I've Tried Everything

Angela:

Hello, welcome back to I've Tried Everything, a podcast focusing on behavior supports in schools. I'm your host, Angela Isenberg, project coordinator at Region 13. Every week I talk with educators just like you. We cover some tough topics, share stories, and explore what works and what doesn't. Let's go. I am absolutely honored to be joined by my Deputy Executive Director of Academic Services. That is a huge mouthful, Kerry?

Kerry:

Yes, long title.

Angela:

I also want to say happy one year anniversary of being at Region 13. We always tease Kerry because she worked at Region 10. So I think we're all going to start making her pay some money now that she's been here for a year.

Kerry:

Yes. Anytime I say it on accident. Yes.

Angela:

So welcome, Kerry. I'm glad that we've had you for a year. I'm thrilled. You're really the lead person for academics in our region. You put really great stuff out there for our clients and for our academic leads in Districts. So on our team for behavior here at the service center, we talk a lot about that you can't separate academics and behavior. They really go hand in hand. So when we are meeting about a student's academic success, we have to talk about behavior as well. How do you see the two working together collaboratively in order for there to be success for students and staff on campuses?

Kerry:

So what I would say to that is, I agree a hundred percent. Academics and behavior go hand in hand. This is my 26th year in education. So I was here when No Child Left Behind passed, and I saw all of the changes that came with that as far as giving students who have different needs full and complete access to the general curriculum. And I am a huge philosophical believer in that is the way we make sure every kid gets what they need is that full access to the general curriculum.

So the way academics and behavior go hand to hand is we have to build situations, opportunities, training, leadership, support, so that teachers have the skill sets they need in both academics and behavior management. So way back when, when I started teaching in 1997, you went into a classroom and you were trained up really strongly in instructional pedagogy, in your content area and all those things. Your support, your training in the area of how to help manage behavior of students with different needs was nonexistent.

Angela:

This is so true.

Kerry:

It was so true. Right?

Angela:

Same ballgame for me too.

Kerry:

Yes. And so then as we've progressed and things like No Child Left Behind, people love it, people hate it, but it did insist that we make sure every single kid gets access to that general curriculum. So as we've progressed, what I've seen change and then thus the need for academics and behavior to go hand in hand is we have to change the mindset of how we prepare our teachers. It's no longer just instructional pedagogy and academic content, but it is also how do you manage the people in the room.

Teaching is more than just standing up and delivering a message about English literature, how to do an algebraic equation, but it's managing the people in the room. And whether you have 22 first graders or 38 English Four kids, your job is to create an environment where all the students, all the people in that room get access to that great academic content that you can offer. So you've got to have the skill set of managing the people.

And to be quite honest, in our world now, managing the people means understanding behavior management of all kids. Not just the kids who come in with your traditional, they don't have different needs, they're just a run of the mill kid. But you've also got students who are dealing with mental health issues and students with cognitive disabilities and all sorts of things that make their behavior needs different. Our teachers have to be prepared to be able to manage that because the point is to deliver that academic content every single one of the people in that room. So to manage those people.

Angela:

Same ballgame for me for my college curriculum. I'm very excited, my daughter is going to college to be an elementary educator.

Kerry:

Oh, yay.

Angela:

So I'm thrilled to see how much behavior is embedded into her content. And it's really fun for us to have conversations about, "Mom, today, like we talked about social-emotional learning or we talked about restorative practices," and I'm like, "Oh, I'm so excited, I'm thrilled." And then of course she thinks I'm some kind of famous person because she's like, "Mom, I dropped your name today in class." I'm like, "I don't think most people in San Angelo, Texas know who I am."

Kerry:

That's awesome. Well, I'm a field supervisor for one of our interns in our Educator Certification Program this year. It's one way I'm trying to stay connected to what's happening in schools and I'm seeing the same thing. Our ECP program is really preparing these interns to do both, the delivery of the academic content and the management of the behavior. And in fact, when I go out and observe in my intern's classroom, the majority of our conversations are about behavior management. She's got the academic content. It's that behavior management that she's learning.

Angela:

So you have the pulse of curriculum directors across our Region. You do a Curriculum Council C2 once a month. One of the messages that I think you've gotten from some directors out there is that some behavior might be impeding academics. What behavior challenges right now are folks telling you that they're facing in their Districts?

Kerry:

So it's multifaceted. Right now, this teacher shortage is so real. And what I hear more than anything is that Districts are struggling to keep teachers in those behavior classrooms, those very specific settings that are unique. But they're also struggling to keep teachers in the general ed classrooms because, again, teachers who are unequipped to deal with some of the behavior management are struggling. And in extreme cases, the teachers themselves feel like they're in danger. I tend to be one of those people who believe the kid is not dangerous. It's the situation where the person is not trained to deal with the behaviors that makes it dangerous. But that's probably the biggest thing that curriculum directors are facing is just keeping the professionals in the room.

I said it's multifaceted because then once you've got the professionals in the room, we're in a world where Star is very important, where accountability is very important, where catching kids up from the learning loss of COVID is incredibly important. So curriculum directors feel an unbelievable pressure to make sure that a certain number of standards are covered, that a certain number of standards are mastered. They find it difficult to manage the balance of training for teachers. All that heavy academics is where we are all trained as curriculum directors to go, but they have to stop and realize that that behavior management, you can't get to the academics if the behavior's not managed.

So that's something I hear too is how do we balance. We only get five PD days a year. We only have so many hours to give teachers professional development. How do we balance getting all the academics pushed out and also give them the training that they need on behavior, restorative practice, responsive learning, all those things. So that's a struggle too. And so a lot of what I've actually talked to curriculum directors a lot about recently is some unique ways to build a professional development schedule that'll allow you to strike that balance. Because if I go back to what I said earlier, a lot of teaching is training teachers how to manage the people in the room. It's very important. You can't give it up for the academics. It's finding that balance.

Angela:

One of the things that I try to push out there when I'm working with schools and the whole school framework of behavior supports, it is how do you embed this learning into everything that you're doing? Because if you just do a one shot workshop in August when teachers aren't necessarily paying full attention because they're worried about their classroom and getting it set up and first day of school and all those kinds of things, you're missing the ballgame. It's like how do you take all of that greatness and push it all together in a way that's blended?

The other thing that I want people to really think about that's pushing out curriculum and professional development is that we have to differentiate for our professional development. And putting this one-size-fits-all, where we're all in the cafeteria together and we're all getting it at this. So how do you differentiate for your brand-new teachers that don't know versus your veteran, 20-year teachers that have a lot of the key pieces, they just might need to hone in on how to make their craft better. Right?

Kerry:

Yes, exactly.

Angela:

So that teacher shortage is real. And we know that behavior is one of the top reasons why, but also the amount of just overwhelming stuff. If you had some kind of magic wand, I know, and that'd be wonderful if you did, if you had some kind of magic wand that would say, "These are a couple of the things to address the teacher shortage," what would you say? What would you recommend?

Kerry:

I am a big fan of autonomy with coaching. And so I think that in a lot of cases we dictate too much what can and can't happen in those classrooms. We're trying to script too much what can and can't, which doesn't allow room then for the modifying, the accommodating, management of behaviors. Even modifying and accommodating academic need. "I'm on a scope and sequence, I have to get going. I can't stop and wait for this group that didn't pick it up." And I think allowing teachers some autonomy, more autonomy than we are used to giving. See, I think way back in the day when I started teaching, it was the first year of the TEECS, nobody really, they put you in a room, they gave you a textbook, they said, "Go."

Angela:

You shut your door and you just did your thing.

Kerry:

Then we've swung all the way to the other side where it's in some places very scripted and even the differentiation becomes scripted. I've noticed that some with my intern that in some of the guides and documents that she's supposed to be following, she's struggling because even her differentiation is dictated to her, especially with her English language learners. We got to come back to the middle, which is where we train professionals well, we give them the tools they need, and we give them some autonomy to implement those tools based on the population sitting in their room. Because the makeup of every classroom looks different.

And the other thing I would say is I think sometimes we try to do too much in the vein of providing support and resources. Let's give them a million things to choose from to do this one or two things or a million ways to differentiate for this one kind of child. I think we have to pull back some of that and say, "You know what? Here are the important things and these are the things you take care of. And these other frilly things that are out on the side, well..."

For example, my intern, I keep going back to that, but she's really keeping me grounded and real this year because I sit in her classroom and I watch her actually teach real kids. And she has lots of varying abilities and varying backgrounds in that room. And I see her sometimes try to implement some of these things that I'm sure are very District level mandate. "We're going to try this special model." And in fact, I said to her last week, "You know, all you need to do is you need a stack of Post-its. You need a stack of Post-its, you need to put a little mark on each Post-it. That's how you group them." And it's not a fancy program. It's just looking at a situation and figuring out what's the most efficient way to manage it.

Angela:

It's putting your own personal spin in your classroom because that's what makes your classroom yours. And you own it. When it's yours, you own it. I think about a teacher, he taught algebra at a high school and we were talking about building relationships and he said, "Angela, I value that." But he said, "If I'm not on the exact space in the curriculum when they walk in the room, I get knocked on my evaluation." He said, "So how am I supposed to take time to build relationships when I have to spend the little bit of time that I might have had for that relationship to catch up some of the kids that might have missed something because I've got to be on target." And that makes it a really challenging place for educators to be of, "Do I give up academic time to build relationships or do I build relationships because I know that that's going to gain me back academic time in the long run." The cart before the horse or which one came first.

Kerry:

Well, and if you want to take it all the way to the top, which I don't mind doing that in this little podcast, we've got to continue the process we started before COVID of streamlining those standards. We have too many standards, not enough time to teach them. And we've already, as a state, clearly identified which ones are the most essential. So we need to continue that process of streamlining to just get to those essentials. And then that opens up the time for the teachers.

Angela:

Totally agree. You might know this answer, but I've heard this before, that we as a state have more TEECS than anybody else.

Kerry:

Yes, yes, absolutely.

Angela:

So that is true.

Kerry:

It is.

Angela:

So now we know why teachers are dancing their way through.

Kerry:

Yes.

Angela:

So as a former District employee, what are some of your non-negotiable behavior initiatives that you would say hands down need to be in place across a campus or across a district?

Kerry:

It's interesting because 26 years in the business, my answer to this question has probably changed many times over the course of my career as I've seen it from different perspectives. But I think from where I sit now about a year out of that Chief Academic Officer's seat, I think the number one thing is having a continuum for services. A District has got to take the time to really set up that continuum so that there is a place for varying needs. And I'll give a shout out to a special ed director I worked with years and years ago who started teaching me about the continuum, Michelle Martella, amazing lady.

Angela:

Oh, yes. I've heard of her.

Kerry:

You probably know her.

Angela:

Yes.

Kerry:

She began, when I took the assistant superintendent role in the District where she was, I was fresh out of a Curriculum Director's seat and new special ed. I'd been assessment person for years. So I had all of that. I lived through tax in, tax out, all of those things. But Michelle was the one who really helped me clearly see the importance of a system for a District that would provide a variety of places where children have the best opportunity to learn. And she was also one of the ones who started to change my mindset about least restrictive environment to more restrictive environment, that the negativity that's attached sometimes when you move down the continuum really shouldn't be there because this is about what is best for that child. Where are they going to get the biggest bang for their buck?

And so in that District, and then in the District that followed, one of my big goals, priorities as that chief academic person, was to make sure that all of our staff, our teachers, our specialists, everybody felt that there was this continuum of services that we, and that kids could move up and down that continuum as their needs changed, as they grew, as they learned. So to me, that's a non-negotiable. I need to be able to sit down with the principal and say, "Here is how this happens. We start here in the very least restrictive environment. As we determine the kid needs more, we move here and then we can always move back. We might move up." To me, that's huge.

The other thing I'd say is if I go way back to my assistant principal days, PBIS, those positive behavior systems for kids, I was in a district that insisted administrators be immediately trained. I mean, I think that's the law now, but back then it wasn't. That was pre No Child Left Behind. But in our District, we were trained up within those first few weeks of accepting an administrator position. And I used those skills daily in my role as an assistant principal on a campus that had quite a few settings. And to this day, that is probably some of the training, I would say, as an educator, that I still remember lockstep, even used it on my own children when I had them.

