In this episode, Nick speaks with Karmen Michael Smith, who shares his journey of self-discovery and healing as a queer black man growing up in a religious and conservative environment. He talks about the challenges he faced in finding acceptance and belonging within his family and society. They explore the process of healing and self-acceptance, including therapy and self-reflection, emphasizing the importance of asking questions and being a catalyst for transformation. Karmen shares about his journey of self-discovery and healing, from childhood trauma to finding his calling as a minister to the LGBTQ+ community, and encourages others to embrace disruption as a catalyst for liberation and self-mastery.

What to listen for:

“Healed people go on to heal people.”

“It gets worse before it gets better. The stuff that you’ve been repressing and locking away has to come up in order to get out.”

About Karmen Michael Smith

Karmen Michael Smith was born and raised in small-town Texas. Karmen is a Black queer theologian, cultural critic, author, and Lizzie Mae’s grandson. Karmen is the author of Holy Queer and hosts Heart of the Moment on YouTube. A catalyst for personal and social transformation, Karmen’s experiences have shaped his unique perspective on the intersection of identity, faith, and social justice.

Resources:

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Your Friends at “The Mindset & Self-Mastery Show”

Nick McGowan (00:01.929)
Hello and welcome to the Mindset and Self Mastery Show. I’m your host, Nick McGowan. Today on the show, Carmen Michael Smith. Carmen, how you doing today? I’m good. I’m excited that you’re on. We were shooting the breeze before, before hit record. And now I want to say your full name like 15 times. A little bit of an inside joke, folks. Carmen, why don’t you, why don’t you kick us off? Tell us what you do for a living.

Karmen Michael Smith (00:13.48)
I’m good, how are you Nick?

Karmen Michael Smith (00:22.824)
Ha ha ha.

Nick McGowan (00:29.385)
And what’s one thing most people don’t know about you that’s maybe a little odd or bizarre?

Karmen Michael Smith (00:34.056)
Thanks for having me. I’m a minister, an author, I work in the DEI space, and I like to consider myself a catalyst for transformation.

Nick McGowan (00:45.097)
Beautiful. So what’s that odd thing?

Karmen Michael Smith (00:46.472)
And yeah, the odd thing that most people don’t know about me and find hilarious when they do is that I really like the Muppets. But beyond the Muppets, it’s Kermit the Frog. And I have a vintage Kermit the Frog from like 1940. I mean, sorry, 1960 something. It’s old. It’s probably late 60s or 70s. I can’t remember the date at this point because now I’m getting older. And then I have like a like really big Kermit the Frog.

that can just like sit on your shoulder or on the bed or so it’s a little creepy for some people but Kermit I’ve always it’s not easy being green so as a outsider I’ve connected to him so I’m a Muppets fan and I’ve seen every movie and every episode.

Nick McGowan (01:30.025)
Nice. Well, look, I don’t want to tell you how you should be on podcast interviews, but I really think you should have Kermit involved. It should just be like sitting in the back, you know, literally hanging out over your shoulder. And I was going to ask, I guess it’s kind of obvious of like, well, how did you get to that? Why that? But you pointed out it’s not easy being green and being different. I would assume that that was something that happened when you were younger, like.

Karmen Michael Smith (01:38.952)
Just, you know, just sitting here. Got you.

Nick McGowan (01:58.889)
Give me a little bit of context here.

Karmen Michael Smith (02:01.512)
You know, I think you gravitate to, you’re attracted to you not what you want, but who you are. And so I was attracted to the Muppets. I was called an old soul my entire life. My actual nickname in my family, my uncle gave to me when I was like five or six, every time I came in there and they’d be like, man. And so I’m like, hey, cause I was just, you know, I’d been here before wiser than his years.

And when I go back and look at the Muppets, yeah, it’s Kermit being different and the green one, and he seemed a little more introverted at times, but he was also the leader. And all of that stuff resonates with me. But also the fact that if you go back and watch those Muppet series, not the movie, they’re very mature. And I didn’t realize the two men up in the balcony are making very explicit jokes that I’m like, wait, this wasn’t for kids.

Nick McGowan (02:45.321)
Yeah.

Nick McGowan (02:54.665)
Not at all.

Karmen Michael Smith (02:55.624)
But I thought it was for kittens, so yeah, I was kind of beyond my years along with the Muppets then too.

Nick McGowan (03:00.777)
man, that’s good. I think of cartoons like that, you know, like Spongebob even. There were things where it’s like, wow, this was written mostly for the adults. It had to have been.

Karmen Michael Smith (03:07.368)
Mm.

Karmen Michael Smith (03:13.096)
had to have been, yeah.

Nick McGowan (03:15.497)
There’s no other way around it. There are certain things where you’re like, as a kid, like, that I guess that’s funny because other people are laughing. And remember being like, why, why are my parents laughing so hard at that thing? That doesn’t make any sense. And then years later, being like, duh, that makes a ton of sense. How did they slip that one past?

Karmen Michael Smith (03:33.512)
Exactly. Yeah, that’s how the Muppets were when I go back and watch it. But so I’m like, I can’t believe they said that and in the 80s on television. But yeah.

