INTERBEING by AnimalConcepts

John Webster is Professor Emeritus and former Head of the Veterinary School at Bristol University. He studied veterinary science as he wanted to help animals. He is also a founding member of the Farm Animal Welfare Council and first propounded the ‘Five Freedoms’ as a standard for defining the elements of good welfare in domestic animals.

John highlights the importance of animal welfare science for veterinarians and talks about the insights of the animals. He discusses how "sentient animals do not live only in the present” and how having emotions matters in addition to understanding the duty we have of looking at animals' minds.

Sabrina and John discuss the constant endeavor to act according to what is right, not simply that which is regulated, and what we perceive to be the right decision for the animals.

John explains to us the ethics and politics of animal welfare, and our moral duty to minimize any distress that comes from our actions while giving them a life worth living.

John dives into the topics of his books ‘Animal Welfare: A Cool Eye Towards Eden’, ‘Animal Welfare: Limping Towards Eden’, and his forthcoming book on animal sentience seen through a Buddhism lens. 

John talks about the meat and dairy crisis, the unsustainability of it, its impacts, and the need for reducing consumption. Sabrina shares the importance of applying this to zoos and aquariums for animal welfare and from an environmental sustainability perspective.

John discusses the Cordelia Principle, a rat is a rat, and concludes with a story of Griselda, a neighbourhood chicken who came to visit.

Find John’s books HERE

Become a member of PAWS HERE

Daniel Mills is a professor at the University of Lincoln in the UK. He currently consults at the University Animal Behaviour Clinic. In 2020 he was recognized by Stanford University as part of the top 2% of all scientists globally.

Daniel dives into his research world of problem behaviour, and his studies to understand individual differences in animals that reflect emotions. He remarks that animals are often not using human mechanisms to solve problems, rather they do it their own way and we have to understand that in order to assess animals’ emotions more systematically. 

He tells the story of how he started in the field of animal behaviour and talks about his career as a veterinarian while being involved in different research with dogs and horses. His greatest piece of advice to get there is to ask questions, explore and be curious. Daniel and Sabrina discuss what it means to be scientific or have a scientific attitude. He also shares how information can come from lots of different sources, including Victorian books!

Daniel shares his findings during his Ph.D. with repetitive behaviours in horses and some other interesting studies on the left gaze bias in domestic dogs. For Daniel, the key to understanding animals is observation and careful reflection.

Daniel talks about welfare, wellbeing and behaviour in dogs and ways of making choice and control meaningful for the animals. He shares some of his latest findings in human-animal relationships and interactions during the COVID-19 lockdown phase in the UK and finishes with a childhood story.

Find out more about Daniel and his research HERE

Learn more about the Animal Behaviour Clinic HERE

Become a member of PAWS HERE

Dr Mendl is a professor of animal behaviour and welfare at the Bristol Veterinary School, University of Bristol. His research focuses on cognition, emotion, development, individuality and social behaviour in domestic animals. 

Mike starts by introducing his background and giving some alternative options to start in the research field of animal behaviour and welfare aside from doing a PhD, postdoc, or fellowship. He then dives into the background of how he is working together with his collaborators studying emotions, welfare and cognition in animals. He presents the methods used to understand what animals are experiencing, and cognitive bias as an indicator of animal emotion and welfare.

Mike talks about his multiple research studies with different species of domestic animals, rats, and even bees, and the challenges of knowing whether emotion and affective states are consciously experienced in other species. Mike shares his results of a study of lateralized behaviour as an indicator of affective states in dairy cows, with the animals in a negative state predicted to be more likely to process novel or unexpected information using the right hemisphere of their brain. This leads Sabrina and Mike to discuss the concept of novelty and environmental enrichment, training with enrichment devices, rewards, and how this might also affect the right hemisphere activity in the brain. 

Mike shares his work studying 'trap and release' effects on the small pig-like animal, the peccary, which is considered a pest animal in Brazil. Using a cognitive bias approach, the aim of this work was to understand the welfare implications and potential negative effects caused by trapping and release on the animals. 

Finally, Mikes discusses his work in understanding how animals live in the present, how their memories may work and how they may plan for the future. He shares how knowing more about this “mental time travel” in animals can have a lot of beneficial captive management implications. 

Find out more about studying Animal Welfare and Behaviour at the University of Bristol

Read the The Cambridge Declaration on Consciousness HERE

Become a member of PAWS now HERE

Gerry Creighton did not want to be anywhere else than at the zoo, working with and caring for animals, rising through the ranks to Zoo Operations Manager for animals and grounds in 2009. He worked at the Dublin Zoo, also together with his dad, for over 36 years. 

Gerry shares how he worked as a trainee keeper, before becoming a full-time zookeeper and Team Leader responsible for large apes, carnivores and elephants for nearly ten years before becoming Zoo Operations Manager for animals and grounds in 2009. 

Gerry shares details of the gorilla and mangabey habitat, will giant trees and natural vegetation, allowing the animals to browse as the seasons unfold. About the importance of natural substrates and activities that animals can engage in.

Gerry’s career has spanned several decades of exciting development, during which time Dublin Zoo has transformed from its Victorian beginnings in 1831 into a modern, vital and progressive European centre for conservation, education and animal husbandry.

Today the elephant facility is state of the art, and Gerry mentions that he is happy that is already outdated too, as there is always room for improvement, it is an ever-evolving process. He shares how many of the care efforts have and are tweaked through scientific input, how habitat features are adapted, food distributed, and more, depending on the animals' needs and preferences. 

Gerry talks about a wide variety of topics related to elephant care, how to deal with different social structures, how to move to different management styles, and the importance to acknowledge role models and elephants learning from elephants. 

Today Gerry operates through his own consulting company Global Elephant Care, a frequently invited speaker and holds an advisory role acting as elephant care and welfare consultant for many international zoos within Europe, Asia and North America.

Contact Gerry Creighton at Global Elephant Care [email protected] and on Facebook HERE

Become a member of PAWS now HERE

Ron Kagan is the Chief Executive Officer of the Detroit Zoological Society (DZS) in the USA. 

Ron starts talking about his start in the zoo field and how he ended up in his current position and suggests for people starting out in the field to seek both academic studies and practical experience.

Ron shares with us a little about his first studies on pheromones in animal communication and thermoregulation in mammals.

He discusses the program he helped create at Michigan State University for people who want to go into the profession.  It was the first Bachelor of Science degree offered in Applied Zoo Science anywhere. 

Ron dives into the DZS’s Center for Zoo and Aquarium Animal Welfare and Ethics. Here, the current body of knowledge on animal welfare and ethics is freely accessible on-line for all zoo professionals. The center also engages in non-invasive research, convenes symposiums of experts, holds welfare workshops and recognizes advances in animal welfare and ethics through awards.

Sabrina and Ron discuss the differences between animal care and animal welfare and the importance of “giving” choice and control back to captive animals.

Ron tells us about the responsibility a zoo has to help and rescue animals from bad conditions. He shares one of the dozens of success stories on how they became a sanctuary, rescuing hundreds of exotic animals (like a polar bear from a circus and lions from a junkyard). 

Ron remarks on the important role of zoos, making sure that they are sanctuaries, and that zoo animals can thrive. This is also shared in his contribution to the book ‘Increasing Legal Rights for Zoo Animals: Justice on the Ark’. He tells us his perspective of the management of “surplus” animals, and some of the other challenges of zoo animal welfare.

To finish, Ron looks ahead predicting a positive future for zoos and aquariums in the coming years.

Read his paper on “A Universal Animal Welfare Framework for Zoos” HERE

Learn more about the Center for Zoo and Aquarium Animal Welfare and Ethics HERE

Read more about his contribution to the book “Increasing Legal Rights for Zoo Animals: Justice on the Ark” HERE

Become a member of PAWS HERE

Joanne Thomas is the Animal Care Manager at Wellington Zoo Trust (WZT) in New Zealand. Joanne shares her background, and big passion and love that is animal welfare. 

She started volunteering in a wide variety of places around the world to gain experience, working with a wide variety of species for over 30 years. 

For Joanne, the key is always being open and prepared to learn, and how animals are our teachers too.

Joanne talks about all her experience from agriculture and farming, to sanctuaries and zoos around the world. Despite all the challenging aspects of working in sanctuaries, she highlights that sometimes having a hard job, is a rewarding job.

Joanne shares how she ended up in the position of Animal Care Manager, and how much she loves the WZT values, with their passion and commitment to always ‘Punch above your weight every day. She dives into the philosophy of animal care and welfare at WZT, including looking after everything and everyone in the environment, so animals and people can flourish.

Joanne highlights the importance of strategic and operational plans for animal welfare programs. She explains how they have used the Five Domains model, from day-to-day care to long-term plans and in strategic and operational planning.

She shares different examples of the ‘Happy animals' interpretation activities they have around the zoo for the community and visitors, how to engage them with the animals, and how they share the Five Domains model with the visitors.

Joanne also talks about the conservation projects in collaboration with the Department of Conservation in New Zealand, such as with threatened species including the Wellington green gecko.

To conclude Joanne tells a success story of a tiger and the transformation of his welfare at the WZT. Sabrina and Joanne discuss the importance of the stories of the animals as teachers guiding care, the resilience and flexibility of the animals, and the importance of being prepared to change, learn and never give up on the animals.

Learn more about the conservation projects at Wellington Zoo Trust HERE

Become a member of PAWS HERE

Dr. Monica Battini is a Research Fellow at the Department of Agricultural and
Environmental Sciences in Milan, Italy, where she also received her PhD in animal welfare.

Monica shares experiences about her previous work researching welfare quality and welfare assessment protocols for different farming species, animal emotions, and communication among others. She dives into two European projects: Welfare Quality® (WQ) and Animal Welfare Indicators (AWIN).

In WQ, protocols for cattle, pigs and poultry (broiler and hens) were developed and I collected data for the development of the protocol for dairy cows.  In AWIN, protocols were developed for small ruminants, equids and turkeys and she co-authored the protocol for goats.

Her advice to become an animal welfare scientist is to be curious, strong, and keep to achieving goals during the journey.

Monica talks about the importance of considering good welfare for farm animals, looking at positive indicators and the Five Domains model. She highlights the moral duty we have as humans to raise animals in a good way. Monica explains in depth what animal welfare indicators are, how to classify them, and how to use them for assessment with farm animals.

Sabrina and Monica discuss how the lack of negative welfare conditions does not necessarily mean that animals are in good welfare and have a good quality of life. She talks about a life worth living for animals, the challenges involved, choice and control, and possibilities of mitigating negative effects with positive opportunities.

Monica shares how the research team used the Five Domains model in their research with different species and explains many examples of promising indicators, including how to identify them for positive welfare states. Monica gives some examples of adult and juvenile goats and different indicators.

To conclude, she remarks on the importance of creating a good relationship with the farmers, to collaborate, to learn from their knowledge, work on improvements, and building bridging science into practice.

Find more about Monica HERE

Learn more about the European AWIN project HERE

Become a member of PAWS HERE

Dr. Rebecca Ledger is an animal behaviour and animal welfare scientist from Vancouver. Part of her work focuses on using behavioural assessments to assess animal welfare, and she has worked in the management of shelter dogs. She is regularly retained by humane societies, pet owners, and the Crown and Defence counsel across Canada to provide expert opinion in legal cases involving animal cruelty and animal behaviour.

Rebecca shares with us her rich background of experiences, her different jobs for universities, her consulting company, and the many years as a columnist, bringing animal welfare science to the general public. She enjoys teaching the most and talking to laymen scientific audiences about animal science. Rebecca talks about her studies and research mostly in companion animals, primarily dogs, with some cases revolving around cats.

Rebecca introduces us to her work as an animal expert in court, how she started, and some cases involving animal suffering. She states that suffering can be demonstrated in court animals can suffer even without physical evidence, and she proves that with her work and through the use of the Five Domains model. She shares how she started using the Five Domains model in court, and how she applied it to many different species for assessing suffering in cases of animal cruelty.

Rebecca explains the value and importance of the Five Domains Model and how it allows us to assess animal welfare in a comprehensive way.

Sabrina and Rebecca discuss how she deals with the sentient argument and the negation of anthropomorphic speculation.

Rebecca concludes with a success story of justice, of Oscar, a cat case suffering from breathlessness and the positive outcome for him, and hopefully for many other cats in the future through the precedence it set.

Learn more about Rebecca HERE

Read the full paper of Forensic Use of the Five Domains Model for Assessing Suffering in Cases of Animal Cruelty

Become a member of PAWS HERE

Nicolas de Graaff has worked in the zoo industry for over 20 years and now he is the Accreditation Manager with the Zoo and Aquarium Association in Australia.

In this episode, Nicolas shares how he got started in the zoo field and how he came to the ZAA position, by being always flexible, open-minded, and working with his passion, joy, and commitment.

Nicolas brings to mind two rewarding and achieving histories about primates and recalls how all the experiences are a good way to learn from each other and together improve.

Nicolas introduces us to the implementation of animal welfare and legislation in Australia and New Zealand. He talks about his work facilitating the development and implementation of the ZAA Accreditation Program, which is primarily focused on the promotion of ‘positive’ welfare and based on the Five Domains Model. 

Nicolas presents the ZAA Accreditation program talking about the animal welfare assessments applying the Five Domains Model, details of the assessment, approach, and focus, and how ZAA supports their members through workshops, training, etc.

Sabrina and Nicolas discuss the importance of asking questions, working in collaboration with others, and being supportive.

Nicolas concludes the podcast with two successful and important stories that were possible just asking questions and highlighting that we should not only focus on what the standard of the environment should be but mainly focus on the experience the animal is having.

Learn more about Nicolas Graaff role in ZAA HERE

Learn more about the Animal Welfare work done in ZAA HERE

Become a member of PAWS now HERE