Humans Behind the Metrics

What happens when a student becomes so engaged with an online course that the company accidentally hires their own best case study?

Meet Quinn Palmer, who took a Growclass growth marketing course 4.5 years ago, became deeply involved as a community volunteer, and now leads the very marketing team that once targeted her as a customer. 

As Senior Manager of Growth Marketing at Growclass, she's living proof of her company's promise: 83% of graduates get promoted or land new jobs within six months.

In this episode, Charlene Ormo explores Quinn Palmer's full-circle journey from freelancer seeking upskilling to marketing leader.

They dive into how Quinn's student experience shapes her marketing philosophy, why she calls Growclass 'a friendship company cosplaying as education,' and the exact community-building strategies that transformed her career trajectory twice."

If you're wondering how authentic community building can drive both personal growth and business results, Quinn breaks down the exact playbook.

Today, Charlene sits down with someone who's mastered the art of blending strategy with soul in an increasingly metrics-obsessed world. Quinn Palmer is the Senior Manager of Growth Marketing at Growclass, former growth marketer at Interval, and host of the "Say It, I Dare You" podcast. But what sets her apart isn't just her ability to move numbers---it's how she builds authentic community while hitting aggressive KPIs and refuses to sacrifice human connection for conversion rates.

They dive deep into everything from Quinn's "friendship company cosplaying as an education company" philosophy to why she fires underpaying clients (thanks to community support), to how organizing Christmas parties translates directly to growth marketing success. Plus, the simple truth that changed everything: "It's not that serious."

If you've ever wondered how to balance authentic relationship building with data-driven results while maintaining the heart that got you into marketing in the first place, this 42-minute conversation is pure gold.

• Hosts "Crossover Episodes" in Real Life - Her term for mixing different friend groups at parties, which is exactly how she approaches community building at work.
• Got Hired by Her Own Case Study - Jokes that Growclass "accidentally swiped their best case study" when they hired her---she was such an engaged community member that they made her the person running the community.
• Works at a "Friendship Company Cosplaying as Education" - Her exact description of Growth Class, where community members become genuine friends who attend each other's weddings.
• Needed Five Strangers to Fire a Bad Client - Brought her people-pleasing struggle to a Solo Marketers Club where people she'd just met spent an entire hour convincing her she deserved better rates.
• Has a Favorite Food Philosophy for Sales - Believes you're more likely to close a deal by asking someone about their favorite dumplings than by pitching your product first (her favorite answer: any type of dumpling, anywhere, anytime).

"You don't make relationships with people to get things from them. You make the relationships to be able to give things to them." - Quinn Palmer

[02:30] - Beyond the LinkedIn titles: Who Quinn is as a wife, partner, friend, and community builder at her core.

[08:15] - The superpower of organizing: How the same skills that plan family Christmas translate to building marketing communities that drive revenue.

[14:45] - From cold corporate to warm community: Why Growclass showed her marketing doesn't have to be slimy or purely numbers-focused.

[18:20] - The customer interview philosophy: Understanding pain points before pricing, and why they interview customers years after purchase.

[25:30] - Impact-driven business model: 83% job placement rate, $37K average raises, and why good karma actually drives revenue.

[29:15] - Entrepreneurship vs. startup life: Why she chose full-time over freelancing and plans to return to entrepreneurship later.

[32:45] - The scholarship strategy: $100K+ in company scholarships plus government funding, and how to keep free students engaged.

[36:20] - Building genuine connection through screens: Creating authentic relationships in digital communities and getting people to wedding-level friendships.

[40:10] - Standing for something specific: Being unapologetically aligned with diversity and inclusion, knowing they're not for everyone.

[42:15] - Feelings drive metrics: Why the emotion is the outcome, not the other way around, and leading with kindness over greed.

1. Lead with helping, not selling. Before crafting your next campaign, ask "How can I help people?" instead of "How do I get them to buy?" When you genuinely solve problems and serve your audience, conversions follow naturally.
2. Interview customers at every stage. Don't just collect data---have real conversations with customers before purchase, after purchase, and years later. Understanding their true pain points and transformations will guide authentic messaging that resonates.
3. Build community, not just audiences. Create spaces where your customers can connect with each other, get support, and form genuine relationships. When people feel known and supported, they become your strongest advocates and most loyal customers.

• Company: https://growclass.co/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/quinn-palmer/
• Instagram: @QuinnPalmer
• Podcast: Say It, I Dare You: https://podcasts.apple.com/dk/podcast/say-it-i-dare-you/id1712302600 

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/charleneormo
• LEADX Media: https://www.leadxmedia.co/

Ever wonder what it looks like to turn vulnerability into your greatest business asset while building brands that feel like conversations with your best friend?

Today, Charlene sits down with someone who's not just building marketing campaigns—she's building movements rooted in authentic storytelling and human connection. Hurriyeh Iftikhar is the founding marketing lead at Siena AI, former marketing leader at LiveLike, and a proud Pakistani-Canadian who landed every major job through shameless cold outreach. But what sets her apart isn't just the tech—it's how she calls herself "the most fortunate person in the room" and believes the universe conspires to help you achieve your dreams.

They chat about everything from Hurriyeh's grandfather's challenge that changed her life to why her hands still shake before presentations (despite everyone calling her confident), to how visualization and team psychology turned an "impossible" campaign into their biggest success.

If you've wondered what it means to bring your whole self to work while navigating constant change, this conversation is for you.