Nick McGowan (03:40.169)
yeah. geez. That’s off. We could probably go down an entire path just with that stuff. But give us a little bit more context about who you are. Because there’s a lot that is involved in what you do and what you’re about. And I want to be able to get into the complete picture of who you are. So give us kind of a snapshot of what it was like being raised as the old man and becoming who you are today and doing what you’re doing.

Karmen Michael Smith (03:46.792)
Yeah.

Karmen Michael Smith (04:03.144)
Mm.

Karmen Michael Smith (04:06.792)
So I’ve always liked church. I was, I’m the youngest of five, but my brothers are like 10 and nine years older than me. My sisters are older than me as well. So I was the, the different one. I was, you know, off in the corner because they were, who wants their little brother with them when you’re 10 years old? Like you’re like, I don’t need a one year old. So I became very much a loner or introvert, but

For me, it didn’t feel like I was a loner. I felt just creative, but I liked going to church because church was a community. And, you know, back then in small town, Texas, like everybody went to church on Sunday and everyone believed, even if they didn’t believe it’s just what you do because you were an outcast if you didn’t. And so I really enjoyed the music. I enjoyed the community. I actually listened to the sermons. And one day when I was about four, my mom allowed me to go with her to choir rehearsal.

You know, it was like, I like the music, but children were seen and not heard. So you sit there quietly and let everyone do what they do. And I’m just like feeling like I’m at an amusement park. I remember enjoying going to those things and watching the musicians do things. And I was just enthralled. And at the end of one of their rehearsals, the minister came and picked me up and walked me over to the podium and said, say something. This is my mom’s recollection. She loves this story. And I must’ve mumbled something. And then he looked at her in the rest of the.

the choir members and said, when he gets older, he’s gonna preach. And my mom’s like, yep, you know, I’m so proud. And I kept saying as I got older, nope, not gonna happen because I know I’m different. And I, you know, in elementary, I’m not thinking gay. I just knew that like, even by the time I’m a teenager, no, I can’t, it’s not even that I don’t want to be, I can’t be a preacher. I am gay, this is the black church.

Nick McGowan (05:41.225)
Hehehehe.

Karmen Michael Smith (05:59.08)
homophobia even today is still very rampant. So I’m just like, no, that’s never going to happen. And resigned to being in the church in service and being accepted to work and to do all the things, but not being fully accepted. And so that stuff starts to take its toll. And fast forward years later, I moved to New York and I knew if I wanted to find community, find a church. And I did. And one Sunday I was

I literally heard, like, this should be your last Sunday, heard the voice of God that I know. And so I said, you know, okay, I’m going to give you all a couple of weeks, but then like I’m done here in the praise and worship team and I am not going to be doing this. And that really led to my journey of seeking. And I’ll stop here and just say in that seeking, I learned that healed people go on to heal people. And so that really started my journey of healing when I actually stepped away from the church.

Nick McGowan (06:30.249)
Hmm.

Karmen Michael Smith (06:55.944)
and didn’t have this sort of triangle, love triangle going on. I no longer had a third person telling me and guiding me. I needed to go seek and have a personal relationship. And in doing all of that, you know, you learn a lot of things, a lot of things have to go away. There’s some suffering that happens and you come out on the other side at times still questioning, but I think that that’s…

Nick McGowan (07:16.105)
Yeah.

Karmen Michael Smith (07:25.608)
where I thrive in the seeking. And so because I ask questions, as I say, a catalyst for transformation, I ask questions. I ask questions that people don’t want me to ask sometimes. I ask questions that just maybe disrupt the status quo, but I have questions because I, at my heart, am a seeker. I’m not trying to be a disrupter. I’m seeking.

Nick McGowan (07:48.265)
Hmm. I feel a lot of that. I asked a lot of questions. I mean, part of the reason why I have a podcast. I also feel like I’m a seeker but a disruptor as well. I mean, I’m the head of disruption for choose your calling. So there’s kind of part of that. And I love that you brought up healed people heal people, because I often think about hurt people hurt people.

Karmen Michael Smith (08:02.28)
You

Nick McGowan (08:13.449)
And there is the opposite side of that, where once you’ve gone through that and you’re healed, you can heal others and that we can speak to different people in different ways, not just about, I don’t even want to say religion, just faith and the interactions that we have with who we believe the creator to be. I’d thought years and years and years ago, I’d had conversations with my grandparents who are, I don’t know, I kind of joked and said that they were like cape wearing super Christians.

Karmen Michael Smith (08:25.384)
Mm -hmm.

Nick McGowan (08:41.065)
They’d never drank. They never did anything. Like they just followed the book, how the book said. And like even to the point where Sundays you didn’t do things because that’s how they interpreted the book. And that’s not actually what it means. You do more of what you want. But there’s just different ways. So I remember saying to my grandfather, like, look, I could go back when I would drink and sober at this point, but I would say, look, I could have a beer with somebody and get into conversations about Jesus.

and getting to conversations about life things, but you would never actually be in the spot to be able to be that. And that literally has happened. I’ve been at different spots having conversations with people with a joint in the hand or a beer in the hand or whatever, and being able to get into deep, meaningful conversations. I bring that up because it’s important. I don’t know what it’s like to be in your shoes with the different variations, queer,

Karmen Michael Smith (09:20.2)
Same.

