Djamil and Rudy join Rob Wallace, author of Big Farms Make Big Flu: Dispatches on Influenza, Agribusiness, and the Nature of Science, and Dead Epidemiologists: On the Origins of COVID-19, for a discussion on how capitalism produces mass pandemics through the destruction and creation of new ecologies. We discuss how humans 'fit' in nature, and how capitalism destroys natural barriers that prevent pandemics and creates harmful new ecologies. We also talk about what types of regulatory mechanisms are needed to prevent the mass spread of diseases. We finish off by discussing how the left should relate to topics such as the hypothesis of laboratory origins for Covid, vaccine skepticism and organizations like the CDC and the WHO.