Meet Hurriyeh Iftikhar — In 5 Fun Facts

• Landed Every Job Through LinkedIn DMs - Has never gotten a major position through traditional applications. Every opportunity started with a cold message saying what she loves about the brand and what they're doing wrong.
• Still Gets the Shakes Before Presentations - Despite being called "confident" by everyone, admits her hands tremble before every important call or presentation. She's just learned to mask it over time.
• Printed Success Mantras for Her Team - Asked team members how they'd feel achieving an impossible goal, then had "I'm a f*cking genius" graphics printed for everyone when they hit 39,280 leads instead of the client's 15,000 target.
• Her Professional and Personal DISC Were Identical - Was the only leader at Sienna AI whose work and personal personalities matched almost exactly. Refuses to have an "on/off" button for different personas.
• Dreams in Econometrics Stories - Turned advanced econometrics into storytelling by viewing numbers as narratives about the future and past, making her feel like she has "superpower to see what's coming."

"There's power in being yourself and being authentic and being vulnerable. It's not your weakness. It actually helps you be more proud of who you are." - Hurriyeh Iftikhar

[00:07:15] - The grandfather's challenge: The conversation that changed everything—from comfort in Pakistan to chasing dreams in Canada.

[00:12:30] - Brutal job rejection reality: How graduating with honors led to crushing rejections and what her grandfather taught her about jumping pads.

[00:19:45] - The shameless cold email strategy: Being brutally honest about what you love and what they're doing wrong in outreach messages.

[00:23:40] - The COVID career pivot: Working with Pakistani startups during lockdown and how the universe conspired to bring her back to Canada.

[00:28:45] - The 45,000 lead campaign psychology: How visualization, team mantras, and reverse engineering turned impossible into achievable.

[00:32:15] - The LAQS methodology: Listen, Audit, Quantitative analysis, Systematize, Scale—her framework for every decision.

[00:35:20] - Hands still shake confession: The vulnerability behind the confidence everyone sees and why authenticity is her superpower.

[00:38:15] - Brand philosophy revolution: Why brands should hold candles instead of megaphones and ask "How was your day?"

[00:42:30] - Following passion vs. auditing passion: Balancing dreams with reality and making life modular to achieve long-term goals.

3 Key Things You Can Apply Today

1. Be shameless about what you want. Don't take rejections personally and don't let shame stop you from reaching out. You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. Cold outreach with brutal honesty about what you love and what could be better often opens unexpected doors.
2. Bring your whole self to work. Stop trying to have different personas for professional and personal life. Your authenticity and vulnerability are superpowers, not weaknesses. The right companies will value you for who you really are.
3. Back your dreams with data. Be a dreamer, but always support your vision with quantitative analysis. Use the LAQS method: Listen to stakeholders, Audit current reality, do Quantitative analysis, Systematize your approach, then Scale what works.

• Company: https://siena.cx/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hurriyehiftikhar/
• Currently offering free mentoring sessions

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/charleneormo
• LEADX Media: https://www.leadxmedia.co/

Ever wonder what happens when a seasoned Amazon executive trades corporate chaos for toddler tantrums—and discovers it makes him a better marketing leader?

Today, Charlene sits down with someone who's mastered the art of authentic storytelling in an AI-saturated world. Brent Brooks is the Director of Marketing at Texada Software, former Amazon Principal Product Marketer for Alexa Smart Home, and a father of two who took an 8-month career break to focus on fatherhood. But what sets him apart isn't just his tech pedigree—it's how he applies parenting wisdom to marketing strategy and refuses to let his team become "toddlers" while still guiding them like a lighthouse.

They dive deep into everything from Brent's physical ritual of switching to an analog watch each night (his Mr. Rogers moment) to why he tells marketers to "kill your darlings," to how teaching his daughter to cut her nails revealed everything wrong with his leadership style. Plus, the shipping container analogy that simplified Amazon's most complex smart home technology.

If you've ever wondered how to balance authentic storytelling with data-driven results while maintaining work-life boundaries that actually work, this 44-minute conversation is pure gold.

• Has a Physical ‘Mr. Rogers’ Ritual - Switches from Apple Watch to analog watch every evening at 5:30pm, leaves all devices downstairs, and asks his kids "How was your day?" to mentally transition from work mode to dad mode.
• Took 8 Months Off for Fatherhood - Left his Amazon role to be a full-time dad, which taught him patience and how to "guide the ship but let them sail it" with his marketing team.
• Calls Himself a Professional Storyteller - Been listed as "storyteller" in his LinkedIn profile for years and believes you're getting old when you tell the same stories repeatedly—so he actively seeks new adventures.
• Mastered the Shipping Container Analogy - Simplified Amazon's complex Matter smart home standard by comparing it to global shipping logistics, making technical concepts accessible to everyone.
• Learned Leadership from Nail Clipping - Realized he doesn't remember when he started cutting his own nails as a kid, which taught him to let his team struggle and learn rather than doing everything for them.

"You don't know if I'm real until you meet me in person. And so taking that stance means I have to be hyper vigilant in all of my campaigns to make sure I'm leveraging something real." - Brent Brooks

[00:02:30] - The storyteller identity: Why Brent calls himself a storyteller first and how new adventures prevent boring repeated stories.

[00:08:15] - Falling into marketing accidentally: From Econ/Poly Sci degree to discovering the dopamine rush of successful campaigns and real-time analytics.

[00:14:45] - Balancing creativity with data: The modern attribution challenge and why you have to trust your story will resonate over time.

[00:18:20] - Career journey strategy: From local automotive to global Amazon—each step building on the previous skillset.

[00:25:30] - Texada's growth engine philosophy: Selling "through to" the customer that matters and competing on growth paths, not features.

[00:29:15] - The authenticity crisis: Fighting AI content noise with face-to-face events and real customer stories.

[00:32:45] - The analog watch boundary ritual: Physical separation techniques and the Mr. Rogers mentality for work-life transitions.

[00:36:20] - Eight months of fatherhood lessons: How parenting taught patience and the "guide but let them sail" leadership philosophy.

[00:40:10] - The lighthouse leadership analogy: Shining light on team members while staying grounded in experience and belief systems.

[00:42:15] - Two core pieces of advice: Get your positioning story straight and trust your authenticity above all else.

1. Create physical transition rituals. Like Brent's analog watch switch, build concrete boundaries between work and personal life. Block 5:30-8:30pm for family time, leave devices in another room, and ask "How was your day?" to mentally shift contexts.
2. Guide the ship, let them sail it. Give your team the lighthouse (vision and experience) but let them figure out which sails to use and what direction to take. Failure is okay until it starts repeating—then course-correct with stories and data.
3. Make complex simple with analogies. When explaining your product or strategy, find universal analogies everyone knows (like shipping containers). Take the most complex part of what you do and elevate it to something everybody can picture immediately.

• Company: https://www.texadasoftware.com/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bbesquared/ 

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/charleneormo
• LEADX Media: https://www.leadxmedia.co/

Ever wonder what it looks like to lead with both data and deep humanity across decades of tech evolution?

Today, Charlene sits down with someone who's not just led multi-million and billion-dollar businesses—he's guided thousands of humans through waves of technological change that reshaped entire industries. Charles Stucki is the Head of Marketing at Neeve, former VP at Cisco, and ex-McKinsey partner. But what sets him apart isn't the titles—it's how he calls himself "the Forrest Gump of tech" and speaks six languages just to connect deeper with people around the world.

They chat about everything from Charles's "get it right this time" philosophy to why he thinks ChatGPT is disrupting marketing in ways no one's talking about yet, to how watching Mary Poppins taught him to be a better father to four daughters.

 If you've wondered what it means to stay humble while navigating constant change, this conversation is for you.

Meet Charles Stucki — In 5 Fun Facts

• Witnessed PCs the Size of Suitcases - Used laptops that were literally suitcase-sized at Arthur Andersen doing audits with scissors and brass brads before computers changed everything.
• Learned Italian for a Cruise - Decided he wanted to talk to locals on a 12-day Italy trip, so he taught himself Italian in two months. Now speaks six languages total.
• Swears by Mary Poppins for Parenting - Tells every father to watch this Disney movie to understand how to raise kids. Used it as his guide for raising four daughters successfully.
• Practices Languages Every Single Day - Has a daily routine where he practices one language every day and cycles through all six every week. It's his version of staying human while working.
• Thinks ChatGPT Broke Marketing - Believes AI replacing Google search will destroy everything marketers know, but admits nobody has figured out how to game ChatGPT rankings yet.

"I want to do the right thing in the right way, and rather than trying to have been right all along, I want to get it right this time."- Charles Stucki

[00:02:15] - The goldfish athlete philosophy: Charles's core principle of learning from the past but clearing your mind to focus on present reality.

[00:06:30] - Treating people as partners, not competitors: How viewing colleagues and clients as neighbors rather than threats transforms leadership.

[00:12:45] - The art of selective listening: Why Charles won Cisco's collaboration award and how to listen to understand, not confirm.

[00:18:20] - Leading on two teams simultaneously: Managing up to boards while leading down to thousands of employees.

[00:25:40] - The Forrest Gump of tech: How Charles witnessed every major tech wave from PCs to AI without being the cause.

[00:32:15] - Navigating waves of change: Three principles for staying informed during rapid technological transformation.

[00:38:50] - The ChatGPT marketing disruption: Why search replacement threatens everything marketers know about reaching customers.

[00:44:25] - The Groundhog Day language philosophy: How watching Bill Murray led to learning six languages and becoming a better human.

[00:48:30] - Mary Poppins parenting wisdom: What every father can learn about structure, affection, and adventure from a Disney classic.

3 Key things you can apply today

1. Listen to understand, not confirm. Before any important decision, ask yourself: "Am I listening to validate what I already think, or am I genuinely trying to understand something new?" Seek out people who challenge your assumptions, not those who agree with you.
2. Get it Right this time. Learn from the past but don't get stuck there. Clear your mind like a "goldfish athlete" and focus on the current reality and challenges you're actually facing right now, not what worked before.
3. Choose your Groundhog Day growth. Since you'll be working for decades anyway, pick one thing that will make you a better human being in 10-20 years. Practice it daily, whether it's learning languages, music, or any skill that brings meaning to your repetitive work days.

• Company: https://neeve.ai/ 
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/charles-stucki/ 

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/charleneormo
• LEADX Media: https://www.leadxmedia.co/

Ever wonder what happens when someone actually builds operations around people instead of the other way around?

Today, Charlene sits down with someone who's not just building better companies—he's rethinking how people experience work itself. Max Trudel is the COO and co-founder of Evolia, a company reshaping how businesses approach scheduling, time management, and the human side of operations. 

Beyond the title, Max is a university lecturer and radio host, and what sets him apart isn't just what he does or what he builds, it's how he builds it. With heart, with intention, and with a deep respect for the humans behind every metric.

They chat about everything from Max's early days saying yes to random opportunities, to the hard conversations that come with scaling a team, to why he still visits customers in person.

 If you've wondered what it really means to design a workplace that puts people first, this conversation is for you.