Angela:

I always laugh because I did the same thing whenever we had be safe, be respectful, be responsible in my household. And I had Eisenberg books that my kids got to earn. So it was just definitely, I pulled it right into there. I do think sometimes PBIS gets a little bit of a bad rap because of it's like, "Oh, just be positive with them." But it's helping people understand it is that positive piece because that is so important. And brain research says that positive feedback is important for students, but it is about putting systems in place for students to understand how to navigate the classroom, navigate the school. It's a way for teachers and educators to be consistent. Because that's the biggest thing that I get feedback on is, "Well, not everybody does this and I do all this work and the other teachers don't do it." And it's the consistency sometimes that gets bogged down. So that PBIS kind of helps.

And on that continuum, I think we did the same thing from an academic standpoint and behavior where we swung the pendulum and we went from everybody was self-contained way back in the day. Back in my day, it was like in a portable a hundred yards away from the building with the brand new teachers. And then we went fully inclused. And then people are like, "Wait, there needs to be something different." So really looking at that I think would help teachers to understand even if they understood the continuum would be important.

Kerry:

Well, it's that frustration level that exists not only at the teacher level but at the principal level that if you have a system with a really nice continuum built, it relieves the frustration. Because when we went that full inclusion route way over to that side of the pendulum, there were a lot of folks who in that day-to-day living that world felt trapped. "There's nothing else I can do for this kid, or there's nothing else that we can try." And that continuum gives you some breathing room and it gives you some options without it being a moving all the way back to the self-contained portable world.

Angela:

Well, it gives kids the breathing room, right? Because they know they're not being, they know that this is not where that they're most successful and they're struggling. So when we are forcing them into an environment where they know that they're not their best, it makes it really challenging.

Kerry:

And I say too on the PBIS, as adults, we like PBIS, right? When I was an assistant principal, we had a PBCD classroom and they did the visual schedules for their students. Man, I liked having a visual schedule myself. This is not silliness. These are life skills we're giving to these kids. And even in work settings as adults, we like positive reinforcement. We like systems that allow us to show when we do the right thing or do our work the right way, there is a reward at the end. That's not, like you said a minute ago, that's not just being fluffy and silly and all positive. It's the way the world works. And I think that's an important life skill to teach those kids.

Angela:

And PBIS is actually where my journey started for behavior. I was on a campus, Albert Phelps was my coach for PBIS, and I just fell in love with it. I said, "This makes sense. Why are we not telling students what we expect from them and helping to get them there if they're not there?"

Kerry:

Teach them how to get there.

Angela:

Yes. I kind of always go back to if they knew better, they'd do better. And so how do we teach them in order to do that? I can't thank you enough for spending time with me and sharing your knowledge and expertise in this area. So thank you so much, Kerry, for being with me on I've Tried Everything.

Kerry:

You're so welcome. Thank you.

Angela:

Thanks for listening to I've Tried Everything. Join me next week as we continue on our journey for behavior supports in schools. Remember to subscribe and you can always find great resources at Region 13's website. Just search behavior. Talk to you next time.

Angela:

Hello, welcome back to I've Tried Everything, a podcast focusing on behavior supports in schools. I'm your host, Angela Eisenberg, project coordinator at Region 13. Every week I talk with educators just like you. We cover some tough topics, share stories, and explore what works and what doesn't. Let's go.

I am very honored to be joined today by Keith Thompson. He is our director for Leadership and Initiative Supports. Thank you, Keith, for joining me today. I really appreciate it.

Keith:

No, thank you for having me. Angela.

Angela:

I want to talk to you because you're over a lot of different initiatives, and very important initiatives, here at Region 13. You support not only our superintendents, our principals, but also our brand new little interns that are coming into education. So let's put on all those different hats and let's tackle some of those important questions that we have out there.

What do you feel is the biggest concern around behavior and behavior supports right now from the different groups that you support?

Keith:

Yeah, that's a great question. As we check in with our district leaders, our campus leaders, our teachers, they all have different concerns around behaviors right now. Starting with the teacher side of things, behaviors are different every day. Every day that a teacher shows up, they're experiencing new behaviors. Yes, there's some consistency, but from day to day, the teachers don't know what to expect. And for our new teachers right now, we're trying to develop that toolkit that they have to manage the behaviors, but it is a struggle for them right now.

They're seeing behaviors from resistance, from lack of communication, they're seeing behaviors that are aggressive, and so they're seeing a wide range of behaviors right now. And we're trying to work with our teachers to make sure that we have the systems in place to be able to manage those behaviors.

One of the big things we remind our teachers that behavior is communication. And so while you're frustrated with behaviors, there is an underlying message behind it. And so being able to see through the behavior and identify how we can assist the student is a challenge because in the moment we've all been in that position where there's a behavior as a teacher that is extremely frustrating and is preventing you from getting to your instruction. And we're really working with our teachers right now to support that.

From the campus leadership we see a huge need for our principals and assistant principals right now who feel like too much of their time is being spent on behaviors and they're not able to get to the other tasks that they have. And so as the principal, as the instructional leader for that campus, we're hearing, "I'm spending so much time dealing with behaviors on the phone with parents handing out consequences. I don't have time to get into classrooms to focus on the instruction piece."

When we talk to district leaders, they're hearing from the campus leaders about, "Yes, there's a lot of behaviors, campus leadership is requesting support," but districts don't necessarily have, number one, the personnel, or number two, the resources financially to be able to provide that support. And so there's concerns across the board right now.

Angela:

We spent a lot of time after, I want to say after the pandemic, but we're still kind of living in that aftermath of it right now talking about learning loss. But we didn't spend a lot of time talking about behavior loss. And it sounds like that they're kind of reeling in that behavior loss right now when they want to be focusing on that learning loss to make those improvements needed.

We had the opportunity at Region 13 in September to have a panel come all the way from superintendent to a student on a campus, and they talked to us about some of the concerns that they were seeing on their campus. And one of the overwhelming threads that were through each of those panelists was mental wellness and the need for support around mental wellness with staff.

So thinking about those campus leaders out there, how could they best support their staff's mental wellness?

Keith:

Yeah, this is a great question. Thinking back to whenever I was a principal as a campus leader, I was guilty of, "Hey, I put some extra snacks in the lounge. Here's a drink, here's a T-shirt."

Angela:

Here's that gum. You're going the extra mile here.

Keith:

Exactly, "Yeah, I care about you. Let me buy something for you and show you we're here for you to support you." What we're hearing now is, while that's nice, well intentioned, and there's definitely a place for it, there needs to be more. We're asking so much of teachers right now, giving them a bag of popcorn and saying, "You're a rock star," whatever it might be, that's great. But what they need is they need to know that somebody is there to support them and that somebody's there in the trenches with them.

And so for teachers, that mental health piece can be supported by having the opportunity to share concerns, to have that group that they can trust to go to and be able to talk through, "Here's what I'm experiencing," and not necessarily from a point of view of, "I need a solution, but just hear me. Here's my concerns right now. Here's what I'm dealing with. I can't hold this in anymore or I'm going to explode."

And so whether that's somebody on their team that they trust and built a relationship with, whether it's the counselor, whether it's an administrator, it's important for everyone on that campus to have that outlet, somebody that they can go to share how they're feeling, share what their needs are at this time. And once again, not from the point of view of a principal saying, "Okay, well I'm hearing this. Here's how we're going to fix it."

If there's a solution, that's great. But a lot of times it's just being able to vocalize those concerns that does wonders for the teachers to know, "Now somebody knows what I'm going through." We're really stressing with our principals to get out there and get in the trenches and get in the classrooms and provide that support to the teachers. Whether that's, "Hey, I'm going to cover your class for 15 minutes so you can step out, cool off for a little bit, come back." Or whether that is finding ways to take things off of teachers plates.

There's so much we're asking of our teachers and our principals right now, really evaluating what it is we're asking of all of these staff members, what is essential? What can I take off of your plate that's going to give you some of that time back so that you can focus on making sure that you're at your best for the students.

Angela:

We had at our last curriculum council, I guess in September, we had Georgeanne, from Terrell ISD, she's dubbed herself the subbing superintendent on TikTok. So she's out there, she's modeling. She also can empathize with teachers because she's then living what it is that they're dealing with on a daily basis because then she can say, "Wow, I didn't realize kindergartners were at this level," kind of thing.

But as an administrator or district leader, we don't think about the weight that is resting on their shoulders, not only from the accountability that they have, but also that secondary trauma. We hear students' lives and it can be so very overwhelming what they're going through, and we immerse ourselves in that. But then as a leader, you also have your staff's trauma that you're carrying around as well.

As a principal, what are some things that they could do to kind of decompress so that they don't get too wrapped up into that world of secondary trauma?

Keith:

Yeah, that's real right now. I think for a lot of our principals, having that support system, having that group of colleagues that they can turn to, and once again, this isn't a let's talk and you need to give me three ways that I can fix my problems. But being able to vocalize and just share so you're not having to hold everything inside as far as, "This is what I'm experiencing," makes a huge difference.

You're probably going to find out that a lot of principals are going through the same situation right now. And so being able to talk through those concerns, and there's a lot of heaviness on campuses right now. There is trauma out there. We hear every day of just horrific stories of what some of these students are going through. And teachers are compassionate. They carry that weight.

My wife is a teacher. She comes home and she knows the lives of the kids that she works with, and she knows when something's gone wrong. And for her not to be able to carry that weight is a huge ask of her. But for our teachers and for our leaders, being able to share that with somebody, maintaining confidentiality obviously, but just being able to talk through what's happening is very therapeutic. But then also I think what we encourage our teachers and our leaders to do is to really focus on the positives. Because while you may not feel it every day, there are positives that happen every single day.

And as a principal, it was always great to end my day by ending it with a positive phone call. Whether that's calling a teacher that I visited that day saying, "Hey, I really enjoy being in your class today. You did a great job with your small group instruction." Calling that parent that maybe you don't call often enough for the positive reasons. They see your number on the cell phone and maybe they don't answer. But really forcing yourself to end your day with the positive helps you to not necessarily carry that weight home with you after work.

Angela:

I had the utmost honor and privilege to interview two of your interns in the Education Certification Program here at Region 13. William was one of them. He's from Deer Park Middle School. And one thing he didn't anticipate with being a teacher, he said, "I didn't realize how invested I was going to be in my kids' lives." And so we live it, we're right there, and we want to help them in every single way possible. And definitely finding the positives and finding what you can do.

The other thing with behavior is that a lot of times we want behavior to be immediately eliminated. We try something and it's this beautiful elimination of behavior, but that doesn't really happen.

I feel like that maybe one thing that administrators could do is help teachers focus on progress. Like, "Okay, let's stop. Let's think about where we were in August where that kindergartner was throwing a fit and screaming and crying for three hours, and now they're still screaming and crying, but we can get them in the classroom in 30 minutes."

So we went from three hours to 30 minutes. So we are doing the right thing. It's just taking some time. I kind of make it sucks the life out of you, behavior does, a little bit. Did you ever have those opportunities to look at progress with behavior?

Keith:

There's always opportunities to focus on the progress. Having the growth mindset allows you to see the progress because too often, teachers, administrators have so many other variables that they're not able to see the progress. And it's viewed as a, "Well, here we go again. It's happening again." And we're not able to see last time, like you said, "It took three hours. This time it took 30 minutes."

While that is understandable, from the teacher side of things, it is important because even as teachers, our progress is important. While we deliver instruction at the beginning of the year, it may not be great. And I think we can all admit that. I'm a former teacher. I had instruction where I know that it wasn't great early in the day, but by the end of the day, instruction got better. And that's the progress, and that's the way we need to view behavior as well. But I'm also very aware that teachers aren't always able to see that given everything else that's on their plates right now.

And so I think that's where a good leader steps in and at the right time, maybe not in the middle of the behavior, but at the end of the day after things have cooled off a little bit, go back, reassure that teacher, "Hey, I know this is tough, but look what we've done in the past couple weeks. We've been able to take a behavior that was escalated for several hours and were able to redirect that behavior now in a fraction of the time."

Angela:

When I interviewed William and Brittany from your Education Certification Program, they were glowing positives around the program here at Region 13 and the support they have from Pamela Pate, which is their leader for their group. How are you guys preparing interns for the behavior challenges that they're facing right now?

