A lot of Gen Z men sound surprisingly excited about fatherhood. A lot of Gen Z women…do not. 

And that divide — and the national handwringing about it — says a lot about the changing status of men and women in this country, and the uncomfortable realization that for American policymakers, not all children are created equal. 

Today’s guest is Vox reporter and bestselling novelist Anna North, who covers kids, parenting, and American family life. She writes the Vox newsletter Kids Today, and her latest chart-topping novel is Bog Queen. She recently reported on the gap between young men and young women on parenthood and what that might tell us about gender roles, relationships, and the future of family formation in a politically polarized country.

Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling)

Guest: Anna North 

We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at [email protected] or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. 
And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday.

Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Mindfulness is everywhere now, which is kind of weird.

What started as a countercultural practice has become a productivity hack and a billion-dollar app ecosystem. On one level, it’s great that more people are meditating. But somewhere along the way, the whole thing got flattened. When mindfulness is mainly about optimizing your output, we’ve probably missed the point.

Today’s guest is Jon Kabat-Zinn, pioneer of the American mindfulness movement and author of the mega-bestseller Wherever You Go, There You Are. Jon’s work helped bring meditation into medicine, schools, sports, and everyday life. He’s also spent decades reminding people that mindfulness isn’t about escape, self-improvement, or becoming some perfectly serene version of yourself.

Sean and Jon talk about what mindfulness actually is, why being present is so damn hard, and what happens when industry turns meditation into another tool for self-optimization.

This episode originally aired in December of 2023.

Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling)

Guest: Jon Kabat-Zinn, author of Wherever You Go, There You Are: Mindfulness Meditation in Everyday Life.

We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at [email protected] or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show.

And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday.

If you enjoy our reporting and want to hear more from Vox journalists, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/vox. Each month, our members get access to exclusive videos, livestreams, and chats with our newsroom.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sean talks to Atlantic writer Tyler Austin Harper about the killing of Alex Pretti in Minneapolis, and why liberals are missing the point about American gun culture and the right to bear arms. 

Beyond that, Tyler asks an important question: If you really believe we’re sliding toward authoritarianism, how can you argue that the public should disarm? 

Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling)

Guest: Tyler Austin Harper (@Tyler_A_Harper)

We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at [email protected] or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show.

And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday.

If you enjoy our reporting and want to hear more from Vox journalists, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/vox. Each month, our members get access to exclusive videos, livestreams, and chats with our newsroom.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Gray Area with Sean Illing is now twice a week!

Look for new episodes every Monday and Friday, here in your ears and at Youtube.com/vox for your eyes. 

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Games are fun. Aren’t they?

When we play games — board games, video games, any kind of game — something magical happens. Games allow us to explore, to create little worlds where we can be different versions of ourselves. But when we turn life into a game — where we have to get the best grade, or the most money, or the most “likes” — then games stop being fun. Why is that?

This week Sean speaks with philosopher C. Thi Nguyen about what a game really is, the difference between playing for enjoyment and playing to win, and why games lose their magic when the stakes become real.

Thi argues that the things we value in life are increasingly captured by grades and likes and downloads and step counts and a thousand other metrics that quietly rewrite what we want and what we think makes us happy.

Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling)

Guest: C. Thi Nguyen, author of The Score

We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at [email protected] or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show.

And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Why do we love football so much? Why does this sport dominate American culture in a way nothing else can? Why does it feel essential even to people who barely like sports? And what does it say about us that we keep watching, even as the risks and contradictions become harder to ignore?

Today’s guest is Chuck Klosterman, cultural critic and bestselling author, whose new book Football tries to explain the game at the height of its power. Sean and Chuck talk about how football became the defining spectacle of modern America, why it’s easily the best television show we’ve ever seen, and why it presents a ton of moral dilemmas we can’t really solve. 

Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling)

Guest: Chuck Klosterman, author of Football

We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at [email protected] or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show.
And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Why is it so hard for America to build things?

Bridges take years to construct. Housing costs are soaring. Transit systems are crumbling. And we’re struggling to update our infrastructure to prepare for the climate crisis. Even when there’s broad agreement that something needs to be done, collective action feels impossible. Why is that?

Today’s guest is Marc Dunkelman, author of Why Nothing Works, a book about the modern American experience of watching government fail. He argues that by giving too many people the power to say “no,” we’ve stymied our collective progress.

