ℹ️ About this episodeThis episode traces Susanne Cook-Greuter's path into adult development — from a fascination with language and semantics to her refinement of Jane Loevinger's stage model. She explains how ego development is measured through sentence completion, and why she now sees development less as a vertical ladder and more as an arc from knowledge to wisdom: first building a separate self, then deconstructing that separation. The conversation doesn't shy away from the shadows — the Western bias of developmental models, the misuse of typologies, "aboutism," and the hubris that can come with later stages. It closes on aging, mortality, and the quiet conclusion that kindness matters more than any stage.
🎙️ Guest – Dr. Susanne Cook-GreuterDr. Susanne Cook-Greuter is a pioneer of adult ego development research. Building on Jane Loevinger's work, she mapped the later stages of adult meaning-making and developed the MAP sentence-completion assessment. She holds a doctorate from Harvard.www.cook-greuter.com | LinkedIn
🔴 Topics
Overview:- From language and semantics to ego development research
- How meaning-making is measured: Loevinger's sentence completion test
- The arc from knowledge to wisdom — building and then deconstructing the self
- Why "vertical" development has become a misnomer
- Shadows of developmental models: Western/Northern-Hemisphere bias and indigenous wisdom
- Pigeonholing people and the trap of color-coded typologies
- "Aboutism": understanding a stage vs. actually embodying it
- The hubris of later stages — and learning to notice it faster
- An AI-based version of the assessment and more democratic access
- Aging, mortality, and where to find joy
- Kindness and compassion over any stage
Main discussion:1. "Maps Are Not Territories" – How to Use (and Misuse) Ego Development Models Susanne Cook-Greuter warns against the most common pitfall: people who can
read about later stages often believe they've already reached them. "Aboutism" – talking about things one hasn't truly internalized – is the blind spot of the integral community. Introspection alone isn't enough; the MAP assessment remains the only valid measurement tool.
2. Higher Stages = Better? Not So Fast. Later developmental stages bring greater tolerance for complexity and more compassion – but also more worry, potential hubris, and a Western cultural bias baked into the models. Susanne is convinced that indigenous traditions have their own "later stages" that simply haven't been researched yet.
3. Cognition Is Just One Line – and Often the Most Overrated Ego development measures behavior, emotion,
and cognition together. But IQ and developmental stage are decoupled: Susanne's sister with Down syndrome was morally influential in her community – a lived counter-argument against developmental hierarchy arrogance.
4. You Can't Force Growth – But Models Can Serve as Levers Nobody can be pulled up by their hair. That said, developmental theories help people see
what is possible at all, and to observe people nearby who are a little further along than themselves.
5. In the End, the Simple Things Matter – Presence, Curiosity, Letting Be Susanne's personal arc from childhood (her sister with Down syndrome as her first teacher), through decades of research, to her current situation following an accident: her conclusion is anything but abstract. The question occupying her now is no longer "letting go" – but
"letting be".
🔗 Links & Resources 📥- Book: "Postautonomous Ego Development: A Study of Its Nature and Measurement" (1999)
- Paper: “Ego Development: A Full-Spectrum Theory Of Vertical Growth And Meaning Making” (2021)
- Vertical Development Academy: https://verticaldevelopment.com/
- AI-assisted MAP Assessment https://www.leadershipmaturity.ai/
👥 Hosts
Dennis Wittrock – freelance trainer and consultant for collaboration and self-organization, certified Holacracy Master Coach, co-founder of the Integral European Conference, and former managing director of the Integral Forum Germany. Author of the book "Understanding Holacracy. Criticism - Research - Practice"
Tobias Klose – Consultant and facilitator of collaboration, conflict resolution, and organizational transformation. He connects the development of inner and relational maturity with resilient, effective structures. With a business background, founder and integral-systemic Agile and Holacracy Coach.
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Islands of Resonance ➡️
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This podcast is bilingual with episodes in German and English. Dieser Podcast ist zweisprachig mit Folgen auf Deutsch und Englisch.
🌍 www.denniswittrock.com and www.tobias-klose.de
