In this episode, Nick speaks with Renee Zukin about her journey, the role of technology in creativity, and the challenges of adult friendships. They discuss the importance of embracing vulnerability, the tools for self-mastery, and the significance of celebrating small wins as well as finding small ways to be brave every day.

What to listen for:

“How can I show up for myself, my people in the microcosm of my world so that it becomes reflected and ripples out into the macrocosm?”

“One of the reasons why life can be so hard is because we’re so trained to ignore our innate signals.”

About Renee Zukin

Renee is an author, educator, coach, and mental health advocate doing the inner work to see outer change. She has more than 20 years of experience in education, writing, and entrepreneurship, and has studied multiple psychological and healing modalities that have sustained her and helped support her students and clients alike. She is passionate about cultivating a safe space for others to use the written word and organizational structures as tools for self-transformation and empowerment. Renee is also the author of the new book, Every Day, I’m Brave: Cultivating Resilience to Gain Freedom from Fear (Wonderwell Press, 2025).

Resources:

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Your Friends at “The Mindset & Self-Mastery Show”

Nick McGowan (00:01.464)
Hello and welcome to the Mindset and Self Mastery Show. I’m your host Nick McGowan. Today on the show we have Renee Zukin. Renee, how you doing today?

Renee Zukin (00:11.06)
I’m doing fantastic, Nick, so excited to be here.

Nick McGowan (00:14.188)
Yeah, I’m excited too. I think it’s going to be great. Why don’t you get us started. Tell us what you do for a living and what’s one thing most people don’t know about you that’s maybe a little odd or bizarre.

Renee Zukin (00:22.478)
Love this question. Well, I’m a writer. I’m an educator. Currently, I coach entrepreneurs in digital online marketing, which is a lot of fun. And one thing that most people don’t know about me, I actually recorded an album back in 2011.

Yes, yes. It was my first foray into songwriting and the band I had curated was called Collectible Boys. it started out as a poetry and essay writing project and it turned into an album. So, you you never know where the spirit’s going to take you.

Nick McGowan (01:08.408)
Nice.

Nick McGowan (01:15.02)
Yeah, literally. that’s cool. mean, as a musician, I’ve already told you, now I have loads of questions about what kind of music, where did you record, and how did you find the studio musicians, and what did you play, and what did you not play, and what is it all about, you know? So feel free to share any of that if you’d like.

Renee Zukin (01:21.518)
Mm-hmm.

Renee Zukin (01:25.518)
Yeah, yeah, it was a lot of fun. started out just really wanting to play music and I did need to get musicians to actually help me curate the music underneath because for me, I was writing lyrics and I had melodies and you know, I only have a few years of piano lessons as a kid under my belt. So I knew I needed the

the heavy hitters to come in and help create it underneath. And I did, I collected some amazing local musicians who’ve played in multiple bands and knew what they were doing. And we played out for a couple of years and I was like, we need to record this. And we did it in one weekend. So it was definitely a whirlwind and a lot of fun.

Nick McGowan (02:12.584)
Thanks

Nick McGowan (02:19.576)
And I love that sort of stuff. And especially like people listen to albums or they’ll listen to a new song that comes out. You might think like, this is great. And these people just keep putting these things out like any bands that put out new albums. It’s like, but we have no idea the amount of time and effort and energy that every single one of them put into figuring out what do we do? How do we do it? And I think oftentimes people forget about the sometimes the fifth or sixth member of the band.

producer and the one who’s actually recording everything. And I said this to you before we started even recording this, that sometimes the answers that will come out of that initial question will kind of alter the way that the conversations go. And I think this may be one of those situations. Like as a musician, I’ve been having conversations with people recently that have been using AI and

Renee Zukin (02:49.646)
Right? Yeah.

Renee Zukin (03:03.516)
Yeah.

Renee Zukin (03:11.266)
Mmm.

Nick McGowan (03:13.309)
if you, somebody who has a few years of piano lessons from X amount of years ago, and you have ideas and some melodies and you go, well, I want the drums to sound like, whatever, like you just make noises. Like you can’t really do that. guess, well, Timbaland made a whole career out of making noises and putting in the records, but that’s one person.

Renee Zukin (03:26.168)
Right.

Renee Zukin (03:30.478)
Yeah

Nick McGowan (03:36.329)
I think it’s interesting how there’s technology that helps us with things but can also really hinder us. I have a good friend of mine who writes music constantly, plays acoustic, sings, and he can mess around on some other instruments, but his main thing is like first second position of acoustic, singer-songwriter type stuff, and using AI at times to help with a backing band. Like I can understand going that direction because the resource is there, but I

Renee Zukin (03:41.784)
Mm-hmm.

Renee Zukin (04:05.666)
Mm-hmm.