Nick McGowan (09:38.921)
black, you know, being in the south, being those and experiencing what you experienced, even back to like the kids aren’t supposed to speak, they’re just supposed to be there in a church where you wanted to be there. And I think there’s a lot when we look at really what faith calls us to be, it’s to be ourselves, and to be able to actually have conversation and community with others. So,

Karmen Michael Smith (10:00.04)
Mm -hmm.

Nick McGowan (10:07.369)
How did you actually get to where you’re at now with all those obstacles and system issues that were just literally trying to move you into basically a box?

Karmen Michael Smith (10:20.52)
I like to say to people that on this end, I see it as a calling. I’m doing a book talk. I have a book called Holy Queer, The Coming Out of Christ, which is disruptive. But it’s really trying to change people’s perspectives. There’s this clip in Dead Poets Society with Robin Williams where he stands on the desk and tells the guys, the view up here is different.

Nick McGowan (10:33.225)
Mm -hmm.

Karmen Michael Smith (10:48.072)
come, climb on the desk, look around, stand, look. And that’s really what I was being pushed to, is to stand on top of the desk. Everyone else was standing on the ground looking around and had, you know, assessed the situation. They know what the Bible says, you know what it does. And here I am. First of all, I’m not very tall, I’m not very big. So that is different for Texas. Like, you know, the guys are corn fed and they’re, you know, hearty stock.

Nick McGowan (10:55.817)
Hmm.

Karmen Michael Smith (11:16.616)
And I was super skinny. I was four, three in the third grade and probably weighed 87. Like I just didn’t fit in. And then I had long curly hair and cause my mom didn’t make me cut my hair. And so it was that challenge of just my appearance, just walking into a room. You are different and people don’t see difference as like, you’re different. They see different as a threat.

Nick McGowan (11:36.425)
Hmm.

Karmen Michael Smith (11:45.928)
And so when people see you as a threat, they equate you with a terrorist. Now I’m asking questions. And so what people do is when they think that you are a terrorist, they terrorize you. And so I grew up in a system where adults are giving me side eyes and making comments to me. I was nine years old and went to a church service. We had visited.

our old church and we were in the foyer waiting to go in because they were praying and this older woman looked over at me and I smiled and she said, because I remember, because you know we remember the traumatic, when you were going to church here I didn’t like you because your mom used to let you do what you wanted to do.

I’m nine years old. And this adult thought that it was appropriate to tell me that she didn’t like me at a younger age. And it took years to realize, because my mom is very strict, like my aunt would be like, y ‘all can’t do anything but breathe. So it’s like, no, my mom was strict, but it took years to realize she was saying, she didn’t make you conform.

Nick McGowan (12:51.145)
I’m gonna go.

Karmen Michael Smith (12:57.896)
She didn’t make you cut your hair. She didn’t make you not participate in the music thing and then go outside and play with the boys. She let you be who you were and she cultivated that. And that was just instances where, whether it was teachers or students, I just was not supposed to be who I organically was. And goes into teenage years of like, well, now you are…

of sex having age, you know, and so people start to look at you different. So not only am I, you know, friends with, you know, all my classmates, but I’m really close friends with this one young lady, Laura, and she’s white and I’m black and we’ve been in, you know, all the science classes together and we’re just friends. And she tells me one day that her father doesn’t want her to hang out with me anymore in middle school because now I’m no longer the little black kid. I’m a black boy. And so now, okay, well,

Nick McGowan (13:51.017)
Mm.

Karmen Michael Smith (13:53.704)
I’m on the outside of my community because I’m not boy enough. I go over here and you’re a black boy and I don’t want my daughter, you know, falling in love or liking or y ‘all doing anything together. And then I go to my church community and it is.

No, like not the gay stuff. Like we don’t call it that. We say he’s funny. We say he’s eclectic. You know, he was always so theatrical, you know, things of that nature. We never would say, but it was all of that that just told me that I was other and that I was different. And so to even be able to sustain, it was a bunch of escape.

Mental escape, I mean, which is why I write, which is why, you know, I’m an author. Mental escape, creating different worlds. I write scripts, I write fiction because I spent a lot of time inside, imagining worlds where I wasn’t different. It wasn’t that everyone was like me, but I just could imagine worlds. And then when I finally did move and go to like New York City, I didn’t know people there and that was a complete change from Texas.

Nick McGowan (15:07.145)
the

Karmen Michael Smith (15:07.176)
that I would just go out and have meals by myself and sit and make up stories about what the other couples were saying at the tables. Because I had spent so much time escaping into stories and fantasy that it was a lot easier to live there than into real life.

Nick McGowan (15:26.729)
So what part of this do we tackle first? I guess first off, because I find it kind of funny, it’s like Mystery Science Theater 3000, in a sense, where you’re like watching other people and you’re far enough away where you can be like, and then Susie, I told him to go screw himself. And meanwhile, the guy’s like, and then he dropped the ball of whatever. I’m like, what, you know, just make up stories. But it sucks that it comes from a place where you had to dissociate.