Meet Max Trudel — In 5 Fun Facts

• The Corner Office Kid - While other kids played with toys, Max grew up literally in the corner of his dad's entrepreneurial office. This explains why spreadsheets and business plans feel more natural to him than most people's childhood bedrooms. DNA-level entrepreneurship is real, folks.
• The Pandemic Radio Rebel - When COVID locked everyone behind screens, Max's solution? Start a radio show to meet "real people in real life." Because apparently Zoom fatigue hits different when you're used to being a people person. His cure for digital isolation was going analog.
• The Side-Gig Professor - Most university lecturers tell students to focus on studies. Max actively encourages his students to launch side businesses—then sometimes hires them later. It's like career matchmaking but with extra homework and entrepreneurial chaos.
• The ‘Yes Man’ Evangelist - Max took the Jim Carrey movie "Yes Man" as a life philosophy, not entertainment. He says yes to opportunities first and figures out how they connect later. Spoiler alert: they always connect, just not how you'd expect.
• The SaaS Field Trip Leader - While most SaaS founders worship metrics from their desks, Max actually visits customers to watch them use his product in real life. He wants to see people's faces when they interact with his software, not just their usage statistics.

[00:02:30] - Max's entrepreneurial DNA: Growing up in his dad's office and the natural pull toward entrepreneurship that shaped his entire approach to business.

[00:06:45] - The power of saying yes: How saying yes to seemingly disconnected opportunities creates unexpected career connections and growth.

[00:12:20] - Finding balance as co-founders: The natural division between product and sales that allowed Evolia to grow in a balanced way from the start.

[00:18:10] - Operations as human empowerment: Max's unique perspective on operations being fundamentally about removing friction for people.

[00:23:40] - The empathy of difficult decisions: How firing people with empathy can actually be an act of care for both the individual and the team.

[00:28:15] - Scaling without losing innovators: Keeping problem-solvers and creative thinkers engaged as your company specializes and grows.

[00:35:20] - Partnership communication secrets: Why most agency relationships fail and how to build true partnerships with external providers.

[00:42:10] - Getting out of the SaaS bubble: The power of visiting customers in person to see real impact beyond metrics.

3 Key things you can apply today

1. Remove Friction, Don't Create It. Evaluate every process and system through the lens of human experience. Ask: "Does this help our people deploy their full potential, or does it create unnecessary barriers?" Focus on automating bureaucracy so human connections can thrive.
2. Build Communication Channels, Not Just Meetings. Whether with your team or external partners, create ongoing communication channels (Slack, Discord, etc.) that keep everyone connected between formal meetings. Fast-growing companies change rapidly—weekly check-ins aren't enough.
3. Keep Your Problem-Solvers as You Scale. Don't lose your creative, multi-hat-wearing people as you grow and specialize. Find new ways to challenge them because they're the ones who will help you break through your next growth ceiling.

• Website: https://evolia.com
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/maxtrudel/ 

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/charleneormo
• LEADX Media: https://www.leadxmedia.co/

What if the marketer who's visited 39 countries has discovered the secret to building teams that thrive across time zones and cultures?

Aimen Chouchane went from government advisory to leading marketing at Uptick, serving the fire protection industry across four continents. While other marketers chase generic SaaS playbooks, Aimen discovered his niche audience doesn't live on LinkedIn all day—they're out in the field keeping buildings safe.

Want to know the Wi-Fi research trick that saved his biggest deal? Or how a portable second screen revolutionized his work-travel balance? Aimen shares both.

But wait until you hear about Uptick's mission-driven approach—a company that actually helps keep people safe rather than just peddling software. The philosophy? You'll discover why Aimen refuses to work anywhere that doesn't make the world better.

This isn't your typical marketing interview about funnels and attribution. Discover how a leader blends Tunisian heritage, British pragmatism, and global perspective into marketing strategies that actually work for real people doing real jobs.

"You really can't be a marketer in 2025 if you're not using data... but you still have to use some gut instincts and make some creative calls."

- Aimen Chouchane

• The Country Collector - At 38 turning 39, Aimen's obsessed with keeping his travel count above his age. Currently at 39 countries, he's racing against time—literally. One pandemic slip-up and he was behind, but now he's back on track and plotting his next passport stamp.
• The Wedding Deal Maker - Forget LinkedIn networking events. Aimen's biggest career move happened with a beer in hand at someone's wedding. One friend's startup pitch over cocktails turned into eight years of SaaS marketing madness across four continents.
• The Istanbul Internet Survivor - Nothing teaches you Wi-Fi paranoia like getting yelled at by your boss during a dropped Zoom call. Now Aimen stalks Booking.com reviews searching for "wifi" mentions before booking anything. Turkey taught him the hard way that great download doesn't mean great upload.
• The Rio Sunset Enforcer - Most people say "work-life balance." Aimen says "work until Rio sunset, then beach." His productivity hack? Hard stops that force you to actually finish things instead of pretending to work until midnight.
• The Time Zone Referee - Managing Aussies, Brits, and Americans means someone's always awake and wanting to Slack you. Aimen's solution? Aggressively telling people to stop working after hours because apparently being a good boss means being the productivity police.

[02:30] The Global Marketing Advantage

How traveling to 39 countries transformed Aimen's understanding of customers and cultures. While other marketers rely on personas, Aimen draws from real human experiences across continents to build marketing that resonates with actual people, not demographic data.

[08:15] The Accidental SaaS Journey

From politics degree to government advisory to tech policy consulting, Aimen's career took an unexpected turn when LinkedIn became a client. The revelation that massive companies started as "ideas on a whiteboard" sparked his obsession with early-stage chaos and building something from nothing.

[15:20] Mission-Driven Marketing at Uptick

Why Aimen chose to market fire protection software instead of chasing trendy consumer apps. Uptick keeps public buildings safe by helping companies manage thousands of assets digitally—work that actually matters beyond quarterly metrics and vanity growth.

