On this episode of the podcast, I talk with two members of the band The Ruralists, Luke Hawley and Laremy Devries, about their new album, Trying. You may recognize the name and their music from the intro and the outro of this podcast. This was the 40th episode of the podcast, and we recorded it live on the stage of the B.J. Haan auditorium at Dordt University, with a small studio audience. They play three songs off the new album (lyrics below) and we discuss, along the following topics:

• The story of the band, the name of the band, and the name of the album

Get the album: https://fullyruralized.bandcamp.com/album/trying

Listen to the album: https://www.fullyruralized.com/trying 

More on the band: https://www.fullyruralized.com 

***Special thanks to Alex Priore, Jack Underwood, and the production arts team who made the event happen with excellent quality and stellar style.***

Lyrics to "Murmur"

You’re a murmur of starlings

Darling

All your ever-shifting parts

A work of modern art

That I cannot understand

And I can’t look away

Or convey

All my slip-sliding thoughts

All twisted up in knots

Explaining how I feel

So I’ll keep writing you all these love songs

All my life long

Trying to get it right

And you’ll keep asking me

Why I do it

Why I can’t quit

But I just don’t know how

It’s just like breathing now

I’m an old tv set

Trying to get

The picture to come in

With strips of kitchen tin

Wrapped around my ears

But it’s mostly just snow

Even though I’m giving it my best

I just haven’t got it yet

As clear as it can be

So I’ll keep writing you all these love songs

All my life long

Trying to get it right

And you’ll keep asking me

Why I do it

Why I can’t quit

But I just don’t know how

It’s just like breathing now

There’s a word that I learned

From a friend

About saying what you’ve got

By saying what it’s not

Possible to say

So then all that I know

I suppose

Of language and of rhyme

Of being and of time

Means nothing without you

Lyrics to "Mother Mary"

I keep trying to see the face

Of mother mary full of grace

In an apple core

In a sticky bun

In a stretch of clouds

In the setting sun

But all that’s there is just the flesh and peel

Just the carmeled crust and the pink and teal of harvest dust

I keep trying to tell you how

I have always loved you like I love you now

But my tongue gets thick and my brain brain goes slack

And all these words come out bric-a-brac

And all that’s there is just the metaphor

It’s not the whole of you 

It’s not the crux and core

It’s not the through and through

I keep trying to understand

How a dram of atoms makes the man

And the woman too

Is that the whole of us?

Just a clump of dirt?

Just a cloud of dust?

And that’s there is just some chemistry

The arithmetic of you and me

And the human heart is just a fine machine

Not a work of art filled with kerosene

Not a mystery of colossal scope

Not a duffel bag of fear and hope

Not a megaphone of love and hate

Not a talisman to keep us safe

Not a rattletrap always breaking down

Not a spiderweb 

Not a shantytown

Not a creaking bridge

Not a tank brigade

Not an oracle

Not a masquerade

Just a thing that bangs and beats and pounds

And throbs and churns and wails and sounds

And maybe all we are is dust

Maybe that’s the whole of us

But maybe we are magic too

Impossible and completely true

Through and through

Lyrics to "People are People Too"

People are people too

Just like me and you

From the tops of our heads

To the foot of our beds

People are people too

You seem to think they’re not

You seem to think they’re not

You treat them like things

And not human beings

But people are people too

Of course it’s the same for me

Of course it’s the same for me

It’s hard to admit

But I often forget

That people are people too

So then what can be done

So then what can be done

Just what do we need

For us to agree

That people are people too

People are people too

Just like me and you

From the buds of our tongues

To the air in our lungs

People are people too

People are really strange

People are really strange

We do what we won’t

And believe what we don’t

But people are people too

Sometimes they drive you nuts

Sometimes they drive you nuts

So we try to negate

With our labels and hate

But people are people too

Time here is really short

Time here is really short

So let’s make up a plan

To be as kind as we can

Because people are people too

On this episode of the podcast, I talk with Dr. Jeff Liou about his new book Christianity and Critical Race Theory. There are few topics more contentious than CRT, but in this conversation, we simply seek to demystify the discourse, to understand CRT, and to ask where there might be openings and oppositions for Christian discipleship as we seek to do justice, love mercy, and walk humbly with our God. Among the topics we discuss:

• What is CRT, and why has it become such a lightning rod? How can we demystify it to engage it in a meaningful way?

Get the book: https://bakeracademic.com/p/Christianity-and-Critical-Race-Theory-Robert-Chao-Romero/436007

On this episode of the podcast, I talk with Dr. Alan Noble about his new book, On Getting Out of Bed: The Burden and Gift of Living. Getting out of bed may seem like a simple thing to do, but for many who struggle with mental affliction, getting out of bed is an act of faith and defiance against despair, a testimony to that fact that life is worth facing. Among the topics we discuss:

• The difference between the categories of "mental suffering" and "mental illness" and why there might be a danger in over-relying on the category of mental illness

We hope that whether this is your testimony, or whether you walk with those who struggle to get out of bed, that you find this conversation helpful.

Get the book: https://www.ivpress.com/on-getting-out-of-bed

About Alan Noble: https://www.oalannoble.com/ 

On this episode of the podcast I talk with Dr. David Taylor about his new book, A Body of Praise: Understanding the Role of Our Physical Bodies in Worship. For those of us who tend to think about worship as primarily a matter of the mind or heart, it’s a reminder about the role our physical bodies play in worship. It's an essential conversation, not least after the the upheavals and bodily deprivations of Covid. Among the topics we discuss:

• Why worship is just as much a matter of the body as the head or the heart.