Keith:

Yeah. We used to approach behavior from a standalone module, pre pandemic. We could teach one class on, "Here's how to manage your classroom." The approach we have now is it's spiraled throughout the curriculum with our cohorts that we have specifically talking about our secondary cohort. We typically start with them in January and they do a field observation in March. And so we want to work with them to cover some behavior management prior to going into that field observation so they can kind of see the subtle moves that teachers are doing and relate that to classroom management.

But then we also spend a lot of time covering classroom management, develop classroom management plans, talk about positive behavior supports. In the summer, prior to them starting their job in August, September. And then of course, school starts. Everything goes crazy. And we have to remind our new teachers, "You have a plan for this. Yes, there's a 100 other things you have to do, but until you're able to manage behaviors and get to the kids' hearts, you're not going to be able to get to their minds."

And so really focusing them on behavior has to be managed first in order for us to get to the instructional needs.

Angela:

You got to walk before you run?

Keith:

That's exactly it.

Angela:

And spend that time Shocktober, we are in the middle of it. The highest referral time in the fall semester is Indigenous Day to Thanksgiving. So we are smack dab right there. And people always say Shocktober, but it's really October, November esque right there. Are you guys coming back around even now with behavior in those programs?

Keith:

It comes up in all of our classes. And so we always take a few minutes to check in with our students field support when they're here for classes online. And we're reminding them of our three enduring understandings, when it comes to behavior, number one, behavior is communication. We may not like what we're seeing out of the behavior. A kid walks into your class, slams his book down, says, "I hate math class." There's a good chance maybe it has nothing to do with math class. There's something else that he's trying to communicate.

We also remind them that the teacher is the decisive element when it comes to behavior. How we react can either escalate or deescalate the behavior. And then also we reinforce with them that behavior is now a content area. We have to teach you how to manage that behavior. Even if you're teaching secondary, it doesn't mean that you can just assume that kids know how to behave in your class. You have to teach what it is you're expecting. And so we are constantly revisiting behavior.

Angela:

I love that you said that behavior is a content area. It's one of the things that I've added into my trainings whenever I'm on campus, that you weren't hired to teach just second grade or Algebra II or physics. You were hired to teach physics and behavior and so forth, so on.

It's our job in education to teach behavior. We can get into a philosophical conversation around isn't that the parent's job? But one of the things I will ask teachers is, have you ever dealt with an adult that did not have social skills? There's enough Karen videos out there that show that there are some adults that don't have social skills.

So we have adults that are modeling inappropriate social skills to maybe their neighbor, their own children, family members. We also have parents that are working two and three jobs and they want to be more present and they'd like to be able to be more hands on, but unfortunately that are not able to do that.

And then we have kids that don't have parents, that are in our foster care system. We want to think our foster care system is great, but we do see the long term effects that foster care has. I think the legislative session, I think it was this last session, said that you had to look at a child's situation before you look at the consequence kind of thing, whether it's foster care or homelessness. But if you look at the long term effect of foster care, right now, I think we're sitting at 67% of our inmates on death row have been in the foster care system at some point in time.

Keith:

Wow.

Angela:

It's staggering to kind of think around that. So it is, it's our job to teach behavior, but they are challenging. So I want you to tell me some of the most challenging behaviors that you've heard from your groups that you work with. What are they coming to tell you, "Oh my God, Keith, they did this today?"

Keith:

Yeah, we could spend hours on this topic, for sure. I'm going to break it down by kind of age group. And so what we're seeing a lot of in our primary grades is the kids who still think that behavior is a game. And so they more than likely know the expectation, but they don't want to follow the expectation.

As the teacher come close, they want to run away and they want to laugh because they like the attention. And that's when the teachers are struggling with, "Okay, do I hold the expectation? Do I ignore the behavior? How do I handle this?" And so that's definitely a frustration we're hearing from a lot of our primary teachers.

In the middle grades, we're hearing a lot of resistance and lack of communication. You have the kids that you go through the expectations. They're in a group setting, whether they're independent group, small group, whatever it might be, they have the assignment in front of them and they will not respond to anything.

And so these kids will shut down and they know the task. You know they're plenty smart enough to do the work, but they're not going to pick up the pencil. They're not going to take the hood off their head. They're going to put their head down on the desk and they won't talk to you. They won't complete anything. But then whenever the bell rings, they get up and go. And so that's a huge frustration for our middle grades right now.

And we're hearing some stories from our secondary settings about just straight up attitude and disrespect. And, "You know what? I'm not going to do it. You give me this assignment. I'll just tell you no, I'm not going to do it. Or I might rip it up, throw it in the trash can." That's extremely difficult to deal with.

Angela:

We worked really hard after the quarantine part of the pandemic to get students back because we lost students that just opted not to engage on online learning or didn't have the availability or maybe the level of responsibility to do their own learning online.

Now we've gotten them, they're back on our campus, and they're not engaged. They don't want to be there, but they feel like they have to be there from an attendance standpoint. And so that is a challenge. Albert Phelps and I, he's my director, we did, and I tried everything, and we talked about the difference between motivation and inspiration and where motivation is that carrot and stick kind of thing, that we're going to dangle some kind of PBIS reward in front of you, "Oh, here's a token." Kids are not excited about that stuff anymore. And I even find that in the younger grades. They're like, "What? This is it?"

And moving more into how do we inspire students to want to be engaged and look at their lives in a little bit different way than what they're seeing right now. If you thought about inspiring, let's just go adults because that's who we primarily work with, how do you feel like you inspire adults?

Keith:

We're in a unique situation where we have an alternative certification program, and the teachers coming to us in our program are making that choice to leave their current profession and join the education profession, which is amazing. Every time we meet with these new teachers, we hear that they want to make a difference. They've been doing a job where there's no gratification, they don't feel like they're making a difference.

So inspiring adults, they want to come in and be that person who has a tremendous impact on a child's life. And we're getting that, despite all the bad news that's out there, there is so much good that's happening when we talk with our teachers, "Tell us what's going wrong right now," we always piggyback that with, "Now tell us what's going well, what are you enjoying?"

And that's so important because they are making a difference, the teachers that are out there right now are working so hard for our kids and for our families, and there's tremendous success out there.

Angela:

So if you were to be transplanted back onto the campus today and somebody said, "Keith, you're going to be a principal again of an elementary school." What behavior, supports, and initiatives would you make sure were in place for the success of your students and your staff?

Keith:

When you get the opportunity to leave the classroom and you're an administration, you look back and say, "Oh man, I wish I had known this when I was a teacher." Kind of the same thing now. And so knowing what I know now, I know I didn't do things the best that I could have as an administrator. And so the systems that I'd want to have is just making sure that we do have some sort of campus wide system that is consistently being executed across the campus, whether they're in the cafeteria, whether they're in the library, a first grade class, a fifth grade class, expectations are the same. And knowing what the adult expectations are too, we were really good about stating what the expectations for the kids are, I need to be more explicit about what I expect from my adults in the building as well.

On top of that, seeing how kids are interacting with each other these days, there's got to be ways to build those relationships between students and have them understand that their actions are having tremendous impact on their peers. Because I do feel like that's a piece that's missing today.

Angela:

If I were to go back in the classroom today, hands down, restorative would be what I would put into place. And I think it really addresses what you just said restorative and doing those proactive circles in the classroom are opportunities for students to build community, hear from one another, and it helps them to see people in a different way, see their other colleagues in the classroom in a different way.

And it also, from a discipline side of that restorative lens, it helps students to understand the impact of their behavior and how that behavior's impacted somebody else and what I have to do to make it right. What harm did I cause, and then how do I make that right?

And it shifts the ownership of the child's behavior from the adults managing the behavior to the students managing the behavior, and at the end of the day, isn't that what we want?

Keith:

Self-regulation. That'd be great.

Angela:

Well, I can't thank you enough for joining me. I am just honored to have gotten an opportunity to visit with you, and I really value all the work that you're doing for Region 13 superintendents to principals, to brand new interns in our area. So thank you so much.

Keith:

Well, thank you so much.

Angela:

Thanks for listening to, I've Tried Everything. Join me next week as we continue on our journey for behavior supports in schools. Remember to subscribe and you can always find great resources at Region 13's website. Just search behavior. Talk to you next time.

Angela:

Welcome back to "I've Tried Everything," a podcast focusing on behavior supports in schools. I'm your host, Angela Isenberg, Project Coordinator at Region 13. Every week I talk with educators just like you. We cover some tough topics, share stories, and explore what works and what doesn't. Let's go. I'm very excited to be joined today by Whitney Brown. She is over special programs in Smithville ISD. Whitney and I have had a longstanding relationship. We used to be colleagues together, an eon ago, a very long time ago. We worked together on a ninth grade campus, Bastrop ISD. And I feel very lucky that we have her on our podcast. She has been a high school teacher, an elementary, middle school teacher, special ed, gen ed, administrator, testing. She's been at Central Office. What else have you done in the world of education?

Whitney:

I was actually also a para for a little bit when I first got it started in content mastery and then in PE. Me, a PE para. That's kind of unreal right there.

Angela:

Yeah, she can't catch anything. It's really funny.

Whitney:

It's a family rule.

Angela:

Knowing that you've been in education for a while, and you've held a lot of different positions in a lot of different areas, how have you seen behavior change from 20 years ago to behaviors now that we're seeing on some of the campuses?

Whitney:

My philosophy is kids are kids. Kids are the same now as they were previously and they react to that environment around them that has changed. So a lot of the behaviors that we see change are sometimes just due to environment. Kids respond to us the same way they would have if we have good structures in place and good procedures in place. I don't feel like that has changed so much. I think it's how they're interacting with the world that has led to some of these behaviors that we are seeing more of. But I do feel like a lot of those are stemming from social, emotional aspects, to trauma, or even secondary trauma. I feel like we see a lot of kids are like, "I know this happened to my friend," and they have behaviors then that stem perhaps from what I think of as secondary trauma with kiddos.

I do see more incidences of some aggressive behaviors, whereas in the past if a student had started to become aggressive, they were just taken away. We didn't have to deal with following through with that and helping the kid come up with a plan or recover from that. Whereas now I feel like we are so much more focused on that on campuses and as a society in general as that's really is an important aspect of how we're helping kids grow. And because that is in place, we do see more of those behaviors on campuses.

Angela:

I think it's where that knee-jerk reaction in the past was just, send them to a discipline alternative campus, or OSS, out of school suspension kind of thing. Where now we're looking at, what was the root cause of the situation, let's investigate all of that. Then we also have lots of protections that are out there. If you look at Chapter 37 in the State of Texas, there's a lot of different things as an administrator that you have to look at differently now than we did 20 years ago. In education, for example, you have to look at the students' lives and their experiences, and have some of those experiences impacted how they're behaving on campus, which I think a lot of people aren't aware of what all is in Chapter 37 that exists out there.

Whitney:

Absolutely. Unless you've had to go through that training. And why would they know? Why would teachers know they're not having to sit in Chapter 37? Their first job is instruction. And there's not necessarily a reason for them to know all the nuts and bolts of it, but it does help for them to be aware of certain things. And sometimes you can clarify those, if a kid comes to you as an administrator, and you have to exact a consequence in a certain way, a teacher doesn't understand, and you can say, "Well this is why this has to be this way." And most teachers are reasonable and they'll understand that. A lot of the things we do are based on empathy and just empathy for this kid. Like I can understand you have this trauma, and this is why, and let's help you get through that. So I think we've put some things in place and changes in legislation that are almost like a forced empathy. We want you to be aware of this. So helping teachers be able to see that as to the why, instead of being so focused on the punitive side of things has been a beneficial change that I've seen in my 23 years.

Angela:

How is Smithville right now with your staff? Are y'all still looking for some teachers or paraprofessional though? So anybody listening, Smithville might be hiring.

Whitney:

We do. I am short two certified SPED teachers at my elementary. And I will say our kids in Smithfield are great. I've worked in a big district, I've worked in a small district, and guys, we still talk about, "Oh they're not following the dress code." And my philosophy is if you're worried about the dress code then you really don't have big problems. But I do have at least three SPED positions currently open in addition to some other gen ed positions. But yeah, I get to focus on special programs. Please come out. And we give stipends. We're giving a retention bonus in January. Help you pay off your credit card bills from Christmas. Then another one in June. We are trying to stay competitive with pay because we know we're competing more with big schools more so than little schools our size.