Marc and Sean discuss an inherent tension in American politics: the need for effective, centralized power and a deep fear of its abuse. They trace how that tension has played out across American history, from the clashes between Jefferson and Hamilton, through the New Deal’s Tennessee Valley Authority, to the backlash against figures like Robert Moses. Marc argues that our current system — born out of a reaction to too much top-down authority during the late 20th century — has produced paralysis, dysfunction, and a deep distrust of government.

Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling)

Guest: Guest: Marc Dunkelman (@MarcDunkelman), author of Why Nothing Works: Who Killed Progress — and How to Bring It Back.

We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at [email protected] or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show.

And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube.Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members

This episode was supported by a grant from Arnold Ventures. Vox had full discretion over the content of this reporting.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It’s not always the most wonderful time of the year.

Every December, we’re told to be merry and stay positive. But a lot of us don’t feel that way. And when we don’t, the pressure to be happy makes everything worse. Sadness feels like failure. Grief feels like a personal mistake. Depression becomes something to hide.

But what if dark moods aren’t problems to fix? What if they’re part of being human?

Today’s guest is philosopher Mariana Alessandri, author of Night Vision, a book about how to honor the emotions we usually try to outrun. It’s not a celebration of sadness, but Alessandri calls bullshit on the culture of toxic positivity and the idea that happiness is something we’re supposed to choose on command.

Sean and Mariana talk about why Americans are addicted to the light, why “cheering people up” often backfires, how Stoicism shaped our emotional habits, and what it looks like to sit with grief instead of shaming ourselves for feeling it.

Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling)

Guest: Mariana Alessandri (@mariana.alessandri), associate professor of philosophy at the University of Texas-Rio Grande Valley and author of Night Vision: Seeing Ourselves Through Dark Moods.

We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at [email protected] or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show.

And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube.

Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. This holiday season, your membership goes further: when you join Vox as an annual Member, we’ll gift a free membership to a reader who can’t afford it. By joining today, you’ll get 30% off for an annual membership, and we’ll match your membership. And if you can’t afford it, visit that same link to apply for a free membership through our gift program.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You have to forgive people who wrong you…right? The world is filled with injustice and wrongdoing, and to live in the world — to not be consumed by anger — forgiveness is necessary. At least that’s what we’re told over and over again: By forgiving, we can set ourselves free.But is there a cost to forgiveness? Are we forgiving too quickly and too often?

Today’s guest is philosopher Myisha Cherry, whose book Failures of Forgiveness critiques our cultural obsession with forgiving those who have done us wrong. She’s not against forgiveness — that would be weird — but she says we ought to be more intentional about why we do it, more aware that the expectation to practice forgiveness often lands on the most vulnerable people, and more concerned about what gets lost when we treat forgiveness as the only path to healing. 

Sean and Myisha discuss the 2015 Charleston church shooting, the legacy of slavery, and the real difference between accountability, reconciliation, and simply moving on.

Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling)

Guest: Myisha Cherry (@myishacherry), associate professor of philosophy at the University of California Riverside, and author of Failures of Forgiveness: What We Get Wrong and How to Do Better.

This episode was made in partnership with Vox's Future Perfect team. Vox had full discretion over the content of this reporting.

We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at [email protected] or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show.

And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube.Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. This holiday season, your membership goes further: when you join Vox as an annual Member, we’ll gift a free membership to a reader who can’t afford it. By joining today, you’ll get 30% off for an annual membership, and we’ll match your membership. And if you can’t afford it, visit that same link to apply for a free membership through our gift program.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sean’s guest today is Daniel Kolitz, author of a remarkable Harper’s story on “gooning.” 

They talk about this emerging subculture and how it reflects back on the larger world, from the economics of attention to the rise of short-form everything. Kolitz explains why the Gooniverse isn’t just about porn, how hyperkinetic media rewires our sense of pleasure and patience, and why this is really a story about how society is changing in ways we might not like.

Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling)

Guest: Daniel Kolitz, author of The Goon Squad

We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email [email protected] or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show.

And you can watch new episodes of ⁠⁠The Gray Area on YouTube⁠⁠..

Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members.

This holiday season, your membership goes further: when you join Vox as an annual Member, we’ll gift a free membership to a reader who can’t afford it. By joining today, you’ll get 30% off for an annual membership, and we’ll match your membership. And if you can’t afford it, visit that same link to apply for a free membership through our gift program.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices