a story, and it has more value being used elsewhere, rather than the story on the website, like we might be doing an investigation that is actually more useful if it's part of a Justice and Accountability process and maybe publishing about it will kind of reduce usefulness, then we'll kind of focus on that rather than pulling something out on the website. But, I mean, we have a pretty wide range of subjects that we look into. And usually, if there's some kind of injustice that has been done that can kind of be highlighted and corrected by investigating it.

Will McInnes  47:16

Yeah, that's what it feels like. Because it does feel like your geographies, the actors in the stories, the topics, they are broad, but I see that core of injustice. So that's that's what binds it together. I'm so grateful for your time today, Elliot will be sharing in the show notes, the links where people can find out more about belling cat where they can pre order your book where they can follow you on Twitter,

Eliot Higgins  47:38

tell us a bit about the book is basically kind of the story of you know, what I've kind of been through from my own background of, you know, non professional background turning bellingcat and my work into something that now has this kind of worldwide recognition and talking about the development of online open source investigation where it came from the impact. It's having the details of some of the investigations that we've done. You know, things like the scripting investigation and HMT and kind of how that has helped shape this kind of online open source kind of field of investigation in the community that surround that. And it's, it's full of kind of, you know, the unusual stories that we encounter and kind of this quite a lot of weirdness that happens with this kind of work as well, and some of the interesting personalities that appear around it as well. So I'm really looking forward to seeing people get a chance to read that story.

Will McInnes  48:27

I think it's gonna be great. And that's available for pre order now. That's right, I pre ordered my copy this morning. Okay, so that's we are bellingcat. And what guides what comes next for you guys?

Eliot Higgins  48:39

Well, what we continue to do is kind of expand the work that we're doing into new regions of the world, we've we're starting an expansion into Latin America and Africa. We're also developing now more ways for people to get involved with banner cast work. So we're adding a volunteer section that I mentioned before to the website, also part of the website that has basically all the tools that we use, which is many, many tools But making that more accessible for people. So it's easier for anyone who wants to do this work to actually find the guys the case studies or tools and something to do. And you know, just to continue to expand bellingcat. And you know, we've spent the last 18 months getting charity status and being audited and all this really complex business stuff. But that's given us a really solid base for future growth. So I'm really looking forward to seeing where we can go in the future.

Will McInnes  49:23

amazing work. So you are at Elliot Higgins on Twitter, which is with one l one T. Eliot Higgins, thank you so much for giving us your time today. So there it is. Episode Four with Eliot Higgins of belling cat. I hope you got some new perspectives on what's changing in the world today. I know I really did. If you enjoyed this, please do sign up here right now but sub stack.com that way you'll be the first to know every time a new episode comes out, get the guest details and the transcripts and do sign up. As for our future. There's so much more for us to cover. We have some insanely interesting guests coming up. Please do let me know if you have any feedback on Twitter. Onwards!

It underpins our society and the way that we live, the way we share. We commune, it's cultural, it's religious, it's societal. It's everything that we do. But it's also - as I say - just dinner. And so it has lots of meanings and it has, in some ways, no meaning at all.

In this episode, fellow adventurers, we’re exploring the future of food, glorious food.

I talk to food futurologist Dr Morgaine Gaye about her trend forecasting that supports innovation at global brands like Unilever, Mondelez and Mars. Our conversation is wide-ranging and lively - you’ll hear Morgaine’s rarely-shared predictions for future themes in our food, find out how she became a futurologist, confront what Dr Gaye believes will be an extended period of disruption and unearth newer, clearer connections between fashion, technology, geopolitics and broad societal change.

I hope you enjoy our conversation and take something away that you can apply in your life and in your conversations :)

Please shout with any feedback you have, and if you liked the podcast, do give us a rating - I truly appreciate it.

Onwards!

WM

Links

* Dr Morgaine Gaye - website

* Morgaine Gaye - Instagram

Credits

* Lorne Armstrong of Fathom XP for the introduction

* Ross Breadmore for continued support and ideas

* Lee Rosevere for intro music

Automated transcript

Will McInnes  03:10

I was thinking before this, it would just be brilliant. To get a sense of your story. Like how, how did you get to being a food futurologist? You don't like this question!

Dr Morgaine Gaye  03:25

Oh, goodness, this is the hard. This is the hardest of all questions, really, I think like most people, they end up doing a job that they didn't expect to be doing. And I also believe that the thing that we think about trying to avoid is the thing that we draw to us. And definitely, as a teenager, might you know what this the only subjects I really hated at school was what we used to call home economics, which was sort of cooking and sewing and I really didn't like it at all, and I had some horrible disasters that really, were soul destroying in the cookery class where I ended up with the largest 10 on everybody else got the tins first for the Victoria sponge, I got the I got I got the 10 that was too big. So my Victoria sponge never met in the middle. And it was just like a thin wisp of emptiness in the middle and it was, I mean the whole thing itself must have been less than a centimetre thick. It was a poor link like a pancake. And I didn't even take it home was just horrible. So so those are those sorts of food experiences. And my mother was a butcher and my father was a bodybuilder who a power lifter actually and used to sort of want to bulk up so would be eating baby food has calories back in those days and all of the things that you could do to gain weight so there's a lot of I found mealtimes with the family really stressful. I didn't like it. I was always forced to eat things I didn't want to hear I just food was just for me, not a pleasant space. And I definitely remember thinking that is definitely not a place. I want to go Don't want to be involved in food whatsoever and low and low Here we are. But I do think that really my title food futurologists is a little bit of a red herring because the food part does make people think that I am eating my way around fabulous restaurants in the world or know a lot about cooking or, and really that is the very small end of the wedge of what I do, which is a lot more, I suppose, anthropological or distich trend forecasting. So I'm looking at lots of other things in order to forecast and think about future scenarios. And food is is the biggest part because of course, it underpins our society and the way that we live the way we share. We, we commune, it's cultural, it's religious, it's societal. It's everything that we do. But it's also it is also as I say, it's just dinner. And so it has lots of meanings and it has, in some ways, no meaning at all. So it's So food really is this like I said this small part of it.

Will McInnes  06:03

I love it. Oh this is gonna be such a good conversation. So because as you say food is so universal and it has so much power and and yet at the same time as you brilliantly put it it's just dinner How did you go from that fabulous sort of set up and the wispy Victoria sponge and into the world of trend forecasting and tell us tell us a few, just a little bit of the some of the steps that that or the way that you When did your way to to where you are now.

Dr Morgaine Gaye  06:36

I think, of course when you look back you see the connections we all do. And at school even during this time of my appalling cooking, I will I was doing things that like school pop psychology age 12 was, I would with my friends, I would say to them for them not to buy sweets and ice cream with their pocket money. Say that just imagine that you don't have these sweets. In fact, if you take this five minutes of your time when you've eaten those sweets, or buy the sweets, eat the sweets as five minutes of your life. Let's condense those five minutes, pretend that you've had those sweets, and then you've saved that money. I wrote, for me, it was like genius. So, I was sort of trying to get my friends to live in a future space. And think about things differently. So so in that way, I was probably slightly doing what I'm doing now and friends now who've sort of seen what I do probably much later on, because I'm not in touch with them have said, Oh, you will like that at school of that's the sort of stuff that you were you were at school, used to wear really weird clothes unlike anybody else. And it wasn't that I was sort of a social outcast. But that possibly I was slightly they used to say you're ahead of the curve. I don't know that for sure. But that's what they were. So that would be what they'd sort of say. So I suppose that somewhere inherently, I had this idea that time is important, and we can, and we, as human beings can think about time in a different way and position ourselves in a different future. And then life moved on. And I guess that after many different trials of things that I thought I would do, because I thought I would be an artist, I didn't want to have a job which would leave me on my own, I wanted something that would connect with people. And I couldn't figure out how to do that in an art form that would also give me a living. So I wasn't very astute at sort of putting those things together. And I think that it really the kind of the icing on the cake of how I became this is a really dear, this is a real terrible cover blow. But my friend who obviously knew that I had these different qualities that's called different qualities at this point, as she was making a progress Which is somewhere Google Hubble somewhere for BBC Worldwide, and it was about the future. And it was called business 2025, which is still the future. There's a it was a long, long time into the future at that point, as opposed to five years. And they needed an extra expert on the show. And on the show, they had some serious sort of older men who for me, I mean, I was at that point in my probably early 30s. And there were men on there who were in their late 50s. And they seemed a lot older than me at that point, I sort of low hairless and things like that. And, and they were these are experts in the future of tech and the future of other things. And she said, I'd like to sit on this panel, here are the six topics. You've got two days to think of a proposition about these six topics into into 2025. And what you what your personal opinion about this future is. And then I went on the show, and they gave me a title and the title was futurology. Just so that was the beginning of that, really is that she gave me a title. And I thought, okay, I can I can do that. And I held my own against these guys. And I just thought, well, maybe I couldn't I can do this. I don't know. That's sort of it. Rather,

Will McInnes  10:17

it's a great, it's a great story. And I'm sure there's so much more. But it's wonderful. Thank you for sharing that and to hear, to hear from, from those early days at school that you are always a bit of a future gazer and seeing the world slightly differently and, and trying to get people around you to put themselves somewhere else.