Karmen Michael Smith (15:42.088)
You

Yep.

Nick McGowan (15:54.473)
and you had to detach from where you were because you couldn’t be who you are because those people were affected by generational trauma and systems that were telling them this is not how we are. I also find it really fucked up and funny that people will use different words when they can’t just use the actual word. They’re like, well, he was just funny. The fuck does that mean? What do you mean funny? Is he a comedian? Is that what he was doing?

He was theatrical. Was he putting on plays in the middle of the fucking ceremony or whatever? Like it doesn’t make any sense. If only people could use their words. I do think people have a hard time using the actual words. And I find it difficult at times for myself when the trauma is so ingrained, when this thing is so ingrained that you don’t know how to ask yourself the different questions. But you were in a spot where you saw it, you felt it, and you were kind of forced.

Karmen Michael Smith (16:49.096)
Mm -hmm.

Nick McGowan (16:52.393)
to ask the different questions and to use, all right, well, how do I separate myself from this? Because you’re being an asshole to me and I’m nine years old. What is wrong with you? So what a beautiful way to be able to turn that into sort of a superpower for yourself. But how did you actually work through that? And how did you handle the processing of all of those things?

Karmen Michael Smith (17:17.48)
So I will say, because I’m a Virgo, we get upset. And I found this to be a common trait amongst Virgos, at least who were born in September. We get upset about something, and then we say, I’ll fix you, I’ll overachieve. So you want to cheat on me? I’ll get a PhD, and then you’ll really feel the burn. So what I was doing was often trying to people please.

Nick McGowan (17:39.881)
Yeah.

Karmen Michael Smith (17:46.184)
and didn’t realize that’s what it was. My accomplishments were trying to please people to say, I was enough. So now I’m going to be smart. Now I’m going to know all the things, which then puts me at odds with teachers when I then have other questions that they are not expecting because I really did the reading and I’m really, I’ve already processed it in my own world. And now I’m coming to ask you all of these, you know, deep questions. And they’re like, class, Carmen’s a know it all. So for the rest of the day, let’s call him Mr. Know it all.

So further marginalizing me from this. And so by the time I got to something has to be done. I need to, because I can feel the pressure of like it all on me in my twenties, but don’t really know what it is. And it’s like, I’m not hungry, but I’m hungry. I, I’m a small guy, but I will tell you, my sister would always say, don’t eat with him because he’ll be, you know, one pound heavier and you’ll be 22 pounds heavier because he can eat.

Nick McGowan (18:18.537)
Yeah.

Karmen Michael Smith (18:46.12)
And I didn’t realize I was just eating my feelings. I could not, there is not a trauma or an experience that I can be re -triggered about that there wasn’t a meal to fix. Whether it was mac and cheese, whether it was double cheeseburgers, whether it was, you know, I didn’t care about the Haagen -Dazs ice cream. I’m like, I want it the full Sundays and fancy sandwich day. I’m really going to pack it in there and really make something. Like I am literally just eating my feelings. And when I finally,

Nick McGowan (18:49.225)
Mm.

Nick McGowan (19:12.425)
Hmm.

Karmen Michael Smith (19:14.856)
decide to like start therapy. I was nervous about that because again, it wasn’t something I grew up with. I’m in my twenties at that point and our late twenties and I’m like, okay, well I have to try something different. You know, I’ve tried to do all the things, but you can’t outrun what is inside of you everywhere you go. You are that kind of thing. And what I realized is that one, I had a safety issue.

Nick McGowan (19:35.785)
Mm -hmm.

Karmen Michael Smith (19:43.112)
because I had grown up in a space where I experienced an extreme trauma, staying with a family member one night in the South, windows open, you know, it wasn’t a big town, but a man had climbed in the window when I’m sleeping in the bed and had literally held me at gunpoint while he raped her. And my mind had locked that because I was only three or four years old at the time, but my mind had locked it away.

So as I started pulling these bricks down in my life, it finally surfaced. And so further making me like, well, yeah, I really can’t trust to protect anyone. And that’s why you’re even more isolated on top of that. And so I started pulling back these bricks and layers. And I have to say that to anyone listening, it gets worse before it gets better. The stuff that you’ve been repressing and locking away has to come up in order to get out. And so I had to then.

go through the things that had happened and start to really resent my family first, because I’m like, wait, so I was unprotected all this time I’ve been unprotected. Like in this situation, in that situation, like you weren’t looking out for me. Why was I not worthy enough to be looked out for? Why, like, why didn’t you care about me? And then once I got, you know, I think it took probably about three months of me just like really feeling angry at my family.

Nick McGowan (20:47.817)
Mmm.

Karmen Michael Smith (21:10.888)
to realize they were doing the best they could. Yes, they should have been protecting me, but they had their own stuff they were trying to process as well. And then I had to go through the process of not trusting people, finally being okay with my family, but realizing all the systems and structures in place that have told me that I am not enough, that have told me I’m not worthy, that have told me that you are other.

Nick McGowan (21:18.537)
Mm -hmm.