Nick McGowan (04:06.184)
I that also can hurt us from being creative and stretching those muscles and being more brave in the confusing things. Like you sit down on the piano and go, I’m fucking fine, middle C, K, triad, you know, like instead of going, well, here, this is the thing I want. And as somebody who, like you didn’t have AI in 2011.

Renee Zukin (04:11.317)
and

Renee Zukin (04:17.704)
Yeah.

Renee Zukin (04:29.55)
No I didn’t.

Nick McGowan (04:31.424)
you had to find people to actually be musicians with you, work through that stuff, what are your thoughts, what are your feelings with that sort of stuff?

Renee Zukin (04:35.458)
Mm-hmm.

This is great. I because I think it’s similar to also to writing in general. Obviously we can use. Yeah. And I think what you’re speaking to is this opportunity for our own creativity to allow us to learn and grow like when we get stuck. Okay. So I, you know, my skills and here I want to play around, but also the

Nick McGowan (04:45.94)
Yeah, big time.

Renee Zukin (05:05.996)
opportunity to connect with other people who do have those skills and have the conversations and get to really play and modify and modulate music and the piece in different ways. And I think actually you could even say this with all kinds of art. Like I am not like, I’m a firm believer that AI and its ability to help us create can

save us a lot of time, save us a lot of energy. There’s ways in which it’s a great tool to have and there’s ways in which we can teach it how to be a better AI partner. So I’m definitely all in and playing the game and I think that we also have to balance that out with our own boredom, our own limits.

our ability to get creative, to connect with other people and have a, you know, more of a co-creation. So I’m definitely not an either or, but I certainly lean towards, you know, the authentic human experience can create something that a machine cannot.

Nick McGowan (06:23.318)
Sure. Well, so I think most of the people listening to this podcast are probably around our age. Like, I’m gonna say, looking specifically at the demographic numbers that I have, it’s about 25 to 55, but it’s heavier in the 35 to 45 range.

I have conversations with people I haven’t said to you. I like, I’ve got four or five friends at this point. That’s about true that like I consistently have a relationship with and I work on those outside of my partner and you know, things like that. as we get older and that friend that I was talking to, he’s like, well, it’s hard because some of these people around here, even in the scene are working on their own things or they have kids and they have this and they have that. And it’s like when you think back to high school, you could go, hey, you want to start a band? I don’t know. Fuck around and find out. Let’s do it.

Renee Zukin (06:46.062)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Renee Zukin (07:09.838)
Right. Yeah.

Nick McGowan (07:11.367)
or even in your early 20s. Like, you put the drink down for a minute? Let’s pick up an instrument. Sure. Can I do both? Or whatever. And as you get older, it can be more difficult to find friends or people you connect with or whatever. I wonder if then people start to look at like, well, how do I use these pieces, these resources that can help me do these things, but also help me kind of hide away. Almost like how people can be really tough behind a screen. You can talk shit on social

Renee Zukin (07:15.872)
Right. Right.

Renee Zukin (07:26.968)
Absolutely.

Renee Zukin (07:32.728)
Mm.

Renee Zukin (07:40.718)
Mmm.

Nick McGowan (07:41.323)
media because they’re behind a screen but if they were in front of somebody’s face 95 % of those people wouldn’t say those things you know and it’s like there’s still that 5 % that those fuckers are gonna fuck around to find out yeah so like how do we

Renee Zukin (07:48.63)
Right?

They don’t care. Yeah.

Nick McGowan (07:57.934)
how do we balance that within ourselves but then also ask ourselves the questions of like, well, what am I really most uncomfortable with this? Is it, I don’t know what I’m actually looking for or do I want to find the smaller piece and just thinking from the music lens, you know, and thinking about your book of just the overall concept of being brave in those moments. Like it takes courage and takes you being brave to step out and at least have those conversations, you know.

Renee Zukin (08:18.03)
Thanks

Renee Zukin (08:24.556)
Yeah, absolutely. Well, certainly, you know, finding friends and meeting new people and getting connected is so much harder as an adult. All those things you said are absolutely true. So you have to be really intentional or you have to come together on some kind of project. You know, there has to be something that’s kind of in the mix of of co-creating a reason why you’re getting together.

Nick McGowan (08:42.887)
Yeah.

Renee Zukin (08:52.318)
But the good news is that could be anything. And I think what’s really scary for people and myself included, you know, I have spent a lot of time not going out, not being with people. It’s overwhelming. can be, you you’re not quite sure what to say, what to do, how to be in the world, and it feels kind of uncomfortable. But cultivating that

of just like, okay, I’m gonna be uncomfortable. And you know what? Nine times out of 10, the other person is thinking and feeling the same thing. So like, let’s just show up and be awkward together and we’ll figure it out. which is what I did. I mean, when I was first thinking about making music, I mean, I was in my 30s by that point. And it was something that I did as an adult. had…

Nick McGowan (09:33.075)
Yeah.

Renee Zukin (09:49.998)
By the time I was 30, I had three kids. So I was busy in my 20s, becoming a mother and doing lots of mothering and of course, obviously into my 30s as well. So it was one small step at a time. It was, okay, I’m gonna go out to this bar, because I know the guy’s sister who plays in the band and I’m gonna just sit and watch and oh, I get a connection. And it was like,

yeah, I really love this band and okay, I get to meet these people and we have these conversations. yeah, I’m thinking, you know, I’ve got this one song I’ve been working on. And so it was just this like one little step. If you just go out into the world with one thing, then you see like the cascade of things that can happen from there when you’re willing to take that first step.

Nick McGowan (10:41.971)
beauty of that. That’s life, you know, and it’s such a difficult thing.

Renee Zukin (10:43.022)
Okay.

Nick McGowan (10:49.587)
two hours ago, was talking about some of these things and I’m so self-aware now that self-awareness annoys the piss out of me at times because like you can’t not see the things when you’re fucking self-aware. So you just become more self-aware and it’s like it’s a vicious cycle that you hear these things. Like I was saying earlier, like there’s this thing that I’m going through and some things that I’m like being bad at at first because like you start off pretty rough and you’re trying to figure this stuff out and it sounds like there’s a mumbling douchebag.

like four rooms away, like cursing like a cartoon at me. Just like, you can’t have fun, you can’t do this thing, you can’t do that. And it’s like, who the fuck, where are they? You know, but like you still hear it you feel it. And everybody’s gonna hear and feel that shit. Yeah, and you’re like, what the fuck, out of here. It’s like, no, you piece of shit, you know? And you’re like, whatever. And that’s the, that’s part of the reason why I love this show is to be able to talk about these things, cause it’s like.

Renee Zukin (11:26.446)
Hmm.

Yeah.

It’s here!

Renee Zukin (11:44.43)
Mm-hmm.

Nick McGowan (11:45.499)
No matter what amount of work you’ve done, there’s still stuff that’s gonna come up. We have to be awkward. We have to be bumbling. You have to look silly at times, whatever. Everything’s not gonna be perfect. And part of that is also the beauty of life. Like I think back to people in high school saying, well, my five and my 10 year plan is this thing. And I don’t talk to really any of those people anymore. So I don’t know if any of those five or 10 year plans actually worked out. But every time somebody’s asked me that, I’m like, fuck if I know.

Renee Zukin (11:59.854)
And.

Renee Zukin (12:12.813)
Right.

Nick McGowan (12:15.364)
Like I could come up with an idea, but I can guarantee it’s probably not as great as like what will actually end up happening because you start to make those movements, start to do those things. So with being brave every day, what are those little kind of pro tips and like life hacks that you figured out for you as a person that like I figured out this really works for me to do this in these moments because it helps me with who I am to be able to step out a little bit more.

Renee Zukin (12:21.451)
Right.

We use.

Renee Zukin (12:33.774)
Yes.

Renee Zukin (12:42.074)
Mm. Yeah, you know, I mean, it’s a journey. It’s and it’s constantly evolving. I love, know, that that inner critic voice is alive and well, you know, with all the new challenges that come up. so constantly having to do that dance with the self-doubt, with the anxiety and the fear is definitely some something that I have gotten better at.

Certainly different tools help me, but over the course of 10 to 15 years, I’ve got a lot of different tools in my toolbox now. My go-to still is writing, even if it’s just real quick in my notes app. It’s like I can’t, when I get overwhelmed and kind of.

Nick McGowan (13:27.511)
Thanks.

Renee Zukin (13:33.75)
you know, notice that my thoughts are spinning and I can’t get out of this loop. If I write it out, then it’s outside of me and I have, can look at it, you know? So that’s, mean, that’s the, that’s one of the big ones for me or even, you know, and if you’re somebody who doesn’t really like to write or you don’t have a lot of time, you know, even just finding, whoever that trusted person is to be like, Hey, do you have five minutes? I need to unload this and make sense of it. Like,

Nick McGowan (13:40.987)
Good.

Yeah.

Renee Zukin (14:03.886)
you know, we can’t go through this life alone. and that’s the thing about like depression, anxiety, like it lies to you. It’s like you’re, you’re alone, you’re isolated. Don’t be a burden to other people. Don’t waste you. You you’re just having a pity party. Don’t reach out to that friend. And you know what? Do like that text that you keep like typing and deleting just fricking send it because people want to show up for their people. Your friends do want.

Nick McGowan (14:13.478)
Yeah.

Renee Zukin (14:33.58)
you know, an opportunity to show up for you when you need it, because you know that you’ll do the same for them. yeah, so I mean, that’s the short, short version. Of course, there’s the breathing techniques, there’s the music. mean, music, right? Music can change anything for you in an instant. It’s truly good medicine.

Nick McGowan (14:45.818)
Yeah.

Nick McGowan (14:49.785)
Yeah.