Dr Morgaine Gaye  10:38

Yeah, I mean, just trying to trying to think I think for me, it was about thinking about things. That was General and then my PhD was about thinking about things and how things connect. And I think that was just a setup really for doing what I do. I'm connecting lots of things. My my, the most important thing about what I do is to challenge people's thinking I'd open their minds and then it's up to them what they do with that knowledge really.

Will McInnes  11:04

And tell us about your PhD, what what was the PhD on or about

Dr Morgaine Gaye  11:11

the, the idea of the PhD was looking at the way things connect, and it started off sort of trying to be in the realm of quantum mechanics, but that was a little bit difficult. So then it moved into a philosophical place where I was connecting seemingly random things. Number Number in nature, basically, what is the foundation of our existence? And how can we connect to that and how can we connect that to lots of perhaps unrelated things, and then create a, a map for, for existence and connection,

Will McInnes  11:50

and so forth? Amazing.

Dr Morgaine Gaye  11:52

So so it was it was, it was, for me life changing and the stuff that I learned, I didn't write it all because what I learned the really the main thing I learned is how to get a PhD. And I think maybe a lot of people who do a PhD, figure that out, it's not really about the definitely not about the learning, it's about how you communicate the learning. So the second if you did a second PhD would take half the time, because you'd realise what is it that they want? And how can I deliver that and I sort of faffing around learning interesting things for myself way too long, and eventually got a PhD out of it.

Will McInnes  12:26

So the story builds and so in your PhD, although the bulk of it, as you put it was about learning how to communicate the PhD or the learning, learning how to communicate the learning. The essence of it was about again, about connection. So it sounds like it sounds like core to your work is is Connecting, Connecting ideas, connecting things, challenging people by connecting their brains to an alternative future.

Dr Morgaine Gaye  12:55

Yes, I think I think connection probably is the root of everything that I do. Because I'm seeing what everybody else sees I'm, but I'm almost like that game where you're turning over those cards and you're trying to match, match the ball with the bicycle or the umbrella and then you turn them back and you try to match the pair. That's really what I'm doing all the time. I'm holding things in this Rolodex of mind and waiting to see a match and think, oh, that's really interesting, because that thing in close connects with this thing in food. And that to me relates to something that the government said about a new something or other in the future of linking things and trying to make sense of them trying to develop a premise and then prove a future scenario.

Will McInnes  13:40

Now you are a food futurologist What wouldn't he us? Yes. Officially, official, official food futurologist approved. I'm hoping our listeners don't even know that that's a thing. And now they're starting to think oh, yeah, of course. It's a thing and I would love them to get a glimpse. into the you know what, what does a brief look like? Or what what might what projects have you worked on that they might have devoured? Or you know, what, what can you help us understand about that work?

Dr Morgaine Gaye  14:11

So it typically, it's, gosh, it feeds into many areas of what people do eat, drink, experience some because sometimes it'll be in the media. So of course, we're being fed, which is a perfect word really. We're being fed information. We're being fed food we're being we're, were in taking all of this, this future where we are, we're inhaling the future all the time. And so it's what we read. It's what we see. It's what we we connect with other people on the internet. It's our aspirations. It's how we speak to other people about what we're up to. It's like, Oh, I'm dehydrating my own salmon in the airing cupboard or whatever it is, you know. So people are wanting to be an experience the next new thing and food is a great vehicle for that. because it enables people to show status. So you only have to go around a supermarket and have a look what somebody else has got in their trolley. And it's already easy to make a judgement like value meal for one, you know, that kind of thing. So, so we know we're doing that all the time with food so, so my work can be with a brand who typically wants to reinvent their brand. So they might have a really well known food product that they have been making for decades that's really popular, but they realise that they want to do something new or it needs innovation, it needs updating. So I'll do a trend briefing around that particular area. So for example, what could happen for Cadbury in children's snacking, so I will do a children's snacking trend briefing which will be one hour in the future of children snacking. And then we might either innovate some new products, or we might take a product that already exists within their product portfolio and revamp it and this this this Sort of quick word of revamping takes about three years. So from the complete innovation, ideation, packaging, branding, all of the positioning the massive checks and balances on everything from health and food safety to, to where this will be positioned. And just every single thing about the product. It's very in depth food, unlike fashion fashion, which can be turned around in six weeks. Food is a minimum of 18 months.

