In this podcast, our hosts Elizabeth Brandon and Charletta Dawson explore the motivations and origins behind the creation of The HistoryMakers, a non-profit organization with the largest archive of first-person oral histories of renowned and unsung African Americans. Learn how Julieanna Richardson’s discovery of the accomplishments of a black artist helped her find her identity and inspired her to create The HistoryMakers.

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Transcript:

Intro: Welcome to the Reed Smith Podcast, Inclusivity Included: Powerful Personal Stories. In each episode of this podcast, our guests will share their personal stories, passions and challenges, past and present, all with a goal of bringing people together and learning more about others. You might be surprised by what we all have in common, Inclusivity Included. 

Charletta: Hello and welcome to Reed Smith's Inclusivity Included. We are celebrating Black History Month, and my name is Charletta Dawson. In a recent interview, Dr. George C. Fraser shared that for Americans in America, Black excellence is the base, but exceptionalism should be the goal. And with us today is one exceptional individual, and that is Ms. Julieanna Richardson. She is the founder and driving force behind the HistoryMakers. Ms. Julieanna, welcome, and we are so pleased to have you with us today. I'm just very excited to get into this podcast and hear all this great information that you have to share with us today. 

Elizabeth: And my name is Elizabeth Brandon. I am a partner at Reed Smith the Dallas office. I practice litigation. And I'm excited today to be kind of primarily leading this interview with Julieanna. Thank you, Charletta. And Julieanna, let's just dive right in. And first, can you just tell the audience a little bit about what exactly is HistoryMakers? 

Julieanna: So The HistoryMakers has grown to be the nation's largest African-American video oral history archive. We actually turned 25 years old this year, this month. This month, in the year 2000, we started doing our interviews, and we've grown to over 3,800 interviews of African-American leaders in 451 cities and towns across the United States. We've actually traveled internationally. The importance of the collection, though, which is housed at the Library of Congress, is that there's only been one time in the history of the United States that there's been a massive attempt to record the Black experience through the first voice, and that was 1900s, our enslaved experience. There had been no attempt to do that until we came along. And so it was very important for us that we were able to interview people who have enslaved ancestors. And while we always are wanting to do younger people, the majority of the people that we've interviewed historically have been 70 and above. But it's really needed. In many ways, the project is about identity, identity of a people, identity of a country. And the other part is I really believe that you can't have a melting pot unless you have all the parts, all the ingredients to make soup or a cake. You've got to have all those ingredients. And so we see ourselves as a very important ingredient of the American experience. 

Elizabeth: Well, I mean, that is just fabulous and, frankly, inspiring to hear those words. And before we kind of delve in and unpack some of the things you just told us, I kind of want to delve a little bit behind you, Julieanna, and your background. Can you tell us what inspired you to even undertake this whole journey? 

Julieanna: Well, you know, it's interesting that I'm presenting at a law firm because I'm a lawyer by training. I started my career as a graduate of Harvard Law School in the banking and corporate department of Jenner & Block in Chicago. But the project itself really starts when I'm nine years old. And I'm living in a town called Newark, Ohio, which is about 35 miles southeast Columbus, Ohio. And I was the only black kid in my class because we had 1,000 blacks out of 50,000 whites in my town. And the only two things we studied about black people, I should also say, was George Washington Carver. My white teacher was very animated about George Washington Carver and said he could do all these things with peanuts. And then there were the pictures of the enslaved, and they are hunched over. So my nine-year-old brain that wasn't computing? How could one person have done all these things, all these things, when all we have been were slaves? And then that same teacher asked us to talk about our family background. So you know how nine years old, you're excited. So everybody's hands are raising up. I'm part German, I'm part Italian, I'm part French. And I'm literally sort of cowering over the corner because I don't know exactly how to answer. And this is before James Brown, I'm Black and I'm proud. And so I say maybe Negro or colored. And then I threw a Native American because most Black people think they have Native American in them. And then I added in French because I wanted to be sexy like the other kids. I wanted to have an identity. Now, I don't know about Haiti or Cote de Blanc or about those at all. That's way beyond my concept. But I'm sitting there. And I know, and I've been told not to lie, you know, you don't lie, but I'm lying. And my teacher looks at me with a little raised brow and I felt like a fraud. Never told my parents. 

Elizabeth: How did it feel at nine years old, sitting in that classroom and kind of just both receiving all the only information historically that you're learning about people that look like you is that they were slaves? And how did you feel about basically having to lie about what you felt your background was? 

Julieanna: I didn't feel good and I never told my parents about it, but maybe it's better to talk about how I felt when I found out I had history. I'm in my sophomore year at Brandeis University, and I'm American Studies and Theater Arts major because my father wanted me to go to law school, but my dream was theater. And so I'm doing research on a project called the Harlem Renaissance, which is a period in the 1920s in our country, in New York and Harlem, where there's a cultural renaissance. Alice Childress wrote to me, the writer Alice Childress wrote to me and said, renaissance, that means a rebirth. They were poor, they died poor, they were poor. But there's this period called the Harlem Renaissance. And so I went to study it. And there was a famous librarian in New York, Schaumburg's Library, named Jean Blackwell Hudson. I've actually, my letter I wrote to her telling her. 

Elizabeth: Wow. Wow. 

Julieanna: And asking her to identify people in the Harlem Renaissance that I could talk to. So one day I'm in the library and I've got my headphones on and it's like a gray day. It's a fall day and the leaves are brown and orange. And I'm looking out from the library at the trees and I have my headphones on. I'm listening to I'm Just Wild About Harry. And this song that I know, I thought it was about Harry Truman. This song that I know I find in that black library. Was written by a Black songwriting team of Noble Sissle and Eubie Blake in the 1921 production of Shuffle Along on Broadway. And you talking about like wanting to like, almost like I was shot out of a cannon, I was overjoyed because I had found my identity. And I had found Black people had done And not just that, lots and lots of things. 

Elizabeth: So you said something very interesting when you started talking about this. You started this by saying you were going to talk about how you felt when you discovered you had a history. Could you kind of tell us what it means to have that feeling that you had a history? And this is something you discovered, I guess, in college. So you were 18, 19 years old. 

Julieanna: Yeah. I get chills just now thinking about how I felt. I don't think people understand the importance of identity and identity formation. And feeling, you know, people talk about feeling other. But I don't think because, you know, people, when you have a sense of legacy and where you came from, and that's what those kids could talk about that day. You know, they all knew it or they seemed to know it. They knew more than I did. I didn't know anything. And so here I was, and I found my own identity, and I'm with my tape recorder, and I'm doing research, and I'm interviewing Lee Whipper, who was born in 18—he was born in 1870. And he—I go to interview him, and he says that he had moved to New York in 1900. And I go, wow, because I'm like 18, 19 years old. And he just will be old as Methuselah. I don't know what concept, you know. And so my interviewing skills have improved since then. But I'm researched. I am researched and I'm serious because he actually gave me front row tickets to see Josephine Baker, who was a noted artist 

Elizabeth: Oh, my goodness. 

Julieanna: Who moved, and my family had spent time at her castle that she had in France. And so he's telling me he has these tickets, and I have an existential crisis. I'm there to do my interviews, or do I go see Josephine Baker? And I opted to sit and interview with him. And one interview led to the other. I interviewed Butterfly McQueen, who had starred in Gone with the Wind, and that little voice that she had it was a real voice and she was working up in Harlem in impoverished conditions though when she had started gone with the wind that she had made five thousand dollars a week but she had also been typecast as a silly you know, But she wasn't like that, but she still had that voice. And so that was lovely. I interviewed tap dancer Honi Coles. I interviewed John Henrik Clark, historian. And just one interview led to the other. And there was no question at that point. It sort of like lit a fire in me. And I went on to finish. And I ended up going to Harvard Law School. And then I was thinking I could represent artists if I couldn't be an artist. And it was really hard in those days to be hired if you were a Black person at an entertainment firm. 

Elizabeth: So when you graduated from Harvard Law School, you decided to go into private practice. Was that difficult to get hired in that capacity? 

Julieanna: Yes, it was difficult. My, oh, they don't like me to say it, but I was the first Black, but it's the truth. 

Elizabeth: First Black, in the corporate? 

Julieanna: Black in the corporate department. And Jenner is mainly a litigation firm. But at that point in time, I asked them, because they had only had one woman, you know, how was it going to be? And was I going to be given work like the others? And they said they would have to screen clients because some of the clients wouldn't want to deal with me. Because there weren't Blacks incorporated. So I took that as the reality. That didn't actually, wasn't really the reality. In fact, I went out and got my first year, my own little newspaper client who wasn't Black either, a distributor, and so I was representing him. And I really, you know, I have, I'm very happy that my father had me go to law school because I would not have been able to do the project that I'm doing right now. 

Elizabeth: I want to connect to the project you're doing now, but I, and since this is, you know, we're at Reed Smith, it would be remiss in not delving into what, how did you feel when you were being told, look, we're going to have to screen our clients to work with you? And did that impact how you were going to be, I guess, you know, functioning as a lawyer? 

Julieanna: No, that didn't really. I mean, you have to understand that law was my father's dream, not my dream, though I'm very happy that I have the legal training. And that didn't affect me, but it did when he said it, because I responded, I'm okay with that as long as I'm not put in a corner. And I found I was put in the proverbial corner. I was not being given the same work as my white male counterparts. And when I found it, I went ballistic on this because my thing was, I'm here to work, but you have to give me the work and you have to give me the same experience. And so in another instance, if that had been my dream, that may have been problematic. But it had never been my dream. I think sometimes, you know, what would have been my trajectory had I stayed there? Because at that point, there had not been someone come through the ranks to go and make partner at the firm. They sent subsequently, just a few years after me, the first Black partner to come through the ranks was a man named Gerald DePriest who was technically in my same class, but it took him two more years. 

Elizabeth: So how long did you stay in practice before you decided, look, law is not my dream. I've got to go pursue my project. 

Julieanna: Not that long. So two years. And then I, you know, law firms were different back there because they were genteel places, actually, back then. And so I went and gave my resignation, and then I had gotten hired as the assistant cable administrator for the city. And then by 30, I was the cable administrator for the city. When the cable companies were franchising, that seems like old days now with the advent of cable. But I'll tell you this and why I'm so really gung-ho about legal training. For the same reasons that my father had told me. I believe that legal training teaches you how to really think. And I became a very good writer and a very good. I was drafting contracts. And all of that knowledge, that and my experience in an organization called Lawyers of the Creative Arts, where we were incorporating our Chicago's sort of nonprofit community. And advising people on things like trademark and copyright. All of those things were extremely important to me as I started. And I really think it's a way of thinking that that is very, very important in what I would call the ecosystem of life. So I'm very pro-pro legal training and getting actually a law degree. 

Elizabeth: How did that legal training help you as you then focused your efforts on what is now grown to be the HistoryMakers? 

Julieanna: I'm going to answer that question, but I need to tell you just a quick trajectory between law schools. So I went into the city and I did my city work and became cable administrator for the city, which was regulatory. And I found that very interesting from not only starting something up, but the nature of the cable industry and all the things around policy and how you form policy. But then I then started, and this is the, so politics had me out. And I was doing a little consulting, but no one was hiring anyone with a cable background. And I started a home shopping channel, a regional home shopping channel, which it doesn't matter where I'm presenting. I saw the brakes just go off in your head every place I go, especially in academic circles. You start hearing screech, you know, up there like it's like, where did that come from? Out of nowhere. But that's really important because all roads have led to where I'm doing right now. But I raised the million dollars and started one of two regionally based home shopping channels when it was called Shop Chicago. There was another family group in New Orleans that had started. But that went belly up after five years, but I raised money. And so how I'm starting the HistoryMakers is in that period of not knowing. Now, you can't say that I was a person who always had a five-year plan. And I was a little more organic than that. I was with this five-year plan. But I see my life as these very intense moments. I can get very intensely engaged. And so I'm without a job. I'm pretty angry, actually. And I have no idea what I'm going to be doing. And no one's going to hire me as a lawyer. And I went to Memphis. It was the year that Clarence Thomas had gotten appointed to the Supreme Court. And I was at the National Bar Association Conference, and Judge Leon Higginbotham, who I love and adore, was speaking. And in that, and I'd been really confused about what I was going to do next, confused, disoriented. And I tell people that sometimes at your lowest point, what you're intended to do comes. And that's how the HistoryMaker came to me. So I'm sitting there and I'm listening to Judge Constance Baker Motley and Reverend Billy Kyles. And they were talking about Martin Luther King, and I was like, people don't know their names, but they were very significant in the movement. Reverend Billy Kyles was on the balcony when Martin Luther King died that day. He's one sort of pointing. Is he the one pointing the finger? He may be. And so the name came to me, because I've got this creative thing. The name of the HistoryMakers came to me, and I should, in my indecision, one of my friends was general counsel of our local PBS station. She's since become general counsel of a national PBS. And she had been indexing tasks under the legal department to inventory their tapes, their archives. And so I come running. So the name comes to me, the HistoryMaker. So I come running back to Chicago because I've been totally, I was doing one thing in the morning, one thing at night, total indecision. And I come running back to her and I say, Katherine, I know what I want to do. It's called the HistoryMakers, and it's an archive of Black people. And instead of her being like, she goes, that doesn't make any sense. And so some friends of mine, she included, did an intervention on a Saturday. And I have to give them credit because they probably thought I had lost my mind completely. But they asked me, I explained, I'm sitting there with my boards and, you know, easel, And I'm explaining to them, because I've been doing a lot of research on the internet, and I'm explaining what I want to do. And they said at the end that I needed to answer two questions. One, did an archive like the one I was envisioning, did it exist already? And they said that if it didn't exist, then I needed to answer the second question, would anyone be interested? They said they theorized, no, but those were the two questions. And I took it as like a dog with a bone. I went out, those were the two questions I was asking. And so there is probably not an archive in the United States around Black experience that I don't know. I was writing to TV stations. I was writing to sororities. I was writing to African-American organizations. I was writing to anyone who would talk to me. And that's where I'm seeing my legal degree came in very handy. I knew how to already incorporate as a nonprofit. So I knew those things, how to set up the structure. The other very, very, very important thing about our collection is everyone has to sign a release form because we would not own the collection in the way that we owned it. Our collection is very clean, very, very clean. 

Elizabeth: And what does that mean when you say clean? 

Julieanna: It was really important to me that we not be hampered and not be able to use the material. And then as technology changed, because I wanted to take, it was very important that the interviews be videotaped. I have no problem with audio cassette and audio interviews, but I wanted to see what people, I didn't want to have to imagine what people looked like. 

Elizabeth: And let me ask you about that, because one of the very first things you said today was that the HistoryMakers is the largest oral archive of the Black Lives Matter. 

Julieanna: Video, video, oral. Video and oral history. 

Elizabeth: Why was it important to structure this as a video and oral archive as opposed to, let's say, in written form? 

Julieanna: Because you get to hear people tell their own stories, and you get to see them talking about their own lives. And that was very important, that first-person testimony. Now, when we're starting, there's no money. There's no money for oral history interviews. That money that was there in the 70s had all dried up. And we are not accepted in the academy. When I mean the academy higher education, we are not accepted at all. So here I have this envisioning. I also had, from my home shopping days, I knew how to do a business plan, but I didn't know anything about archives, education. I didn't know any media. I didn't know anything about anything I was supposed to be able to mount, nothing. And so I had a University of Chicago business school graduate who went with me on that part of the journey. And so we were at that point, this is during the dot-com era. So there was money flowing all over, but she came back one day and she goes, you've got to be a nonprofit because there is no ROI because we figured it was going to take $36 million. And that's really what I took seriously that it was going to take. I would have to raise $36 million. And so I was very serious about it. We've raised $36 million as I speak to you. The collection is, archives are really expensive. Each interview costs us about $6,000. But I often tell people what value do you put on something whose ultimate value is priceless. It can't be replicated. 

Elizabeth: Who was the first interviewee for your archive? 

Julieanna: The first interviewee is sort of interesting. His name is Barry Mayo and he had been very prominent in the world of urban radio that was our first interviewee and I started to learn you know we were in those early years we're trying to develop our process you know we have I had been out to the Shoah Foundation which is Steven Spielberg's project and they have been really secretive but they finally had me come out and they had done 52,000 interviews in five years. So I decided, oh, we can't do 52,000. Where’s that money coming from? So I set 5,000 as a goal because that was double the number of slave narratives. And I figured that was doable. And we were going to do. All across the Black community, whether it was law or business or music or entertainment or STEM or medicine. And it's clear in my original concept paper that I really don't know anything about STEM because I have Dr. Joycelyn Elders, who's a noted medical person from STEM. And that shows you, because we actually, in 2009, were awarded a $2.3 million grant from the National Science Foundation. And we have the largest recording of blacks in STEM. And that was just a magical period in the history of our project. But so in the early years, we were focused on Negro Baseball League players, Pullman Porters and Tuskegee Airmen. Pullman Porters had almost died. The Tuskegee Airmen, I'll tell you a story about that, and the Negro baseball players. One day, I was going to interview in the early years, and we were trying to do well-known and unsung, and we're going to interview Colonel Thompson, Bill Thompson, and he was a Tuskegee Airman. And I'm questioning myself, why am I interviewing Colonel Thompson? I got to do the Oprah Winfrey's. I got to do bigger names. So when we got there, he had been preparing for us for four days. And he was the chief documentarian for the Tuskegee Airmen. Lots of his things are in the Air and Space Museum of the Smithsonian. And he sits me down and he says, have you heard of the Golden 13? And I said, no, Colonel Thompson, I've never heard of the Golden 13. And he said, well, they were the Navy's version of the Tuskegee Airmen. And there are four left living in this country and one lives upstairs. 

Elizabeth: Wow. 

Julieanna: And he’d like to speak to you all. So that is the moment that I knew the process was, it was all about discovery. 

Elizabeth: Julieanna, I think you may know that I think the last living Tuskegee airman recently passed. So the HistoryMakers was able to capture some of these stories that would otherwise have been lost forever. 

Julieanna: That's right. 

Elizabeth: All right. So we have a few minutes left. And if we jump to now present day, there are over 3,800 or so interviews. How do you select people to continue interviewing and to be considered for the database? 

Julieanna: So people can nominate people on our website, which is www.thehistorymakers.org. We have now 16, a committee for each group, and they've been very helpful in helping us vet and prioritize. We rely on our committees a great deal, but, you know, all history is local in a lot of ways, and we've had people identified to us like, early in the project, we had the, you know, if you see a black tap dancer in any of the old black and white films, she identified herself to was, and her things are in the Smithsonian. So this is a group project. The community has to be helpful to us in that way. We're in the legal area, and I would say that we have the largest reporting of Black lawyers. 

Elizabeth: Wow. Yeah. 

Julieanna: Us, and then there's, well, our collection is much larger than his, David Wilkins out of Harvard Law School had done recordings, but between the two of us, I think he may get 100, but we have over 400 lawyers that have been interviewed. And you start to see, and I'll just leave you with this, and I've maybe asked the question, when is the first Black lawyer in the history of the United States? What year is he? 

Elizabeth: Now you're putting me on the spot. I'd have to say that was 1932. 

Julieanna: So the first Black lawyer in the United States is 1816. His name is Moses Simons. He is mixed race. He goes to the first law school. He goes to the Yale undergrad. And then Litchfield Law School, which was the first law school in the United States, also in Connecticut. He has a practice in New York, and then he goes to a ball dance, and someone calls him out of his name, and he gets in a fight, and he loses his law license. So his legal career lasted from 1816 to 1816. 

Charletta: So did he get into Yale by passing? 

Julieanna: No. 

Charletta: Okay. 

Julieanna: No. Well, we don't know that, actually. You know, I say no, but it was clear. I mean, he did get into this fight, and it was because some people tried to come to his defense, but he lost his law license. But I want to say we don't know a lot about ourselves. And I think really knowing, and why I'm so committed to this work, is knowing will change the trajectory of how the Black experience and its contributions are seen and known because there's a tremendous amount that Black people have contributed to this nation. 

Charletta: Yes. 

Julieanna: And it's not yet, no. And that's the whole essence of our work. 

Elizabeth: Well, thank you, Julieanna. The database is vast. I do want to give you an opportunity to give the website again so that folks can, you know, go on the site and, you know, nominate or identify individuals. I already know several individuals that I'd like to nominate. And by the way, who is conducting, are you the one conducting all the interviews? 

Julieanna: No, no, no, that's not possible. 

Elizabeth: Okay, I figured it couldn’t have been. 

Julieanna: You know, I've probably now done about 600 over a 25-year period. 

Elizabeth: Great. 

Julieanna: But let me just say the site, once again, is www.thehistorymakers.org. Our digital archive, which is not publicly available, was developed in collaboration with Carnegie Mellon, this major research on tech institution that has worked with us for 20-something years. And they have created this wonderful tool. We're now in 205 colleges and universities and public libraries across the United States. We just picked up D.C. Public Library, San Francisco, Dayton. Marin County, and we're in Chicago, New York, LA. And they're just really wonderful innovation coming out of the places that we're having here. 

Charletta: But Ms. Julieanna, let me say, you made a very profound statement in your 60 Minutes interview where you were talking about the untold Black stories that they have to be told, because without them, American history would be incomplete. 

Julieanna: That's right. 

Charletta: And that was very profound. I was like, yes, we are so intertwined into the American history story. You cannot have one without the other. 

Julieanna: No, you cannot have one without the other. Because I really think that archives are really important because they determine value. Because you don't throw what away but has value preserve it and so preservation is, and keeping things are critical to who has value and who doesn't have in society. And so I'm just hoping that you as the Reed Smith community will get involved with us, not only as users of the content. Some people have used it to give speeches and introduce people. Kids are using it for reports. We have a school in North Carolina that's using it to teach vocabulary and context. So there are all kinds of uses for it. But I also hope that you as a community will also get involved with us. We love working out of law firms. We would love to be able to do interviews out of your facilities, if that were ever possible. But we just are pleased that you've stepped forward. And I want to say another thing about A. Scott Bolden, who is one of your partners. And he, you know, was very, we met through an organization called The Community and the Family that was Black leaders. And they adopted us. And that's how I first got to know A. Scott Bolden. But we're just pleased that this is happening. I'm pleased that you're drawing attention to our work during Black History Month. And I hope that this is just the beginning. 

Elizabeth: Thank you, Julieanna. And now before we close, I want to ask you one question, okay? I want you to take yourself back in time to that nine-year-old girl in class, and I'm your teacher asking you to tell us about your history, your background. What would you say today if you had to answer that question? 

Julieanna: Oh, that's a wonderful question. I would say that, I'm the descendants of slaves, and they were really amazing because they made that their way through the Middle Passage. And that if I could have the strength that they exhibited, or if anyone could have the strength that they exhibit, and that I'm really proud to be their progeny. 

Elizabeth: Thank you, Julieanna. We appreciate your candor and telling us all about the HistoryMakers. 

Outro: Inclusivity Included is a Reed Smith production. Our producers are Ali McCardell and Shannon Ryan. You can find our podcasts on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, reedsmith.com, and our social media accounts. 

Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal advice and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship, nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to particular lawyers in any given situation. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome. Any views, opinions, or comments made by any external guest speaker are not to be attributed to Reed Smith LLP or its individual lawyers. 

All rights reserved.

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In this episode of Inclusivity Included, host Bareeq Barqawi speaks with Foley Hoag partner Arsalan Suleman and Reed Smith’s Rizzy Qureshi and Wardah Bari about their experiences as Muslim attorneys. This conversation explores the unique journeys, challenges, and triumphs of Muslim professionals in the legal field. Our panelists share personal stories about navigating identity in the workplace, addressing misconceptions about Islam, and fostering a culture of inclusion. Whether you're a legal professional or an ally, this episode offers valuable insights on how we can all contribute to a more equitable and supportive environment.

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Transcript:

Intro: Welcome to the Reed Smith Podcast, Inclusivity Included, Powerful Personal Stories. In each episode of this podcast, our guests will share their personal stories, passions, and challenges, past and present, all with a goal of bringing people together and learning more about others. You might be surprised by what we all have in common, Inclusivity Included. 

Bareeq: Hello and welcome to this special episode of Inclusivity Included, Reed Smith's DEI podcast. I'm your host, Barik Barkawi, and today we're excited to feature an incredible panel brought to you by the Muslim Inclusion Committee, one of our business inclusion groups here at Reed Smith. This episode highlights the experiences, challenges, and successes of Muslims in the legal profession. Joining us today are three distinguished guests, Arsalan Suleman, a partner at Foley Hoag, an international litigation and arbitration practice, and a former senior diplomat and policymaker at the U.S. Department of State. Rizzy Qureshi, a partner at Reed Smith in Global Regulatory Enforcement and a member of our Executive Committee. Wardah Bari, an Associate Attorney in Global Commercial Disputes at Reed Smith. Hi, everybody. Thank you for joining today.

Arsalan: Thanks for having us.

Bareeq: All right, so let's dive right in. To start, I'd love to hear a little bit about each of your journeys to becoming lawyers. What inspired you to pursue a career in the legal field? I will start with you, Arsalan.

Arsalan: Great, thank you. Yeah, I guess for me, I sort of started thinking about going into a legal path seriously all the way back in high school when I started getting into high school policy debate. I sort of had the expected path of a South Asian son of two doctors. And so growing up, I assumed that I was going to be a doctor. But when I got kind of pretty far into heavily into policy debate in high school, I kind of realized that I was more interested in issues related to law and policy, especially foreign policy. And so the legal sort of option became much more serious for me around that time. And so going into college, I kind of had that as sort of a big general motivation and kind of experiences in college kind of reinforced that. So yeah, that was kind of my sort of tilt towards the law.

Bareeq: Love that. So you've got to find your calling pretty early in life. That's fantastic. What about you, Rizzy?