Nick McGowan (14:56.529)
Well, I appreciate the honesty with that.

I don’t mean to ask that in a loaded way. I think it may have come off a little bit like that because I know that it’s not a real thing. Like if you figure out as a person the way that I operate, I can do this thing right now in these moments. growing up I was really tense. I had a lot of energy because I had childhood trauma and stuff and that would turn up in different situations where I felt all this energy and just needed to get out. And I could literally go like this and just let it out. Like release

Renee Zukin (15:15.384)
Hmm.

Renee Zukin (15:29.176)
Mm-hmm.

Nick McGowan (15:29.789)
the energy, but it took me so long to be able to figure that out. But it was all of those little steps and all those little days and all the step backs and the step forwards and the like bashing my head into a wall, sometimes physically of like what the fuck, to then figure out like literally these days stack upon themselves. So you find the things that can help you but there’s also not really like…

Renee Zukin (15:39.404)
Yeah. All right. Yes.

Renee Zukin (15:47.209)
Mm-hmm.

Renee Zukin (15:53.794)
There’s not one magic bullet.

Nick McGowan (15:55.151)
Yeah, it’s not like a little button. You go, cool, you gotta turn me off right now. And that’s it. Like that’s not how it works. It’s like you stack these things up and you do work. That then lessens the other heaviness of the other things. So obviously writing is a thing that’s important to you. But when I made the joke about my writing, you kind of laughed along with it. So have you found that the medium of actually writing doesn’t work for you, but like typing or speaking it out does?

Renee Zukin (15:59.094)
Right.

Renee Zukin (16:07.886)
Mm-hmm.

Renee Zukin (16:22.656)
Yeah, yeah, certainly it’s, it’s a, it’s a different game with all the technology than, know, just journaling in my notebook, but I still, I, I, I do both. and I think it activates different parts of the brain actually. and, but I couldn’t, I was, I sometimes I couldn’t tell you what the heck I just wrote with my, my hand.

Nick McGowan (16:40.506)
Yeah.

Renee Zukin (16:50.54)
I was like, my handwriting has gotten worse and worse and worse, but I’m a phenomenal typer.

Nick McGowan (16:55.216)
Yeah.

Nick McGowan (16:58.998)
yeah, I get that. Sometimes your shorthand, you can’t even read your shorthand. You’re like, I hope I felt better after that.

Renee Zukin (17:01.471)
Yeah.

Right? Well, that’s really a big part of it is rarely am I going back to something that I’ve handwritten to do something with. It’s just the purging of the stuff. And so, yeah, yeah.

Nick McGowan (17:20.546)
Again, that honesty is clutch.

Like what a fucking thing. I’ve asked, I had different therapists years ago and I went through a divorce and one of the therapists was like, I think you should journal. And I’d heard journaling so long and I tried journaling before and I get my handwriting’s a mess. And I was like, I don’t want to fucking journal, but to shut you up, I’ll do this thing. And I got into my own little rhythm and I had like this template that I created and literally like a year, maybe a little bit more than a year later, I was like, this is mechanical. And it’s not doing anything for me. Like I’m sitting down

Renee Zukin (17:44.898)
Yeah.

Renee Zukin (17:50.444)
Yeah. Yeah.

Nick McGowan (17:52.45)
at 11 o’clock tonight to write out 10 things and I’m like making shit up. I’m like I made chicken today and I brushed my teeth. I guess like what the fuck and and then I remember saying to somebody like are you supposed to go back and read it? They’re like there’s no supposed to. What kind of question is this? I was like oh all right well I’m gonna shift in a different way but those things like we have to I don’t want to say everybody because I don’t want to be a blanket statement.

Renee Zukin (18:03.266)
Yeah, yeah.

Renee Zukin (18:19.798)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Nick McGowan (18:21.786)
But I’ve seen that we as people need to figure our stuff out that works for us. That’s why I asked the question of like, from you and your character, like what works for you? And the reason why this show isn’t a solo show, I don’t think everybody would want to hear me for every fucking episode. But I think, like I can only talk about my stuff. Having somebody else on to talk about theirs, somebody else goes, why connect with that person? That makes sense. So you transitioned from, you’re right, you have to get that energy out. And I think that’s the most important thing.

Renee Zukin (18:27.607)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Renee Zukin (18:35.648)
Right.

Renee Zukin (18:50.67)
Absolutely. Yeah.

Nick McGowan (18:51.729)
out what do do to release that? What do you do to like work through that? Some people breathe, some people say they meditate for hours, and some people also lie constantly. So like what do you really do is the real thing, you know? Yeah, I meditate for six to seven hours every night. It’s beautiful. Sometimes REM shows up. It’s wonderful.

Renee Zukin (18:53.773)
It is.

Renee Zukin (19:03.79)
Call it meta-napping.