Will McInnes  16:27

Make sense? So let's go to perhaps the more fun place than what is actually genuinely exciting to you, at the moment,

Dr Morgaine Gaye  16:38

who so many. I mean, I think the world is exciting at the moment. I think it's just an incredible time that we are on this planet at this time. And I sort of believe that everyone who's alive right now, obviously has some kind of capability to process change and be able to be a witness to This cataclysmic times I mean, we are for I think, 4000 years we have been living in this time of having and accumulating, and this whole, the whole consciousness of humanity has been about having. And we're moving into knowing, and knowing on a much bigger scale, so not just brain knowledge and AI, but also self knowing, human knowing, interconnected knowing of our species and of the world species. So it's, it's, it's so exciting. So I'm excited about that. But as part of that, the ingredients I would say that are exciting or interesting to me as water, I think that we're going to understand what's in our water supply, how we can manipulate water in a better way, how we can live with water in a better way and understand water. And that goes from of course, all the pollution in the ocean, to write down to tap water, how we can how we're using that What's the stuff we shower in? What are the chemicals that we're using filtration systems, the way that what water wants to be stored, it doesn't want to be stored in linear shapes it wants to be stored in sort of vortex of, of inverted x shapes really is the perfect shape for water. So we'll understand all of that. So I think like waters really interesting. I think air is just surprisingly the, of course, right now we're much more focused on the airway, breathing and how it's contaminated. But air is a future ingredient, or a present future ingredient is really where the money is because it's free, but it matters. And it fully Mises and it gives texture and texture is the thing really, that divides our preferences. So we often think that we don't like things because of the taste, but often for us, the defining thing that stops us liking something is texture, and that can be cultural. So for the, for example, that the Chinese Chinese law tend to like slimy texture. They're slimy, that's good. Whereas if you were British, you might think slimy, that's not good. So, so air is a great texturizer. And it will change our ability to take a food that we might not like because it's slimy, like avocado, and profit with air, and then we've got crunchy avocado bites. So we ended up being able to take something we don't like, but also volumize something so we fill a bag for cheaper, we can fill a bag, you know, with a couple of bits of avocado, because we've popped it with there. So I think those those ingredients are exciting. I think there's some really fun stuff happening in in 3d printing where we can make something that looks like Lego sushi out of sushi ingredients. So it looks like a digital image of sushi. But it's real. It's just messes with your mind in terms of playfulness. I think there's a lot of play in that 3d printing space. So I'd say those those things are

Will McInnes  20:00

fun, really interesting, I would never have thought of 3d printing in the context of food and water and air elements, you know, fundamentals that we that we take for granted.

Dr Morgaine Gaye  20:14

And the fundamentals right now are where our focuses because we are we really becoming much more concerned and connected with, with earth with rewilding with nature with wanting to connect with that. One of the things I predict, which I think is starting to happen now is people wanting to go of cities, people will move, there'll be an exodus from as opposed to cities, because people are realising that that connection with nature is so so key and so essential, and it's what people have reconnected to during lockdown, I think, and it's become a big part of people's conversations and focus. So that's definitely part of our future future motifs, patterns, interests. It's such as reconnecting with nature. So

Will McInnes  21:04

how does that come to life? How would you? How do you see that panning out? You mentioned leaving cities which I've seen a couple of examples of contacts of mine professionally, moving away and friends speculating that houses will be chosen more on you know, less on the exact location and proximity to a city and more on how is their space to work from home and can I get out and do the things I want to do mountain biking or whatever it happens to be? And you mentioned fashion motifs patterns like how does this return to nature come alive in your mind?