[20:45] Marketing as Science + Art

Aimen's philosophy on blending data-driven decisions with creative gut instincts. He explains why marketers need budget based on ROI data, but also when to trust intuition for breakthrough ideas that can't be measured until they're tested.

[23:00] The Video-First Pivot

How Aimen's team abandoned written content and PDFs for video-first marketing. With AI summarizing everything, they realized customers need experiences that can't be replicated by ChatGPT—leading to their own industry podcast and in-house video production.

[28:30] Work-Travel Mastery Secrets

The practical systems Aimen uses to work effectively while traveling. From Wi-Fi research tricks to portable second screens, plus Uptick's "4 weeks working elsewhere" policy that turns two-week holidays into month-long adventures.

[32:15] Leading Across Time Zones

How Aimen manages teams in Australia, UK, and US without falling into the "always on" trap. His approach to transparency, trust, and setting boundaries that let people be productive on their own terms while maintaining high standards.

[35:20] Building Careers, Not Just Campaigns

Aimen's behind-the-scenes approach to developing people rather than seeking personal recognition. He shares how he stays connected with former team members and why helping others reach their career peaks matters more than individual accolades.

[36:45] The Niche Market Reality

Why generic SaaS playbooks fail in specialized industries. Fire protection directors don't live on LinkedIn—they're in the field, on phones, visiting sites. Aimen explains how understanding customer behavior patterns beats assuming they follow typical software buyer journeys.

[38:02] Legacy and Life Philosophy

Aimen's simple but powerful life philosophy: enjoy life to the fullest while remembering we're not here forever. He explains how this perspective smooths emotional extremes and helps maintain balance between professional drive and personal fulfillment.

1. Research your audience's actual behavior, not their job titles. Stop assuming your customers behave like you do. Aimen spent his second day at Uptick on-site with customers, noting whether they used iPhones or Android, Mac or PC, what they drank. Build a mental map of real human habits, not demographic assumptions.
2. Set hard boundaries to increase productivity. Whether it's finishing work by sunset in Rio or using scheduling features to avoid after-hours pressure, create clear stops that force you to be more focused during work hours. Trust that constraints breed creativity and efficiency.
3. Choose video over written content in the AI age. With ChatGPT summarizing everything, focus on experiences that can't be replicated by AI. Video, audio, and human connection become more valuable as written content becomes commoditized. Lead with formats that showcase authentic human expertise.

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aimenchouchane/ 
• Website: https://www.uptickhq.com 

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/charleneormo

LEADX Media: https://www.leadxmedia.co/

What if the CMO who calls himself "just a simple guy" has cracked the marketing code that's stumping industry leaders?

Christian Kunkel went from asking "What's a GRP?" to leading Fingercheck through the saturated payroll software market. While other CMOs chase growth hacks, Christian discovered customers were finding them through ChatGPT — not Google or ads. This revelation completely shifted his team's approach to customer discovery.

In this episode, Charlene Ormo interviews Christian Kunkel, a strategic mind who's not just building marketing systems, but reshaping how small businesses thrive. As CMO of Fingercheck, he's leading the charge in making payroll, HR, and financial flexibility accessible for the people who power our economy. But beneath the strategy is a mission rooted in empathy, resilience, and hard-won lessons.

This isn't your typical CMO interview about funnels and attribution. Discover how a marketing leader cut through the noise by returning to what most of us forgot — and the tactics making it work today.

• The GRP Mystery Detective - Day one in marketing: "Go fill a box with GRPs." Christian spent hours wandering the office asking "What's a GRP?" only to discover it was an elaborate prank.
• Jets Obsession Level: Maximum - This die-hard Jets fan believes if they win a Super Bowl in his lifetime, his legacy is complete (right after being a great dad and husband).
• The Support Call Crasher - While other CMOs chose strategy meetings, Christian secretly joins customer support calls for raw marketing gold you can't find anywhere else.
• Comic Book Marketing Genius - Christian literally drew a comic book to explain boring location data because apparently PowerPoints weren't cutting it. Did it generate millions? Of course not. Did customers think it was amazing? Absolutely. Because sometimes the best marketing ideas sound completely ridiculous until they work.
• The Homebody with a Famous Wife - Married to a Jennifer Lopez (not that Jennifer Lopez), Christian prefers quiet nights at home over the hustle and bustle. While the world chases the spotlight, he's found his superpower in the comfort of his living room.

[01:23] The Simplicity Superpower 

Why Christian's approach to breaking down complex problems is his secret weapon in a world of marketing complexity. While other CMOs get lost in sophisticated frameworks, Christian's "simple guy" method cuts through the noise to find solutions that actually work.

[06:02] The Mentorship Multiplier 

How the right guidance transformed Christian's career and why he's obsessed with paying it forward. Christian reveals the specific advice that changed everything for him and how he's using it to build unstoppable marketing teams.

[07:13] The Support Call Gold Mine 

How secretly listening to customer support calls gives Christian marketing insights that million-dollar research can't buy. While other CMOs stay in their ivory towers, Christian gets on the frontlines to hear what customers really think.

[09:00] The "Feel Smarter" Formula 

Christian's counterintuitive definition of good marketing that most CMOs get backwards. Instead of overwhelming prospects with features, he discovered the psychological trigger that makes customers want to buy without feeling sold to.

[10:06] The Ungate Everything Strategy 

Why Christian gives away content for free when everyone else is building walls around theirs. This approach seems crazy until you see the trust and authority it builds—turning prospects into advocates before they even become customers.

[14:40] The ChatGPT Discovery 

How AI completely changed Christian's marketing strategy (and why most marketers are missing this shift). Christian found customers were discovering Fingercheck through AI conversations, not Google searches, forcing a complete rethink of their customer acquisition strategy.