Renee Zukin (19:11.342)
It is, it is, yeah. Yeah, power naps for the wind. But yeah, right. But it’s true, like getting, like finding a way to, well, and movement. Like you talk about that energy.

Nick McGowan (19:19.585)
Seven hour power naps.

Renee Zukin (19:32.332)
You know, oftentimes when I’ll notice, especially if I’m in like a social situation or out in public or at a meeting, you know, when you’re in a room with people, especially for those of us who are sensitive to the energy that other folks give off and or, you know, lights and sounds and just, you know, can get overwhelming. what I’ll notice is I’ll notice what it feels like in the body.

And like you were saying with your clenched hands, it’s like, okay, I’m noticing I keep shifting in my seat. need to get, you and that, and it’s there for a reason. Like your body is telling you, okay, get up and move this out. Right? And I talk about how we’re so in, it’s so ingrained in us that we can’t like get out of our seats, right? This is our schooling, right?

Nick McGowan (20:27.927)
Yeah, yeah.

Renee Zukin (20:29.356)
And it’s like, you forget, I’m an adult now. I can just get up if I need to. Right. So like, you know, but you’re in a meeting, you’re supposed to be listening intently. Like I had to get over the fear of like, people are going to think I’m weird if I stand up in the middle of this meeting. And I just got over it. And the more I got over it, it also like gives other people the invitation.

Nick McGowan (20:33.07)
You can Irish exit whenever you want. I could hang up on this right now.

Renee Zukin (20:57.858)
to take care of your own needs in the moment. I’m still listening, but I got up from my seat, I’m leaning against the wall, I’m stretching my legs a little bit, and now I can actually pay attention more. So we’re in these bodies, right? And they’re giving us signals. And I think one of the reasons why life can be so hard is because we’re so trained to ignore.

are innate signals and we don’t gotta do that.

Nick McGowan (21:30.165)
Yeah, well shit also those other people.

that are looking at you have their own signals and their own judgments and biases that we then force upon them. Like if I stand up now, maybe that person over there is gonna look at me a little weird. But maybe that person right there is like, man, my stomach really fucking hurts. And they’re not thinking about anybody else or anything at all or whatever. But you’re like, that random person like 30 feet away from me is gonna turn around, I swear, and look at me. it’s like, we make these things up because…

Renee Zukin (21:35.756)
Right. yeah.

Renee Zukin (21:41.646)
Mm-hmm.

Renee Zukin (21:51.704)
Hey.

Renee Zukin (22:01.134)
Totally.

Nick McGowan (22:03.142)
Like we feel.

Like we should do a certain thing or we should not do a certain thing. Like I fucking said before, I think everything ties back to childhood drama. Like you literally had to ask, I go to the bathroom? I had a job, I don’t know, maybe like seven, eight years after high school. That was a sales job, but we were basically like beaten into making six, seven hours worth of calls every day. And at one point they told us you actually need to raise your hand to go to the bathroom. And I was like, are you fucking kidding me? I was like, there’s a, there is a

trash can right here and if it happens to be full by the end of the day, it’s your fucking fault. And they were like, no, that’s not right. Like, don’t you guys remember being in school and like, we, we are raised in a certain system of things that then tell us that the way that our systems internally are wrong. I appreciate that you’re saying that that

Renee Zukin (22:48.142)
and news.

Renee Zukin (22:52.12)
Mm-hmm.

Nick McGowan (22:55.628)
being brave and that courage to do that thing and to feel awkward and weird does show other people you can do this. I mean, you and I, without even talking about it, have been in that spot. You’ve seen somebody do it and you’re like, all right, cool. Look, who’s gonna leave the party first? Who’s gonna go do this thing first? And you’re like, great, they did. Time to wrap it up. Let’s go.

Renee Zukin (23:02.093)
Yeah.

Renee Zukin (23:08.482)
Yeah.

Yeah, exactly, Well, and the thing you said, like, we think other people are so, like, watching what we’re doing and whatever, thinking about us. They’re in their own heads. Everybody’s in their own heads with their own stuff. And yeah.

Nick McGowan (23:28.886)
They’re not. Yeah.

Yeah, they’re wondering what you’re thinking about them. Or somebody else. What a strange thing. But when I think of being brave and I think of being courageous and I think of purpose and I think of all these big things that we talk about on this show and I just naturally have conversation about.

Renee Zukin (23:35.272)
Right,

Nick McGowan (23:54.646)
I think there are levels that people put them at that are like these giant mountains. Especially when it comes to being a purpose-driven person. I’ve literally heard from people, or I’ve said it so many times, where it’s like, I don’t know if I have it in me to be like the next Steve Jobs or Oprah or to do this or do some major big thing. It’s like, great, because they did. That’s on you.

Renee Zukin (23:57.856)
Mm. Yes.

Renee Zukin (24:15.692)
You don’t have to. Right, you don’t have to.