Karmen Michael Smith (21:38.568)
And I would say the majority of these things didn’t have the weight of being gay. They had the world of just being other. You had been small and long hair and you were too smart for your own good. And you, so I’m having to process all of that and thinking, well, I’m still in the closet. So that’s fine because no one knows.

Nick McGowan (22:02.825)
Wow.

Karmen Michael Smith (22:03.08)
And so it was a layer by layer walking through the fire of each one of these things has to be healed. There is no easy button. And so you figure out, I mean, you’re doing the best you can on each day. You know, I’m reading all the self -help books and I’m watching all of the videos and doing all of the stuff I know to do another form of seeking to work myself through that. I don’t know if that fully answers the question, but I…

Nick McGowan (22:12.489)
Yeah.

Karmen Michael Smith (22:32.552)
It was a step -by -step process of letting all of the bad come up, which I’ve talked to people now who fear that process. They would rather just shop or eat or have sex or drink or what, because it’s like, if I pull down one brick, I’m afraid of what’s behind it.

Nick McGowan (22:42.249)
Yeah, sure. It’s easier.

Nick McGowan (22:50.185)
Yeah. wow. So I love to ask the questions that have conversation like this. Like I’m not ever asking a question to just get an answer back. I want the depth to it. And there’s a lot into that. And I’m sorry that you went through that as a child that in itself is traumatic. Even if that was the only thing that you ever experienced, that would be enough to be able to drive somebody crazy. And

It’s a wild thing to think about when you start to really become self aware, see the things that need to happen and you start to remove that one brick. I used to think of it as doors like I’ll open one door and there’s 40 fucking more Mike. my god, come on. And then you open one more door and you’re like these fucking doors just keep going. Why don’t why don’t I ever get to the end of it? And I’ve realized through my own processing and my own work that you don’t.

Karmen Michael Smith (23:22.888)
Mm -hmm.

Karmen Michael Smith (23:31.4)
Yes.

Nick McGowan (23:45.385)
get to the end of those, you just start to close those doors. And you’re okay with either walking back into them, watching the movie, not being directly back in that spot going through it. And yeah, the more work that you do, the more work that you realize you need to do. And you touched on something that is a similar process that I think a lot of people don’t really put into words, but are familiar with. It’s like the grieving process, when you have to go through those stages.

Karmen Michael Smith (24:01.992)
Yeah.

Nick McGowan (24:15.273)
And once you start to see something and you go, wow, I really was not protected and you’re upset and maybe you’re in denial. And then you start to see peace from it. And then you start to do something with it. And then, you know, you just kind of walk through that process. And some people just live in those sections for a lot longer than they want to. And it’s like, you have to do the work to be able to do that. But I want to take a bit of a step back. You said you got to your late twenties.

Karmen Michael Smith (24:29.544)
Mm -hmm.

Karmen Michael Smith (24:37.512)
Hmm.

Nick McGowan (24:44.297)
and then you got into therapy. Or people that listen to this show that are like you and I, they’re the go -getters, they’re the leaders of the world, they’re doing things and they understand they’ve got shit that’s going on or that has happened behind them, that’s why they listen to this and why they pursue and seek. But there are still people that haven’t actually taken that step of just having conversation. And there are some that have had conversations and had therapy, but don’t feel like they got anything out of it. And…

I don’t think that talk therapy is the end all be all. I think it’s kind of like, it’s the gateway into most other things. So how did you get to that point where you were like, all right, I have to actually go through therapy. And then what was the next step from therapy? Like, what sort of processing did you get into from there? That can help kind of be a roadmap for people.

Karmen Michael Smith (25:17.256)
No.

Karmen Michael Smith (25:33.284)
So I would say one, I feel very blessed that the first therapist I got was an older Jewish woman who had a very motherly spirit who worked well for me. And I’ve had friends who’ve also gone out and had to try two or three therapists, sometimes four and more before finding one that resonates with them. And it is much like the dating process.

Nick McGowan (25:54.153)
or more. Yeah.

Nick McGowan (26:02.441)
the

Karmen Michael Smith (26:02.664)
You have to do it a while, you know, okay, I’ll try this one. Then I’ll try one more. Okay. By the third session, I kind of know this isn’t going or doesn’t feel effective. I would say one therapy is not there to tell you what is wrong with you, which is the assumption. you’re going to walk in and they’re going to be like, you know what your problem is. And two, I encourage you that therapy is a space for you. You can often talk to your siblings or your friends.

and you tell them, someone stepped on my toe. You know someone stepped on my toe or when that happened to me, this is what. No, therapy is just for you. You don’t have to worry about someone bringing in their stuff and it usurping or someone saying, well, it ain’t that bad or you just need to get over it. Cause my best friend from high school, I tried to tell him that I had issues that like, I just were, it was hard and he was like, you know, okay, you just, you’ve got to let those things go and just keep going.

Nick McGowan (27:02.665)
Well, okay. Sure.

Karmen Michael Smith (27:02.76)
And I, right, okay, sure. And I was upset with him for about a week. And then I realized, like, it was like I woke up because I was doing my work. I was also journaling at the time. And I thought that’s his capacity. He doesn’t have capacity to hear my heavy issues, likely because he hasn’t heard his own.

