In the Sandbox

On the In the Sandbox podcast, Jeremy Steele (the Skeptic Pastor) returns as the only repeat guest to discuss his book, “Rituals for Heretics: Transcendent Rites for Atheists and People Who Aren’t Sure About God,” which offers rituals and meditation practices for people with religious trauma or uncertain belief by removing the “God part” while keeping the psychological and embodied benefits of ritual. He explains the research basis for rituals, invites experimentation without dogma, and shares examples including candle/fire meditation, planting intentions, a scapegoat-inspired release ritual with a rock and ribbon, Dia de los Muertos ofrendas, smudging as a trauma-processing practice analogous to EMDR principles, walking meditation, and guided imagery. He describes the personal and professional risks of reframing sacred Christian rites, including a God-free communion focused on connection and the “circle of life,” and closes with a lightning round and where to find his work and Substack.

01:40 Why Call It Heretic

02:35 Rituals Without God

05:30 Science Behind the Practices

07:46 Skeptical Pastor Rhythm

12:38 Fire and Planting Rituals

15:05 Borrowed Traditions and Meaning

16:57 Scapegoat Release Ritual

19:16 Dia de los Muertos Ofrenda

21:19 Grief and Human Ritual

23:02 Smudging and Trauma Processing

25:50 Sage and Intention Setting

27:13 Embodied Spiritual Connection

28:12 Walking Meditation Basics

29:45 Guided Imagery Breakthroughs

32:38 Mind Made Real

33:30 The Cost of Heresy

34:16 Reimagining Communion Ritual

39:04 Playful Curiosity for Leaders

40:14 Lightning Round Fun

44:05 Where to Find Jeremy

45:00 Podcast Wrap Up

Hosts Matt Rawle and Rachel Billups interview Bishop Tom Berlin of the Florida Episcopal Area of the United Methodist Church about how his business/public administration background helped him navigate local-church leadership and conference systems, emphasizing organizational health, financial and human sustainability, and the importance of culture in change. Berlin contrasts the nimbleness of local churches with the slower “aircraft carrier” dynamics of annual conferences, describing how leaders must adapt, build trust, and empower clergy and laity rather than rely on personality-driven leadership. He discusses risk-taking grounded in shared values and identity, including managing disaffiliation and launching Wesleyan-focused initiatives like “Wesleyan Rooted” and “Awakened to Grace,” with sermon series, devotions, and an app. Berlin names adaptive challenges such as Christian nationalism, societal division, weariness, and reaching younger generations, while encouraging experimentation (including Fresh Expressions), hopeful discipleship, and careful communication on issues like immigration.

00:00 Meet Bishop Tom Berlin

01:52 Business Degree to Ministry

04:03 Local Church vs Conference

06:41 Adapting as a Bishop

08:54 Risk and Shared Values

11:33 Disaffiliation and Wesleyan Roots

15:06 From Hero to We

16:52 Budget Cuts and Adaptive Work

18:54 Markers of Health and Sustainability

21:44 Discipleship in a Changed Culture

23:57 Division and Burnout

25:40 Hard Conversations Wisely

28:45 Agency and Real Support

30:40 Fresh Expressions Momentum

31:21 No Innovation Police

33:38 Hope as a Discipline

34:46 Lightning Round Fun

39:10 Where to Find Tom

40:30 Prayer and Sendoff

Hosts Matt Rawle and Rachel Billups interview business strategist and System and Soul founder Benj Miller about building organizations that balance effective systems with human-centered culture. Benj traces his entrepreneurial start to resourcefulness and a desire to work independently, then describes a pivotal identity crisis and coaching conversation centered on three questions—who am I, why do I matter, and who is my audience—leading him to ground identity in his Heavenly Father. He connects identity to leadership behaviors, warning that fragile identity produces defensiveness, control, and fear, and explains how identity statements help leaders face failure as events rather than personal labels. Benj emphasizes investing in multiple coaches, engineering boundaries to avoid founders “building their own prison,” and defining success beyond society’s metrics, using a “front burner” metaphor for seasonal priorities. For executing big ideas, he advocates collaboration, hiring for execution, market validation, and securing prepaying customers to fund and prove demand.