[17:43] The Low-Hanging Fruit Hunt 

Christian's method for finding the easiest wins hiding in plain sight. He shares the specific audit process that consistently uncovers quick victories most marketing teams walk right past.

[19:04] The Daily Activity Death Audit 

His ruthless system for killing activities that waste time and money. Christian's brutal question—"If we stopped doing this, would anyone notice?"—has saved his team countless hours of meaningless busywork.

[22:24] Strategy vs. Execution Showdown 

How Christian balances big-picture thinking with getting stuff done when resources are tight. He reveals the framework small marketing teams can use to stay strategic without drowning in day-to-day execution.

[26:09] The Sales-Marketing Peace Treaty 

Why Christian's relationship with sales is his competitive advantage. Instead of the typical finger-pointing, Christian built a feedback loop that turns sales conversations into marketing gold.

[29:14] The Small Business Mission 

How Fingercheck helps the little guys compete with enterprise solutions. Christian explains why fighting for the underdog isn't just noble—it's brilliant business strategy in a market dominated by giants.

[31:50] From Punch Cards to Digital 

The evolution of time management that's revolutionizing blue-collar work. Christian shares how they're dragging entire industries from paper timesheets into the digital age, one construction site at a time.

[34:05] Work-Life Balance Reality Check 

Christian's honest take on maintaining sanity in the tech hustle. He reveals why treating work-life balance as a marketing strategy actually makes his team more productive and creative.

[38:06] The Legacy Question 

What Christian wants to be remembered for (and why it's not what you'd expect from a CMO). His answer reveals the deeper purpose driving his unconventional marketing approach.

[39:46] The Trust Your Gut Moment 

When to ignore the experts and bet on your own instincts. Christian shares the specific moment he went against conventional wisdom and why it became his biggest breakthrough.

[40:13] The Complexity Trap 

Why simple solutions get complicated and how to avoid the spiral. Christian explains the dangerous pattern that kills good marketing ideas and his system for keeping things elegantly simple.

1. Audit everything with the "Would anyone notice?" test. Go through your marketing activities and honestly ask: if you stopped doing this tomorrow, would anyone even notice? If the answer is no, or if you can't explain why you're doing it in 30 seconds, eliminate it and invest that time in something that actually moves the needle.
2. Make your customers feel smarter, not sold to. Instead of gating valuable content or pushing aggressive sales tactics, focus on genuinely helping your audience solve problems. Provide real value upfront, meet them where they are, and build trust through helpfulness rather than pressure.
3. Stay close to customer conversations. Whether it's joining support calls, reading customer feedback, or talking directly to your audience, maintain regular contact with the human voices behind your metrics. The insights you gain will inform better marketing than any dashboard ever could.

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/christian-kunkel/ 
• Website: https://fingercheck.com/ 
• Blog: Read Christian's marketing insights on the Fingercheck blog

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/charleneormo
• LEADX Media: https://www.leadxmedia.co/

Ever wonder if the key to SaaS success isn't about chasing every new growth hack, but about getting back to basics? Things like showing up, leading by example, and never forgetting that at the end of the day, people buy from people?

That's exactly what Charlene Ormo explores in this episode of Humans Behind the Metrics with Scott Nazdan, Vice President of Product Marketing and Strategic Communications at Panopto. Scott is a seasoned marketing and sales leader who calls himself a "player-coach," and he lives by one core belief: genuine human connection is the foundation of everything.

Scott's journey is truly inspiring. He took Ensemble Video from its early "guerrilla marketing" days in 2007 all the way to a successful acquisition by Panopto in 2020. Imagine a 15-year ride, pushing through constant market education, competitive battles, and the challenge of being ahead of the curve in a market that didn't even realize it needed video management solutions yet!

But here's why Scott's story stands out: He's not just another SaaS executive with a typical "hockey-stick" growth narrative. As a former Division I baseball athlete, he brings that same competitive fire, team-first mentality, and "practice when nobody's watching" work ethic to every single business challenge.

Now at Panopto, he's scaling those very principles, skillfully balancing the raw entrepreneurial hustle with the structure needed to compete in the big leagues. And if that's not enough, he's also a digital marketing professor at Syracuse University and hosts the "Learning Never Stops" podcast. He's someone who genuinely believes the best leaders are right there in the trenches with their teams.

If you're grappling with how to blend your instincts with established systems, maintain your raw drive within a corporate framework, or scale your business while keeping that personal touch, this conversation is your essential playbook.

"There is no secret pill for being great. It really is very simple in sports and in business. It's about the values and how you lead and how you operate daily and consistently. And that usually just means leading by example."

- Scott Nazdan

• The Division I Dreamer. Scott spent years dedicated to baseball, becoming a Division I athlete with professional aspirations — until his body and reality taught him that his real playing field would be business, not baseball.
• The Accidental Entrepreneur. Started in K-12 education, taught himself web design and video production, and stumbled into solving a massive problem in higher education that would become his life's work for 15 years.
• The Digital Deal: How Scott Nadzan Signed Away Ensemble Video with 75 Clicks During COVID. After 15 years of building Ensemble Video, Scott "sold" his company by clicking DocuSign file 75 times during COVID — no handshakes, no champagne, just digital signatures and tears of accomplishment.
• The Professor-Practitioner. While building and scaling his company, Scott has been teaching digital marketing at Syracuse University, staying connected to the next generation of marketers and keeping his skills sharp.
• The 4 AM Warrior. Scott's morning routine starts at 4-5 AM, getting ahead of the day to be productive and ready to serve others when "the bullets are flying" during business hours.