Rizzy: You know, my upbringing is not very different than Arsalan's or Wardah’s. I'm actually growing up in a Pakistani household. I'm a failure because I didn't go to medical school. But, you know, for me growing up, my dad was a veterinarian. His dream was to attend medical school. So I was very much pushed towards medicine and sciences. But unfortunately, that didn't jive with my skill set and my passion. And it became evident pretty early on when, as a young person, as a child of first-generation Americans who needed me to just be involved in things that ordinary 12-year-olds wouldn't need to be involved in, which is participate in the closing of our very first home and sort of reading documents and providing analysis, which I had no business doing. But it just is the way I grew up in advocating in my community in North Philadelphia, as well as in my Muslim community. And, you know, it became evident early on that advocacy was where I was best positioned with my skill set. And then ultimately, you know, dropping AP Bio is probably a pretty monumental moment of my life because my dad needed to have a sit down with everybody at the whole school district. But fast forward 40 plus years, my parents are very proud of me. And I've succeeded in an area where I think I can provide the most value to my community, which I think is critical to me as a person and how my parents ultimately raised me. I love that.

Bareeq: I love that you highlighted advocacy. I found that doing these episodes, a lot of immigrant households or first-generation families, advocacy seems to be a really big theme in growing up in American society and kind of advocating for your family and extended community. So that's fantastic. Wardah, what about you?

Wardah: Yeah, I think very similar family upbringing. I also come from a Pakistani Muslim family, first generation, and we grew up in a really small town. It was a very small, white, homogenous town. We were the only Muslim kids in our school. And so watching my parents navigate as immigrants living in a new society. Trying to integrate, trying to learn how to navigate these systems, it wasn't always easy. But I think a really big moment for me was after 9-11, which I think, Like a lot of Muslims can relate to this. There was a lot of Islamophobia in my town that everyone in my family faced since we were, you know, the only Muslim kids. People would say things about me, my family. They would come up to us at the grocery store and like harass my mom. Teachers would say really Islamophobic things. And so, you know, as a student, as a, you know, like a young student, that really makes an impression on you and my classmates. So watching my family go through these things, I would always try to speak up about these injustices. But my parents as immigrants were very much like, you know, we put our heads down. We just work hard. You know, we don't make commotion. We're just second class citizens. We need to try to fit in. But over time, watching my family go through all of this and as well as other communities, you know, immigrant communities, religious groups, minorities face different injustices that made me really want to go to law school because, well, one, we have enough doctors. And although that was also a big pressure for me too. But I thought that having a law degree would really help me not only understand the law and legal processes, you know, which were not really designed for people like us, but it also helps equips you with the tools to navigate these systems and really understand how our society works and advocate for people that always can't advocate for themselves.

Bareeq: You know, you bring up a really great point, which is when you mentioned 9-11 and how pivotal that was to your entry into the legal profession. And I find that with majority Muslims, I too am Muslim, and there's life before 9-11 and there's life after 9-11 when it comes to living in America. So at least for us in terms of what we've experienced and the heightened Islamophobia, I would love to hear about what other pivotal moments or were there any other pivotal moments in your careers that shaped the path that you're on today? And actually, I'll send it over to you, Rizzy.

Rizzy: Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, for me, I kind of look at it two ways. You're absolutely right. 9-11 was a monumental moment, and it impacted everybody, in particular, the Muslim American community. So that stands out in my mind. But, you know, breaking into big law as a first year associate in Manhattan and just being different and and being in the “minority,” not only with how I identify, but also how I may behave or the things I'm doing during Ramadan, for example. You know, always not always, but was oftentimes a natural tension with what I quote was supposed to be. doing at the law firm that evening. So I actually look back a lot to those early days in my career where frankly, and I'm being completely honest, where I think I compromised what I knew in my core to be my priorities for the benefit of doing what I thought was necessary to succeed in the law firm environment. And that was 18, 20 years ago when I started practicing law. And I'm happy to report that so much has changed and I've been re-invited to and returned to my core, but those are some pivotal moments because I think back sometimes at that time of my career, I have some regret that I wasn't more, I'll call it outwardly Muslim and outwardly different so that my presence could be, I mean, I'm not an inspiring person, but an inspiration or something for people from my community, but I learned from it. And I learned for why sometimes survival requires one to at least not. Human nature requires you to behave sometimes in ways that maybe you don't think you're going to behave. And I'm not suggesting that, you know, if my mom listens to this podcast, she will, mom, I wasn't eating pork all the time or, you know, doing crazy things. But I think from her perspective, by the way, but I think it really does put into focus how much, how far we've come as a legal industry, as a community, as a country. But, you know, current events would tell you that, are we going a step backward? And, you know, that remains to be seen, but that's what gives me both concern and also reinforces me the importance of being out there, being present in leadership in this global law firm to ensure people know that I'm here and I am different and that I'm here to support them.

Bareeq: You know, I will beg to differ on one thing, Rizzy, which is that you're not an inspiration because I don't think that's true. You know, I think you talk about compromise and sacrifice, you know, 18 years ago and when you were starting your career and things. But now, for example, like you being a member of the executive committee as a Muslim, I think paves the path for other Muslims to say like, hey, that could be me one day. And I do think representation matters in that regard. So I do find that, you know, I know you're trying to like be humble about it, but I do believe that that's going to be, you know, a huge factor in younger Muslim attorneys thinking that they can one day achieve something like that. So I do think that's really inspiring. Arsalan, what about you? What pivotal moments in your career have shaped the path you're on?

Arsalan: Yeah, I just want to agree with you, Bareeq. I find Rizzy’s service both in government and now his work in the private sector to be inspiring, and I'm sure it is inspiring for a lot of younger lawyers, Muslim or not. I mean, for me, I think a couple of pivotal moments. So yeah, I mean, I was in, I was a college junior when 9-11 happened. So I think that definitely changed the landscape domestically, internationally for Americans in general, but especially I think Muslim Americans. So that definitely sharpened my interest in pursuing a legal career. Both in terms of working on issues related to civil rights and human rights, but also on government policy issues. The other pivotal moments, I think, are actually sort of political moments, elections that kind of shaped the stages of sort of my career path. So the first was President Obama's election in 2008, because a couple years after, well, in 2010, I joined the State Department. And that wouldn't have happened absent him being elected, probably. And that sort of started a phase of my career where I was working in government in the State Department, working on issues of foreign policy and human rights, not directly kind of practicing law, but using some of my legal background and skills to advance foreign policy priorities related to deepening and expanding U.S. Relations with Muslim-majority countries and communities, and also working on issues related to human rights in the UN system. And then the next sort of pivotal moment, I think, was the first Trump election, the 2016 presidential election. Because when I was in the Obama administration, I was a political appointee. And when administrations transition, of course, political appointees usually leave. And so, That's when I left the State Department and had to figure out what I was going to do with my life, whether I was going to go back to being a lawyer, which was what I was doing before the State Department, or if I was going to end up doing something else. And very happily, I ended up finding a home at Foley Hoag and have integrated into our international litigation and arbitration practice and have gotten the opportunity to represent foreign states in a number of really interesting international disputes. So I'm very pleased at the way that that transition ended up because there were a lot of moments when I wasn't sure what was going to happen and, you know, what I was going to end up doing. But thankfully, I think it worked out in a really good way overall.

Bareeq: Yeah. And sounds like you were able to kind of melt the two worlds together, which sounds really great. So actually, we're going to transition to some challenges and how to navigate them as Muslims in the legal profession. What challenges have you faced and how have you navigated through them? Maybe like a specific story or example that comes to mind in your day-to-day practice that you'd want to share. And actually, I'm going to go to Rizzy.

Rizzy: Wow, that's a tough one because there's so many. You know, I think for me, the biggest challenge always has been, you know, I'm not a Harvard graduate. I went to Howard and I have a real chip on my shoulder about that. I'm very proud of it. But as Wardah and Arsalan will appreciate, when my immigrant uncles would misunderstand me and think I went to Harvard and not Howard, there was a time in my life where I wouldn't correct them. But now I very much actively correct them. And, you know, sort of being someone who's not supposed to be in the room is something that initially I feared. But now I frankly thrive on. And it's, I think, paid dividends in my career and how I represent my clients. Because even to this day, as somebody who spent as much time as I did at the Department of Justice, when I'm on the other side of the table with DOJ and SEC lawyers, I still look a lot different than a lot of them do and have a very different life experience. But I think in terms of just a specific example is when serving as a prosecutor, there were instances where I came across investigations or matters on my desk that, frankly did not jive with my. Morals, my ethics, or were not the type of dispositions that I believe were going to attain the justice that we needed on behalf of the victim in that situation or the community, and also to hold the individual accountable. It took some time to work through that and get the courage to express a position that was in the minority on, hey, maybe this person doesn't need to be indicted in the manner that we are proposing supervisor which will result in more harm than good and this is a young person who has potential and we can think of a more. Creative disposition where we hold them accountable for their bad conduct but at the same time put them on a track where they have the potential of doing something good with their life and And as for those of us, and I think all of us who have experience here in the D.C. Metro area, that's a tough balance. And it's often a tough balance to articulate to U.S. Attorneys who are political appointees whose obligation is to keep the streets safe. So I interestingly very early on in my career found myself in the U.S. Attorney's office more often than not and you know it's no different than being in the principal's office but I'm so thankful that I took that approach because as a result of me doing that on a couple cases which at the time were insignificant cases and I'm using air quotes and you can't see me because they might have been gun possession cases and not thank God a shooting where somebody was seriously injured or hurt. But it put into focus and it put into practice, at least in my team at the U.S. Attorney's Office, where people felt more comfortable to look at cases and look at facts and look at criminal dispositions with a different lens. And I'm happy to report, you know, I came in under President Obama and Eric Holder, and I left under the first Trump administration. So things had changed. But the first Trump U.S. attorney in D.C. was great. Her name is Jessie Liu, the first Asian American U.S. attorney in D.C. I'm not sure what's going to happen now with where we are today and what's going on with the leadership in an office. But I think that was one of the most difficult things I've dealt with because I had to, similarly in my prior conversation. Had to battle my own survival and promotion within an office and a department that I cared about while at the same time staying true to what I felt was the right thing to do.

Bareeq: That's a great story. And I can see where, you know, there would be challenges along the path to, like, upward career progression, but also staying true to your beliefs. Wardah, I'm going to pose a similar question to you. Have you ever felt like your values or beliefs were in tension within the workplace environment? And if so, how did you navigate those situations?

Wardah: Yeah, so I think there, so I'm, I'm a very, uh, a junior lawyer. I, I, I'm like a third year now. And so I'm still kind of figuring out how my values and my beliefs play into my profession and how it's shaping my career. So, you know, it's very heartening to hear about Rizzi and Arsalan’s experiences. And, you know, I can resonate with a lot of, especially the challenges they face early on in their careers. For me, I'm still trying to figure out how to have these conversations with my colleagues, with my partners, seniors that I work with. And representation is a really big challenge. Being in a courtroom in a meeting or in an office and looking around and realizing I'm the only Muslim or only Pakistani and sometimes even the only woman, it's sometimes difficult for me to speak up and represent. You know, see that there's not representation and then try to advocate for myself and for people with different experiences and backgrounds. But for me, these challenges come across in like small ways as well, like figuring out when to take time off or figuring out how to navigate, you know, fasting during Ramadan or celebrating Eid and things like that. So like this past year, I was visiting my family during Thanksgiving. And when we're all together, we usually go to the mosque for Friday prayers, which is like an hour on Friday afternoons. And I got an email from a partner I work with, and he was asking if I could help with something that was kind of urgent. And so I started panicking and was like, oh, no, I have to tell my parents I can't go. I'm going to have to stay back home. And then I just like got to thinking about it. And I was like, I only see my parents a couple of times a year. And, you know, it's really special for them and important for them that we do this together and attend Friday prayers. And so I emailed my partner and was like, hey, I'm so sorry. I'm going to step out for like an hour or so. But as soon as I come back, I can help with this assignment. And to my surprise, he responded saying Jum'a Mubarak, which is, you know, like the greeting you give on Fridays. And he wrote it in Arabic. and I thought it was so sweet I kind of started tearing up when I saw that and it was kind of the first time where I was like no there is a place for me here there's a place for me at this firm there's a place for me in this profession and there are ways to you know keep up with our religious traditions and values and still you know succeed at our work and and there's a way to figure it all out and you just kind of have to speak up and ask for ask for and like advocate for yourself sometimes.

Bareeq: I love that story. And that's so heartwarming to hear, especially when you find, you know, inclusive leaders like that in this environment, too. And piggybacking off of that, Arsalan, so my next question is, what are some common misconceptions that we found, that you found about Islam that you've encountered in the workplace or even among clients? And how do you approach dispelling them while also maintaining professionalism?

Arsalan: Yeah, that's a good question, Bareeq. I mean, what's interesting is that, you know, in my practice now at Foley, a number of my clients are actually Muslim majority states. So I represent Qatar in various matters, the Gambia in various matters. These are countries that are Muslim-majority states, and so my identity as a Muslim and my understanding of Islam is actually sort of a positive in being able to relate to maybe issues that our client is facing or that the officials that I'm engaging with are sort of thinking about, right, like whether it's a Friday or whether there's Ramadan coming up or other holidays. But in terms of misconceptions, I think that question generally kind of brings me back to that time in the State Department when, you know, especially kind of in that post 9-11, post Iraq war time in the Obama administration, there was a big effort to get the U.S. Out of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. And as part of that effort, in particular in Iraq, there was sort of the rise of ISIS. And I think around that time, and kind of consistently going back before then and afterwards, there are these just common tropes about Islam and Muslims in terms of Islam and violence or Islam and terrorism or Islam and the treatment of women or Islam and human rights. And so those would constantly come up in terms of how to, you know, properly understand a situation or how to properly, you know, understand the motivation of certain groups that claim to be invoking Islam as some sort of justification for their actions, but in reality, you know, have nothing to do with the actual teachings of Islam when you get down to it. And so I found that to be a big challenge because there were, especially with the rise of ISIS, there was kind of this understanding or this sort of idea out there that, you know, ISIS is like really, you know, leaning into certain interpretations of Islam. And it just created a lot of, I think, really problematic assumptions and understandings amongst policymakers and other folks that, again, just kind of leaned into these really, you know, problematic tropes about Islam and Muslims. And so, I mean, when you serve in government, there's often sort of an, especially in the sort of diplomatic space, there's often sort of an internal and an external kind of dynamic. Like internally, you're working on how you can influence policy, how you can best inform the policymakers and, you know, ensure that where we end up on policy is kind of in the best place or where it should be or as well informed as it can be. And then once the policy is kind of set or made, then you have the external side where you're sort of interacting with interlocutors and trying to explain or present you as policy. And. In terms of the internal side of that dynamic, you know, me and other colleagues who are sort of working together in our offices or in this space would often try to, you know, bring to the table our expertise and our backgrounds to help, you know, better inform these conversations and help better sort of present sort of the situation as it is. And as it's being perceived by, you know, various kind of partners in the regions that are being affected. And so that was sort of one way of trying to approach those misconceptions is just trying to bring more evidence and sort of nuanced understanding to the table and sort of ensure that other considerations are being made and that people aren't sort of just running off with the latest interpretation that they read in an op-ed in some magazine and sort of ignoring sort of, you know, a longer history of research and understanding and inputs that should go into the process. Yeah, I mean, I think that's sort of one example that I would think of when in terms of that question.

Bareeq: Yeah, that's a great example. And I love that in your experience, it's almost like your background as a Muslim became kind of like a superpower, like you were the resident expert. And because, you know, your business, like revolved around that, you were able to provide almost like a business case for, you know, being diverse in this profession and how you had that expertise to share. So I think that's fantastic. Wardah, you talked a little bit about being the only, right? The only Muslim in the room, the only Pakistani in the room, or the only woman in the room. And I wanted to just ask, do you think that awareness of Muslim culture and traditions, like we mentioned Ramadan, Eid, has improved in the legal profession? And how do you think law firms can create more inclusive environments for Muslim attorneys and staff?

Wardah: Yeah, I mean, for as long as I've been working here, I do think it is getting better. And I do see a lot of diversity. I see a lot of people from different backgrounds who, you know, I don't have to explain it to every single person that I meet, but there are still a lot of questions and people that don't know, especially, you know, like there are a lot of partners I work with that they don't, they haven't really had to experience somebody who's fasted before or had to take off time during Eid or, you know, just had a Muslim on their team before. And so they, While I do think things are improving, and I'm sure like Rizzy and Arsalan can say more about how it's changed over their time, I do think it's improved a lot, but I do think there's a lot more work to be done. And I think part of it is, you know, people shouldn't, you know, feed into these stereotypes or make assumptions about people. You know, we are on a spectrum. There's a lot of diversity within Islam as well. And we, you know, practice. We have a lot of similarities. We have a lot of differences. And I think it's good to do research. I think it's good to ask questions. I think it's good to have these conversations so that we can help accommodate and we can help, you know, take care of each other and see how we can help and how we can increase the representation moving forward as well.

Bareeq: I love that. Thank you. Rizzy, I'm going to pose the next question to you as we get close to wrapping up. What role do you find affinity groups and DEI initiatives like the Muslim Inclusion Committee, what role do you think they play in fostering that inclusion and support for Muslim professionals?

Rizzy: I think they play a critical role. And, you know, as having the privilege of serving as the sort of founding partner co-chair at Reed Smith of our Muslim Inclusion Committee, we didn't know when we started the Muslim Inclusion Committee, you know, a year and a half ago, or whatever it was, Bareeq, you would know the exact date, but that the conflict in Gaza was going to, you know, go in the direction that it did, and that the human impact of it would be so direct to many of us. Our colleagues and having a safe space to discuss how do I both support my community and those impacted, but also remain appropriately Empathetic and sympathetic to the plight of our Jewish brothers and sisters who had been impacted by it as well. You know, in a work environment, there are so many things at play, because let me step back for a moment. I mean, Muslim Inclusion Committee or not, whatever the business inclusion group is, whatever affinity group, we as a law firm, and most law firms across the planet, their number one obligation is to their clients. That's what our ethical duty is. And to the partnership, the obligation is to ensure that we remain profitable so our people can stay employed, right? And when you sort of put that aside and that priority aside is like, what kind of culture and environment you want to bring and do you want to have at your firm? And I can tell you, I'm really proud of being at this firm because I grew up at this firm and now being in leadership and on the executive committee, I can see from top to bottom, there is a real commitment. To having an inclusive environment. But sometimes that's hard to do. You can have all the commitments you want and you can have all the good intentions you want. But if our black colleagues are not feeling safe following George Floyd, which was an issue across the globe, across corporate America, if our Muslim colleagues are not feeling safe because of the anti-Muslim backlash that has occurred post 9-11 or has occurred post the events in Gaza, or our Jewish colleagues don't feel safe because of the increased anti-Semitism, those safe spaces to express how you're feeling and how to navigate that both outside and in the workplace are so critical. And it sounds kind of. Really minor, but I think safe spaces are key. And, you know, it also provides you an opportunity to find a connection to your colleague outside of the day-to-day substantive grind of practicing law, which I think is important. And the final point that I'll make is, like most groups, Muslims are not monoliths. There are all kinds of Muslims who have all kinds of belief systems, who have very different approaches to their faith. But what I love about the Muslim inclusion committees, and I would say something very controversial, which I'm not afraid to say. Sometimes I find inclusion committees, particularly Muslim inclusion committees, to be more inclusive than we even see in our own communities at mosques and other places, because there's a recognition that we need to be open and inclusive and foster an environment that all can thrive in. So I think it's great, and I think it's a great opportunity, finally, to educate our colleagues. It's very normal for everybody around Yom Kippur. Now it's become part of our language. And it wasn't like this 20 years ago, where we talk to our colleagues and we tell them, have a good fast and have a good Sabbath. I want that to be part of the dialogue and language of all of our colleagues across the legal profession when Ramadan approaches, that there's an acknowledgement and knowledge amongst those who are Muslim and non-Muslim that here's what the Muslims who are practicing are about to get to do. And let me wish, you know, Arsalan or Wardah a good fast or a blessed Ramadan. And if we can get there, if that's language that's normal, just like saying Merry Christmas to somebody, to me, that's success.

Bareeq: I love that. I mean, we have partners saying Jum'a Mubarak, so, you know, we're halfway there. So I'm going to end on one question, and I'm going to, you know, take it around the panel before we end. And I'll start with you, Arsalan. So what advice would you give to Muslim associates or law students that aspire to succeed in this field? And then on the flip side, what advice would you give non-Muslim colleagues and leaders in law firms to be better allies to Muslim co-workers?

Arsalan: I think for the associates or law students, I think that the kind of message is really just that, you know, you have a place in this industry and there is no kind of forced choice between adhering to your ethics and values and religious practice and being a successful lawyer. I think there are, especially at this point now, you know, many, many examples of people who are successful in the field are in leadership positions like Rizzy, are in senior kind of leadership roles in government and private sector. So, you know, role models are there, examples are there. And I think it's really, I think it's a bright future for those who want to enter this space and want to do so while remaining true to their own beliefs and values. I think it's really important for folks, you know, just to think about what kind of environment they're creating and what kind of atmosphere they want. You know, Rizzy was just talking about creating an inclusive atmosphere where people can celebrate each other's holidays and just make people feel welcome and appreciated for who they are and what they believe and not feel like they have to hide that. I mean, I think that's great. I think those kind of environments are environments where people will feel happy, will feel like they are valued and will make them, you know, happier to come into work and to make sure that they're doing their best for their clients, but also for their colleagues. And so that's the advice that I would give. You know, we have a similar approach at Foley Hoag. We have kind of a robust DE&I effort. We have an affinity group for Arab, Muslim and Middle Eastern attorneys or those who have such a background. So we try to similarly ensure that all of our attorneys from various backgrounds have the means to express what they choose to express, but also are able to stay true to their practices, beliefs, and values while being productive members of the firm. So I think those kind of values are values that firms and other sort of companies will be much more successful in kind of cultivating, retaining, and attracting talent than those that have kind of a more. I don't know what the right description would be, but a less inclusive or sort of a more sort of Darwinian approach to advancement and inclusion.

Bareeq: Fantastic. Thank you. Wardah, what about you?

Wardah: Yeah, so I think, I mean, I echo a lot of what Arsalan just said, but I don't think you should be afraid to be who you are. You can be true to your values and your roots. It's been really nice to see new associates come in who are Muslims and, you know, they come to me for advice. And even though I'm still figuring all of this out, too, I want to encourage them to, you know, not be afraid to be Muslim and not be afraid to show that you're Muslim and, you know, speak up for yourself when the time arises and don't be afraid. You know, there will always be resources. And I think to our colleagues, like I said, I think it's important that people don't make assumptions about us. But at the same time, advice for us and like younger Muslim attorneys as well, don't make assumptions about other people as well. Sometimes your greatest allies will be in people that are different from you. Oftentimes there'll be people that are different than you. Sometimes your biggest advocates will be, you know, like people that you never expected. And the only way you can get there is by having these honest, real conversations with them.

Bareeq: I love that. And I echo that. I do find that sometimes, you know, non-Muslim colleagues or someone that's not like you can be your strongest advocate and ally. Rizzy, finally, what about you?

Rizzy: I would just say for Muslim associates and law students, we live in a different world today where you can effectively get, I mean, you can look up Arsalan's incredible journey in his career by Googling him and looking at his LinkedIn profile. And I would encourage people to identify, assuming you want to make connections, identify Muslim colleagues or those who identify as Muslim outwardly or not, whose careers you're interested in, and take the step to make outreach to them. Because all of us, and I would think Arsalan and Wardah would agree, and you as well, Bareeq, as a leader, a Muslim leader in D&I, in big law, to make outreach. And don't wait for your law firm apparatus to appoint a mentor to you. Go out and adopt your own mentors. And that's paid dividends in my career. I've cold-called or cold-emailed people that I had some connection to, whether it's our background or whether it's the law school we went to. And I can give countless examples of why I became a federal law clerk or became an AUSA. And I attribute a lot of that to just making cold calls. And for our non-Muslim colleagues and leaders, I think it's just to not forget that we're here. And not to, you know, just like when I go into one of my really difficult investigation matters or trial matters, I think about my entire team. And I have extroverts on my team and I have introverts on my team. And I think about how the introvert, I'm going to use him or her effectively in this otherwise pretty adversarial encounter with DOJ or with a witness that we need to interview and how am I going to put him or her in the best position to succeed? Because it's easy to just say the extrovert will do what I need him or her to do, and I'll get the job done. But it's thinking like that outside of the box with inclusivity that, you know, it's getting close to Ramadan. We're about to have this big retreat for some reason at the firm. And I'm giving a hypothetical example. Is this the right time to do it? How many of our Muslim colleagues is this going to impact? You know, those are the kinds of things that I want our non-Muslim colleagues to think about, just like we think about when we're approaching other important monumental days for other non-Muslim colleagues, whether it's in the calendar year because it's a holiday or because something else is going on in that community. And, you know, once you don't lose sight of the fact that we're here, and that's incumbent upon us as Muslim Americans to remind folks that we're here, you know, I believe that we're going to be heading in the right direction that I think we already are in many respects.

Bareeq: I love that. And I feel like as we've talked about, being the only person in the room can be an isolating experience, but it can also have power. Being in the room is also powerful because, like Rizzy mentioned, you know, you have to be considered. You have to be acknowledged. And so, you know, I said two sides of the same coin sometimes. So as we wrap up, I want to say thank you so much, Arsalan Rizzy and Wardah, for sharing your stories, insights, and advice. Your contributions have been both inspiring and thought-provoking. And I want to thank our listeners for tuning into this episode of Inclusivity Included. Be sure to join us next time as we continue exploring the many facets of diversity, equity, and inclusion in the legal profession. Thank you.

Outro: Inclusivity Included is a Reed Smith production. Our producers are Ali McCardell and Shannon Ryan. You can find our podcasts on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, reedsmith.com, and our social media accounts. 

Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal advice and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship, nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to particular lawyers in any given situation. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome. Any views, opinions, or comments made by any external guest speaker are not to be attributed to Reed Smith LLP or its individual lawyers.  

All rights reserved. 

Transcript is auto-generated.

Shannon Llenza, Assistant General Counsel at Microsoft and Commander, U.S. Navy Reserve (retired), reflects with Reed Smith data coordinator Mark Butterfield, a member of RSVets, Reed Smith’s veterans business inclusion group, on how her military service has impacted her legal, governmental, and corporate career.

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Intro: Welcome to the Reed Smith Podcast, Inclusivity Included, Powerful Personal Stories. In each episode of this podcast, our guests will share their personal stories, passions, and challenges, past and present, all with a goal of bringing people together and learning more about others. You might be surprised by what we all have in common, Inclusivity Included. 

Mark: Hello, everyone. Welcome back to Inclusivity Included. I'm Mark Butterfield. I'm a proud member of Reed Smith Vets here at Reed Smith, and your host for today's episode. With my own military service background and my ongoing doctoral studies, I'm deeply committed to exploring what service means in and beyond the military. Today, we have a truly unique guest, Shannon Llenza, a seasoned attorney and former member of Reed Smith's Business Leadership Council. She brings remarkable experience from both the military and corporate worlds. Shannon began her career as a full-time Navy JAG officer, moving into the reserves where she held key legal roles with the National Security Agency, the Department of Defense, and tackling issues with national impact in those roles. Now at Microsoft, she continues to apply the expertise that she builds, navigating critical intelligence and security matters. So Shannon, thank you so much for joining us to share your journey of service, leadership, and resilience.

Shannon: Thank you so much for having me. I'm happy to be here.

Mark: It's a real pleasure for me. I would like to start by asking, first of all, what motivated you to begin your journey with the Navy?

Shannon: Yeah, you know, it's funny. I didn't join the Navy until I actually commissioned my second year of law school. and the motivation to join the Navy is actually a funny story. It was my father who told me that I should go into the JAG Corps. And the reason he told me that is because there was this show called JAG that he loved and he thought it was just so cool. So he, you know, suggested it to me and I had no idea what the JAG Corps was. It never even occurred to me to join the military. At that time, I was 29 years old, so I was older. So I started exploring the opportunities my second year, and I interviewed with some JAGs. I was just really impressed by the program and the experience that I would be able to gain going into the JAG Corps. And so once I was offered a position, I sealed the deal and I went in. I commissioned and then I commissioned. Yeah, so it was great.

Mark: And did you have a family history of military service?

Shannon: You know, it's funny. No, no, I didn't have a family history of military service. In fact, I was the first person in my family to even graduate from college. So going to law school was a huge deal. And then joining the military was even a bigger deal. So, yeah, I'm the first.

Mark: Yeah, we have similar overlap there. I'm the same. It's been my grandparents that served in the sailor into the Second World War.

Shannon: Oh, my gosh. Wow.

Mark: And then, yeah, for me, again, one of the first to go to university as well in the family, which was, yeah, so very similar in those respects.

Shannon: Yeah, yeah, that's great.

Mark: You've held significant roles across the military and the civilian sectors that I've briefly alluded to, particularly in regards to things like national security. And has this background sort of shaped your approach to your current position and challenges at Microsoft?

Shannon: Yeah. So it's interesting. I got out of the JAG Corps after four years of active duty when I had my son, because my husband was also active duty. So it was kind of challenging for us. And that's when I went into the reserves. So when I got out of the Navy, I started working for the U.S. Government in various capacities that led to really a career in national security. I started at the Department of Defense, working on Guantanamo Habeas Matters. And then, like you said, I moved over to the National Security Agency and then ultimately ended up at the Department of the Justice writing counterintelligence and counterterrorism FISA's. The interesting thing in the JAG Corps and the reserves, I did serve in our national security litigation section for a period of time. So I did do some national security work as well in the JAG Corps. And the interesting link between the two really is how, when I had my job at the Department of Defense, I worked with the intelligence community, and that's when I really became interested in transitioning over into the intelligence community and becoming an attorney in that area. And it was people in the reserves that I knew that were working in the intelligence community that sort of helped me parlay my job from the Department of Defense into the National Security Agency and then into the Department of Justice. So even though the reserves, I wasn't directly involved in these agencies when I was in the reserves, the reserves had a huge part to play in me really advancing my career and helping me get to where I wanted to be in the intelligence community and government. And then the way that worked with Microsoft was really interesting. I actually applied for a job. My original job at Microsoft was, I was the attorney advising on when Microsoft would receive legal process from the federal government, state, local government, national security FISAs. And so all of that experience I had in the government really, really transitioned over to Microsoft so that I, you know, it was sort of a unicorn job at Microsoft. You had to have national security experience and FISA experience. And I was like, oh, my God, that's the job for me. Right. And so then that's how I was able to take all of that experience that I had in the U.S. Government and transfer it over to my role at Microsoft, my original role.

Mark: Yeah, it's a really unique and interesting CV for me to read through. Yeah. It's just so varied. I suppose you must have spent a lot of time sort of juggling these multiple roles and your family life and everything else. How do you balance that in terms of your service commitments, your family commitments, your various career roles?

Shannon: Yeah. You know, it was, it was challenging. It was hard because when I was full into the reserves and working full time, you know, my kids were little and my husband was active duty. So it was, it was definitely challenging. You know, it just, I just made the commitment to, to do that, that balance. And, you know, I, I honestly like looking back, like, I don't know how I did it. You know, I just did it. Right. It's like, you're sort of in it and I was committed to staying in the reserves. I just figured it out, I guess. The most important thing to me always was my family and taking care of them. What's interesting is when I was about 15 years into it back in 2000 or 17 years into it, I guess, back in 2019, I actually was tagged for an involuntary mobilization to Djibouti. And so at the time, my daughter was 9 and my son was 14. My husband had just gotten off active duty and they sent me away for about 15 months. I had 12 months boots on ground. You know, that was interesting and difficult. And, you know, again, it's just one of these things that you just get through it, right? Because you've made that commitment. And as much as I didn't want to go, and I didn't want to leave my daughter and my son, but you just got to do what you have said you're going to do.

Mark: Absolutely. And the 15 months, I'm always astonished by the U.S. duration. Our deployments in the British military are usually half that. So that length of separation must be really challenging. If you've got a husband who's in the service, some bit of understanding there as well.

Shannon: Yeah, he was definitely understanding. He, you know, as I worked and I was in the reserves and had kids, he did five deployments, much shorter. His were between as long as seven months, but then they would be about three or four months. So, so he, you know, I knew, you know, I had experienced a deployment, he was active duty, he knew what he was in for, but, but it was a really long time to leave, to leave my husband and my kids, you know, and then it actually overlapped with COVID as well. And so that, that made for an even more challenging experience. So yeah, it was, it was a little bit difficult.

Mark: I can imagine. So I suppose being in the military, you're, you're learning a lot of unique lessons. What unique lessons did you learn in the military about resilience, dealing with high stakes decisions and managing change, these sorts of things that could be potentially valuable to people in a corporate setting?

Shannon: Yeah. I think you learn how to manage change pretty easily. I think that things are always changing and moving and fluid, especially, for instance, I'll just go back to the deployment, right? You know, I mean, it was just, you're in a combat zone, even though it's Djibouti, things are moving quickly. My job was to advise the commanding officer of the base. So it was a lot of very, you know, there were decisions that had to be made, they had to be made quickly. And so you just, in that. Experience, really, it allowed me to become more confident in myself and understand like, okay, I am a good lawyer. I do understand this. I can't advise a commanding officer, right? And so it really just helped me gain confidence as an attorney and my abilities, and then also just helped me learn how to just roll through change and deal with issues as they came up. The resilience part definitely was there as well. Just staying strong while I was away from my family and staying on course with the military and making sure I was performing in the way I should be performing, even though I was thousands of miles away from my family. So it's, there's a lot of lessons to be learned in the military, a lot of, a lot of good lessons and, and just how to get things done. Right. I mean, the military is a place where, um, sometimes you'll get tasked with an issue or a problem. You will not have a lot of information. Um, and you just have to figure it out. And I have really learned over the years working in the military, just how to figure things out. And that doesn't mean figuring it out on my own. That means knowing who to go to, to help me figure out what, what the solution is to the problem that's being presented in front of me. But, and then it also removes that sort of fear of doing things that you're not comfortable with. You become comfortable with the uncomfortable things that you may have to do or solve because you, you, you don't have a choice, right? You're required. That's your job and you just need to figure it out. And so you, you become more comfortable with just dealing with issues and matters that may, may not be in your wheelhouse, but you can figure out who to go to and how to solve them.

Mark: You've also been involved quite heavily with pro bono work, it seems, in your time as well. Could you speak to that at all, about how you've managed to find the time to juggle all these aspects? Shanon: Yeah, you know, pro bono work is really important to me. And whether it's an asylum case, I've done several of those, or helping veterans get benefits that they are, you know, entitled to. I mean, it's just really important, I think. I mean, that's really one of the reasons I became an attorney. I became an attorney because I really wanted to be able to help people who could not help themselves or who could not navigate the law. I had a relative, my grandmother, where I watched her when I was a kid, unable to navigate the law for an issue she had related to, it was the DOW chemical implant issue that happened back in the 80s and 90s. She had breast cancer. I watched her try to fight for her rights and her health. It was so difficult, the legal challenges that she faced. I swore that I didn't ever want to be in that position, which is really one of the motivating reasons why I went to law school, but then also to help people like that who are in positions where they just needed help. For whatever it was that they were entitled to. And if I could help them in some way, then I absolutely, I'm there to do it. So, and I get so much pleasure out of it, really, especially when you get a good result. I've had, with asylum, I've had some not great results. Then I've had, you know, I helped an Afghan family come over here after we exited Bagram. And so I helped them with seeking asylum. And we got that. And that was really, you know, really rewarding. Or I helped a veteran, an Army combat veteran, get additional entitlements that he was entitled to. And that was great. So things like that are really important to me.

Mark: Absolutely. As a veteran yourself now, I understand. Are you recently retired, I understand, or retiring?

Shannon: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I retired on April 1st. I did my 20 years. And on April 1st, I retired from the reserves. That is correct. So I am done.

Mark: Well, congratulations. You're welcome with open arms into the veteran community, I'm sure.

Shannon: Yeah, yeah, of course.

Mark: Do you think you'll play an active role in the same sort of way that you have been doing?

Shannon: Probably pro bono wise, yeah. And Microsoft is very big into supporting pro bono work. We have a huge veterans community here at Microsoft, which I'm involved in. And, you know, so I'm definitely going to be staying involved in that and involved in pro bono work related to veterans going forward. Absolutely.

Mark: That's great to hear. As someone who's dedicated much of your life to service, what advice would you offer young people today about pursuing a career in either public service or the military?

Shannon: You know, I cannot express enough how, what a great benefit it is to either serve in the military or just serve in the government. And I even try to tell, it's funny because my son just started college and he's not interested in the military at all, which, you know, you can't make somebody go into the military if they don't want to. But I would tell anybody who is looking for a career or looking for, you know, even just serving for four or five years, that it's absolutely worth it, right? And the thing is that young people, when you're 19 and 20, you don't see when you're 55 years old, like I do now, right? Like I'm 54 and I'm like, all right, I only got five more years and I get that retirement, it. Right. And so, so it was 20 years and it, it was hard, but the benefit in the end is so great. You know, I, I, um, I'm going to get a retirement. I, I have the GI bill, so I'm going to be able to use that to put my daughter through college. My husband has a GI bill, so he was able to put my son through college. So, so, you know, we get healthcare and so, and then the experience, right? I mean, I came right out of law school and I started, I was a prosecutor and I'm prosecuting these, you know, fraud cases, rape cases, drug cases. I mean, you name it, it was insane, right? And so, and then the, and then the people you meet along the way, people that I have known my whole career that I will be friends with for the rest of my life. So there are just so many great benefits of being in the military. And the great thing now is you don't even have to serve 20 years to get a retirement. They have changed it so that you can serve just whatever period of time you serve, you will receive a benefit for that period of time. There's just not enough I can say about it. The people, the experience, the benefits that in the end, there's nothing like it. And And I'm so grateful that I did it.

Mark: I think that's really great to hear. I served for a much shorter period of time, just the four years. I did basic training, almost immediately deployed to Afghanistan straight afterwards for six months in total. But again, I knew what I was going into. The war was happening at the time. And then came back. Also, like you, went to Africa, but for training in Kenya for a short period. and then, yeah, deployed on a second tour of Afghanistan, which was completely different from the first. And then, yeah, at that point, I feel like my service as ended I think it was time for me to to move on and I was I was very fortunate I suppose that I started my family after I’d left the military um I think that was pretty wise decision on my part I would hate to have had to enjoy that separation that you you've already spoken about yeah. Incredible for for anybody to do that i think i think it's a very noble sacrifice.

Shannon: Oh thank you.

Mark: Is there a lesson from time in the military that sort of shapes the way that you approach life or how you approach work almost on a daily basis at all?

Shannon: You know, there is, and it sort of goes back to something I said earlier, and it's really about, I have a bias for action, right? I think I got that from the military. And so I think my work ethic, working hard, getting things done, being able to figure things out, all of that really came from my experience in the military and really shapes the way I perform and work at Microsoft, right? I'm not, I'm not scared to take on issues or projects that I might not be a hundred percent familiar with. You know, if you need to figure something out, you know, I'm the person who can probably figure it out really without a lot of information. I mean, I mean, and, and just when I mean work ethic, I mean really integrity, right? You know, doing, doing the right thing when nobody is looking. And that's really important. I think the military taught me, you know, all of those great lessons. And I use them, you know, every day when I'm working at Microsoft, for sure.

Mark: So this is a bit of a personal question for my own part, is that in some of my historical research that I've been doing, and although this isn't a U.S. issue, it's kind of a bit more of a global topic, I suppose. I think everyone will have strong opinions on this, is that in the concept of national service or conscription, it's something that's been raised relatively recently in Britain again, actually, with the prospect of national service being something that could be reintroduced.

Shannon: Requiring everyone to serve?

Mark: Yeah um and i was wondering if if you would think that was uh as somebody who has served in this position already whether you'd think it'd be something that would be would be valuable and worthwhile or something that you'd need to take with a certain degree of caution?

Shannon: You know I think that's really interesting because I think there is I think that it would be incredible if we could have national service I mean if we could have everybody have to serve two years I think I think it'd be incredibly valuable. You know, I think it, because when you're in the service, it's, it's something bigger than yourself. Right. And it's an experience like no other. And you are part of, you know, in our countries fighting for democracy and, and freedom. And that's what you're doing when you're serving. You're, you're the one who is, who is allowing and keeping the constitution moving. And, you know, and, and so I think, yeah, I think, I think national service. Would be a great idea. I mean, it would never happen in America. I mean, you have a draft, right? You might have a draft, but, but I just couldn't see national service happening, but I, I think it would be great if young people were required to serve a couple of years, either in the military or even in just public service. So they understand, you know, so they, So they understand what giving back is, what being part of something that's larger than themselves is. I think it would be a great thing.

Mark: Well, that's great to hear. Thank you.

Shannon: When you're saying they're talking about it in Britain, are they actually thinking of, is it something that's actually getting some legs? Are they moving on it?

Mark: I don't believe so. I think, actually, it's been more of a political football that's been tossed in there. But yeah, with our recent overturn of government, I'm not sure that it's going to be something that is reintroduced. But yeah, I would defer on how these legal things happened to you. But yeah, it's reared its head again. And it's one of those questions that I'm uncertain about. I think for some people, it's one of those careers that can be really rewarding and really valuable. It's not for everybody in all circumstances. Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, for sure. It takes a certain personality. And I think forcing, well, not forcing, but legislating that people potentially could or should join as a matter of statutory requirements might be a bit of a problem. But yeah.

Shannon: Yeah, no, I totally get what you're saying.

Mark: Do you see the role of service changing in the future? And do you anticipate any challenges with service?

Shannon: If our secretary of defense is confirmed by the congress senate it sounds like he would like to make some changes so that that might be interesting you know stand by and see what happens i think he is against women in combat i think that that's one thing i don't think they are pro diversity and inclusion gays in the military transgender in the military so i think with the new administration coming in, depending on who gets confirmed to be Secretary of Defense. It'll be interesting to see what happens to the military. I think if the guy who's been nominated gets in, I think there'll be some pretty big changes to serving in the military.

Mark: As a woman who's served in the military, is that something that you've, you know, were you in the minority or is it much more inclusive? I mean, from my experience with the U.S. Military, it always seemed really diverse.

Shannon: It's funny how it's changed from even when I went in in 2000, let's see, I commissioned and I started, I was on active duty starting in 2002. It's funny how much has changed even since then, how much more aware we've become of diversity and inclusion and the benefits of it or accepting people for who they are. Women definitely are the minority. I mean, when I was in these meetings in Djibouti as a commanding officer's attorney, there were meetings where I was the only woman in the room. And that happens a lot, right? And so I think that we've made great strides so that women and minorities can excel in the military. And so it'll be sort of painful to see us go backwards if we no longer allow women in combat, because that will then probably prevent them from then rising up into the ranks, because the way you do that is through your combat experience and who you have commanded. And so if you can't command over combat commands, then you're going to be at a disadvantage to be able to promote up. So that'll make it more difficult. And I was thinking about the women who are currently... You know, I only know the Navy, right? And so you have women fighter pilots who, I mean, what's going to happen to them, right? You know, you have all these women who have trained, we've invested millions of dollars into these women flying airplanes and helicopters. And now, like, all of a sudden, they're no longer have the ability to go into combat. It seems a little short-sighted, but, you know, I guess we'll see what the new administration does.

Mark: Yeah, I think you touched on some really, really excellent points there. I think we'll return for the final summarizing question. I was just wondering if you think there's, when you think back on your time in the military, if there's a single story, a single moment that you could share with us that captures what service means to you?

Shannon: Probably when I was in Djibouti and COVID hit, you talk about a time where there was no playbook and no rules and nobody knew what to do. And it was March of 2020. I think it was March or April. The country of Djibouti had shut down, right? There was nobody going in and out. And we had all of these people on base and we were contained, right? And so... We were worried about COVID and COVID breaking out on base because it could be catastrophic, right? You have all these people contained in one base that's not very big. And you start getting the, you know, if it starts spreading, it could spread like wildfire. So we, I mean, it was just amazing the way that the commanding officer led the base and how everybody worked together. You know, everybody from everybody on the base, everybody in the health service center, the CBs. I mean, they went and they converted a building into an infirmary and beds so that if we started getting people sick, we could segregate them into like an infirmary area because Djibouti didn't have a hospital. It had a small medical facility. And the purpose of that medical facility was if people were injured in combat in Africa or wherever, they could come up to Djibouti, get triage, and then eventually get sent on to Germany, right? That's what would happen. So, I mean, all of these people worked together. They created this infirmary. We created rules for dining. It was just this incredible effort where everybody really just came together to work together for the safety and security of that base and to make sure people stayed safe. We ended up actually having one guy, he was a contractor, get COVID. And it was back in the day when COVID would hit. And it was, I mean, the guy within two days was on, he was intubated. And we only had five of those for like the base. And we had like five or eight. I mean, it was like, we did not have a lot of equipment. And so the medical facility. These doctors, these incredible doctors kept this guy alive with duct tape and nothing, right? I mean, literally, he was in this room. He was on oxygen. And we could not get him off the base because nobody would take him. We couldn't get an airplane to come take him. We couldn't find a country to take him. And I remember sitting in this call and it was just a bunch of high-level people trying to figure out what to do. And I'll never forget the medical doctor was like, if we don't get this guy off the base tomorrow, he is going to die. And it was like the Department of State came in and just all of these different agencies. Anyway, the Department of State intervened. We ended up getting the guy to Germany and he lived. And it was just this... I just found the whole, it was just incredible how everybody just worked together just to do everything they could during this pandemic to include save this guy's life, right? And it was just incredible watching how just everybody came together to make everything happen that needed to happen for the safety and security of all the people on that base.

Mark: That's really wonderful. And I think that's a perfect place for us to end. So thank you very much. I really appreciate your time.

Shannon: Thank you so much for having me on. I appreciate it.

Outro: Inclusivity Included is a Reed Smith production. Our producers are Ali McCardell and Shannon Ryan. You can find our podcasts on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, reedsmith.com, and our social media accounts. 

Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal advice and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship, nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to particular lawyers in any given situation. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome. Any views, opinions, or comments made by any external guest speaker are not to be attributed to Reed Smith LLP or its individual lawyers.  

All rights reserved. 

Transcript is auto-generated.

This year, we commemorated National Disabilities Employment Awareness Month by exploring how employers can work toward providing access to good jobs for persons with disabilities in the legal profession; the tangible benefits of employing persons with disabilities; the feasibility of providing accommodations; and the use of assistive technology. Our speakers provided their thoughts on best practices, shared personal journeys and insights, and reflected on how far employers have come and where we need to focus to increase future employment opportunities for persons with disabilities in the legal profession and beyond. Our guests included Kevin Hara: Counsel, Reed Smith; Ronza Othman: President, National Association of Blind Government Employees – a division of the National Federation of the Blind; Nicholas Carden: Associate General Counsel, Coinbase, and former Board Member of Disability:IN; and Laurie Allen: Microsoft, Senior Accessibility Technology Evangelist.

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Intro: Welcome to the Reed Smith Podcast, Inclusivity Included, Powerful Personal Stories. In each episode of this podcast, our guests will share their personal stories, passions, and challenges, past and present, all with a goal of bringing people together and learning more about others. You might be surprised by what we all have in common, Inclusivity Included. 

Kevin: Hello, everybody. Welcome back to an episode of Inclusivity Included. Thank you, everyone, for joining. My name is Kevin Hara. I'm counsel at Reed Smith in the Life Sciences and Health Industries Group, and I'm proud to commemorate National Disabilities Employment Awareness Month, which is in October of every year. And this year's theme is access to good jobs for all. We have a number of distinguished panelists today joining us, including Ronza Othman, who is president of the National Association of Blind Government Employees, a division of the National Federation of the Blind. Nick Carden, associate general counsel from Coinbase, a former board member of Disability:IN. And Laurie Allen from Microsoft, a senior accessibility technology evangelist. So thank you, Ronza, Nick, and Laurie for joining us. We're thrilled to have you here as part of our podcast. And without further ado, I would like to ask Ronza to talk a little bit about your journey, how you have arrived where you are, and some of the important steps you took that led you to where you are today. 

Ronza: Great. Thank you so much. I'm really delighted to be here. I am a blind attorney and my training was initially as a high school STEM teacher. And that's what I did to get myself through law school. And ultimately I've had a number of different legal jobs, but in state and local government and private sector, ultimately ended up in the federal government where now I manage civil rights programs for a large federal agency. And so my journey has been one of exploration and learning, not only because, you know, being a lawyer, an attorney is always difficult for any person, but also when you add the complications of inaccessible technology and perceptions about people with disabilities and what they can and cannot do, and the obstacles that those negative attitudes create, there's definitely been some really interesting experiences along the way, but I think that I'm optimistic in terms of where we are now. So my paid job, of course, is with the government. And as a volunteer, I serve as the president of the National Association of Blind Government Employees, where we have a number of blind and low vision employees of state, local, federal, and pseudo-government agencies that are members that are experiencing life as public servants, supporting this country at the local and state and national level. It is an honor to represent them and us in a variety of different circumstances, and I've gotten to do a lot of really cool things as a result. 

Kevin: That's great. Thank you so much, Ronza. And Nick, if you'd like to share a little bit about your path that led you to where you are today. 

Nicholas: Thanks, Kevin. And thanks to Reed Smith for having us. This is a great opportunity to speak about an important issue that impacts all of us on this call. I, like Ronza, I am a lawyer with a disability. I started my career right out of law school in-house, which is somewhat unusual, but it sort of led me to where I am today in the sense that early in my career, I was a true corporate generalist, and through various personnel changes and responsibility changes, I was at a consumer products manufacturing company and had the opportunity to pick up some, advertising and marketing and entertainment legal work. And I really enjoyed that type of work. It's a lot of fun. It's fast paced and it's highly creative and interesting work. So I've stayed in that sort of practice area as an in-house lawyer through my career to today where at Coinbase, I lead a global marketing legal team. 

Kevin: Great. Thank you, Nick. And Laurie, we'd love to hear a little bit about the path you took to where you are today. 

Laurie: Thanks, Kevin. And thank you again for inviting us to join you to talk about this great topic. So I am not an attorney. I work at Microsoft, as you mentioned. And I've been in tech for about 30 years. I've only been at Microsoft for a little over two. But my journey actually into accessibility started about nine and a half years ago when I had a spinal cord injury. and became quadriplegic. The only thing that didn't dramatically change about my life in that moment was my ability to do my job. And that's because of accessible technology that was available to me. And frankly, my job was quite literally a lifeline for me. So I'm so grateful that people came before me to create this technology. And about three years ago, I had this epiphany. How did this technology get created? And who built it? And why am I not part of the solution. So that's when I started pivoting my career into accessibility. So I feel quite fortunate to be in a role where I can combine my background in technology with my lived experience as a person with disability to help empower others like me, find meaningful employment, and succeed and thrive. 

Kevin: Thank you so much. All of you have had such unique experiences and out to the successful careers that you are now engaged in today, but it hasn't always been easy for persons with disabilities in the legal profession and other professions to succeed. So I'd like to stay with you, Laurie, and to ask you, what do you believe are some of the barriers or challenges for persons with disabilities to find access to good jobs? 

Laurie: And I think Ronza had mentioned it earlier, it's access to technology. It's discoverability, I find, that can be a barrier. People just don't know what technologies are available to support them in their work environments. And beyond that, it's finding companies who've built inclusive work environments for employees with disabilities, so that when they go through the interview process, they feel included, they feel supported, and as they're onboarded and as they can continue through their career. And then understanding that there are platforms that are available, like Mentra, for example, is a Microsoft partner. It's an amazing neurodiversity hiring platform. But I think just knowing what's available is sometimes quite difficult. And, you know, when people incur a disability like I did, they're starting from scratch, and they don't know what to ask for because it's a new environment for them. 

Kevin: Thank you. That's a really good point. Having the access to the proper tools is key for anybody with a disability to succeed in any career path. Ronza, how about your perspective? How would you characterize some of the challenges people are facing and ways to overcome them? 

Ronza: I think that the biggest challenge that the people with disabilities are really facing in terms of employment and just moving about society and contributing meaningfully in employment settings, but also in every setting, is the negative attitudes that people at large have about disability. Negative stereotypes. The unemployment rate for people with disabilities in the United States is over 50%. The unemployment rate for people who are blind and low vision in the United States is half again that almost at 75%. It's currently at 73%. That's mind boggling. These are people who want to work for the most part, but can't because nobody will hire them or because they don't have the proper training to be able to perform the jobs where there is a need. But all that really comes down to society's low expectations for people with disabilities and the barriers, artificial, usually, that society creates and puts in our way. One of the things that I really like to do as a hiring manager is I love meeting with and interviewing people with disabilities because they're so creative in their problem-solving. Their solutioning is out of the box thinking. And just to get to work in the morning, to get to the job, they have to have solved a whole bunch of problems in an environment, in a situation, in a society, not necessarily built for them. Whether it's the broken elevator, or whether it's the bus that didn't roll up to the bus stop where it was supposed to, or whether it's the technology that didn't work because somebody pushed a security update, so it broke its ability to communicate with assistive technology, or whether it's somebody, a well-meaning, you know, abled person who decided that they know where this person is trying to go and they're going to force them to go there as opposed to where the person is actually trying to go. All of those things, people with disabilities problem solve before they, you know, really start their day or as they're starting their day. And so I think we don't give enough credit to the workforce of folks with disabilities in terms of what they can do, what they have done, frankly, and then society just has negative expectations. The biggest aspect of disability isn't the disability itself. It's people without disabilities or people who don't understand disabilities who get in our way. 

Nicholas: I’d love to add to that because I agree with a lot of that. And I think thinking about access to jobs, the question that comes to mind to me is, do employers want to hire persons with disabilities. And I think there's no clear answer to that. And obviously, companies themselves are just made up of other human beings. And so there's, to Ronza’s point, the stigma attached to hiring persons with disabilities is ever present. But I'll share specifically in the legal industry, I think this industry does a particularly poor job of being intentional about hiring a truly diverse workforce. And this is, I'm calling out the legal industry as somebody who's in it, but I don't think it's unique to the legal industry in the sense that I still don't think when law firms are hiring for diverse candidates that they make a particular effort to recruit persons with disabilities. I think it can be as simple as asking for a voluntary disclosure on an application. And I still don't think as an industry we're doing those types of things. So there seem to be opportunities if the answer to the question of do you want to hire persons with disabilities is yes. 

Ronza: I’ll just add to that, if I may. When you look at the United States census data on people with disabilities, somewhere between 20% and 25% of the population of this country has a disability. When you look at the census in the legal profession, when you look at the numbers in the legal profession, and the American Bar Association has done extensive research trying to sort this out, figure it out, as some other entities, it's less than 1%. Less than 1% of attorneys in the United States are willing to disclose that they have a disability. And those who are, it's usually an obvious or very visible disability, as opposed to some of these hidden disabilities that there's still so much stigma in the legal profession around. In the regular generic work industry generally, not specifically the legal profession, but everywhere, there's this misconception that it's going to be really expensive to hire somebody with a disability because you have to accommodate them or you have to adjust schedules or policies and so forth and so on. The Job Accommodation Network, which is a free resource to employers and employees about what's available in terms of reasonable accommodations for those with disabilities, did a study and they determined that the average cost of a reasonable accommodation is less than $100. So talking about negative attitudes and negative perceptions, one of them for employers, It's that it's going to cost me a lot of money or somehow the work I'm going to receive from this person is going to be less in terms of quality or quantity than other non-disabled employees and so forth and so on. And all of that is just not accurate. It's not supported by research and it's certainly not supported by those of us in the community with lived experience in the workforce. 

Kevin: That's an excellent point, Ronza, and Nick as well. You both have captured the problem that we're facing in providing good jobs to persons with disabilities. I think dispelling the myths and misconceptions is one of the important steps. And I also think technology can play an important role. We alluded to this a little bit more, but Laurie, if you would like to speak a little bit more about how technology can really help people with disabilities succeed. 

Laurie: Thanks, Kevin. So the way we approach it at Microsoft is we build with the community, not for the community. We mentioned it in the last question. We bring people with lived experience into our company. We want that diverse lived experience in our product making. I have a spinal cord injury. I know what it's like to have a mobility disability. I don't know what it's like to be blind and rely on a screen reader. And I can't assume what someone who uses a screen reader needs. So we take an approach of building in early. We build in accessibility into the design phase of our product development life cycle. We bring testers in who have different types of disabilities to test our products before we release them. And what we find, and Ron's mentioned it earlier, is that we get really creative solutions because, as she mentioned, we have to be creative to get out the door every morning. And when we do this, we find that everyone benefits. When we call it Built for One, Extend to Many. When we build with the disability community, everyone benefits. And I'll give you an example. For example, live captions were built for people who are deaf or hard of hearing, but 50% of Americans watch videos with live captions on, and if you narrow that down to Gen Z, it goes up to about 80%. So when we build for people with disabilities, everyone benefits. 

Kevin: I think that's a really astute observation. It's not just about helping one particular segment, but including people with disabilities when you're building the technology is really important. And, you know, I couldn't thank you more for that approach, Laurie, because, you know, I also have a mobility disability, a spinal cord injury. So I understand from my perspective. But as you said, I wouldn't be able to talk about or understand what the needs of a person with a visual or other disability might be. So that's really good. And Ronza or Nick, would you like to weigh in on technology, how it has helped you, or how do you think it can help others? 

Ronza: So technology really is, it leveled the playing field for many populations within the disability community. And so, for example, for the blind community, so much of the information that we receive is visual. So much as paper had historically been paper-based but you know street signs billboards all of the things that happen visually and on the computer though now we can have access to that same information or I can go to an ATM machine and I can plug in my headphones and I can pull out my money I can go to a voting booth in most states and I can privately and independently but vote my ballot. You know there's still places where of course there's work to do but in general the proliferation of technology solutions over the last 20 or 30 years has really made a huge impact on our ability to access information engage in the world and especially with our jobs, so whether it's a screen reader or whether it's a software that's used that is speech to text for those with manual dexterity challenges or whether it's a foot pedal instead of a mouse or whatever the case may be. There's just been such advances in technology that have made it more possible for an individual with a disability to work in so many different fields. Think about all the technology that exists now. Surgeons are doing surgery with robots some of the time. Technology is super cool. It's super advanced and it's only going to get more and more advanced. And so hopefully that means that participation of the disability community at work and in other places is also going to increase. Now, the drawback is, the more innovated the technology, the more risk of potential opportunities to make it inaccessible. And so we have to be really careful when we embrace technology because that's really important, but that it also is accessible. It is compatible with that assistive technology that I mentioned, but also that we're not so focused on creativity and innovation that we're cutting people out that we've recently gave access to these platforms and applications. And we're seeing that. We are seeing technology become less inclusive in lots of different spaces. And then, you know, so build it accessibly, you know, talking to our friends at Microsoft and everywhere else who are thinking about this every day. But also, whether we're building technology or whether we're building buildings or physical spaces or virtual spaces, you know, thinking about what does it mean for us to be inclusive? Who are we building for? And not related to technology, but when we started putting in curb cuts when the ADA was passed, that was primarily done for people who were using wheelchairs and other kinds of mobility devices. And now the population that is the most vocal, the biggest fans, are parents and caregivers of small children that are pushing strollers. And so, you know, again, that sort of universal effort, the Ray-Ban Metaglasses is another example. It wasn't built for people with disabilities, but people with disabilities are using it because it had inclusive universal design built into it. We're using it to read menus and help with navigation indoor and outdoor and wayfinding and all sorts of amazing things happening with technology and beyond. So the key is it's fabulous, but we also have to make sure that it stays fabulous by being inclusive and accessible. 

Laurie: You make such a good point there, Ronza, and I think with this wave of generative AI and everyone racing to get products to market, it's more important than ever to be rigorous and disciplined in continuing to build accessibility in from the beginning and test it thoroughly all the way through before it's released. 

Ronza: 100%. 

Kevin: Ronza and Laurie, those are excellent points that you made. And I really think technology will go a long way to helping people with disabilities of all types become part of the workforce, become part of the legal profession. And I think we have all lived through recently the pandemic that, you know, was affected everyone, not just persons with disabilities. But I think one of the things that came out of that was the importance of remote work and how that can really change the landscape. And Nick, I believe Coinbase is, you said, almost all remote. So can you comment on how that has impacted you and how you think that affects people with disabilities in terms of having access to jobs? 

Nicholas: Yeah, Coinbase is a remote first company. So everyone in the company has the option to be remote first. We do have some office locations in some major cities if some people feel like they want to go into an office, but there's no requirement to do that. And in my view, I don't know that remote work benefits just persons with disabilities. I think we can all agree that it benefits a lot more groups than just persons with disabilities. To me, the bottom line of the benefit of remote work is it levels the playing field for everyone. So if we're all remote, we don't. There's no small group or other group or specific individual or groups of individuals that have to worry about what's happening in an office. Are some people getting ahead by having lunches or just getting that face time that they otherwise aren't able to do to be into the office? Whether that's because they live somewhere else where the office isn't, or they're a person with a disability and it's not easy to get into the office, or for any other reason of why it doesn't make sense. I think specifically for parents with children who are working. Remote work is a great benefit. So I love what remote work does for everyone. And it's been a real benefit. I think Coinbase deserves a lot of credit. For being one of the first companies in I think it was may of 2020 to decide that is how we're going to operate our company we think we can do it effectively and so far now you know four plus years later they're doing really well and um i don't have any knowledge that that Coinbase is changing their practices but it works very well for Coinbase and I'm sort of discouraged to see some of these companies deciding to go to a hybrid or fully return to office status. But obviously, that's their decision. And the people that are making that are thinking that it's in their best interest. I just don't know how much input they're getting from a voice of someone with a person with a disability. 

Laurie: One other point is it expands the talent pool that employers can recruit from. They're not limited to just their area or just the people who can come into the office, but it really broadens that talent pool and once again, enables them to bring a more diverse workforce into their organization. 

Ronza: So I'll say that, you know, in the government workforce, we have seen this switch, right? So prior to the pandemic, there were some people that were working remotely, but not very many because the perception was, no, no, no, we can't do this work remote in a remote way. We need to serve the people, the public, etc. And then the pandemic happened and bam, we have to work remotely in order to serve the people. And then everything was moving along. And I think that was really the renaissance for the disability community and government. And then government started shifting back to more in-person presence and more and more in-person presence. And the thought was, well, if you need to work from home, you can request a reasonable accommodation. And while that's true, it can be very isolating. If we're not building work, community. In a way that's hybrid or in a way that is inclusive of those that are working from home for whatever reason, then we are excluding those people. And so giving them the ability to work from home as a reasonable accommodation, if that's the solution, it can't be the only solution because what it does is it creates a different expectation and standard and isolation. And all these people with a disability are over here and everyone else is over here. And so I think employers need to really be thinking mindfully about what a hybrid work environment looks like and how to ensure inclusion for those who, for whatever reason, are working from home all or much of the time. And we can do it. We have done it. We've been very creative in the last five years. But I think we're just not thinking about it. We're letting the economic and other considerations and, you know, the ease. My favorite phrase that people give me was, well, we need people in the building because of line of sight supervision. And I always say, well, I'm a manager and I'm blind. So line of sight supervision doesn't do anything for me. Are you saying I'm not as good of a manager as you? And then, you know, they don't mean it that way, but that's how it comes off. And that's really how they're thinking. They're thinking they have to be in my space for me to effectively manage them, which we have proven doesn't have to be the case. In fact, we can be very effective as if not more productive with people in their own comfortable environment. 

Kevin: Ronza, you expressed that better than I could ever have done. I think that's a really important aspect of remote work. It could not put anyone at a disadvantage or be isolating. With the last couple minutes we have left, I'd just like to hear from everyone about where we have come from and what you'd like to see in the future, some progress we've made, and where you think we still need to improve. So Nick, if you'd like to talk a little bit about that. 

Nicholas: Yeah, I'll say I can recall an instance about 12, 13 years ago, maybe, where I was interested in a summer internship with a law firm. And I noticed they had a diversity recruitment event, something like that. And they were looking for women and ethnically diverse or persons of color to attend. And I recall thinking to myself, well, I am a white male, but if they're looking for diverse candidates, I would assume that they would be interested in a person with a disability. So I emailed the firm's event organizer and I sort of posed the question of, can I attend? And of course the answer was yes, but it really goes to show where we were 12 to 14 years ago. And we may still be there in terms of what diversity is and or how law firms specifically view diversity. It may just be that they focus on these two categories. And that is a fine thing. It's just not an inclusive thing. I sort of commend the efforts. And I think we've gone farther than that over the past 12 to 14 years. But if we want to create an inclusive industry, doing so in an exclusive manner is not going to get us there. And I would encourage firms in their recruitment efforts to think about all of the minority groups or underrepresented groups in this industry and make intentional efforts to be inclusive for all of them. 

Kevin: Thank you, Nick. Ronza, would you like to add? 

Ronza: Sure, I 100% agree. I think that it's not just in the legal profession, it's in a lot of professions that the focus on diversity has been on race and gender and, you know, the SOGI areas. And there hasn't been as much advancement with disability, but this is certainly an opportunity. The American Bar Association currently has a campaign called the Be Counted Campaign for lawyers specifically and those in the legal profession who do have disabilities who can, you know, confidentially essentially be counted as a member of the disability community so that we can get a better number of who in fact is in this profession because we know it's not half a percent. You know, we know it's more than that. And we need to eliminate the stigma in this and every profession for those that are comfortable, psychologically safe, identifying as people with disabilities, even if it's anonymized, to be able to do so. I am optimistic in terms of where we're headed. I think the effort that we've put forward as a disability community and nothing about us without us has really tremendously borne some fruit. And I think though there's work to do, I think we've come a long way. I think that the ADA regulations on Title II that were the Department of Justice released are going to be a game changer. I think that when the Title III regulations are released, whenever that is, it's going to be another huge game changer. I think that Section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act is very, very much in need of a refresh and some updates. And when that happens, and I know there's some effort in Congress already, that's going to help. And I think some of the fundamental civil rights laws and protections in states and in the federal sector are going to continue this progress. But those are just the underpinning. It's the attitudes of people. It's listening to a podcast like this and learning about people you didn't think about before or aspects you didn't think about before, and then becoming a good ally to those communities. If you are in the community and feel comfortable speaking up with your lived experience, that's going to be a game changer too. 25% of this country. That's who we are. And so everybody knows somebody. Everybody has a family member who is a person with a disability who've experienced some of these challenges. Listen to their stories. Ask about their stories. Educate yourself and become a good ally so that the next generation has an easier time. That's what I'm excited about because I see it happening much more often. And I think it will continue to happen in this generation and the ones to come. 

Kevin: Thank you so much. Laurie, how about you? what do you see in the future? 

Laurie: Well, I think these are all such great points. And I'm going to go back to Nick's example. You know, I think historically DE&I has included, you know, a lot of minority groups except the disability community. And more and more, as I'm speaking with, you know, our enterprise customers, they're starting to add accessibility into that equation and really target disability hiring and bringing disabled talent into their pipelines. A lot of organizations are creating neurodiversity centers of excellence and neurodiversity hiring programs to specifically target that part of the population. So like Ronza said, I'm encouraged and I'm seeing this become a much higher priority for our enterprise customers. And again, to echo what she just said, I think the more we talk about it, the more we have podcasts and people listen to podcasts, the more comfortable and confident we get. I think we don't talk about accessibility because we're uncomfortable talking about disability, because people are afraid they're going to say the wrong thing. And at some point, we are all going to say the wrong thing, and that's okay. It's a learning opportunity for all of us. So again, thank you for the opportunity for us to come together today and talk about this really, really important topic. 

Kevin: Well, I just want to say very heartfelt thanks to all of you, Laurie, Ronza, and Nick for all of your insights today, for your time, and for the lessons you've shared with us. I think people will really get a lot out of this. And for our listeners, thank you for joining us for Inclusivity Included, and please stay tuned for future episodes. Thanks, everyone. 

Outro: Inclusivity Included is a Reed Smith production. Our producers are Ali McCardell and Shannon Ryan. You can find our podcasts on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, reedsmith.com, and our social media accounts. 

Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal advice and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship, nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to particular lawyers in any given situation. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome. Any views, opinions, or comments made by any external guest speaker are not to be attributed to Reed Smith LLP or its individual lawyers.  

All rights reserved. 

Transcript is auto-generated.

In this episode, we highlight the achievements of the Leadership Institute for Women of Color Attorneys (LIWOCA). Reed Smith partner Kendra Perkins Norwood is joined by LIWOCA’s founder, Marian Cover Dockery, J.D., and vice president, Philippa Ellis, J.D., to discuss their efforts to support women of color in overcoming barriers within the legal profession. Marian shares insights into the challenges faced by women of color attorneys and the transformative impact LIWOCA has had over its 20-year history. From offering scholarships and hosting national conferences to fostering mentorship and professional growth, LIWOCA remains a beacon of empowerment and continues to drive change in the legal community.

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Transcript:

Intro: Welcome to the Reed Smith podcast, Inclusivity Included: Powerful Personal Stories. In each episode of this podcast, our guests will share their personal stories, passions, and challenges, past and present, all with a goal of bringing people together and learning more about others. You might be surprised by what we all have in common, inclusivity included. 

Kendra: Hello, I am Kendra Perkins Norwood, a government contracts partner at Reed Smith LLP based in Washington, D.C., and I am elated to welcome you to this very special episode of the Inclusivity Included podcast. So this is a special series of Inclusivity Included, and it's dedicated to an organization that is very near and dear to my heart called the Leadership Institute for Women of Color Attorneys, otherwise known as LIWOCA. So Reed Smith was very gracious in agreeing to host and sponsor this LIWOCA series of Inclusivity Included. And as a Reed Smith partner and a member of the LIWOCA Board of Trustees, I could not be more proud to be a part of bringing this podcast to life. So thank you very much to Reed Smith for their generous support. Now, many of you may be wondering exactly what is LIWOCA. So it is an organization whose mission is to help women of color attorneys in law firms and corporate legal departments, develop skills to become leaders in the legal profession. LIWOCA is also dedicated to assisting law firms and corporations with retaining and promoting women of color attorneys. And last but not least, the organization is dedicated to fueling the pipeline of women of color attorneys through law school scholarships. Today, for our inaugural episode, we are so fortunate to have as our guests LIWOCA’s founder, Marian Cover Dockery, as well as a longtime LIWOCA member, Philippa Ellis. So I would like to welcome you both to the podcast. We're so excited to have you here, and I will just turn the mic over to you for you two to get started. 

Philippa: Thank you, Kendra. It is quite an honor to have this time with you, Marian, as CEO of Leadership Institute for Women of Color Attorneys. And I am excited to talk to you about your role with starting Leadership Institute for Women of Color Attorneys. I'll call it LIWOCA. You know, LIWOCA has awarded over $300,000 in scholarships to deserving law students, hosted 20 national networking conferences for women of color attorneys from across the nation. And the organization has provided a platform for not only professional networking, but also professional development and mentorship connections. So as we're approaching a big number, 20th anniversary, coming up on the April 23rd through 24th conference in 2025, Marian, take us back to the moment in time when you initially had the idea to launch LIWOCA. 

Marian: Thank you. And I just want to say before I launch into that, I want to thank Reed Smith on behalf of LIWOCA for underwriting this and Kendra Norwood, partner at Reed Smith, and Rachel Patterson of ORC who facilitated this podcast. Let me go back to the American Bar Association conference in Chicago, which was 20 years ago, the Commission on Women in the Profession were holding a session, and the session focused on a report, a riveting report called Visible Invisibility. That report chronicled the and detailed the sexual harassment, sexual discrimination, racial discrimination, and disrespect that women of color all across the nation were experiencing in law firms. So after that report was read, a colleague of mine, Julia Doolin, and I went back to Atlanta and decided that we could do something about this. So my idea was to have an annual conference, bringing all of these talented women into one space and giving them support through sessions, panel discussions, also just keynote speakers who could impart their knowledge and advice regarding becoming successful in law firms. We had to figure out, first of all, how we were going to put this on because we had to have money. So luckily, I had two contacts who were CEOs. One who I'd worked with on the Pace Academy board, the CEO of Rooms to Go, and another who was the CEO of Darden Restaurants, who I'd met through one of my good friends. He was her brother-in-law. And I just sent both of them emails and told them what trying to do. And both sent big checks. And after that, we were on our way because posting those two companies as sponsors. All the Atlanta firms and other firms and companies followed. To put the program together, I just called friends and associates and really calls her friends and associates to work or serve on panels and to serve as keynote speakers. We had two keynote speakers that year. Chief Justice Leah Sears, who was the first African American to serve on the Georgia Supreme Court, and the youngest woman ever to serve on a state Supreme Court, and Judge Glenda Hatchett, the TV personality who was the former juvenile court judge. And we had a Fulton County. And we just had two great speakers. Glenda auctioned off one of her shoes, which launched an auction that we have an auction even today. But it's not her shoe. It's a quilt. We auction off quilts every year that O.V. Brantley, the former Fulton County attorney and DeKalb County attorney, donates to us every year. And that's how we got started. And we did that for two years, we were the Leadership Academy, and then we reincorporated as the Leadership Institute with a planning committee because it was too much work for a couple of people. And so here we are today. 

Philippa: And 20 years later, Marian, you know, thinking about what you mentioned about Justice Sears being a first, you yourself have, you know, a checklist of firsts. You were the first woman and first diverse attorney in the legal department at FedEx. You were also the first African-American woman to serve in an executive management position at BP Oil. And those are just a couple of roles you held during your journey to serving as CEO of LIWOCA and at the same time you have an active labor and employment discrimination and wage and hour claims practice. You've practiced for 40 years and just looking at your trajectory and your journey in the legal profession, have you been able or do you feel you've been able to impart that type of support and meet your goals for the organization, as you mentioned, with a goal of supporting diverse women lawyers? 

Marian: Absolutely. One of my goals for the annual conference was to bring experienced senior attorneys into a room with attorneys starting out who could impart their knowledge, their expertise, how to navigate racism and sexual harassment in the workplace without derailing your career. I've wanted more experienced attorneys to interface with the younger attorneys to give them informal mentoring. And we've done that. We've done that through just informally, but also we had some what we call speed mentoring sessions throughout the years. But more importantly, I don't think of it as a conference. I thought of it as an experience. It was so uplifting having all these wonderful, accomplished women in one room who were excited to see each other because so many of these women, as I was, are the only ones in their firm, maybe in their law firm, but maybe not in their section if they were in big law. Many women were unhappy with big law, and the study showed, Invisible Invisibility, showed that women of color were leaving the legal profession because they were so disillusioned and so disappointed and unhappy. But one of the goals was to present to them alternatives to working in big law. You could go to a smaller or mid-sized firm and be happier. You could go perhaps in-house or work in the government or work in nonprofits, but don't give up the practice of law because the social implications for that were just huge. And we put so many resources, money and time into going through law school and passing the bar and our hopes and dreams to give up the practice of law just because of bad experience at one firm was just something we didn't want people to consider. 

Philippa: You know, Marian, you also, and just kind of thinking about all of the mentorship relationships that have been sparked from the LIWOCA conferences and all of the connections, you know, the legacy of LIWOCA is one of support. Sisterhood, professional sisterhood, and, you know, also the scholarships that have been provided to law students. Can you talk a little bit about how you decided to provide that support for law students, aspiring lawyers? 

Marian: We decided to provide scholarships for lawless students, but that was only after we knew financially we could do so. We were a startup organization, and it was important for us to conserve our funds. So the idea for scholarships actually was Julia, who left the organization. And when we got to that point, I think it was maybe our third conference or maybe it was our second conference, we were able to offer some money. But running a business, you know, you want to have money in reserve. We were able to do that, but also what you were saying about the mentoring and support, the environment for leadership is one of support. It is one where people feel comfortable enough to walk up to you and say, at least many have just come up to me and ask a question, and they may have a problem. And I don't think all conferences create that atmosphere. I don't think all conferences create that environment where you feel that comfort level. So for me, I just felt so blessed to be able to meet women from all over the United States, women of color from all of the United States, who were successful, who were committed to their careers, and committed to reaching back and providing advice to younger attorneys who were starting their careers. Throughout sessions, I think we have been able to give support as well. It's important for our attorneys to take care of their physical health, their emotional health. I believe at that first conference, we had one young lady who was obviously suffering from depression. We need to learn how to manage our finances because many start with law firms making lots of money and they don't know how to manage it. And then if they get cut and they have to go to a job paying them less, they are faced with financial challenges. So that first conference, we had someone from one of the big financial firms give a presentation on that. And we have done that almost every year thereafter, how to invest in your retirement, how to have a rainy day fund, you know, live a little below your means. And once you get to the point where you have your savings and you can pay all your bills, we want you to start investing your money in addition to retirement for a rainy day. 

Philippa: And those goals you've talked about have, you know, just as a conference attendee at that first conference, I remember learning so much that, you know, so many tools to place in my toolkit. And I know that others that I've heard over the years, how many other attendees say pretty much their cup is full when they attend a conference and they leave ready to tackle the profession, ready to tackle, you know, everything that all of the challenges that are placed before them, you know, in their in this legal profession. And just want to say to you, Marian, I agree with you that your goals have been met and just as someone who has attended every conference. And I'd like to hear from you on what you've had such wonderful conferences and I agree that they are truly an experience. So looking back, can you share some of the most memorable moments for you as the founder and CEO of LIWOCA, just reflecting over the past 20 years? 

Marian: Oh, there's so many. One was the networking reception that LexisNexis sponsored. We had several of those receptions where we sat down at tables with our hors d'oeuvres and drinks and wrapped. Each person was asked to bring a book, age appropriate for a young woman, 10 to 14, 10 to 13 years old, and write a little note in the cover of the book. LexisNexis provided the gift wrap and the tape and the scissors. But while we were wrapping, and people wrapped more than one or two books, because LexisNexis also provided some extra books for people who may have forgotten to bring some. And while we were sitting there wrapping all those books, and we wrapped over 300 books that were donated to the Coretta Scott King Academy, and to Girls, Inc. But while we were wrapping those books, we also had conversations with attendees. We met attendees, we networked, and it was a true networking event. And it was fun. And we were at the same time doing something, you know, for charity. And then also, I remember some of our great speakers, the Honorable Vanessa Gilmore, who was the federal district judge at that time for the Southern District of Texas. She was so engaging and so funny, we couldn't get people out of the lunchroom. They continued asking questions. We were ringing the bell. I was trying to usher people out. And we were 30 minutes behind our next session. She was just that fantastic. Michele Coleman Mayes. She was the general counsel of Allstate. And she brought her mentee on the stage. And they engaged in a conversation. And she was really her sponsor. But that conversation was in a format that she created. It wasn't our idea, but it was a big hit because the attendees listening to that conversation were able to walk away with some ideas from that conversation. Also, Sandra Leung, who was the executive vice president and general counsel for Bristol Myers Squibb, she was just fantastic. I think everyone enjoyed her speech. She just gave so much good advice and talked about her career trajectory. And, of course, our first conference was actually my favorite conference because it was probably because it was the first and was like, oh, my God, it's a success, able to do this. It happened. Starting anything from scratch is hard work. And when you say, don't say you Marianne, but it was after, you know, that second year, it was a planning committee. And a lot of people, including you, contributed to making those conferences a success. There's no way year after year I could have done that by myself. Although I was conference president and conference chair for 10 years. And, you know, that is a heavy, that's a heavy burden to carry, but it was a labor of love. So those are some of the highlights of the conference and just mingling with people and meeting new people. I feel so fortunate to have met women of color attorneys from all over the country who I never would have met. And also a lot in Georgia. I never would have met you. Because we work in our silos unless we go to your reception or national conference and that's usually going to you're usually going to gravitate to those sessions in your specialty it's hard to meet new people so those are some of the the highlight for me. 

Philippa: You know, LIWOCA has been so successful over these past 20 years. There's a steady flow of lawyers wanting to get involved with planning and those who attend. What else is there for Marian Cover Dockery to do? What do you envision as next steps for LIWOCA? What's on the horizon? 

Marian: Well, one of the initiatives we've already started, and that's to have regional events. We had our first in Santa Monica this summer. Teresa Becerra, who's a partner at Spencer Fane, connected with me through one of our attendees, Rachel Patterson, who I guess she said, how can we do this? And I said, you tell me what you want me when you want to do it and I'll be there. And another attorney in Philadelphia, likewise, wants to have a networking reception or a reception actually to introduce LIWOCA to attorneys and partners who are unaware of the organization to help our organization grow. So in Santa Monica, there were eight to 10 attorneys, women of color. None of them had heard of LIWOCA. All of them were excited about it. All of them wanted to come next year and hopefully, you know, bring an associate from their firm. So I would like to see us grow, but I don't, you know, it's really not my decision. We have a board now. We have a planning committee. We were an executive committee. Personally, I don't want us to grow where we've got thousands of people if that were ever possible. I like the idea of having a manageable group of people because I think that the level of comfort for many of the attorneys who aren't real gregarious and outgoing to just approach someone and ask them for advice, I think it increases with a smaller, more comfortable number of attendees. I also would like to see us create a job board so that people know of job opportunities in the legal profession. I would also like a newsletter that would give the attendees an opportunity to submit articles that perhaps they have written or already published to help, you know, get the word out that, and also that's helpful for them if they are trying to develop business. So among our group of attendees, we have so many who are representing corporations like you, law firm, and someone may see an article and be impressed with it, and that might be an opportunity for the person who wrote the article for a future job opportunity. So those are some of the things I would like to see. This podcast is great. More marketing opportunities to get the word out about our organization. There's so much room for, you know, several of these types of organizations You cannot have too many And even though there are not a lot of women of color attorneys We are scattered all over the United States. And there is a critical mass that needs to be served. And just let me just say this, that you were talking about my past. My first job, legal job, was in a law firm where it was as a law clerk. And I was so disillusioned working in that job because one of the partners came on to me and I quit. And it was a small firm. It wasn't like it was a big firm and I could avoid this guy. And so when I heard that report, I understood how many of those women felt who left their law practice. Of course, I was just clerking in a law firm a second year, so that's not the same as having a permanent job where you're depending on that salary. But just think about, I mean, you know, I thought about that. I said, how horrible, all your hopes and dreams and your excitement and enthusiasm, you're going to practice law, you pass the bar, you're entering this firm, and you're faced with all these obstacles. So I think back 40-plus years when that happened, when I was in law school, and to think that it's still going on now is very disconcerting. But I believe that women are smarter now. They can be given tools and advice as to how to circumvent that. And, of course, we have sexual harassment laws. And, you know, most lawyers aren't going to sue a firm, but they have options. They have options to work in other places that are more friendly for women and that are really focused on promoting and elevating women. 

Philippa: Definitely, the LIWOCA does serve as a place where women of lawyers can convene and share their journey, you know, obstacles, share their successes, you know, meet, find mentors and become mentors. I mean, you have just really filled an unmet need and so glad you attended that American Bar Association meeting where you learned of the Visible Invisibility Study. And, you know, as we close, you know, what would be your message to any woman of color or any supporter or ally who is contemplating getting involved with LIWOCA or attending a conference? What would be your message to them or what guidance would you provide? 

Marian: Well, I would tell them to go to our website, leadingwomanofcolor.org, and register for our next conference and tell their friends about it. I would also say if you've already attended a conference and you'd like to get involved, email our administrator at [email protected]. Sue Ann Daniel will put you in touch with whoever is the president at that time. This year, our president is Gillian Crowl. So, you know, there's always room for help. And if you don't have time to work on a planning committee as a member, because it is a lot of work, we don't want to sugarcoat it. It's a lot of work. You can't practice law and then be involved in 10 other things and then this. Be smart about how you want to contribute. You can contribute to LIWOCA, as I said, by donating, sending an article to us, and, you know, we'll put it in a newsletter or sending your job openings, and we'll put it on a job board. That is the advice I would give to anyone who's interested. And then when they come to the conference, I would seek out a planning committee member and ask them what was involved. But don't get involved just to put it on your resume. You have to be committed because it is a time commitment. It's work. It's work. And let me just add this. It's a lot less work now that we have an administrator because we didn't always have an administrator. And our administrator is fantastic because she's also technologically adapted to doing everything. She has skills that we appreciate. And she is organized and she's worked on these conferences enough to know what has to be done. 

Philippa: Well, Marian, as we close, I would like to repeat that email is [email protected]. Marian Cover Dockery, founder and CEO of LIWOCA, thank you so much for your commitment to improving the profession, for helping others, for providing encouragement, support, financial support even for the law school scholars. Thank you for your legacy of excellence. Just thank you. 

Marian: Well, thank you, Philippa, and thank you for all that you have done over the years to help make the organization a success as our vice chair. 

Kendra: Wow, what a fantastic first episode of our podcast, and how amazing has it been to hear from both of you about all these wonderful memories of such a tremendous organization and one that I'm very, very proud to be affiliated with. So thank you both for your time, for all your efforts over the years, and we look forward to seeing another set of special guests on the very next episode of Inclusivity Included, the LIWOCA edition. Thanks so much. 

Outro: Inclusivity Included is a Reed Smith production. Our producers are Ali McCardell and Shannon Ryan. You can find our podcasts on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, reedsmith.com, and our social media accounts. 

Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal advice and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship, nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to particular lawyers in any given situation. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome. Any views, opinions, or comments made by any external guest speaker are not to be attributed to Reed Smith LLP or its individual lawyers. 

All rights reserved. 

Transcript is auto-generated.

In this episode, we spotlight members of Reed Smith’s UNIDOS business inclusion group for Latin/Latinx attorneys and staff. Join DEI talent development supervisor Bareeq Barqawi as she moderates an insightful conversation with senior associate Daniel Avila, senior paralegal Kathy Puente-Ladisa, and associate Isabella Lorduy. They share their unique career journeys, how their Latin/Latinx identity has influenced their professional experiences, and the powerful role that UNIDOS has played in fostering community and support within the firm.

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Transcript:

Intro: Welcome to the Reed Smith podcast, Inclusivity Included: Powerful Personal Stories. In each episode of this podcast, our guests will share their personal stories, passions, and challenges, past and present, all with a goal of bringing people together and learning more about others. You might be surprised by what we all have in common, inclusivity included. 

Bareeq: Welcome everyone to another episode of Inclusivity Included, Reed Smith's DEI podcast series, where we dive into the experiences, stories, and insights of our diverse firm members, clients, community members, and allies. I'm Bareeq Barqawi, Reed Smith's DEI Talent Development Supervisor, and today I'm thrilled to be joined by three distinguished members of our UNIDOS Business Inclusion Group for Latin and Latinx attorneys and staff, Danny Avila, Kathy Puente-Ladisa, and Isabella Lorduy. So Danny, Kathy, Isabella, could you each briefly introduce yourselves to our listeners and tell us about your current roles at Reed Smith. Danny, I will start with you. 

Daniel: Perfect. Thank you so much, Bareeq. So I'm based out of the Houston office of Reed Smith. I'm part of Reed Smith's international arbitration team and the complex disputes teams. I'm currently the global chair for UNIDOS, our Hispanic Latinx business inclusion Group, as well as the head of our pro bono for our Houston office. 

Bareeq: Thank you, Danny. And Kathy? 

Kathy: Hi, everyone. Thank you, Bareeq, so much for having me. My name is Kathy Puente Larisa, and I am originally from Quito, Ecuador. I joined Reed Smith over 10 years ago, starting as a paralegal for the transportation group. However, I just recently transitioned into a newly created role as the industry group administrator for the transportation industry group. It's a bit of a hybrid role. And I am also the Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion staff liaison for the New York office. 

Bareeq: Fantastic. Thank you. And Isabella? 

Isabella: Hello, everyone. I am Isabella Lorduy. I am originally from Colombia, and I am an associate at Reed Smith, where I'm part of both the Energy and Natural Resources group, focusing on international arbitration cases. And I'm also part of the Latin American business team. And And I'm also a member of the UNIDOS group here at Reed Smith. 

Bareeq: Wonderful. Thank you so much for your introductions. It's always inspiring to hear about the variety of roles within our firm. So let's dive into what brought you here. I'm really inspired to learn more about your stories and inspired to learn what made you pursue a career in law or the legal industry, specifically maybe in your current role, and how did that lead you to Reed Smith specifically? I'm actually going to start with you, Isabella. 

Isabella: So from a very young age, I've always been passionate about international politics and relations. And when I discovered the world of international law, particularly arbitration, it truly clicked for me. It's a field where I get to do what I love, which is interacting with diverse cultures, languages, backgrounds, and even different laws. So I think there are three key moments in my journey that led me to where I am today and being at Reed Smith. First, pursuing a career in international law through law school in Colombia, and then finding great mentors who not only guided me in law, but also taught me important life lessons. And then doing my LLM at NYU, passing the bar and transitioning into the US legal market. I thought that being a Latino was kind of a handicap or a difficulty in the American market. But when I discovered Reed Smith and found it as a place where I could leverage my civil law background, but also my common law knowledge and my diverse Latina background and everything that I have learned before coming to Reed Smith, I thought it was the right place, especially in the Latin American business team. So that's kind of the story of why I am here today. 

Bareeq: That's so interesting, Isabella. Thank you so much for sharing. I love to hear about how you thought it would be maybe something of a hindrance, but actually your Latin identity ended up being something of a strength for you. That's great. And let's go to Kathy. What about you? How did you find your way to read Smith? 

Kathy: So my career started right after I graduated from John Jay College. I always found law to be so fascinating, but my original career path was to join the NYPD. While I was in the process of going through the program, my path took a very fascinating turn when I was introduced to the world of law firms, and I was given the opportunity to work at Holland & Knight as a paralegal in the aircraft finance group. I found the work to be interesting, and I knew that that was going to be the kind of work that was like a great fit for me. And I then joined Watson Farley as a corporate and shipping finance paralegal. And I built a really great connections there. So all those experiences ultimately led me to the transportation group here at Reed Smith, when they were just starting to expand the transportation group in the New York office. And there was a great need for a paralegal support. So that's how I got my start here at Reed Smith. 

Bareeq: I love that insight, Kathy. Thank you so much for sharing. And Danny, what about you? Did you have similar experiences or was your path different? 

Daniel: I guess there's two different points here. The first, the path to law. And the second one is to Reed Smith, which I think deserves a little bit of separation. For law, my mom worked for United Blood Services her entire career, which is now called Vitalant. It's one of the biggest nonprofit blood banks in the country. She was the regional president for that company. That company supplies blood to hospitals and helps get donations. Blood donations throughout the communities and make sure that there's blood on the shelves so we don't have to scramble to try to get blood in a case of emergency, say of a car accident or something else, which is the case in several countries. In several countries, if your uncle or your parent or somebody is hurt or needs blood, you literally have to call siblings and family members to donate blood. Here in the U.S., we have great companies like Vitalant who make sure that there's blood on the shelves in case of these emergencies. So growing up, I would see how much my mom benefited from helping the community out. But more importantly, I would see her company being sued for something very trivial, like say you got a bruise when you're donating or say something else, right? And as a child, it made me very angry and I wanted to defend them. So as a child, I said, I want to be a lawyer for these companies that are helping our communities. And now full circle Vitalant is a client of mine and I was able to assist them in a dispute in Texas. It was really incredible to see that full circle as a child and now being able to help by talent, which was my dream. To Reed Smith, I think, is even is another more. It goes back to Reed Smith's values and their dedication and attention to diversity. When I was going through law school application or law firm applications in law school, I looked for firms that really had a focus in diversity initiatives, who put their money where their mouth is. And it wasn't just lip service. And Reed Smith did that. And when I was in law school, I applied for a diversity scholarship through Reed Smith, and I was very fortunate to get it. And Reed Smith not only gave me a position through the diversity scholarship, but paid for my 3L in law school, which was amazing given that I was working during law school. So it was through Reed Smith's diversity initiatives that actually got me in the door at Reed Smith and what's kept me here so many years. 

Bareeq: That's fantastic and incredibly inspiring. I love those full circle moments that you're having. So thank you all for sharing your experiences. It's clear that each of you has had a unique path that led you to Reed Smith. Now I'd love to hear a bit more about your career journeys. Was there a key moment or decision in your career that shaped where you are today? Feel free to share any specific challenges or obstacles you've overcome in your time. And Danny, I'm actually going to start with you and go the other way around. 

Daniel: Absolutely. I think one of the obstacles I had is I wanted to do international law, but my profile was very Texas-specific. I went to undergrad and law school in Texas. So I wanted to have a more diverse international profile. So what I did in law school was I applied and worked at a law firm in Bogota, Colombia. And that experience exposed me to how work is done in Latin America, working in the Spanish language. And it just kind of opened up the door to everything I do now, which is Latin American arbitration disputes and work in Latin America. So I think that was probably my biggest obstacle to overcome was to how do I create a more international profile? And yeah, I guess that's what I've overcome. 

Bareeq: I love that. Thank you so much. Isabella, what about you? 

Isabella: I can't think of a specific moment that really challenged me, but I guess my answer to this would be being constantly exposed to situations that I am really scared of and doing it anyways. I remember during law school, I was the youngest participant of the ELSA Moot Court competition, which was basically a cross-border litigation moot court. And I was really scared everyone was very senior, about to start their jobs at really big law firms. But I did it anyways. And it really shaped my career and who I know and my network today. And then after that, just going into the LLM and not being scared of taking the hardest classes and speaking with my accent in these very difficult situations. And constantly being exposed of being criticized or having it wrong the first time but then doing it anyways because I know I'll get it somehow, I think it has shaped my career and put me where I am today. Just the fact that I applied to Reed Smith with a lot of doubts and fears and that I got over that fear and being accepted into this great firm has been just an example of how being exposed to those fears always gets me to good places. 

Bareeq: Thank you so much for sharing that. And, you know, it's interesting. It's a vulnerable thing to share, but we've actually talked about it in other podcasts where, you know, when you have an accent or something that identifies you as someone that might not be from here and how that might come with some unconscious bias on other people's parts. But I love the idea of you did it and you scared anyway, which is a quote I always live by as well. So I love that level of vulnerability to share and overcome that. So thank you. 

Isabella: Thank you. 

Bareeq: And Kathy? 

Kathy: So overcoming specific challenges, I think that being a Latina, a minority woman, for me, particularly in the maritime industry, has been challenging because it's very much a male-dominated industry. I have to say what has helped me overcome those challenges has been having great mentors, having great supporters who truly value the work and dedication and who encourage your growth in your career. So I think those have been the things that have helped me during my challenges. 

Bareeq: Absolutely. Thank you so much for sharing. So hearing about these pivotal moments is really insightful, especially for our listeners. And I think it gives great insight to the people that they work alongside. And now I'd love to explore how your Latin / Latinx identity has shaped your experiences in the workplace. So I'm going to start with you, Kathy. How has your Latin / Latinx identity influenced your professional experiences? And can you talk about how it has impacted your work at Reed Smith? 

Kathy: Sure. My Latinidad has inspired me. I have to say that in our culture, we tend to be resilient and warm people, and those are very powerful traits. I love that in our culture, we blend strength and passion, and facing challenges head on and coming out stronger always speaks volumes. My experiences taught me to be adaptable, especially in the law firm industry. You have to be resourceful, always turning challenges into opportunities. And that's what I've seen me doing here. And I've been given the opportunity here at Reed Smith. So, you know, you grow and you innovate. 

Bareeq: I love that. I always think of the word grit. Like, I feel like if you overcome some challenges along the way, you develop this sense of resilience and grit where things don't phase you as much as they once did. As Isabella was talking about some of the challenges as well, you kind of develop this strength over time as well. I love that. And Danny, over to you next. 

Daniel: So I think how my Latinx or Latin identity influenced my professional experiences has been through being able to work in the Spanish language and having an understanding of the Spanish culture, or I guess cultures in language speaking countries. I would say that it's impacted my work at Reed Smith because I have developed, I guess I would say that I've always wanted to use my Hispanic heritage as a value add, not just a checkbox or anything like that. I wanted it to be how can I improve? How can I provide value at Reed Smith? How can I provide value to our clients having Hispanic background, being able to speak Spanish. And how that's developed, I would say, is being able to develop business in Latin America, being able to work on cases where there may be Spanish aspects or Spanish or cultures from Latin America. I think it's been a value add in that sense. Every time, at least in my younger years, or my first years at Reed Smith, I was one of few that even spoke Spanish. So it was very, very great for internal business development to be able to get every single case that came in that had some sort of Spanish aspect to it or was in Latin America. And now Reed Smith has done a great job of recruiting great people like Isabella and other Spanish speaking lawyers that are that now we have that value add across the board and various offices. So that's how I would say it's influenced my professional experiences. 

Bareeq: I love that. Thank you so much, Danny. And Isabella, what about you? 

Isabella: I think I totally agree with Danny on this. I think the more I own my Latin background, the more I take advantage of it. Definitely working at Reed Smith and understanding the Latin American business interactions, the political complexities of the countries, how the judiciary systems work within Latin America has definitely helped on the work we do a Reed Smith and really having this global perspective and approach to the cases has been great. And I'm constantly looking for the opportunities to leverage this knowledge because it's not only about the legal knowledge, which is, of course, crucial, but it's also about understanding the complexities of these Latin American countries, which are way different from what we're used to here in the U.S. And I think it's beautiful to connect both legal systems and, of course, cultures. 

Bareeq: Absolutely. And so many people you probably interact with, whether it's at networking functions or different clients, prospective clients, I'm sure that comes into play. And like Danny said, I love the value add. You didn't want it to be just a checkbox. It was something that added value. Thank you so much, all of you, for sharing those personal reflections. And now I'm going to shift to your involvement with UNIDOS. So how has being a part of the UNIDOS community supported you in your journey at Reed Smith? And why do you think groups like this are so important? I'm going to start with you, Isabella. 

Isabella: I think it has been great to be part of UNIDOS because it has created this sense of community and being part in a deeper level with like a Latino group within the firm. I think from the moment I started at Reed Smith, I was welcomed by the UNIDOS community. I felt other people with accents and we could share different stories about the Latino American community. So I think it has been great to have this sense of belonging even more to the firm just through UNIDOS. I think the initiatives have been great. I remember in the Houston office, we've always had, and also thanks to Danny, amazing events with tacos and chismecitos and these great initiatives that just expose, of course, the Latin American culture in a great sense, but also make you, as I said at the beginning of this intervention, feeling that you belong into the Reed Smith Latino community. 

Bareeq: I love that. What about you, Kathy? How has your time at UNIDOS been? 

Kathy: I have to say, like Isabella, it's been a great experience. Joining UNIDOS has provided an invaluable support through shared experiences, building a network, a space where you can meet people that think like you, that share similar backgrounds. And really, I think inclusion groups like UNIDOS are very important because they promote diversity. They offer mentorship. They create an inclusive environment where everybody can thrive. And they also help amplify voices and drive positive change within the firm. So it's been really a great experience. 

Bareeq: I love that, especially when you talked about driving positive change and Isabella talking about feeling a sense of belonging and feeling seen. Wonderful. What about you, Danny? 

Daniel: Yeah, I think I think I'd have to echo everything that was already said. I think the biggest thing that UNIDOS has done for me is just, you know, there it's a very like a collaborative firm, but it's a firm that has your back. And in big, huge corporations and big firms like this, you can feel maybe isolated if you don't have people that look like you or identify like you and have your similar backgrounds. And having these business inclusion groups helps you not only, like, say you're in an office that only has one Hispanic or Latino / Latinx person in the office. Well, you can still collaborate with someone that's in New Jersey or in Chicago. So it makes Reed Smith really be able to use their global platform and make it smaller as far as like being able to meet with other people. Now, I have cases with UNIDOS folks in different offices that have brought me onto their teams, even though I'm not in their office, just having that experience with UNIDOS. And I think another big part of UNIDOS that I've liked is having someone to be kind of a cheerleader for you when it comes to promotions, when it comes to just engagement within the firm. UNIDOS, I feel, does a great job of highlighting all our accomplishments. You know, what have we been doing in the community? What have we been doing as lawyers? So I think it's been an amazing journey here in Reed Smith doing that. 

Bareeq: Thank you for sharing, Danny. You brought up such a great point, which is making a community, you know, when you have over 3,000 members at the firm, it's hard to create that sense of community when you're scattered all over the states and over different countries. And so for need those to be able to create that for you all. And so it's so heartwarming to hear. So the importance of community within the workplace, as we talked about, is such a powerful takeaway. And as we wrap up, let's talk about offering maybe some advice to the next generation. To wrap up, what advice would you offer to younger professionals from diverse backgrounds who are considering a career in law or similar roles at a firm like Reed Smith? And I will actually start with you, Danny. 

Daniel: I would say embrace your heritage. Embrace your Hispanic or other diverse background that you have and figure out how it can be of value at and make you more marketable and valuable to your team. I've pushed that since I was going through law school. I wanted to make sure that how can I provide this value add? How can I develop business that maybe wasn't there to develop because there were these obstacles of language barriers or culture barriers? So embracing your heritage, being proud of your heritage, and seeing how it can be a value add and make you more marketable. 

Bareeq: I love that. Thank you. And Isabella? 

Isabella: I believe that it's kind of a twofold approach. First, I would say to absorb everything you can from your mentors. And in this sense, find people that you admire both professionally and personally and learn by mimicking their best qualities. But at the same time, discover what sets you apart, what makes your style kind of unique and embrace it fully. As Danny was saying, I think that leveraging that to stand out, it's a great strategy. In my case, I used my Spanish, my understanding of the legal systems in Latin America, my approach to the clients. And I think that has helped me to still find my style because, of course, I'm a young practitioner myself, but I am learning day by day that owning that Latino heritage has been great for me. 

Bareeq: Wonderful. Thank you, Isabella. And Kathy? 

Kathy: I have to agree with both Danny and Isabella. Definitely embrace your heritage. And for me, I have to say, sometimes life happens and paths change. And that's perfectly fine. The important thing is here to seek out for mentors and build networks like UNIDOS, because those connections really are golden. For me, I have to say mentors have played a huge role in my life. They've been instrumental in shaping my journey. And I would also have to say to people to stay resilient, stay curious, never shy away from asking questions or even taking risks. 

Bareeq: Thank you so much. That is wonderful. I think people are really going to, that's going to hit home for a lot of people. So I want to first thank you all so much for sharing your journeys with us today and for joining the podcast. Your stories are not only inspiring, but also show the value of community and support within the firm. And to our listeners, we hope you've enjoyed this episode of Inclusivity Included. Stay tuned for more conversations highlighting the diverse voices that make up Reed Smith and make us such a dynamic and inclusive place to work. Thank you for tuning in and thank you for joining and catch you next time. 