Dr Morgaine Gaye  21:42

in all our because food doesn't exist in a vacuum so that we are looking at everything across casually so homes, interiors, fashion, surface textures, every single thing that we exist within? Is that real expressing expressing the earth it's a bye failure. It's it's trying to connect inside and outside so that we will want much more of an integrated outside space inside space. Inside growing countertop growing, outside living, I think there's been a massive surge in garden furniture and garden games or whatever that might mean sort of hot tubs and trampolines and all of that. We're already seeing it. And it's just this this sense that we, we are, I think we up until now we've spent a long time feeling like humans and nature as though we are separate from nature. And I think that what we're going towards is this connection between humans as nature and it will make a massive difference. So these patterns will be patterns of tree barks, things made from tree bark materials made from bark, we will be like you know, it will feel like leather, but lots of use of waste materials way more so that we take orange peel and we can make a beautiful From it or we take used bamboo and we can make packaging from that will take mushrooms and it will be the will we have the mushroom colours but we'll have something that has maybe a mushroom motif and also we'll be drinking more mushroom tea and then we'll be using mushroom for packaging and building materials so that we see food and nature becoming integrated every element of our life

Will McInnes  23:25

so enjoyable hearing you talk and and my signups as a firing I'm seeing things and it's exciting me about how this world how this world changes before us and I agree with you like it's such an interesting time to be alive. We are we are witnessing such strange or full beautiful, crazy. I don't know is it disruption is it phase changes are the chickens coming home to Bruce, it feels incredible. And I guess making sense of it is making sense of it. It's pretty hard, but making or do you do not find it hard to make sense of all of this?

Dr Morgaine Gaye  24:12

For me, I was talking about this yesterday, actually to a couple of friends that for the last eight years, my job has been to map the disruption trend. So for me, it's been definitely happening since 2012, the collapse of things that we have held esteemed, or that we could just trust and believe. So whether that was no and it's it turns out in sex sex scandals, its horsemeat scandal, it's everything that it's almost like I always think of it almost like the Wizard of Oz, and you pull back the curtain and it's a little old man operating it all. It's been like that. And we've been leading up to this time, and I use the example which I think was in 2012, where there was the volcano eruption in Iceland. And if you remember that you remember that with In a week, people were fighting for bread on the shelves at the supermarket. There was barely anything left. And that really was a signal right then that we almost had a preview. I think that was very much a preview of what was to come like, here we are. With one week without flights coming in. And look at the state of us. We've already turned into an anon community minded, unpleasant human beings fighting for more than we need. And we actually don't even have our needs met. Suddenly, the basic needs were taken away within a week of there being a problem with the flight. So that was a preview, but we just because we're human, we go, Oh, yeah, we'll just get back to normal it'll be fine. And then we get the big stick, you know, get the same again, but bigger and we get the same again and bigger until we listen. And here we are. And the big stick was always for me. 2020 I don't think it's any surprise. It's 2020 vision. I just think 2020 This is when we actually see it all. And when you say that, you know the chickens come home to roost. Okay. This is a This is really a global experience of what it looks like when things fall apart. Who are we? How do we behave? What's our capacity to change? And, and so this whole time the last the last eight years have been in this disruption phase. And then the almost the massive breakdown and the the global life changing events that affect everybody are 2022 2021. So my predictions, this was always coming. And that's why, as I said, there's a an example of me speaking about a year and a half ago where I'm showing masks and people in hazmat suits and talking about how the air will be very valuable and it will be concerned about these things about our safety and protection will be the biggest conversation how do we protect ourselves, how to protect the environment, excuse me, and, and so that this was always is going to come. And of course straight out of the gate 2020 we had the fires the bush fires Australia which have killed species and decimated massive part of Australian wildlife. And then and then the next thing we've got COVID and then we've got the Black Lives Matter, which really, you know, of course, there's been horrible deaths in custody and, and, and in the past and treatment of people of colour, but nothing's really shaken things like now. It's almost like now when things get shaken. It's on a whole nother level. And that's what we're going to see on everything. And we're in July. We're halfway through the year. We've already had a big year and this is I say to people don't think Oh, well. Good. We've got that out the way now we can just get back to the new normal No, forget that. Because there's a next thing coming and the next thing and the next thing and the next thing until we it's like Armageddon we need to be we the ashes will be what we pick up and we say right what are we actually left with what are we left with as a as a people as a potential? And what's good and what can be retrieved? And what can we recreate and co create to go forward into a better space because we've done a pretty shitty shitload of things up until now we've done some amazing things of course we have, but we've got lost and things have got lost. And, and it's not really about a this is not it's not my my job to make people feel like bad or, or this is what you should be doing because it's not my it's not necessarily about my opinion, my opinion doesn't really matter. It's this is what's happening. This is what will happen. And these are and the reasons why these things will happen and what I show for my job, and it's just that our focus will completely shift and it's shifting. And this is the beginning of that shift.