Angela:

Thinking about the teacher shortage that is existing. Paras, substitutes, everything in between. What is at least a couple of things that you feel like could be done to address the teacher short? If somebody asks you, and you were on the Texas Task Force for addressing the shortage, what would you add to their plate to think about?

Whitney:

I feel like at an advantage, because I do have a close friend who is on that Task Force, and so I kind of plugged things in his ears. But number one, it is what can we take off their plates? If your campus is doing some data collection, or a grading process, or if there is something happening on your campus that what I consider fluff, or not completely necessary, we've really got to prioritize what we're doing with our time, and ensuring that the time teachers do have is useful. Then the other one is, what can I do to give teachers back time? Our elementaries have a pretty robust PLC structure in place, so they are getting some time... Let's be honest guys, 45 minutes, five times a week is not enough of a conference period.

So those are things I'm always trying to advocate for in this kind of newish role I'm in at Central Office. It's very different vibe for me 'cause I'm used to being in the trenches. But trying to continue to advocate, or even looking through and helping campuses process through, what is the main priority? We want teachers to do this new thing because it's more efficient, but we're going to get rid of these other two things we were doing. I think we just have to be more efficient in the way we're getting teachers to do the things that we have to do if it's to meet compliance, or a new legislative requirement, or even how we process through data to help making sure kids are making progress. That we're doing things efficiently for teachers.

Angela:

We were having a conversation earlier today about, we add to the plate, but we very rarely take off the plate. And we don't reevaluate, how do things fit together. A lot of times our teachers don't feel like they have permission to take things off their plate. They've been in a training two or three years ago on something, and nobody told them that they don't have to keep doing whatever it is that they got training in. I think for behavior, I've seen campuses do conscious discipline, restorative discipline, Harry Wong's "First Days of School," Fred Jones' "Tools for Teaching." But if you never say, "Hey guys, this is the direction we're headed, you can let go of some of those practices that we were saying you had to have in place before," it makes it really challenging for teachers to navigate and know, this is what I'm supposed to do. Especially for our veteran teachers. For brand new teachers, sometimes they don't know what to put on the plate.

Whitney:

Sometimes they don't even know where the plate is, bless their hearts. It's trying to support them, and again, it all goes back to what are you prioritizing? I think so many times, because accountability is still hanging over our heads, and it's such a driving force in what we do, even though I do like a lot of the things that are happening with the redesign because I feel like it will truly more mirror what we do in the classroom on a daily basis. But we've got to really look hard at how we are monitoring progress. I think that's one of our greatest areas for efficiency. We don't need necessarily multiple, multiple things. We can condense things into something simple. And not only that, let our programs work for us. Giving teachers the access that they need. One of the best things we did when I was an admin on a campus was we made sure all teachers had complete access to what they needed. They didn't have to wait for me to run the report to get it to them. I mean, because essentially it's their data, not mine. And what we worked hard to do was to teach them how to look at that data.

I'm very much not an enabler personality. I'm like, "You're an adult. You're skilled. I can teach you how to do this, and then you can do it for yourself. And then you can be more independent. And be able to do those on your own. Because I can't hold your hand through this forever." Especially when you're in a small district and you don't have a whole team of people to support that. It couldn't just be me and the principal doing it all. We worked hard to try to build that capacity within our teachers. We had teachers who were able to, at the end of it, I felt like they could go through and write their own star test. It was up to that rigor because we had gone through and taught them, and vetted so many things that they had written that they had that capacity to do it. I think eliminating the fluff, and really having efficient systems, not bogging down and all the new cool things, the ways you can do things, keep it simple. Building capacity with your teachers so that they're independent. That has been the greatest areas of growth I have seen for the teachers that I've worked with.

Angela:

That's awesome. So if you had to go back in the classroom today... If somebody said, "Whitney, you're going to teach again."

Whitney:

Seventh grade language arts. That's where I go. 'Cause they're so funny.

Angela:

So seventh grade language arts. You're there. What behavior aspects, or systems, or processes would you make sure that were in place in that seventh grade English classroom?

Whitney:

Number one, I'm going to make sure I have certain processes in place. They're going to know what they're supposed to be doing at all the time. They're going to know how to ask for help. Those are the two biggest ones. And they're going to know that I'm there to support them, but that I also mean business. People, especially when you get to secondary, having that benefit of doing everything basically from Pre-K through high school. I've seen it all. Elementary teachers are the masters of the process and it was phenomenal to me how a teacher could get 22 5-year-olds to get lined up. Everybody's doing this all at the same time. I'm like, "Oh that is amazing to me." So I think I would definitely go back and take a lot of those things I learned in a kindergarten classroom, by watching those teachers, and implement that in my seventh grade classroom because it works. Then you can really focus on the instructional piece. But kids need to know what the expectations are. I'd be very clear. I'd probably cut back on the sarcasm a little bit, even though I'm really, "Get at it." But I think I would make sure I had those structures in place that would have made my life so much easier when I was teaching junior high if I'd had those things in place.

Angela:

Let's take you back and say, "You're a principal." You're a principal on a campus, and what behavior initiatives, or one initiative, would be key for you to make sure was there?

Whitney:

There's so many, right? We have this whole catalog... Because guys, what we need to do in schools, it's not a secret. Everything's out there. It's all been tried before. You don't need anything new. Number one, making sure there's an expectation for teachers to build relationships with their students. It is critical. I know I will follow board teachers on Facebook and some of these others, and you see some of those negative memes about, like, "Don't tell me that building relationships is going to fix it." No, it's not necessarily the fix, but what it is when things go sideways, you've got that relationship to fall back on, and you can recover that relationship with that kid so that kid can process through and continue to learn to make progress. Because that's what our job is. Is no matter what, is that this kid is learning and making progress, and what do we have to do to get that there. So that would be a big focus. But then again, building capacity with teachers to be able to run their classrooms. I think I would be in classrooms more.

Angela:

I want you to think about the thing that you love the most about being around kids on a campus. What is the thing that just makes you thrive, being around kids?

Whitney:

Kids are hilarious. I think they're just funny. I get inspired by them when I'm around them. They just make me happy to be around them. And like I said, when I say to go back and teach seventh grade language arts, people are like, "Oh my gosh, you're insane." I'm like, "I didn't say I wanted to be their administrator." 'Cause I don't want to be the administrator for them. But I love junior high kids. They're so silly and funny and they don't even know what's what in the world. I approach every day when I was in the classroom of, "What entertainment value can I get out of this day for me personally?" In addition, you have the teaching and the learning going on. But I didn't get too bogged down. When they would have their big moments with me, or whatever, take it personally. It's just part of the package with them. And I just... They're funny. I think kids are funny.

Angela:

I'm thinking about a situation when Whitney and I were teaching. We had an assistant principal. His name was Mr. Elliot. Hands down.

Whitney:

I miss him.

Angela:

Mentor beyond mentor. I learned so much from him. I had a kid in my classroom that fell asleep and...

Whitney:

His name was James.

Angela:

He would not get up. We tried, we tried everything. We tried doing a little shake. We tried making a noise by him. He was completely asleep. The bell rang, he's still asleep. Mr. Elliot comes down the hallway and I'm like, "Mr. Elliot, I don't know what to do. We tried to wake him up and he will not wake up." So Mr. Elliot's like, "I got this." So he was in Ms. Brown's classroom after mine. So he goes down to Ms. Brown's classroom and he brings all of Miss Brown's kids into my room.

Whitney:

All of the kids to the opposite side of the campus.

Angela:

Walks them down there and he goes, "Okay, Ms. Brown, start teaching. Just do your thing." So poor James wakes up at some point...

Whitney:

Mr. Elliot dropped a book [inaudible 00:14:33] beside him so to wake him up. All the kids were in on it.

Angela:

Poor James. But I don't think he fell asleep again. But it was very, it was very cute. But I think sometimes it's the fun things, it's the camaraderie too that when you have a really cool group of teachers together, and you are a network of staff, from administrators down to teachers, and y'all are working collaboratively for the best for your students, that to me is what excites me about being on campuses and around. And of course, again, I think kids are funny too. Here's your last question. If you could sum up your first couple of months of 2022, 2023, what song would best sum up how you're feeling right now? It could be a feeling, it can be like a, "Oh my gosh..."

Whitney:

That's hard. I listen to all different kinds of music.

Angela:

I kind of am in the realm of, "Rise Up." I can rise up and do it again. Or maybe a little bit of, "I Will Survive." It's going to be okay, I will survive this. So those will be my songs of 2022, 2023.

Whitney:

I'm totes feeling the "I Will Survive." Sometimes I feel like we're a little bit in "Another One Bites the Dust" with teachers that keep resigning. Like, "Oh Lord." There's that too. Then maybe a little "Truth Hurts" just because sometimes this is the reality of where we're at right now in education, and it's a little scary to me when I look at what things are going to look like in the next few years if we don't have some major course correction. Especially at the legislative level. Because there's all these things that we can do at the campus level to help and support, but if we don't have some important changes and support coming from our state, then I'm a little wary of what that looks like for us as public educators.

Angela:

It'll be interesting to see what that Task Force ends up presenting to that legislative session whenever they're back in session. Thank you Whitney. I am so glad that you're with me. It's always great to laugh with you and get time with you. So thank you for being a part of my podcast.

Whitney:

You're welcome. Thanks for bullying me in to do it.

Angela:

Anytime. Thanks for listening to, "I've Tried Everything." Join me next week as we continue on our journey for behavior supports in schools. Remember to subscribe, and you can always find great resources at Region 13's website. Just search behavior. Talk to you next time.

Angela:

Hello, welcome back to I've Tried Everything, a podcast focusing on behavior supports in schools. I'm your host, Angela Isenberg, project coordinator at Region 13. Every week I talk with educators just like you. We cover some tough topics, share stories, and explore what works and what doesn't. Let's go.

I am very excited today to be joined by my boss, Albert Phelps, here at Region 13. Albert, you and I have had a working relationship for well over 20 years. You started with me back as an Emilio gen ed teacher on a high school campus doing positive behavior interventions and supports. How have you seen behavior from when you first started working with me 20 years ago to now? How have you seen behavior change?

Albert:

I think one of the things that continues to evolve and continues to be a bit of a navigational challenge for staff is the fact that we are better consumers of what behavior support looks like than we've ever been in the past. So in the past, if someone had a behavior challenge, we would identify them, we would put them in a specialized program, we would give them support, and that would be the end of it. They either made progress or they didn't make progress. Now we have multiple options out there, and if something doesn't work, we have better educated parents, better educated teachers, and the levels of intervention are dramatically larger and the opportunities are dramatically larger for the supports that we can provide to kids.

Angela:

So thinking about students in that 20 years that I've known you, how have you seen behavior change, especially after the pandemic?

Albert:

I don't necessarily see that behavior has changed as much as our response to behavior has changed. We have spent a lot of time over the last year and a half talking about learning gaps and learning gaps specifically as it relates to academic learning. What we fail to address sometimes is that there's also been social behavioral gaps that were developed during that time. So opportunities for kids to learn social skills, opportunities for kids to learn appropriate ways to have school behavior. So last year I spent most of my time in second grade classrooms, and as a result of that, here's what I learned. I learned that a lot of our second graders were acting like kindergarten students, not because they had developmental challenges that caused them to act like kindergarten students, but because the last time they were in school, they were in pre-K or kindergarten. So they had not learned how to be a second grade student.

Our response typically is this kid's not acting like a second grade student, therefore they must be a behavior challenge as opposed to taking a step back and saying, I need to remember that they haven't learned those skills yet. So just like if there's a reading gap, we need to reteach reading. If there's a behavioral gap, we need to teach the skills they need to have in order to better become the type of student we expect to see in second grade.

Angela:

So thinking about that skill gap, there's definitely a place in education for positive behavior, interventions and supports, restorative practices, leadership and character development. One of the processes that we've embraced at Region 13 over the last maybe a year and a half, is Leader in Me. So thinking about Leader in Me, why are you so jazzed about this process?

Albert:

Leader in Me is a program that is based on FranklinCovey's, Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. When we think about those seven habits, being proactive, beginning with the end in mind, putting first things first, thinking win-win, seek first to understand then be understood, to synergize, and to sharpen our saw, when we think about those skills, those skills really for me are the last best hope we have for students. But also it really is re-energizing and it's an opportunity for adults to have renewal. I think we have all struggled over the last three years thinking about how do we navigate the new norm. How do we deal with the fact that we did have a period of time where we were not in schools, but the expectation was that learning was still going to occur. We also had a period of time where we've had extensive amounts of mental health challenges as well as increased anxiety.