Outro: Inclusivity Included is a Reed Smith production. Our producers are Ali McCardell and Shannon Ryan. You can find our podcasts on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, reedsmith.com and our social media accounts. 

Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal advice and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship, nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to particular lawyers in any given situation. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome. Any views, opinions, or comments made by any external guest speaker are not to be attributed to Reed Smith LLP or its individual lawyers.

All rights reserved. 

Transcript is auto-generated.

Learn about the history, purpose and work of the Hispanic National Bar Association’s Health & Life Sciences section, as shared by its co-chairs, Gelvina Rodriguez Stevenson, general counsel at the Wistar Institute and Mildred Segura, litigation partner at Reed Smith. The discussion will be moderated by Anna Lozoya from Sentara Health.

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Intro: Welcome to the Reed Smith podcast, Inclusivity Included, Powerful Personal Stories. In each episode of this podcast, our guests will share their personal stories, passions and challenges, past and present, all with the goal of bringing people together and learning more about others. You might be surprised by what we all have in common, inclusivity included. 

Anna: Welcome back to Inclusivity Included. And today's episode is in partnership with the Hispanic National Bar Association. And today we'll be learning about the Health and Life Sciences section, along with co-chairs Gelvina Rodriguez-Stevenson and Mildred Segura. Gelvina Rodriguez is the General Counsel and Corporate Secretary at Wistar Institution, an international biomedical institute. Gelvina's career spans various sectors of the healthcare industry, including hospitals, academic medical centers, and pharmaceutical companies in government. Gelvina serves as the co-chair of the Hispanic National Bar Association's Health and Life Sciences Section and as a board member of the American Health Law Association. Mildred Segura is a litigation partner at Reed Smith LLP, a full-service global law firm. She is based in Los Angeles and is a member of Reed Smith's Life Sciences Health and Industry Group, specializing in complex products liability litigation, matters focused on medical device and pharmaceutical litigation in state and federal courts across the United States. Well, Mildred and Gelvina, excited to have you here so we can learn more about the Health and Life Sciences section of HNBA. Gelvina, can you give the audience a brief history of what was the inspiration to create the section and a brief overview of the history of the section? 

Gelvina: Yeah, great, Anna. Thank you. Thank you for that that introduction for putting together this session. Very happy to talk about the health and life sciences section of the HNBA. So we started this section of the HNBA years ago. And, you know, really the idea came when I had started my first in-house job, and it just happened to be in the health sector. It was at an academic medical college. And, you know, I got there. I was like, oh, I don't know anything about health law. So let me, you know, look for mentors. And I've been fortunate through my career to always be able to find, you know, wonderful mentors through the HNBA and, you know, LaLSA, when in law school. And I started looking around to find other attorneys who were in this sector and really couldn't find anyone. I looked around, you know, my, the legal department where I was, you know, other organizations and just really couldn't find any mentors, role models to figure out how to navigate this area. So, you know, having always been active with the HNBA, you know, doing law school and having served as a regional president for the HNBA, I knew that there were very active sections within the HNBA in other areas, business law, labor and employment, employment, compliance. And I thought, gosh, it'd be great if there were a health law section where I could meet other Latino and Latina lawyers working in this space and kind of learn how it works. So I proposed to leadership at the HNBA the idea of forming this section. They thought it was a great idea, and it was formed. So then at that point, sections formed, and we had to build the community. So basically, me and our co-chair reached out to people we knew who were in you know, pharmaceutical device companies, hospitals, and invited them to join. And then also when you're part of the HNBA, you can check off what section you're interested in joining. So we had members join that way. And, you know, over the years, it's grown to be a really wonderful network of Latino and Latino lawyers across the country who are either working in healthcare and life sciences or interested in it. And it really has become, you know, that mentoring, you know group that what didn't exist years ago so really really excited to you know have that come to fruition have it become what it's become. 

Anna: That sounds like really great work and it sounds like we needed that and you recognized that was something we needed so good work there and and for contributing that. 

Gelvina: yeah and so wonderful that the HNBA was just so open and willing to you know jump on a new idea and move it forward so that's always wonderful. 

Anna: Yeah yeah definitely HNBA is It's big about innovating. And as we grow as a legal community as well, expanding to meet the needs of the members. But I'm sure Mildred, as it sounds from Gelvina, that this is growing and growing. What do you find to be the most rewarding and most challenging aspects of co-chairing this vastly growing and expanding section here? 

Mildred: That's a great question, Anna. And I've been co-chair, Gelvina invited me to serve in that position maybe three, four years ago now, Gelvina, maybe, right? And prior to that, there were other co-chairs. But I know Gelvina has been there since inception, as she just described. And I would say, you know, during my tenure these last couple of years, I would say the most rewarding aspect of co-chairing the section has been the opportunity to make a tangible impact on our community, which is health and life sciences, lawyers, policymakers, students, right? People who are interested in maybe getting into this space or maybe don't even have a clue what the space really is. And I've had the privilege of working with really, you know, brilliant people like Gelvina, like yourself, Anna, and others that are in our section and learning just how vast this practice area really is, right, of health and life sciences and how much it encompasses. Purposes and um and it's nice as Gelvina said you know it's a place of like-minded people doing you know they're in different practices but under the same umbrella and we're all our goal is the same right to advance health care and life sciences while ensuring that our voices are heard in these critical areas whether it's representing our clients you know in big law or in public interest or in the government and so wherever you are it's it's a nice sort of place to come together and be be able to showcase, you know, what's going on in your practice or in this area. And it's a really collaborative spirit as well, where people bring ideas. You know, if someone comes to us and say, hey, I have an idea for a webinar that I want to put on, focused on health and life sciences, it's great, right? And we're learning as we go, too, because I'm a litigator. And so there may be ideas and trends that I'm not even aware of. So it's a really great way to stay abreast of what's going on in this space as well. And Gelvina mentioned mentoring. And so we do have students that are members. version. I would say that's the other rewarding aspect of this is the ability to mentor young attorneys is incredibly fulfilling, right? And we put on a CLE panel presentation at one of our corporate council conferences for the HNBA, which was focused on careers in life sciences and healthcare, because a lot of students have no clue, you know, well, what does that mean? You know, what kind of careers do you have within that space? And there was a panel of litigators, government attorneys, policymakers. Gelvina moderated that panel. I was on it as well. And it was great to see the type of questions that we were getting from these up-and-coming, soon-to-be lawyers. And on the flip side, you asked me what's been the most challenging. I would say is balancing the diverse interests of our members within the section, right? Because like I said, that I'm a litigator, Gelvina's in-house, we have people in government, you know, all across the board in transactional spaces. And so it's really, you know, trying to cater to our members, ensuring that we are responsive to their needs and what they're interested in. And so we try and cover a broad range of topics to ensure that we provide value to our members, which requires, you know, careful planning, constant communication. But these challenges also present opportunities for growth and innovation. Like I said, as a litigator, I'm learning a lot about other aspects of health and life sciences beyond what my firm offers, obviously, which also does a little bit of everything within the life sciences space. So that's what I would say have been the most rewarding and challenging aspects of being co-chair of the section. 

Anna: Oh, that's a lot. But it sounds like you and Gelvina have a good handle of that and having such a wide spectrum of individuals from law students to seasoned attorneys. And it sounds like your panel regarding careers in health and life sciences really try to hold in on the great plethora of opportunities for someone who's interested in our great section, our section that we love. 

Mildred: That's exactly right. 

Anna: From this section's name, health and life sciences, Gelvina, who do you think should join this section? And like, what are the benefits of joining HNBA's Health and Life Sciences section? 

Gelvina: Yep. So in terms of who should join, I think, you know, Mildred touched on this a bit. And I think she went over sort of the diversity of this field, right, and the breadth of who is a healthcare lawyer, who is a life sciences lawyer. And it's really anyone who's like, you know, knee deep in that space. Like you're on a hospital attorney or someone at a pharmaceutical company in healthcare and life sciences, or it could be someone just sort of interested in maybe exploring that space. Or it could be someone who's a litigator and they happen to have a case that involves two healthcare-related companies. They want to, you know, learn more about this space and how it works or just, you know, interact with people working in this space. It could be, you know, anyone from like the knee-deep healthcare life sciences lawyers to people who are just tangentially involved. And, you know, again, the spectrum there is hospital attorneys, pharmaceutical device company attorneys and other legal professionals, folks working in health tech, AI, which is huge in health care, health insurance companies. PBMs, pharmacies, labs, you know, government, AG offices do lots of the, you know, credentialing and licensing for health care providers. It's, you know, we cover topics in reproductive health, public health. We have lots of members who are working in the antitrust space. There's lots of activity and healthcare entities related to antitrust. So, you know, as you can see, public policy, Mildred mentioned that. And really just in terms of, you know, you asked about the benefits of joining. So, again, for the folks who are knee deep, like we get to, you know, get on these calls and say, you know, this is this topic that we're starting to see, you know, more of in our space. What are you all seeing? And just kind of share ideas and approaches. And, you know, for those who are not knee deep learning about the area, you know, and for students, you know, Mildred mentioned we have lots of students who join. And I think historically, healthcare and life sciences hasn't been like one of those key areas that you focus on in law school. It's not like, you know, securities, which is kind of all over. And so it's a new area. So we can provide, you know, mentoring and exposure to different career opportunities in this space, which is very exciting and growing. And we also coordinate with other organizations like the American Health Law Association and build liaisons there and share speaking opportunities that we're aware of that folks may want to be interested in, job opportunities. So I could go on and on forever about all the benefits of joining this section, but I'll pause there. 

Anna: Thank you. I can definitely say I have benefited both from being a section member, from Gelvina's mentorship, which is a benefit. Mildred mentioned that it's having had the opportunity to present at the American Health Lawyers Association and also learning. I know we last year had someone present on privacy and AI and how that affects our our industry. And that was really great and insightful. I was like driving, but trying to take notes. And I'm like, I need to pay attention. And so it was just really enthralled and learned a lot. And I was able to take that back into my actual practice and still have. And it's been very impactful. So definitely a great benefit. And so really, really appreciative of the section doing that. And I have a question for both of you. Can each of you share how the section has influenced your practice and your personal life? 

Gelvina: Yeah. You know, I think, like you said, just being able to meet other attorneys in this space like you and Mildred and, you know, work together. Yeah. And just finding that sense of community and others who've, you know, maybe are like in a field that I've been interested in or, and it's really just invigorating, right? Once you start looking for other Latino and Latina lawyers working in this space, we find each other and it's very inspiring. So, for example, we did a podcast series through the section where we interviewed Latino and Latina leaders in health care and life sciences. We, you know, for example, Lisa Pino, who was the director of the Office for Civil Rights within HHS, which is the office that enforces HIPAA, a really important position. So just being able to, you know, connect with her and, you know, expose our membership to people like her and really exciting positions like that. And, you know, she provided mentorship and advice on that call. Like, how do you get to these positions if you're interested? How do you navigate these positions as a Latina? So, you know, just being able to meet people and interact with people in this space has just been inspiring and made me feel very optimistic and supported in my career. So that's really been, you know, that's from a professional and personal, again, from a personal perspective, meeting other professionals who are working in similar space. You have so much in common and you can share so much. You become, you know, colleagues and friends, which is just wonderful. Yeah. 

Mildred: Yeah, and I would echo a lot of what Gelvina just said in terms of just on a, in my practice alone, right, having immersed myself into the section, taken on the role of co-chair, having to learn sort of, okay, who's our membership? What are they interested in? But more than that really was the friendships that I've been able to build. Obviously, your network expands, right, which is always great. And just deepening my own understanding of health and life sciences. Like I said, I come from the litigation side of life sciences. So to be able to speak with you, Anna, about risk management issues that impact hospitals, for instance, right? And sort of those folks that are in that space is important because it helps inform perhaps how I may be counseling my clients on my end when it comes to the litigation side. So there's this cross-pollination. I think that's very beneficial and is one of the things that has greatly influenced my practice by virtue of serving as co-chair. And on a personal level, I would say that it's just reinforced my commitment to advocating for our community. It's nice, yes, we have a place of like-minded folks who can come together, share ideas, trends, and practices that cut across the health and life sciences space, but also what we do for the larger community. And one thing that HNBA offers is something called Advocacy Day, which is a day where HNBA members, section members can go to Congress, and we have various meetings with congressional representatives on issues of importance to our section. So as a health and life sciences section, we, you know, one issue that came to mind was on mental health, which is a key issue for the Latino community and something that can be, you know, has a lot of, could be taboo and a lot of, you know, people don't want to come forward and say, you know, I'm suffering from mental health and get the care that they need. So to me, that was the first time I participated in that advocacy date program. So to be able and have these meetings with, you know, the congressmen and congresswomen and be able to talk about these issues was really a different experience for me that I had not engaged in before. So I would say, you know, that experiences like that is something that our section offers and that I would recommend to anyone. 

Gelvina: Yeah. And just to pick up on that point that Mildred just made, we also work very closely with the leadership of the health and life sciences section of the Asian American Bar Association, the South Asian NAPABA, SABA, and the NBA. And especially during the pandemic, we really were coordinating on health equity issues. And we did some publications for the HNBA on health equity to elevate being in a position where we could elevate those important topics. And as lawyers, a resource on how those issues impact our community from a legal perspective has been key. And, you know, to Mildred's point, being able to bring these important topics up at Advocacy Day has been a really important role for this committee. 

Anna: Yeah, I think this section is really good at doing that, bringing forward not only our issues and what we need as section members, but also for the community at large. And not just professionally, but also just, you know, the overall Latino, Latina, Hispanic community across the U.S. I know we also have written, Gelvina and I and a few of us others, we wrote an article on how we could give back and give our skill sets since we have such a variety of skills across different spectrums of areas, whether it's helping with wills or sitting on a board. I know Gelvina sits on several boards and giving back in different ways to impact to ensure health care equity within our community and not just out in the sense of professional legal realm. Mildred, can you share any exciting initiatives that the section currently has and any that they might have going on in the future with our listeners? 

Mildred: Sure. Good question. So, you know, right now our section is focused on a few key initiatives. One of them is creating more educational resources and webinars that address emerging issues in health and life sciences, particularly those affecting the Hispanic community, obviously, but also other trends that we're seeing that are of interest to our members. And we're also strengthening our mentorship program, aiming to provide guidance and support to the next generation of legal professionals in the field. This year, which kicked off in the fall of 2023, we kicked it off with a social media campaign, right? Because we know the younger generation is on Instagram and what used to be Twitter, so now X. And so HNBA has been really active in engaging with the social media platforms and getting the word out about sections like ours that are offered through the HMBA. So we had a social media campaign that featured myself, Gelvina, and you were part of that as well as our other vice chairs of the section to really get the word out about who we are, what's our mission, what's our purpose, right? We're here to serve you and to get more membership to join the section. So that's been one initiative in terms of just getting the word out. Other initiatives that we've taken on this year have been highlighting select members of our section on topics of interest. And we touched on this already earlier today. You know, we've had people from who are at the top pharma companies present on data privacy issues. We've had people within the medical device industry come and speak to us about what they're seeing relative to AI and life sciences and some of the implications coming out of that, both on the regulatory side and the litigation side, for instance. Instance, we had presentations on the impact of the recent FTC ruling on non-compete agreements, which now we have a federal court, right, who's come out and said, okay, you know, you don't have the authority to do that. So a lot of activity that's relevant to our section across the board, right, no matter whether you're in-house or at a firm or perhaps in government. And another initiative we had was focused on the Supreme Court's decision related to DOBS and reproductive health. And we put on a CLE panel at one of our corporate council conferences for the HNBA focused on sort of sexual and reproductive health post-DOBS, which was well attended and extremely timely just because of all the issues, you know, no matter what side you are on that issue, you know, it's always helpful to bring that to our community and have people, you know, have a discussion and a debate around those issues. More recently, coming up for our annual convention in September, taking place in D.C., we will have a panel focused on GLP-1 pharmaceuticals. It's called GLP-What? Exploring the Weighty Legal Issues of Pharma's Blockbuster Weight Loss Drug, which will feature our very own Anna, who's with us today, along with some other members of our section and the IP section of the HNBA. So we're looking forward to that. And we're busy working on some additional webinars coming up later this year, including one, like I said, on non-compete agreements, as well as because we are in election season, sort of the impact of the elections on health and life sciences. We know there's a lot of impact there and we want to be able to bring that to our members as well. And just getting creative, thinking outside the box. You know, this idea of this podcast, Anna, was yours. I thought, you know, it's a great idea. So initiatives like that, trying to get a little bit more creative in how we can, again, bring our section and the most value to our members as much as we can. And lastly, as Gelvina touched on, we're collaborating with other bar and healthcare-related organizations, such as the American Health Law Association, which you both touched on. And, yeah, so we're trying to do, you know, as much as we can, again, because, you know, we don't get paid for this. We do it because we like it, we want to. And it's, as Gelvina said, very inspiring and invigorating to be doing this work. So really lucky to have the opportunity to do it. 

Anna: That's a lot of great work, a lot of great initiatives, and I look forward to that. I hope our listeners join us so you can learn. Even if you don't practice in this area, a lot of that expands and cross-pollinates and touches different aspects of our daily life. Gelvina, so where can people that are interested in learning more about this section and wanting to just find out when is the next podcast or when is the next webinar, where can they find us? 

Gelvina: Yep, there's a number of ways. Number one, you can go on HNBA, Hispanic National Bar Association.com. And there's a drop down link to sections and you'll find the health section, health and life sciences section there. You can join that way. Also, as a member, you can join through your membership portal, but also you can join through the section portal. We have a LinkedIn page. It's HNBA Health and Life Sciences. So you can find us on LinkedIn and join that way. And we send out information about our upcoming events and activities via the LinkedIn page. On the LinkedIn page, there's also email addresses where you could email Mildred or me and we'll get you on the listserv. So we send out emails and calendar invites for the meetings. We usually have, as Mildred mentioned, a meeting at the annual conferences for the HNBA. There's two annual conferences a year, one in September and one in March. So we usually have an in-person meeting there. And then we have one to two virtual meetings throughout the year where folks can join. And like Mildred said, we have people present on topics of interest. But also, we start each of those meetings with everyone introducing themselves and where they work or what their interest is. And that's a really great way to get to know the community. So I would encourage folks to get on the LinkedIn page, join via the HNBA.com website, email us if you have any questions and, you know, come attend one of our meetings or activities. 

Anna: Great. Thank you for sharing that. I want to thank everyone for joining us today here on Inclusivity Included in our partnership today with the Hispanic National Bar Association Health and Life Sciences section. Thank you, Gelvina and Mildred, taking time out of your busy days as co-chairs and sharing with us your experiences, your contributions, and as well as all the exciting new initiatives and planning that the section has. Please join us next time on our next episode on Inclusivity Included. 

Outro: Inclusivity Included is a Reed Smith production. Our producers are Ali McCardell and Shannon Ryan. You can find our podcasts on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, reedsmith.com, and our social media accounts. 

Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal advice and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship, nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to of particular lawyers in any given situation. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome. Any views, opinions, or comments made by any external guest speaker are not to be attributed to Reed Smith LLP or its individual lawyers. 

All rights reserved. 

Transcript is auto-generated.

In this episode, we consider how to be our authentic selves in the workplace. Joining Clare Sutton, Reed Smith’s EMEA DEI coordinator and Multicultural Network (MCN) co-chair, are three of the MCN’s esteemed members: Dashni Khimji, Saiya Guo and Arlington Todman. The team delves into shared experiences and insights on being your true self while remaining professional at work.

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Intro: Welcome to the Reed Smith podcast, Inclusivity Included, Powerful Personal Stories. In each episode of this podcast, our guests will share their personal stories, passions and challenges, past and present, all with the goal of bringing people together and learning more about others. You might be surprised by what we all have in common, inclusivity included. 

Clare: Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Inclusivity Included. My name is Clare Sutton, and I am DEI coordinator for EMEA. I also co-chair ReadSmith's Multicultural Network. Today we have a very special episode discussing authenticity and being your authentic self in the workplace. I'm really excited to be joined by three MCN colleagues, Dashni Khimji, an associate in our real estate group, Saiya Guo, an associate in our global corporate group, and Arlington Todman, a desktop support specialist in our IT team. So thank you to everyone for joining me today. I'd like to ask you one by one to share a little bit about yourselves and your background, starting with Dashni please. 

Dashni: Hi Clare thanks for having me as always. I joined Reed Smith back in 2015 as a paralegal. I think it was in the real estate group. It feels like it was such a long time ago now and I've since actually qualified into the group. It's definitely been a bit of a journey for me and so I'm actually looking forward to having some real and raw discussions questions on authenticity. 

Clare: Okay, and Arlington? 

Arlington: Good morning, everyone. Morning, Clare. Thanks for having me as well. I'm in IT. I've joined Reed Smith in 2023. I love it here. I've been doing computer for 35 years, and I just like the chance to, you know, share some of my technical knowledge with the staff and the people and everyone listening. 

Clare: Thank you, Arlington. And Saiya. 

Saiya: Hi everybody, I'm Saiya. I'm originally from New Zealand and I joined Reed Smith around the end of ’22, start of ’23, so it's been about 18 months now. 

Clare: Brilliant, thank you all for sharing. So let's get started. So we often show the more professional side of our personalities, a more polished version of ourselves. Instead of bringing our whole selves to work, we bring a different version. So Arlington, what does it mean to you to bring your true self to work? 

Arlington: Well, it means to be able to, when I come to work, to speak to my colleagues as the same way I would speak to my family in a nice manner. Sometimes, you know, we get upset, but I let that, I try to let that fly. And what I do is I take the instances that I have with the team members here and the users and I actually just try to make it work and seem like it's friendly, common, and normal. As far as my original self, I try to be soft-spoken, don't get too angry, and I just let it flow. 

Clare: Thank you. And Saiya? 

Saiya: I think it means when you think about bringing your true self to work, it means that you're not putting on a different persona or that you don't feel like you need to be an entirely different person for work. I think you can just feel a bit more relaxed that you can feel yourself when you're at work. 

Dashni: Yeah, I sort of echo that as well. So to me, bringing your true self to work, you know, it goes beyond just trying to be your best in a professional environment. It's all about staying true to who you are and openly sharing all of your strengths and that that's what makes you who you are but I think a huge part of bringing your true self to work requires a lot of self-discovery and accepting who you actually are as a person so I echo what's already been said by Saiya and Arlington so if you're not bringing your true self to work you're almost masking who you are which can lead to a lot of confusion and wasted energy so I think bringing your true self to work provides a means to really succeed. It allows you to reach your true potential and feel safe enough to really be challenged. And I guess bouncing off from that, Clare, I actually have a question for you. What do you feel are the benefits of bringing your whole self to work and why does that matter? 

Clare: Oh, great question, Dashni. Thank you. So for me, there are several benefits to being your authentic self, especially in the workplace. place. And I'll just run through the top six that kind of work for me. So trust and respect. And that's like trusting the judgments and the decisions that you make, because that means others will trust and respect you in return because you're standing by your actual values and your beliefs. Integrity is another big one you know just doing the right thing um so you never have to second guess yourself then the ability to deal with problems is uh having the strength and the openness to deal with issues quickly instead of procrastinating you know i kind of find that once i start doing that i don't actually focus on what it is that i want to say or you know how i want to project myself realizing your potential is another big one so for me that's trusting yourself and doing what you know is right instead of letting others dictate what's best for you having confidence and self-esteem which means that you can trust yourself to make the right decisions when you're being genuine and doing the right thing which in turn leads on to a higher self-confidence and higher self-esteem and then lastly just having less stress. Just imagine the happiness and the self-respect you'd feel every day if you said what you meant and stay true to yourself being authentic to yourself is a lot less stressful than being someone you're not. And that kind of leads me me back to what you guys were saying previously so for me bringing my true self to work means leveraging my unique perspectives and experiences for my personal and professional growth. It's about being brave enough to be yourself and align who I am and by that I mean my personality my values and my emotions what I do my competencies and what I do well and then what I project so how I show myself to others that's very very important to me and I don't think that means that you have have to give everyone you know. Your personal details your family life you know what you do every weekend but. I do think it means that you behave in the same way as. You do at home so you don't create a different persona when you're in the office you should always be the same in the office as you are at home. So authenticity to me means being genuine and real but in the workplace we often feel like we have to hide our true selves or we tell ourselves that we need to act a certain way or say things to colleagues so that we fit in, even if it goes against how we actually do feel. So being someone that you're not is effectively telling yourself that who you really are isn't okay, which can make us feel lonely or disconnected from others. 

Dashni: Yeah, just to weigh in there. I think I read recently about this concept of masking. So many people put on this mask at work, don't they? And they try and put on this persona of an acceptable character. And it's mostly to just try and fit in. and I remember during my training contract and actually you know shortly after when I qualified, I felt as though I couldn't be myself if I wanted to succeed in this legal world so this this actually took a huge toll on me where I actually became quite reserved I was constantly comparing myself to others and I felt this great deal of anxiety and actually in turn this actually halted my performance at work and it became a barrier. And it was actually a barrier that I created myself. So I think you know when it comes to being your authentic self it's all about self discovery you know that that's a huge thing we're all constantly learning and constantly working out how to unmask but when I discovered who I was and I started putting all of my energy into that instead I ended up you know bringing my true self to work and it almost felt like a great deal of relief. I became slightly more confident and more accepting of feedback and I started to really to excel in my role. 

Saiya: No, I think it's true. And I think it goes to that concept of kind of the amount of energy that you would put into masking and also what Clare said about less stress. And I think unless you actually see the difference between when you're doing it and when you're not, you don't realize how much energy that you've actually put into doing it and how much that energy can be used into other things. 