[00:02:54] The Sport of Business Mindset: 

How Scott's Division I baseball background shaped his competitive business approach, applying sports values and Mark Cuban's "sport of business" framework to leadership. Greatness comes from consistent daily values and leading by example.

[00:10:38] Guerrilla Marketing for Startups: 

Master the three phases of early-stage SaaS marketing: Push, Differentiation, and Switch campaigns.

[00:15:07] People Buy From People: The Timeless SaaS Foundation: 

Learn why human relationships are the cornerstone of SaaS growth and how to build genuine, long-term connections.

[00:18:36] Customer Understanding: The Make-or-Break Factor: 

Why deep customer knowledge is crucial for creating content that resonates.

[00:25:05] Board & Executive Relationships: 

Scott's fundamentals for effective communication and planning with leadership.

[00:30:06] Navigating Acquisitions as a Leader: 

An insider's view on the mindset shifts required post-acquisition: "big leagues" mentality, humility, and becoming a valuable team player.

[00:35:32] Passion & Mentorship Post-Acquisition: 

Practical advice for acquired founders on finding your place, identifying mentors, and committing fully to the new ecosystem.

[00:38:51] The Acquisition Experience: 

Scott's emotional story of selling Ensemble Video during COVID, from digital signatures to feeling like winning the Super Bowl.

[00:42:34] Player-Coach Leadership: 

Master Scott's style of leading by example, getting in the trenches, and empowering your team.

[00:45:22] Intentional Time Management: 

Scott's key advice: be highly intentional with your time and focus deeply on what matters most.

[00:47:35] Generative AI in Marketing: 

Scott's perspective on AI tools like elai.io for content creation and enhancing authentic customer engagement.

1. Lead by example as a player-coach. Don't just direct from the sidelines — get in the trenches with your team. Show them how to do the work, practice when nobody's watching, and demonstrate the work ethic you expect from others. Your team will follow what you do, not what you say.
2. Focus on quality metrics over vanity numbers. Instead of chasing leads for the sake of leads, prioritize win rates, conversion rates, and customer lifetime value. Build relationships for the long haul rather than optimizing for short-term transactions — some of Scott's customer relationships span 15+ years.
3. Be intentional with your time and energy. Whether you're running campaigns, developing skills, or building relationships, invest real time and deep focus rather than reacting to every new trend or tactic. Develop genuine expertise and understanding instead of surface-level knowledge.

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/scottnadzan/ 
• Website: https://scottnadzan.com/ 
• Podcast: Learning Never Stops: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLaFAnBT-SoRInrEaXt3nxVFn1B-STETn5 
• AI Tool: elai.io - AI Video Generator for Learning and Development.

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/charleneormo
• LEADX Media: https://www.leadxmedia.co/

What if the secret to AI success isn't about being more machine-like — but about being more authentically human?

In this episode of Humans Behind the Metrics, Charlene Ormo sits down with Saren Sakurai, a creative strategist with a rare blend of left-brain clarity and right-brain magic. He's helped early-stage startups find their voice and guided SaaS companies through pivots that actually work.

But here's what most people don't know: Saren spent over a decade architecting award-winning campaigns for Fortune 100 brands like Coca-Cola, Sony Pictures, and Cisco — launching Sprite's digital presence and reimagining how massive brands connect with people.

Now, he's applying that same creative firepower to AI. Not just as a tool, but as a mindset.

Saren shares why treating AI like a relationship (not a transaction) changes everything, how to infuse humanity into automated processes, and why going broad beats going deep in the age of artificial intelligence.

If you're trying to figure out where AI fits in your growth strategy without losing your soul — this episode breaks it all down.

"Don't believe the hype. Think about the practical. The more you use it, the more you'll see that there's just a certain point where it can't pass humans."

- Saren Sakurai

Meet Saren Sakurai -- In 5 Fun Facts

• Solid background in Liberal Arts 

Saren's father was a liberal arts teacher, and that broad foundation shaped his entire approach — leading him to become one of the most cognitively diverse marketers in tech today.

• The Nike Connection. 

After two years in Japan, Saren set his sights on Nike and spent months trying to get in the door. His persistence paid off, leading to work during the Sydney Olympics with the best creative minds in the industry.

• Fortune 100 Campaign Architect.

Before AI was even a buzzword, Saren was building integrated digital campaigns for massive brands — launching Sprite's digital presence and reimagining Miracle Whip's entire brand experience.

• Early AI Adopter. 

Saren got his AI education working at Cylance, one of the first companies to apply AI to cybersecurity, giving him years of behind-the-scenes experience before ChatGPT hit the scene.

• The Relationship Builder. 

For Saren, AI isn't about transactions — it's about building genuine working relationships with intelligent tools that remember, learn, and grow alongside you.

[02:30] - From Liberal Arts to Marketing: The Power of Going Broad

Discover how Saren's diverse educational background became his secret weapon in navigating everything from Nike campaigns to AI strategy — and why breadth beats depth in today's rapidly changing landscape.

[08:45] - The Nike Journey: Breaking Into the Big Leagues

Learn about Saren's persistence in landing his dream job at Nike, and the valuable advice he received about "playing in the minor leagues" before making it to the majors.

[12:20] - Early AI Exposure: Learning from the Inside Out

Explore Saren's experience at Cylance, where he got an inside look at AI applications in cybersecurity long before the current AI boom — and how that shaped his practical approach.

[18:10] - Beyond the Hype: The Reality of AI Implementation

Cut through the fear and overhype surrounding AI with Saren's grounded perspective on what AI can and can't do, and why humans remain central to the equation.

[29:40] - The RAG Revolution: Training AI on Your Business

Learn about Retrieval-Augmented Generation (RAG) and how feeding AI your company documents, brand voice, and specific data creates a customized business intelligence system.