We have lots of people that have dealt with loss over the last three years, and as a result of that, we need an opportunity to give people skills to inspire hope, and more importantly, we need to make sure that we are allowing our students to become their best possible selves. For me, the Leader in Me program is about hope, and I think sometimes we move away from the opportunity to talk about hope and look at what can we do to have students become inspired to be their best possible selves at the end of the day.

Angela:

We've had lots of conversations, you and I, about you have to start with staff behavior before you move to student behavior. Is Leader in Me starting with staff and addressing staff behavior first and then moving into that student level. Is that kind of the process for Leader in Me?

Albert:

Absolutely. The process for Leader in Me is we begin with adults, if we are not switching and working on changing their paradigms, it's really hard for us to see students in a different light. One of the five basic paradigms that I really land on with Leader In Me is moving away from that, some kids are gifted to everybody has genius. And if I think about that and I had that in the front and center of my mind, sometimes finding the genius in somebody takes a little bit longer and it's a little bit deeper dive, but everybody has potential, everybody has genius. It just may not look like the genius that we expect somebody to have sitting in a row in a school doing what we ask them to do, being on task, doing all the things that typical students look like.

Angela:

So it's out of the box thinking around really how do we meet students where they're at to get them maybe where we want them to be?

Albert:

Exactly.

Angela:

So I had the great opportunity last week to sit in a training with you on moving away from this idea of motivating the unmotivated from a motivation issue to an inspirational issue. Talk to me about how that we need to embrace this concept to help motivate students differently.

Albert:

Well, I believe what you're talking about is one of my new favorite leadership books that I've read and it's, Trust & Inspire, by Stephen M.R. Covey. And in the, Trust & Inspire concept, one of the things that he talks about is that motivation really is based on a carrot and stick principle. If we think about motivation, if you do this, you get something from me for doing this, or if you continue to do this and I don't like it, then there's going to be some kind of consequence that hopefully will change your behavior. Motivation is all about us doing something to somebody else, moving them from point A to point B. When we look at inspiration, it's about tapping into what internally is intrinsically there for us and how to unleash that full potential and allow people to be their best possible selves based on what they are bringing to the table, not what we think they should bring to the table.

Angela:

So it's about really student empowerment, right? It's empowering them to drive their own education and their own process through their own inspiration.

Albert:

It's about having belief and it's about believing in being able to do the right thing if they are inspired to do it.

Angela:

But that really has to have that element of trust in place I think in both ways. The student has to be able to trust educators and the educators have to be able to trust students for that to actually play out, right?

Albert:

Absolutely. The basic premise of the book is that we have to move from a command and control way of leading to a trust and inspire way of leading. And if you think about command and control, it's all about, I put parameters in place, I tell you what you need to do, and then I monitor it to make sure that it's done, as opposed to believing that people are going to do the right thing. And our job is to make sure that we remove the barriers, inspire them to want to do the right thing at the end of the day. It's a mindset change. It's a change in our paradigm.

Angela:

It kind of takes me to the social discipline window for restorative practices where you look at the control and belief and nurturing that needs to be in place. Support, if you're high in support and you're high in control, then you are in that, with, category. You're not doing things for students, you're not doing things to students, you're doing things with students. So it sounds like we need to be in that, with Rome, so that we are working with students for their own success through inspiration and trust.

Albert:

Absolutely. At the end of the day, I think we need to stop telling people what to do, and we need to start doing things with people.

Angela:

Wouldn't that also be the same with staff?

Albert:

Absolutely.

Angela:

Because, of course, I'm a TikToker, so Albert knows all about my guilty obsession with TikTok and definitely teacher TikTok. But I really enjoy seeing some of, and hearing some of the teachers talk about the things that they're being asked to do or told to do instead of engaging them in that process. So huge teacher TikTok. We were a fan girl the other day with the subbing superintendent that we had at our curriculum council. So Albert, if you had to pick your top three strategies for teachers, educators, out of school time staff dealing with behavior, what would be your top three strategies that you would recommend for teachers or staff to have in their tool belts?

Albert:

First and foremost, I think we need to have clear expectations, procedures, and routines, and we need to do it in a way that it becomes a habit. So I think instructional habits are incredibly valuable. Habits for me are the number one source of what classroom management should be driven off of. Think about how important habits are to you in your day to day life. How many times have you ever got in your car Angela and driven to the service center and gotten here and not realized how you got here?

Angela:

Yes, and then days that I wasn't supposed to be coming to the service center, but my mind automatically, I just get in the car and I start driving and I'm like halfway here and I'm like, I'm not going to the service center today, I'm going somewhere else.

Albert:

That's a habit. It's like most of us in the morning when we get up, we get dressed the exact same way. We use the same process. We follow the same routine, and if something interrupts that routine, it messes up our morning. If you think about the power of habit, try sleeping on the opposite side of the bed tonight. You will have the worst night's sleep of your entire life, even though it's the exact same bed, but you will feel uncomfortable, you will feel like something's wrong. You will toss and turn because you're not following your habits. So one, create really powerful instructional habits, create really powerful instructional procedural expectations. The second is clear as kind, going back to Brene Brown, making sure that I'm giving clear feedback to kids about what they're doing, what they're not doing, and making sure that when they are doing what they're doing, I'm paying attention to it.

So again, making sure that I am keeping, first and foremost, the concept of feedback because it's not the severity of consequence that changes the behavior, it's the certainty that a consequence happens every time the behavior occurs. And feedback in itself is a consequence. If every time you do something that I don't want you to do, and I'd say, Angela, that's not okay. That's feedback, that's a consequence. And sometimes it's as simple as that, that it changes behavior, but it's the consistency of me giving feedback that's going to do that. It's not the, I let it slide, I let it slide, I let it slide, and then the fifth time you do it, I have an emotional reaction and then suddenly the sky is falling. So really making sure that I'm spending time focusing on that level of feedback. The last, and I think the third most important thing is really not taking it serious. You have to keep a sense of humor. Kids are incredibly funny and they will do some of the most entertaining and inappropriate things. Let's be honest.

They're going to do some inappropriate things, but the minute that we become angry, we have an emotional response, we become frustrated, it's no longer helpful for the student and it's no longer helpful for us. So I really always go into, even with my most toughest kids that I work with, always go into it with the open mind and realize that the end of the day they're just kids. And I have to remember they're just kids doing the best they can with the skills that they have.

Angela:

Yeah, I kind of have this idea that if you don't laugh at least once a day, then maybe education isn't for you because kids are so funny, they crack me up. The things that they say, some of the things that they do, I find myself laughing all the time and probably laughing inappropriately because I'm encouraging that misbehavior to happen. But they are definitely funny.

When you talk about the habit before with one of your first strategies for teachers, one of the things that I see teachers in I've Tried Everything, and that's kind of the reason why that we named this the, I've Tried Everything podcast, is that teachers will try something for a day and then they give it up and not give something enough time to form a habit with that intervention, that strategy to see over time is that making a difference? And they'll say, oh, I gave it a couple of days that it didn't work. And so the response that I have for teachers is, if you go to the gym, the first day that you go to the gym, do you lose your desired weight? Wouldn't that be nice, right Albert, if I only had one day I go?

Albert:

Did you just call me fat?

Angela:

Definitely not. There's no shaming here. But if you don't lose your weight the first day you go, and that's the only chance I'm going to give myself, then I'd never work out. It's about going to the gym research says 21 days, right? I have to form a habit. I have to go consistently. And after 21 days I assess. You look at progress, are my clothes fitting better? Is the scale and the number going down? Does my face look slimmer? So you're looking at that progress piece because that makes us keep going. So when we're looking at that challenging behavior, we also have to think about where's our progress that we've made? Before, that kid was throwing a tantrum every day for 45 minutes. Now we're still throwing a fit every day, but now that fit is only 15 minutes. So we're making progress to wherever we're going instead of that complete elimination of the behavior. And that's the ultimate goal. That's what everybody wants. They want it just to go away, but really it's about progress, right?

Albert:

Absolutely. And you brought up a good thing as far as habits go, I think people think they have really good type procedures and they're doing things in a way that creates a habit. But when I have multiple different ways that I ask students to do things every single day, I end up never creating a habit. What I end up is creating a menu of potential options for kids. For example, I have two examples, I have elementary example and a secondary example. Elementary example, lining up, the bane of every teacher's existence is getting kids to line up.

Angela:

Yes, I was there yesterday and it took them about nine minutes to line up.

Albert:

Part of that challenge is we have kids line up a different way every single day. Because we want kids to all feel special, we have a line leader, we have a caboose, we have a light flicker, we have a door holder, we have a different process every day. Well, if I change the process every day, then I'm never going to have a consistent habit that's developed. So if you want kids to be able to line up, the first day of school, everybody lines up the second day of school, everybody lines up the exact same way they did the first day of school. So Angela, your head is in front of me, I'm looking at the back of your head for the entire school year. So I'm always standing behind Angela. I will learn how to line up within the first week of school if I'm lining up the same way every single day.

Angela:

But Albert, I want to be the line leader. That's what I hear teachers say, well other kids want to be in the front of the line.

Albert:

You know what, Angela? Kids really don't care. Adults make it an issue. That's why kids care about it. I will tell you, bless my mom's heart, there are four of us kids and we were all four a year apart. So we used to fight to see who got to sit in the front seat of the car. So here was the rule, the oldest person in the car got to sit in the front seat, because one day you're going to be the oldest person in the front seat. But there was no arguing. So the oldest person in the car at that time was riding shotgun. And after that procedure was established, there was never arguments about it again because we just knew that was the rule. The rule was if you're the oldest person in the car, you got to ride in the front seat and eventually you're the oldest person. So it was never a big deal.

My secondary example is this. If I'm a secondary teacher, I'm a student at Region 13 middle school and I have seven teachers, and those seven teachers have seven different ways that they want me to turn in my homework, I will never learn how to successfully turn in my homework.

Angela:

So true.

Albert:

I make it too complicated. I make it too much thought process that goes into it. If I have one way that I'm turning my homework in to all seven classes, there's a really good likelihood by the second week of school I know how to turn my homework in and my homework gets turned in at a much higher completion rate than if I'm trying to follow seven different procedures. Imagine as an adult, you were a classroom teacher, imagine you having seven principals between your high school principal, and you were a large high school and multiple APs that all wanted lesson plans in a different way. So you had to write your lesson plan seven different ways to accommodate the needs of the seven different adults. How would that have worked for you?

Angela:

I would've been frustrated. I would've been overwhelmed and probably would've ended up disappointing somebody because there is no way that I could have handled that level of differentiation just for all of them. So yeah, I would be super frustrated.

Albert:

So think about that. Think about that, audience. When you are asking kids to do things, it's like, is this because the adults are wanting this or is this in the best interest of kids?

Angela:

So moving away from being teacher-centered to student-centered environment. So as I listen to this podcast, I'm thinking, if I am in a leader in that leadership role, FranklinCovey is probably some of the material from that Leader in Me, the Trust and Inspire, those are some things that I might need to latch onto to move forward. And if I'm a teacher listening to this podcast, having clear habits, predictable routines, procedures, expectations, kindness is key, of making sure that there's clear clarity and not taking things personal. Those are your takeaways from our time together. Is there anything else you feel like is important for our listeners to hear from you?

Albert:

I think that sums it up. I really appreciate you taking the time. I really appreciate you inviting me. It's always great to spend time with you and I look forward to our long term collaboration.

Angela:

You're my mentor for behavior, so it's always awesome to hear what you have to say and because I learn from you every time. So thank you very much for joining me, Albert.

Albert:

Thank you.

Angela:

Thanks for listening to, I've Tried Everything. Join me next week as we continue on our journey for behavior supports in schools. Remember to subscribe and you can always find great resources at Region 13's website. Just search behavior. Talk to you next time.

Angela:

Hello. Welcome back to I've Tried Everything, a podcast focusing on behavior supports in schools. I'm your host, Angela Eisenberg, project coordinator at Region 13. Every week I talk with educators just like you. We cover some tough topics, share stories and explore what works and what doesn't. Let's go.