Arlington: And going off of what Saiya said, it's the amount of energy that you dedicate to trying to mask and pretend to be someone for everyone else, when in turn, you're not being true to yourself. You're not being authentic. And that, to me, that's difficult. But I try to do my best to be authentic in many given situations. 

Clare: Have you kind of come across any situations where you were made to maybe change your natural authenticity and and how did you actually deal with that on the spot? Because sometimes something could come up and you may not actually realize that it's happened and then you walk away and suddenly think oh hold on a minute I've actually changed who I am just to be that other person. Have you ever had any kind of situations like that and what did you do to kind of get past it? How did it make you feel? 

Arlington: Well, I have a technician in my office and he's actually been here 25 years. And some of the things that he instructs me about, it sort of gets under my skin because of the way he speaks to people. And whenever I have any interaction with him, I find myself just being absolutely quiet, listening to his instructions and just doing things, whatever he tells me. And I got home this weekend. And I said to myself, wow, whenever I get around him, I just automatically shut down, listen to what he says, do it. And I said, no. So when I changed, I just started listening to him, responding to him, conversing with him. And now all this week, I find myself doing everything that he had suggested that I do, even when he's not around. And I find myself in a better spot for my work that I do. And it's thanks to him a little bit. So I've learned to take his suggestions with ease as opposed to being rubbed the wrong way when he speaks to me and thereby acting a certain way instead of just being my natural self. And it's actually, like I said, it's benefited me a lot. And I have him to thank for that. 

Clare: Saiya, did you have any comments? 

Saiya: Yes, I think in terms of kind of situations, I suppose it's not so much a specific situation that I'm kind of thinking about. But I think it's a general tendency, right, that if you're, let's say if you're in a group and you happen to be the odd one out or everybody else in the group is, you know, just from, you know, whatever common factor there is in a certain group, I think there's a natural tendency to try to adapt, to try to fit in. And sometimes you don't realize you're doing it consciously. It's almost unconscious. But then something might jolt you out a bit and you realize, hold on, I've actually gradually and gradually just moved so far towards fitting in that I've actually lost track of actually this is not really who I am or I'm more than this aspect of my personality that I show in this group. And you realize you've kind of drifted away from what was in your whole self. 

Dashni: Yeah. Yeah, and quite similar, you know, so when I was a paralegal, it's almost like you have this vision of what it's like to be a lawyer. And what you're trying to do is fit into this vision rather than bring your true self. And I think I struggled with that quite a lot, where it was like, it's such a traditional industry, isn't it, where you have to behave and act in a certain way. And that's what the clients expect. And that's almost what's expected of you in the workplace afterwards. And I think it is going back onto that whole concept of unmasking. It's about, you know, believing in who you are, your core values and trying to adjust them to the legal industry and also who the audience is. So, yeah, those are my thoughts on that. 

Clare: You're also right. It's so difficult trying to navigate that and, you know, not lose your cool, I guess, but still be happy with the way that you're acting, what you're saying. It's a difficult process a difficult juggling act so i completely agree with what you've all said um so i guess what we're all saying is authenticity at work is facilitated when we share core values with our colleagues you know the more that we embrace our true self is the more our peers will do the same which can create a positive work environment. It's not morally or ethically important but it's practical strategic because it leads to better relationships increased innovation, and more robust and thriving workspaces and communities. So I'd just like to share a quote with you all from Dr. Brené Brown, who is a research professor at the University of Houston. And she states, authenticity is the daily practice of letting go of who we think we're supposed to be and embracing who we are. I believe that authenticity can mean different things to different people. But in general, it refers to the ability to live by our values speaking our truth with assertiveness and developing the courage to allow our true selves to be seen. How do you think people can foster a more authentic and inclusive environment of work? And I'll direct that one to Dashni first. 

Dashni: Thanks Clare, for me I think the key lies in really knowing who you are and I you know I've echoed that elsewhere it's almost a journey of self-discovery um which isn't an easy one for anyone really. I guess you must really know who you are. You must learn your own strengths and weaknesses and work out where you actually add value. In a way, it's all about integrating your genuine self with the role that you play at work to create this harmonious and productive environment where you're really able to excel. 

Clare: And Arlington, do you have any thoughts? 

Arlington: Well, being my authentic self at work, again, I'm in IT. So to me, it's difficult because I don't socialize with a lot of people here at work. We just get up to deal with machines and everything else. So I guess being my authentic self, I just love being able to fix the machines and just chat whenever I can with attorneys, paralegals, and other staff members and try to be realistic as opposed to trying to be someone that I'm not. 

Clare: And Saiya? 

Saiya: I think it's helped to have lots of role models at work and in the workplace so that you can see that there are different ways of being your authentic self or there are different ways to practice law, to be a leader, all those different kind of things. And I think it's helpful to be able to see that and realize, no, you don't have to mold yourself in one certain way. 

Dashni: And I think what I actually quite like now is how diverse most law firms are now becoming. So when you look at a law firm page, you're now seeing all of these faces, faces that look like you, which, you know, 10 to 15 years ago, you didn't usually see. So I kind of echo the role model concept. I think it really helps. 

Clare: Yeah, I think business inclusion groups can be very important as well to help you be more authentic. You know, especially if you've got one that, as we all know, if you offer food, everyone's happy. Everyone gets involved. 

Dashni: Was that aimed at me? 

Clare: Ah slightly you know everyone has fun and it allows you to be more open and honest with the people around you which you know then in turn you know people see that when you're acting like yourself more they probably get to understand you a bit more because you're more open to speaking you know about your backgrounds even down to the foods you eat, your kind of cultures and your traditions and things like that so yeah I agree with all of you with what you're saying there. So while it's important to be authentic at work, some organizations do have different cultures when it comes to how much personal expression is encouraged or accepted at work. Some companies may ask for a formal and reserved atmosphere, whereas others encourage employees to bring their whole selves to work. For me, balancing authenticity and professionalism at work is important. No matter what your culture, I do think we should maintain professionalism, respect the company's policies and align our actions with job responsibilities. Authenticity should be exercised with discretion respecting personal and professional boundaries and being mindful of our colleagues privacy but I do think that showing up totally unfiltered could go down downhill very quickly but also if you hide your true self you might miss out on fostering the kind of relationships that can fulfill your life and your career so how much of ourselves do you think we should really bring? 

Arlington: I believe we should at least bring 75% of our whole selves. I believe if we come with less than 75%, we're only giving a percentage of what our job is, what our roles are, what our colleagues are. And then we're just not being who we are or true to ourselves. And again, I usually have a lot to say, but it comes out more in written form. I don't speak as much. That's another thing here. So I'll leave it at that. 

Clare: Arlington that's great because you're being your authentic self and that's all we can ask for. Dashni do you have any thoughts on that? 

Dashni: I think I do echo what you said you know we're in a professional environment you're you're acting for clients and I think while it's important to sort of foster that and bring out your true self you have to sort of maintain some professional boundaries because I think it's quite a new concept isn't it? And it's quite revolutionary in that sense. 

Clare: Saiya? 

Saiya: I think the true self, it doesn't have to be a static kind of thing. You can be your true self in different environments. Just because you need to be professional at work doesn't mean that you can't be your true self. I think there's different ways of expressing it. And I think it's about having the freedom or feeling that you have the flexibility to be your own version of what professionalism means within certain boundaries, within certain requirements. I think that it's just the fact that it's not one static fixed very rigid idea of what you need to be at work what you need to be in any certain environment. 

Clare: Brilliant thank you and so I'll ask you all what can we do to bring our whole self to work as as a firm as a collective. What do you think we could do to show ourselves more who we are without I guess you know kind of stepping on boundaries? 

Dashni: I guess i've sort of echoed it again throughout and that's that's you know to sort of enjoy this this whole self-discovery journey and you know start embracing journaling and start really enjoying to work out who your true self is and i think once you do that um you will start bringing your true self to work. 

Arlington: And just be more relaxed around others and and just let's have everyone enjoy our life. Just like Siaya said, it doesn't have to be in one specific dimension. It could just be overall. We could laugh and joke, yet have to maintain a level of professionalism. 

Saiya: Maybe some of it comes down to your mindset as well, or it's internally giving yourself permission to bring your whole self to work or your true self to work and just trying that and just seeing what that's like. 

Clare: It's just taking, you know, one small step at a time towards a bit of change. I like that idea about mindset. It's very difficult to, you know, keep inside yourself how much. I mean, like for myself, sometimes I struggle. I can give you an example, actually. So I've been in the new office and sitting with a new team now. I'm sitting with people that have never actually worked with me before. So they don't actually know who I am apart from who I normally project. Whereas now they see me more often. So, you know, my personality comes out. I probably laugh a lot more. I can be very loud sometimes when I get very excitable. I've said some really silly things that make me giggle and I've had some very funny looks with my team now so they never knew that about me before but I feel comfortable enough now that I'm in a space where I can do that I'm not going to be judged and and people will laugh along with me. So like on the back of that do you have any tips to be more authentic in the office? Can you think of any way that we can tell our listeners you know how to just not be frightened and to be brave? 

Dashni: I guess it's more about recognizing when you're not being real. So stop telling yourselves how we should behave at work and, you know, just start opening up a little. 

Saiya: I think it would be just along the lines of what everybody else has similarly said. You know, just kind of being open, giving a go, being brave about being your true self. 

Arlington: I have to agree as well. You know, just relax, enjoy yourself and just take things as they come. 

Clare: I love that. I love your honesty, all of you. For me, I guess the tips I would give are, they echo, basically. So, you know, working out who your true self is, you know, who you are, who you stand for, what you truly want out of your work life, and reconnecting with what's really important, you know, to ourselves, i.e. our values, our strengths, and our unique value. And recognizing, as Dashni said, when you're not being real, take small steps to open up. I think most importantly is setting clear boundaries, because your values always give clues as to what's important. So we should do what we can to protect those for ourselves, because if we allow behaviors that we deem to be unacceptable to go unchecked, then we're probably giving off a signal to others that their actions are okay. But by calmly and explaining how actions make us feel clarifies what your boundaries are whilst being true to your authentic self. And I think pushing for a broader cultural change because when we feel empowered to share our true selves and opinions at work with no fear of reprimand a culture of psychological safety then occurs and it just means that we all feel happy to open up and just be true. And finally this is to all three of you you've achieved so much in your careers so if you could what piece piece of advice would you give your younger self now that you have further awareness of what authenticity means to you? 

Dashni: Yeah I guess I'd probably tell her to stop being afraid that she is good enough and to accept the help like it's okay to accept help sometimes and advice from your mentor's. 

Saiya: I would say just relax a lot more. I think we don't realize how many thoughts go into our head about this is what we should do or what we should be. And a lot of those actually don't turn out to be relevant in the long run. 

Arlington: I have to agree with both of them. But I would also say just take things as they come, challenge them, accept them, and don't try to push away or hide away from certain situations. Let them come. And just like Saiya said, a lot of those instances that we think about really don't happen and they really take no part anyway. They just take up room in our mentality. That's it. 

Clare: Yeah, I kind of agree with you that it takes up a lot of space in the mind and creates a lot of worry and anxiety, which, as you say, probably isn't even there. Usually by the time you've said something to someone, you know, everything's dissipated. You can get on with life again and, you know, everyone's happy and it's all great. I completely agree with everything you've all said. So thank you all so much. It's been an absolute pleasure speaking with you all today. And thank you again, just for being so honest and truthful with your answers. Thank you, Dashni, Saiya and Arlington for sharing your insights and thoughts with us today. And thank you to our listeners for tuning into our Inclusivity Included podcast. Until the next time, enjoy the rest of your day. 

Outro: Inclusivity Included is a Reed Smith production. Our producers are Ali McCardell and Shannon Ryan. You can find our podcasts on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, reedsmith.com, and our social media accounts. 

Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal advice and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship, nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to particular lawyers in any given situation. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome. Any views, opinions, or comments made by any external guest speaker are not to be attributed to Reed Smith LLP or its individual lawyers.  

All rights reserved. 

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Reed Smith partner Simone Goligorsky and her father, Yuri Goligorsky, join Reed Smith’s Jewish Inclusion Committee co-chairs Carolyn Rosenberg and Jason Gordon to discuss Yuri’s inspiring story of resilience. Yuri recounts his incredible journey from being born in the harsh conditions of Siberia, escaping to Israel and eventually establishing a remarkable career at the BBC in London.

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Intro: Welcome to the Reed Smith podcast, Inclusivity Included, Powerful Personal Stories. In each episode of this podcast, our guests will share their personal stories, passions and challenges, past and present, all with a goal of bringing people together and learning more about others. You might be surprised by what we all have in common, Inclusivity Included.

Carolyn: Welcome back to Inclusivity Included. I'm Carolyn Rosenberg, along with my co-chair and partner, Jason Gordon. We are co-chairs of Reed Smith's Jewish Inclusion Committee, and we're excited today to discuss from Siberia to the BBC, a remarkable journey of both combating anti-Semitism and resilience. Our guests today are our partner and friend, Simone Goligorsky from London, and her father, Yuri Goligorsky. He's going to take us through an amazing journey as an escape as a child from Siberia, then to Israel, then to London with a remarkable career at the BBC. Without further ado, thank you very, very much to our guests. Jason, over to you.

Jason: Thank you, Carolyn. And we thank you both for attending this podcast today. Let's start with Yuri. So, can you take us back to life as a child and your escape from Siberia? Can you talk a little bit about what the conditions were like?

Yuri: First of all, thank you very much for inviting my daughter and myself. Delighted to be here. Now, let's go a little bit back in history. After Hitler and Stalin signed a pact effectively carving up Europe, they carved it up between themselves. My parents found themselves in the position where they were exiled from their native Bessarabia to Siberia. And that's where I was born. So to answer your question, I think it would be best to start from something which I couldn't possibly remember, but I was told about by my parents. On the The day I was born, the outside temperature was minus 30 degrees Celsius, which is minus 22 in Fahrenheit, I think. Believe me, that's cold. That's very, very cold. At home, we didn't have running water, so water had to be brought back home from a well operated by a wind pump. But there wasn't wind on that day, and the pipe got frozen. So my father collected some snow from the outside, melted it on the stove, and gave me my first bath. So, that's my love of snow and my father probably comes from that. I grew up in a rather harsh environment. I grew up mainly on a diet of potatoes, herring, cucumbers, and milk. Milk we had from a cow which we shared with our neighbors. So, to these very day, when my wife wants to make me happy, she prepares for me jacket potatoes with herring and some green salad, and that immediately melts my heart. If you ask me whether people could be happy in such circumstances, my answer is yes. Yes, in every situation, we must find a reason for joy and happiness. In other words, that's what's called resilience. That would help Jews to survive through so many centuries. And that's basically my life story there in Siberia.

Jason: Can you tell me what the anti-Semitism was like at the time? And for those who are not really the students of history can you talk a little bit about what it was like then?

Yuri: Jason remember I was born a year after stalin died he died in 1953 I was born in 1954 just before his timely I would say timely death soviet jews were on the verge of of being banished to Siberia, like my parents, which effectively meant a mass extermination. Jews were saved, yet again, by Stalin's demise. Purim's miracle, I would say it, because he died on Purim. The anti-Semitism then subsided after his death, but didn't disappear altogether. together. Antisemitism is often described as an irrational hatred, and I find this a bit disingenuous. Of course, it is rational. For me, antisemitism in the Soviet Union was based on envy, because Jews managed to survive despite every single, as they called, percentage norm or, The percentage norm is when people applied for a certain position, they wanted to go to university. People couldn't be accepted. I think the percentage norm at that time was no more than 4%. No more than 4% could be in any institution. But there were some very, very interesting circumstances. For instance, the head of Soviet TV in Brezhnev's times, a notorious anti-Semite, once told of the Russian conductor of the main TV symphony orchestra for employing too many Jews. And the conductor looked at him with a serious face and then said, guilty as charged, comrade. I am guilty, guilty, guilty. However, tell me, comrade, can you play violin? No? They can. That was the end of the story.

Jason: Tell me, how did you get to Israel? How did all of that happen?

Yuri: How it all started? I mean, I always felt as a Jew, and I'm not an observant Jew by all means, but I'm a Jew, always have been, always will be. At the age of 16, I started learning Hebrew with the help of the books smuggled in by the American Jewish tourists. Primers like Elif Milim or Mori were the most treasured possessions at that time. I was a rather diligent student of Hebrew, but to such an extent that at that time it was much, much easier for me to communicate with the visiting Americans in Hebrew rather than English. How else I could sort of bring myself to the Jewish world through Jewish music, Jewish songs, for instance, the recordings of the American Barry sisters. I don't know whether you heard them or value them as much as we did. For us in the Soviet Union, they were goddesses, and their recordings as well. I mean, people could charge enormous, enormous amount of money for the recording of these wonderful songs, to which I listened, I must admit, listened to this very day. They're on my recording machine, and I always put them to hear these wonderful voices. In a way, there were a lot of Americans. Israelis weren't allowed to come to the Soviet Union at the time, but Americans did come, and they brought some literature, some music, some artifacts. In 1972, there was an agreement, Strategic Arms Limitation Treaty agreement agreement signed between Nixon and Brezhnev. As a present to Nixon, Brezhnev decided to kick out the most vociferous critic of the Soviet regime, about 100 families. As it happened, I was one of those 100, and I took my entire family. At that time, I was 19. In 1973, my father, my mother, and myself were allowed to leave the Soviet Union. My brother was I was left as a hostage. He wasn't allowed to leave. And we were allowed to live on the understanding that I will keep quiet in the West. Otherwise, they would never let him out. However, I did exactly the opposite. I created a havoc in the world of publicity, and eventually, five months later, after we left, he was allowed to leave and join us in Israel.

Jason: And so, you were in Israel for how long, and then when did you get to London?

Yuri: I was in Israel. I went immediately to the university. I've studied cinema and TV at Tel Aviv University. And almost immediately after I finished my studies, I saw an advert in one of the local newspapers and that the BBC Russian service was looking for a relief producer for 20 weeks. It transpired that one of the producers was going on a maternity leave, and I had to come in her stead. And as one thing led to another, and these 20 weeks transformed into 30 years. By the time they realized I was still on the payroll, I was already in my pension age.

Jason: So you moved to London, and when you got to London or during your stay, did you ever experience anti-Semitism when you were there?

Yuri: Very interesting question. I came in 78, so 10 years after I came. One of the leading British newspapers, a supporter of the Conservative Party at the time, without a shadow of shame, concluded that Nigel Lawson's Jewish roots are sufficient grounds not to appoint him to a high post in the government. Nevertheless, Margaret Thatcher did appoint him as the Chancellor of the Exchequer, one of the most important positions in the British government. Talking about Margaret Thatcher, she had five Jews, five Jews at the key ministerial positions in her government. So is there anti-Semitism? I never felt any anti-Semitic outbursts at work, far be it.

Carolyn: So very interesting and Simone, you've been listening to this, your Yuri’s daughter, obviously, not sure how much of this whole story you knew or, but just curious, how have you been impacted? I mean, you're a flourishing partner at Reed Smith. We're delighted, you know, to have the story, but how have you been impacted and have you gone back to Russia?

Simone: So I have been to Russia. I've been to Moscow and I've been to St. Petersburg as a tourist in both cases. I haven't actually been to the country, so now Moldova, where my parents grew up. When my father left Siberia, he moved to Moldova and that is where he met my mother at school. So I've never been, but I hear it's beautiful. I know that the supermarkets in London stock wine from Moldova. So they've got a flourishing economy, and it's a place that I would like to visit. But when I visited Moscow and St. Petersburg, I did so as a tourist. I didn't feel any affinity to the country. It doesn't feel in any way like I have roots or connections there. And merely speaking the language I think was insufficient to create any sort of bond beyond something like a mere tourist feeling. In terms of how my father's story has impacted me, I think I will probably repeat this word quite a lot today, and it's gratitude. I think I feel incredibly grateful for the fact that knowing what my father and his parents and my uncle went through and how hard they had to fight to first get to Israel and then to the UK. I'm forever going to be grateful for the opportunities that I had to go to a wonderful school, a fantastic university that then set me up for life and the career that I have now. And the sacrifices that I know that both my parents had to make in order to provide the life that my sister and I now have. And I've said before, I'll say it again, it's just overwhelming gratitude.

Carolyn: So, you know, going back to Yuri’s beginnings with, you know, snow to be heated and potatoes to survive in and freezing cold weather, certainly an attempt to somewhat eradicate the family. And now the family has flourished. What's happened to other members of your family who've left Russia? We know about your sister and yourself, your brother, Yuri’s brother, Yuri, brother did make it out, yes? And is your family now pretty much concentrated in London or scattered?

Simone: So our family is very much scattered, I think. So my uncle, dad's brother moved to South Africa and played in an orchestra in South Africa before his daughter and her family moved to London. But actually parts of our extended family. Live as far afield as the US and Australia even. So we don't have many close relatives in London at all, actually. But what I find interesting is the story of my family, particularly in the US. So my father's cousin, and so he, my dad's grandmother, Sam, so dad's cousin's mother, that they were sisters. And she moved to the US and had a family there. And now her son, dad's cousin, Sam, became a judge in St. Louis. He and his wife set up their own law firm, practice family law in St. Louis. Their daughter is also a lawyer, a partner in a law firm in the US. So whilst I think that there are parallels now between our stories, I think the story of Sam's life in the US And dad's life first in Israel and then in London couldn't be more different because I think Sam really benefited from the American dream in the way that dad really had to be resilient and fight for everything that he's achieved to date.

Yuri: We are enormously closely close to each other.

Carolyn: That is apparent. And Yuri, speaking of your sort of living the dream or having the amazing journey, we understand you have that your sort of Soviet roots and backgrounds led to your consultancy on very successful productions of The Crown and Peter Morgan's play Patriots on Broadway. Can you tell us how your sort of experience and background informed your work on these productions? And I understand there might have even been an opportunity to rub shoulders with British royalty.

Yuri: Well, as far as rubbing shoulders with the royalty concerned, it was in 1990. I was then producer at the BBC World Service working on the English programmes. That was during the first Gulf War. And it was a rather intense time, to put it mildly. and one morning I find on my doorstep an invitation that Her Majesty, It requires and requires the presence of your company at the Buckingham Palace for tea and cucumber sandwiches.

Carolyn: Oh, you got cucumbers again!

Yuri: Yes, yes. Well spotted. Yes. And when Her Majesty requires the pleasure of your company, who am I to refuse? And my wife and myself, as you understand, I don't keep in my wardrobe a morning suit. We immediately had to fire down morningg attire because to go to Buckingham Palace, you have to be properly attired. And we went to a shop and hired morning attire and went to the Buckingham Palace. And that was quite an experience. Three orchestras, three bands, a majesty, her husband at that time, Prince Philip, their children, about 150, 200 more guests. We were standing around chatting as if we belonged to the place. I mean, the royalty have this fantastic ability to make you the center of their attention. I was privileged to take Princess Anne, the elder daughter of the queen, to Kiev to the first ever broadcast of the BBC World Service from the territory of the Soviet Union. That was in 1990, and she meant to spend with us at the studio there 20 minutes. Two and a half hours later, I still was describing to her what was going on and indicating that you were expected elsewhere, and she gently told me, Mr. Goligosky, I know what I'm doing. Please continue. So she was, I mean, that's something unique. They are probably well-trained, but when they talk to you, you immediately get an impression that there is nothing else but you and what you're doing is the center of their attention, and they're not interested in anything else. It's amazing.

Carolyn: How did you come about to have a role in the series The Crown and the Broadway show recently, The Patriot, which I know got rave reviews?

Yuri: Well, I count Peter Morgan, the author of all these productions, as a great friend. First, I translated one of his plays called The Audience. It was a hit on Broadway a few years back. I translated it into Russian and it became a smashing success in Moscow. It was running to full houses between 2017 to 2021, just effectively before the war started, with Ukraine. But after I've translated that and he saw how successful it was, he invited me to become a consultant on the Patriots, which he was drafting at that time. And in parallel, he suggested I should work as his consultant on The Crown, in the part of it where Her Majesty was meeting with the then president of Russia, Boris Yeltsin. So that's how collaboration grew up into a friendship. And I cherish his friendship very much.

Carolyn: You know, we titled this, you know, from Siberia to the BBC, a remarkable journey of resilience. But as a professional and certainly well-accomplished producer, if you were producing your own life story, what would you give it as the title? And what would you suggest were the enduring lessons learned?

Yuri: As a lesson I've learned, the most important thing is never forget where you came from, always remember where you go to, and most importantly. Remember who will be the ultimate judge of what you've done for the years. As to the title of my life story, should I decide one day to author an autobiography. It has to have clear Jewish connections that be understood by everybody. It has to have a double meaning, but also has to be sure. So I came up with the title “Mazel Tov[!]” with an exclamation mark as an option in brackets.

Carolyn: We heartily endorse that for what it's worth.

Simone: And I think if it were made into a film, I think obviously it would be George Clooney that's playing you, Dad, because the resemblance is uncanny.

Jason: Now, is Peter Morgan writing it?

Yuri: My daughter. That's my daughter.

Carolyn: Simone, there has to be a strong part for you as well.

Simone: Well, I would hope so. I would hope so. I think one story of Dad's history that I absolutely love that he didn't tell because there are so many fascinating stories is when he organized a phone-in with Margaret Thatcher when he was at the BBC and people thought it couldn't be done. People from Moscow phoning in, asking Margaret Thatcher questions. And we still have in our family home photos of Dad with Margaret Thatcher and also a snippet from the newspaper the following day where there was actually a cartoon done about this phone-in. And I think it's difficult to live up to these stories because in my day-to-day, I don't mix with Her Majesties and their children and prime ministers. But it's always fascinating to hear these stories. And Carolyn, to go back to one of your earlier questions, a lot of these stories I'm hearing today for the first time, I now know where my dad's love from hearing comes from. I don't think I knew that previously, but I knew some of them. I think it's always fascinating hearing these stories. And I think it's important that we continue hearing these stories and remembering these stories and teach these stories to the next generation, because I think that's how we're going to ensure that what my dad and his family went through never happens again.

