Vox's Sean Illing talks with Elizabeth Bruenig about how hard it is to forgive, how to balance our desire for justice with our humanity, and about how the age-old moral framework of forgiveness has met new challenges in the modern forum of social media.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), Interviews Writer, Vox
Guest: Elizabeth Bruenig (@ebruenig), staff writer, The Atlantic
References: 


“Not that Innocent” by Elizabeth Bruenig (The Atlantic; June 9)


“The Man I Saw Them Kill” by Elizabeth Bruenig (New York Times; Dec. 17, 2020)


Enjoyed this episode? Rate Vox Conversations ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.
Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of Vox Conversations by subscribing in your favorite podcast app.
Support Vox Conversations by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts
This episode was made by: 


Producer: Erikk Geannikis


Editor: Amy Drozdowska


Engineer: Paul Robert Mounsey


VP, Vox Audio: Liz Kelly Nelson


Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

How to forgive

The Gray Area with Sean Illing takes a philosophy-minded look at culture, technology, politics, and the world of ideas. Each week, we invite a guest to explore a question or topic that matters. From the the state of democracy, to the struggle with depression and anxiety, to the nature of identity in the digital age, each episode looks for nuance and honesty in the most important conversations of our time. New episodes drop every Monday.

Society & Culture

Personal Journals

History

Philosophy

Places & Travel

News

Politics

News Commentary

The internet has fractured our world into a million little subcultures catering to the specific identities and habits of everyone online. Writer Derek Thompson believes this has led to a widespread cult-like mentality that has crept into all facets of modern life — pop culture, media, politics, and religion itself. He joins Sean to explain this theory, and why it’s maybe not such a bad thing.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area
Guest: Derek Thompson (@dkthomp). His podcast is Plain English, and he writes for The Atlantic.
Enjoyed this episode? Rate The Gray Area ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.
Be the first to hear new episodes of The Gray Area by following us in your favorite podcast app. Links here: https://www.vox.com/the-gray-area
Support The Gray Area by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts
This episode was made by: 

Producer: Jon Ehrens 
Engineer: Patrick Boyd
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Everything's a cult now

Is it possible that we are living through one of the most revolutionary periods in human history? CNN’s Fareed Zakaria believes that we are and argues that the convergence of AI and the global backlash against liberal democracy are upending political orders around the world. He joins Sean to talk about how this period relates to history’s most impactful revolutions, both political and technological. 
Click here to take the Vox podcast survey
Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area
Guest: Fareed Zakaria (@fareedzakaria). His new book is Age of Revolutions.
Enjoyed this episode? Rate The Gray Area ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.
Be the first to hear new episodes of The Gray Area by following us in your favorite podcast app. Links here: https://www.vox.com/the-gray-area
Support The Gray Area by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts
This episode was made by: 


Producer: Jon Ehrens 


Engineer: Patrick Boyd


Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Fareed Zakaria on our revolutionary moment

Philosophy may seem like a theoretical or abstract discipline in which unanswerable questions are debated to the point of tedium. But MIT professor Kieran Setiya believes that philosophical inquiry has a very practical and applicable purpose outside of the classroom — to help guide us through life’s most challenging circumstances. He joins Sean to talk about self-help, FOMO, and midlife crises. 

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area
Guest: Kieran Setiya. His book is called Life is Hard.
Enjoyed this episode? Rate The Gray Area ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.
Be the first to hear new episodes of The Gray Area by following us in your favorite podcast app. Links here: https://www.vox.com/the-gray-area
Support The Gray Area by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts
This episode was made by: 


Producer: Jon Ehrens 


Engineer: Patrick Boyd


Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Life is hard. Can philosophy help?

Jane Marie is an expert in American bullshit. Her podcast The Dream explores life coaching, wellness, marketing, and other fraudulent industries and exposes their exploitative practices. Her book, Selling the Dream, takes an even closer look at multilevel marketing schemes like Amway and Herbalife and gives historical context to this multibillion-dollar — and distinctly American — enterprise. 

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area
Guest: Jane Marie. Her podcast is The Dream and her book is Selling the Dream.
Enjoyed this episode? Rate The Gray Area ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.
Be the first to hear new episodes of The Gray Area by following us in your favorite podcast app. Links here: https://www.vox.com/the-gray-area
Support The Gray Area by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts
This episode was made by: 


Producer: Jon Ehrens 


Engineer: Patrick Boyd


Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The American dream is a pyramid scheme

As a non-believer, Devin Moss never thought he would become a chaplain or a spiritual adviser, much less one who counsels hospital patients with terminal illnesses and inmates on death row. Devin joins Sean to talk about his improbable journey, the death penalty, and the role of religion in an increasingly secular society.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area
Guest: Devin Moss. His podcast is The Adventures of Memento Mori. 
Enjoyed this episode? Rate The Gray Area ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.
Be the first to hear new episodes of The Gray Area by following us in your favorite podcast app. Links here: https://www.vox.com/the-gray-area
Support The Gray Area by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts
This episode was made by: 


Producer: Jon Ehrens 


Engineer: Patrick Boyd


Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

How to forgive

Download our free app to listen on your phone