I'm with Brittney. She works with high school students in Taylor ISD. So Brittney, tell me a little bit about the start of your school year. If you had to pick a song that sums up your first launch into education, what would that song be?

Brittney:

Oh, very good question. I think that the best song that would kind of summarize my very first month of teaching would be Through the Fire and the Flames by DragonForce for a couple reasons. First off, it's super fast paced and I feel like I have been running at that fast pace nonstop since day one. So it's also pretty intricate and there is a lot of detailing in it.

Again, as you're going into your first year, there has to be a lot of details in your day-to-day activities and your day-to-day scheduling and your plans. It's also super long. So I feel like this first six weeks has been about a year. Then lastly, of course through the fire and the flames we carry on and so that is exactly what I'm trying to do.

Angela:

So what hats do you wear at Taylor High School? What are the different things that you're involved in right now?

Brittney:

I am one of the biology teachers. There is two of us at Taylor High School. It's a pretty small school. We're only 4A. I also coach, so I am an assistant volleyball coach and an assistant softball coach. So I am pretty involved in all kind of aspects of the school.

Angela:

So let's put on our volleyball coach hat for just a second. So tell me about the relationships that you have built with your volleyball girls at this point in time.

Brittney:

Oh, it is just fantastic. I honestly look at them almost as my own kiddos. They are so much fun. They definitely all are very different. They're all very unique and I've had the privilege of getting to work with them for even longer than just the school year because we actually started volleyball about a month before school started. So it was nice because I was able to kind of build that relationship with them specifically earlier. A lot of those girls, I actually coached the freshman team to the JVB team, which most of them are freshmen and biology is a freshman course.

So a lot of those girls are actually in my classes as well, which makes it even better because I can kind of count on them and look to them as the leaders in the class.

Angela:

That's great.

Brittney:

So it has really, really helped and they can kind of help spread my expectations from the court to the classroom and keep everybody else on track. It's been wonderful. Yeah, I'm obsessed with my girls.

Angela:

So thinking about your class, let's put on your biology teacher hat. What is something that you've done in the classroom at this point to build relationships or build a class community?

Brittney:

For me especially, I think that it has been really helpful being really relatable. I am quite a bit older than most of my students, but at the same time I try to in a way be the cool teacher, I guess. So for example, we just actually had homecoming week last week and I made an effort to dress up every single day for homecoming. I took a lot of time out of class to go around, compliment everybody on their outfits, on their clothes and their mums that they had. Just kind of be a little bit more relatable to them in that way. Something that they could look to and feel like they're kind of a part of. Like we are one and the same.

Angela:

That's awesome.

Brittney:

That equality aspect. So I do that quite a lot. Then I just try really hard to do a lot of check-ins with all of my students and get to know a little bit about them on a personal level. I always start with the student survey at the beginning of the year. At least I did this year and that really worked out and I took quite a lot of time out of that first week to read them, and dissect them and kind of get a better understanding of some of the interests that my students have so that I can utilize that throughout the year in my class.

Angela:

Oh, I love that. So you're a part of our education certification program here at Region 13. Talk to me about the program. Has it been beneficial for you to be in Pam's group and Pamela Pate is one of our specialists that is in charge of helping interns. How has that program helped you?

Brittney:

Oh, Pam is just an absolute godsend honestly. She is incredible. She is so supportive. She is full of knowledge and one of my favorite things about being in this program specifically is that a lot of what we do is in person versus being virtual. Which I understand that that can be kind of difficult to manage when you have a full class day as well at your school. But having the ability and the chance to actually be one on one connected with other teachers that are in the exact same shoes as you, going through the exact same issues and not being forced to talk to them through a screen or over phone, but actually being in a room physically present with them kind of takes that to a different level and a deeper understanding. You have a deeper connection with them.

Honestly you can kind of vent it out knowing that whoever you're talking to is going through the exact same thing and maybe they have some insights. So Region 13, for me, that has been probably my favorite part about it. Not only that, but just the in depth detail that this program goes into to really help us strategize and make sure that we have everything we need to be successful as our first year.

A lot of other programs don't go into the depth and detail that Region 13 does. I know for me especially having that extra little bit of support and that extra depth has really made a difference for me in my classroom.

Angela:

If you had to think of one strategy tip that maybe you took away from one of the classes that Pam has done in the ECP program or something that you learned in a professional development at Taylor ISD, what is one tip that you feel like has been hands down one of the most beneficial things to put in place in your classroom?

Brittney:

Going into this year I didn't realize the extent of policies and procedures and how important it is to have extremely structured policies and procedures in place in your class. Because again, going into your first year of teaching, you don't have any experience with any of this. You have no idea what's going on, it's just chaos. So it's just things that you don't think about that this program has touched on.

For me, that was the level of structure and the level of planning it takes not only for your curriculum but also on classroom management and the strategies and policies that you'll have in place every day that is going to cause your class to run smoothly.

Angela:

Setting that foundation around classroom with policies and procedures is huge because that gives you something to move from. So I love that that's been something that's been a big takeaway for you. I always think about that as setting the structure of success in your class because the other things that you build on top of it, you have to have that so kids know how to enter your room, how to exit, what the process is whenever they're doing certain activities and things in your classroom. So that's big.

If you had to think about something that you wish you would have known before you walked in the classroom, what is something that you wish you would have known before you started teaching?

Brittney:

The biggest thing that I can think of is I didn't realize I would have to teach such the basics of the basics. Such as like you just mentioned entering or exiting a room. You would never guess that a student would not understand how to properly walk into a room. I legitimately have had kids running into my room and knocking the desks over, sliding into the roo like they were sliding into a baseball base. I wish I would've known that the expectation was not only to teach these kids curriculum, but also to teach these kids just how to act.

As a biology teacher, I teach freshmen, so these kids are 13 or 14 years old and my goodness do they act it. I definitely had a much higher expectation for their general behavior as humans. Not aliens or something crazy like they act like they are. But that would've been a little bit more helpful to know going into it. But again, Region 13 did a great job of preparing us for that, so.

Angela:

That's awesome. So thinking about that behavior, what has been maybe the most challenging for you behavior wise in the class?

Brittney:

For me, my classes are all very different. For example, my first period I teach an eight period day. My last period is athletics, so it doesn't really count. But my very first period, that class is so dramatically different than my seventh period that I could not even sit here and compare the two almost.

Whereas my middle periods four through sixth are very, very well behaved where they're zoned in best during the day. So trying to be super flexible and change my teaching strategy as well as change my behavior practices and method of implementing those throughout the day based on what class period I'm in, is really, really difficult. Especially somebody like me who I tend to be very structured. I don't adjust well to change. It's difficult for me to be that flexible and try to find ways to make that work best.

Angela:

I know exactly what you're talking about. I'm thinking about a year that I taught that I had a really challenging class period that it stood out different than my other classes. I really ended up having to completely rethink not only behavior management in that class, but curriculum in that class because they weren't able to do some of the cooperative learning things that the other classes could do because they just didn't have the behavior piece in place. So I'm just thinking of something simple like that if my classes were arranged in groups, the class before them would have to put the desks in rows and the class after them would have to put it back into groups because they just couldn't start or end the class period in groups. It just didn't work well.

So I think you're right. It's being able to have that flexibility to say, man this class is different and I have to do something different with them. But then how do you do that and how do you make sure that that still flows with all the other things that you're expected to do makes it so very challenging.

Brittney:

Yeah, it's impossible honestly. Relating to you, I have the exact same situation. My seventh period class is... I call it my controlled chaos. I have gone through every single teacher type, I guess you could say. The strict teacher, the fun teacher, the mean teacher, the all of it and I have yet to find one that works.

Angela:

I would say hang in there. One of the things that I think we're so quick to think is that okay, if I just do this for a couple of days, it's going to make a huge difference. Behavior change, if you think about it, takes time and we don't have that time. In education, it's like how fast can you get things done? So I would say stick with something, give yourself a little bit more time to be able to see whether or not that's going to pay off. Whether it is an approach that you do or something specific that you put into place. Research says three weeks and I know you're thinking, oh my god, three weeks. How would I do that? That's the thing with behavior. Am I making progress? It's not about complete elimination behavior, but is it getting better and how would I judge whether or not it's getting better?

What would that look like? Would it look like output of student performance? Would it look like I got through all the content that day, or I got through most of the content where before I was only getting through the very beginning of what I was doing? Now I'm almost to the point where I'm getting through everything that the other classes are doing. So however you judge progress, kind of think about that and then look at that from a holistic way instead of that behavior's still happening. I'm super frustrated. It might still be happening, but is it getting a little bit better?

Brittney:

Like I said earlier, I went through all the teacher types and I have kind of found one that seems to be resonating a little bit better with that class. I'm kind of going into week two of that teacher style to see if it continues. We are, at least with that class in particular, it takes double the amount of time to get through anything.

As you mentioned earlier with being flexible, a lot of the privileges that other classes have, they simply don't get because they can't. I tell them, I said, "Y'all can't handle it. So if we can't handle it, then we can't do it." So that class has to be a lot more structured and right now it's coming down to letting them be a little bit rowdier and allowing that to happen as long as the rowdiness is staying on topic. That seems to be right now what is resonating best and at least keeping them engaged on discussions. So that's kind of what I'm sticking to. We'll see what week two holds.

Angela:

Awesome. Well Brittney, I really appreciate you being with me and I wish the best of luck for you throughout this first year of education and good luck to your girls in volleyball. Hopefully you'll have a great season. So thank you so much. I appreciate everybody tuning in for I've Tried Everything and we'll see you next time.

Thanks for listening to I've Tried Everything. Join me next week as we continue on our journey for behavior supports in schools. Remember to subscribe and you can always find great resources at Region 13's website. Just search behavior. Talk to you next time.

Angela:

Hello, welcome back to I've Tried Everything, a podcast focusing on behavior supports in schools. I'm your host, Angela Eisenberg, project coordinator at Region 13. Every week I talk with educators just like you. We cover some tough topics, share stories, and explore what works and what doesn't. Let's go. I'm joined today by William from Deer Park Middle School in Round Rock ISD. William, I'm so glad that you're here with me today. He's a part of our education certification program here at Region 13. You're a new to the profession.

William:

Yes, I am. Thank you, Angela.

Angela:

If you had to choose a song to sum up your first month, six weeks of school, what would that song be?

William:

I would say it probably has to be I'm Still Standing by Elton John.

Angela:

I love that, I love that. I've heard everything from I Will Survive to Rise Up, so that's awesome. That's awesome. Thinking about your classroom and the importance of building relationships with students, what is a strategy or something that you've done, that you've put into place in your classroom that you feel like that has started that really strong relationship building?

William:

I would say that my first worry when entering the classroom was, do I know everybody's name? I feel like knowing the name has the power, and that was something I really tried to drive in the first week of school. My mentor on campus is the ECT, the early career teacher instructional coach, and she gave me some advice where she would always do her attendance with a photo of the student-

Angela:

Oh, that's a great idea.

William:

And their name. The teacher access center that Round Rock uses has a photo version of the attendance, and so I use that every single day so that I can recognize that student even when they're outside of my classroom, because I feel like it's much easier to redirect unwanted behavior or inappropriate behavior if you know the student's name.

Angela:

That is an excellent way to look at it. When you think about a student's name, or even our names, our names are very personal to us.

William:

Yes.

Angela:

It's so important that not only do we know their name, but we know how to pronounce their name and make them feel that welcome in that sense. I always did, in my classroom, the name game where we went through everybody like, "Hi, my name's Angela," and then the next person would say, "Hi, my name's William and that's Angela." Because for me, it's a huge repetition kind of thing. But, having those pictures and having that correlation so that when you see them in the hallway and you can build those connections with them outside of your classroom is a great way to put that foundation of relationships in your classroom. When you think about professional development, in our education certification program, you get tons of professional development that you get on nights and weekends and that sort of thing. Then, I know schools do professional development. Of all the situations that you've been in for learning, what would you say is one of the best strategies or tips that has been impactful for you in your classroom?

William:

I would say really just making sure that you take the time to teach the behavior expectations that you want your students to follow. The ones that we were provided with, the ones that we were having examples of from Region 13 were super important to me, but I use the five P's: polite, prepared, patient, responsible. I cannot remember them all because I'm on a podcast for the first time.

Angela:

That's okay.

