If you’re interested in this episode, you may also like ‘Referendum plan revealed’: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m002gfsl

John Swinney’s strategy for holding an independence referendum has been backed by party members at the SNP conference in Aberdeen.

Martin and Natalie discuss why the First Minister has set the bar so high while Newscast’s Chris Mason sums up the mood within the major parties as the conference season concludes.

And Martin explains why he'd rather not have the trauma of Scotland qualifying for the 2026 World Cup.

Scotcast is the BBC’s Scottish news podcast, with Martin Geissler, Natalie Higgins and Laura Miller.

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