00:00 Meet Benj Miller

02:18 How He Helped a Church

03:06 Entrepreneurial Spark

04:59 Crisis and Inflection

06:44 Three Identity Questions

09:18 Identity Drives Change

11:04 Why Leaders Need Coaches

13:18 Fragile Identity Pitfalls

15:33 Stop Leading With Resume

18:33 Walking In Regulated

20:35 Enneagram and Closing Banter

21:22 Failure Without Shame

22:49 Redefining Success Seasons

25:19 Retreats And Recenter

27:19 Sweet Spot Family Wins

29:11 From Ideas To Execution

33:14 Risk Fears And Boundaries

37:08 Enneagram And Lightning Round

41:32 Where To Find Benj

41:53 Prayer And Farewell

On the In the Sandbox podcast, hosts Matt Rawle and Rachel Billups interview Matt Miofsky, founding pastor of The Gathering in St. Louis (launched around 2006) and author of The Methodist Book of Daily Prayer. Miofsky describes starting a church in a declining city and fusing passionate, relevant worship and strong ministries with a more open theology as both opportunity and risk. He recounts personally struggling in the first 18 months—overwork, strain on marriage and family, possible depression—and nearly quitting before a district superintendent helped him pursue healthier habits, mentoring, and therapy. He explains choosing a collaborative, multi-site model to develop leaders and ensure long-term sustainability, using growth, finances, and volunteer support as criteria. He emphasizes measuring ministry with both quantitative and qualitative indicators, normalizing risk-taking and learning from failure, and closes with a lightning round and prayer.

00:00 Welcome to the Sandbox

01:35 Why Start the Gathering

03:58 Fusing Two Church Worlds

05:49 Early Success Personal Strain

08:50 Quitting and Turning Point

11:43 Leading with Boundaries

14:14 Multisite Collaboration Vision

17:31 Sustainable Sites and Staffing

20:25 Failure as Innovation Fuel

21:12 Doing What Others Wont

21:32 When to Pivot

23:10 Risky Church Moves

26:32 Measuring Ministry Success

29:51 Where to Find Matt

31:44 Lightning Round Fun

36:09 Calculated Risk vs Reckless

37:39 Prayer and Sendoff

The episode features Amy Aspey, founding pastor of Short North Church in Columbus, Ohio, discussing how the church plant emerged from a 100-year-old United Methodist congregation in the arts district near Ohio State that voted by over 80% to close and give its resources to a new, inclusive future. As a United Methodist deacon, Aspey describes saying no twice before accepting a nontraditional lead role centered on bridging church and world through compassion, justice, and service. She outlines Short North’s values—affirming inclusion, neighborhood partnership, story sharing (“everyone has a sacred story”), transparency, and consistent alignment of decisions with values—and explains discerning faithful risk through communal sense of call. She shares a pivot in the Yoga+Worship (“Yo Wo”) ministry from weekly to monthly, describes sustaining the community through belonging and participation, notes a Lilly Grant–funded sabbatical without an interim, and highlights launching an affirming campus ministry, SNC at OSU.

00:00 Meet Amy

02:00 Why Short North Started

03:37 Listening to the Neighborhood

05:29 Closing to Begin Again

08:18 Deacon to Lead Pastor

11:49 Values That Guide

15:57 Risk Versus Reckless

19:32 Pivoting Yo Wo

25:15 Fine Tuning the Pace

25:56 Belonging Sustains Community

27:27 Participation Over Perfection

29:45 Launching the OSU Campus

33:05 Advice for Would Be Planters

35:43 Next Risk Unhoused Neighbors

36:56 Lightning Round Favorites

40:24 Where to Find Amy

40:49 Prayer and Closing

Hosts Matt Rawle and Rachel Billups interview Jeremy Steele, creator of Skeptic Pastor on TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube, about how an experiment to study church use of TikTok unexpectedly grew into a 260–270K follower audience and a smaller intentional community called “Not Church.” Steele, a self-described deep skeptic and pastor, avoids institutional church language because many members have religious trauma, and he focuses on relational pastoral engagement, progressive takes on biblical texts, exposing corruption, and addressing current issues of injustice. He discusses authenticity, research-heavy content production, making retraction videos, being doxxed, and building a creator-economy “pay for what you get” model that avoids donations and includes free options, supported initially by a declining grant. He argues digital space is full, real ministry, offers cohorts and coaching to help others launch, then ends with a lightning round and a closing prayer.

00:00 Meet Skeptic Pastor

01:58 Accidental TikTok Growth

04:32 Not Church Community

06:31 Authenticity And Safety

09:07 Pastor Discernment Filter

13:40 Entrepreneurship Value

17:36 Risks And Funding Model

21:40 Innovation Means Failing

24:00 Unglamorous Content Grind

27:18 Retractions and Credibility

28:34 Deep Skeptic Mindset

30:14 Starting Digital Community

31:05 Online Ministry Is Real

35:31 Distance Ministry Argument

36:08 What Audience Should Gain

38:04 Lightning Round Fun

43:55 Prayer and Sendoff

Cristin Cooper, founder of Maryland-based social enterprise Coop’s Soups and a licensed local pastor, shares how loneliness in 2018–2019 led her to practice hospitality by sharing soup with neighbors and how it evolved into a missional business. She explains designing the company to reflect community-building by selling at a farmers market, sourcing from local farmers, labeling jars with “Share me” and conversation starters, and making and donating soup to a food bank while eating together to embody socioeconomic belonging. Cristin describes inviting people into the kitchen, launching monthly soup-making gatherings, maintaining a “pace of grace” by going slow and deep to build trust, and taking risks like quitting her job, selling publicly, and running gatherings still in draft form. She discusses centering her call amid denominational expectations, grounding in Luke 10, exploring bread and a community garden, possible franchising, recipe choices, and advising leaders that “YouTube is your friend.”