William:

But, I do stand by them and I introduce them and I reintroduce them and I reteach as necessary. I really do hold the students accountable by taking the time to share what kind of behavior expectations I have in the classroom.

Angela:

Do you consider those your guidelines for success in your classroom?

William:

I would, yes.

Angela:

That they're kind of embedded in everything you do, how you put procedures in place, and that sort of thing in your class.

William:

Yes, and I do reinforce those guidelines for success through the CHAMPs program as well.

Angela:

Okay.

William:

I have that written on my whiteboard. I can erase whatever I need to, and then I will poll the class, what kind of activity would we consider to be a successful student model for this activity? I get to hear their responses. Like, should we be allowed to talk while we are doing independent work? Should we be allowed to talk when we're doing group work? It does vary depending on the scenario. Getting their input and their involvement into creating the expectations for that activity really makes me feel like it is a more equitable way to teach expectations and reinforce them.

Because of course, if somebody's going to have a silly answer, like we should be able to talk in a quiet reading session, most of the students are like, "Well that's not really fair to everybody else." It's kind of a self-responsible activity for them to understand. It helps me, because I feel like I'm having a classroom discussion with people and they're being very responsible, but we're also setting out classroom guidelines for an activity that I've planned and I want them to do because I spend time on it, it's for their benefit.

Angela:

I love that. CHAMPs you referenced, it's from Safe and Civil Schools, Dr. Randy Sprick.

William:

Yes.

Angela:

I am a CHAMPs-ette too, because I did CHAMPs on the classroom, I found it very beneficial. CHAMP stands for Conversation Help Activity Movement Participation. When we think about those activities in the classroom that we have, whether it's direct teach, guided practice, independent work, you kind of put those expectations through that CHAMPs acronym. Can the students talk? Who can they talk to? How loud can they talk?

William:

Absolutely.

Angela:

How do you ask for help? Do you say, "Mister," across the room and you're supposed to walk to them, or do they raise their hand? Really helps guide the students so that there is not a question of the expectations. I find that when you get into the middle school arena and kids are going to seven, eight different classes in one day, trying to figure out what is this teacher's expectations versus this teacher. When can I ask to go to the restroom? When am I allowed to talk and have just some opportunity to have dialogue and socialization with my peers? Having that in the classroom can be extremely beneficial for teachers, so I'm glad that you've established that for your student success. If you had to think about one burning issue that you have with behavior, something that is still plaguing your classroom management, what is one of those issues that you're facing right now?

William:

Yeah, I think it's a common issue as well that most teachers could empathize with, is I do have a problem with students trying to direct mean or hurtful chirps to other students, where if I am redirecting a behavior that is unwanted from a student and I do that, I have a student immediately follow up with, "Yeah, you shouldn't do that," or "yeah, serves you right." I have those conversations in the class, this is a golden rule. Do unto others what you want done to yourself. Do you understand that if you are adding to the negativity in the classroom by chirping out these statements where people are meant to feel bad because you're doing it, you're intentionally not bringing the mood up in the room. You're intentionally leaving the maturity level at a lower level in the room. That's something I'm still learning about how to address the best way. I'm not sure if that's a classroom thing, or something I need to talk to my other grade level teachers about in terms of reinforcing kindness in our classrooms more.

Angela:

Thinking about the pandemic and how the pandemic impacted education, we talk a lot about learning loss and about the amount of learning that students missed during that time. We haven't spent a lot of time talking about the behavior loss, that leadership and character development growth that they missed, and how to appropriately interact with others and what that's supposed to look like.

William:

Yes.

Angela:

Being able to know when to chime in and when not to, and that sort of thing is huge. One of the strategies that I've seen be successful in a classroom is doing restorative circles. There is a closing circle that I saw a video from Edutopia, and it's called Apology, Appreciation, or an Aha. The students can give an aha from their learning, they can apologize for any behavior that they might have had or anything in the classroom, or they can give an appreciation to somebody. It has an opportunity for students to own their behavior, but also appreciate things and it sets a different tone for their classroom.

William:

I really like that, yeah.

Angela:

The other strategy that I've seen is really going back to reinforcement systems of owning your behavior. As a class, if we've really paid attention to us and not what other people are doing, then it's like the ticket and the bucket, so it's that way to acknowledge the fact that we're not being engaged in that other piece. But, to take it to the next level, I saw this done at a secondary, and I've also seen it done in elementary, where students can put something in the appreciation jar. There's an appreciation jar. Instead of focusing on the negative behavior that kids are doing, students are going, "I just want to say I want to appreciate Angela for helping me clean up," or, "William helped me with a problem that I had and problem solved with me." It's an appreciation jar. Instead of any kind of a negative thing, it's more about how are we appreciating each other in the class.

William:

I could definitely see how that could reinforce positive behavior rather than the negatives. Yeah, you're focusing on the better things.

Angela:

We do what we get attention for.

William:

Absolutely.

Angela:

Some of our kids are even making some of those comments just to gain and garner some additional attention from others.

William:

Definitely.

Angela:

As we wrap up our time with you, William, I want you to think about your class as a whole, and think about what is one thing you wished you would've known before you stepped foot in the classroom?

William:

I wished I would've known how personally involved I am in the lives of these students when they come to my class day to day, because it really has just hit me like a freight train in terms of, I did not realize how personally involved I would become, in terms of how much I care about them learning in my classroom and the quality of the learning. I really thought coming into my classroom, whether or not they learn my class, I'll feel fine. It's just so much more of a personal responsibility than I felt. I hope that other people take that and understand that there are work-life boundaries, but when I'm at school, I'm there for the kids. I'm there for them to learn and have a positive experience in my classroom, and to also have a good role model to choose from.

Advocating for yourself in a respectful manner, but also just understanding that this is an adult in the room that will talk through problems or who you can tell, "Hey, I haven't eaten today. I really would appreciate if you had a snack for me," or, "do you mind really letting me use the restroom? I promise you I'm not trying to leave your class. It is an emergency." Just becoming more, I really care about them, and that's really surprised me. Of course, I knew I would care about the students I spend time with, but just having it happen in real time has just been an amazing experience.

Angela:

That's so awesome. It is a lot of weight on our shoulders as educators-

William:

Yes.

Angela:

Of that personal connection with students. I would always tell you, make sure you practice self care, because self care is extremely important. I know sometimes people are like, "Oh, self care." But, really it's so important to make sure that we are taking opportunities to fill our buckets too before we go back in the classroom the next day.

William:

Yes. I'm really thankful for that. I have a very supportive fiance who's also a teacher.

Angela:

Oh, that's awesome.

William:

She is very, very responsible towards work-life boundaries, where the point is I'm sending an email at 4:30, I'm already home and she's, "Are you sending an email at 4:30 PM outside of work?" She's been my rock.

Angela:

Oh, that's awesome. Well, William, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it.

William:

Thank you.

Angela:

Thanks for listening to I've Tried Everything. Join me next week as we continue on our journey for behavior supports in schools. Remember to subscribe, and you can always find great resources at Region 13's website. Just search behavior. Talk to you next time.

Angela Eisenberg:

Hello, welcome back to I've Tried Everything, a podcast focusing on behavior supports in schools. I'm your host, Angela Eisenberg, project coordinator at Region 13. Every week I talk with educators just like you. We cover some tough topics, share stories, and explore what works and what doesn't. Let's go.

I am very excited to be joined by my colleague, Monica Kurtz. Monica, you have a wealth of knowledge around behavior and your experiences, either in the classroom, behavior classrooms, or supporting campuses, districts in the world of behavior.

What is your underlying passion for behavior support?

Monica Kurtz:

I really, really love thinking about behavior. I think about my own behavior. I think about your behavior. I think about everyone's behavior. And I like studying it. I like to understand why people act the way that they do.

And so I feel like, when I can help a student or I can help a teacher help a student get ahold of their behavior, create more positive behavior habits in their lives, I feel like I'm contributing to their lifelong success. Which is awesome. It's really, really, really, really awesome.

Other academic content areas are also important, Sure. Math, everybody needs math. But if you don't have the skills to be able to be productive in a classroom, then you're not getting the math. You're not getting the ELA or whatever it is until you can manage yourself in that environment.

But the other thing that behavior does is allow us to be full participants in relationships with the people in our world, and not just a relationship with your significant other. We have relationships with everyone that we come in contact with, even if only lasts five minutes in the HEB line. I still have a relationship with this person.

So the more that I understand my behavior, the more self-aware I am about how I'm doing during the day, the things that are impacting me on this day versus the day before or the day after, the more productive and healthy and beneficial the relationships that I engage in can be.

Angela Eisenberg:

I know one of your areas of interest with behavior is trauma. So talk to me about how your learning and excitement began with how trauma has affected behavior.

Monica Kurtz:

I came from a strong program. I spent 15 years at this school for the deaf, supporting students who had an auditory impairment, but also additional issues going on around being, ID or any myriad of things. And we had a really successful behavior program going. We had a lot of admin support teachers, paras, super well trained. We had a very, very strong program.

And there came a day when we got a student from another country, like an orphanage or something, whose behavior was so different. It was so different, and it was so challenging for us. The things that we had used with other students for so long had no impact on this child. And that really was one of the first things that got me interested in how our background impacts how we behave.

And then, almost at the same time, I came here to the service center. I was part of the behavior support staff network that Albert Phelps ran at the time. And in that same time period he talked about ACEs, adverse childhood experiences. And we watched the movie Paper Tigers. And I can remember body memory when he brought up the slide of Adverse Childhood Experiences. There are 10 things on that list, and I could identify with eight of them.

Angela Eisenberg:

Oh, wow.

Monica Kurtz:

And I thought, oh my God, this is me. This is me on a piece of paper. This is me. And, wow. And so then I started reading and doing research on early childhood trauma specifically. And so it was both personal and professional simultaneously. The more I understand early childhood trauma, the more I understand myself. And the more I understand early childhood trauma, the greater my empathy for other people who are also struggling.

And we know from research that early childhood trauma is so prevalent, right? 67 to 70% of people that you interact with have had some kind of thing that they're dealing with from their childhood, or they are living it now. So that's where it started. Understanding how I behave, how I am impacted by my own trauma, and then extending that out and helping people understand.

This classroom behavior is not all about hating the teacher or hating the subject. There is a deeper reason for this behavior. And until we address that deeper reason, we're not going to be able to do anything.

Angela Eisenberg:

I have had the privilege of being a part of several of your trainings around trauma and behavior. And you have a really interesting slide that you developed, where it pairs the multi-tiered system of support tiers to Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. How did that visual kind of manifest for you, and how do you explain the importance of the tears versus Maslow?

Monica Kurtz:

I know just the picture you're talking about. Again, like I said before, I really love thinking about behavior. I spend an inordinate amount of time, and I know the very base of Maslow is like those basic human needs, and then there's safety and security above that.

And when I think about our tier three students, which is by the way, the only students I really work with. Some tier two, but mostly tier three. And don't even ask me about tier one. I have no idea.

When I think about the needs of the students that I work with specifically, if you imagine that pyramid sitting right next to Maslow, so you've got two pyramids side by side. If you take the RTI pyramid and you rotate it, so the tip is on the bottom, then your tier three students line up with your basic human needs, and your security and safety.

And I feel like that illustrates, really, where those students are. We cannot, as people, experience success and all of the things that come with being in a healthy relationship with achievement. We can't experience those until we are in an environment where we feel safe and secure. And that safety and security comes from, at the very most basic, meeting our needs. Making sure we have food and water and shelter. Then we can start to feel safe in the world.

And the more that I interact with students who are on the very tip of that tiered pyramid, the more that I understand that something is missing from the very basic bottom of the Maslow's hierarchy. A lot of the students that I work with have emotional disturbance. That kind of lends itself to insecurity. So we have to figure out ways to make sure that those first two levels of Maslow, ways that we can help our students have those before they're able to reach a level of achievement.

Angela Eisenberg:

I think about that, and I thought about that whenever I was dealing with the situation with my daughter, Grace. She was at the time going into her senior year. It was the very beginning of school.

Unfortunately, her schedule was not right. She was supposed to be in this one class first period, ended up in a completely different class that had certain number of computers and that sort of thing. So when she got in there, the first question out of the teacher's mind is, what are you doing in here? Why are you here? I only have this many computers. You need to find a way to get out.

