In this rebroadcast from Season 1, we explore how the streaming era has changed music — not just for the people who make it, but also for us as listeners.

For indie musicians like Julianna Zachariou, Spotify has made music more accessible than ever — but at a cost. With payouts that amount to less than a penny per stream, she's had to turn to crowdfunding and direct fan support to fund her projects. She opens up about the personal toll these struggles take and how she's found ways to stay true to her craft while facing these challenges.

"On my bad days, I wake up and think, 'I've already done the best I can do. This is the most people I'll ever reach, and I'm just sinking into anonymity,'" Julianna said, reflecting on an older song that has reached more than 5 million streams.

"But on my better days, I'm grateful for it. I recognize that it was a different time. Spotify's kind of a monster now. There's no room for 'if it's good enough, it'll find its way.' It's just not a thing right now. It's a trap to let metrics determine that you're doing something better or worse than you were in the past," she said.

Watch: Julianna Zachariou performs "Dreamer, Dreamer" live at KPBS' studio

In this episode, we break down Spotify's business model, the economics of streaming and what it really takes to sustain a career without major-label backing. Julianna's story is a powerful reminder of the need for change in the industry and how we can all play a role in supporting the artists who enrich our lives.

Guests:

• Julianna Zachariou, musician
• Liz Pelly, journalist and author of "Mood Machine: The Rise of Spotify and the Costs of the Perfect Playlist"

Julianna Zachariou Track List:

• "church st."
• "Subway Song"
• "Hero of Your Heart"
• "Dreamer, Dreamer"

Watch: Julianna Zachariou performs "Becky" live at KPBS' studio

Julianna Zachariou's musical influences:

• The Commodores
• Earth Wind and Fire
• Toto
• Alison Krauss
• Bonnie Raitt
• The Beatles
• The Rolling Stones
• Led Zeppelin
• The Who
• Taylor Swift
• Kelly Clarkson, "American Idol"

Photos: See portraits of Julianna Zachariou and a few snaps of her and Josh Flowers making music together

Mentioned in this episode:

• Josh Flowers, songwriter and musical collaborator
• The D Train | NYC subway line that runs from the Bronx to Brooklyn
• United Musicians and Allied Workers (UMAW) | A grassroots union fighting for fairness in music, from streaming transparency to artist pay equity
• H.R.7763 - Living Wage for Musicians Act of 2024 | 2024 bill introduced by Reps. Rashida Tlaib and Jamaal Bowman, backed by UMAW, pushing for a penny-per-stream payout to make streaming fairer for working artists
• Soda Bar | North Park dive for intimate sets, rising indie acts and vibrant local energy
• Previous GoFundMes: Help Fund Julianna's Next Record and Help Julianna Make Music

Sources:

• "Simulating the emergence of superstar firms: The role of luck vs talent" (A.E. Biondo, A. Pluchino, R. Zanola, ScienceDirect, 2024)
• "Alan B. Krueger | Rockonomics: 7 Key Economic Lessons" (John Murray Books, 2019)
• "How Music Streaming Platforms Calculate Payouts Per Stream 2025" (Royalty Exchange, 2025)
• "The Spotify conspiracy theories about 'Espresso,' explained" (Rebecca Jennings, Vox, 2024)
• "Loud and Clear": 2024 Spotify Annual Music Economics Report (Spotify, 2025)
• "Tlaib Introduces Living Wage for Musicians Act" (Office of Congresswoman Rashida Tlaib, March 2024)
• "Data Shows 90 Percent of Streams Go to the Top 1 Percent of Artists" (Emily Blake, Rolling Stone, Sept. 2020)
• "A Brief History of American Payola" (Kim Kelly, Vice, 2016)
• "Mood Machine: The Rise of Spotify and the Costs of the Perfect Playlist" (Liz Pelly, Atria/One Signal Publishers, 2024)

"The Ghosts in the Machine" (Liz Pelly, Harper's Magazine/book excerpt, 2025)