Nick McGowan (27:24.329)
Yeah. Yeah. And that’s not being able to communicate properly at that point, where they’re just like, I don’t know what to say to you. It’ll be okay. When in all reality, they just want to be like, fuck, that’s a lot. And I’ve got a lot of shit too. And I don’t even know where to go. And like, I don’t want to open up that first door. I don’t want to go near that first door. What a beautiful spot to be in though for yourself now in this conversation to be able to understand and see like, those people.

Karmen Michael Smith (27:32.616)
Yeah.

Karmen Michael Smith (27:39.752)
Yeah.

Nick McGowan (27:52.617)
they were going through and doing the best they can just like with your family where you’re like, you can be upset. And I have similar things I can almost guarantee everybody that listens to this episode or any other episodes are like, fuck, yes, that you can also you can understand that these people did you wrong. But they also probably didn’t do it on purpose. Like they did the best that they could with the experience and knowledge and even the wisdom that they have.

Karmen Michael Smith (27:55.816)
Mm -hmm.

Karmen Michael Smith (28:08.936)
Mm -hmm.

Nick McGowan (28:19.753)
to be able to do what they could do in all reality. Like think about it, if your parents or even that lady was just like, I didn’t like you because you were different and that scared me. As a nine year old, you’d have been like, that’s strange. Shit, as a 30 some year old, you’d have been like, that’s really impressive, you know?

Karmen Michael Smith (28:36.136)
Yeah, but I want to say to that point of yes, your parents or your friends or life did not do this on purpose, but it still happened to you. And there is a way to sit into a yes and, and that was one of the first things in therapy that we talked about. She gave me a book. I can’t remember the name, but like I needed to read an excerpt from it, but it was a yes and principle.

Nick McGowan (28:48.425)
Mm -hmm.

Karmen Michael Smith (29:04.872)
Yes, this thing could have happened and they didn’t mean to do that purposely. Yes, they stepped on your foot, but and not but, but and you know, they had their own life traumas in their life stuff that they were probably not even focused. And yes, they should have been focused on you. And you know, it’s hard to show up for you when they can’t show up for themselves yet. All of that. And it’s okay to be upset about that. And then also come to a realization that that anger.

has to go somewhere and you can direct it at people for things that have happened or you can redirect it in some way that serves you. Because if the situation didn’t, which is how I rationalized, okay, if that wasn’t working for me and no one was looking out for me, I’m gonna look out for me and I can take my anger and make it look out for me. And those are slow processes as well, but it can be a yes and.

Nick McGowan (29:57.193)
Mm -hmm.

yeah. And I agree with that. It’s interesting about the the anger or anything that’s like that. What I’m thinking right now is the the fragmentation that happens. You’ll go through trauma and there will be a piece that is then locked and that piece will then try to come back up. And I’ve had this happen so many times where it’s like.

Karmen Michael Smith (30:18.696)
Mm.

Karmen Michael Smith (30:25.608)
Mm -hmm.

Nick McGowan (30:26.409)
something will happen, I want to respond instead I’ll react because that piece of me that’s like, you’re gonna fuck the learn today. And it’s like, we’re gonna make sure that you’re good Nick, you just sit down and I’m like, don’t be a monster. And it’s like too late because it doesn’t know because it’s a fragmented piece. And so all of these things are true simultaneously that goes along with the yes and it’s like, yes. And this person’s piece.

Karmen Michael Smith (30:34.632)
yeah.

Karmen Michael Smith (30:41.256)
You

Mm -hmm.

Karmen Michael Smith (30:51.208)
Yes.

Nick McGowan (30:55.977)
Like that lady who said that thing to you, that may have been a piece from when she was seven or eight years old, wanting to run around and just be her where her parents were telling her you can’t be. So then that locked in. And that’s really difficult for anybody to be able to just understand all that in a nanosecond in that situation, especially as a young human, because you’re just in taking all this information. You’re like, well, that was that was weird.

Karmen Michael Smith (31:08.648)
Mm -hmm.

Nick McGowan (31:23.401)
I guess I’m not supposed to do this or whatever. And then that fragmentation happens. And then here you are trying to remove all those bricks and be like, the fuck is this? There’s bugs all over the back of this thing. How did you get there? Wow. So you went through.

Karmen Michael Smith (31:33.736)
Right.

Karmen Michael Smith (31:37.896)
Yeah.

Nick McGowan (31:44.265)
religiosity, I guess is the best way to put it with the legalism, where people were like, this is how we do these things. And that’s a real big just system issue. I wish we could really get away from that. It would be wonderful if everybody was like, you’re different. Great. Tell me about you. Well, not everybody is, you know, I, I try to be and I’m not pat myself on the back. It’s just the more that I learned, the more that I opened to these things. And I would like to think that we all have the capacity to be able to do that.

Karmen Michael Smith (31:54.248)
Yes.

Nick McGowan (32:13.993)
but we also all judge because you look at things from your perspective and go, well, I think this makes sense. And it’s oftentimes pretty hard to be able to go, well, why does it make sense? Where did that come from? So you went through all that stuff in church and you had a deep passion for church. And I get that with the community and all of that. I can speak to my side from even just music.