Will McInnes  28:50

I find it so compelling when you when you hit that stride, it's it's it's it makes a lot of sense. What what Where do we go next, then what, in divisions that you've outlined and that you've, you know, been recorded on camera talking about? If If it's not going to relent yet? What does are there phases or shifts in the future? Or should I just strap in? Order extra toilet roll, get my well sharpen my Hunter, like prepare.

Dr Morgaine Gaye  29:28

I think preparedness actually, all that all the trends that I would speak about what all towards 2020 really the thing was, this is this is to 2020 let's get to 2020. This is going to be our focus. For me now, what I'm looking at my trends that I've been working on during lockdown have been what happens from where are we from 2021 to 2027 28? What what's that look like? And actually, I have Oh, did you hear that? Did you hear that?

Will McInnes  29:57

Was that a train? Yeah, yeah. Talking to a food futurologists chewing in the background. I know

Dr Morgaine Gaye  30:04

and this is London in the future or the past, I don't know, I just felt like I went to the railway children for a moment. So I've got seven big sort of category of trends for the future. And in the first one, which I am calling survival, because this is going to be a big part of things. One of the sub trends in that is preparedness. And so exactly the things that you mentioned, are key. It's for people to understand, and people will be doing this naturally. Absolutely. They'll be doing this about what it is that they need to be prepared. It's almost like a self contained potential. Do they do they have a food source? Do they have a way that if thing if we had locked down again, How different would it be for them? because they'd have a different preparation? Could they work from home? Of course they could, because that's set up now. What other things would they have in place? What is that network? I mean, one of the things that I do talked about in the past, for this time and going forward would be the value of our social network. Because that will be and has been really for lots of people their Lifeline during this lockdown. It's been people's real lifeline. I mean for some people to get grocery shopping done. It's been that it's been their lifeline. And that's just you know, that that's one example. Of course, there's loads of examples because of mental health, our wellness, our holistic wellness, I'll give you some sort of top line, things about the future trends, just words really, that I look at So, so touch lists, what touchless society will be, preparedness, the home as a sanctuary, soothing, self soothing, restorative setting, how do we restore and pause the instinct, what how we understand our natural instinct. There's something about wandering because we're moving into this age of uncertainty. So that being anchored might To not be what people choose going forward, because their investment in stuff will be less, less interesting, less focused. And for them, it will be about the freedom and the quality of themselves of their life. I talked about eco futurism. So at which I mentioned the rewilding transformation, we're going to see a lot of things in that sort of trace mysticism type space, which we haven't seen in the mainstream before. So these internal mechanisms and this idea of wonder, so that a little bit like childlike wonder at things in nature and things that we can't see what about those things that we can't see and understanding, understanding that more humanity a massive focus on humanity, about feeling good and belonging and sharing and what that starts to look like? These are real top line by the way, and then what I would like to call the fundamentals as a mean by that is the fun In the in the Playhouse, so it's the fundamentals in the Playhouse. We're going to want to go to these this idea of texture and comfort. We want comfort, and we want to feel comforted. And we want to feel joy and play. And we're going to go towards that. So on the one hand, we're going into this very minimal essentialism. Natural, pared down minimal place. And on the flip side of that, it's going to be, it's going to be fancy dress and, and fun, and it's going to include nostalgia, because that gives us comfort. And there's going to be a lot of ideas of this fluffy, puffy, sort of marshmallowy soft hug machines, and there will be hug machines, because some people will be worried about other people touching us, you know, so we have to have our own personal hug, hug system. There'd be all sorts of fun for all sorts of fun things.

Will McInnes  34:00

Wow, a hug machine.

Dr Morgaine Gaye  34:04

Would you like would you like one john?

Will McInnes  34:11

This is this is incredible and such so enjoyable to listen to you and to think about all of this. My brain is my brain is fizzing. I have agency to indulge in a lot of this to be more prepared to I was lucky to be able to work from home. What what? What does it look like? In your view for the for the less privilege,

Dr Morgaine Gaye  34:36

my job isn't really necessarily to see how it's going to be for different parts of the society because really, when I give these top lines that I'm drilling down into possibly real examples of what that looks like, I suppose we're looking at an aesthetic and an aspiration for everyone. So rather than the aspiration being, Oh, I'd like a new car and a new watch. The aspiration will be The things I talked about. So the good, the good news for people who are less fortunate to have a lower income or less mobility is that nature for them is free, pretty much so that people can get to a green space, they can grow a plant in their home, that there are some very simple things that don't cost the money of the previous aspirations. So in some level, that's a great thing, in terms of working from home, and that not being a possibility, obviously, one of the things that happens when we're going through a massive disruption as we are now is that things get extremely difficult, which is why there is civil unrest, which is why there is social uprising, which for for different people for different reasons, that people's people's status quo, people's fundamentals are shifted. And it's very frightening for a lot of people for very different reasons for many different people. I mean, even people with money can be very frightened by these. It's just, it's challenging. It's challenging for everyone for different reasons. But one of the things that we are doing and that we will be doing, we already seen it, we are celebrating, we're celebrating cleaners. And we've set people who've never been celebrated the invisible people who are supporting society, the binmen. And suddenly, they're, you know, they're getting a shout out every day, or every week, which they never have before. And celebrities are getting less fake, like less time, less focus, as we focus our attention on key workers. And so already we're seeing a rise in that balance because our future focus will be on kindness. And that's how we're going to value people in our culture. It's about the work they do so the unsung heroes for want of a better phrase Really?

Will McInnes  36:53

Yeah, and so those people will definitely for the first time, get some airtime and get some get be seen wonderful. We haven't touched on do you think about space? You know, like Ilan Musk is launching rockets. And it sounds actually like your work is your processes leading you much more to Earth than to space,

Dr Morgaine Gaye  37:12

I suppose I'm looking at trends which, which have actually incorporated space in the past, some of the trends have been much more about the notions of space, it's funny about about space and our notion of space, which are not the same thing. So that we often think of, we often think of space as silver. And we think it's shiny, and we have ideas of what space is, and so we incorporate that. So, and we had a whole phase of that in the 60s, when we had lots of things that were to do with space, but we were singing about space. We had the whole us space missions and first man on the moon, everything was really focused and it had a real look. And so space has a look for us has an aesthetic really, and we have been actually have we had a little bit of that. A few years ago, but but I suppose I've looked at I've thought about space in different ways in terms of, really, in this future when we're talking about knowing. One of the things really is if we're talking about war in the future, it's the war of knowledge. It's the war of knowing. And it's the space wars. Because that's really what the fight is, for now, people have given up with trying to put a flag in a country and say, you know, this bit of land is mine. And what they want to do is say, This planet is mine. This bit of this, this platform that's floating around whichever planet is ours, this are we our country on that bit of space. And so I think really, that's space was even thinking about the things like flying drones, and who owns that space, who owns the airspace. I think that there's going to be a lot of conversation about that. But I'm not sure that our focus in the next few years will be that, of course it's happening, but it's not happening to the average person and I don't think it's the person's thought process or focus, where we are trying to get this earth sorted. Because if we don't sort this earth and most people can be saying to get me a ticket out of here,

Will McInnes  39:09

you're right. I do think of spaces silver and shiny. That's that's, that's fine.

Dr Morgaine Gaye  39:15

There's a wonderful perfumier in New York who's developed a fragrance called space. Moondust. Oh my goodness. And it smells like Oh, it smells like it smells like moon dust. I mean, you think yeah, that's what that's what the moon smells like. It's great. It's really great. I mean, to go and smell it.

Will McInnes  39:34

Love it. And what's your favourite meal?

Dr Morgaine Gaye  39:38

Oh, I'm so rubbish at things like this. I'm I really like I'm sorry. I really like seaweed. Big fantasy weed. Big fantasy with seaweed. I do quite a lot of big plays seaweed. Yeah, I do. I like Japanese food a lot. I like salads a lot. I like variety. So I mean, like tap Because as you get a little bit of everything rather than a big dinner, I don't like a big dinner. And I don't like anything that's got this, which I've called wet food, which apparently is a very British thing with food because I had a comedian do is the first time a few weeks ago had this amazing South African comedian say that one of the things that he noticed about the UK was that everything was wet. Because he was like I heard like it said, you know, baked beans. Yeah, that sounds really good like beans that have been baked in and then they come in it's like wet sauce. Like, like yeah, then you said what's wrong with the biscuit and then they dip it in their tea to make it wet? Why would you do that? The best thing about biscuit is crispy. And he went through all of the list of wet things. I think I am totally on there. I hate gravy, wet things. Slight slippery. All of the wet foods. Yeah. So I'm not a fan of the wet food, food, dry food, dry food.

Will McInnes  40:47

Like dog biscuits. You know that kind of. Okay. And one other gimmicky question before we before we start to come to a close. What will I be eating in two or three years second, he sighing What will I be eating in two or three years time that I'm not eating right now? Something something new.

Dr Morgaine Gaye  41:06

I don't fully know what you're eating now. But will you eat a lot of wet food? Okay, right, you'll be a lot of wet food probably, but probably more more aerated food that I talked about. So definitely food with their, I would imagine that you'll be eating eating way more vegan plant based stuff, for sure. Because all of those big brands are doing that and part of a project with doing some of that stuff so that for sure way more options in the non meat meats in the non egg eggs and the non milk milks that don't GTS, all of that. So I think lots of that stuff, and possibly some fun, some fun digitally, digitally produced foods and I think a lot of a lot of really cool stuff that they can do using digital printing with waste material. So waste food that's recreated into shapes that makes it not look like slop makes it look like something that's, that's fun. So think a little bit of that perhaps by three years to three years. Oh, well edible edible packaging,

Will McInnes  42:11

more edible packaging, more edible packaging, more edible packaging. Yeah. Love it. If I was to interview someone else about a different topic, what's a topic that's outside of your domain or there your domain is very broad because you're synthesising lots, so it could be within, but what? What's the topic that you are finding really riveting? And do you think that people would be surprised to hear about, like, what's changing in the world that people underestimate?

Dr Morgaine Gaye  42:39

So I think what's, oh, gosh, I think there's a couple of areas that are on the edge of my understanding, just because I look at it but I don't know enough about it. One is materials. So material scientists are doing phenomenal, amazing things where you have this tiny little thin jacket which could be like this. It's super thin. You can scrunch it down. into a ball, and you can wear it to go skiing. And it's completely it's just, it's the same as a proper ski jacket, or that you have materials that can self repair themselves. Or that said that if you cut it, it repairs itself. Wow, or what wild stuff, all of the different carbon fibre material. So I think a material scientist, amazing all sorts of cool stuff happening there. And in the realm of architecture, some really exciting things happening with using wind power and and water power as a as a way to to power buildings and all the different growing spaces that being integrated into new structures. So I think those two areas are

Will McInnes  43:46

cool. Those are very cool. Really, really cool. Where can listeners follow Dr. Morgan gay, where where should we point people to research you further keep up to date with your interesting stuff?

Dr Morgaine Gaye  43:58

Not much. I'm on Instagram. Which is just Morgan gay calm, which is more gay, not calm. And my my website is just Morgan gay calm and there's some videos on there about different stuff that I've done,

Will McInnes  44:09

where we're really privileged and I've definitely felt that today I've really, really enjoyed listening to you and speaking with you more.

Dr Morgaine Gaye  44:16

Thank you so much.

Will McInnes  44:21

So there it is. Episode Three, the future of food. I hope you got some new perspectives on the world we live in from Dr. Morgaine Gaye. I know I really did.

In this episode, I talk to respected synthetic artist Eric Drass - who you may know as Shardcore - about his work playing with neural networks, Deep Fake, bots and, underneath it all, the increasingly pressing question of how we can know what is true and what is not in the mediated, boundless, shape-shifting digital world we occupy.

Eric is an artist who makes work in a range of media, from painting through to generative experiments which live on the net. Some of his favourite themes are identity, consciousness, the philosophical ramifications of artificial intelligence, big data and the relationship between humans and machines. Sometimes this work is political, frequently it is playful, often it is provocative or transgressive in some way. His works are often reported and cited online (see BoingBoing, Imperica).

I hope you gain a new perspective from our conversation - art and artists like Eric exist to prod and provoke us to look at the world differently, and listening to him did just that for me.

Please let me know any and all of your feedback, share this podcast and - if you fancy it - leave us a glowing review on Apple Podcasts :)

Onwards!

WM

Links

* http://shardcore.org

* @erocdrahs

* Latest major work (NSFW): http://themachinegaze.com

Credits

* Anna Carlson, Louis McInnes and Georgia Tregear for first listens

* Mark Pinsent, Alison Goldsworthy and Leo Ryan for helpful critical feedback on Episode 1

* Lee Rosevere for intro music