Nick McGowan (24:19.051)
But again, the system and the way that the world shows us, it’s like you have to do all these things. Even the curated people that are on social media, it’s like you’re also not seeing the back end of that where they’re like, man, I really fucked this up. How do I fix this thing in editing? Or how do I do whatever? like, God, I don’t want to eat peanut butter and jelly, but like I forgot to eat and it’s 1130 at night or like what? They’re not posting those things. So it’s like, how do we then balance that and just work on ourselves each day? So let’s talk about some of that stuff. The things that

Renee Zukin (24:32.618)
Right.

Renee Zukin (24:41.142)
Right. Right.

Hmm

Nick McGowan (24:49.005)
not only in the book but you work with people on that are some of the kind of universal things that we as people can take some of those baby steps that can turn into toddler and teenage steps and whatever else to help with it.

Renee Zukin (25:01.11)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, yeah, I love, like, I love your examples of, like, you know, being the next Steve Jobs or Oprah or whatever. And like, one of the things, I mean, the phrase, every day I’m brave, was born because I was getting so pissed that I, that, that as a society, right, we don’t give people the same kind of accolades and like,

you know, celebrations for the small things that they’re brave enough to do. You know, at the time, I was busy comparing myself around the world and right social media, like, you know, my friends were doing, you know, going on girl strips for the weekend and I hadn’t flown in an airplane in like 15 years by that point. And I was like, I’m never going to do these things. I’m not, right. But what about the brave things I did do? Like I got out of bed today.

Nick McGowan (25:59.285)
Yeah.

Renee Zukin (26:00.268)
I didn’t want to, I didn’t want to face this job that I was in and I hated. didn’t want to, and that’s brave. And it started with even acknowledging the fact that I’m doing the hard stuff. So if nobody else is celebrating me, then I’m going to. that’s really like the first, you talk about these baby steps, it’s like,

Nick McGowan (26:22.89)
Sure.

Renee Zukin (26:30.424)
There’s the bravery is a spectrum. Courage is a spectrum. Success is a spectrum. And we can be anywhere along that line and still be considered a success or brave. Like I don’t need to go climb Mount Everest to be brave, right? I can show up for a podcast like this and, you know, do the thing, even if I was nervous about what I was gonna say, like, or how it was gonna come out.

Nick McGowan (26:36.692)
Yeah.

Renee Zukin (26:59.886)
and celebrate that. for like, you know, whoever’s out there listening right now, what’s the one thing that you really want to be doing, but you’re not. Instead of like beating yourself up about it, what’s even just the first small step that can turn you toward that thing that you think you want, right? That you’re desiring. And it’s going to look different. That five to 10 year goal, screw that, right?

What’s my goal today? Where do I want to go? And how is that and those incremental steps, how is that going to get me closer to the bigger vision I have? I mean, we definitely, you you’ve got things, you got dreams, you got things tapping you on the shoulder, like everybody does. And, and to just turn toward it, like even just a little bit, it makes such a world of difference when we’re able to celebrate the small steps and have compassion when we can’t.

Nick McGowan (27:43.242)
yeah. Hell yeah. Yeah.

Renee Zukin (27:58.658)
Like what’s bright for me one day is not the same as another. You know, as somebody who experiences obsessive-compulsive disorder, I don’t have it, I experience it. It’s, well, I mean I do, but it doesn’t have me. You know, some days are easier than others.

Nick McGowan (27:59.146)
Sure.

Renee Zukin (28:22.082)
You know, some days I can eat the food and not worry about what’s in it and not have all these thoughts and it’s no problem. And other days I’m like, okay, this one’s out. I’ll try again tomorrow. Like it’s just, and that’s okay. Like we have to be okay to not be okay sometimes. it has.

Nick McGowan (28:22.259)
Sure.

Nick McGowan (28:31.721)
Yeah.

Nick McGowan (28:44.039)
And that’s the more, it’s almost like the more you learn, the more you understand that there’s more to learn. And you can see that and go, okay. And you can kind of falsely go, well, I guess I’m real stupid. Cause all these other things are out there and it’s like, no, you’re, you’re going through and you’re learning. I think there are a few things here too. Like those, all of us, I’m pretty sure can look back at something that we did that we started off small and incrementally worked on. Even if it’s.

Renee Zukin (29:08.035)
Mm-hmm.

Nick McGowan (29:12.08)
anything. I mean, I, as a musician, I think back to, I started recording music again, like seven, eight years ago. And my God, did that stuff sound atrocious, like absolutely terrible. Everything was mono, like right in the middle and fucking stacked and terrible. And now I listen to the stuff that I’m recording and I’m still like, there are things I can do with whatever and I’ll spare you the nerdisms, but like, there are things that can fix those, but you have to be able to look and go, shit, look at the journey of this.

Renee Zukin (29:23.278)
Correct.