Karmen Michael Smith (32:19.176)
Mm -hmm.

Karmen Michael Smith (32:34.792)
Mm -hmm.

Nick McGowan (32:39.561)
I had a friend that tricked me into going to the first church. He was like, we need somebody to sit in on guitar at this like middle school. I was like, why is it a middle school? He’s like, don’t matter. Just grab your guitar and meet me here at 930 on Sunday, blah, blah, blah. And be like, dude, this is a church. Years later, I was deep in the church, but there were pieces to it that kind of pulled you in and help you. But you’ve gone to the point where you felt that God told you, you need to do this thing. This is your calling.

Karmen Michael Smith (32:41.448)
Hahaha!

Karmen Michael Smith (32:57.128)
Mm -hmm.

Nick McGowan (33:07.561)
And I appreciate that you use that word because our callings are larger than us and calling and our purpose is community oriented. It’s not a selfish mission at all. It has to, it has to have community involved in it. So talk to us a bit about what that looked like for you to be able to work through those things and understand that God’s calling you to do this. And you’re like, but God, this stuff happened over here. And how,

Karmen Michael Smith (33:07.624)
Yes.

Karmen Michael Smith (33:12.04)
Mm -hmm.

Karmen Michael Smith (33:20.168)
Absolutely.

Karmen Michael Smith (33:32.68)
Hmm.

Nick McGowan (33:36.841)
How did that all translate?

Karmen Michael Smith (33:38.728)
Well, like I said, I was like, I, there’s no way I can be a preacher. Like there’s no way. And then I’m, you know, on my journey of seeking and healing and seeking and healing. And it’s like climbing a staircase. I was like, you know, every rung, every round higher and higher, but every level there’s new stuff to tackle. So, I was, I’m not going to say I’m midway through or whatever. I was just on my journey and sitting in the car one day and.

Nick McGowan (33:54.601)
Mm -hmm.

Karmen Michael Smith (34:09.16)
It was like everything quieted around me and I heard what I know to be the voice of God again say, I want you to minister. I really want you to minister, but I want you to do it differently. And I got upset because I’m like, I’m already going through enough stuff. Like now you want me to put myself out there? Like I already have issues with safety and then you want me to put myself out there as a gay minute? Like, no, like clearly. And it took.

Nick McGowan (34:30.249)
That’s when you know it’s real. Yeah.

Karmen Michael Smith (34:39.144)
some while to really like sit with that and wrestle with it and coming to how am I going to do this? How am I going to do it differently? I only know what I see in the church and I knew that that like inherently was not my path. I knew that the structures and systems that were there needed to be challenged and

I know how churches work, the Deacon board and the trustee board. I was never going to be able to survive one of those meetings with all of my changes and structures that need to be re -imagined. And so I started thinking, you know, maybe I could work at Apple because, you know, Steve Jobs has a really like re -imagined and rethinking things. And I got a job working at Apple and I’m working there. And then maybe I could get a job at not realizing it was like a little butterfly.

I was picking up bits of pollen for the journey. But maybe like two, no, five years later, I went to seminary because a minister friend of mine who saw me, truly saw me say it, I think you should go and study. You would study for anything else, why not go study? So I was like, okay, well, I’ll go to seminary. She was like, you should go to Union Theological Seminary. That’s the only place for you. Like you’re gonna be able to be you. And so I’m like, okay, I applied, I got in and I’m, I know nothing about it.

Nick McGowan (35:35.849)
Mm -hmm.

Nick McGowan (35:59.305)
Nice.

Karmen Michael Smith (36:03.048)
I’m just like being guided this entire time and started a new therapist then who takes me on this thing about the trauma brain and tells me about my reactions and how I respond to things and how it’s systematic for my body. And so that’s influencing me. And so to be able to get to a point where I can say, yes, I’m a minister, still didn’t happen until years after seminary, because I kept thinking because of my stuff.

I’m not good enough. People are going to immediately attack me. I don’t know enough. Maybe I need to know more. And what I realized is, which I call it a calling, is that James Cone, Richard Ward, many theologians will say, God loves things by becoming them. God loved us enough that God became us. And I thought that’s a beautiful statement. But again, took years later to realize when I was sitting in my bedroom,

Nick McGowan (36:34.313)
Mmm.

Karmen Michael Smith (37:03.432)
about 16 years old, laying there to go to bed, I remember feeling like I want to be pleasing to God and I can’t be and be gay. And so I prayed like many other gay people had, God, please take these gay feelings away. But I had a plan. I am going to lay here. It’s probably eight o ‘clock. I’m just going to lay still here in the dark until I fall asleep. So it gives you time to do what you need to do. And when I wake up in the morning,

These feelings will be gone. If you love me, you will take these feelings away from me. And I woke up the next day and nothing had happened. And I internalized that as…

God is so mad at me that God won’t even answer my prayer.

But when I fast forward to see all of this journey, I say, and I’ll say this precursor, this disrupts a lot of people’s thinking, but I was called to be gay because if God loves things by becoming them, the church talks about gay people, doesn’t talk to gay people. The church doesn’t minister to the gay people in their congregation. There’s no programming.