Get the book: https://bakeracademic.com/p/A-Body-of-Praise-W-David-O-Taylor/466164

More about David Taylor: https://www.wdavidotaylor.com/ 

On this episode of the podcast, we are speaking with Dr. Kathryn Wehr, about her new annotated edition of Dorothy Sayers’s The Man Born to Be King, a series of 12 radio plays broadcast and published 80 years ago during the Second World War. It is a fascinating conversation of the unique complexities and tensions of adapting the gospels for dramatic production. Among the topics we discuss:

• Who was Dorothy Sayers? What are some of her works that we should know?

We hope the conversation will encourage everyone to pick up a copy of the plays for themselves, or at least to allow this conversation to lift the film of familiarity from the great and true story that is the gospel.

Get the Wade Annotated Edition: https://www.ivpress.com/the-man-born-to-be-king

Listen to the plays: https://www.amazon.com/Man-Born-Be-King-Collection/dp/B09HSM8FJ9 

Other works by Dorothy Sayers mentioned in the conversation

Lord Peter Wimsey series (15 book series)

Introduction and Translation of Dante's Divine Comedy (Penguin classic)

The Zeal of Thy House

"The Mind of the Maker"

"The Lost Tools of Learning"

Other authors and books and authors mentioned in the conversation:

Gina Dalfanzo, Dorothy and Jack: The Transforming Friendship of Dorothy L. Sayers and C. S. Lewis 

Ronald Gurner, We Crucify!

On this episode of the podcast, we are speaking with the Dr. Jennifer Rosner, about her book Finding Messiah: A Journey into the Jewishness of the Gospel. Dr. Rosner is a Jewish believer in Jesus Christ, and in this episode, she tells us her story, as well as the story of how these two deeply intertwined religious traditions have been torn apart, and what it might mean to weave them back together. Among the topics we discuss:

• Dr. Rosner's story about finding Jesus and rediscovering her Jewish roots

For more about Dr. Rosner: https://www.jenrosner.com/

Get the book: https://www.ivpress.com/finding-messiah

Resources mentioned in this podcast:

Mark S. Kinzer, Jerusalem Crucified Jerusalem Risen

Dallas Willard, The Spirit of the Disciplines

NT Wright, Surprised by Hope

On this episode of the podcast, we interview poet Drew Jackson about his recently published collection of poems (God Speaks Through Wombs and Touch the Earth) in conversation with the gospel of Luke. Among the topics we discuss:

• The role of imagination as a pastor and as a poet

A highlight of this episode is when Drew reads two of his poems so that we can hear them in his voice. 

Get the new collection: https://www.ivpress.com/touch-the-earth

Get the previous collection: https://www.ivpress.com/god-speaks-through-wombs

Other poets and authors mentioned in the podcast:

Rainer Maria Rilke

Langston Hughes

Ta-Nehisi Coates

Kiese Lamon

Paul Louis Dunbar

Mary Oliver

Margaret Atwood

Barbara Holmes

Howard Thurman

Tony Hoagland

Sharon Old

Joey Graham

Jericho Brown

Mary Oliver

Elizabeth Alexander

Cheryl Sanders

On this episode of the podcast, we talk with Cory Brock and Gray Sutanto about their new book, Neo-Calvinism: A Theological Introduction (Lexham Press). We know that our listeners come from many different theological traditions other than our own, and although this discussion may at times go into the weeds, the larger conversation is about what it means to work out of a historical tradition, retrieving while also reimagining. Among the topics we discuss:

• What is Neo-Calvinism? What makes it "neo"? Is it broad or specific?

We will also be running a series of reviews on the book, going chapter by chapter, which are available here: https://inallthings.org/

Get the book: https://lexhampress.com/product/224276/neo-calvinism-a-theological-introduction 

Cory and Gray's podcast, Grace in Common: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/grace-in-common/id1609942093 

On this episode of the In All Things podcast, we speak with Dr. Kristen Page about her new book, The Wonders of Creation: Learning Stewardship from Narnia and Middle Earth. In this conversation, ecology and fantasy literature come together to train our imagination, practices, and pace. Among the topics we cover:

• How time spent in imaginary and literary worlds can slow us down and train our attention, helping us to become better stewards of creation.

In All Things link (transcript available): https://inallthings.org/podcast-slowing-down-to-hear-creations-song-with-kristen-page-2/ 

Get the book: https://www.ivpress.com/the-wonders-of-creation

Read Hannah Landman's review: https://inallthings.org/active-imaginations-a-review-of-wonders-of-creation/ 

Read Dr. Carl Fictorie's review: https://inallthings.org/embracing-ecology-and-fantasy-a-review-of-the-wonders-of-creation/ 

Authors mentioned in this podcast:

C.S. Lewis, The Chronicles of Narnia

J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings

Marilynne Robinson, Gilead

Richard Powers, The Overstory

Robin Wall Kimmer, Braiding Sweetgrass & Gathering Moss

Wendell Berry (anything)

Robert McFarland, Landmarks 

Aldo Leopold, Sand County Almanac

Jean Carolyn Craighead George

On this episode of the podcast, I speak with Matthew Ichihashi Potts about his new book, Forgiveness: An Alternative Account. During the conversation, we consider the biblical teaching about forgiveness in the face of lingering grievance and ongoing harm. Among the topics we cover:

• How some demands for forgiveness might actually do more harm to those who have been hurt.

Get the book: https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300259858/forgiveness/