00:00 Welcome to Coop Soups

02:01 Loneliness to Table

03:48 Soup Becomes Enterprise

04:53 Designing Community Values

07:25 Cooking Together Belonging

09:26 Pace of Grace Leadership

11:58 Risks and Leap of Faith

17:30 Staying Centered in Calling

22:57 When Soup Excludes Someone

26:09 Bread Team Expansion

28:07 Garden Team Vision

29:29 Scaling and Franchising Ideas

31:36 Choosing New Soup Recipes

36:44 Risk Taking With YouTube

39:39 Lightning Round Fun

44:16 Where to Find Coop Soups

44:46 Closing Prayer and Sendoff

Hosts Matt Rawle and Rachel Billups interview Derrick Scott III, Associate Director of Learning and Innovation at Wesleyan Impact Partners, about “entrepreneurship” in ministry as faithfulness—cultivating what’s been placed in our hands, experimenting, and adapting to changing needs. Derrick describes leading in permission-giving spaces that allow trial-and-error learning and argues campus ministry must follow student rhythms (e.g., moving weekly gatherings, midnight Bible study) while helping churches decenter established patterns to reach young adults. He shares practices for staying healthy amid constant change, emphasizing self-care so he can focus on those he serves and measure success by whether people feel seen. Derrick advises churches to invest real resources in younger generations, admit current models are often designed for boomers, and give younger people meaningful inheritance and authority. He discusses generational theory (Gen Z amid chaos; Gen Alpha rebuilding) and calls for equipping and passing the mic to younger leaders.

00:00 Welcome and Guest Intro

02:21 Faithful Entrepreneurship

05:20 Pivoting With Permission

07:56 Campus Ministry Rhythms

15:19 Staying Healthy in Change

20:07 Coaching Churches for Gen Z

26:17 Unlocking Lay Leadership

28:45 Empowering the Laity

30:43 Gen Alpha and Church Futures

35:07 Gen Z as Artist Leaders

38:39 Passing the Mic Well

41:06 Mentoring Young Preachers

42:31 Lightning Round Fun

48:35 Where to Find Derrick

50:34 Prayer and Sendoff

Hosts Matt Rawle and Rachel Billups interview leadership consultant Kathi McShane and Rabbi Elan Babchuck about their partnership, formed after an Ashoka gathering and later co-leading classes for the Changemaker initiative. Drawing on their book and Walter Brueggemann, they define “empire” as a coercive, control-oriented pyramid culture that leaders and organizations internalize and revert to under stress. They discuss markers of getting “sucked into empire,” including making leaders the hub, prioritizing metrics over people, and hustle culture’s paradox of productivity, which dehumanizes teams and drives burnout. Sabbath is presented as an antidote that redistributes agency and trust, with Elan sharing how a serious accident and recovery led him to keep Shabbat. They explore risks of “leaving Egypt” (loss of stability), the myth of scarcity, grief as a clarifier of values, and leadership that shares power by prioritizing wellbeing over output.

00:00 Meet the Guests

02:00 How They Connected

06:07 Defining Empire

08:53 Signs of Empire Thinking

11:28 Hustle Culture Trap

14:23 Sabbath as Antidote

17:13 Shabbat Saved My Life

20:52 Risk of Leaving Egypt

23:32 Scarcity Mindset vs Faith

26:35 Grief in Change

29:02 Grief Fuels Creation

29:54 Grieving Well Matters

31:21 From Me to We

32:19 You Are the System

36:18 Leader Productivity Trap

39:01 Crossing the Jordan Signs

40:36 Footsteps in the Sand

43:30 Lightning Round Fun

49:06 Where to Find Them

50:53 Closing Prayer and Farewell

What is the In the Sandbox podcast, Season 3 all about? In today's Season 3 launch episode of the In the Sandbox podcast, Matt Rawle and Rachel Billups sit down and discuss the incredible guests they had the opportunity to chat with on the topic of entrepreneurship and ministry, and how the two are more intertwined than we traditionally might think.

They also share about the new, upcoming Hub4Innovation book entitled Dream, Dare, Disrupt, where they are providing applicable and innovative systems, strategies, and tools that ministry leaders can use to have more impact on their rapidly changing communities.

Chapters:

00:00 - In the Sandbox Season 3 Launch

07:17 - Rabbi Elan Babchuck & Kathi McShane

09:45 - Derrick Scott III

11:51 - Cristin Cooper

14:34 - Jeremy Steele

16:10 - Amy Aspey

18:39 - Matt Miofsky

20:37 - Benj Miller

23:02 - Bishop Tom Berlin

25:47 - Lightening Round

34:02 - Hub4Innovation's Debut Book