[41:20] - The Content Volume Advantage: Testing at Scale

Explore how AI enables testing 20 campaigns instead of 3, leading to better data, faster insights, and more successful outcomes through accelerated trial and error.

[46:30] - Leading Teams Through AI Adoption

Get insights on creating safe spaces for AI experimentation, staying ahead as a leader, and helping team members overcome their fears about AI implementation.

[58:45] - The Future of AI in Marketing and SaaS

Peek into Saren's vision for the next phase of AI development — from agents to innovation to full organizational AI — and why staying optimistic matters.

1. Treat AI like a relationship, not a transaction. Start building ongoing relationships with AI tools by using their memory features and training them on your specific business context. Feed them your brand voice, company documents, and communication style to create personalized AI assistants.
2. Go broad, not deep, in your skill development. In an AI world, cognitive diversity beats narrow expertise. Learn widely across different areas and use AI to enhance your adjacent skills, creating your own "bot team" that amplifies your capabilities.
3. Maintain humanity in your AI-powered processes. Even when using AI for content creation or lead generation, infuse authentic human elements — personal details, imperfections, and genuine passion — to stand out in an increasingly automated world.

• Website: saren.ai
• Website: https://www.wethos.ai/ 
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/saren/ 
• Open to 30-minute conversations for advice and learning exchanges

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/charleneormo
• LEADX Media: https://www.leadxmedia.co/

What if hitting your first million isn’t just about the numbers — but about the people behind them?

In this episode of Humans Behind the Metrics, Charlene Ormo chats with Gus Byleveld, Chief Revenue Officer at JourneyApps, to explore the often-overlooked human side of reaching $1M in sales.

Instead of focusing on sales tactics and funnels, they talk about what really drives growth — understanding your buyers, building real relationships, and meeting people where they are. Gus shares how empathy, self-awareness, and honest reflection create a strong foundation for a business that lasts.

This isn’t your usual sales conversation.

Gus opens up about what it’s like to lead with heart in the fast-paced, high-pressure world of tech — and why a human-centered approach matters more than ever in a cutthroat industry.

If you’re a founder or leader who believes that behind every metric is a story — this one’s for you.

Let’s dive in.

Meet Gus Byleveld – In 5 Fun Facts

• From Blueprints to Business Deals. Gus didn’t start in sales — he actually began his career in architecture! But curiosity (and a big leap of faith) led him into the world of tech, where he’s now the Chief Revenue Officer at JourneyApps.

• South Africa to the U.S. Born and raised in South Africa, Gus moved to the U.S. to test his skills in one of the most competitive markets in tech. Talk about growth mindset!

• “I Speak Funny” That’s Gus’s way of breaking the ice. His accent? He owns it — and uses it to spark conversations, build trust, and lighten the mood in high-stakes meetings.

• Big Problems, Clear Solutions. With 20+ years in enterprise software, Gus has a reputation for untangling complex business problems with calm, clarity, and confidence.

• People Over Process. For Gus, success isn’t just about the numbers. He believes in the power of real relationships and a human-centered approach — even in a cutthroat industry.

[02:15] - From Blueprints to Breakthroughs: Gus’s Journey from Architecture to Tech

Discover how Gus Byleveld made the leap from a career in architecture to the fast-paced world of technology—and how this pivot shaped the way he sees systems, strategy, and people.

[05:35] - Moving to the U.S.: Challenges and Opportunities. 

Gain insights into Gus's decision to move to the U.S. and the challenges he faced in building a network from scratch.

[09:40] - Why Solving Problems is the Heart of Business Development

More than just a sales function, Gus shares how approaching business development as problem-solving deepens client relationships and creates meaningful, long-term impact.

[21:55] - “Meet them where they are’: Earning Trust in High-Stakes Sales

Gus breaks down how he builds trust and rapport with clients—and why emotional intelligence is just as critical as closing techniques in complex sales.

[27:12 - The Hero Sale: When Founders Become the Face of the Deal

Unpack the “hero sale” concept and how founders play a unique, irreplaceable role in early-stage growth and customer buy-in.

[32:20] - Turning Data Into Direction

Explore how Gus uses data—not just to track metrics, but to guide strategy, optimize performance, and stay aligned with what actually drives revenue.

[45:09] - Scaling with Clarity: How Self-Evaluation Shapes a $1M Business Journey

As businesses push past the $1M mark, the real question becomes: Is this scalable? Is this repeatable? Gus shares how consistent self-evaluation—not just of systems, but of self—has helped him (and the teams he leads) determine what’s truly working, what needs to evolve, and how to align the process with long-term growth. It’s not just about closing the next deal; it’s about building a business that can scale with integrity.

[46:40] - Keep the Conversation Going: Connect with Gus

Get direct access to Gus’s work and thoughts on leadership, business development, and the people behind performance.

[48:00] - A Vision Rooted in Learning and Community

Gus shares his bigger mission: building spaces where learning never stops, and where driven people can grow together—beyond the metrics.

• Embrace a human-centered approach in business. Recognize that successful business development is rooted in understanding and building relationships with your customers. Focus on their needs and challenges to create lasting partnerships.

• Prioritize continuous learning as a leader. Stay adaptable and open to new ideas. The landscape of technology and business is always changing, and being willing to learn will keep you ahead of the curve.

• Cultivate community and a supportive team environment. Surround yourself with talented individuals who challenge you and bring diverse perspectives. Foster a culture of collaboration and open communication to drive innovation and growth.

• Website:https://journeyapps.com/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gusbyleveld/ 
• Personal email: [email protected]

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/charleneormo 
• LEADX Media: https://www.leadxmedia.co/