Nick McGowan (29:42.143)
same time I want to point out, because I’ve heard people say this, especially like, I guess I’m considered a geriatric millennial, which is a fucked up term, but born in 84, so like, I was at the cusp at the end of it. there are people that will say like, Millennials.

Renee Zukin (29:57.87)
I’m honored that you think we’re the same age, by the way.

Nick McGowan (30:01.437)
Well, I get we’re probably within X-Map time, but like at this age, like we’re right around the same age. Within a period of time. I mean, you remember certain things like the internet bubble. I think I was a few years too early for that. Like I don’t remember what that was like, but I remember things happening.

Renee Zukin (30:07.554)
Yes.

Renee Zukin (30:16.27)
Did do? Mm-hmm.

Renee Zukin (30:22.145)
Yeah.

Nick McGowan (30:23.289)
And I think if I was four five years older, I would have had more feelings about that. I would have been in the world at that point or whatever. But there are people that will say shit about like, everybody gets a trophy and all that stuff. And I really don’t know where that came from. But there’s like the thing that society seems to do where they take these major extremes. Like, well then everybody gets a trophy. And that is not what you’re saying. You’re saying like, yeah, you want to give yourself that trophy in a way, but like the applause for it.

Renee Zukin (30:30.444)
Mm-hmm.

Renee Zukin (30:35.672)
Yeah.

Renee Zukin (30:46.701)
No.

Nick McGowan (30:53.162)
also really look at it and be like, this was courageous. I am doing these things. Even talking about, well, I’m not here yet. Well, what have you done? You’ve done these things so far. You do wake up in the morning and you go to work or you do this or you do that. And finding the little bits of that that then also helps us but doesn’t bypass it. I think that’s a big thing. I’ve heard from different people, like, hey man, you can’t mindset your way through life. Like, I fucking know. Just listen to the show. It’s not what

Renee Zukin (30:57.838)
and.

Renee Zukin (31:16.716)
Right. Yeah.

Nick McGowan (31:23.084)
we talk about. But really it’s like you you also need to play those mental games in a way to be able to say well really if I look at it like this cool all right and then your attitude starts to change a little bit and maybe you look at that thing a little differently and you go I’m gonna be an awkward bumbling fuck that’s gonna walk in here not the fuck’s going on but then you leave and go huh I did have that one conversation where this thing came up where that made me think of this thing and then we stack those things on so it seems to me like the moral this whole story

Renee Zukin (31:46.52)
Mm-hmm.

Renee Zukin (31:51.34)
Mm-hmm.

Nick McGowan (31:52.997)
here is like just keep at it and keep kind of moving through that but I don’t want to take I don’t want to put words in your mouth so for the people that are on their path towards self mastery what sort of advice would you give them?

Renee Zukin (31:56.172)
Yeah. Yeah.

Renee Zukin (32:05.858)
Hmm. What advice? I like to be in the realm of self-compassion, right? More heart, more love, which doesn’t mean, I love that you said this about the trophy, right? You can love yourself where you’re at and still want to move forward and excel and learn.

And so I think what’s most important is that, is that to get comfortable in the gray areas, in the duality, right? We’re not bypassing anything. When shit happens and you feel like crap, like move through it, express it, right? Cause you can only get to the other side of it once it’s had.

an opportunity to move and then you can move toward more joy. can move toward more connection. But you can actually be connected even in that vulnerability. And so getting comfortable with the uncomfortable, being able to hold like two things simultaneously true at once, which is very difficult for us humans here on earth.

and, and so yeah, like getting comfortable with the gray because that’s where the beauty is too. And the complexity. yeah.

Nick McGowan (33:48.039)
I think we as people can kind of get lost at times in our own things or you go too far down a path mentally that you get lost on that path instead of just, it was just a path. Like you can just look at it, you know. I was having a conversation with somebody recently where it’s like, you have a hard time doing things when you know there are other really tough human things that are going on on the planet.

Renee Zukin (34:14.766)
Mm-hmm.

Nick McGowan (34:14.897)
Like, I literally had a conversation with my coach yesterday about like, well I’m doing this thing that I really enjoy doing, but at the same time people are literally being captured and starved to death on the other side of the planet. So how the fuck can I do any of these things? And how does that allow me to, like, you can see those paths without getting stuck in them, and then we can do what we can do in those times, but not getting crazed about it.

Renee Zukin (34:24.162)
Right. Right.

Nick McGowan (34:40.558)
And especially if you have OCD tendencies or things of that sort, that’s extra, it could be extra difficult. And again, that’s why I asked like from you and your perspective with the makeup that you have, how do you go through those things? So I think this has been wonderful.

Renee Zukin (34:53.571)
Yeah.

Thank you. And apologies for the dogs going nuts way back in the other place.

Nick McGowan (35:01.798)
all good. of the episode, so we’re fine. And this is all gonna be kept in here, so we’re good. Yeah, well, especially now. Typically I would find a way to like edit, but yeah, here we are.