There’s no way to reach, no one’s reaching out. People are just telling you that you’re wrong. And God said, I need someone who understands my people, who is willing to talk to my people and minister to my people. And so I’m going to call you to go through all of that stuff you’re going through so that you understand what it is to be on the outside and understand what it is to be marginalized and understand what it is to struggle with your gayness. Why you’re trying to pray this away, I’m equipping you.

Karmen Michael Smith (38:49.704)
for something greater than you, which is your call. And so when I say that people get upset, but I’m like, I’m called to be gay because I’m here to minister to the Q plus community, because no one else wants to talk to them.

Nick McGowan (39:06.505)
I love that you’re doing what you’re doing and love that you’re actually sitting in that and working through that. What a beautiful way to be able to look at it. And I can guarantee that there are people, I hope they’re not the people that listen to this at all. I can almost guarantee that they’re not, but I’m sure there are people that would be like, no, that’s wrong. That’s not how this is based on the system that they’re in and the privilege that they have.

Karmen Michael Smith (39:31.944)
Mm -hmm.

Nick McGowan (39:34.089)
And also the conditioning and the traumas that they’ve gone through that have literally beaten them into a mold of no, that doesn’t make any sense. It’s almost as silly as like the white Jesus. That doesn’t make any sense. He didn’t grow up in Boston. Doesn’t make any sense. It just doesn’t. Yeah, there was no way. I mean, the sun is really hot over there.

Karmen Michael Smith (39:49.944)
Right.

Karmen Michael Smith (39:55.72)
He was just an anomaly in the Middle East.

Nick McGowan (40:02.089)
There was no way he was like ultra pale white. It just doesn’t make any sense. But even thinking about how things have been interpreted from the Bible specifically to be the way that they want them to be. I’m sure we could probably get into a whole other episode of what happened in the 15th century where books were omitted, books were changed, things were adapted and they were like, well, this is what we want. So this is what we’re going to push. And this is how this is. And then, yeah.

Karmen Michael Smith (40:28.552)
This is our agenda.

Nick McGowan (40:30.697)
And then that just became generational trauma. And that woman then years and years later says shit to you as a nine year old. And here you are following your calling where God is leading you to be and leading the people, leading literally his beloved people to be able to be who you are. That’s beautiful stuff, but that’s tough. I think everybody has issues with whatever they do and whatever they’re trying to figure out. And especially when you’re on your path toward your calling and…

Karmen Michael Smith (40:52.2)
it is.

Nick McGowan (41:00.009)
and trying to figure out what your calling is, sometimes you’ll get some of that shit where God’s like, I want you to do this. And you’ll be like, are you kidding me? What? Me? Yeah, this doesn’t make any sense. Yeah, exactly, next. And he’s like, all right, cool, I’m gonna come back to you and we’ll keep working through this thing, because this is what you’re here for. So also, there’s just a lot that we can get into with that. We’re getting closer to the end of this interview and I appreciate you being on. As.

Karmen Michael Smith (41:06.184)
Right. Are you sure? No. Wrong address.

Karmen Michael Smith (41:26.792)
Thank you.

Nick McGowan (41:28.393)
As we kind of wrap things up, what’s that piece of advice you’d give to somebody that’s on their path towards self -mastery?

Karmen Michael Smith (41:35.496)
that everything you have been through and everything you are currently going through and will ever experience is feeding what you’re supposed to be doing. It may not be clear now, it may look flighty to other people, I call it the butterfly effect, you worked at this job, you worked this job, then you did this, but it’s all informing. And when your personality,intersects and like has the boom moment with your purpose, then it will all be clear for you. And then it’s going to be another journey to the next purpose. I don’t believe you just have one, but I would say these light afflictions, these disruptions into your life. I tell everyone in every one of my talks, let disruption be the catalyst for your liberation. And when I mean liberation, I mean to be the, your greatest highest self.

Nick McGowan (42:10.473)
Mm -hmm.

Karmen Michael Smith (42:29.992)
If you are super religious, then you understand this in a different perspective, but resurrection, letting go of that old skin of who you had to be and how you had to be to reveal your truest, most divine self in your purpose. I equate that with coming out the closet, letting go of that old skin, that mask to become your truest, most divine self so that God can use you as you are. We all have coming out experiences. And so allow these disruptions.

these people cutting you off in traffic or being stuck in the line or these bricks coming down, you’ve got this beautiful plan, but allow it to be disrupted because it really is working for you, pushing you towards the liberation into your most truest highest self. So let disruption be the catalyst for your liberation.

Nick McGowan (43:19.849)
Beautiful. What a great way to put that. Before I let you go, where can people find you and where can they connect with you?

Karmen Michael Smith (43:26.728)
I have a website, Carmen with a K, so carmenmichael .com. And I’m working on a pop -up series here in DC, Poor Culture, blessed of the poor in spirit, because theirs is the kingdom of God. So, poorculture .com. And I’m on Instagram and TikTok at carmenstagram. So, you know, just check me out. I’m there.

Nick McGowan (43:47.561)
Awesome. Carmen, it’s been great having you on. I appreciate you being with us today. Thank you.

Karmen Michael Smith (43:51.528)
Thanks for having me.