She was like, I don't know. They told me to go follow my schedule. And so she went through the schedule change process, she put that in. And first days of school, first several weeks of school at a high school, you're just trying to make sure everybody has classes, right? So she wasn't a top priority.

But every day she walked in, first period of the day, why are you still here? You need to get out. Just kind of barraged of you're not welcome. It ended up Grace was like, "Mom, I don't even want to go to school. I don't know what to do. I feel so hated by this teacher because the schedule was wrong and it's not my fault."

So I ended up, me being the parent that I am, I email the counselor. And I email their academic dean and say, "Grace has trauma. She has several indicators from that adverse childhood experiences." And I said, "Grace is sitting with a couple of trauma components." But I said, we've really worked on resiliency with her. I'm guessing that there are other kids in the classroom that might not have that level. And they're being so unwelcomed when they come in, and that's that safety and security.

And I said, so if she's experiencing this, how might those other kids feel that are also experiencing that, and could have more ACEs than Grace does? And I mean, of course, as soon as this campus found out this was happening, they got that schedule changed. But that shouldn't have to take place.

Monica Kurtz:

No, it shouldn't. It should be incumbent upon all of us to behave like decent human beings. And, sorry, but I'm a little bit fired up for Grace now. Being the person that I am, I understand that teacher's level of stress on the first day of school or the first week of school, I get it. However, there's no call to be ugly to another person. Not a student, not a child, not a whatever. To another person, another human being in your environment. There is no need. There is no need.

And what an unwelcoming environment. So when we talk about basic human needs, that safety and security was completely missing from Grace's first period experience. And if you're going to get all head up about something, let's talk to the people who make the schedules.

Angela Eisenberg:

So I live by the idea that if you knew better, you'd do better for sure. I don't think that teacher had an evil plan to thwart anybody. I think if she knew better, she'd do better. Let's put that lay person to the test.

If you could go out there to any new teacher in the profession, or a teacher in the profession that didn't understand trauma and how trauma impacts student behavior, what would be some of the tools that you would recommend to be trauma-informed?

Monica Kurtz:

The single greatest powerful tool that we have, that we can offer our students, is the gift of a healthy relationship. I can't stress how important having just one healthy relationship is in the life of a child. And I'm at an age where I mean anybody under the age of 18. But when we talk about early childhood trauma, we are talking up to the age of 18, and that has to do with brain development. So when I say child, I still mean high schooler, right?

So, a healthy relationship. Everybody, everybody needs somebody who thinks they can do no wrong. When I think about it in terms of my own family, I'm that aunt. My nieces and nephews are perfect.

Angela Eisenberg:

Of course they are.

Monica Kurtz:

They are perfect. They are perfect in a way that I know inside is probably unrealistic. Because no one's perfect. However, I'm that person in their lives. I'm the person who thinks everything you do, every piece of artwork, every school play, every STEM rocket that you build, I think all of those things are the most wonderful things that have ever happened on the planet.

I'm not here to be their disciplinarians, much to their mother's chagrin. I think they're amazing, and everybody needs somebody like that in their lives. And so that's the first step, is creating a healthy relationship. The thing though, about the student who most needs that healthy relationship is that they are the hardest ones to create relationship with. Because they don't have any skills. Because their idea of what a healthy relationship is comes from a place of chaos and trauma.

So as the adult in this situation, if I see that there's something going on with young Angela and I want to create or begin the foundations of a relationship, I'm the one who has to keep on going back. Because even though that student, subconsciously they know that they need this relationship as much as they need their next breath, they have no idea how to get it. They have no idea how to hold onto it.

We talk about a lot on the behavior team about how desire urges me on and fear bridles me, from one of our favorite books. That's the same thing that your student from trauma is going through. They want a relationship with you as a healthy adult. They're also terrified of it. I think that's really, really important for grownups to recognize.

And if you think about it, if you have your own trauma history, you probably know what that feels like. I want to have this healthy relationship with whomever, and I don't know how to get it. I am behaving in a way that is sort of self-sabotaging this relationship. So for our students, we are the ones who have to go back again and again and again to make those overtures, to build that healthy relationship.

Angela Eisenberg:

You said something profound when we were talking about relationships. You said when a student comes up to you and they don't know who you are, but all of a sudden they want to hug you, or sit on your lap, or be your best friend, that's not normal.

Monica Kurtz:

Right, right.

Angela Eisenberg:

That's not a normal behavior. My children don't just run up to strangers and go, oh my gosh, you're like the bestie. And let's, all of a sudden I want to hold your hand or give me a hug kind of thing. I can remember talking to my own children about, you don't have to give everybody a hug. I didn't force them to even give family members a hug if they didn't want to give a hug. Again, that's not a normal behavior. So could that be a trauma response?

Monica Kurtz:

So I don't want to say unequivocally that is not healthy, because certainly some children are friendlier than others. And that is totally fine. We are all different.

However, it always raises a red flag in me when I as a stranger walk into a classroom and a student is running up, wants to engage right away, can't stop looking at me, wants me involved in all of the things that they're doing. This is a red flag. Because while I am super cool, you don't know me. There should be a level of skepticism that is natural.

Angela Eisenberg:

Like stranger danger, stranger danger.

Monica Kurtz:

Right. But it almost feels like that the student who does that is trying to sort of reverse or negate a potentially negative experience. A stranger is in the classroom. So in order to make sure that that stranger is safe, I'm going to ingratiate myself. I am going to be as cute as possible, and this is all subconscious. I'm going to be as loving as possible. I'm going to be as friendly as possible, so that I know that that person doesn't present a threat.

So again, if I go into a classroom ... And the other thing is, I do have blue hair. So I am really, really popular, particularly in elementary school because I've got blue hair. And everybody in second grade would like to have blue hair. It's fine. But there'll be somebody who wants to immediately crawl in my lap and snuggle.

And yeah, I'm totally trustworthy, but they don't know that. And they are acting in a way that is very unsafe.

Angela Eisenberg:

How does predictability, consistency play a role in being trauma informed?

Monica Kurtz:

Gosh. So I'm just going to say this for the people in the back. Everybody, everybody, whether you have trauma or not, all of us crave predictability and consistency. And if you want to argue, show me your iPhone, show me your Android that doesn't have a scheduling app. Show me your outlook. My entire month is scheduled to within an inch of my life because I want to know what's happening to me.

When we create an environment with consistency and predictability, we are creating a safe environment. Where everyone knows the expectations, everybody knows how to be successful, and everybody knows when you are on the edge of not being successful, if you get what I mean.

For our students who are dealing with trauma, who are coming from chaos, surprises and lack of consistency are scary. If there's so much in your world that is undependable, that is inconsistent, that is here today gone tomorrow, whether it's a parent or a guardian, whether it is shelter that is on this couch or that couch, whether it is if there's going to be dinner or not, that level of inconsistency is scary.

So in our classrooms, if we can create a predictable, consistent environment, we will be helping our students begin to regulate their nervous systems.

Angela Eisenberg:

You have also talked in some of your trainings about how behavior manifests with trauma in correlation to how behavior manifests with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, ADHD.

So how sometimes might we mistake something as being an ADHD behavior when it could potentially be ... Now, I mean obviously we're not doctors.

Monica Kurtz:

Right.

Angela Eisenberg:

But how might some of those behaviors manifest and make us think it's one over the other?

Monica Kurtz:

Again, not a doctor, can't do anything about it. But I recognize it when I see it kind of thing. And oftentimes students who have dealt with trauma are ADHD. A lot of times they are co-occurring. This is what keeps me up at night. Remember I said I think entirely too much about behavior.

If I'm working with a student who is presenting what looks like to me, ADHD, but really the problem is trauma. If that student goes to the doctor and the doctor gives them some kind of medication for ADHD, that's cool. But if the root of the problem is trauma, and we're not addressing that sort of societally, I'm not a social worker, I'm a teacher. Got it.

But if as a society we are not acknowledging that Risperdal or whatever you use to treat ADHD is great, unless the problem is I'm hungry. If the problem is I don't have a bed, or I don't have a consistent way to be taken care of, or I don't have a consistent caregiver, or I am being abused in any way, then ADHD medication's not going to make a difference to get to the root of the problem.

And I say this with hesitation, because I don't want people in schools to think that they're responsible for every single thing. I feel like educators and schools have way too much responsibility for what should be societal. But in the absence we are leaning on schools a great deal. So I think it's just something to be mindful of.

Angela Eisenberg:

Yeah, I always talk to educators, especially teachers around, we can't control student behavior, right?

Monica Kurtz:

Right.

Angela Eisenberg:

We have the power to control our environment, which goes back to that consistency, that predictability. Those things I have the power to control. I know that every day students enter the classroom this certain way. I pick up papers this way, I put things in Google Classroom. It's a level of predictability and consistency.

Monica Kurtz:

Some simple things that we can do in classrooms. Teachers like to wander. I know I'm a big believer in wandering around the classroom during instruction. Because wandering keeps people on their toes. Proximity is a really great classroom management tool.

But for your students, again, coming from trauma, living in chaos, that wander can be terrifying. The unknown, or being approached from behind even for example. And so it could be as simple as, because I don't want you to stop wandering. But it could be as simple as, everyone start on problem number one. I'm going to walk around and make sure everybody's doing okay.

Angela Eisenberg:

So that knowing what they're doing in the classroom.

Monica Kurtz:

Knowing what's happening. Why are you walking around like that? I would be wary of personal touch, right? So even a tap on the shoulder can be terrifying. So you need to be really, really judicious with the way that you are interacting with your students.

If you want to pat them on the shoulder, that they know that that's going to happen. I always ask, is it okay if I tap your shoulder this way to get your attention? So that there's some expectation that that might happen.

I also would encourage teachers and all school staff to find ways for your students to experience success. A lot of times we think about in schools, success is academic. And maybe that's not going to be possible right now, but everybody needs to be good at something. And so I like to think of our jobs in part as being mirrors, of reflecting back the goodness inside the student right back at them, and helping them find some level of success.

Because again, if you're working with students who are experiencing hardship outside your classroom, they don't need you to point out their failings. I promise you, somebody else in the world's already doing that. I promise. So you can take that off your plate. Take that right off your plate. It would be far more beneficial for your student, for you to spend that same amount of time finding the positive thing.

If it's greeting people at the door, if it is doing school announcements, if it is at a younger level, if it's the person who passes out the pencil, something where a student can experience success. Because the rest of the world is already telling them how epically bad they are, we don't also need to do that.

Angela Eisenberg:

So very true. If I wanted to learn more about trauma, what are some things, resources that you would point people in the direction to?

Monica Kurtz:

Wow, there's a lot I like to read about trauma and some of my go-tos are Dr. Bessel van der Kolk. He wrote The Body Keeps The Score back in like 2015, 2016. It's still a really relevant piece of work.

Anything by Heather Forbes. So Bessel van der Kolk writes from a more medical perspective about trauma, where Heather Forbes writes about it in the schoolhouse. How to promote resiliency in the Schoolhouse. So her work is really good.

A book that's not too old by Dr. Bruce Perry and Oprah Winfrey is called, What Happened To You? And that is an amazing conversation. So good.

But there's also websites you can go to. So there's the National Childhood Traumatic Stress Network. You could go to the Castle Network, the Collaborative for Academic and Social Emotional Learning. They have some really great resources. Edutopia has some really great stuff on trauma. Harvard University also has some really great stuff on trauma, if that's your thing.

Angela Eisenberg:

Wow. Sounds like there's a lot of resources out there. But knowing too, people could within Region 13 or even outside of Region 13, can always pick up the phone or shoot you an email and say, hey, help me out with trauma.

Monica Kurtz:

Oh, yeah.

Angela Eisenberg:

So thank you Monica. I really appreciate you being with me today for I've Tried Everything. Because sometimes when you're dealing with trauma, you've tried everything.

Monica Kurtz:

Yeah, yeah.

Angela Eisenberg:

You have to keep going back to it. So I really appreciate you being my guest today.

Monica Kurtz:

Absolutely.

Angela Eisenberg:

I can't wait to have you back.

Monica Kurtz:

Thanks for having me.

Angela Eisenberg:

Thanks for listening to, I've tried Everything. Join me next week as we continue on our journey for behavior supports in schools. Remember to subscribe, and you can always find great resources at Region 13's website, just search behavior. Talk to you next time.