Carolyn: And on that note, when you say, Yuri, you know, they said it couldn't be done. I think that's a remarkable legacy to you and Simone and your extended family of how you've, you know, overcome the obstacles and not only flourish, but had remarkable success. On that note, we wanted to thank you so much for being our guest today and to thank our audience for tuning in.

Yuri: Thank you for inviting us.

Simone: Thank you very much.

Outro: Inclusivity Included is a Reed Smith production. Our producers are Ali McCardell and Shannon Ryan. You can find our podcasts on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, reedsmith.com, and our social media accounts.

Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal advice and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship, nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to particular lawyers in any given situation. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome. Any views, opinions, or comments made by any external guest speaker are not to be attributed to Reed Smith LLP or its individual lawyers.

All rights reserved. 

Transcript is auto-generated.

In the final episode of our dedicated SAHM podcast miniseries, Gautam Bhattacharyya hosts Reed Smith partners Nav Sahota, Nathan Menon and Sakil Suleman for a conversation on identity and the power of cultural roots in shaping careers. The partners reflect on their South Asian heritage and the significance of South Asian Heritage Month 2024, and offer heartfelt advice to their younger selves and aspiring lawyers.

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Transcript:

Intro: Welcome to the Reed Smith Podcast, Inclusivity Included, Powerful Personal Stories. In each episode of this podcast, our guests will share their personal stories, passions and challenges, past and present, all with the goal of bringing people together and learning more about others. You might be surprised by what we all have in common, inclusivity included.

Gautam: Hello, everyone, and welcome to a special podcast that we're doing as part of Reed Smith's celebrations of South Asian Heritage Month 2024, which this year runs from the 18th of July to 17th of August. We are very proud at Reed Smith to have as a big part of our culture, a very strong focus on diversity, equity and inclusion. And this podcast is one that I'm really overjoyed to be doing because it's with three people in our firm, three partners of mine, three dear friends of mine who I have the utmost regard and admiration for. And I'm delighted that they have agreed to be my guests on this podcast. And I know that we're going to have a very informative and enjoyable discussion, not least because I know all three of these fantastic people so well. I'm going to introduce them first of all, and then we'll get into the podcast. First of all, Nav Sahota. Nav is a partner in our real estate group, has a very broad real estate practice, covering all aspects of corporate real estate and real estate finance and landlord and tenant work. And she is also the chair of our diversity, equality and inclusion efforts in London. So Nav, welcome. Secondly, I'd like to introduce Sakil Suleman. Sakil Suleman is a partner in our corporate group and has a very broad corporate and commercial law practice. He not only handles M&A and private equity, but also all aspects of commercial and technology law and franchising law. He was Nav's predecessor as the head of our diversity, equity and inclusion efforts in London. So Sakil, a very warm welcome to you too. Last and definitely not least is Nathan Menon. Nathan is a partner in our financial industries group specializing in structured finance, capital markets, and several other aspects of banking and finance, including, very importantly, social impact finance, which is a major part of our CSR initiatives. So Nathan, great to have you here as well, making up the triumvirate. And I'm much looking forward to our discussion with you all. So let me start off with you, Nav, if I may. What inspired you to become a lawyer? And who have been your key mentors so far in your career?

Nav: That's a relatively easy question for me because when I was 13, I got very interested in human rights and I joined my Amnesty International group at school. And that very much ignited me. A fire of learning more about access for justice and equality for everyone. And so that very much got my appetite into why law is important. And then I did work experience when I was about 16, shadowing in the Crown Court a circuit judge. And that very much brought law alive for me. And I was very intrigued by it, interested by it. But what particularly motivated me was when I was in the courtroom, there weren't really many people that looked like me that were part of the legal institution, particularly women or Asian people, people of color. And I very much wanted to be part of law because I feel that law has to reflect the wider community. And I wanted to be part of that change. And fortunately, I was very lucky at my school. I had great teachers that helped me sort of focus on how to do a law degree, which is what I decided I wanted to do. And so throughout my career and before then I think I've had key teachers that have helped me throughout there's Miss Porter my history teacher who very much helped me throughout the whole process and I think without her I would not have pursued law when I was in university I had an absolutely amazing human rights um he was a QC now I'm a KC who helped me once again very much with getting onto the city law path and ultimately as any asian I could say my biggest mentors would have to be my family and very much my parents have been like great supporters of me particularly my mom and grandma as well I couldn't say that my grandma was a very. Feisty punjabi woman and she very much you know wanted me to do whatever I wanted to do and to follow my dreams so I've been very much supported by my family and once I've been at But Reed Smith, as you know, Gautam, you've been a great sponsor. And there's been many people throughout my Reed Smith career that have helped me get to where I am today.

Gautam: Thank you, Nav. That was great. And you're right. Family is so critical as people who inspire and encourage us. Nathan, how about you?

Nathan: Thanks, Gautam. Following the theme of family, I was brought up by two doctors. So the idea of me becoming a lawyer was, you know, I very much rebelled by becoming a lawyer. What brought me to law? In some ways, I'm quite the opposite of Nav. I only really decided on my career path quite late in life. I did a history and politics degree before I became a lawyer. And I suppose a lot of the principles that I learned there in terms of importance of access to justice, importance of the rule of law, justice, it did have an impact on me sort of becoming a lawyer. In terms of my path, I'd say it was, you know, to me, I was in a position where I applied to kind of vacation schemes and junior roles at that level, which was at Richard's Butler, the predecessor firm to Reed Smith, and then was offered sort of training contract opportunities off the back of that. I've spent my whole life, a whole working professional life rather, at Reed Smith and I've been lucky to have a huge number of mentors that have been, you know, incredibly generous with their time, their advice and guidance throughout. You, of course, are one of them, Gautam. You've been an incredible source of support and guidance over the years. Especially, I've always found it's useful to have mentors that sit outside of your direct practice area. They can sometimes give a certain amount of space for you to explore ideas that you may not necessarily have been able to explore otherwise when you're working with people that directly work in your practice area. Another member of the Reed Smith team is Gregor Pryor, who's been, especially as I was sort of preparing for partnership and the responsibilities that that brings, he was very good at sort of guiding me along that way, and especially from a business development perspective. Finally, within the team I sit in Structured Finance, I've been very lucky to spend my career under the guidance of Tamara Box, who's been a wonderful person at bringing others up with her and being able to provide not only the guidance on careers, but also opportunities for you to thrive, whether that's in front of clients or business development opportunities or article writing or other forms of profile raising. She's been you know one of the most important and uh and sort of long-standing influences on my career so i've been incredibly lucky.

Gautam: Thank you Nathan and I think you definitely did rebel when you didn't become a doctor uh so uh but thank goodness that you rebelled because uh you know we because we've got you so thank you for that now last definitely not least on this question Sakil tell us a little bit about your thoughts on that question.

Sakil: Yeah, no, thanks, Gautam, and good to be speaking with you all today. In terms of sort of what inspired me to go into law, I think it was almost a natural evolution. I think from a very young age, it seems as though I was very much a go-to person when anyone got into any sort of trouble, whether that's sort of someone that's got a detention at school and wanted to write a letter of apology. They'd come to me to help them out, whether it's a parking ticket and they needed some help. So I think from a very young age, I was being groomed, I think, Gautam. But I never really thought about a career in law until sort of slightly later in my education life. There was no lawyers in the family and my dad and my brothers, they were very much into sort of business. A lot of it was kind of retail consumer focus so I always thought that was an area that I'd sort of follow in when I was doing my A-levels I think there was a business studies teacher that you know when you talk about mentors I would say that he was one of my early mentors and my academics up to that stage were quite strong and this teacher had been a lawyer and then went into to banking before he had a total change in career and became a teacher. And he took me under his wing a bit and sort of started telling me about the legal sector and corporate life. And that's what really sort of piqued my interest just before I sort of started my degree. And once I'd sort of looked into it, I caught the bug and I felt that that would be a good avenue for me to pursue you because I i could still sort of go into sort of my areas of interest which were generally business and commerce but to do that with a professional qualification and and to to do it in the city was something I’d sort of targeted from that stage onwards.

Gautam: Thank you Sakil, you know that's it's it's been really good to hear from all three of you as to how you started out and because I think these are the sorts of stories that especially lots of young aspiring inspiring lawyers and the next generation who will follow us will be much enriched by. So thank you, Sakil. Now, I want to turn next to something which, let's face it, is something that many people from an ethnic minority background face when pursuing a career like law, and that there are bound to be challenges that we face. And I know I've certainly faced many challenges when I was looking back in the course of my career. I'd like to ask each of you to spotlight one challenge that each of you has faced in the course of your career to date and how you've overcome that challenge so I wonder if I could on this one start with Nathan?

Nathan: Thanks Gautam. Yeah me I think there's a particular distinction I think to be drawn here between, all of us as lawyers and all of us in our day-to-day lives and I think the challenge that I've encountered is maybe slightly different to what others may draw on. In a professional context, when I joined the firm in 2011 as a trainee, and I'm happy to say that I don't think I've ever encountered by colleagues or by people on the other side of transactions or in a professional context, any sort of racist abuse or any problems of that nature, which I think shows how far we've come on the journey there's still room to travel for sure but I compare that with you know my my parents both of whom were junior doctors working in A&E in in northern uh sometimes mill towns in the 1970s when their life was incredibly different they would be on the wards with um the threat of of racist abuse being part of their day-to-day life and part of and and a sort of occupational hazard as it were I was fortunate enough not to have that. What where I have experienced things is outside of that professional environment and I think that's where my interest in a lot of these DE&I activities only came to me quite you know in in recent years I'm thinking in particular when you know the sort of uh the events that that happened in the US around, you know, the murder of George Floyd in 2020. And, that what that sort of sparked in me was a willingness to try and engage with some of the issues at play but also try and understand what members of my family went through in previous generations and I think a lot of that was linked to the fact that my parents both around that time coming up to and and were preparing for retirement where they were able to speak more openly about issues when previously they weren't because they thought it may be held against them and a couple of lessons I think sort of got pulled out of that one is you know I was always told growing up and my parents and they probably still say to me to a certain extent today you know keep your head down work hard and you achieve what you want don't go out trying to start trouble don't try and you know try and put your head above the parapet and and and you know draw too much attention to yourself if you just get on with things things will come to you and in some ways that's really noble message but in other respects actually it just sort of encapsulates a kind of uh an acceptance of racism that means that you have to approach your life in a different way to someone that wasn't of a South Asian background. And if you look at this, you know, and I look at sort of where, you know, racism or issues of that nature kind of impact my life, it's certain things that happen, not particularly regularly, but it's, you know, when you go to travel, you realize that, you know, the security that you have to go through, there's always another security check that you have to go through that doesn't seem to impact anybody else. You know, there's people talking at you a certain way if you're asking for additional help in a shop, you know, things like that. And how I've overcome those problems. It's a difficult one to answer because it's not something that I think can always be overcome in such a straightforward way. The way I've dealt with it really is to learn more about the journey that we've been on. As I mentioned earlier, I did a history and politics degree. And I have only recently sort of grappled with and learned some of the history of the empire, which is for whatever reason is not taught at school. It's only now people are starting to talk about it being taught in schools. And learning about that journey that we've been on as a as a British Asian community in the UK and a British Asian community coming to the UK I think gives me a lot of hope and a lot of positive messages for the journey that we can go on because you've seen the progress that's been made it's now a case of building on that momentum and trying to uh and trying to you know make make lives better for for for everyone in this country.

Gautam: Thank you Nathan. Nav, how about you?

Nav: Hi just sort of carrying on from what Nathan was mentioning, I don't know whether anyone has watched the Channel 4 documentary, Defiance, Fighting the Far Right in the 70s and 80s, which came out earlier this year in March. And I think for me, that very much sort of put in context the challenges of what my parents' generation went through and how, you know, because of them, I've had a very much smoother journey because of the way that they've sort of challenged being treated as a different culture and not being British. And they, the journey that they've been on, I found very inspirational and watching that documentary sort of brought it home because I've only ever heard of snippets of it from my parents. And I think looking on that, my own journey within, you know, the law has been very smooth. And that's only thanks to all the defiance and, you know, that the previous generations have shown. I think what I have felt various challenges with it is very much in line with the theme of this year's South Asian Heritage Month topic which is free to be me and I think when I was junior in my career I had a very sort of you know a very specific personality outside of work which was very outgoing and you know sort of gregarious and then in the in the office I very much just wanted to sort of as Nathan was saying not being seen and get on with things and part of that was my own insecurity of not sort of you know actually embracing my difference my culture but I would say that as I've you know I work in a wonderful team the real estate group in Reed Smith and it's a very friendly open group and that's very much brought me brought my sort of home me my work me very much aligned and I think being in that sort of safe open environment where I can mention you know which is what I've been doing in the last Last few weeks, I spent 10 days in California going to 20 wedding events my cousins had, which is something that previously I probably wouldn't have mentioned. So I think I have faced challenges, but a lot of them have come from within me, if you understand what I mean, that I sort of put all the limitations on myself, which were unnecessary.

Gautam: Yeah, no, no. I tell you what I'm saying. And I think you deserve a medal for going to 20 events, 20 wedding events. So I'll certainly give you a medal for that one. Sakil, how about you? Just tell us a little bit about your challenges and your thoughts on that.

Sakil: Yeah, no, I very much resonate with, I think, a lot of what Nav and also what Nathan has said. I think it's twofold. And part of it really is what's within yourself and your own perceptions, right? And, you know, in terms of our own parents and the first generation, the sort of resilience that they showed, to be honest, they had it much tougher than I think we have. And as Nathan says, the situation is improving. There's lots more to be done, but it's certainly going in the right direction for future generations. I think in terms of some of the challenges, I think it's sort of worth flagging. The first one really is entry into the profession. And again, you know, if you speak to sort of the generation now, they may tell you similar stories. But certainly in my time, there was a lack of representation. You know, you couldn't see people that looked like you in senior positions within the profession. Profession and and inherently that made you doubt whether this is a career that you'll be accepted in or whether you could be be yourself I was sort of slightly naive Gautam when when it came to sort of applying for training contracts I said I didn't have any family within the law and didn't really have any connections that that could kind of guide me so yeah simple things like uh when to to apply and kind of what approach you should take in applying to city law firms. That was all very new to me. And to be honest, I think I was quite lucky and blessed that I managed to get a training contract quite easily within the second year of my degree compared to the journey that some of my peers had at the time. And what I see now, retrospectively, I was quite lucky. But one story really sticks out in that journey where as I said my academics were always quite. Strong and and I always thought that would be enough to kind of get get me to where I wanted to be so that that kind of came as a bit of a shock to me when I started applying to you know the magic circle and within a couple of days you kind of get get the rejection back and you think have they even read my application so it soon became clear that you probably need to do be be doing more, the academics aren't. Aren't enough. And I remember I had one interview at a city law firm, which went well. And the partner that I met there sort of said to me, look, your CV, your application is spot on, you present really well. But just the way that you're dressed, you know, the shoes that you've got on, the tie that you've got on, you can't be wearing that to an interview. And looking back at Now, it was really obvious, but no one had said that to me because I didn't have those sorts of mentors at the time. And that partner spent sort of a good 15, 20 minutes with me just talking with me about sort of the expectations and how I'd need to adjust certain things to sort of fit in. And that, I think, was sort of a tipping point for me because I sort of soaked that up. And then I reached out and sort of spoke to more people. And in the end, I managed to get a good training contract. But I think kind of that 15, 20 minutes that that partner spent to me sort of, you know, closing the books and putting the formality aside and just kind of guiding me. I remember that to this day. And it just shows that sort of small things that you can do can make a real impact for people. So that's one thing that really stuck out. The second thing I think in terms of challenges, it's worth mentioning, and again, this was sort of more my own perception and my own self-doubt, was when I did start, my training contract started working in the early days, it was clear that. You know, the pub culture, alcohol was a big part. And that was difficult for me, given sort of, you know, I don't drink. And you sort of begin to question, well, would I need to sort of change myself to fit in? And again, that's where sort of the culture of a firm becomes really important, because you need to be comfortable that you will be accepted in that environment for who you are. And, you know, there are certain things that you can compromise on like what you wear and how you present yourself there are other things that if you feel strongly enough you shouldn't have to compromise on and I was lucky enough to be in a firm that had a very open and flexible culture and I managed to sort of navigate that challenges but a lot of it was me questioning myself and it was only really with that experience I managed to sort of overcome that and say look no there are certain things that you can just be your true self, as Nav was saying.

Gautam: Thank you all very much. Those are just incredibly uplifting messages to hear from all of you. Even though I know you so well, all of you so well, I've certainly learned, I've got more insights into all three of you from those answers. So thank you very much indeed. The next thing I want to move on to is, there's no doubt, and I can say this because the three of you won't say it openly, but the three of you are great examples of achievement. You've achieved very well. You're great at what you do. And as evidenced by our discussion that's just gone, you've seen things in a perspective and you've driven yourselves forward and you've made those achievements happen. If you were to look back, because one of the things about South Asian Heritage Month is that it inevitably involves people looking back. As well as looking forward and giving younger generations some inspiration. And again, I can say this because you three won't say it about yourselves, but you are three incredibly inspiring people. If you were to each look back and give your younger self one piece of advice, that would help someone from a generation yet to come, rather, doing what we do what would that be and let me start here with you Sakil i'll go back to you again Sakil and ask you to share one thought and then I'll ask Nav and then Nathan to share a thought too.

Sakil: Sure I guess I'm I i think kind of again looking back the the tip I would give my younger self is be proud of who you are and embrace your diversity and the value and the the benefit that that diversity can bring to your firm. I think I'd advise my younger self to be more confident in who I am and the value that I bring to a firm. So less pressure about conforming and embracing your diversity. And one thing I'd mentioned to sort of highlight that is, like a lot of Asian parents, what my parents always sort of said to me and instilled in me and obviously. - They they came into the uk in the early 70s where there were all sorts of challenges, and and you know what what worked for them and what they always sort of ingrained in me is you've got to work twice as hard as anyone else to kind of be at the same level and they kind of that into me and that was something that kind of stuck with me throughout my life when I when I was studying and and that's something I brought to work as well kind of that work ethic and when you speak to some of the younger generation now you know rightly they question well should we have to do that should we have to work twice as hard as as the next person to achieve the same thing and and the answer is probably not if you're looking at it in terms of you know parity and fairness but it doesn't do you any harm you know if you can kind of it's it if it's sort of part If it's part of your culture, it's something you've grown up with, embrace it. And if it means that it helps you succeed, that's a great thing. So the advice I'd give to my younger self is be proud of it and embrace it.

Gatuam: Thank you, Sakil. Nav, how about you?

Nav: I think pretty much what Sakil said, he stole my thunder. I was going to say pretty much the same thing that very much see your difference as your strength because your employers will, your clients will. And I think looking at me off, I remember one of my very close friends said to me, she goes, oh, you're very good at networking. And she goes, I think it's because you've obviously, you were telling me when you were growing up, your parents used to have all these big events where you'd go to these functions and you were left very much go to speak to anyone your age and you're used to finding something in common with everyone and I never really thought of that as something cultural I just thought oh and at the time I very much resented having to talk to all and sundry but I very much think there are strengths in your culture that you sometimes can't see but they are inherently there so I would say to anyone young you know and this is something that I didn't do so I feel that I probably should have done is sort of lean into those strengths so for example it's never too early to start networking and make those connections within your community within the industry that you're working with and you will naturally find mentors and sponsors like very much Gautam the first time I met you was when I was very new to the firm at a firm party and you came and introduced yourself to me and since then you've very much become a sponsor, and that was very much through natural, fluid networking. And I think there are so many within our cultures, and it's bearing in mind it's a very varied culture within South Asia, but there is so much sort of connection, helping each other. Being together as a community, and that very much, that collaboration will set you off very well in a legal career and other careers as well. Thank you, Nav. Last, definitely not least on this question, Nathan.

Gautam: Thank you. I think one of the best things about doing this podcast, Gautam, is just hearing other people's stories and knowing that, you know, a lot of these things that Asian parents came out with, you're not the only one that's heard them, right? Yeah, working twice as hard, I think, was almost a daily mantra that was recited in the Menon the Household, I think, almost certainly. I think, you know, Nav and Sakil really hit the nail on the head. The one I would say is use opportunities to help educate people. You'll be surprised how interested people are in in south asian culture it's very much sort of transcended into british culture in many ways I mean I remember growing up watching Goodness Gracious Me on tv and it still blows my mind a little bit that in the mid to late 90s there was you know Asian faces on primetime BBC one making jokes about you know um an uncle who thought everything came from India because I had an uncle that thought everything came from India.

Gautam: Yeah I remember that exactly!

Nathan: I think you know using that covid really taught me that clients in particular are really interested not just in in people that can give them great legal advice but in the people that we are because they get on and they instruct us because they like us as people and they get on with us as people and you got a window into your clients lives during in covid you saw cats and dogs in the background and children running off with the camera and you know playing and bringing their parents some toys to play with or whatever and I had a lot of clients that would talk to me about about things that I wouldn't normally get a chance to speak to them about some of that has linked into sort of my cultural background a lot of my clients are interested in you know where my family originally came from in south India um languages that we speak festivals that we celebrate or how we celebrate festivals a bit differently from in in other parts of India and I think using that as an opportunity to you know help spread that knowledge and South Asian Heritage month is part of that as well taking those opportunities even if they're little small ones just to you know help help educate people you'll learn something as well and you'll learn about you know about other people's cultures in the same way uh just taking those opportunities what I would the advice i'd give a give my younger self if I could.

Gautam: Well, look, thank you. You know, these stories are so instructive, especially as we move into South Asian Heritage Month, because we are all a product of our heritage. Our heritage is a strength. It's a real, I believe, a real superpower that we have. It makes us who we are. And there's a huge diversity, as Nav, you mentioned. South Asian Heritage Month is a real mixture of lots of different types of heritage from different countries, geographies, cultures, religions. Traditions. It's epitomized by the three of you, in fact. I mean, you're a perfect microcosm, the three of you, Sakil, Nav, and Nathan, of that diversity amongst South Asian heritage. And I'm just incredibly grateful that we had a chance to do this podcast together, and listeners will be able to listen to your stories and be enriched by them. And I know they will be. I want to end as we always do, because time has caught up with us. I always end these podcasts with a bit of lighthearted conversation. So again, we find out a bit more about the person that we're speaking to. And there's three of you, and I've got three questions. I'm going to pose a different question to each one of you. And it's just a bit of fun, a quick, sharp response is perfect. I'm not going to be interrogating you too much on these questions but let me start with uh Nav on this one have you got a favorite album and if so which one is it?

Nav: I'm probably the worst person to ask this question because I like songs from different artists and no one specific album but I would say that growing up my favorite two artists to show how diverse it were um was Smashing Pumpkins and Dr. Dre so I cover all bases places.

Gautam: That is a brilliant choice, actually. You do cover lots of bases with that, actually. I love it. I love it. Brilliant. Okay, let me ask the next one of Nathan. Okay. Have you got a favourite film? And if so, which one is it?

Nathan: Yeah, my favourite film is a film called A Bronx Tale, which is Robert De Niro's directorial debut made in the mid-90s, a gangster film about about a son and influences from the mob and influences from his dad and the message of that film which is is something that I think about I probably think about far more often than I should is the worst thing in life is wasted talent that is a very very important thought actually yeah so there is a strong message in the bronx tale it's a great film if if if you If you haven't seen it, I would sort of strongly recommend it.

Gautam: Yeah, it shouldn't go under the radar, that film, for sure. And again, look, last, definitely not least, my dear friend, Sakil, I'm going to give you the task of bringing this podcast to a close with this question. Have you got a favourite travel destination that you've been to? Or, and I'm going to give you an alternative you might want to answer, is there a place that you've not been to so far that you'd love to visit?

Sakil: Right, so I think I'll take you up on that second proposition there, Gautam. Again, I've been fairly lucky in that I've travelled fairly extensively, and in particular, South Asia, obviously, Middle East, Africa, and that sort of combination of work and leisure. The one place that I haven't had the chance to go to yet, which my wife, when we got married, was somewhere that she'd sort of flagged. And we didn't quite get to go there at the time and said that we would explore that region. But once you get sort of, you know, four kids and sort of a family, it's never transpired. But we've still got it on our bucket list. And that's China. We'd love to sort of explore China. A number of reasons for that. Food and culture are kind of top of the list. But yeah, that's something that we talk about a lot. And at some stage, we would like to spend some time out there. So I'd say China.

Gautam: Superb. Well, thank you for closing things out so spectacularly, Sakil. Well, look, But it just leaves me to express huge appreciation to the three of you, Nav, Nathan, and Sakil, not just for being such wonderful friends of mine. And I repeat myself. I'm extremely fond of all three of you. I admire you. I respect you hugely. Thank you for taking part in this podcast. It's a very important podcast. It's something that I know is very important to all four of us and to others in our firm and many, many others. And that is South Asian Heritage Month and the importance of who we are, our backgrounds, our heritage, what we believe in, and bringing our whole selves to who we are and what we are and what we do. And so I'm extremely grateful to you all for taking time out for this podcast and I'm sure that many many listeners are going to enjoy listening to what you've all said so thank you all very much and I'll see you all very soon.

Outro: Inclusivity Included is a Reed Smith production. Our producers are Ali McCardell and Shannon Ryan. You can find our podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, reedsmith.com and our social media accounts. 

Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal advice and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship, nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to particular lawyers in any given situation. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome. Any views, opinions, or comments made by any external guest speaker are not to be attributed to Reed Smith LLP or its individual lawyers. 

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