Renee Zukin (35:07.82)
I mean, this is real life happening, right?

Renee Zukin (35:14.794)
Here we are, I know. no, I lost the thread. Darn it. the question, right? The world is on fire, how do I not go down with it? I think is paraphrasing the question. It is, it is especially important right now.

Nick McGowan (35:24.932)
Well.

Nick McGowan (35:30.63)
Sure.

Renee Zukin (35:40.462)
that we are able to cultivate some inner peace when so much is happening around us. For me, I can’t help anybody else if I’m on fire also. We’ll just all burn in the ashes. And so, not that I…

you know, not that I’m complacent or ignoring, right, these horrible, awful things that are happening in the world, but that is part of the duality. And how can I show up for myself, my people in the microcosm of my world so that it becomes reflected and ripples out into the macrocosm? I’m…

often saying we have to do the inner work to see outer change. We’re not going to change other people’s minds, opinions and things unless they’re willing to be open to another perspective. And so I too have to be open. And, you know, it’s a, I mean, it’s, it’s a tricky

Nick McGowan (36:57.893)
Yeah.

Renee Zukin (37:06.67)
path to walk. But I think the more that we can take care of ourselves in our inner landscape, in our mindset, and become the masters of our domain, we are better able to show up for the other people in this world to make it a better place. And the more people who are out there doing this inner work, the better

will be able to meet each other. So that’s, yeah.

Nick McGowan (37:38.553)
Yeah, it’s like a weird inside out thing where the more work that we do internally, the more that we’re able to help externally. But we get so much that’s literally pushed into our beings that it can feel the opposite of that. And like the world is telling us we should be these certain ways and we should do these certain things instead of like, well do what you can right around you. I’ve heard that there are people that

some of their, like part of their design is that they’re not able to actually be recognized like in their own little circles. And then there are other people that aren’t supposed to be recognized in those circles, but are supposed to be recognized in larger circles and have a minimal circle, what have you, and some that are the opposite of that, et cetera. And I think as we, like we only, only us as the people know that and we know that internally, but the more work that we can do with those moments, like

Renee Zukin (38:14.542)
Mm.

Renee Zukin (38:34.307)
Hmm.

Nick McGowan (38:36.868)
literally in the moment of like something happened, you felt a certain way, you thought a thing. It’s that live moment right then and there, where it’s like, you actually do the thing, like all these little things and quips and all that, like those are all cool and playful. And hopefully it gets stuck in your head. And maybe it makes you think differently or do differently. But it’s that fucking moment, like that exact moment where you have you do or you don’t. And it’s like the work that you’ve done before that will help you see those things a little differently. And I think sometimes I

and I’ve heard from other people that we look at things outside and go, yeah, but I should be and should is just bullshit. It’s like there’s no should. You shouldn’t be Steve Jobs. You should not be and you should be who you are and maybe that person will give birth to somebody else who becomes the next Steve Jobs. Maybe not. Maybe it’s like you just have a conversation like I don’t know. Maybe there’s somebody that listens to this and goes cool. I’m gonna change something to maybe they become some incredible person. Maybe they don’t. Maybe they just do things.

Renee Zukin (39:11.95)
Mm. Totally. No.

Renee Zukin (39:24.012)
Yeah. Yeah.

Renee Zukin (39:34.082)
Yeah. Right. Maybe they just feel better.

Nick McGowan (39:36.65)
little differently. I think if somebody listens to this, yeah, if they listen to this and go, hmm, maybe I need to think about this a little bit differently, or they ponder on something or act a little differently, like then you and I have been successful in our mission here, you know? So what a cool thing.

Renee Zukin (39:52.494)
Yep. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I love that. I just want to circle back the rhetorical circle and close it out with the first song on the album that I recorded in 2011 is called Some Kind of Hollywood. And it’s all about the fact that I don’t need to be a big pop star or the you know, like you can have this dream of making music and recording an album and it can be

Nick McGowan (40:09.345)
Not good.

Renee Zukin (40:22.124)
whatever you want it to be for you, it doesn’t have to be this big thing. And I think that’s what you’re really speaking to, Nick, and what kind of, you know, a lot of where this conversation has gone today is you do you, and you do you the best way you possibly can.

Nick McGowan (40:37.955)
That’s purpose, showing up, being you, doing the best that you can with your skills, and not trying to be somebody else. I’m right there with you, and I think that’s important. This has been awesome. So I appreciate you being on Before I Let You Go. Where can people find you? Where can they connect with you and get your book?

Renee Zukin (40:54.39)
Yes, EverydayI’mBrave.com. Real simple, that’s that title. And I’m on socials under my name, Renee Zukin. So all the places you’re socializing on the apps, that’s how to find me.

Nick McGowan (41:10.371)
It’s been a pleasure. I appreciate your time. Thank you so much.

Renee Zukin (41:14.52)
Thank you.